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Ranji Nagaswami: The Outsourced Chief Investment Officer · Masters in Business

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  Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have Ranji Naka Swamy.
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  Speaker 1: She has quite the storied background as both a chief
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  Speaker 1: investment officer and a chief executive officer at finance firms.
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  Speaker 1: Uh she started out at U U b S Asset Management.
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  Speaker 1: She ended up joining Sanford Bernstein. Ultimately she finds herself
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  Speaker 1: at the City of New York's pension and retirement systems
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  Speaker 1: as chief investment officers. She's had the role of chief
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  Speaker 1: investment officer across numerous firms, and really this is a
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  Speaker 1: if you're at all interested in asset allocation and thinking
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  Speaker 1: about different types of asset classes, be the sources of beta,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: sources of alpha, sources of non correlated alternative returns. This
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: is going to be the convert station for you. Uh
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: we Really she does a really nice job of covering
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  Speaker 1: wonky subjects but making it really understandable for the lay person.
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  Speaker 1: We really don't go too deep into the weeds on
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  Speaker 1: a lot of the things we discuss with no further ado.
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  Speaker 1: Here is my conversation with Rangji Naga Swamy. My special
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  Speaker 1: guest today is Ranji Naga Swamy She has a stellar
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  Speaker 1: resume filled with all of the best firms on Wall
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  Speaker 1: Street and in finance. She began at UBS in the
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  Speaker 1: asset management division before she joined Sanford Bernstein, eventually rising
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  Speaker 1: to become Chief Investment Officer of Alliance Bernstein Investments. From
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  Speaker 1: two thousand and ten to two thousand and twelve, she
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  Speaker 1: served as the chief investment Advisor for the City of
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  Speaker 1: New York's pension and retirement systems. She has held senior
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  Speaker 1: positions at Bridgewater Associates, Court their Capital, and she is
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  Speaker 1: currently chief executive officer of Hurdle Callahan. Ranji Nagaswami, Welcome
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  Speaker 1: to Boomberg. Thanks for having me very so. I've been
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  Speaker 1: looking forward to having you here for a while because
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  Speaker 1: you have a really fascinating background and quite a financial
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  Speaker 1: services resume. Let's start with UBS. What what brought you
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  Speaker 1: to UBS and what did you learn there? So? I
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  Speaker 1: got to UBS right after a business school. I was
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  Speaker 1: in the fixed income division. Having been a quant a
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  Speaker 1: bit of a self professed geek all my life, with
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  Speaker 1: an accounting and mathematical background, it was not not a
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  Speaker 1: surprise that I started out at the bottom of the
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  Speaker 1: investment department in fixed income as a quantitative analyst, and
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  Speaker 1: over the ten years from the time I started to
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  Speaker 1: the time I ran the entire department globally running fixed
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  Speaker 1: income for UBSS Management, I wore many hats. In the
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  Speaker 1: late nineteen eighties and nine nine, during the SNL crisis,
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  Speaker 1: I was asked to help with the HIL portfolios, so
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  Speaker 1: being an accounting undergrad and understanding financial statements, I jumped
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  Speaker 1: right into high yield in the middle of that chaos.
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  Speaker 1: In four when the FED started to tighten, I was
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  Speaker 1: asked to help with the mortgage backed securities portfolios, so
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  Speaker 1: all of that negative convexity and a tightening cycle. Mortgages
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  Speaker 1: were the worst performer in those in the period thereafter.
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  Speaker 1: So essentially a career of jumping into things that were
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  Speaker 1: about on their backs as cheap as they could get,
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  Speaker 1: being a problem solver, and eventually being asked to run
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  Speaker 1: the team. In the mid to late nineties, let's move
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  Speaker 1: to San Francie Bernstein, which eventually became Alliance Burns. Thing.
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  Speaker 1: You were there pretty much in the beginning of the
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  Speaker 1: financial crisis, weren't you. I was there when value was in.
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  Speaker 1: It's not dear nine, No one was a value investor.
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  Speaker 1: Remember people were actually saying, oh, this Warren Buffett guy,
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  Speaker 1: he's lost it. Absolutely, value investing is dead. That was
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  Speaker 1: the headline. And having been a value investor in fixed
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  Speaker 1: income all my life and by the way, nine while
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  Speaker 1: I was at UBS, the firm was bought by Swiss
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  Speaker 1: Bank and Gary Brinson came into my life a legendary
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  Speaker 1: value investor and a thinker about global asset allocation, and
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  Speaker 1: that has served me extremely well. That training with Gary
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  Speaker 1: Brinson and Brinson partners went to Bernstein because like me,
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  Speaker 1: they were still believers that value investing would work. Someday
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  Speaker 1: was the fifth person in the history of Bernstein to
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  Speaker 1: be brought in as a partner, and shortly after I joined,
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  Speaker 1: six months later, the firm was sold to Alliance Capital.
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  Speaker 1: In that six month period, I had worked very closely
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  Speaker 1: with Lucanders and Maryland Feedback, who are of course some
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  Speaker 1: of the greatest value equity investors of all time. And
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  Speaker 1: upon that when that transaction happened, I said, I did
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  Speaker 1: not come here to join Alliance. I really wanted to
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  Speaker 1: stay with Bernstein, and I was persuaded to join the
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  Speaker 1: equity team. And so it's a very unorthodox move from
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  Speaker 1: fixed income to equities less unorthodox than you would imagine.
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  Speaker 1: On the research side, A lot of the best equity
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  Speaker 1: researchers I know all started out as fixed income researchers.
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  Speaker 1: You know. I like to think that once, if you
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  Speaker 1: had your fundamental training and fixed income, you understand capital structure,
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  Speaker 1: you understand term structure, and you understand risk at a
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  Speaker 1: far more granular level than most equity and absolutely absolutely,
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  Speaker 1: and so that the next five years of my life
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  Speaker 1: were terrific. I loved equity investing. If you can remember
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  Speaker 1: that time two thousand to two thousand and four, all
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  Speaker 1: of the darlings of the high yield market became value opportunities,
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  Speaker 1: and so I tremendously enjoyed and think back fondly to
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  Speaker 1: my time in the value equities team at Bernstein. Huh,
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  Speaker 1: so you have actually rise to chief investment officer of
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  Speaker 1: um Alliance Bernstein. What was that like? So? This was
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  Speaker 1: the Hunter and eighty billion dollar retailed mutual fund division
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  Speaker 1: that Bernstein actually inherited. It was an Alliance capital business,
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  Speaker 1: and we I joined it at a very troubled time
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  Speaker 1: in its history. Loosanders, the CEO of Bernstein, had just
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  Speaker 1: asked the top ten people to leave the firm in
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  Speaker 1: the wake of an sec settlement and a crisis, and
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  Speaker 1: this was a transformation. What was needed was to completely
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  Speaker 1: fundamentally rethink the firm's approach to the retail investor. And
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  Speaker 1: what I really started with was how do retail investors behaved?
