Latest / Brandon Fogal Evolution / #321 - Trent Horn vs. Bryce Crawford: Catholic Tradition vs. Protestant Faith Alone—Which Stands?

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#321 - Trent Horn vs. Bryce Crawford: Catholic Tradition vs. Protestant Faith Alone—Which Stands? · Brandon Fogal Evolution

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  We're going to get in today about the Catholic versus Protestant argument regarding salvation.
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  I know I come to this very, like, this is, out of all the things in the church
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  and in Christianity, this is probably one of the things that,
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  like, confuses me the most.
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  Regarding the Roman Catholic Church, really, to be honest, I have struggled
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  with the Roman Catholic Church in a lot of ways.
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  I've wanted to become Catholic at times in my life.
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  I love the way that they conduct themselves, the way they do church,
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  but I don't agree with a lot of the things that they stand on and they believe in.
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  And one of the biggest things is regarding how we are saved by faith alone.
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  I believe it is by faith alone that we are saved.
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  And I would say like for non-believers, this the issue of like salvation,
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  this isn't going to convince a non-believer one way or the other.
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  I don't think I don't think this issue has to do with people outside the community
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  of faith outside that aren't Christians.
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  I think this is more of an issue of Christians in-house issue,
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  because it's like I think that people come to faith not even on their own initiative,
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  not even on their own ability.
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  I think we can talk all day to somebody that's a non-believer,
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  but our words aren't going to get them to just embrace Christ.
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  Our words aren't going to change their heart. God is the one who has to do that.
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  But I think for us inside the church, us that are believers in Jesus Christ,
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  these are kind of the issues that we can kind of talk through and go through about.
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  So Trent Horn and Bryce Crawford, they got into this just recently,
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  and it wasn't even like a debate. There really wasn't much debate going on.
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  It was more just a conversation and Bryce Crawford hearing what Trent Horn had
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  to say regarding this. But when they got down to the issue of faith alone,
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  this is what Bryce Crawford brought up and then Trent Horn's response.
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  So where's the standard of measure, though, then when it comes to the it depends?
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  Right. So what I would say is that when it comes to salvation,
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  John 3.36 says, whoever believes will be saved, but it also says.
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  Whoever believes in the Son will be saved, but whoever disobeys the Son,
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  it says does not believe in whoever disobeys in John 3.36 will not be saved.
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  So it's not just about believing in Jesus.
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  It is about receiving all of the faith that has been handed down to us from
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  the apostles and being obedient to Jesus and his church,
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  i think where sometimes we might talk past each other is that as a catholic
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  we see the church as kind of as a sacrament to salvation it's not that the building saves us,
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  So when it gets down to, I agree with the, like in that verse in John,
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  like whoever believes in the son will be saved. Who does not obey the son?
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  There's like the same thing of the two sides of the same coin.
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  Like you really don't start obeying Jesus, obeying the gospel,
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  obeying God, unless you have faith.
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  It's like, you're not going to, you can't repent. You won't repent unless you have faith.
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  They're like two sides of the same coin, but the following and doing what is
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  right, what God calls you to do, isn't the mechanism, isn't what saves you.
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  Faith is the instrument that saves you, is what puts you in a right standing with God.
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  But I would even say that the ability to have faith is what God saves.
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  Has to make us alive to even start having faith. He has to quicken us and make us alive.
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  So I would say this is the same issue that Paul the apostle in like what he
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  kind of lays out in the book of Romans.
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  That is probably the most precise place that we can find that he says,
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  it makes it clear that it is faith alone that saves us. He doesn't use that
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  terminology exactly, but he says excluding works apart from the works of the law.
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  And the conversation that the apostles were having are not the same conversations
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  that Protestants and Catholics or Orthodox or any part of any part of Christianity are having.
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  They were they were more focused in on the Jew Gentile. That was the issue of that time.
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  And Paul and Paul saw that people were they thought they were trusting and being Jewish.
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  And then all these Jews or people that converted to Judaism were trying to get
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  Gentiles to convert to Judaism, to undergo circumcision.
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  And that is what saves you. You're trusting in your own works of becoming Jewish.
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  That was the issue that Paul was going against. Most of the people in the first
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  century were fighting against.
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  And I would say that it still applies today.
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  But I think since we have separated ourselves from the Jewish people in a lot
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  of ways, Jews and Gentiles have went in opposite directions.
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  We and then I think that there is not like there's not peace within God's community
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  because we are separated from the Jewish people, because we are separated from
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  those who are naturally the natural branches of God in God's kingdom.
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  So I come at it even from a different angle. I'm not necessarily even Protestant.
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  I wouldn't even say, but it's like if you're not Catholic, they consider anyone
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  that's not Catholic Protestant because you're protesting being Catholic.
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  I just, I don't, I wouldn't say becoming Catholic is a terrible thing at all,
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  because I think there are people that are saved within the church, within God's.
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  In humanity, even in this world, every part of Christianity,
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  people, God's people are in every part of every quarter of, you know, this planet.
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  It doesn't matter what exactly what church you're affiliated,
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  but I think different churches can teach incorrect doctrine.
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  And this is the struggle I have with the Roman Catholic Church because they
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  say we are the true church.
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  We are, and anyone outside of us is an heir. You can, you're pretty much deluded. You, you,
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  And I think that that is, it's a construct that people have built up and made
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  it seem like that that's the reality when I don't think it, I don't think it
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  is. I think what connects us and unites us to Jesus, to God, is by trusting in him.
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  That is what Paul lays out and where, and Trent Horn brings up,
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  the only place where faith alone is mentioned in the Bible is to say,
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  you're not saved by faith alone, which is in the book of James.
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  But what James is arguing at that point is somebody just to say,
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  I have faith, I believe. It's not, it's not that it's, it's a genuine faith.
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  If you have a genuine, authentic faith, you're, you're, it will demonstrate it in actions.
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  So that it's, but at the core, what saves, what puts somebody in a right spot is faith, is trusting.
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  And I think, I think what, what gets tough about this is because it can,
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  I, I see the, the Catholics can almost lay burns on people, like doing more,
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  binding people's conscience by things where God has not bound their conscience
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  by. That's where I see it as,
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  I've always been interested in the Catholic Church. I like Catholics a lot,
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  but it's just these certain things.
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  I think they add weights and additions to the Bible because a lot of what we
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  see Catholic dogma now and what is taught, it barely, in a lot of ways,
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  barely resembles what's in the Bible.
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  If we go just to the core of the Bible, there's so much stuff that has been added.
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  And I'm not saying it's all wrong. I'm not saying they're doing everything bad at all.
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  But it just, it doesn't, to me, it doesn't line up with scripture in a lot of
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  ways. And that's the kind of the struggle I have. But I do believe it is by faith alone.
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  You know, and I think that that is, that's something we should die on a hill for.
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  That is by trusting. It's not by baptism or doing the Lord's Supper or any other,
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  you know, good thing that we do.
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  But it's by faith, trusting in Jesus alone. That is what puts you in a right standing before God.
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  All right, we'll leave it at that. I do this every day, Monday through Friday,
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  around 7 in the morning, around that time. So catch me then.
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  Until then, I hope you have a great rest of your day. See y'all.