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BPS 303: How I Wrote a Sundance Film with Chloe Okuno · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof
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Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three zero three. Yeah, I didn't get into
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Sundance either. Anonymous broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
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really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
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screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to
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another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex
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Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now,
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unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of
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project you are in the goals of the project you are, so we actually
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break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market,
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and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that used
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to reading tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred
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thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage,
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our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO,
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Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many
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more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers,
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head on over to cover my screenplay dot com. Today on the show,
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we have writer director Chloe Okuno, and she wrote and directed the new
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film Watcher. Now. I watched Watcher and I absolutely loved that. I
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thought it was a wonderful film. And the story about how it was made
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and financed and dealing with everything that they had to deal with with COVID and
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so on. It is a really interesting conversation. Without any further ado,
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please enjoy my conversation with Chloe Okuno. I like to welcome to the show,
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Chloe Kuno. How you doing, I'm doing good. Thank you,
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I'm doing I'm doing great. Thank you so much for being on the show.
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I had the pleasure of watching your new film, your new Sundance film,
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the Watcher today and it was it was a creepy. It was a
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pretty pretty creepy. So we will get into it. But before we get
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started, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity
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that is the film industry? Oh wow, Yeah, what a question.
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I've asked myself that question many times over the years, questioning my decision to
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do this instead of going to law school. Um. So, I I'm
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from Pasadena, so I guess I grew up on the periphery of the business.
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But my family isn't in the business at all. Um. And I
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I think when I was around in high school, I just I loved movies
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and it was the only thing I was really passionate about. And I sort
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of started to, you know, consider the idea, which seemed very far
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fetched at the time, of being a filmmaker because there were so many filmmakers
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who I just had completely fallen in love with. So yeah, I think
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around high school I thought about getting into the business. And I did like
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a six week directing course at the New York Film Academy, where they left
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with like sixteen millimeter cameras and like four crews and none of us knew what
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we were doing, but they taught us the very basics of cinematography and film
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editing, and I completely, you know, fell in love with the process
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of actually making movies. So yeah, it was. It was. It's
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been quite a few years now that I've sort of tried to make my way
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through this very difficult business, and it was there a film that lit your
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fire to do this? Oh God, that's such a good question. I
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mean, I think there were probably quite a few. I'll be honest.
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I was a major Quentin Tarantino stand when I was in high school, and
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I continue to think he's fantastic. So when I was I was living abroad
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in France for like a year and it was kind of a terrible experience in
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a way. I was really lonely and miserable. But I went to seek
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hill Bill like seven times in the theater and it just provided such a source
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of comfort and escapism. And I think like that sort of solidified for me
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the idea that this is what I wanted to do. That to us not
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a bad movie to be inspired by, YEA. Quentin Quinn has inspired a
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couple filmmakers, not many, but a couple over the years. Now.
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I've noticed that from your filmography you've kind of leaned towards the horror and suspense
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genre. Is there a specific thing that kind of caught your eye? And
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why you kind of love, you know, telling stories in those genres.
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I think for me it's just a particularly intense and therefore cathartic experience to be
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afraid and to get your heart rate elevated. And I just I love,
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you know, filmmakers who work across the four and thriller genres. You know,
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I like growing up Tarantino, but it was also David Finscher and the
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Cohen Brothers and John Carpenter and you know, Toby Hooper and Wes Craven,
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and I just I really fell in love with people who were able to make
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movies that like terrified me but also energized me, because I think just their
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filmmaking craft is for me personally the most exciting. Yeah, without without question.
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Now, you started off as a PA, like many of us do.
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And was there something uh those was there a time in is there some
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is there a question or excuse me? Is there something that you wish someone
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would have told you some piece of advice back when you started this ridiculous in
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satan adventure filmmaker. Because I say that, because I say that with it,
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I call it the beautiful disease because of the beautiful sickness because it is
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it's like it's a sickness, but it's a beautiful one. It's it's the
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path of the artist, but it's insanity. We're Carnis, I mean,
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we're essentially Carneys. We went often joined the circus. Yeah, completely,
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Yeah, No, I mean I think it is weird. I was thinking
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about, um, like when I even first started making movies, and how
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intensely stressful it was. But you even sort of fall in love with the
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stress, you know, you fall in love with ties and the lows,
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and you definitely fall in love I think with sort of like you said,
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that Carney lifestyle of like going from movie to movie and having these really you
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know, incredible like experiences with these people and then moving on to the next
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one. But yeah, I mean I wish that. I don't know that
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anyone could have given me any advice that would have persuaded me one way or
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the other. You know, I think in this you're in it, and
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like you just you. As long as you continue to love it, you
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keep going. And I think there are a lot of people who ultimately get
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disillusioned with this business, and why wouldn't they because it's just heartbreak after heartbreak
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after heartbreak, and I've certainly experienced that. I mean, I've been working,
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you know, since graduating AFI in twenty fourteen. I've had so many
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projects kind of fall through the way. It shock. It shocking, Okay,
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what a shock, and you really do I think the other thing is
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like coming up with you know, your fellow filmmaking friends. You really see
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that this business is just you're on a roller coaster, and sometimes people will
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have a very high moment in their careers and you'll feel very low by comparison,
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but then that burts immediately, you know. And I think it's just
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like if there was advice, then I sort of just learned it by sticking
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with it for this long. But you know, if someone had just sort
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of told me, like, just sort of ride the ups and downs,
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because that is part of it, you know, don't get discouraged too much.