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  Speaker 1: We embraced the work of behavioral economists like Daniel Kahneman,
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  Speaker 1: who had always been a very big influence on the
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  Speaker 1: Bernstein value investing philosophy. So the idea of investors being
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  Speaker 1: myopically loss a verse, the idea that investors were much
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  Speaker 1: more likely to believe something that they heard repeatedly and
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  Speaker 1: most recently recency bias, confirmation bias. All of that went
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  Speaker 1: into the design of how we restructured the mutual fund division. Essentially,
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  Speaker 1: over the next four years, we went from fifty five
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  Speaker 1: mutual funds, multiple tech funds, biotech funds, to really thinking
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  Speaker 1: about what are the sources of return and risk that
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  Speaker 1: every investor should own. And I remember making a presentation
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  Speaker 1: to morning Star where I said, we have fifty five funds,
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  Speaker 1: today investors need about a dozen. And that's exactly what
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  Speaker 1: we did. We took the mutual fund lineup down from
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  Speaker 1: fifty five to thirteen. Now, what we also did was
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  Speaker 1: recognized that because investors were far worse off when you
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  Speaker 1: looked at returns from a dollar weighted basis than a
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  Speaker 1: time weighted basis, asset allocations strategies were probably the single
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  Speaker 1: best response to human behavior. Berry, I've often said that
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  Speaker 1: bilo selhai are the foremost abused words in the investment business,
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  Speaker 1: and the answer to that is asset allocation portfolios. Coming up,
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  Speaker 1: we continue our conversation with Ranji Nagaswamy discussing running of
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  Speaker 1: values based firm in a rules based industry. I'm Barry Hults.
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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My
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  Speaker 1: special guest today is Ranji Nagaswamy. She was at UBS
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  Speaker 1: and Sanford Bernstein before she went on to serve as
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  Speaker 1: chief's Chief Investment Advisor to the New York City Pension System.
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  Speaker 1: So you're now doing something a little different than what
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  Speaker 1: you've done previously. Tell us a little bit about Hurdle
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  Speaker 1: Callahan and how you found your way to this company.
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  Speaker 1: You know this role as CEO of one of the
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  Speaker 1: greatest firms I think in the investment business. Hurdle Callaghan
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  Speaker 1: a pioneer in the outsource chief investment officer industry. To
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  Speaker 1: find what that is for the lay person who may
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  Speaker 1: not be familiar with it. Think about if you are
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  Speaker 1: an endowment, a foundation, or a family, wouldn't you like
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  Speaker 1: to have someone by your side as as if they
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  Speaker 1: were your internal chief investment officer. Only they bring the
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  Speaker 1: scale and the expertise and the depth of a much
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  Speaker 1: larger firm. If you were a fifty million dollar family
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  Speaker 1: or a two million dollar endowment of a middle Midwestern
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  Speaker 1: educational institution, it is impossible for you to create the returns,
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  Speaker 1: the access to managers, the access to thinking about markets
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  Speaker 1: that a multibillion dollar endowment is able to do. In
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  Speaker 1: other words, the infrastructure, the hiring, the staffing, the resources
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  Speaker 1: of a giant institution is made available to smaller shops,
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  Speaker 1: family offices, pension funds, etcetera. Exactly not just the operational
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  Speaker 1: and administrative infrastructure, but the investment capability, the investment access,
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  Speaker 1: and the ability to to access world class managers, but
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  Speaker 1: at much lower fees. If a two million dollar institution
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  Speaker 1: went to get a manager, they would pay their highest
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  Speaker 1: fee level. But if we are investing hundreds of billions
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  Speaker 1: in with this investor, we will get a much lower fee.
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  Speaker 1: So it is a far more scalable, cost efficient model
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  Speaker 1: to get best thinking about markets into these smaller portfolios.
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  Speaker 1: How did you find your way to this firm? And
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  Speaker 1: this is really different than what you've done as a
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  Speaker 1: c i O for a specific company. Now you're a
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  Speaker 1: c i O for many firms. We see the entire
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  Speaker 1: investment industry as being a very essential role for clients,
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  Speaker 1: but most firm are. If you if you take the
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  Speaker 1: analogy from the healthcare industry, most firms are like the
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  Speaker 1: large pharmaceutical companies or the drug manufacturers, playing a vital
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  Speaker 1: role spending a lot of time on a particular disease
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  Speaker 1: or a particular product to help with the particular disease.
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  Speaker 1: We see ourselves far more at Hurdle Callahan as the
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  Speaker 1: mayo clinic. We want to serve the client. We want
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  Speaker 1: someone to come in with an issue and a problem
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  Speaker 1: or something to solve, something they need help with in investing,
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  Speaker 1: and we access the product providers, but we are the
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  Speaker 1: ones that's doing the diagnosis. We are understanding the client's
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  Speaker 1: fact pattern. We are meeting the client where they are.
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  Speaker 1: What do I mean by that? What is your risk tolerance.
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  Speaker 1: Berry doesn't matter what the rest of the world does.
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  Speaker 1: How much liquidity do you need? What does your institution
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  Speaker 1: want from this portfolio? And we bring all of the
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  Speaker 1: products together in a way that makes sense for this
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  Speaker 1: particular client. Now there are a number of c i
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  Speaker 1: O outsourcing firms in the world. How do you fit
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  Speaker 1: into that firmament? How large have you guys become and
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  Speaker 1: how long has Hurdle Callahan been around thirty years ago?
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  Speaker 1: At this point, when John Hurdle and his and his
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  Speaker 1: partner went on to form Hurdle Callahan, no one had
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  Speaker 1: thought about the words outsourced c i O. David Swenson
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  Speaker 1: was not a household name. The endowment model was not known.
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  Speaker 1: A total solution with uncorrelated sources of return were not known,
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  Speaker 1: having a single solution taking a dred percent of a
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  Speaker 1: client's money. None of those things were even in the
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  Speaker 1: industry lexicon. So thirty years later, it is not a
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  Speaker 1: surprise that we are one of the largest still privately held,
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  Speaker 1: stand alone, pure play outsourced chief investment officers. Our business
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  Speaker 1: model is one of the most intriguing things about that
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  Speaker 1: that attracted me to the firm. We are conflict free.
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  Speaker 1: This idea we use our scale. We are over twenty
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  Speaker 1: billion and client assets today. Very few c i O
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  Speaker 1: s have managed when they have gone to the outsource
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  Speaker 1: model to scale up to that size. That allows us
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  Speaker 1: to negotiate fees for our clients and manage our clients
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  Speaker 1: costs down. So what's the difference between managing money as
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  Speaker 1: a outsourced c i O and what you did? Um
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  Speaker 1: let's use Alliance Bernstein on the retail level. How do
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  Speaker 1: those two compare? So the first, of course is in
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  Speaker 1: retail or in any product shop which which populates a
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  Speaker 1: client client's portfolio with only their products, there's an inherent
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  Speaker 1: conflict of interest. We don't have that. We manage none
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  Speaker 1: of the money ourselves. We pull the asset allocation together
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  Speaker 1: to meet a client's needs and then go out. We
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  Speaker 1: are completely agnostic whether we would buy passive or active.
