Latest / The ROAR Podcast / The ROAR Podcast: Jackie Krutz

Transcript

The ROAR Podcast: Jackie Krutz · The ROAR Podcast

• Lauren Intro: She was trained as a therapist, with a master's in counseling psychology, and years of individual, couples, and family work. Then 2008 hit, and she landed in real estate. Years later, she had a job offer in Texas lined up when her husband urged her to try one more thing first: a Hail Mary, a cold email to the Green Bay Packers. They wrote back within 24 hours. Today, Caroline sits down with Jackie Cruz, who leads development at Tidal Town, the 45-acre mixed-use district just west of Lambo Field. Before Green Bay, Jackie helped build community at Playa Vista in Los Angeles. She started with Playa Capital Company and later became director of experience for Brookfield Residential. She brought that playbook to a project that was testing whether a market like Green Bay could support this kind of development at all. It could. Jackie explains how Tidletown was financed and why it doesn't look like the model most teams use today. She shares why roughly a quarter of the site is free public space and how community ownership shapes every decision. She talks about how Tidletown resets expectations for rents and home prices in the local market and why year-round foot traffic matters more than a handful to game days. She also shares a surprising data point. Many residents leaving their units at Tidletown flats aren't moving out of building. They're upgrading to bigger units in the same building. Plus, she covers what comes next for the last premium parcel on the site. I'm Brice Clinton, and this is ROAR Podcast. Caroline Valvardi: Welcome to the ROAR Podcast. I'm your host, Caroline Valvardi, and with me today is Jackie Kruz, Director of Tidal Town Development for the Green Bay Packers. Welcome to the podcast. Jackie Krutz: Thanks. Excited to be here. Caroline Valvardi: thank you so much for coming on. we're gonna throw you the question that we often give our guests as their first question. And if you can tell us a bit about your career journey and how you got to where you are today. Jackie Krutz: My journey really interesting. I actually started out and wanted to be a full-time therapist. So went to school for psychology, got my master's degree in counseling psychology, and actually was in the world of psychology doing individual therapy, couples therapy, group therapy, and then settled upon working with families with children with developmental disabilities. In 2008, With the drop of the market, ironically enough, I left that job and that career and went into real estate. Which is the reason why Caroline Valvardi: Wait. Jackie Krutz: we went into the recession, right? Is the real estate market. So my now husband, he actually worked in the real estate development. sector and at the time that the market had dropped he just wanted he said you know what if you don't love what you're doing I can find you a job in here they're downsizing but they're always looking to capitalize on people that can maybe do a variety of things. So I actually got hired by Playa Capital Company which was the company that was building Playa Vista. The four years that I was there it just felt like going back to college. And learning all about real estate. So I worked on contract management, some of the new projects that were kind of happening very slowly, saw the accounting and finance side of things, and then worked on environmental stuff. But honestly, what I really loved about it was kind of the community building and marketing. So in 2012, 2013, Brookfield Residential actually bought out Ply Capital Company and started developing. Playa Vista, and that's kind of where my current journey starts. So in there I became the director of experience and oversaw all experiential programming events and overall lifestyle for Playa Vista with Brookfield Residential and did that for I guess about four years. As life has it, my husband and I started having kids, didn't want to live in Los Angeles. and raise a family there. So our options were either Texas or Green Bay, Wisconsin. Green Bay mainly because that's where he's from. Texas because that's where I'm from. I actually had a job lined up in Texas with Brookfield Residential and was going to take it. but then my husband, who's been very influential, I should say, in my career, told me to do a Hail Mary and reach out to the Packers because they're actually building Tidal Town. And everything that I do fits with the vision that Mark Murphy had for Tidal Town itself. So I did it. I actually just emailed him, I emailed my resume, my cover letter, and just Said you could use me. Like, I'd love to help you with this vision for Title Tone. I honestly did this mainly because my husband's like. Yes, you know, this is this is like I want to make it home and I feel like you need to give Green Bay a chance just like Texas. So put that job offer out there. He ended up emailing me within 24 hours. Next thing you know, I'm getting connected to Ed Policy and learning more about the project and then suddenly being flown out for an interview. So essentially my little cold call email resulted in the job that I'm at now. And I've been here since. Caroline Valvardi: Wow, so many elements in there. Jackie Krutz: There's a lot. Caroline Valvardi: One, there's definitely a theme in a lot of these interviews when we ask people about their journey. One is it is not linear and people have so many interesting backgrounds and sports tend to be pretty niche too. And so it's yeah, very interesting here. And but at the same time, I'm sure we'll talk more. But a lot of those skills probably come into play when you're having to deal with all the different stakeholders and projects and the psychology of all that is an interesting piece. And then I also wanted to highlight because at first you just called it ply and I do want to make the differentiation between which we'll get into more Los Angeles versus where you are now in Green Bay is completely different. So that will lead to the next question. just the differences between that. But but I did live in LA for a bit and have spend a lot of time there and have family there. And Ply Vista is an amazing place. So it's cool that that's kind of the origins of where you started too. So Yes, kudos on that project. And yeah, and and leading into the next question, one want to hear a bit about what Title Town is, and then maybe that's a good place to start is kind of talk what Title Town is in the programming and what it looks like today. and then maybe from there talk a bit about those differences between, a sports anchor development like that and what you did with Play Vista. Jackie Krutz: So Tidal Town is a 45-acre mixed-use development just west of Lambeau Field. It Probably twenty-five percent of it is dedicated to public space. So free park amenities, we have a tubing hill, which also converts over to a concert hill. It's called Aaron's Hill. We have High V Plaza, which is a very large area for ice skating in the winter, and then activities in the summer. We have a full size regulation football field, amplified health field that's in the park, as well as Shopco Optical Playground. So really just great amenities within the public space. Surrounding all of it is kind of our mixed use. So retail, commercial, and residential kind of makeup Tidal Town itself. How that relates to I think real estate in general. Whether you are 45 acres with Titletown and you're 460 acres with Playa Vista, it's still a mixed-use project. Now, what's around you is what makes it sports and not sports. So Titletown itself is a sports mixed-use development because the Packers had the vision, call it 15, almost 20 years ago, to develop something to help. Help the economy here in Green Bay, and it just so happens to be right next to Lambeau Field, which is awesome. I mean, everywhere in Tidal Town you have views of Lambeau Field, right? So I think that's kind of what makes us unique outside of that. We're just a typical mixed-use development. I think sports teams have realized that having mixed-use developments associated with their teams, their stadiums brings more vibrancy to sports. sports outside of just game day itself. Right? When you start looking at some of the I'd call it developments outside of stadiums, they were highly focused on restaurants and bars. But the biggest issue that they had is outside of game days, are they even activated? Do people even want to go there? And so I think the idea of creating year-round traffic, foot traffic, and experiences like that is really the future of what sports mixed use is. They've just gotten used to, I think, seeing that in real estate, and now we're attaching it to stadiums. Caroline Valvardi: And I think the big piece, particularly from the public's view too, of understanding what does mixed use actually mean. it's always the focus, particularly if there's public funding involved, which we'll also get into a bit more, but it's the focus on, it's just the stadium or arena. And then, like you said, it's evolved to more the the fan zone or just the restaurants and bars. But that housing piece is a huge piece, particularly there's a, need for More housing supply and that whole piece is pretty interesting. But I think there's still this understanding what mixed use actually is and so you know having Tidal Town be one of those earlier versions, similar to you know, we have the battery and you know people use that as an example too. But I think it's really useful as we head into this kind of like next generation of mixed use. I'm also curious, from your work. With Playa Vista, are there any specific learnings or things that you were able to apply or not apply things that you're like we should not do this once you started working on Title Town? Jackie Krutz: So it's really interesting as I look back at my career, look back at all the work that I've done from a development standpoint, the two projects that are very impactful in in terms of who I am and and what I love about my job. There are two developments that had the vision for building community outside of just the standard retail commercial and residential frame of mind. They actually added a public component, which is what is the core of the community. You know, have Playa Visa, which is 460 acres. They had like 29 parks, all different amenities, all different aspects to it that really brought People together in the outdoors, right? You had large playgrounds, play fields, golf, putting greens, just tons of little areas all within Playa Vista that you can go out there and be with other neighbors, other tenants, commercial tenants, and really just enjoy being outside. That's