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But at the same time, I certainly like have a hyper awareness that
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I need to enjoy this moment in which my career is going well and I
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have a movie in sundance, because you know, in a year from now
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it could be a totally different situation. So I think you just sort of
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have to to keep going and try not to let it psychologically damage you permanently,
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because this is the thing that they don't teach you. Like at film
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school, they don't talk about this. This is not part of the curriculum
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very often. They teach you how to run a camera, they teach you
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how to work with an actor, they teach you how to light something,
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but they don't teach you about the realities and the hardships and the resilience that
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is needed. And I know you know this as well. Coming up.
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There are people, you know, colleagues of yours that you look at and
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like, how are they directing? Like how did they get that job?
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You know, because there's people who are not as talented sometimes but they're more
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resilient and and some and you just look at it. You're like, man,
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they just hustled harder than everybody else, and they're working hustle. You
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got a hustle, right, It's so. But is that resilience that is
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not that is the That's the thing that I try to preach on the show
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so much. Is that resilience that you need to handle those blows, those
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as Rocky Balboa says, take the hits and keep on and keep on moving
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forward. I mean, that's what it feels like. I sort of feel
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like it's it's about tenacity and resilience. It's almost a war of attrition,
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like who can stay here the longest and take the most hits. And I
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genuinely feel like one of the reasons that I'm still here in this business is
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that, unfortunately or fortunately, I have a very high tolerance for other people's
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bullshit. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back
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to the show. You know, I just I actually don't it bothers me.
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But at the same time, I understand that you just sort of have
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to take a lot of bullshit in this business and like navigate it and keep
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you know, figuring out how do you can make your movies, but also
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whether all the stupidity that surrounds you constantly. So and I'd love to just
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dig in a little bit on your comments, Like you know, it's it's
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who's willing to stay here and continue to take the hits. That is the
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definition of insanity. Like that is literally like you don't see that in the
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cookie the cookie business, like you know, you know, you don't see
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that. It's just like it's this constant, constant thing and I always find
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these you could you've worn in many ways, there is a lottery ticket mentality
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to filmmakers, like the next one. It's like we're we're constantly betting on
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black or betting, you know, at the roulette table, like the next
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projects, the one that could blow me up, the next projects, the
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one that's going to get me the big gig. And the dream of most
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independent filmmakers is to get a film into Sundance, because back in the nineties
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that was what happened, and you saw all of that success of filmmakers who've
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got into Sundance and it blew their careers up and everything like that. But
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it is that kind of weird mentality of just always hoping that the next thing
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will blow you up. And I found in these in my experience as a
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filmmaker, I finally realized that I'm just going to do the work and whatever
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happens happens. Did you kind of find have you found that kind of groop
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for yourself? Oh? Completely, yeah. But I also never really assume.
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I mean, of course, like getting into Sundance was incredible and a
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genuine surprise, I think for me and everyone else who worked on this movie,
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who loved this movie, and we're so proud of it. But Sundance
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didn't necessarily feel like a realistic goal for us. No, it was kind
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of a dream, and in some ways it is for everyone because it's so
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unlikely that you get in because it's so competitive. But yeah, I mean,
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even now, I certainly don't think like, well, I'm done,
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you know, I've I have arrived, I have arrived, I have arrived.
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Yeah. No, I think you're you're probably always feeling that, you
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know, every movie you work on could be your last, you know,
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And it's like, and it's it's so funny because I've talked to I mean
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I've I've had the pleasure of talking to some very you know, successful filmmakers
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on the show Oscar Winners and all this kind of stuff, and they're just
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like, you're only as good as your last project. Like just because you
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won the Oscar, just because you got on the Sundance, that will open
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some doors for you. But you know, the trucks of money it's not
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going to just come and they're not going to just go, oh, you
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got into Sundance, Oh, how many projects do you want to do.
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We'll finance all of them and take as long as you need. Like that's
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not but a lot of filmmakers think that that's what happens, like, oh,
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you got into Sundays, you're Sunday and a filmmaker. Now the doors
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wide open, the doors creaked open, you know, And it's great.
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Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely great, and anybody would kill for it.
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But I just always like to because I've had films in Sundance and I've
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worked on projects with film with something, and I've seen what happens, like,
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Okay, great, it was awesome. Now get to work exactly and
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you have to have i think a lot of projects going at the same time
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because inevitably only one of the five will go through if you're lucky. So
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yeah, that's also been kind of the thing that was difficult. Like I
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went straight from making VHS ninety four into making Watcher, so I was trying
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to like finish up editing VHS while I was in pre production on Watcher,
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and I had a script that I had been contracted to write for a studio,
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So all of this sort of fell on me at the same time.
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And of course it's like no complaints having things to do, but also it's
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like, in order to have a viable career and like to increase your chances,
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you have to be involved with so many things, but then of course
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inevitably you end up having to do all of them at one Right. Yeah,
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we could all wish for these problems, like, oh, I'm too
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busy. It feels terrible, and I'm complaining about that. No, no,
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but no, but you're absolutely right. But there's still stress and a
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pressure to that. You're like, Okay, great, I just got on
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a Sundance. Didn't expect that. Oh God, I gotta finish this thing.
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Oh God, I gotta do this now. And now it's there's a
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lot of pressure on you. And I can only imagine, you know,
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being in the orbit of filmmakers who've been in Sundance, you know, working
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with them on their on their projects. I see the pressure of what you
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know what You're like, oh god, all this stuff, and you know
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before you used to be able to go to Sundance. Not this year.
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Unfortunately, we can't experience the park City. Have you ever been? No,
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No, I've never been. I've been. I don't think you'll I
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don't think you'll ever be what it was prior to twenty twenty again, because
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I can't. I can't see sixty thousand, hundred thousand people walking in the
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two block radius, I mean right now. Yeah, that seems like a
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futuristic sort of dream exactly. No, But and I always love asking how
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did you get the news and how did like what was I always love that
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story because also so much fun Yes, so it was funny, like from
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the time we submitted, like every single week after, every time I got
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a call from my agents, I just braced myself because I was convinced they
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were calling to tell me that we didn't get in sure, right, of
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course, But no, I got the news. I think it was.
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I can't remember exactly when it was, but I was just at my desk
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working and I got an email from a sundance programmer. I don't know if
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it's okay to say her name, but I'll say her first name, Heidi.
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And I didn't know her personally. I didn't know who this person was.
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I was like, who's this email from? And I look and I
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see she's like a senior sundance programmer and she just says, are you available
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to hop on a zoom with me in like the next ten minutes, and
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I was like, Okay, surely they wouldn't be zooming me to tell me
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I didn't get in, right, They're just gonna give me the bad news
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through my agents. But I still wasn't like totally sure. So I hop
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on the zoom and it's just her and me, and she gives me the
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good news, and I think I started crying. Oh, of course,
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as you should. I would have cried. It was very overwhelming, but
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it was really nice. I love that they sort of you know, they
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give you the news themselves in one on one and it was sort of perfect
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the way it just totally came out of nowhere. Yeah, you were just
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hanging out and then you just get that call. It's yeah, that time
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of year, during Thanksgiving, that that's that's that little two three week window
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when they start letting people know and you're just like and every day that goes
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by, you're like, I didn't get in. I didn't get in.
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I didn't get in, And then like December one, you're like, I
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definitely didn't get it. I've had some people get a call of December,
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like early December, and they're like oh my god. But it's it's an
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amazing experience. It really is an amazing experience. Now, how did Watch
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Her come to be? How did you get Watcher off the ground? Yeah?
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So, um, I was hired to do it in twenty seventeen,
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and it was actually a fairly sort of you know, typical origin story and
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that I think the scripts came to me through my agency and I read it
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and they said that this company is hiring a director. They're talking to a
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handful of people, and I just at the time, I think I was
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a few years out of film school. I'd had one really pretty painful setback
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in my career, and I was more determined than ever to land the job.
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So I'm pretty sure they just gave it to me because I like,
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put together a twenty page presentation and just like you know, Reese, Witherspoon
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and Election style, tried harder than everyone else. That's fun. Great analogy,
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by the way, that was awesome. Let's call back. So they
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so you basically was work for hire. You just landed the job, it
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was initially, Yeah, it was I landed the job. It was worked
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for hire. The script by Zach Ford was very interesting. It was you
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know this, The core story was about this couple, Julia and Francis,
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who moved into an apartment and Julia becomes convinced there's a guy watching her.
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But then over the five years that it took, you know, for me
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getting hired to the movie getting made, it actually there was a significant amount
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of evolution. And I think the biggest evolution really was when the script initially
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was set in New York City. I heard pretty you know, late in
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the game that we were going to shoot in Toronto, and then that fell
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through, and then they talked about shooting it in Bucharest, in Romania,
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and I just decided to totally embrace that and rewrite the script to take place
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in Romania, which ended up being a real creative blessing because it kind of
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took the narrative and in this whole other direction that really just sort of helped,
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you know, bolster what was already there in terms of the emotional journey
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of our protagonists and just helping to increase her sense of isolation and alienation.
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And know, suddenly she shows up and she can't speak the language, and
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it just brought this whole other level to it. So it was, yeah,
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it was a very interesting evolution over over those five years. I was
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going to ask you how Boudacrast came to be because it was kind of like,
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that's very unlocks you normally New York, LA, you know, kind
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of place, but it actually added such a level of just another texture to
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the whole story that really made it stand out for me when I was watching
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it. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was. You
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know, I think there was some budgetary incentive certainly shooting Mania the way.
