Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 147 - The Fall of Verrugo
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And Dr G 0:30 I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians and ancient Roman history podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, Dr G 1:10 and I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 1:13 Hey, hated Dr G, what's happening? Dr G 1:16 Oh you know, just sitting down ready to talk about Ancient Rome in all of its glory. Dr Rad 1:24 We are in an exciting moment, Dr. G, because we've been tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and we are slowly edging our way towards the turn into a new century, which I find very exciting. I don't know why because of course, centuries are arbitrary that, hey, Dr G 1:39 I think it is exciting. Partly because as historians, we tend to periodize things mentally. So it's like, even though it might not just be another year, it holds a certain significance, because we start to think about, well, we'll call it a different century. And maybe there'll be some different evidence coming through and maybe events will shift who knows what we'll discover. Dr Rad 2:04 Indeed, now, if you haven't been listening to the podcast up until now, I highly recommend you go back because we've been talking a lot about the conflict of the orders, which is between these two supposes groups, the patricians and plebeians. And quite frankly, we can't read capital here. Dr G 2:19 It's long and arduous. And let's just say the patricians are probably on the balance still on top. Dr Rad 2:29 Indeed, and the plebeians are, on the whole, not. So Dr G. We're up to 407 this episode, but before we get into that, what happened in 408 BC? Well, Dr G 2:43 if my recollection serves 408, was marked by a little bit of military tribunes with consular power, then that gave way to a dictator and his master of the horse. Dr Rad 2:58 Not without some slappy fighting though. Dr G 3:00 No, there was there was some upset folk amongst that. But nevertheless, it went ahead. And they headed down to Antium, which is south of Rome, but on the coast. And they took back what I think Rome thought was theirs, which was control of Antium. Because Antium had sort of started to get into a little bit of a situation with the Volscii and the Aequians. And although it seems like they were laughing at those guys, at in any case, there seem to be a confluence of these groups of peoples in the south towards Antium. And Rome was not having that they were like, that's gonna, that looks like collaboration. We're not into that kind of thing. Let's go down and put a stop to that right there. And they did, Dr Rad 3:49 indeed, with remarkable ease. Dr G 3:52 So easy that we have no details about the battle. Exactly. Dr Rad 3:56 Which means that I think it's time for us to dive in to 407 BC. Dr G 4:18 It's 407 BCE. What a time to be alive. Dr Rad 4:24 It is now I did. I did give a bit of a spoiler last time, which is that we know that we've got military tribunes with consular power, which means there is a possibility for the plebeians. But once again, I did ruin it by saying that they weren't going to be any elected. So we know it's going to be all patricians. all the time. Dr G 4:42 Patricians all the way down. So we get four of them voted in as military tribunes with consular power for 407. Dr Rad 4:50 Indeed, now I also did let slip that they all have previous experience in this position Dr G 4:56 they do which kind of suggests that Rome whether our animalistic sources are telling us or not seems to suggest that Rome in this period, maybe had some military qualms, and were concerned about things that were going on in the general neighbourhood. So maybe they wanted some experienced players in there. I Dr Rad 5:16 think they had an evil plan. I think Rome was planning to take over the world and by the world I mean, some more tearing Dr G 5:28 things next door at the very least. Dr Rad 5:32 God dammit, I want those things next door. Dr G 5:36 I see whatsoever on that fence. The grass is greener, and I shall have it Dr Rad 5:40 that we mark we mark but by this point, Rome is actually the preeminent power in this area at this point in time. Dr G 5:49 They are they seem to be consistently winning now. At least from what we've seen from the last few years. That wasn't true before. No. Dr Rad 5:59 And like the Etruscans are They're more just there. They're not like, you know, Dr G 6:04 oh, well, let's Look for that one too much. Wait for it, guys. Dr Rad 6:08 Like they did they are there but they're not like menacing Rome really. Dr G 6:13 They haven't come south for some rains for a little while. No, like, anyway, we'll see. We'll see. I'm looking