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A Feast for the Gods · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to The Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr Rad. Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad. Dr G 1:04 And I am Dr G, welcome. Dr Rad 1:08 Dr G, I feel like listeners will have no idea how hard we have fought to get to our microphones today. Dr G 1:15 Oh, dear listeners, we've been experiencing some audio issues. Dr Rad 1:20 We still are experienced. Dr G 1:23 Suffice it to say that we are podcasting in separate rooms of the same house Dr Rad 1:28 and I am standing, which is very strange. Dr G 1:31 Think of the vocal projection Dr Rad 1:34 And I can't hear myself. So this is going to be really interesting. Dr G 1:37 So we have been tracing Rome's history from the founding of the city and it this is a very exciting episode for us, because we officially tip into the fourth century BCE. Dr Rad 1:54 That we do. And to do a quick recap of where we were in 400 BCE, the tipping point, if you will. The main thing that we were excited about was the fact that there was a plebeian elected to the supreme magistracies of Rome, the military tribune with consular power. Dr G 2:15 Such a breakthrough. And I think, if I recall rightly, and maybe I don't, there was more than one, Dr Rad 2:20 No, you are 100% wrong on that. Dr G 2:25 Well, there you go, folks, even historians don't remember things properly. That's why it's always good to check your sources. Dr Rad 2:30 Yes, but yes, we had one who was elected, and everyone was like, this isn't too bad the world didn't collapse on itself. And the other thing, I think to note, in terms of background, we've been talking about this for a few episodes, actually, but I feel it will be relevant to my narrative. Today, Rome is at war with Veii, an Etruscan city to the north. Dr G 2:52 Yeah, this has been happening for a little while now, and we must be, you know, a good ways into what is going to be this 10 year siege. Dr Rad 3:00 Yes, we're getting ever closer. Dr G, to the end of the siege. Dr G 3:04 Edging towards the end of the siege. Dr Rad 3:06 Yeah. So that's a recap. If you want a more detailed one, we actually just did a massive episode where we were kept the entire fifth century. Dr G 3:13 Yeah, check it out. Dr Rad 3:14 Yeah. But otherwise, I'm ready. Dr G, let's go into 399 BCE. Dr G 3:42 It's 399 BCE. Dr Rad 3:46 How's your source material looking, Dr. G? Dr G 3:48 Oh, I have source material. Dr Rad 3:50 Really?! Dr G 3:50 I'm so excited. Dr Rad 3:52 Okay, well, you know what? Just in case it's not as good as you think, I'm gonna let you do the magistracies, because I feel like that's just become your thing. Dr G 4:01 Now, that's a little bit of an ouch from the old Livy lover over here. Dr Rad 4:05 Nothing against you personally. It's just Dionysius has been gone for a while now, Dr G 4:10 I know, but we'll get to that in a moment. Okay, so we start the year with military tribunes with consular power. Dr Rad 4:18 We do Dr G 4:19 Super important. And there is six of them, and I hate to break it to you, I did just go back and do a quick relook at 400 and at least from my sources perspective, there was more than one plebeian as military tribune with consular power in 400 now we could be quibbling about names, but definitely this year, we seem to have a whole spate of plebeians in the role. Dr Rad 4:46 Well, way to go and spoil my fun. Dr, G, I was going to surprise you with the fact that Livy tells me explicitly that there is only one patrician elected to be military tribune with consular power in this year. Dr G 5:02 Oh yeah, the old Marcus Veturius Crassus Cicurinus. Dr Rad 5:07 Yeah, that guy yeah. Dr G 5:09 Or Cicurinus, that's the one that guy, he's gonna stand up. So this guy, this one, sole patrician this year, is surrounded by a whole bunch of really interesting, different folk who do not seem to have patrician names. So we've got, first of all, Gnaeus Genucius Augurinus. We have Lucius Atilius Priscus. Both of these guys, first time in the role. Not a surprise when you're not a patrician. Dr Rad 5:09 Yeah, I could have told you that Dr G 5:16 Marcus Pomponius Rufus, doesn't seem to be a patrician either. Dr Rad 5:43 No Dr G 5:44 Gnaeus or Gaius - there seems to be some dispute about the praenomen with this guy - Duilius Longus. Dr Rad 5:52 I feel like I've heard that family name before. Dr G 5:55 Duilius? Dr Rad 5:56 Plebian though it may be. Dr G 5:58 Yeah, I think it has come up. It rolls off the tongue nicely, which means I must have pronounced it before. Dr Rad 6:03 Exactly. Dr G 6:04 And finally, we have Valero Publius Philo. Dr Rad 6:08 Okay. Dr G 6:09 So all of these guys, all five of these non patrician military tribunes, first time in the role, fresh cabs off the rank. I think we're in that point where, in terms of the siege of Veiii, people are looking