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  Speaker 1: When we invest in active, how much is in liquid
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  Speaker 1: versus a liquid We we have this for the hurdle.
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  Speaker 1: Callahan innovated very early in the factor investing space. What
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  Speaker 1: is now popular and very well known ten years ago
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  Speaker 1: was not at all known. And yet we recognized that
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  Speaker 1: active managers in many, many active manager portfolios. All we
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  Speaker 1: were getting was factor beta exposure to a particular risk
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  Speaker 1: and paying active fees for it. So we designed our
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  Speaker 1: own portfolios which are managed by a third party, but
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  Speaker 1: with our our design and our our innovation to design
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  Speaker 1: these portfolios to play a pretty central part of our
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  Speaker 1: clients equity exposures. So the way I would describe it
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  Speaker 1: is we have been a firm that has to it
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  Speaker 1: for innovation in investing. We are deeply valuation focused our
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  Speaker 1: entire philosophy, which was a big part of the attraction.
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  Speaker 1: So other than the business model which is conflict free
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  Speaker 1: and uses scale to manage costs and do provide our
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  Speaker 1: service at reasonable fees, the valuation philosophy was a tremendous
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  Speaker 1: alignment of the way I think about investing in the
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  Speaker 1: way Hurdle Callahan has always thought about investing. To put it,
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  Speaker 1: simply buying assets, whether in equities or fixed income, large
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  Speaker 1: or small, international or US at at the cheapest prices
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  Speaker 1: at the at the most reasonable valuation level and avoiding
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  Speaker 1: them or selling them when they become expensive over long
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  Speaker 1: time horizons five to sevent year horizons is by far
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  Speaker 1: the soundest way to invest, and this firm has stuck
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  Speaker 1: to its discipline over thirty year periods. So this is
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  Speaker 1: a very prov infirm in terms of using that valuation
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  Speaker 1: framework for clients. Let's talk a little bit about the
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  Speaker 1: role of women in finance. I have made an effort
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  Speaker 1: to bring more women on the show, and it's not
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  Speaker 1: easy to find people, um to do that, because it
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  Speaker 1: really is so disproportionately, uh, finances, so disproportionately a male
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  Speaker 1: dominated field that there seems to be signs though that
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  Speaker 1: that's changing. How do you perceive what's going on in
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  Speaker 1: the industry in terms of a little better gender ratio
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  Speaker 1: than than finances has had for a long time. I
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  Speaker 1: hope you are right. I hope things are changing, but
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  Speaker 1: the data would not suggest that that is really true
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  Speaker 1: in a very in any kind of systematic way. UM.
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  Speaker 1: I will tell you that I see it as one
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  Speaker 1: of my personal missions in life to make sure that
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  Speaker 1: Hurdle Callahan has not just a gener they're balanced workforce,
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  Speaker 1: but a balanced workforce period. And so that really means
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  Speaker 1: having people from all sorts of backgrounds at the table,
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  Speaker 1: reflecting our clients, reflecting the world we live in, and
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  Speaker 1: honestly reflecting the best possible pool of talent. And the
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  Speaker 1: data suggests the more diverse the head of a company is,
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  Speaker 1: the better the returns are, the better the performances. That's
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  Speaker 1: exactly That's exactly the data, right, and so why why
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  Speaker 1: would you not design? But for me this comes to
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  Speaker 1: process design in our own recruitment. We hired an extraordinary
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: talent from Expedia as our chief human resources Officer, and
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Sarah our Our c h r O has brought a
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  Speaker 1: whole way of thinking about the inputs that dry recruiting
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  Speaker 1: that lead to outputs, which is a balanced workforce. And
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the inputs are how do we write the job description,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: how do we insist a recruiter called the pool of talent?
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  Speaker 1: If you put your job posting on LinkedIn, you're gonna
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  Speaker 1: get hundreds of hits. How who are the ten people
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  Speaker 1: that you will narrow that down to? What's their gender balance?
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  Speaker 1: If nine out of ten are a certain group, whatever
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  Speaker 1: group that is, you're likely to hire someone out of
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  Speaker 1: that group. So we have examined our entire recruitment process,
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  Speaker 1: from the job description to the slate of candidates, to
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  Speaker 1: who does the interview If a candidate of diversity, background, opinion,
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  Speaker 1: angle of approach, or a gender ethnicity meets people like them,
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  Speaker 1: they're far more likely to be attracted to that firm. Now,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: we are very privileged that almost half of the senior
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: team at the firm at Hurdle Callaghan are women. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: on your executive team you have five women, which is
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  Speaker 1: in finance relatively unusual. That leads to the question, what
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: is taking the rest of Wall Street so long to
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: catch up with some of the smaller, more nimble firms
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: who been more aggressive in this space. Look, I generally
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: believe that unconscious bias is one of the most relevant
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: biases when it comes to answering your question, and I
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  Speaker 1: also believe that leadership has not made it enough of
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  Speaker 1: a priority. I am really struck in all of my
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: thinking about my own career and the trajectory of the
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  Speaker 1: ark of my life how much the choices I have
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: made have been deliberate and have taken a lot of
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: work to kind of create a culture and an environment
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: that leads to certain behavior and leads to certain outcomes.
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  Speaker 1: And my fear is it's really about the culture of
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  Speaker 1: the firm and the leaders at the top who have
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: whether they they they pay lip service to this, but
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: have not created the processes and the commitment that this
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  Speaker 1: would hit the academic data shows that women are less emotional,
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  Speaker 1: they make better decisions, and they have better performance as
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  Speaker 1: PORTFOLI the managers. So that raises the question why aren't
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  Speaker 1: more organizations embracing that. Is it simply a question of
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  Speaker 1: a bad hiring process. I think it's it goes back
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  Speaker 1: to culture, and I really believe that it's not just
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  Speaker 1: a hiring process issue, because this talent comes in the door.