forward to what happens in this year because all I have is a great passage to read out to you from Diodorus Siculus yet again. And in terms of evidence, literally the FastI Capitolini Which I've supplemented as always with Broughton, who I adore. Yeah, so our military tributes are Lucius Furius Medullinus. A Furii. Dr Rad 6:47 Yeah. Now we have met this particular Furii before I believe we Dr G 6:52 certainly have and very recently as well, he was previously consul in 413. And also in 409, which was not that long ago. No, Dr Rad 7:02 and that was the big you and everyone was very upset because a plebeian being actually got somewhere. How Dr G 7:07 How dare they? Very rude. Then we have Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus. Dr Rad 7:17 Another familiar name. Dr G 7:18 Indeed. So he was previously consequent 410. Yeah. And also a military Tribune with consular power in 415. Hmm. Dr Rad 7:28 So he swings both ways. He Dr G 7:30 doesn't mind what you call the position as long as he gets it. Dr Rad 7:35 Oh, yeah. Dr G 7:38 That kind of guy. We have a guy who's praenomen is up for grabs, but only because Livy is wrong. I know. Dr Rad 7:49 Shocking, shocking. So that's fine. Dr G 7:54 Majority of sources for this period suggest that he's probable nomen is going to be Numerius. Okay, but Livy seems to think it might be Gnaeus. Dr Rad 8:08 Well, I mean, isn't that just fitting in with the whole idea that he has numerous praenomens. Dr G 8:18 I have sad news listeners. I have to retire from this podcast now. So we've got Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Vibulanus, okay, previously consul in 421 and military tribune with consular power in 415. So an old colleague of our Volusus friends friends indeed are friends in indeed, yeah. And finally, to round out this group of four is Gaius Servilius. Ahala. Dr Rad 8:53 Well colour me completely unsurprised. Dr G 8:57 Yeah. This guy's back for the second year in a row. Yes. Dr Rad 9:00 But he made quite a splash last year. So yeah, I'm not surprised. I understand that the Romans probably like him very much. Indeed. It certainly would seem that way. Yeah, I mean, Livy's explicitly says that Ahala was reelected because he was just so awesome. Dr G 9:19 It makes sense. I mean, he done a great job being the sensible one of the military tribunes and 408 and was rewarded with his upgrade to master of the horse for being sensible. So everybody knows he's a good egg and are very reliable at this point. Dr Rad 9:36 Well, yes, everyone patrician but sure. Dr G 9:40 ruin the illusion. Dr Rad 9:44 I got my elite goggles on. I'm ready. Dr G 9:47 So that's basically all I Dr Rad 9:50 know. This whole year. All right. Oh, good. Let's get into it. Okay, so this is going to be a little bit confusing, I think for the next we'll actually Probably the next 20 years, but maybe particularly now. So Livy tells me that this is the year in which the truce that room had with they runs out. As I as we've noted that after, you know, quite a lot of shuffling, things have been fairly quiet on the Etruscan front, you know, up until now, like it's hasn't been too bad. And they is definitely a part of that Etruscan northern people. They're not united as we know, they are, they all have their own little thing going on there. But they obviously share culture. They, however, is the one that we keep coming back to probably because it's obviously like the closest to Rome. Indeed. Dr G 10:47 So Veii is considered one of the southernmost points of a Etrurian influence in terms of established city. Yeah. And it's like they do have a sort of remit of influence that goes further south than that to a certain extent. But this is their last sort of big settlement to the south. Dr Rad 11:06 Yeah. Now, the reason why I say this is going to be a bit confusing is that there is there I should perhaps say, questions about the dating of this. So as you highlighted, actually, in previous episodes, the timing and other sources like diet or set we've been seeing for a few episodes, now, it doesn't really always match up with what Livy's is saying. And it does actually say that levy is potentially wrong. It seems like they've maybe tweaked the dates a little bit, because they've wanted things to happen at particular time. Oh, Dr G 11:46 what? interference with the source material? Livy, what are you doing? Dr Rad 11:52 I Look, it's it's probably also the fact that as we know, there's you know, like, not the best source material probably for this time period. So what's the year here or there between friends when the source material is patchy and unreliable anyway? Yeah. So is actually quite likely that the truce, potentially doesn't happen in this year. Dr G 12:16 