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Yeah, it's it's a very common common destination, partially for that reason,
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but also because you know, they have the infrastructure there to make good movies.
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They have really good crew, and I think the financing company had worked
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in Romania before, so they had experienced there. So there were a lot
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of practical reasons to go shoot it there. And then I really did.
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We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
20:07
the show. You know, I tried to absorb everything I could when I
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was there. I'd never been to Romania previously. I'd lived in Russia,
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so I had at least some former Soviet Union experience, but Romania was new
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to me. But it was great because I really was able to sort of
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like infuse little details into the script based on experiences I had in pre production.
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Like there's a scene where Julia goes into this beautiful sort of museum and
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she gets chase out by this angry security guard who's screaming at her in Romanian
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and she doesn't understand what he's saying. That literally happened to us, Like
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we went at location like that actual location, and I take out my phone
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to take pictures and this guy just comes running out and screaming at me.
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Wow. We actually that's the guy who's in the movie. Cast him.
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That's you're terrifying, Like, let's put you in the film. Um,
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he was cooler then after you offered him the part, he was a lot
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cooler, way cooler. But the greatest thing was that I think he clearly
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was really nervous because he wasn't an actor, So the first few takes he
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wasn't he wasn't like doing the thing that he had did to us in person.
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But we eventually we got him there. That's that's amazing, that's great,
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that's a great story. Now I did notice that this film had a
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hitchcock. He and vibe to it. Was he an influence at all when
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you were making this? Absolutely, I mean definitely from a pure narrative perspective,
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Like Rear Window, I think was massively influential on this movie. You
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know, it's it's sort of I think, like directly referencing it in many
21:48
ways. Sure, and visually as well. And I think we're all trying
21:51
in some ways to emulate Hitchcock in terms of, you know, his ability
21:55
to create tension and suspense. Um. So yeah, he was a reference.
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M. David Fincher was a reference. I could see that. Yeah,
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I could see the Fincher esque thing in there, no question. Absolutely.
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Yeah. There is a great Japanese movie called Perfect Blue by Satoshone,
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which actually ended up being quite influential as well. It's about like a Japanese
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pop star who's being stalked by one of her fans. So yeah, there
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there were quite a few influences, and I hope that you know they came
22:29
together in some way that makes sense now. As a director, you know,
22:33
when we're on set, um, it's such it's such an interesting things
22:38
as directors, as artists, we don't get to practice our craft very often
22:42
actually directing it's mostly years of getting things off the ground unless you're Ridley Scott.
22:48
Then if you're Ridley Scott, you're directing all the time. Were doing
22:52
Gladiator and like Black Hawkdown and like Another House of Gucci. The Last King
22:59
Aliens like he's doing all of them at the same time. Um. But
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generally speaking, we don't get to do it very often. And when we're
23:07
there, I always find him like it's I'm the happiest ever being on set.
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It's just like, ah, it's great, is there? And there
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was? But with that happiness, there comes that day where you feel like
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the entire world's coming crashing around you. You've lost, You've lost Like she's
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everyone listening, who's listening? She's laughing because the second I said that,
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She's like, you mean every day, Uh, but there's that specific day
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that you feel like you lost the location actor broke his leg, the sun
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is you're losing the sun? What was that for you in this project?
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And how did you overcome it? I'm laughing because I'm thinking of like seven
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or eight different days, Well, a couple, a couple then that would
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be good. Um. Okay, So the first one I think was because
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of a variety of scheduling issues. Obviously, scheduling is always a nightmare an
24:07
indie film. Like you put COVID on top of it, it gets like
24:11
fifty times parter. So for scheduling reasons, I think on day four we
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had to do this massive scene which takes place at the end of the movie,
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and it is probably one of like the heaviest emotional moments for our two
24:26
lead characters, and it involves all these extras in an indoor space, so
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there's a whole COVID thing on top of it, and it just was a
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very, very difficult night. It was also a night shoot, so I
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think we were shooting from like five pm to five am, So just a
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lot of difficult circumstances. And again this is day four on my first feature
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film, so I'm also just you know, trying to get my bearings in
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some way. So that was very hard, and without going too into detail,
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I think, you know, because of that level of stress on every
25:11
single person in the production, there was a little bit of drama, no
25:15
honest, set stop it a little bit of drama. And I feel like
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I, I you know, got through it the way that you usually do,
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which is to sort of just grit your teeth and like, you know,
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ride it out and try not to get too rattled and try not to
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let it make you too emotional, because I will say, like, like
25:44
genuinely, women on set, especially when you're in a position of power,
25:49
people don't will not give you a lot of grace when it comes to showing
25:55
your emotions. You have to be very careful about it. You have to
25:57
in a way that you know, I'm sort of making a movie about that,
26:00
you know, like us to do the same thing. It's just constantly
26:04
sort of modifying what she feels so that people won't you know, write her
26:08
off as lacking credibility being a female director. You're kind of doing the same
26:12
thing. So I think it was really just a matter of in some ways,
26:18
unfortunately, I have a lot of practice with that, so but it
26:22
still is very difficult, and it just you know, you had to sort
26:26
of like take a deep breath and like make sure that as much as possible,
26:30
in spite of all the drama, we were getting through our day,
26:33
and at the end of it it did feel fairly miraculous that we made it.
26:40
It's major day, which which is interesting because I've had multiple female directors
26:45
on the show. And I love talking female directors because it's a perspective of
26:49
directing that I don't have. I'm a Latino filmmaker, so I have that
26:52
perspective. But you know, I've never dealt with a lot of things that
26:56
female directors have to deal with and vice versa. Is there any advice you
27:00
could give a young female director listening right now, are watching right now on
27:04
how to deal with difficult situations on set, because look, I when I
27:10
was coming up, I was always the youngest guy in the room. That's
27:11
that's not the case anymore, but I was always I was always the kid
27:17
in the room. And I would walk on some of these sets as a
27:18
director, and you know, you'd have the the the grizzled you know,
27:25
sixty year old grip who you know, who's like this kid doesn't know what
27:30
he's doing, or or the DP that is going his own way, or
27:33
things like that. It was difficult for me to deal with that coming up.
27:37
I could only imagine what'd be like. It was, especially in the
27:40
I came up in the nineties. It's not the same world for female directors
27:44
as it is today. It's gotten better for my understanding. Is there things
27:48
that you can give any tips on how to maneuver those for female directors or
27:52
even just young directors who just when you've got a DP who's like, yeah,
27:56
I'm going to shoot him my way, what are you gonna do?
27:57
What are you gonna do about it? You know? Or designers like nah,
28:00
I don't think that's the way to do it, and like, and
28:02
you've got to You've got to kind of show some teeth. Yeah, yeah,
28:07
you do. I mean, I think my advice would be I find
28:12
it very difficult to stand up for myself and adacate for myself as an individual,
28:18
and I think that's not uncommon with women. For whatever reason, we've
28:22
sort of been taught not to do that. And if anything, I think
28:26
or sort of it's ingrained in us to try to make other people around us
28:30
comfortable, right, and that's not what you need to do when you're directing
28:34
a movie. But what has really helped me is sort of telling myself,
28:40
Okay, I'm not standing up for myself, Chloe, Okuno, I'm standing
28:44
up for this movie that I'm trying to make. So the movie, like
28:48
the movie that you're trying to make, the thing that is going to exist
28:51
at the end of the day outside of you. In some ways, that
28:53
becomes a thing that I'm just like, I'm protecting this and it doesn't really
28:57
matter what people think of me. I'm I'm standing up for what I believe
29:02
is right for the sake of this movie that I'm trying to make. It
29:06
almost becomes like a separate entity, like a little baby that you're trying to
29:10
protect. Okay, that makes sense that way of looking at it, Like
29:14
you separate yourself, you take yourself out of it, and now you're like,
29:18
no, I'm the mama or the Papa bear of the of the movie.
29:22
Yeah, no, exactly. And even doing that, it's still very
29:26
hard, you know, And it's always hard when you're a director because you're
29:30
working with people who are experts in their fields and you are not. So
29:33
they're looking at you like, what do you know it's your first movie,
29:37
you know, or you know, I've been doing this so many more years
29:40
than you have. But truly, like I really find first of all,
29:45
if I make the wrong decision, I'd rather it be my wrong decision than
29:52
me accepting someone else's wrong decision and living with that. You know, that's
29:56
always better. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
30:04
now back to the show. But also I really feel like, you know,
30:11
the thing that directors have that no one else does is we've lived with
30:15
the movie for probably years, Like we know it inside and out. We
30:18
should know why we're making a certain decision. It's not kind of for other
30:22
people, it might be isolated, but for you, you're taking it within
30:26
the context of the entirety of the movie. So how is production designed going
30:29
to work with cinematography and the actors and everything else that you've planned to tell
30:33
this very particular kind of story and the way you want to. So I
30:38
find it constantly challenging every day to have the sort of confidence to tell people
30:45
what I want, especially when they give me a lot of pushback. But
30:48
that's sort of I feel like for me, like that's the essence of the
30:52
job in some ways. Yeah, And I mean, and you know,
30:53
I forgot that this was your first feature, so you had that to deal
30:57
with, And how did you get for you know, how did you get
31:02
your agent from shorts? Because I know a lot of people listening are like,
31:04
this is your first you know, everybody wants their first feature everybody wants
31:07
to get their first feature gig, especially work for hire is unheard of.
31:11
You know, you normally have to build it all yourself and find the financing
31:15
yourself, and get casts by yourself and all this stuff. So this is
31:18
a very unique scenario. How did you get your first agent and how did
31:21
that process go from from shorts? Yeah, so I got it. I
31:26
had the short that I made coming out of a FI was called Slut,
31:30
and it was like a coming of age horror movie, which did pretty well
31:34
on the festival circuit. So I can't even remember exactly how they saw it,
31:38
but they saw that the movie my former agency and reached out to me
31:44
and wanted to rep me, which was incredible. Also something I wasn't necessarily
31:48
expecting to make a film school. So that's how that happened. But like
31:52
I said, you know, that was in twenty fourteen and it's now twenty
31:57
twenty two and I'm only now premiering my first feature. So that tells you
32:02
how long it took to get to this point, even even with agents,
32:07
even with agents, even with agents. Yeah, that's the thing that a
32:10
lot of filmmakers and screenwriters need to understand, is like just because you have
32:14
an agent doesn't mean that you're going to just be working all the time.
32:17
Oh no, no, oh no no. Even with agents, I think
32:22
you, you know, you still have to really be pushing all the time
32:25
yourself. You gotta be hustling, and they might open some doors for you,
32:29
like this opportunity that presented you with the Watcher, you know, and
32:31
you were you were you election did out and got and got it. Now
32:38
going back to I think it was Full Circle, your first short film that
32:43
kind of made the rounds. I guess that. Well, full Circle was
32:47
not exactly so. When I was nineteen and I had been like working as
32:52
a PA on all these indie sets, I made this little movie called Birdman,
32:55
and I didn't know what I was doing. It was one of those
32:58
ones where I like wrote it, produced it directed and it's a miracle that
33:04
even got made because it was just me stumbling around in the dark. But
33:07
yeah, there was that one. And then when I was at A five,
33:09
made a few shorts, one of which was Full Circle, which hasn't
33:13
really been seen because at AFI your first year, you make these shorts,
33:16
but they're sort of designed to be done very quickly for no money. And
33:20
you don't get the rights to anything, so they can't really be distributed or
33:23
go to festivals. Of course not why would they, right? Yeah?
33:29
So, was there were there some major takeaways early on in your career that
33:32
you kind of brought into your careers because I remember one big first first time
33:37
I did my commercial reels. This is back in the nineties, where I
33:40
shot at thirty five. I hired two dps. There were two dps on
33:47
set. This is how bad this situation was. I've never had any ever
33:52
since. And the professional crew that was hired, they're like, why are
33:55
there two dps? Like why they owned a grip shruck and they had access
34:01
to a film camera. So I say, well, if they own the
34:05
gear, they must know what they're doing. Mistake that I never ever made
34:12
again. And that was something I brought in from those early days of me
34:15
starting out as a director. So is there anything that you brought from those
34:20
early days doing your shorts. Yeah, I never want to produce something that
34:24
i'm directing. At the same time, you said, no, I'm good,
34:30
I'm good. Yeah, I mean it was probably it was a good
34:34
experience, but no, I mean, it's just like directing. If you're
34:37
really lucky and you have good producers. You know, they're the people who
34:42
allow you to focus creatively because just that just the creative focus takes up one
34:46
hundred percent of your time. So when you're trying to like make the movie,
34:50
but you're also thinking about like when craft services is going to arrive,
34:53
was just not conducive. I'll tell you what I've most of the things I've
35:00
done, I've also produced, and I agree with you, like, and
35:02
there's been times where I've been in work for higher I'm like, oh,
35:06
this is so much easier. It's you mean, I don't have to sign
35:08
checks during lunch, Like it's insanity, that is. It's so hard.
35:16
Yeah. I don't know how you continue to do it, because I did
35:19
it once, like on a tiny, little note budget movie, and I
35:22
was done. I think for me, it's just I didn't have a choice.
35:25
I didn't have a producer, so I was just like, well,
35:28
I gotta do it myself. I came from Florida, so in Florida,
35:31
there wasn't a plethora, you know, of filmmakers that I can work with.
35:36
So I was just like, all right, I gotta just sign the
35:38
checks and produce it and get it done myself. And it was oh god,
35:44
horror stories, horror stories growing up during that time. But but you
35:47
know, it's the shrapnel. It's the shrapnel that you you gather along the
35:52
way, and it makes you who you are as a filmmaker. And you
35:54
know, looking back again, I always like going back, especially when we
35:59
start, when you're starting out, is there something that you wish someone would
36:02
have told you at the beginning, not in a way to dissuade you from
36:06
being a filmmaker, but to actually help you on your path, Like if
36:09
you could go back and say, listen, Chloe, it's gonna be it's
36:14
gonna take you twice as long and twice as hard as you think it's gonna
36:16
be. Now, you really should think about being a lawyer. But if
36:19
you're not, if you're going to go down this path, this is this
36:22
is probably something to look out for. Oh man. I mean, honestly,
36:28
I'm sort of worried. I'm even now making mistakes that I'm not aware
36:31
of. You know, I'm a little reflectant to go back and give myself
36:35
advice when i feel like I'm still sort of in thick of it, Like,
36:38
ask me again, when I'm seventy five when I've done a couple more
36:42
movies. But I don't know. I mean, I'll be very honest,
36:46
Like, a thing that has been sort of very difficult and surprising to me
36:52
is that, like you said, you would assume that the easier thing to
36:58
do as an independent filmmaker would be to get your own movies made as opposed
37:04
to getting hired to direct something else, being a director for hire. I've
37:07
actually found it's been the opposite for me. I'm a writer director, and
37:10
I write scripts that I guess are I think accessible, but also they cross
37:17
a lot of different genres, and I don't know, for whatever reason,
37:21
I found it very difficult to actually get those scripts made, and I've found
37:25
it easier to get hired on projects, which, like you, again,
37:30
it's it's just it's upside down world. But I don't know what my advice
37:36
is because I haven't figured out how to fix it yet. But I guess
37:40
one piece of advice, I think, we're comfortable shoes. We're comfortable shoes.
37:45
That's always, that's great advice. Yeah, they're comfortable shoes. Have
37:50
a lot of pockets. Pockets are sil Remember those pictures of those directors,
37:54
especially commercial directors, had that vest on that they had like thousands of pockets
38:00
and they could stick it in the back and you would just look at him
38:01
and like and they were always khaki pants with tons of pockets, and he
38:05
was like, wow, that's is that what a director wears? And then
38:07
when you're on set, you're like, yeah, that makes so much sense.
38:08
I always wear khakis. I always have pockets everywhere, just because I'm
38:14
shoving stuff in all over the clack. Here's my shot list over here,
38:17
Here's here's the schedule over here, And I'm just constantly oh yeah, unless
38:22
again, unless you're Ridley Scott, please got released his own director's jacket.
38:29
I think did he? Of course he did. Why why wouldn't he?
38:32
I just adore Ridley because he, first of all, he didn't give a
38:37
crap when he was in his forties, which was, by the way,
38:38
his first movie was in his early His very first feature was I think he
38:44
was forty or forty one. But by the time he made that first feature,
38:49
he had directed twenty five hundred commercials. Oh wow. So he was
38:52
a professional, right, I mean, he more proficient and more time on
38:55
set than all the masters working at the time, so he was very proficient
39:00
at it. Same thing for Finch, or same thing for like Bay and
39:02
Food Quad, these commercial directors, they just constantly worked for decades. But
39:07
him and Tony both did that and then they got off the ground with their
39:12
with the directing. But now I don't know Tony. I think he's just
39:14
rushing against the clock because he's just like, I need to make five movies
39:16
a year. I know, I really respect it. Yeah, I've heard
39:21
that. So we were so lucky. We had the most amazing colorist on
39:24
Watcher named Stefan Nakamoa. It was gorgeous. It was gorgeous. Well we're
39:29
yeah, I mean he did. He and my DP Benji kirk Nielsen both
39:32
an amazing work. But Stefan has worked with Ridley Scott. You know,
39:37
he was the colorist on the Last Tool and on how Fucci and I hope
39:43
I'm not talking out of turn, but yeah, he told me that.
39:45
You know, Ridley is one of these guys who shoots with multiple cameras.
39:49
Um, but the song that I five cameras, I heard five cameras at
39:52
the same time. Yeah, we'll be right back after a word from our
39:57
sponsor. And now back to the show. Cameras you know, doesn't like
40:06
to do a ton of takes. But also, the really big thing that
40:09
I took away from why Ridley is able to move so quickly, aside from
40:13
just being a genius and being in the business for decades, is that the
40:16
actors show up and immediately respect him. You're not going to get any pushback
40:21
when you're Ridley Scott, even from movie stars. So I think that's probably
40:24
helpful. And you know what that is. I've noticed that as I've gotten
40:30
as I've gone a little bit and I'm a little older now and I've been
40:32
doing this for a little bit longer, when I walk on set, I'll
40:36
still get a pushback sometimes from someone older than me. And I have no
40:38
I definitely don't have the reputation for at LEAs Scott by any stretch of the
40:42
imagination. Nobody has the reputation really Scott. But yeah, at a certain
40:45
point, you if you made enough movies, they just know like, oh
40:50
he or she knows what they're doing, you know, you know. But
40:53
I still remember the day I walked on on the TV show I was doing,
40:57
which I was producing and paying everybody out of I was the production company,
41:01
and this first AD didn't know who I was. I didn't hire him,
41:07
and he started giving me crap on day one, and I'm like,
41:13
dude, like my DP i've been working with forever, my product, my
41:17
line producer I've been working for, and the line producer hired him because it
41:20
was the last minute higher because my first AD was booked. So I was
41:22
like, okay, and this guy just started giving me crack, and I'm
41:25
like, dude, come here, come here for a second. Just pull
41:29
him aside. It's like, if you don't like the way I'm working,
41:34
you can leave. I've been doing this close to thirty years and I could
41:37
do the show without you. And after that and I go, oh and
41:43
oh, by the way, I'm paying you. After that, it was
41:45
very smooth sailing. It was very calm, quiet, just chilled, and
41:51
he was like the best friend. Yeah, oh my god, that's amazing.
41:57
I mean, I would love to get to that point. I can
42:00
just kick someone one aside and very quietly tell them that I'm better at this
42:05
than you are. Shut up. Like I'm like, dude, between me
42:07
and my DP, we can run the set. Dude, we don't need
42:10
you on this production. This is not the last duel. I don't need
42:15
you if you're gonna give me attitude and and and be toxic on the set
42:19
like which I don't need that. But by the way, also congratulation.
42:22
I'm being nominated for the Grand Prize, the Grand Jury Prize for Sundance.
42:24
I saw on your IMDb that you were nominated. Oh what, I didn't
42:30
This is that news to me? Well congratulations? Well listen, I just
42:34
saw it on your IMDb that you got it says nominated for Grand Jury Prize
42:38
at Sundance. So isn't it at all the films who are in competition nominated.
42:43
I don't know if they are, if they are enjoy it, if
42:46
they aren't enjoy it. But if I saw it on your IMDb, I
42:51
was like, oh, that's very cool, love it. I'm glad I
42:55
give you that news. I know, breaking news, breaking news. Right
43:00
now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my
43:01
guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to break into
43:06
the business today. My advice would be too like I said, it could
43:17
sort of backfire in some ways, but don't be too precious. First of
43:22
all, because there's no perfect project, and you would be shocked. I
43:28
think even sometimes if you're a director in a script comes to you that's not
43:30
perfect, or if you're a writer director and writing your own script and you
43:35
just feel like, okay, it's not Citizen Kane yet, don't be afraid,
43:38
I think, to put it out into the world, and don't be
43:40
afraid to take on jobs that maybe still need some work, because in this
43:45
industry, things always a lot of times, they take a lot of time,
43:47
or they happen in like a minute, it's one or the other.
43:50
But um, you can you can evolve things. And I just think,
43:54
you know, there's there's a lot of potential on projects, and there's a
43:59
lot of pressure on young filmmakers to do something that is sort of perfect their
44:05
first time out of the gate. And you know, on second and third
44:07
time filmmakers, you know you're only as good as your last movie. But
44:10
I would just say, don't get too caught up in that and don't let
44:14
that psych you out too much, because I think to a certain extent,
44:16
I've spent a lot of years so fearful of making a movie that was bad.
44:22
It probably prevented me in some ways from taking opportunities that would have been
44:27
good. So that would be my advice, So great advice. I Yeah,
44:31
before I made my first feature, it was always like, I have
44:34
to be reservoir. Dots has to be el Mariachi has it has to be
44:37
color, it has to be this thing that blows up. And it's not
44:42
I that's an anomaly. Just do the best work again and move forward.
44:46
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, Whether
44:49
in the film industry or in life. I'm still continuing to learn to we
45:01
I mean, we had just such a long conversation about it before, but
45:06
I really am still learning to stand up for myself and to trust my instincts.
45:12
And you know, every single day you're sort of confronted with a million
45:15
different decisions as a director, and if you're person like me, who's kind
45:22
of anxious and tends to overly intellectualize everything, like every single one of those
45:27
decisions, even if they seem really small and unimportant, suddenly feels like it
45:30
could make or break your movie. And maybe that's true, but it's probably
45:34
not true. And I think it's just like, literally every single day I
45:37
direct I'm I'm having to push to believe in my instincts and just believe in
45:46
myself. And I don't know if I'll ever fully learn that lesson, because
45:52
I think it's part of the process, like going through that struggle, and
45:57
maybe that's what makes things interesting, like there's an inherent tend there. Well,
46:00
I'll tell you what, don't feel bad because I've talked to some of
46:04
the biggest people in the business and they all feel the exact same way.
46:07
That imposter syndrome. It's a it's a real thing. I think it's just
46:10
inherent of being an artist. So it happens to all of us. When
46:16
I when I hear that, when I hear certain Oscar winners going yeah,
46:20
I don't know if I can write this, I'm like, dude, you
46:22
just won the Oscar. What's wrong with you? Like, yeah, I
46:23
don't know. I still can't. I don't think I could do it.
46:27
And last question, three of your favorite films of all time? Oh?
46:30
Okay, um, Harold and maud Way way up there. Yes, Alien
46:38
also probably my favorite horror movie of all time. Um. And I'm the
46:43
last one. I'm gonna say, Once upon a Time in the West,
46:49
Oh, nice, very good, especially that opening sequence. Opening. I
46:54
think that opening sequence and also the sequence where they're like at the well and
47:00
get shot and the music that like Ennio more Colony score, just if there
47:04
was something about that that just sort of like changed me when I saw it.
47:07
It's great choices. Chloe, Thank you so much for being on the
47:10
show. I wish you nothing but success and congratulations again not being at Sundance.
47:15
Enjoy this moment. It does go fast. Just just enjoy the ride
47:22
because it's going to be a fun ride for you. So continue success,
47:24
my dear, Thank you so much, thank you. I want to thank
47:29
Chloe so much for coming on the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on the
47:34
tribe today. Thank you so much, Chloe. If you want to get
47:36
links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show
47:39
notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv, Ford Slash three zero three, and if
47:45
you haven't already, please head over to Screenwriting podcast dot com, subscribe and
47:52
leave a good review for the show. It really really helps us out a
47:55
lot. Thank you again for listening to guys. As always, keep on
47:59
writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to
48:02
The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.