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  Speaker 1: There are many many women today. You look at the
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  Speaker 1: college graduate numbers and ratios, and there are many women
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  Speaker 1: entering the workforce, but we lose them along the way,
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  Speaker 1: and I wonder, and my belief has often has has
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  Speaker 1: really been that it is about the culture of a
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  Speaker 1: firm and how the workforce is managed and treated as
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  Speaker 1: it matures within a company. Let's talk a little bit
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: about the way you approach asset management. You mentioned asset
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  Speaker 1: allocation earlier. Tell us about how you begin the process
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: of putting together a diversified portfolio. You know, before I
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: jump in to the portfolio construction piece. One of the
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  Speaker 1: real reasons I think asset management is a gem of
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  Speaker 1: an industry in society is because of what it means
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  Speaker 1: for the average investor. Asset management is the part of
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  Speaker 1: finance that really allows investors to take their hard earned
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  Speaker 1: serving savings and turn them into very productive capital and
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: pulling of assets. The first mutual fund, the way we
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: now invest and take it for granted, but was so
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  Speaker 1: novel in the last forty years, has really been a
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: tremendous innovation in finance that has not only brought capital
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: to industry and create businesses, but has propelled investors by
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: making their savings far more productive than it would have
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: been had it been sitting in golda cash. So I
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: come back to this because the themes of what the
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: approach we take to asset management is really to remember
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: that as an outsourced chief investment officer, we are representing
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the owners of capital. We Our job is to take
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: our investment acumen, our our people, our investment philosophy, our process,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and without ever losing sight that we are here to
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: help these savers use their capital to meet their life needs.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Whether it's an organization endowment that has a mission, a
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: college that wants to be more tuition free and offer
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: more discounts, or a family philanthropy that seeks to change
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: its role in society, we really are here to bring
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: our investment acumen to a more productive use in society.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: So so let me ask you a question. Every day
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I pick up the Wall Street Journal, I open it up,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: and today there's an article about stocks being overvalued, And
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: yesterday was an article that bonds are overvalued, and last
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: week was a was an article that venture capital is overvalued.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: It seems that wherever you look, there are lots of
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: claims that all assets are overvalued. What how do you
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: respond to that and how do you operate in that
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: sort of environment. Well, we have come a long way
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: from March two thousand and nine, when the exact opposite
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: was true, when all assets were cheap, were priced very,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: very cheaply. We've had a long bull run in the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: global risk asset classes, fueled by a FED by a
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: US FED and global central banks that have kept interest
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: rates low for a very long period to be sure
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: we were out of what was a potentially generationally unnerving
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: crisis going back that has gone on for a really
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: long time, and at this point, all risky assets appeared
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to be fully valued, and some indeed are overvalued. The
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: most overvalued part parts of the markets are, indeed the
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: bond market and in particular the risk free parts of
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: the bond market, even though meaning treasuries, although credit is
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: now appearing quite fully valued to us as well. The
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: way we think about valuation is first relative to history,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: but also relative to other asset classes that are available
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: in the marketplace, and finally relative to level of growth
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: and prospects for earnings and returns going forward. So so
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it's historical, it's relative to other opportunities, and it's relative
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: to the economic environment. And when we look at the
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: first two assets are quite overvalued. But when you look
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: at the macro environment, corporate earnings are still strong. Growth
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: is not as strong as it has been in some
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: periods in the past, but we seem to be doing
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: just fine. Inflation is subdued, so we appeared to be
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: prolonging this Goldilock scenario of stable growth, low inflation, and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: corporate earnings have been robust. Earnings revisions in the US
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: going forward, looking forward for the next five months, next
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: twelve months, US earnings revisions are still positive, up about
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: five pc. But outside the US or earnings revisions are
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: in the double digits. So the real story is meaning Europe,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: emerging markets Asia exactly right, And so The real story
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: is today equities look attractive to bonds and with their equities,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: the most interesting parts of the world are non US
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: developed markets, particularly Europe and the emerging markets. Now, all
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: of these markets have done really well in the last
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: in the year to date in two thousand and seventeen,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: but we think that there is still room for for
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the growth for their improvement and earnings prospects. So we
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: are not yet pulling the reins in, but we are
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: remaining very cautious, in particular in bond markets. We are
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: very cautious in our client When I look back at
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the past ten years of performance. You said, we've had
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: a robust year in Europe and emerging markets, but on
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: a tenure basis, they've really done practically nothing, haven't they
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Absolutely right? So, look, the US was easily the most
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: decisive in terms of coming out of the crisis. Big response,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: very strong um uh, somewhat of a modest fiscal response,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: but a very strong monetary response, certainly before Europe or
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Japan started to engage in it when they were in denial.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Remember a guy flying over to Europe saying, you guys
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: need to do this, and so late to the game,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: quantitative easing. Now, obviously the mantra around the world, so
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: we were we under it seemed like our policy makers
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: understood the depths what we were dealing with and really
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: opened up both the Fed's balance sheet. The tried to
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: get risk back into the markets, and today ten years later,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: we really have potentially the excess of that. So let's
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: let's talk about bond markets. Since you brought that up.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Wherever you look, you mentioned risk free treasuries, corporates, pretty
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: much across the whole credit and duration curves. Everything looks
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: somewhat expensive in bond world. What's a fixed income investor
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to do? We have had a high yield and cash
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: barbell on in our portfolios. Now, admittedly the cash piece
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: of this has been an expensive, uh safety measure for
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: our portfolios, and we've also held on to hedge funds.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: So we have been invested in a barbell in fixed income,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: thinking that as the FED tightened, the higher quality, particularly
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the treasuries would be would underperform, and and that while
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: that has begun to happen in the last year, over
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the course of the last three or four years, we
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: have been our cautiousness has allowed us by the way
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: to also be overweighted inequities, which has worked in an
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: overall sense for client portfolios. But we have been very
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: reluctant investors and treasuries. So some people some people have
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: suggested UM having reeds or m LPs or something else
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that is high yielding to supplement their their high yield bonds.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: How do you look at those asset classes relative to
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: cash and and high yield. So we did have a
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: pretty significant view on commodities that we tempered in the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: middle of last year, in the fall of last year,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: so we have held commodity stocks. We shifted from the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: commodities themselves to the stocks, and in our taxable client
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: portfolios held m LPs. But we now have had a
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: pretty negative view on energy overall the last year, so
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: we have gone back to neutral, although we still have
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: about a four to six percent weight in those areas.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: In reeds, we were believers that that market was pretty
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: fully valued, and so we have not been overweight reads
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: for quite some time. So you've been gone from Bernstein
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: for a good couple of years. Uh. There's obviously been
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: this huge debate about active versus passive UM Van God
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: likes to describe it as high high cost versus low cost.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: What what goes through your mind when you see a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: research paper from Bernstein that says indexing is the new markets. Yes, yes,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: a little bit of sympathy for the view, but not
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: much sympathy for the journalism journalistic access that that implies. Um,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So let me let me step back and say the following.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: We are agnostic as to passive and active. We believe
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: that there is a time and place for passive and
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: there's a time a place for active. Today we are
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: very interested in active. So if you look at our
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: US equity portfolios, six of our portfolios are some combination
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of passive and factor based, which is near low cost
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: if you would right. But today we really believe you're
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: getting quite interested in the active managers who have been
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: on their backs. All active managers are massively underperformed in
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: the wake of the charging bull market. Now we are
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: beginning to get interested. We think that in a market
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: where there is no where all stocks are highly correlated,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you do not get paid for picking stock A or
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: stock bay. So now we are beginning as a firm
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: to get more interested in active. But just bear in
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: mind we are agnostic. We do not come out with
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: a point of view that you should only be passive
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: or only be active. We have been speaking with Ranji Nagaswamy.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: She is currently the chief executive officer of Hurdle Callahan.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Be sure and check out all of our podcast extras
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: where we keep the tape running and continue chatting about
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: all things investing. You can find the rest of the
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty or so podcasts in this series wherever
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: fine podcasts are sold. We love your feedback and suggestions.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Be sure to write to us at m IB podcast
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. You could follow me on Twitter
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: at rit Holts and check out my daily column on
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg View dot com. I'm Barry rit Holts. You're listening
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Ronchie.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this. I've been looking
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: forward to having this conversation for quite some time. Um,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: let's let's jump back to a couple of questions that
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't get to during the broadcast portion. Uh, tell
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: me about what you've done in the past with the
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Aspen Institute and and the new project that you've had
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: underway with them for for a while now. So Barry.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I was honored to be selected and nominated as a
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Aspen Fellow in the Henry Crown Fellowship program at the Institute.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Aspen really is an institute that was created in the
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: aftermath of two World Wars and the Great Depression to
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: ask leaders in business what is your responsibility for building
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the good society? And in the aftermath of all of
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: that destruction, the question cause quite simply, where were the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: business leaders and what is the role of the private
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: sector in really building and shaping the good society? So,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: using readings that are time tested Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Lock Hume,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: we really get to fundamental notions of as leaders in society.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: How do we trade off liberty and equality, efficiency and community?