Like that, as in the truce doesn't run out? Dr Rad 12:19 Yeah, yeah. Okay. It doesn't seem to quite add up. At this point in time. This is what we're dealing with. So let's just run with it. So the Romans want to, you know, find out what's going on and probably renew it, I suppose. And they want to do it in a very formal way. They want to make sure everything's correct. So they're sending out ambassadors and the fetiales strategy. Oh, Dr G 12:43 I think that's a good idea. If you want to get something done properly, it's got to be right in the eyes of the gods. Dr Rad 12:49 Indeed, if you could, perhaps remind us what the fetiales are. Dr G 12:53 The sweet fetiales? Well, we haven't heard from them in a while, and haven't but I suspect that that is not because they've not been doing anything, I suspect, it's because our narrative sources have just sort of passed over them and assume that the reader understands that they're turning up to things. So these guys operate as a pair, usually. And they're very involved in making sure that if a conflict is likely to occur, that the signs are right with the gods, that Rome will be victorious. So they go out and they're looking for things. And usually, if the situation is looking a little bit dire, and it looks like war is going to happen, they'll get pretty dressed up, one of them will, where they're very formal attire, the other one will be a bit more plain, and they'll start doing eating again, sequence. Yeah, you know, a little bit of purple, a little bit of gold, you know, you gotta Look good. And they will deliberately walk towards me enemy territory. And they're both looking for signs, and they're also reciting certain things. So they're making sort of a ritual gesture, everything about the sort of the speaking component of this is really important. If you're a priest, you always wanted to have very clear and precise enunciation of words, it becomes one of the ways in which you communicate appropriately with the gods. So they'll get to the edge of Roman controlled territory, and the enemy territory and they'll recite appropriately be like, you know, this is a situation we call upon the gods, you know, bow down to Rome, etc, etc. If not, war is coming for you. And then they'll proceed into that territory and keep reciting that kind of thing at intervals until they get to the city itself. So ultimately, the ambassadors are kind of like your diplomatic mission, and they probably have gone on ahead to sort of negotiate and work out some terms, and then the fetiales turn up and that's kind of the time where negotiations should have been concluded by now. The enemy should have a good idea that they're not going to make war with Rome appropriately and would respond in kind to the press. Slowly sort of incantations that are being offered to them, if they don't wash alphabets, if the signs are good, and ruin doesn't get the response that's required, it's time sending the armed forces. I think the very worst thing anybody could do would be to kill the fetiales. If they turned up in enemy territory, that would be a huge issue. Dr Rad 15:19 Yeah, that's like killing the Red Cross or something. Yeah. Dr G 15:23 So we don't have a report of that. At least not yet. But I guess we'll find out soon. Dr Rad 15:28 All right, well, I actually kind of love the way that this is all playing out. Because it's very much like the Romans are like, cool. I got to renew my car insurance, better get ahead of that. Because the Romans trotting out with their little band of people. And when they get to the frontier of I guess they're tearing their respective territories, because of course, there has been conflict between these guys in the past. And I think they know very well, where, you know, their sphere of influences are they actually run into an embassy from Veii? Oh, Dr G 15:57 that's convenient. Again, Dr Rad 16:00 I just love the fact that they're both like, Well, Dr G 16:03 wait a minute. Are you coming to see me? Because I'm coming to see you. Yeah, Dr Rad 16:07 it's been 20 years now. Yeah. So they say, Look, would you mind not going to Vegas right now, we'd really like to speak to the Roman Senate first. Oh, interesting. So the Romans agree the Senate agree to say that because apparently everybody knows that they is having some embarrassing domestic problems. Dr G 16:31 Ooh, somebody pooedtheir pants? Well, if Dr Rad 16:35 we've learned anything from doing this podcast up to God, we have learned that room would kick somebody when they're down. And so at least that's what they seem to think about themselves. And so they're like, there would be no honour in dealing with Veii right now, because they're having internal problems. And we respect that Dr G 