essentially kind of what the Packers did for Tidal Town: they saw the importance of community because deep down. The core of the Green Bay Packers are their community members, right? They're the reason why we're here today, over a hundred years from when we started, is because of our community. So kind of implementing, you know, public space that really is a give back to the community is kind of so reminiscent who we are as a company. And I just think that Ply Vista also saw that, right? If you're gonna sit there and have a mixed use development being launched into the This. this was a vision that started in the late 80s, right? Playa Vista had a vision of creating community in this way. And that's just stuck with Playa Vista till today. And the Packers, I will say, are probably the first to actually incorporate that community aspect, just like Playa Vista. but they did it, they did it a lot. earlier than other sports teams did. So I think it's interesting to see like just in my career journey is I pick projects that truly have the core piece of community as the reason for what I do. Caroline Valvardi: No, love that. And my background's more community development side and definitely align on that piece of there's such a huge opportunity too, as so many more of these mixed use districts are being created to yes, there's the, profit generation the interest of why some of the teams and other investors and stakeholders are doing it, but it does open up this opportunity to also bring in, what's the local community benefit and you need that too if you're also, buying to get public funding or other public support for these projects. And so I think, yeah, really understanding what that is and what that looks like and listening to, the community stakeholders and being able to integrate that is I'm sure very satisfying too now be able to see it live. 'cause a lot of these projects are still in the visioning stage, but for you to actually see it, I'm sure it must be very satisfying to see us and see everyone using those spaces. Jackie Krutz: Well, and it I also I feel like sometimes the idea of community, right? It's a investing in your community is not something that can happen overnight. It's a long term play. And I think that's you know, that just speaks to who we are as a company, as a football team. We're community owned, right? We're the only community owned team. And so This is on brand for us to do, right? But it's it's truly who we are and what we live by. So we have that, I think, that to ref differentiates us from other teams and why community is important, why we implement and integrate it in everything that we do. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, I gonna ask a little bit about that because that is so interesting, just the way that the team ownership. obviously it probably does in the way that you're speaking about it, but is a big differentiator in the way that these projects are being envisioned and built, the ones that are in process now. do you think that will ultimately make a difference in the way that these projects are implemented or Just like to hear your thoughts kind of around that. Jackie Krutz: Most definitely. I think now that more sports teams are looking at sports mixed use as not just the real estate piece, right? Not just the I've mentioned the commercial, residential and retail component, that they do want to have a a bit of the community, right? And they also understand that when they're building these stadiums and they're building these make sports mixed use developments with it, that they're coming into a certain community and understanding the market around them and what they're delivering to the market is just as important. And the buy-in of it, right? I mean, when you have a lot of public funding that is going to help support these new developments, the community that you're gonna build in has to be invested in it. So it does play a part it and I I have met with so many other teams that are realizing that the importance of driving that community piece in it. Caroline Valvardi: how do you balance and I've asked this of other, particularly the folks who are working on some of the community engagement or public affairs side of things. And my personal interest too is like how you balance the needs and interests of residents. And then, as you're getting deeper into development and and actually construction, and thinking about commercial tenants, but then also visitors versus residents who are living there. particularly when they're competing with each other. what have you seen successful in the ways to balance all those? 'Cause it it's hard to yeah, you can't tie Jackie Krutz: It's Caroline Valvardi: every interest, so Jackie Krutz: Think it's you know, overall it's all about communication, right? And this is Caroline Valvardi: Right. Jackie Krutz: where my here's the counselor, psychologist, and me coming in, right? but it's all about communication. If you have a strong understanding of your vision and what you're trying to bring, and you're communicating that out appropriately so that all stakeholders understand it, and they're also providing their feedback for what they want to see. I think the you know, best developments come when there's Of partnership and communication and understanding of what's being delivered, and it's not a one-sided piece. So, you know, one of the amazing things that we did here in Tidal Town when Mark and Ed were kind of leading the project is they developed both focus groups, right, in the community and said, Hey, this is going to be a space that we want all of you to use. What would you like to see in there? And taking the public feedback in it, where then people felt invested in what we were doing and what we were developing. And I do think that giving people a voice for what they're looking for and making those considerations has really helped a lot. Caroline Valvardi: that's such a huge piece of Jackie Krutz: Yes. Caroline Valvardi: life and particularly when you're dealing with so many stakeholders too. I fully agree with that piece of it, just the importance of communication. And oftentimes communication is the last thing that people when they're working on these projects or through my experience in different roles, people unless you're a comms person, people are like, we don't want to think about the comms, but it's so important and then Also projects like these, it's the context too, like communicating the why. So like you're saying, so people actually understand the why behind the project, because it's it's like a parent or teacher just being No, don't do that. But it's when you actually understand, the why oftentimes is, helps kind of bring that full like, okay, I can get behind that. and maybe it's not immediately, but just reiterating what you're saying around communications, I think is really important and adding the context so people understand because if they don't understand then it's like then why are you doing this or why are we putting public support or public funding behind this thing. it should make sense to people and they should feel like they're getting the benefit of it. and then moving somewhat from that what are the biggest challenges and opportunities with Tidal Town today? And if you can talk about I know there's been I think a couple phases of it and if you're, planning to build out further and what that looks like and some of those challenges and opportunities as Tidal Town evolves. Jackie Krutz: it's interesting because I think the biggest challenge that Tidal Town had, right, is entering into a market that wasn't sure if we could support this type of development, right? That was the biggest challenge. And I think the opportunity has shown that actually Green Bay can support it. And if anything, that the expectations for what the the community can deliver has been increased, right? I it's really interesting because If you look back at the history of Green Bay over the last 20, 30 years, it really highly focused on suburban sprawl and just building more homes to support people and the manufacturing and everything. It wasn't really focused on maybe driving new people into the area, increasing new, you know, opportunities, bringing new companies into the area. So Tidal Town was a bit of a test case and you know. One of the only companies here I'd say in in Green Bay that could, push that through and test the theory were the Green Bay Packers. And obviously biggest challenge was bringing it and getting it approved and getting it started and rolling on it. But the opportunities and what it's developed and created for Green Bay has been an amazing outcome over the last 10 years. Challenges now, I mean, you know, it's it's really interesting because currently, and I find this funny, you know, we're we're at the forefront of sports mixed use development. We're 10 years old, right, at this point, nine technically. But there's so many other sports mixed use projects that are in the pipeline over the next, five years or so, maybe even ten years. And I think the biggest challenge I have is, my gosh, we've just developed, right? The most innovative sports mixed use development. And right now it's like, well, what's next? What what else can we add to this to continue to keep up with you know all the new ones that are coming in the pipeline and keeping us still out there and relevant and still changing and updating. Because the newer sports mixed use developments, they're learning from all of us and then improving it as we go. And we're kind of set. So how do we keep up with this evolution, right? And I think that's the biggest challenge, but also our opportunity for growth is what's our next step and where are we going? We do still have two parcels of land within Tidal Town that need to be developed. One is already slated for residential and and we're currently planning on that. Multifamily and some town homes. But you know we still have this other parcel of land that is is the last piece of it and is probably in one of the more premier spots of Tidal Town. And that's our big question is and that's our opportunity for that challenge that we have, which is what else can we put here to innovate us and keep us, you know, moving forward in the next 10, 20 years? Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, it was a lot of interesting points in there too. And at Seregh, as we're, master planning and still mostly the pre-development stages with projects this evolution and with technology and AI and the immersive experience and it's so hard to know what the world is going to look like in a year, two years from now, five years from now, ten years from now. So you're trying to plan these things, but like you're saying, even the ones that have been built also, there's that element of upkeep and how do you keep them innovative so it's not just you build you take 10 whatever years to build through those phases and you're done it's always that continuous updating and thinking about the needs and interests of community and visitors and all these things so yeah I think that's an interesting element and how do you finance that too which we'll get into In a moment, but I also just based on what you're saying, just as Tidal Town is one of these earlier mixed use sports and entertainment districts that other projects are looking to to learn from and also like telling that story to the public of why in other cities, why should they support projects like these and if there, is public funding or other public incentive or support involved. so can you talk a little bit about what the economic output or impact has looked like for, the Green Bay region and Tidal Town thus far. because I do think that is really valuable, for the public too to understand yet like why should we do this in our city or yeah, so you you can talk a bit about that. Jackie Krutz: Yeah, definitely. So, one of the biggest things, right? Green Bay has always been everyone knew Green Bay because of the Green Bay Packers, and people only traveled to Green Bay for the eight to ten games that took place there. Bringing in Tidal Town has created year-round hospitality, year-round experiences, year-round tourism. There are stages to it, right? Lambeau Field, they started and added the Hall of Fame and added restaurants and added more experiences of Pro Shop within the stadium itself that created, you know, we'll call it at least a weekend worth of experiences that if you're a huge Packers fan or sports fan, you will want to go to and enjoy. Tidal Town extended that by saying, Well, you can do all that, and you can do it on non-football days and extend out into Tidal Town and and coming here just for a random weekend if you want, right? So we've created more of a regional tourism and experiences for people that don't want to just come here for a game, but maybe want to come here and enjoy all the other aspects that people don't think about when it comes to Green Bay. We have beautiful waterways, nature trails, right? The environment is so Midwest, but people don't experience that because they only think about Green Bay as football. So I think that's kind of the biggest thing, the biggest driver, right? Is that three hundred I say 355 days a year of entertainment because it's so easy to bring eight to ten days foot traffic in here for a game. So that's one. That's like probably the biggest driver of why people want to bring in a sports mixed use development attached to a stadium is just foot traffic as a whole. And I'd say this probably is more specific to Green Bay as a whole. Because to be honest with you, right, sports mixed use developments in very large urban cities, they have other challenges that they're dealing with, competition, right? They have tons of competition. It there's new things that are coming twenty four seven. When it comes to rural communities or smaller towns and cities, sometimes the newest development becomes kind of the spotlight of things. And so here Tidletown became kind of the place not only for tourism, hospitality, any of that stuff, but we also reset the product expectations, right? How much we can rent things out from a price per square foot for both commercial and apartments, but then also for sell pricing for our homes, right? Price per square foot essentially we started three to four times as much as what the market had, that we started increasing it and creating more value within Green Bay, where people now believe that, they can come into the market and, you know, have have retail commercial and everything over here. Where previously Green Bay wasn't looked in that way. So we reset that product expectation for many companies. And then we had also more companies take a deeper look into Green Bay, right? We have more land than you do in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago. And if you needed land for new build companies, any of that, we're a great location for it. So this is just starting to this is a long-term play for Green Bay, but we've seen such a huge impact over the last nine years in terms of the number of transplants that are moving here, number of new companies that are coming here, people that are staying here a lot longer than they used So I mean there's a lot of good that can come with the you know sports mixed use development, especially Caroline Valvardi: Yeah. Jackie Krutz: in a rural community. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, I think that differentiation is interesting. They yes, 'cause a lot of these are, and I know Serge our thesis is more on, urban core and things like that. But some of these other projects that are, you have some of the minor league baseball is, more secondary, tertiary markets that are not, necessarily urban core. when you compare them, it's interesting and I think the key piece for something like Title Town where it is more rural is making sure you can bring that density and really being thoughtful so that it is sustainable and you have that foot traffic, which obviously you guys have been able to think about really carefully and are drawing enough people to have that 365 day a year activity to create that economic output too. So I think good point for people to think about. and we talk a little bit about the project financing. So what has the capital stack looked like for title towns development to date, not specific, but kind of the layers because a lot of these projects have the public financing component plus debt equity. So whatever, information that you're able to share there just to give the audience a feel of how was this funded at the time that it was funded, because things are always evolving and now looking at the projects today, will probably look different from how they, have been funded in these earlier versions of these districts. Jackie Krutz: Yeah, so we are very, very interesting in this regards and this is not typical. So putting my little cautionary tell there that we're not typical or reminiscent of what sports teams are doing right now. But a lot of Tidal Town was funded by the team itself. We have smaller, you know, joint ventures with other companies to help finance a lot of the build pieces of it for certain parcels, but for the most part it was all backed by the team. we did receive some TIFF dollars you know, from from the village itself, village of Ashwaban, but for the most part, it was all coming from the team. So not typical whatsoever. We have no public funding that came in in that regard, or public tax funding, I should say, to help support the build of it. And so it was a lot easier for the community to accept this big massive development. Because to be honest, if you've ever been to Lambeau Field in Green Bay, the stadium itself is literally surrounded by residential, single-family homes. I mean, that's kind of what's built around Lambeau Field. So to be able to pop up a huge commercial building, and I say huge, it's huge for Green Bay, right? six stories tall, an apartment building that is also about six stories tall, right in the middle of single family homes, like ranch style single family homes, takes a lot of I'd say, community commitment and approval to do it. And so I think there is less about the public diversity to it because of the fact that we were funding majority of the project. Caroline Valvardi: but even understanding the TIF a lot of the projects are using some version of TIFF the sports and entertainment districts. And so I think there's also an education piece there because it's a very wonky jargon word. So even when we're working on projects now and trying to work on the public side and getting the, larger general public to realize it's not an increase in their tax dollars and helping to understand what that mechanism, actually is, I think is also important. so so yeah, so Jackie Krutz: It is important. Yeah, I mean TIF dollars are important in the sense of, you know, whenever new developments come in, there's you're having to redo infrastructure, right? And a lot of the requirements of these developments is that when you're coming in, you have to re-look of relook at the impact that it has on your infrastructure, whether that's roads and things that you can't see, right? All the underground work, any of that stuff that comes into play with it. But then also it creates new opportunity for tax dollars for the village. So truthfully it's a win-win, right? Some of the dollars that come in help offset some of the costs that need to be done because we're coming In as a new development and all the infrastructure that we're bringing. So there's a lot of education surrounding all of that and why TIFF dollars are important to projects. Because truthfully, I think people don't understand that just because you have a brand new development that pops in here, all impacts right from an urban planning aspect, roadways, electric, all underground utilities, all of that. that is impacted completely and needs to be upgraded with the development itself. And those are things that people don't see. So a lot of that tip dollars help help support and offset those costs when Caroline Valvardi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jackie Krutz: it comes to it. And that's I think what people don't understand. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah. And that's the opportunity is yes, everyone's not gonna agree with every element of how the district is put together, but there are so many elements of these districts that have a benefit that I would think most people would support. newer, better roads and all these things that can come with it as part of that package. So so like you're saying, it's tends to be a little distraction and behind the scenes, but still an important Jackie Krutz: Yes. Caroline Valvardi: element for if you've got people to understand and And try to push for get like why wouldn't you want those improvements in your community? you've touched on this a bit, but when it comes to that public process, what are one or two things that you guys did with Title Town that you felt like really helped push the public support. forward. and I know you've talked about, some of the individual engagement with certain community leaders, but is there anything there? 'cause that's always kind of the challenge of some of these projects of helping understand what, that public benefit and infrastructure is look like. so if you can share, there's understood don't have to go deep, but if there's anything, the learnings are yeah. Jackie Krutz: I think for the most part there's certain things that we do in respect for our community itself and building the relationships is you know, we always talk with our public leaders and kind of discuss plans, vision, any of that stuff. I mean that's first and foremost important is that that relationship and sharing of knowledge. The other next level piece of things is, you know, after talking to kind of the city officials and anyone that is part of the project from an approval standpoint, is we also want to make sure that we host information sessions for the residents that will be impacted. So any project that we bring to the table here obviously still needs to get approved by the village, the city in order to build, but prior to that. That prior to those meetings in which they get approvals for we actually host information sessions. And these are important, right? These it it's for the single family homeowners that are wondering and questioning what's what's that impact going to be for them, that they can hear it straight from us. That I think now that the vision has kind of unfolded, people trust what we do and we are also honest about it from the beginning. Caroline Valvardi: obviously the transparency piece is important. when they can actually see some of the results and things actually happening, when it becomes more tangible is it's always nice. So I wanna make sure we get to a bit on this is the ROAR podcast, so our business intelligence platform s Seregh which is focused on the AI and data for decision making and things like that. So I did want to ask you is how data and AI are playing a role in your work and whether that's measuring what's working or not in what you have built so far or what you're looking to develop or renovate or kind of do next with Title Town. So if you could touch on that just how you're using data AI and and measuring. Jackie Krutz: Yeah, so we have a lot of platforms here that help support data analytics, right? And how we gather data and everything. So understanding foot traffic, where they're coming from, who's our you know, what's the demographic coming here, understanding just from a sales standpoint, right? I mean, we use every single type of data possible to help us make business decisions. I mean Currently one of the projects right now is is, you know, we do ice skating and tubing every single year here. And the data that we have over the lifetime of of our business helps us understand some of the trends that we're seeing, right? Where are we plateauing? Where are we increasing? Where are we decreasing? How can we make business decisions based on the information that we're getting from? people coming here, time of day they're coming here. every single possible thing that you can think of, we have data on that helps drive those business decisions. From a real estate standpoint, it's the same thing, right? Everyone does market studies, I hope they do, in order to understand where they're going to, like what they want to bring and what they want to build. In addition to that, we do some old school marketing things, right? Surveying, understanding what people are looking for, because sometimes the market itself and what studies bring slightly differ from what residents want and what they want to see. So we kind of blend those two together to help us define what we want to do, whether it's in the public space for free programming and events, or what we want to build next. I think our newest project, which is our residential project. The reason for us building what we are building and the mix that we're building is due to market demand, right? And what we gather from all market data that we have. But it it's also looking at and seeing the deeper trends that we have specifically for Tidal Town and the residents around and living here. So I mean we you we use and leverage those two things from a data standpoint. When it comes to AI, I'll just be honest, AI is in everything, right? All the platforms that we use. To extrapolate data and get all of it. It's all embedded in everything that we do. From a day-to-day standpoint, I'll be honest with you, it makes researching so much easier. I it's Caroline Valvardi: Yep. Yeah. Jackie Krutz: right, like everything just seems to be, you know, at your fingertips at this point that AI is just making life easier. To make quicker decisions and get quicker Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, that's yeah. Jackie Krutz: outcomes, right? So that's I mean when I look at both of them, it's you know, it's I think moving communities along, it's moving our jobs along because we have all this data that we can look into and then leveraging AI for some of that stuff to help us, you know, dive in deeper to it. Caroline Valvardi: there shouldn't be the data is there we talk on our data side with ROAR, using the behavioral data too. So it's not just kind of what people say that they're doing, but it's how are they actually spending their money and their, credit card transactions and where you can actually see a swipe. I always use the gym membership example of you say you go to the gym three times a week. But you might be going once a month. So what you say in a survey versus what you're Jackie Krutz: I've got any of the Caroline Valvardi: actually doing and having access to that data too and using the Lvet for the informing and so you're making best decisions you can with real behavioral data too and different data sets. So one question quickly is there anything from the data or surveying or whatever it is that has been surprising or sent you in a different direction than you might have otherwise if you didn't have that data. I don't know if there's anything that jumps to mind or as, some of the newer parts of Tidal Town that you're building was obviously based on some type of data. But I don't know if there's anything that's been surprising or interesting and may have been different from what you might have thought. Jackie Krutz: I think the data surrounding our apartments is surprising. you know, obviously we work with a third-party management company for all of this, and we always ask lots of questions and gather all the data. They're wonderful at understanding turnover, right? People that end up leaving and maybe moving to a different apartment. The interesting thing about the data coming from Tidal Town Flats, which is our multi-family. 152 units that we have here is that most of the people are noticed to vacate. So those that leave their apartment, they're not leaving to go to a different apartment, they're actually leaving to upgrade to a different apartment within Tidal Town Platz. So our percentages of how many people vacate to go to a different unit in the building versus vacating the building completely and going to a different apartment complex is a compared to other apartment complexes. There's not many that actually try to upgrade within their apartment. Once they're done with an apartment, they leave. So what we're seeing is we have more people that are taking or wanting to invest more into the experience that they get living here. So they might have started out in a studio saying, well it's a temporary housing right year lease, I'm good. Then they've upgraded to a one bedroom, now a two-bedroom. I I can tell you that that is a story for at least three people that I've know that live in Tidl Town Flats that started out maybe in a one-bedroom and now are either in a two or three-bedroom apartment there. So that's like interesting data. And then when we start diving into what's causing all of it, our key differentiator, right, which is Tidal Town is a walkable community. You can have everything that you want all in one space that you don't necessarily get with many apartment buildings, especially here in Green Bay. Caroline Valvardi: Hmm. That is super interesting. So before I let you go, but just on the personal side of things, well actually I have two questions for you before I get to the last question. So I have to ask coming from LA to now Green Bay, you have to be, a Packers fan at this point. and I know you're from Texas, so I don't know, yes, when you become so deeply ingrained. Jackie Krutz: Will say that my husband, so I mentioned he is a Green Bay native, has been born into when you're in Green Bay, you're a Packers fan, you're born into it. there's running jokes here, right? if you see any content about Green Bay, some of the funny things are: yes, even on Sundays, you go to church and people are wearing jerseys, right? It's like our standard uniform is Packers gear here in Green Bay. So it just you live here, it's who you are, and I love the Packers. obviously I love the Packers for who they are from a community-owned standpoint and then who they are as an organization. And I love the vision and what they have, in all of sports. So that's one. Two is I'm now married into it. So so yes, big Packers fan that way. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, I asked partly one of my very close friends is a Packers fan. And we lived in Philly together and I'm from the Philly area, but you would always find the Packers bars. whatever your chant is, go pack go, I think it is. So yes, I had to get that Jackie Krutz: Yes, go Peko. Caroline Valvardi: in for for her. but Jackie Krutz: Yes. Caroline Valvardi: last question, I know we gotta jump off, but just from a personal standpoint, what has brought you the most joy or that you're most proud of with Tidal Town? And maybe this is some of what you've already said during our conversation, but would like end on that, joy or pride in in what you've done there. Jackie Krutz: think impact. Impact is, you know, it can be something as small as just one thing that you do to impact someone's life that change their trajectory, right? But Tidal Town has been such a huge impact to Green Bay. the reason I chose this job over the one that was in Austin, Texas, is I felt that Green Bay and I felt that Green Bay needed something to create more impact and grow the city itself. And I really, really loved the vision that both Mark and Ed had for Tidletown, and that sold me. and to be part of that impact and be part of the legacy for the Packers is honestly why I do what I do. Caroline Valvardi: On that note, that is very inspiring too. And remembering the why of especially as you go through can be very challenging projects too. So thank you for ending on the inspiration and congrats on all the amazing things and very helpful to everyone else, I who was working on these projects. So I'm just for you sharing your insights. So thank you for being on the show But thanks again, and we'll be in touch soon.