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: What are the choices we make? How do you, as
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a successful business person walk in the world. And I
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: was nominated to this fellowship by the Dean of the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yale School of Management, a good friend in two thousand
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: and five at a time when I was leading Alliance
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Bernstein's mutual fund division through a transformation post a pretty
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: significant self inflicted crisis at the firm or in that
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: division of the firm, and I was brought in as
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: part of a management team to help turn that division around.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: And as we confronted business practices, as we confronted our
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: role with retail investors who know so little about the investments,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: we were buying all of the principles of what am
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: I here to do as a leader. I'm here to
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: actually be a fight usuary in its fullest sense of
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: the word, to actually take decisions and be a steward
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: of my of my clients capital. So this began a
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: journey for me, now obviously over a dozen years ago,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: into my leadership values, my leadership style. In two thousand
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and ten, I remember so clearly when I was sitting
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: in Mayor Bloomberg's administration, as you've noted, as his chief
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: investment advisor in the third term of the Bloomberg mayoralty.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: This role, by the way, in the Bloomberg administration was
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: created to health the city with what had become a
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: cute financial and budgetary crisis. Pension expenditure had gone from
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: one percent of the budget to twelve percent of the budget,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: really crowding out investment in schools, roads, uh and healthcare
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and many other things. And I was asked to come
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: in and really help the administration think through this issue
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and as Mike said, fixed set, which of course is
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: easier said than done. But as I was sitting in
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: an investment committee meeting and watching the administration at odds
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: with the unions, and the administration and the unions completely
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: at odds with wolf Street. Remember two years following the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Great Financial Crisis, our our cities pensions are at their
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: lowest point. All of the risk that had been taken
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: in this portfolio and equities had had devastating effects for
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: the funded status of the pension portfolios. What I recognized
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: is that we needed to bring the ecosystem of finance
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: into a conversation about the role of finance in society.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: And this was not something that I thought we should
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: leave to our regulators. You know, it's very easy when
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: we look backed on the crisis to say, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Guidner and Bernancy were great, but they should have known
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: they created the rules that they looked the other way
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: when when finance began to fail, where were the business leaders?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Where were the leaders in finance who were saying, you
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: know what, thirty to one leverage is pernicious to the system,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: and how can we put the entire system at this
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: kind of risk. If you recall, there were a handful
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: of people that were raising those questions and everybody looked
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: at them like they were crazy. What you know, the
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: market's going up, Everything is good, this is working while
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: getting the way. In fact, green then FED Chairman Alan
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Greenspan famously said when someone had it might have even
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: been Edward Gramleck was a FED governor, Hey you have
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: all these crazy mortgages sub prime mortgages were Greenspan's response was,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: we don't want to mess around with the financial innovators.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: What do you do when everybody is looking the other
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: way and the train is coming down the tracks and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: and people are pretending it's not coming. But the key
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: to your statement is everybody we were all complexit. And
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: the question we ask in the Aspen Fine in the
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Aspen Leadership program is what about you? What are you
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: going to do about this issue? And so follow on
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: and a few years later it occurs to me that
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: finance needs a group of leaders who will step up
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: and accept responsibility for their role in reconnecting finance and society.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: And it is this set of values that leads me
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: and a group of people at the Aspen Institute to
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: founding something called the Aspen Finance Leaders Fellowship. We have
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: just announced our second class of leaders. Every year we
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: gather about twenty two people around the table. So this
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: is the long game. This is saying that in ten
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: years we will have over two leaders in finance around
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: the world, selected from across the financial ecosystem, savers of capital,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: users of capital, intermediaries and stewards, and the regulators in
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: a conversation first about their personal leadership and their personal
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: responsibility in whatever belieful pit they have, and our whatever
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: role they play in. And these are highly successful people
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: in their firms and in the industry coming together then
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: in using a project to really define how they want
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: to connect finance and society. Now this is about Aspen,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: and your question was about Aspen. And this, of course
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: is my life's legacy. I've considered this my Elie Mascenary commitment.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: My husband and I are really committed to using this
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and and and believing and investing in this for the
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: next twenty to thirty years whatever it takes. But to
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: come full circle with this to your earlier question about
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Hurdle Callahan. In my very first conversation with John Hurtle.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: One of the real reasons we hit it off was
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: because we both have spent our lives, in his case,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: building a highly successful business model outsourced chief investment officer
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: really as an innovator and a pioneer in finance, creating
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a model that never existed that puts the client at
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: its center and brings our capability to the client. And
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: in my case, I say giving speeches and creating this fellowship,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: and hands down, John wins because building a great business
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: which you know stands the test of time and market
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: cycles is by far a stronger way to make a statement.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: So this shared value about what finance can do in
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: society is why I joined Hurdle Callahan and why of
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: us in a suburb of Philadelphia today are really believing
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: that this is the business model for the future of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: the asset management industry. But back to Aspen Institute, you
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: the parallel I'm thinking of is someone endows a chair
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: at a university. There was a project you've been working
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: on an Aspen more specifically, which is the Finance Leader's Fellowship.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: That's what That's what the name of it. In extending, yes,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: in extending the Henry Crown Fellowship of the fellowship model
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: at Aspen to to the finance industry. My project has
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: really been to start this conversation and how many years
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: into this are we now? So we just announced our
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: second class. We've been working on it for five years.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: But this is one of the fifteen fellowship programs at
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: the Aspen Institute. That that's quite fascinating. Let's let's talk
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: about another fascinating place you worked. You held a fairly
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: senior position at Bridgewater Associates run by Ray Dalio and Company.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: What was that experience like? First, that was a brief experience,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: um and so not something not not a place where
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time. Bridgewater is a fascinating
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: institution because, first of how they think about markets and investing.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: This is one of the purest intellectual exercises in investing
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I think in the world. Really, that's quite quite a statement.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: It really is quite a tagment. And what I took
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: away from my brief time there was really how to
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: think about markets, how to think about risk. I fundamentally
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: broadened and deepened my understanding of risk in our parts
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: that are embedded in our portfolios, and how people really
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: ignore diversification from an environmental risk perspective to their own peril.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: But equally I brought what I've brought to Hurtle Callahan
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: and other endeavors is the culture piece, and the culture
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: piece in its most benign form, which is transparency, employee engagement,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: and really focusing on excellence, how to keep getting better
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: at getting better? They that's really interesting. They describe themselves