16:55 as a place that has many internal problems ourselves. Dr Rad 17:00 Indeed, yes. And now, apparently, this is kind of backed up with what we know. Now, as you know, Dr. G, we don't have great sources from an Etruscan perspective. Like, there's some archaeology and you know, there's bits and pieces, and there's stuff that rocks, you know, that turns up in our room and sources or programmers sources, but we don't have like long narrative histories from an Etruscan point of view, which is a real shame. However, it does seem like there was potentially some internal unrest, and that this does have something to do with the fact that the Etruscans do start to peter out. Dr G 17:41 Okay. So as far as we're aware, at this point in time, the last time that we really, or at least the last time, I really remember Veii, it was the issue with Lars Tolumnius. And he's one of the Etruscan kings, and he was his remit was included Veii. So the fact that they lost one of their key leaders, they don't, maybe they've not necessarily bounced back from that in a strong way. Look, it Dr Rad 18:08 could be that but apparently, a trust in society does seem to have been quite classist. And this may have contributed to additional internal problems, as well as the fact that you know, that King got pretty severely killed anyway. But for now, room is like, yeah, no problems. Well, we'll chat we'll chat you know, later, no problems. So now we switch to the other people with a V that we've been talking about, Volscians, ah, the Romans, as we know, have recently conquered a place called Verrugo. Dr G 18:45 But that that name will never not make me laugh, Verrugo. Dr Rad 18:51 Verrugo, I go! So the garrison that they had left behind to hold Verrugo sent a message saying, Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. Yeah. Now, there was a chance that the Romans, of course, could have managed to tough this out, make it work. But unfortunately, the relief horses that they sent just didn't arrive in time, which makes me think that the Romans when they received the urgent message, were like, Can I just finish my snack and I've only got like five minutes left in the TV show. And then I've just got to have a quick shower and change. Oh, my God, where did I put my shoes and umbrella, it looks like it's going to rain and I can't leave until I found my umbrella. But anyway, by the time the Romans show up, the Volscians, busy plundering away after having slaughtered the Roman garrison. That is not good. Yeah. Again, apart from my, my little aside, that actually the reason that caused them to be a bit slow, was to do with of course, the leadership, the military tribunes and this Senate, they had heard That, obviously they needed help, because well, they're the people that the message was addressed to. But they seem to have kind of overlooks the fact that a garrison is just a small force and therefore, they weren't going to be able to hold out, you know, indefinitely. Okay, so they just kind of were they were in a rush. Yeah, they will just go. Yeah, we'll get around to it. Dr G 20:21 Yeah, that's a garrison there. That's what really we have a military presence. It'd be fun. Yeah. Because the Volscii have Dr Rad 20:28 exactly like, Look how easily we defeated them just a year ago, maybe not even a year ago. Dr G 20:33 I see. So yeah, maybe a little bit of hubris, and maybe a little bit of miscalculation, perhaps. Dr Rad 20:40 But of course, such a horrific outcome. Could not be overlooked up today. No, Dr G 20:47 it's embarrassing. I mean, if room wants to say face, they really do need to retake for rugo. Now, Dr Rad 20:53 they really do. And that's going to take me into 406 BCE. Dr G 20:58 Ooh okay. Well, before we launch into 406 vc, yes. Let me introduce you to what I think is so far, the greatest passage of Diodorus Siculus. Oh, please. So he starts a new book, that oh, it comes into this year, okay. And this frames, everything. So he kind of is like putting a nice little present around this new book. So I just want to read the opening to you, which is it, it's reasonably long, but I think it's fine. And then I'll give you a little bit of insight into like the sort of broader politics that are happening here. Okay, so over to Diodorus and I quote, All men, perhaps naturally, are disinclined to listen to obloquy keys that are uttered against them. Indeed, even those whose evil doing is in every respect, so manifest that I cannot even be denied. Nonetheless, deeply resented when they are the objects of censure, and endeavour to make a reply to the accusation. Consequently, all men should take every possible care not to commit any evil deed, and those especially who aspire to leadership, or have been favoured by some striking gift or fortune. For since the life of such men is in all things, an open book because of that distinction, it cannot conceal its own on wisdom. Let no man therefore, who has gained some kind of preeminence, cherished the hope that if he commits great crimes, he will for all time escaped notice and go uncentered. For even if during his own lifetime, he alludes the sentence of rebuke, let him expect that at a later time, Truth will find him out. Frankly, proclaiming abroad matters long hidden from mention. It is therefore a hard fate for wicked men, that at their death, they leave to posterity an undying image, so to speak, of their entire life, for even if those things that follow after death do not concern us, as certain philosophers keep chanting. Nevertheless, the life which has preceded death becomes far worse throughout all time, for the evil memory that it enjoys. Manifest examples of this may be found by those who read the detailed story contained in Dr Rad 23:17 this book. I love that that would be quite the thing to read to, oh, I don't know, all politicians, Dr G 23:26 I think so. I feel like there's a real resonance for the world as it stands right now. And there are many people who would have benefited from thinking about this lesson. Dr Rad 23:35 You know, I'm gonna throw in leaders of large corporations and small ones and medium sized ones to Dr G 23:44 in fact, anybody in a position of power will benefit from this advice, Dr Rad 23:48 absolutely. Parents too, what the hell. Dr G 23:52 So this is whatever is coming up in Diodorus. And it's not going to be really about Rome, I would hazard a guess because he tends to lay it nearly gives them like one sentence every couple of years, and moves on to other things. But this is a really big time for Athens in particular. So in Diodorus is narrative we're in about 404 - 403 BCE, and this means that although the Peloponnesian War is over, we're immediately thrown into the situation with the Spartan oligarchy known as the 30 tyrants. Ooh, let Dr Rad 24:28 me have talks about this. Yeah. Which is pretty Dr G 24:31 bad. Yeah. And that's the thing that's happening. Meanwhile, in other gossipy news, for those who are interested in a little bit of Greek history, the really famous or infamous Alcibiades ides of Athens is put to death by Pharnabazus. A satrap of King Darius in Persia. So that doesn't go well. Also, this is the year where We lose the philosopher Democritus. For those interested in nature and philosophy. He had a good innings, he got to 90, it's not so bad. And also we do get a mention of, again, I'll quote in Italy, the Roman garrison of Erruca in brackets Verrugo. He doesn't know the name of the place. A city of the Volscii was attacked by the enemy, who captured the city in slew most of the defenders. Dr Rad 25:29 This is very true. And that it has been well correct apart from the name of the Dr G 25:34 plane. So correct except for not knowing where it is, what it's called. But yeah, he gives one whole sentence to that situation. Dr Rad 25:46 I love it. Dr G 25:47 So we will say that it's a cliffhanger episode right now. Dr Rad 25:53 Yeah, so unfortunately, I know you're dying to know how the Romans are going to deal with this situation in Verrugo. But I'm afraid you're just going to have to wait to the next episode. Because 406 is so gigantic, that if we talked about it now, you'd be here for like, the next two hours, I think. Dr G 26:09 We certainly don't want to deprive you of that. But we're gonna give it its own two hour slot in the future. Dr Rad 26:14 We will all right, Dr. G. Well, that means that it's time for the partial pick Dr G 26:18 up boy. Miscellaneous ego noise here. It's the partial pick, it is the time where we rank Rome, against its own qualities, the things that it values most. So there are five categories each are possible to get 10 Golden Eagles in so that means if room is doing its very best to be its best self, it'll get 50 Golden Eagles. Dr Rad 26:43 Look, I'm not gonna lie. I feel like we've kind of set room up for failure here. Not a lot happening. And four, seven, certainly not a lot to their advantage. And they've would I think, have had a more interesting score if we'd been able to do them together, but it's just not gonna happen. We're just gonna have to, you have to cop it on the chin. Dr G 27:03 I think there'll be fine. They'll survive. Yeah. All right. So Dr Rad 27:06 what's our first category Dr G? Dr G 27:07 Our first category is military clout? Definitely. No. That is a big no. What they do is what they dilly dally, and they leave their garrison unsupported. Dr Rad 27:21 And they all get killed. Dr G 27:24 Even Diodorus noticed, that's how bad it is. Dr Rad 