for new strategies and innovation. Dr Rad 6:23 Look possibly. But I find it kind of amusing that, according to Livy, at least, it has taken several decades to get to the point where people finally felt comfortable enough to elect a plebeian to be military tribune with consular power. And now that they've had one year with one guy, they're like, we're all in. Let's make it plebeian all the time. Turns out they're great, yeah, exactly. I find that quite hilarious. Dr G 6:50 They just had to try it. Dr Rad 6:52 Yeah, exactly. Now they're like, oh my god. Dr G 6:54 It's really opened a door for them. Now they're getting experimental. Dr Rad 6:57 Exactly, yeah, all right. So apart from the fact that we have so many plebeians in office, the first thing that Livy tells me about 399 is that there had been a terrible winter the year before, which, I think I did mention, and now in 399 it's an incredibly hot summer. Dr G 7:16 Ooh, Unknown Speaker 7:16 Yes.. Dr G 7:17 Oh, a hot Roman summer. Dr Rad 7:18 That's right. I actually quite like the translation, so I'm going to read it out to you. It is noxious and baleful to all living creatures. Dr G 7:25 Oh, god. Dr Rad 7:27 Doesn't sound great. Dr G 7:28 Oh, look. I mean, I was in Rome last year and it was pretty hot. It was a six week heat wave. So maybe they had one of those. Dr Rad 7:36 I feel like they did so naturally, if you have a terrible winter and then a really awful summer, it gets you wondering. Dr, G, have I offended the gods? Dr G 7:49 Is climate change on the horizon? Dr Rad 7:51 Exactly. What have we been doing? You know, I mean, Rome does become a industrial powerhouse, but I feel like we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves with that one. It's probably more likely that they've offended the gods. Dr G 8:00 Yeah, our chances are. Dr Rad 8:02 Yeah. So as a result, they're looking around. They're going, what did we do? I can't figure it out. And so they turn to their old trusty fail safe, the Sibylline Books. Dr G 8:16 Yeah, okay, so the Sibylline Books, just to sort of recap a little bit on that we think that they turned up in Rome in the time of the kings and were sadly mostly destroyed through hubris. And the few books that are remaining are now safely guarded and taken care of and consulted in times of trouble. Now you could also go and see the Sibylline oracle directly. But there's also the books. Dr Rad 8:44 Exactly they decide to go for the books, easier option. Dr G 8:48 Yeah, you never know if she's gonna be available. Dr Rad 8:50 Exactly. Now, we have actually mentioned this before. It seems like there are some guys who are kind of in charge of the books, or stuff relating to the books called the duumvirs. They've come up before, I believe. Now, those of you who studied places like Pompeii will know that a duumvir is the head magistracies in like, a smaller town like Pompeii, but in this case, we're not really talking about that exactly. 'Duumvir' just literally means like the two men. Dr G 9:22 Yeah, the two men who are looking after those books. Dr Rad 9:25 Exactly. So they decide that what they need to do is hold a new religious ceremony. Now I'm building up to this because I'm not entirely confident that my tongue is going to get around it the lectisternium. Dr G 9:43 Oh, yes. Oh, look, you and I, our sources are in sync in some respects. Dr Rad 9:47 Okay, so apparently it's the first one that was ever held in Rome, and it goes for eight days, and there are sacrifices to Apollo, Latona, Diana, Hercules, Mercury and Neptune. Now, listeners might be wondering, well, what is involved in this? Exactly? Apparently, the name comes from the idea that there are couches involved and food spread out for the gods, because, essentially, the Romans put out some couches, put down some images of the gods on those couches, and spread out a nice little banquet for them. Dr G 10:30 A delicious divine feast. Dr Rad 10:32 Exactly, exactly they are invited to partake in this sacrificial feast. Basically, we think it comes from Greek origins. The Romans being influenced by the Greeks because they have something kind of similar. I think the Greek versions are called the theoxenia, which is again basically a banquet for the gods, with their images spread out on couches and stuff. Dr G 11:03 It's a delightful image. And I wonder if this might be a good time to take you a little bit through what I have of Dionysus of Halicarnassus, because framing up the context for this whole situation, I think is really important. Dr Rad 11:19 Yeah. No, please tell me. Dr G 11:21 So Dionysus of Halicarnassus does not agree with Livy. Dr Rad 11:24 Oh okay, fine, Dr G 11:25 Sadly Dr Rad 11:27 But you just said we were in sync. Dr G 11:28 Well, in the sense that we've got severe weather on the cards Dr Rad 11:31 Ah okay Dr G 11:32 but we have very different types of severe weather being put forward. Dr Rad 11:37 Let me guess it was a great winter and then an even better summer. Dr G 11:42 It was a very severe snowstorm. Dr Rad 11:46 Okay Dr G 11:47 And the snow apparently was higher than seven Roman feet. So we're talking like an epic snowfall. Dr Rad 11:57 Yeah, you'd be trapped in your house with that Dr G 11:59 Oh, not only that, your house would collapse. Dr Rad 12:02 That's even worse than I imagine. Dr G 12:03 It's disastrous. So a Roman foot is about 29 centimeters, or about, I think, what does that make it maybe, maybe a foot, a modern foot, a Roman foot and a modern foot might be similar in length, and so we're looking at a depth of over two metres worth of snow, or about six foot, nine and a half inches of snow, at least. And think about Rome and its situation on some small hills, but mostly surrounded by plains. This is a very unlikely geographic location for such a high level of snowfall and it is reported to be completely unprecedented, either in source material before or records afterwards, at least down to the time of Dionysus of Halicarnassus. So they talk about this as like an exceptionally terrible snow event. And the consequence of this are massive, because with this much snow, you basically have issues with your herds. Cattle die from frostbite and things like this. The fruit trees, which might be starting to put on new growth, basically wither up and don't produce anything for years to come. They have to recover from that. People think those fruit trees are dead. Dr Rad 13:26 My god. Dr G 13:28 And when the snow melts, it's so heavy that it actually breaks structures. So there's this massive issue. And to compensate for this, the idea of putting forward a lectisternium under these conditions, so some sort of banquet with sacrifices to the gods, when actually the township of Rome itself must be on the brink of famine and under pretty severedisaster circumstances already, the idea that they're giving what little they have left to the gods in order to try and rectify this situation, I think, speaks remarkably to how strongly the Romans feel about their relationship with the gods and how they have to manage that, and how shocking this whole moment must have been for them to be like, Oh, we really need to do something different in terms of our ritual practice in order to compensate for whatever is going on here, because this was outstandingly terrible. Dr Rad 14:30 Wow, that's so sad. I didn't think about the fact that they're offering food to the gods, and they probably have almost none. Dr G 14:35 Yeah, so sad. Dr Rad 14:37 I know. Well, apparently when we see the lectisternium showing up in early Rome, it is often in connection to things like pestilence. So and we've talked before about how these environmental issues can obviously lead to wider issues with food supply and general health. They're obviously trying to tickle. All the boxes, because they are including most of the major gods I could think about. Dr G 15:05 So yeah, so those connections of these gods seem really important as well. So Apollo has a connection with healing, divination, music Dr Rad 15:14 Exactly Dr G 15:15 Also has an Etruscan legacy as well. So he was well known throughout the region, not just from a Greek perspective. Latona is the goddess of the night, and so she is often considered to be synchronous with Leto Dr Rad 15:33 Okay Dr G 15:33 Also known in the Etruscan and obviously, Diana and Apollo have a bit of a thing. Dr Rad 15:42 *singing!* Dr G 15:44 Exactly. So this idea that there is a whole range of these gods involved, including Mercury, bringer of culture, relationships with the shepherds, maybe try to get something right with the herds here. Dr Rad 15:58 And also maybe trade, you know, getting supplies, resources, making sure they're not, you know, totally cut off. Dr G 16:05 Yeah. And this connection with trade might also feed into the connection with Hercules, who's also associated with cattle breeding and trading and things like that, true. And then we also have Neptune. Now, why Neptune is involved might just be because of the melting snow, because otherwise, I'm not sure why he's there. Dr Rad 16:24 Well, again, if we go back to trade, how do you trade? By ship. Dr G 16:29 Oh, yeah, it's the fastest way to travel. Dr Rad 16:31 Exactly. So it could be that, but who really knows? So don't spell that out for us, unfortunately. Dr G 16:36 That's true. Now, what is interesting in Dionysius' account, because we've only got a fragment. Dr Rad 16:43 Better than nothing! Dr G 16:44 Better than - ooo I've got something to talk about, Dr Rad. He mentions a source on this called, referring to a guy called Piso, who is an ex censor who wrote a series called the 'Annales', which is, you know, off the face of it doesn't sound particularly unique. Writing 'Annales' is the sort of thing that anybody who's anybody likes to do. Both Livy and Dionysius or Halicarnassus are essentially writing annales - a year by year account of things. Dr Rad 17:15 And it's essentially what you and I are doing. Dr, G. Dr G 17:17 Oh yeah, we're not unique either. Oh no! Dr Rad 17:20 No, but you know, we're anybody who's anybody, that's a good thing. Dr G 17:24 Oh, that's true. We're an illustrious category. Dr Rad 17:26 Exactly. Dr G 17:26 Now, this is a reference to somebody who we do know, a guy called Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi. Now he was a Roman senator and a historian in the second century BCE, tribune of the plebs in 149, consul in 133 and then censor in 120. Now,the reason why it's worth mentioning those dates is because he's very much tied up in the whole situation with the Gracchi later on. Dr Rad 17:59 Oh, okay. Dr G 18:00 So it's interesting that we're starting to see callbacks to writers that are very much invested in things to do with the agrarian crisis that then is also placed back in time into this like fourth and fifth century period as well. Dr Rad 18:19 Absolutely, now Livy does go a little bit crazy, Dr G. Apparently, because Piso, the original source, might have added on a bit of extra detail. And this, apparently, is something that Dionysius, your friend, tells us, Dr G 18:35 Oh, yeah. Oh. Dionysius has some, has some beautiful detail from Piso, yes. Dr Rad 18:41 And so he says how it wasn't just the gods having a fun old time, it was everybody in Rome, because they were just opening the doors. They were throwing open their homes and saying, Come on in. Join my party. Doesn't matter if I know you. Doesn't matter if I don't. And it was time to make up with people you might have been fighting with, and you weren't allowed to start any new fights. You weren't allowed to start any lawsuits. Prisoners were released forever, it seems because the gods seem to be smiling down upon them. Dr G 19:12 Hmm, are you saying that Livy doesn't believe this? Dr Rad 19:15 I think Livy does believe this. I think it's Dionysius who mentions that this was something that Piso talked about. Dr G 19:25 Yeah, he does, but he doesn't dismiss it. He just sort of recounts it. Dr Rad 19:28 It's the academic that're dismissive. I think they're looking at all the other lectusternium and saying, This doesn't happen. Oh, come on, guys, there's no party vibe. There's no Block Party. Dr G 19:38 Let Piso have his moment in the sun, Dr Rad 19:40 We're shutting it right down. Dr G 19:42 He wants to call back to some beautiful, glorious golden era of Rome, the proper Republic, where things were done, right. Dr Rad 19:51 Well, look, I think that Livy went even further than Piso. Yeah, I think that's what the academics are assuming that Piso added a little bit of extra detail. On and Livy s like, you know what? I'll take your extra detail and add some. Dr G 20:04 Okay, well, that's very interesting, because it does seem like it's a time of severe crisis. And perhaps a proportionate reaction to crisis is to really lean into - in a sort of nihilistic, fatalistic kind of way - lean into life itself and celebrate the fact that you've survived. So to me, this level of excess with like freeing of slaves and everybody's partying at everybody's house doesn't necessarily sound unlikely given the severity of the circumstances. So if we buy into - it's beena really severe natural disaster, and it sounds like we've had a couple of those in recent years as well - that on the back of some other weather conditions, and potentially on the back of a really hot summer where they've now got this really severe winter that people are kind of open to embracing the fact that they've gotten through this, and maybe that's led to some hedonistic behavior. Dr Rad 21:06 Look, I'm not entirely discounting the partying. I think it's specifically the freeing of prisoners. Dr G 21:12 Yeah, nobody would ever do that. Dr Rad 21:14 Yeah, I'm not really sure about that. Yeah, the idea that it was also like a gigantic bloc party. It might be a time when people are, you know, putting aside their grudges and that kind of thing. But whether it was, you know, like Rome is just having, you know, one big old shindig, it's like, well, maybe not. Now, Dr G, if that's all we have to say about this banquet for the gods, I've got something else for you that's heating up just like this horrible, horrible summer. Dr G 21:42 Oh, what is it? Dr Rad 21:44 It's the war with Veii. Dr G 21:46 Oh, no. Is it still happening? Dr Rad 21:48 It's definitely still happening. Dr G 21:50 Oh, that siege. When's it ever going to end? Dr Rad 21:52 I know the Romans are tinkering around with their siege equipment. You know, I don't really know anything about construction, so I'm going to imagine they're tightening something, tightening some lug nuts. No idea what that is. Dr G 22:05 You know, making - covering the rocks that they're about to throw with a little bit of animal faeces to make them less pleasant when they hit the target. Dr Rad 22:12 Exactly, writing insulting messages on the rocks. Dr G 22:15 Exactly. Dr Rad 22:16 Yes, when, all of a sudden, they're attacked from different sides by the people that have joined Veii: the Capenantes and the Faliscans, as well as Veii. Dr G 22:27 Wow. Okay, yeah, so they does have some allies. These are the people, if I recall rightly, that are slightly further north, who realize if Veii falls, the domino effect that they're worried about. Dr Rad 22:38 They have twigged, yes, that's right, that's exactly what's happening now. This has happened before, because when the first realized that we know that the Romans got caught in a very unpleasant sandwich between their enemies, and it didn't go well for them, however, that was, of course, entirely down to their poor leadership, Dr G 22:54 I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, the I'm not coming to help you unless you ask. And it's like, well, I'm not asking Dr Rad 23:02 This time, they learnt from history. An example of someone learning from history. Can you believe it? Dr G 23:08 It's possible, my friends, it's possible. Dr Rad 23:11 So as a result, when the Romans found themselves, once again, penned in, help was immediately sent from the main camp, and the backups were also able to assault the Capenantes from behind bit of their own medicine. The Faliscans were naturally terrified by this sudden attack, and the Romans decided to really push this advantage home. And with a sally, they finally sent them running away, and the Romans didn't let up there. They continued to follow them as they ran screaming in the other direction, slaughtering them, left, right and center. Dr G 23:47 Ahhh, I ahh suppose it's war. I mean, that's unpleasant, though. Dr Rad 23:51 I think we're on the Roman side here, so I think we're supposed to be happy about that. Dr G 23:54 Yay. Dr Rad 23:57 Then some Romans also decide, why not raid some territory of the Capenantes. Dr G 24:03 Well, as you do naturally, since you're there. Dr Rad 24:05 Exactly. And whilst they were doing that, they happened to run into the army. He was chasing us for the Faliscans, and so they join in killing the surviving Faliscans. Dr G 24:13 Oh, okay. Dr Rad 24:15 Yeah, the people from Veii take a look around at this situation and say, You know what? We might just go back into the city. Dr G 24:22 You know what? This siege is, fine. I'm gonna live inside the walls. Dr Rad 24:25 Thanks for the help, guys. But you know what? I'm a bit tired. I think I might just go back behind the walls. Dr G 24:30 I'm gonna retire to my chambers and think about my future with the Roman camp outside. Dr Rad 24:35 Exactly. Unfortunately, of course, they have - they naturally - whilst they were fighting, the Romans - had the gates to the city closed so that the Romans couldn't just run into the city. Dr G 24:44 That's very clever. Dr Rad 24:45 Yeah. Unfortunately, what this means is the people who decide to retreat are trapped. Dr G 24:50 Oh no. Dr Rad 24:51 I don't say that again because I just hit the microphone with my nose. They are trapped. Dr G 24:55 Oh no. Dr Rad 24:57 And unfortunately, many of them are also killed before they managed to get inside. Dr G 25:02 Oh, okay, this sounds like it's a pretty stellar win for the Roman forces. It doesn't sound like they've broken the siege at all, but they've really put a dent in morale and confidence. Dr Rad 25:13 It's that slow drip of psychological terror. Dr G 25:17 With neighbors like these, who needs enemies. Dr Rad 25:19 Exactly, and the reasons why the people of a were slow to let the soldiers in is, of course, they didn't want the Romans to penetrate their city, so they were very slow about opening the gates. Dr G 25:30 Wow, I can only imagine the sort of horrified conversations that would have happened inside the walls, because people are basically locking out their own relations and then watching them get slaughtered. Dr Rad 25:42 Yeah, they're saying really sorry, guys. We know that you're tired, we know that you want a nap, but we just can't risk it. Now, that's basically all I get about the war with Veii for 399 but if we switch our attention back to the city itself, it's time for some more elections, Dr. G. Dr G 25:58 Ooh, elections. Oh, that's exciting. Dr Rad 26:00 Getting ready for next year now, naturally, the patricians are not at all happy at this situation where there are more plebeians in power than patricians. Outrageous. Dr G 26:11 Not only that, it sounds like the plebeians as military tribunes with consular power, have had some real military breakthroughs, like they have just run down the enemy in a couple of different directions. And pen some of the Venetians, or the Veii- and Veiantes, I should say - Venetians will make us confused about Venezia. We shouldn't do that. Dr Rad 26:30 And blinds Dr G 26:31 Yeah, the people of Veii trapped on the outside of their own walls. So it seems like they're doing okay without the patrician leadership in the top position. Dr Rad 26:42 But notice that there are no named commanders in any of that. Dr G 26:47 Well, is that, because the patricians who write down history would never deign to give them any credit? Dr Rad 26:55 I'm entirely in agreement with you. Now, the reason why they have a problem, of course, is that they thought this whole situation was meant to be about sharing power, because sharing is caring. But the plebeians are being so greedy, taking over all the offices, it's like they're running the state. Dr G 27:14 Yeah, you wouldn't want to look at the previous year and the way that they've all been stacked with patricians to then be like, You know what? What is fair? Dr Rad 27:23 Fair is when the patricians get their way. I thought that was very clear. So the patricians decide, All right, guys, we can't be sleeping on this one. We've got to really put our best fancily shoed foot forward. And they therefore select the absolute best candidates that they have on offer, and the plebeians could not resist. They were just so sexy and so arrogant. Dr G 27:55 Have you seen the way he lifts his toga above his knee? (growls) Dr Rad 28:01 And they started campaigning for the patricians as though it was actually a plebeian candidate, because they're idiots. Of course, teamwork equals dreamwork, guys. Dr G 28:13 I am unhappy about this turn of events. Dr Rad 28:15 I know plebeians are fools. Now, naturally, there's probably also something going on here with the whole religious angle, a terrible winter pestilence, which was just mentioned summer. The gods are upset. Plague is clearly coming after all of this stuff, the Sibylline books indicated as much, and we can link it all back to the fact that they were plebeians in office. Dr G 28:46 Oh, okay. Oh, that's the explanation. Dr Rad 28:48 That's the explanation. I mean, everything's been completely fine. There has never been a plague or a pestilence while patricians were in charge. Dr G 28:55 Yeah, I mean, who would be surprised at this turn of events? Soon as you put plebeians in power, what do you got? Disaster. That's what you got. Dr Rad 29:04 That's exactly it. Dr G 29:05 Now the gods are unhappy. Dr Rad 29:06 Yeah, well, that's what the patricians have been saying all this time, haven't they, Dr. G? They were like - Dr G 29:11 It's true. I mean, at least they're consistent. Dr Rad 29:12 Yeah. That's why they didn't want them to have the consulship, like, we can't. It's too risky, sacred. And now look what's happened. We gave you something else, and even then you screwed it up. For everybody. Dr G 29:25 The gods are so disappointed in us that we're just going to have to go back to having some patricians in power. Dr Rad 29:30 That's pretty much it. So the plebeians are basically fainting in the streets. They're going, oh my god, they're blood. It's just so blue! I can't concentrate. And they were also really scared that something much worse was coming their way, because the gods were clearly ticked off with them, and so all patricians were elected for the following year. And that is all I have from Livy today. Dr G 29:52 Oh interesting, I know well, so there is some nice synergy, I think, between Livy's account and what Dionysius of Halicarnassus are bringing to the table. Admittedly, we've only got a fragment of Dionysius, and the idea of there being like the terrible summer versus the terrible snowstorm, seems like you know, minor details, but maybe they had both that would explain some of the tragedy here. Dr Rad 30:17 I think we can all agree we're not going to time travel back to 399. Dr G 30:22 Oh, yeah, no, I don't think I want to experience that weather system. Whatever was going on. There was a bit of a problem. Dr Rad 30:29 Cause tonight we're gonna party like it's 399! Dr G 30:34 I mean, I'm happy to follow Piso on this. I mean, like, let people have some fun for a change. Like, why? Why would that have to be wrong. I mean, come on. Admittedly, I haven't delved into the scholarship on this, but I'm sure people have very good reasons why they they want Rome to be a more grumpy place than it currently is. Dr Rad 30:50 I don't think they're denying the celebration or anything. I think they're just questioning whether it was quite as extreme as Livy points out. Dr G 30:57 Would you really free people? Would you really just let anybody into your house? Dr Rad 31:03 It kind of seems like a recipe for disaster, that when things are going badly, you're like, I know, let's let the criminals loose through the street. Dr G 31:11 Well, it's not even that they're criminals necessarily, at least in the account that we get from Dionysius. It's slaves being manumitted. Dr Rad 31:21 Really? I was wondering why you said slaves earlier. Okay, interesting. Dr G 31:25 It's not necessarily criminals at all, unless you consider that debt bondage could be one of the ways that you end up enslaved, which is possible and is considered a crime, but is a crime of circumstance, not a crime that you really go out of your way to commit. Dr Rad 31:40 Talk about criminalizing the poor, Dr G. Dr G 31:42 Yup exactly. We see it all in Rome. Whatever you thought about today, we've seen it in Rome. So we've got this lectisternium, and that is apparently the direct response to the Sibylline Oracle, suggesting, like, this is the course of action to take correct. So that's the Greek connection that you're talking about as well. So this idea that they're borrowing from Greek ritual rites in order to see if that will make a difference. In this case, the idea that the couches of the gods are sacred is really important. So one of the things that we understand about the way the Romans were practicing religion in this period is that if you had a temple, and there would have been very few at this point in time, but the structures that you built to house statues of the gods weren't the only part of the building that was very important. The couch itself, where the statue would sit, was also considered to be quite sacred. So this is a sacred banquet of sorts, because the couches involved have been consecrated in the same way that the buildings have been consecrated. So I think that's an interesting detail that comes out through this as well. I think the choice of the gods is really interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it, but there's some figures here that we haven't really encountered very much before, but Dr Rad 33:01 I think it's all guesswork, to be honest. I mean, we know the names and people have suggested, well, maybe it's because of this, maybe it's because of that, but we don't have anyone saying it's because of this. Dr G 33:10 Yeah, well, exactly, but it does give us a sense that the divine landscape that the Romans are operating in is broader than what we've previously really encountered in our written source material. Like we do know that there is a whole series of indigent Latin gods and sort of Italic gods, and they sometimes start to morph into these Greek figures that then become Roman figures. And this is already well happening by the time that we get to 399, so things like Apollo and Diana, Hercules, Mercury Neptune, these are all very familiar from a different context, cultural context. And maybe that's part of the connection here as well, is that they're taking from Greek rights, but they're also prioritizing gods of their own that have a syncretism and overlap with Greek gods as well. Dr Rad 34:07 All right? Dr G, well, with that being said, I think it's time for the Partial Pick That's right, listeners, this is the part of the episode where we get to rate Rome's performance. How do we do it, Dr G? Dr G 34:22 Well, there is a potential for Rome to win 50 golden eagles. So first of all, we have the five categories. They can score up to 10 in each category, and we will see how they go. Dr Rad 34:37 All right, what's our first category, Dr G? Dr G 34:39 Military clout. Dr Rad 34:40 Okay, I think we have something to work with here. Dr G 34:43 Do we? Dr Rad 34:45 excuse me? They escaped from a very dangerous enemy embrace. Dr G 34:52 It sounds like they chased down people and murdered them Dr Rad 34:56 After being attacked themselves. Dr G 34:59 Fine. I think in this sort of situation, obviously, this siege has been going on for a while. This is by no means illegitimate war tactics. As far as the Romans are concerned, or their neighbors, if the situation had been reversed, we could almost guarantee that their neighbors would have behaved in the same way. I would say that this is probably a five. Dr Rad 35:20 Yeah, I think it's a five. It could have been bad. I mean, they could have been completely pinned in and not able to break out. And they managed to do it. And not only that, they managed to scare the little pence of those guys. Dr G 35:32 Yeah, this does set things up for a poor morale outlook for they and their allies heading into the next campaign season. Dr Rad 35:40 This is true. All right, what's our next category, Dr G? Dr G 35:43 Our second category is Diplomacy. Dr Rad 35:46 Hmm, don't really think so. Dr G 35:48 I'm gonna say zero, Dr Rad 35:50 Yeah, nothing's happening on the outside and nothing's happening on the inside. Dr G 35:55 Any hints of diplomatic activity here, Dr Rad 35:58 Although, again, I would say not their fault. Do did they try? Well, what are you supposed to do when you're being attacked? Make them a mixtape. Dr G 36:08 I mean, you could. These are some songs that remind me of you. Dr Rad 36:13 All right, let's move on. What's our next category? Dr G 36:15 Expansion. Dr Rad 36:16 No. Dr G 36:18 They're trying, but no, yeah, they're not really gaining territory. They're doing some raiding, but it doesn't sound like they've secured anything. So that's a zero, yeah. That leads us into Virtus. Dr Rad 36:29 Unfortunately, even though they apparently did so well in the battle, we don't really have any moments that are singled out. Dr G 36:37 Well, yeah, and because we don't have individual names attached to some of these military feats, we don't get a chance to really see virtus embodied. And the thing with virtus is it is about the person and the way that they're embodying manliness from a Roman perspective. So if you don't have a name attached to a commander or somebody in the field, doing the thing, then we can't be sure about the virtus involved. Dr Rad 37:05 Yeah, exactly. And that leads us to our final category, Dr G Dr G 37:09 The Citizen Score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen? Dr Rad 37:13 I'm so torn for all the reasons we've discussed, there's a party, but it's a party because things are really bad. Dr G 37:19 It's a party for those who survived and party, and everyone's invited. But, you know, the cattle or died, that's not great. It seems like the pestilence must be on the way. Dr Rad 37:30 But it's 399, whoo whoo Dr G 37:34 And I suppose Dr Rad 37:35 Plebeians in power. Dr G 37:36 Oh yeah, that that is, that might be the saving grace here. Dr Rad 37:39 Failing miserably. Dr G 37:41 I don't think they're failing miserably. Didn't they have huge military success. Dr Rad 37:45 I think I just told you that all of this disaster is because of them, so... Dr G 37:49 Oh, I see, taking the patricians' side are we? Dr Rad 37:53 Well, is there any other way to look at things? Dr G 37:58 Okay, so the citizen score? Yeah, I'm focusing. I'm focusing. Is there anything good here for citizens? And I think the fact that we've got five of the six military tribunes with consular power coming from the plebeians, and they perform well in the battlefield despite what other propaganda might say about the failures of this year, and the need for patrician leadership only. Dr Rad 38:23 It's not propaganda when it's the truth. Dr G 38:26 I think we can say maybe about a three or a four for citizen score, just because they've got some representation in there, and the representation seems to go well, Dr Rad 38:34 That's true. Dr G 38:34 Otherwise, it's not a great time, because obviously these natural disasters seem to be quite severe and are leading to flow on consequences. Dr Rad 38:42 But the partying and the slaves and the prisoners, Dr G 38:45 Yeah, I mean, but you know, it's like when you go to a wake at a funeral and it's like, sure Dr Rad 38:51 Ouch! I don't know how the gods would feel about you characterizing their banquet in this way? Dr G 38:56 I'm just saying there are times. There are times when people come together, and maybe it gets rowdy, depending on the wake. It really depends. But it's, it's a celebration through pain. And I think the same sort of situation is going on here, Dr Rad 39:13 Ancient Rome, smiling through the pain. 399 BCE. Dr G 39:18 Put that on the headstone. Dr Rad 39:19 Oh yeah, that's gonna be our next T-shirt, alright because not at all in niche to have it pinned down to one yeareveryone else has forgotten All right, so I agree with you. I would say I think probably a four. Dr G 39:30 Okay. Dr Rad 39:31 Okay, which means, Dr G, we have ended up with a grand total of nine Golden Eagles for Rome. Dr G 39:37 Nine? Didn't even crack double figures. Dr Rad 39:41 Were you really expecting more when there were plebeians in the majority for the first time? Dr G 39:47 No comment, really? Yeah. I feel like, you know, the patricians can stick it up their arse. Dr Rad 39:51 Look. I kind of think of this like in Australia, the first time we had a female prime minister, it didn't go so great. And... Dr G 40:00 Well mostly because everybody decided that they really needed to be misogynistic all of a sudden. Dr Rad 40:04 I'm not denying that, but I'm just saying, you know, when you're the first I think sometimes things go badly. Dr G 40:11 Wow, you got a feel for the guy from 400 then. Dr Rad 40:13 Hey, the good news is we're back to having all patricians all the time next year. Hey, hey, hey! Dr G 40:19 yeah, yeah yay. Well, I look forward to seeing how poorly they do in power. Dr Rad 40:29 Me too, secretly, me too. Don't tell them I said that. Dr G 40:38 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you're one of our illustrious Patreon supporters. If you enjoy the show, we'd love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We're on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon. Of course, our latest book, 'Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire', is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don't want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome's glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with'Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire'. Transcribed by https://otter.ai