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: as having radical transparency. Is that is that a fair assessment? Look,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: as I just said, Bridgewater is a singular culture and
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: transfer singular and that is unlike in other words, unlike
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: anything else, and it is for the person. It is
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: a glorious firm. But I would say that for me,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the principles that have endured, including transparency and excellence, are
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: really the hallmarks of my time. There. Interesting you mentioned
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: at Hurdle you guys, um you guys. I've always used
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: that phrase. Can I tell you? I've always used that
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: phrase as a gender neutral phrase. It's like you collective guys,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: meaning people in the room. But given our earlier conversation,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: it stands out like a sore thumb. You folks at
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Hurdle Callahan, you put money into venture capitals, private equity
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: and hedge funds. As well as UH indexing and factor models, etcetera.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: What's the process like to select any of the alternative
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: investments hedge funds, venture capital, private equity. I think the
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: average investor is both fascinated by the group and somewhat
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the personalities, the process, the dollar figures, because
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: they're always uh so outsized the compensation and so outside.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: What is your process like when you're trying to figure
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: out if a half a billion dollar endowment says, look,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: we're just looking for something simple, maybe we want x
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: percent of our portfolio in alter alternatives, how do you
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: approach that? So once we have the conversation with the
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: client about their risk tolerance and their liquidity needs, it's
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: very important to do the scenario analysis to say, if
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: we had a great financial crisis again, your a liquid
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: portfolio will double because you will because of the market
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Reactually that was a lesson learned. Everything else will gets
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: smaller and suddenly this is the market exactly, and and
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: this and you can't get out, so we have to
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: be we have. But once we've done all that, and
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: that planning piece, by the way, is a huge part
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: of what an outsourced ce IO us much as that's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: exactly what an internal chief investment officer would do. But
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: once we get to that and we have decided on
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: an allocation, first a couple of things about our business model.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: We are not a fund of funds. We have no
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: layers of fees, so we are building our sleeves venture capital,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: private equity, hedge funds not to make it available in
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the marketplace. No one can buy those services from us
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: if they are not in our overall, right, so we
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: are completely aligned, just as David Spensen would not get
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: paid more or less if he was investing or not
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: investing in hedge funds as an example. So that's the model,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: and we are very pure in that way. But within
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: within these asset classes, we only invest in them to
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: the extent that they're additive to what we can get
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: cheaply in public markets data. So by definition the costs
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: matter greatly because it's all net of fees that we
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: care about. But the correlation to the rest of the
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: portfolio becomes a very significant part of the exercise. So
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: that suggests more venture capital and private equity than hedge funds,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: or is that just my bias revealing it? So it
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: looks at the answer will depend on the five to
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: ten year horizon that we see for each of these
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: asset classes and what's going on. The reason I asked
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: that is, except for very very specialized types of hedge
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: funds like risk ARB or something that's really very non correlated,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: most of the hedge funds. There are eleven thousand hedge
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: funds out there, most of them seem to be fairly
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: correlated to the equity markets. Fair fair statement, very fair statement,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: And so we do analytical work up front so that
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: we don't pay for passive beta or what we call
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: structural beta. Structural beta is, for example, merger arbitrage, where
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: in fact, you could have an entire basket where you
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: go long the acquired company and short the acquiring company.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: That structural beta, it's it's related to a certain part
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: of the market structure or or or a way of
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: looking at the world. We don't want to pay over
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: pay for that. What we really want to be able
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: to isolate is that idiosyncratic skill. And then what we
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: want to pay for is something that moves very differently
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: than the rest of our portfolio. So the portfolio construction
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: for us is deeply focused on what are the strategies
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: that the underlying managers are employing to create value, and
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: is that reliable, sustainable, consistent, then we are willing to invest.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So it's a very high bar. It's a deep research
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: process and it truly is to end up with the
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: portfolio where those I liquid buckets, other than capturing the
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: liquidity risk premier, also give us something that's very different
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: than what we can do in public markets. So it's
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: it's really a very different set of analytics and a
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: very different research process with the alternatives and lives with
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: the rest of your asset allocation. I put it this way,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: there is a beta decision that needs to be made
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: and that's our valuation framework. But when we get into
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: active management, whether in the public long only space, hedge
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: fund space, of private equity, our research process is the same.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: It's really who are the people, what are their investment beliefs,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: what are their time tested ways of investing, and can
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: we gain the confidence from our due diligence, our research
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: writing shotgun as these people drive around and make their
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: investment decisions and look at their investments, understand how their
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: investment committee works. So we get very granular into people
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: in process. At our managers, whether they're long only active,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: or or in the in the private markets. The beta
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: process is what's different because that is really driven by
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: our valuation framework, which is based on normalized earnings going
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: into the future. That's quite fascinating. So I know, only
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: have you here for a finite amount of time. Let's
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: jump into some of our favorite questions that we ask
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: all of our guests. Let's let's start, Um, what's the
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: most interesting thing people don't know about your background? Well, look,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: I guess the way I'd answer that is the arc
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: of my life. Um. Really, from my roots, very humble
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: beginnings on the dusty suburbs of a very industrialized town
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: in India. Um too, the audacity of starting a world
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: class starting at a world class business school at the
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: age of twenty and I think to this date being
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: the youngest person ever admitted to the Yale Cool of Management.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: UM to really moving into my roles in the asset
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: management industry, always marrying. By the way, something else people
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: don't know about me is I spent fourteen years as
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: a classically trained dancer growing up in India, and from
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: my perspective, the creative side of me, the conceptual, creative
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: side married to a very hyper rational, pragmatic side has
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: really been the way I walk in the world that
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: has made me different as a leader, as a thinker
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: and as a doer. And so it's all of that
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: which the art. What that art traces, I think for
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: me to bury is a value system, and the value
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: system is really centered on confident humility, to have the
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: confidence in oneself to achieve difficult things, to take on
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: difficult things. But a fundamental humility with my background that
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: would have made my success against all odds that you know,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: to think that I could come from where I did
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: too to the success and to the to the engagement
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: that I have today in the world. UM. For me,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: it's that entire piece of the ark that is perhaps
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: not as known. Kind of fascinating that to even imagine
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: that you can merge creative arts like dancing with fundamental
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: work like accounting and statistics. UM, let's talk a little
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: bit about some of your early mentors. Tell me some