27:28 Exactly, exactly. I feel like yeah, it being corroborated is reassuring. Okay. Dr G 27:33 So 00 Okay, diplomacy. Dr Rad 27:38 Okay. Now, there is something to work with here. Because the Romans actually seem to be trying quite hard to get along with they. Dr G 27:45 Yeah, I think there is something to be said for them accepting that they will receive those ambassadors from Veii rather than just powering on with sending their own and talking at cross purposes. Dr Rad 27:58 Yeah. And they're also imagining that they are a kind and fair people. Cute. So I Look, I'd be willing to give them an aid for that. Well, I mean, it's some diplomacy. Like we very rarely see this. Dr G 28:10 Yeah. I mean, it's some diplomacy. It's not like they've conceded anything. They've just said, Sure. We'll listen to you. Dr Rad 28:19 But then they were like, Look, we know you're having issues and you don't want to talk right now. So we'll give you some personal time. Dr G 28:26 What more could one ask from a friend? Dr Rad 28:28 Okay, I'll go for like a six. How about a six? Dr G 28:31 I think that's far more reasonable. I can. Six. Okay. The third category is expansion. Definitely Dr Rad 28:40 not. It looks like they're facing some serious reverses. If anything, they've slightly contracted. Oh, they definitely have. Yeah. So that would be a zero. Yep. All right. Dr G 28:51 We're to us now. Yes, good old fashioned Roman virtue is not on display here. I don't think we get enough sort of characters coming through in our source material right now to make an assessment. So I think we have to give them nothing. Exactly. And finally the citizen score. Dr Rad 29:11 Well, Look, they're not technically at war, but I don't feel like citizens would feel great about the whole vertigo situation. I mean, it's their countrymen that are being slain, seemingly because the Senate and the military Tribunes forgot that a garrison is not a large army. Dr G 29:31 Wow. Oh, maybe they just thought oh, who knows? Dr Rad 29:36 I probably more being overly confident in their room and numbness but you know, Dr G 29:42 alright, so it's not a great time to be a citizen. But it's not the worst time there hasn't been like a forced levee. Some people have died, but not a lot of people have died because they didn't send any backups. So Dr Rad 29:57 not yet. But Look, I'm willing to only give it like too seriously, because we just don't get enough information like it's what's to say, Yeah, I'm fine with that. Okay. That means after Dr G that the Romans have finished 407, on a grand total of eight out of 50 Golden Eagles. Oh, Dr G 30:14 now that is, yes, this is what happens when you only Look at a single year without a lot of source material. It's Dr Rad 30:22 true. But you know what it was worth it to hear that passage from Diodorus Dr G 30:26 Diodorus. I I'm like he's given us a really sort of nice sort of moral outlook for what is to come. And I know, although he's not very interested in Roman history, necessarily, that it stands as good advice to all those who achieved positions of power. How do you want to be remembered for your legacy? How do you want your memory to come through in subsequent times? Those things that you think you're getting away with? Now, we'll come back to count against your memory? Dr Rad 30:57 Unless, of course, because world leaders and corporations are failing to do as much as they need to on climate change. History ceases to exist with humans. Dr G 31:10 Yeah, Look, let us pray and hope and take a local action wherever we can to do our best to ward off such a fate. Dr Rad 31:20 There definitely like let's face it, climate change doesn't mean that, you know, if we fail to act enough, which we are, it doesn't mean that humans are going to be extinct like that. And therefore miss deeds will be remembered, at least for our future. Dr G 31:36 They certainly will. And we can we can see the globe changing all the time in terms of its climate. So yeah, and Dr Rad 31:43 the good news is we actually have all the technology and all the science that we need, what we the only thing we're really lacking is action. Dr G 31:52 Action. Yeah, moral leadership. Dr Rad 31:56 Indeed. Well, on that very philosophical note, Dr. G Dr G 32:00 it has been a pleasure to chat as always. Dr Rad 32:13 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. We always like to thank our beloved Patreon but today we would like to give a special shout out to some lovely people who bought us a coffee on cofee. Tina, Jackie and Anne Marie. Thank you so much for your caffeinated thoughts. However, if you're feeling like your currency has been devalued by an evil Emperor, then please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai