Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / The Human Factor w/ Satyam Kantamneni

Transcript

The Human Factor w/ Satyam Kantamneni · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:01
Welcome it, Change Makers to the Deck Show with Tim Flower and Tom McGraw.
0:06
Let's get into it. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the Deck Show.
0:12
Tim. I always feel like I'm welcoming you back from some round the
0:15
world trip. Like I just feel like, yeah, you're rarely on the
0:17
show. You're always in the air and when you are on, Michelle,
0:20
I'm like, welcome back, where have you been? And we got to
0:23
work out the we have to work out the remote, the remote join from
0:27
from the airplane. I think yeah. And we mentioned in one of the
0:30
other shows, Tom the grandfather's status. My age is showing after a five
0:35
week business trip, it's an eleven traversing eleven time zones. I'm I'm kind
0:42
of feeling it right now. But yeah, it's great to be back with
0:45
you. Bud. Absolutely, mate, great see you, And I'm gonna
0:47
welcoming welcoming. I'm going to welcome you back with a test with a test.
0:52
And this is relevant to our guests. We're going to get to momentarily
0:56
because we are sort of we are sort of celebrating this month. We had
1:00
our show in Boston where we spoke about this, the launch of the next
1:03
Think Deck certifications which people can find and take on the on the on the
1:10
Deck show. Dex Hub Mothership will have links below five modules and I look,
1:17
tim, have you have you done one yet? Have you sat a
1:19
module? I mean you have all people, don't You don't get no judgment
1:23
question? No, those are the last episode we I professed what got a
1:27
great thing? It was to go get certified? So you're calling me on,
1:30
I have to go get certified? Come on you are you have all
1:34
people? You're gonna sell through them? Or? Will you? Or will
1:37
you? That's the that's the question. So here's a question. I got
1:40
a question for you, man. This is a question that stumped me a
1:44
couple of times. This is from module one setting a dex baseline, Okay,
1:49
and the question is it you get one one answer here? It collects
1:53
hard metrics and employee sentiment data over a defined period of time. Does this
1:59
mean they have established a DEX baseline for the company the hero of the options.
2:05
Yes, because they've collected both hard metrics and employer sentiment over a defined
2:08
period of time. No, because the subset is too small to clearly to
2:14
collect to classify as a DEX baseline. Sorry, free No, because the
2:20
data was not benchmarked against other companies. For yes, because it is provided
2:24
with standard devices and experiences can be extended to the entire organization. You got
2:31
THU, Yeah, I do so. The last one is clearly false.
2:36
Um, yeah, I would. I would go with yeah, I would
2:39
go with one of the and I don't think the false one, the one
2:44
that's not a big enough sample size is correct. I would say yes because
2:47
they've collected sentiment and device metrics. May I'm sorry it was it was answered
2:55
too. And but look, look you did fail, you haven't failed the
3:00
whole certification. Don't take it too badly, and look for the record.
3:05
This one stumped me. It stumped me so badly. That's why I chose
3:07
it feared him. I spent. You've got to do when you're taking the
3:10
certification, you have to go back to the beginning where you don't get it.
3:15
And look, but look, everybody who's listening you. If you haven't
3:17
already registered for the certifications, we have hundreds of people, hundreds of students
3:23
in the in the Deck Academy, in the in the DEX Certification Academy,
3:28
and please do join them. They're absolutely free to take they're good fun.
3:31
They're tricky, they're challenging, and they're meaningful. It's totally relevant to our
3:37
guest, actually, who for reasonably amusing reasons, he's probably guessed himself.
3:43
Um, he's such a contamanium. He is a such a is an author,
3:50
he's an innovator, he's an expert in um in in user experience in
3:55
B to B software. Such a welcome to the show. Great to have
3:59
you here, Thank you, arm and damn. Yeah, it's a privilege
4:02
being here. And we spoke before and what was interesting, what stood out
4:06
actually was if one of your principles that you kind of stand by is that
4:14
if somebody is um, if a B to B software requires training, it's
4:19
kind of doing something wrong. Though the user experience should be so seamless that
4:24
it shouldn't require certification. Now, let me add a caveat vin to the
4:29
deck. Certifications they are not product. They are not there to teach about
4:32
the product, there to teach you, to teach you about the space the
4:35
growing space of digital employee experience. Is that a little different? Such is
4:41
that? Is that is that exempt from your clarification? Absolutely? Absolutely,
4:46
yes, absolutely. Maybe let's let's let's start with a story here, and
4:53
I think it'll probably help understand a little bit more. When I studied I
4:57
studied something called human factors engineting. This is when I was back in grad
5:00
school. And one day I, you know, there was a problem that
5:05
was given to us and said, how would you know people interact with a
5:09
particular system, because it's an intersection of how humans are factored into complex systems
5:14
or technologies. And I'm like, that's common sense, Like why would you
5:18
not do it that? But that's common sense? And uh. And something
5:21
that my professor at that point said, which also started my career at a
5:26
large level, was it's not what's common for you is not common for everyone
5:30
else. What would be common for a grandmother is not common for a two
5:33
year old kid. What's common for a new into a school person versus somebody
5:39
who's kind of you know, done a PhD. It's not common. And
5:43
I think the pursuit of what is common is actually what is basically the sense
5:47
of the whole line of work. Now why I say that is if you
5:53
know who what is common for your user and you build it for them,
5:56
you don't how to certify them. And especially for a product if it's built
6:00
for someone. If they don't, if you build something that's uncommon for them,
6:04
then you're certifying them. And that's kind of the So the whole pursuit
6:09
of building systems that are good user experience means that you understand the user and
6:14
you are kind of going along with their experience. And I think that's their
6:18
sense of it. But yes, I think when I say companies that have
6:23
to certify, that means they don't understand the user and they and they are
6:26
trying to explain to them bas what is uncommon for that user but common for
6:30
the one who designed it or built it. And now you're trying to get
6:34
to those two worlds to meet and that's why you're trying to certify or train
6:38
or exit and all the other investments that go into it. And obviously you're
6:44
also you're a managing partner UX Reactor and one of the reasons we're keen to
6:49
get you into the shows because your area of expertise is you just sort of
6:54
helpfully began to articulate. It shines a light on an area which is so
7:00
supremely interesting to us. And next thing, con that's the whole concept of
7:03
experience at large right, coming at it from a very different angle, and
7:09
yet one that kind of penetrates our own right because we do make b to
7:13
be software that specializes there. I mean, I wonder if we could maybe
7:16
begin such about just hearing your thoughts on experience as a concept and it's significance
7:24
in today's digital economy and tech space. Absolutely so. First off, if
7:32
anyone ever has an experience with anywhere, right, you go to a hotel,
7:35
you got a restaurant, you go to an airline or whatever, like
7:40
a product, it doesn't happen suendipitously. Someone actually is thinking through it and
7:46
designing that, right, whether that's a check in experience or a great guest
7:49
experience at a restaurant. And when you start looking at that, like,
7:54
hey, experiences don't just happen. They're designed by someone. They're thought through
7:58
by someone. And so when you start extrapolating it to the over digitizing world,
8:03
I mean, just think about it. I mean, so much money
8:07
investment has gone into building digital systems, and especially with the pandemic, everything
8:11
is now digital, or at least has been put up in the four But
8:16
what is an experience? I mean, I'll probably take a step back and
8:20
share that and it'll come back. Any event or occurrence that leads an impression
8:22
is an experience, right. And in the toptware world, not many people
8:28
are spending the time thinking about that. They're very much are like, Okay,
8:33
you're going to do it on paper, I'm going to put it on
8:35
a digital form. But is that the best experience? Having no form is
8:39
the best experience, right? And those are the ways someone has to spend
8:43
the time thinking through that. In an organization and in the world where we
8:46
are trying to add features and functionalities and elements, we have stopped thinking about
8:52
what's common for that other person, and we actually don't even know what another
8:56
person is. In fact, as you start looking at more so the technology
9:00
world, most development of building of the product itself is happening in a distributed
9:07
manner where the user or what the person that you're building it for is not
9:13
as understood. If there's somebody who's like setting half around the world or like
9:16
in some other part of the world and then just taking requirements and building it,
9:18
which is why experience kind of starts becoming a casualty. On the flip
9:24
side, companies that figure it out are like nailing it. They're killing it
9:26
in terms of experiences and everything. And I still say that, you know
9:31
one thing that Apple does really well. It understands, it uses, and
9:35
it tries to build more and more common products and common services around them.
9:39
And there's no that's the secret of becoming the most valuable company in the world.
9:43
And many other companies. I say this, you know with all you
9:46
know, Samsung makes everything that Apple does and makes more. It makes fridges,
9:50
it makes TVs. But Samsung is a tenth of the market cap of
9:58
Apple. Samsung the last time I checked was our two hundred and forty billion,
10:01
and Apple that's two point four trillion. So and that's kind of where
10:05
you start realizing that experiences are where people will stick, they will sell,
10:07
they will buy, and which is what I think B to B software still
10:11
haven't gotten or understood, which is why I made that might pursuit you often
10:16
hit Tesla kind of underscored in this kind of context as well as a great
10:20
example absolutely experiences above products or as part of a product, you know and
10:28
and talk to us such I'm about your own. You already alluded to your
10:33
specific educational background, which I think fed into this, but what was your
10:37
own path through to becoming a sort of expert in this field and space.
10:43
I speak about my book too, but at the highest level is I believe
10:48
in the philosophy of multidisciplinary ness. I all being a polymat so I studied
10:54
engineering, then I studied human centered design, then I studied the business and
11:01
and I played different roles. I played the engineer role, the design role,
11:03
the man, the leadership role, the business guy role. And then
11:07
I realized that the best comes out when you actually had a cusp of understanding
11:11
a lot of other things, and when you kind of bring all those things
11:15
together, that's when you truly start appreciating what you're doing. You just can't
11:18
be one and not be effective, which is why today at my firm,
11:22
we have twenty two different educational disciplines and all of them coming together to kind
11:26
of solve, you know, real good design problems. But that's kind of
11:28
the background overall. I when I started this, there was no profession of
11:33
user experience. I mean, I started my career during the dot com bust,
11:37
where everybody who could build a website was a designer and building you know,
11:41
so once forth, but as systems became more and more, you know,
11:45
pervasive, and systems became more and more like you're doing everything today.
11:48
I'm like, oh, you're doing eHealth on digital systems, you're doing banking
11:52
on digital systems, you are educational digital systems. I mean, there's just
11:56
so much going on right now, and I think to day the world needs
12:01
a lot more of somebody who kind of thinks about the experience and designs it
12:05
right and then makes that process work and more efficient manner. So that's kind
12:09
of how the last decade has kind of evolved. And obviously with the advent
12:16
of the iPad and the Apple, I mean, the consumerization of systems became
12:20
very, very aggressive. So again for us, I think that's how the
12:24
line of work and my line of you know, so I first got discovered.
12:28
I first discovered this line of work. It was only military that used
12:31
to do a lot of the human factors work, and then with the whole
12:35
advent of technology and consumerization, it kind of became more common, and most
12:39
companies today, I would say, of any repute in the software world have
12:46
a pretty sizeable user experience team that's thinking through it. But again it's an
12:50
adolescence, so I would still think that you know, nine out of ten
12:54
of them still are struggling their way to make a business driver versus a business
12:58
supporter, you know. Set going back to some of your earlier comments,
13:05
just anecdotally, we just here at next Think rolled out a platform for training
13:09
and certifying our sales folks in sales enablement, and we chose this product because
13:16
of their intentional design on the experience of using their product. They modeled it
13:22
after their interface, their workflow, everything you do in the user interface is
13:28
modeled after YouTube. So they thought in the kind of the context of the
13:35
users of their software in a way that we don't now have to train them
13:39
on it. They know how to use it. It's intuitive. We don't
13:43
need to certify them. We turn it on, we give them a brief
13:46
tour, and they already know it. And it really shows the intentional design.
13:50
I contrast that with my twenty five or thirty years in enterprise it where
13:58
we did not intentionally think about user experience. We deployed software as we were
14:03
requested to, and then the PC just becomes a collection of software. There's
14:07
no intentional design to how they interact with different applications, and it's just that
14:13
the contrast between those two things is striking absolutely absolutely, see again the one
14:22
data set that you also it's a very data center driven profession, right,
14:24
So one of the data sets for YouTube is you went there to watch one,
14:28
VIDIA ended up watching ten. And if that same behavior is replicated in
14:31
the in the sales training side, then actually you nailed it right and the
14:35
experience obviously, So obviously experience has differently is to it. There's how the
14:41
UI side, the workflow side, and then obviously how you kind of think
14:43
and talk in a way that people can go completely understand it. But yeah,
14:48
absolutely, I think giving people what they expect when they expect it as
14:52
kind of one big part of you know, driving a great experience. And
14:56
this is why I was really interested to talk to you today. You know,
14:58
in the the concept or the space of digital employee experience is not that
15:05
old. But I think when when it thinks about that concept they consider a
15:11
good employee experience is just not breaking it right. The applications work as they're
15:18
supposed to. It doesn't roll out a patch that causes a blue screen or
15:22
a slowdown. But it's bigger than that, right, what's the dynamic between
15:28
the technology and the experience of employees. Does tech just need to work error
15:33
free? Or talk about how it's kind of bigger than that. So I'll
15:39
share with you the philosophy that I work with and the philosophy and which also
15:46
my extents to my FIRMB. We say, we start with the user,
15:50
we understand what the journey and the experience is, then we design it,
15:54
and then we think about technology. And technology is the last thing in the
15:58
equation that you're bringing together, and that always is something that it takes time,
16:03
but you know, you don't throw technology at a problem. Now,
16:07
talking about employee experience, it actually starts way before they actually even become an
16:14
employee, right. It starts from the point that they're looking for a job
16:18
or the first time they hear about a company. That digital experience starts there.
16:22
They apply for a role, they interview, they go through a process,
16:26
they kind of get accepted. They then get get a job. Then
16:29
they pick their hardware or whatever that is. Then they actually get to familiarize
16:33
with their teammates, they start their process. It's the same. That journey
16:37
that they go through is all employee experience, and today, in most times
16:41
it's very disjointed because the manager is one part of that touch point. Your
16:45
it is another part of that touch point. Your interviewers is another part of
16:49
it. I'm just giving the first part of the journey, right, and
16:52
then you're engaging and you're collaborating and so on, so of footh So that's
16:56
the all of that as not Actually if there's one single person that can state
17:00
that in a company, absolutely I think that company is very aligned. But
17:04
it's always the disjointed thing and I always and one of the worst cases of
17:08
experience design is when you ship your arc structure to the user or the person
17:12
that's experiencing it. We're like, oh, that's that department or that's that
17:17
process, or that's that thing, and then we will you know, legal
17:18
will get back to you. And I think that's bad experience every time you
17:22
kind of are not getting what you want it at the time you want it
17:26
in your mental model, I mean, not in terms of any other thing.
17:30
So that's where it starts getting broken more and more so. Actually,
17:33
if you ask me, a digital employee experience is is front and center,
17:37
starts way before they actually become an employee. And then the other thing is
17:41
tools. I mean one of the things as B to B when we work
17:45
on in that side, A lot of the tools we build is for the
17:48
internal team that are building and working on and delivering the value. And that's
17:53
always like again back to that thing, or we can train them on that
17:56
because they are captive audience. You don't train anyone on anything. I mean,
18:00
you need to give people what they are. And again today, especially
18:03
in a tight market with a lot of the talent, you can't you don't
18:07
can't effort, you know, sitting and spending three months training someone on a
18:11
product or a system. Which is why I think it's the more you think
18:15
about it, the more effective it is. And then obviously everything here,
18:18
loyalty goes up and people have great experience, efficiency goes up when they actually
18:22
are doing what they can do in a vast manner. And I just think
18:26
it's an area of huge, huge opportunity. Yes, I think we can
18:30
agree that there's an intersection between a designed experience and a product design. We've
18:40
all worked with those apps that we would say aren't very intuitive. You know,
18:44
it's clumsy, it doesn't work well, but you say, well,
18:47
it's not very intuitive. But I think that's maybe being too kind to the
18:49
apps. It's more than just being intuitive. It's got to be intentionally designed.
18:55
Do you think there's and I even maybe I don't. Maybe it's not
18:59
even question of whether or not you think there is. Why do you think
19:03
there is a lack of appreciation on the design side still in some spaces to
19:07
that fundamental need to be to have intentional design? Why why do some apps
19:11
do it really well and other people just other apps just don't get it.
19:18
I actually blame that back to our profession too. Right, So, if
19:22
you know, if somebody wants, if somebody wants to build a very deliberate
19:29
experience, they need somebody who can also design that. And I think one
19:33
of the biggest I would say challenges with this line of work is that the
19:40
word design convolutes it a lot, and design automatically everyone thinks is like,
19:45
oh I need pretty screens, I need you know, it needs to look
19:48
good, and and so you're kind of starting to focus on like, hey,
19:52
I want to really no one focus. They say Apple's UI is good,
19:56
but no one thinks that Apple is actually a slim phone. And there's
19:59
so many engineers that made that experience that it feels great in your hand,
20:02
that the experience is transcends so many areas, and when everyone throws ui like
20:07
at it, and so they make it pretty, they want to do it
20:10
that way. But honestly, I think it's like any bottle of you know,
20:15
wine. It may look great. It may it may from outside.
20:18
When you drink it, you don't like it, You're not going to buy
20:19
it again. But it may not look great, but you may drink it
20:22
and then you want it again and again, and that just becomes its own
20:26
favorite. The same applies here, I would say, to a large extent,
20:30
a lot of the companies won't go and apply the design part. They
20:33
don't understand that. To do that, you really need to kind of go
20:37
focus on the user, understand them, and further percolate that in your organization,
20:41
because just one person understanding it doesn't help anyone everybody in your organization.
20:45
I say this to any leader that comes to me said, I'm investing so
20:49
much in design and I'm not getting anywhere. I say, go ask these
20:52
four questions to five people in your company randomly. Who's your top user,
20:57
what are the top pain points, what are they doing about it? And
21:02
how do they know they have solid it when they have done something about it,
21:03
and then you will realize that first of all, your answers will be
21:07
all over the place and most times, and then also you will start saying
21:11
that most people don't can't really articulate that well in a concise manner, and
21:15
that leans that you are not user centric, you don't understand the user.
21:18
And so whatever you do after that, you build systems, buy systems,
21:22
you're all going to kind of go in the wrong direction. It. People
21:26
are traditionally techies, right, and when they hear the word design, it's
21:32
what's my communication protocol to integrate with this other system? How do I adjust
21:36
the data? Where does this check box? How do I connect the function
21:40
to the box? It's the technical workings, And I don't think that we've
21:44
really paid enough attention to that intentional design of the experience versus the intentional design
21:51
of the functionality. It has to work, and it has to work error
21:55
free, but it could be very horrible, very horrible experience. What in
21:57
your background, your experience, have you seen other than the apples of the
22:03
world, the and the Tesla's who does it really well? Can they?
22:07
What's an example of someone who's got a great digital experience great usability and great
22:12
workflow and technical design. Can you really can they all be implemented in harmony?
22:18
And who's done it well? I think it takes. I mean,
22:22
they are companies that are doing it well. And the point is that's the
22:26
reason why the apples and the teslas and the airbnbs come to the four and
22:32
you see a lot of them, right, So these are all but doing
22:36
all of them in sequence and doing it right takes a system. And have
22:40
companies been able to perfect that system? I think that's kind of the foundational
22:45
problem night. Some people actually are really good at building a product, but
22:52
then they don't have the service experience around that really well thought out. Some
22:56
people are good at, you know, understanding the user needs, but they
23:00
don't have the experimentation framework of it, trating with users and collaboratively doing that
23:03
as well thought out, you know. And I think that's kind of where
23:07
you start seeing that it's the system itself doesn't come together, which is also
23:11
back to your previous question. Many companies don't realize that, you know,
23:15
it's actually a multivariate problem. It actually needs its own leader, right.
23:18
Many companies have a chief marketing officer, don't have a chief Experience officer,
23:22
even though all departments need to come together to drive that experience, and that's
23:27
where nu answers of those kind of then start percolating downwards. Apple has a
23:32
chief design officer, right, many companies don't, and that's why you start
23:36
it becomes bastardized in the process and then it never gets shipped. But again,
23:41
when you start looking at the micro level, I think USA really thinks
23:45
about its offline member experience, the products well, they know their user well,
23:48
they drive those things, and again they have a great digital experience to
23:52
kind of go along with it. And those under nu answers when they start
23:56
kind of when you know your user, they will kind of tell you how
23:59
to inner way and they will point you to all the pain points that they
24:02
have. And that's all I mean. A company just needs to follow the
24:04
user and the pain points and you will always be out innovating. But even
24:07
today, as I said, many companies don't even know what the top pain
24:11
points, but the top users are. Yeah, I have just to kind
24:15
of link that great experience with customer kind of loyalty. I'm a thirty five
24:21
year member of USA. Great service, great experience, and I will never
24:25
leave them. It's and that's the kind of loyalty that an application and experience
24:30
can drive. It's it's a great it's a great example, right, and
24:36
I'll give you it's to work for PayPal. That's where a long time back
24:38
and a lot of money. And this is actually an internal study that was
24:42
done on the Trust and Safety team, which is what I was supporting and
24:47
with my design team. One of the data set, which was very profound
24:51
for me when I was there, was for a lot of times we were
24:53
like, hey, Trust and Safety would be like, if anyone has an
24:56
issue with PayPal, then they would open a dispute, and then we're like,
24:57
hey, we will do our level no disputes ever get opened. That
25:02
was actually the what we were expending a lot of the energy on. And
25:04
then after a point we said, you know, how about trying a different
25:07
experiments, and some of the product managers there, in fact a really good
25:11
friend of mine, Colin Rule, it was actually leading some of those things.
25:15
He said, let's kind of see, let's measure that against when someone
25:18
has a bad experience, and then what do we do with it versus kind
25:22
of trying to avoid and putting all these things to kind of deflect any possible
25:26
issues, which is just too hard to manage. And then we realize that
25:29
if someone has a bad experience like and then we make it right, their
25:33
usage goes off the charts. I mean, they're much higher than somebody else.
25:37
And see, again, those are the nuanswers that you kind of start
25:38
thinking through. The other company that comes in the same line is Disney.
25:44
Disney actually has in the theme parts one of the most common things that happened
25:48
with a lot of kids running around as kids get lost, or at least
25:51
they wandered around, and they actually every cast member has a lost kid experience
25:56
well thought out and well registered. So if as soon as the kid has
26:00
lost, the Disney cast member knows what the protocol is. And again,
26:03
I mean it's all highly you know, you know, there's a tons of
26:07
cameras, there's a tons of you know, the things, and it's a
26:11
very safe area. So you know, ninety nine nine point ninety nine times
26:15
you will actually find the kid and then they're like, hey, here's the
26:18
thing, don't worry. And so the whole process is scripted as a lost
26:22
kid experience. And that's when you start to say every element of that is
26:25
kind of thought through and has built out and in the in the same construct,
26:30
when you start looking at employee experiences, how does someone get onboarded?
26:33
And howould someone get deboarded? How would someone kind of take a time off,
26:36
how would someone kind of have a stolen computer experience? Right, so
26:38
these are all nuances that actually have to be thought through. Uh and uh,
26:44
you know I had a guy who on my team who actually one day
26:45
was at in a meeting and suddenly someone spilled a cup of water on his
26:49
computer and and he's like freaking out, like what do I do? Have?
26:53
What? I like? I'm but that's an experience that and team someone
26:56
has been saying through because you know, you'll have damages and said like what's
27:00
the process immediately? And then how does someone come in and pitch in?
27:03
These are nuances that kind of, as I said, and the papal experience,
27:07
what you do when something bad goes wrong is actually going to define like
27:10
a loyalty and everything else that happens afterwards. Yeah, you know Tom was
27:14
late for a meeting this morning. I thought we were going to have to
27:17
employ our lost kid experience to go find him. I was providing a Tomless
27:22
meeting experience. I love the word. I love the word. When we
27:27
start adding the suffix of experience to anything, and just your mind plays very
27:33
different games with that. I thought about it when you said the stolen computer
27:36
experience. I was like a fief being, like I provide stolen computer experiences.
27:41
How popular that would be such a I can imagine that AI is proving
27:47
quite a useful and disruptive force in your analysis of user experiences. No wonder
27:55
if you could give some insight into whether that's a case and how absolutely.
28:00
I think if you really go back to the basics of what is AI or
28:04
what is artificial intelligence, it's just a modeling of human behavior, right,
28:08
or and and and so again. Someone who studies human behavior and studies what
28:12
is common and human behavior, I think AI is the models are getting very
28:18
strong, and the models are getting smarter. I still think it's ways to
28:23
go for it to kind of truly understand behavior and predict behavior and then start
28:30
providing experiences. But what you start seeing is something very profound happening. I'll
28:37
probably talk about the most common thing that in AI that's happened in the last
28:40
few months, which is shat GPT right, And one thing that's kind of
28:45
happened with that it not only can understand your question, it can answer your
28:48
question as well as give your code to kind of to implement something that you
28:55
want to do in that line of the area of work. Now, suddenly
28:57
that means it can understand, it can act. That's so it can comprehend
29:04
and it can act, and so it uh So, my master's thesis was
29:10
on robotics and human robotic interaction, and a robot and in a basic sense
29:15
is something that can take a command and then act on it, right,
29:18
And that's what you have actuators, and then you have a programming element.
29:22
And I think the intelligence is coming to that. I say that in a
29:26
double quotes. The intelligence is coming to a point where it can understand and
29:30
now start acting through other writing code or through doing some actions and so ons
29:34
of forth. And that's actually very very interesting because workflows will now happen magically.
29:38
As I said you know earlier in the in the podcast, that the
29:45
best experience is not having a form at all. Now what happens. I'll
29:49
just give you a classic citizen experience that you know and most governments are investing
29:55
in citizen experience. But their process of citizen experience is, Hey, you
29:59
come in an air Now it's contactless. Fill this form that used to get
30:02
it in paper before, but fill it all online right now? What if
30:06
I could just, you know, take a picture of my passport and just
30:10
send it somewhere and it automatically fills it up. It knows which flights are
30:14
coming at that point. This is when I say the smartness and then the
30:15
actions are all correlated. I don't even have to fill a form. What
30:21
if the cameras itself when as soon as I'll get into the land and the
30:22
airport knows that which kata am I coming from, So it knows my flight,
30:26
it knows where my previous time I had ended it. It correlates to
30:29
data. I don't have to sign a form, And that's when you start
30:33
realizing that a lot of those data and those elements kind of start connecting together,
30:37
and which is why as a designer you start seeing that all those possibilities
30:41
start come into the four amazing, amazing, And it's so interesting talking to
30:45
you today, search Ivan. Just to just to ram things off, maybe
30:48
you could tell us about a big plan or plans that you actual react as
30:52
FISA or you have FIS year's twenty twenty three all about you. I think
30:56
twenty twenty three for us as it's obviously, you know, helping a couple
31:02
of companies. So we obviously are a reasonable size firm, but we are
31:10
very picky with you know, who we work with because it's you know,
31:11
as you So one of the things for me this year is kind of identify
31:17
and work with at least three or four companies that really want to kind of
31:21
nail this and kind of when with the philosophy of you know, user first
31:25
and experience, user experience and design before technology. So that's my goal,
31:30
you know, And I'm out there talking to everyone and saying this is the
31:34
way to approach it, and the companies that selves select themselves, I love
31:38
to work with them. Amazing or such. It makes me absolutely pleasure talking
31:41
to you, really really yeah. Great great subject matter for today's show.
31:45
Loved it, loved it, so thanks so much for coming home. We
31:48
hope to see you again. Likewise, thank you so much. To make
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sure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in Apple podcast
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