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: of the people who helped guide your career along its way.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: So I would always start with my dad, who every
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: morning when he left for work, looked at something in
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: the newspaper and reminded me that we would be debating
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: it tonight, and so I grew up debating my dad
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: for you know, through high school and college about politics
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and current affairs, but really coming to the business side
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: of it UM. I have been extraordinarily privileged in finding,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: seeking out and working with some very special mentors. Bert
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Malkiel was my faculty advisor at Yale and took an
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: interest in me and guided me throughout the recruiting process,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: guided me to asset management, and really encouraged me in
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: ways that were very special for someone who was twenty
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: and twenty one and trying to figure out the rest
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: of the world. Gary Brinson, who came into my life
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: in the mid nineties when Swiss Bank pot Qubs and
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I started working with Brinson Partner. What was Brinton partners
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: um really driving from the equity side my valuation discipline,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: but bringing global asset allocation into my thinking and and
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: something that I began to participate in. But perhaps the
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: most formative mentor for me, Lusanders at Bernstein. Lou has
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: been a role model, a guide, a league of friend
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: UM and his commitment to valuation and a value investment philosophy.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: I remember the stories told in nine and ninety nine,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: when you know, some of our our clients began to
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: lose confidence. Remember value was dead, and Luce said, listen,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: our clients believe we will simply need to understand how
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: to manage a smaller firm, never giving up on the
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: valuation philosophy, building Bernstein into the juggernaut that it became
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: in the two in the two thousands and to this
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: day one of the most I always want to know
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: what Luke thinks about the world and capital market. I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: remember the Bernstein research notes that came out in the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: late nineties, second to none. They were really absolutely top notch. Um,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: let's talk about investors. What what investors influence the way
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: you think about the world without a doubt lou and
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Gary Brin's and but I would also add um, David
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Swenson has played an extraordinary role in my thinking about
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: time horizon, in my thinking about governance and the role
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the things, particularly as it relates
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: both to our institutional as well as our family clients,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: it's yes, there is alpha from your investment policy, Yes
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: there is alpha from managers selection. But people underestimate the
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: role of governance and having the right agreement and the right,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I think shared thinking between an investment committee and your
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: investment staff, um the So it's not just horizon and governance,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: it's also being willing to be different, being willing to
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: be early, to spend your life building relationships, following deeply
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: what people do. David is a student of human nature.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: What's also not understood is David's extraordinary partnership with Dean
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Takahashi and his senior stuff. All of those things, to
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: me are the things that I have taken away from
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: my privileged friendship and relationship with the entire Yale Stuff
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and David Swanson. Let's talk about what is everybody seemingly
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: favorite question? Some of your favorite books? Fiction, nonfiction, investing,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: not investing. What what have you been reading lately and
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: what would you recommend people read? So h you know,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I have often said that if I wrote a book
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: about my childhood, it would be titled my Mother's favorite refrain.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Take your nose out of that book. So I have
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: I have been a prolific reader all of my life.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Um work wise, the most important books I have ever
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: read on finance had to do with human behavior. So
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: anything written by Knaman diversity really all of the books
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: and behavioral economics, and there are new versions of them
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: all the time. But I would say that my readings
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: for my Finance Fellowship about the role of finance and
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: society once in Golconda a must read for any financial
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: historian to understand how human behavior and the character of
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: the people at the time shaped the finance industry. UM.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I would add to that, UM, you know, my great
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: My most favorite readings are in moral philosophy. UM. Iris
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Murdoch is a is probably my most read I've probably
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: read more of her books than anybody else's. She's a
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: British philosopher who really talks about the moral dilemmas and
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: the need to live fully examined life. Uh and to
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: look in word, give us, give us a title? What,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: what's your what's the Where would you send someone to start? UM?
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Exploring Iris Murdock's work The Good Apprentice easily my my
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: favorite story. UM. But my on my bedside are two
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: things that will never leave my bedside, The poetry of
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Mary Oliver and Rilka's Letters to a Young Poet Rika's
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Letters and the most important part about what Roca Low
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: wrote the motto of my life is lived The questions. UM,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: it's not about the answers. It's really the beginning of
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: wisdom is knowing what questions to ask. And that author
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: is R. I. L K. E. Letters to a Young Poet.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: By the way, more questions come in about books from
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: people because people are looking for Hey, I'm looking for
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: someone to give me some guidance. The so many books,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: which which way to go, young poet? UM, let's talk
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: about what's changed since you've joined the industry. What do
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: you see as the major shifts? And uh is this
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: for better or worse? So UM I joined the industry
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: in the mid eighties and venture capital, private equity, UM,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: leverage loans, private markets, private credit, these were all things
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: that didn't exist. UM. The disintermediation of capital, the disappearance
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: of all the financial intermediaries has really turned asset owners
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: into capital allocators at a very profoundly different level of
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: the last thirty years. And so I think the fundamental
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: role of the asset owner has changed. And I love
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: to see the movement led by Keith Ambik Share in
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Canada and others across the Canadian European Pension Plan on sustainability,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: on finding ways of using the power of the purchasing
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: power that they have to really think about the importance
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: of investing in ways that ensure sustainability in society. So
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: I'd say the role of the asset owner, the continued
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: increase in capital formation and really um use of capital
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: to more and more productive purposes in society. Financial inclusion
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: a tremendous So this is the democratization of finance and
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: so fintech tremendous shift. So look, the last thirty years
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: have seen these seismic chefs and by far bringing more
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: savers to be able to invest your capital in productive ways.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Is the role that the asset management industry plays. I
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: have to tell you that there's a dark side to
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: the story too that worries me. And that's something that
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Gerald Epstein at Columbia called financialization finance, which has been
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: going on now for decades, for decades and almost parallel
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: path with the developments I just described, where finance has
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: been used by the financiers for their own privilege, for
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: their own profits, and not for society. And look, I
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: am not I am a fundamental free market capitalist. I
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: really believe in the power of capitalism and free markets
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: to improve lives, but this has gone on for way
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: too long, and the lack of transparency into fees, the
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: lack of responsibility that many many in finance feel too share,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: you know, simply charging reasonable fees for their for what
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: has been very average and mediocre performance by the industry
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: as a whole. That would be the darker elements, But
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: at at its core, I think the changes have been
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: positive and again come to the centrality of finance in society.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: So I have you you hinted at something in the
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: last answer, I have to ask you about Keith and
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: lecture ambicure. I can't read my own handwriting. At Canada,
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: we really haven't talked about impact investing or E s
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: G investing. How do you see that developing? How significant
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: of a shift is that looking forward in the next
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: decade or two? Full disclosure, My husband teaches the impact
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: investing classes at Yale And by the way describing my mentors,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: my I am married to my greatest mentor in the
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: in the world. So I am talking about Fortunately, what's
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: your husband's name? His name is bo Hopkins Hopkins and
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: he is an adjunct professor at Yale UM and has
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: really helped develop and encourage kids to think about social
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: enterprise and which really is one of the many guys
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: of impact investing UM. I am a I have followed
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: that part of the industry for a very long time.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: We have a growing and thriving thought leadership ways of
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: portfolio construction around sustainability, environment, social and governance issues. We
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: have an increasing group of clients and prospective clients who
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: are asking us about that. From our family clients who
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: are very interested in impact investing and really increasing the
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: direct investment component of their socially conscious, socially sensitive or
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: sustainable investing, to our faith based institutions and our endowments
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: and UM foundations, and so we have a very thoughtful
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: way we think of building these portfolios. I will say
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: that so far UM we have had more interest than
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: actual commitment of capital, and our belief is not to
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: be dogmatic, but to really meet our clients where they
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: are on these issues. That's not a cop out. That's
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: simply saying that there are investors who would like to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: invest to maximize return and then use that maximize return
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: for social good and there are investors who want to
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: express their desire for social good who they're investing. Both
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: of those things are legitimate in our point of view,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: but we hope to stand out as an institution that
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: has found a way to in to identify productive uses
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: of capital in credit in equities which are not secondary
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: to the return generation need that our clients have. So
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: what do you do outside of the office to relax
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: or or just online? Look? I am a I spent
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of time with the Finance Leadership Fellow, so
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: I am co chair of the of the Overseers Board.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: I'm a moderator at the Aspen Institute, so I really
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with leaders in all you know,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: walks of life at Aspen, helping them engage and think
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: about their contribution, their role in society. I am a meditator.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: For the last ten years, I have deepened and built
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: a meditation practice that really creates this self awareness and
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: the sense of how I engage and this notion that
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: things are impermanent and things are interrelated. Really for me
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: from a leadership perspective, in building a higher partner, high
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: performing partnership culture at Hurdle Callahan, I bring all of
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: those values. I talk about my meditation practice with the
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: entire firm to talk about the way I see human
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: interaction and collaboration and why you know you asked me
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: what I was reading. Now I'm reading two books. I
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: always read more than one book at a time. Hillbillyology
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: is one, but the other is Sapiens, which I highly
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: recommend to anybody. And this notion that uh that Harari
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: has in this book about no, it's not our enterprising
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: nature as humans that set us apart. It is our
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: ability to collaborate. What an extraordinary way thinking about why
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: we have succeeded as a species. The the subsequent book, Homodis,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: is a little darker than Sapiens. If if wh if
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: you when I didn't even know it came out a
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: year ago. Um, it's really picks up where Sapiens left off,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: only it's looking forward instead of back. It's um, I
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: mean look, even Sapiens he looks at agriculture as hey,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: you know, we were just happy, go lucky hunter gatherers.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: But then agriculture that's what we exchange diseases, and that's
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: where we had backbreaking work. I'm not sure I fully buy.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: It's a fascinating book, but it has those elements of
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: darkness really bleed into the next The follow up if
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: you like Sapiens, try Homoda. It's really because Sapiens is
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: a fascinating book. You don't have to agree with his
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: whole positions, but it's certainly stimulating. And I just love
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: the way he puts physics, chemistry, and biology in the
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: beginning into these big arcs of frameworks about how to
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: think about different things. Really really quite quite fascinating. Um
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: let's get to my two favorite questions that of course
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: we ask all of our guests. If a millennial or
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: someone who's just getting out of college where to come
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: to you and say, Hey, I'm interested in a career
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: in finance. What sort of advice would you give them?
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: So I have a millennial who just got into finance,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: and of course she does not need my advice but
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: the classic parent. But I would say three things. And
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: by the way, I love to talk to these groups,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: particularly young women. UM, I say three things. First, be curious, Second,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: be prepared, and third bill lasting relationships. Be curious for
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: me is living the questions. I think people who are
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: intellectually curious about finance can find that there are so
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: many ways to use finance in society. And I love
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: the way millennials appear to have this pretty keen social
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: purpose linked to whatever they seem to want to do
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: many many doing at any rate. I shouldn't characterize the
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: entire generation that way, and so be curious, be prepared.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: There is just no substitute for walking into a meeting,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: to a conversation with a client, to an analyst program
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: without being prepared. And I really believe that people who
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: think they can show up and someone will teach them
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: stuff is just not the right attitude. And finally, this
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: notion of bill lasting relationships, I have found when I
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: look back that yes, perhaps my technical skills, knowing this,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: knowing Matt, knowing you know, being able to synthesize information
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: all served me well. But what has endured, the thread
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: that I can pull through is the lasting relationships is
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: taking the time to understand the people I am working
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: with and to build those relationships, not networks. This is
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: not a cynical view to to using people to get ahead.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: It's really building relationships of trust where you can be yourself,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: where you can say that you were wrong, where you
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: can ask people when you are stuck for help. Interesting,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: and my final question, what is it that you know
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: about the world of investing? Today that you wish you
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: knew when you began in the nineties that the only
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: way to succeed in investing is playing the long game.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: That attempts to try and outwit the market in the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: short term or to time the market in the short
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: term are very tempting because but but so flawed, because
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: you think you know something when all you know is
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: how much you don't know. That's that's quite fast, and
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: thank you Ronji for being so generous with your time.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Ranji Naga Swami. She is
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: currently CEO of Hurdle Callahan. If you enjoy this conversation,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: be sure and look up or down on Apple iTunes
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: to see or Bloomberg or overcast or everywhere else all
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: of our this podcast can be found to see any
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: of the other hundred and fifty or so such conversations
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: that we've had. I've been saying a hundred and fifty
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: for weeks because I'm only looking at what's already out there. Um,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: so we may go through a run of a hundred
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: and fifty over time. But as you folks who listened
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: to the CEE, there's a different one posted every week. Uh,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: be sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: View dot com. You can follow me on Twitter at
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: rid Halts. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: team of folks who help us put together uh this
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: broadcast every week. Um Medina Parwana is my audio engineer.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: Slash recording engineer Taylor Riggs helps us out with production
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: and booking. Michael Batnick his head of research. I'm Barry Ritults.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio