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Acting Out · Revisionist History

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Revisions History listeners, Malcolm here. Before we get started,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I wanted to update you on a few things. First thing,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: this August twenty fourth, the Revisionist History season begins in earnest,
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• 0:39
  Speaker 1: a little bits and pieces so far this season, but
• 0:41
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• 0:44
  Speaker 1: a six part series on guns and violence that I
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: think is my favorite thing we've ever done. Weird, moving, funny, heartbreaking.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: So mark your calendar's August twenty fourth is when it
• 0:56
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• 1:24
  Speaker 1: one naice thing, speaking of things you should binge, the
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: latest season of our true crime masterpiece Lost Hills has dropped.
• 1:32
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• 1:35
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• 1:42
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• 2:01
  Speaker 1: A couple weeks ago, one of my producers, Ben at
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Afh Haffrey, came by the office because he had a
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: story to tell me. Ben, Welcome to Hudson, New York.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me in Hudson, New York.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Ben just took over writing and hosting a Pushkin show
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I love called The Last Archive, a show about the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: history of truth. Jill Lapour used to host it. Ben's
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: worked on it since the beginning. He's always digging around
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: in the stacks of some old library, and one day
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: last summer he was in the medical history archives at
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Harvard where he found a story that blew his mind.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, I want to play you some tape.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead, Ella, welcome back to Dallas. I'm marvelous.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, and it's a pleasure to be back
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: here again.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Do you recognize that voice?
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I no, tell me.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: That is the voice of Eliphantzterle and she's being interviewed
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: in the eighties and Dallas, and she's about to tell
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: this big story about how she got famous. It's a
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: story she tells all the time, like an amateur knight
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: at the Apollo Theater when she sings and everyone realizes
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: she's got an amazing voice. But I want to play
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: you this tape because I want to show you what
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: happened when she tells it in this particular instance.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Okay, Ella, as you look back on your life, here
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: was a child from an orphanage and now, no, no,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: somebody wrote that up. Where did that get come?
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: I had well, that was a publicity thing long time ago.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: But I have family, and I had family then. But
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: my mother had died, and I guess that's why they
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: used that. Mind that I was an awphoran, but I
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: had family.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: At what age were you when your mother died?
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: I was fifteen, about fifteen, because from there we went
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: to the amateur contest.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I was about fifteen, because from there we went to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: the amateur contest. It's not a lie, but she's skipping
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: two years of her life, about two years, and she
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: always skips these two years of her life when she
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: tells this story. And what I want to do today
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: is tell you a story about what happens in those
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: two years, because it's a story not just about Elip Fitzgerald,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: but kind of crazily a story about the invention of
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: this whole realm of social science that she is kind
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: of bound up in that I think you'll be interested in,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: not just because it's a very you kind of thing,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: but also because it's a story that takes place half
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a mile from where we're sitting right now.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Wow, welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and misunderstood. Today in the show, Ben tells me about
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: the forgotten origins of social network theory and the missing
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: chapter in Ella Fitzgerald's life. It's absolutely Banana's story. Just
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: so you know, I'd read a little bit of Ben's
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: research before we had this conversation, so I'm a little
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: ahead of you, but still just wait, do you see
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: how Ella Fitzgerald fits into this whole thing. Before we
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: get to her, we have to meet the experimenter, a
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: doctor from halfway around the world. Wait, so back up
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: for a second. So we begin with this man Jacob.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: What's his middle name, Jacob Levy Marino.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Jacob Levy Marino. Who is He's Austrian.
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  Speaker 2: He always claimed that he was born on a boat
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  Speaker 2: in the Black Sea.
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  Speaker 5: I was born on the boat the Black Sea, and
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: I'll be traveling from one part of the world to
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  Speaker 5: the others and to find myself.
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  Speaker 2: Actually, he was just born in eighteen eighty nine in
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  Speaker 2: Bucharest to a fifteen and a half year old mother
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: who had married a traveling salesman father and lived in
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  Speaker 2: Bucharest I think for the first five or six years
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of his life before moving to Austria.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: He's basically lower middle class Jewish immigrant living in Vienna,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: and yet he ends up getting a pretty serious education.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So he goes to school at the University of Vienna.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: He's studying to be a physician. He becomes really interested
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: in psychiatry. He was noted on campus for walking around
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: in a long green cloak and letting his beard grow
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: in a way that no one else is letting in
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: their beard grow and he never wear a hat. So
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: he's just sort of striking larger than life figure on campus,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: which is kind of like it's always been the thing
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: with him since he was a kid, like this. This story.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: His mother always told this story that one day she
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: was holding him on the street and a woman was
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: walking by and pointed at him and said, one day
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: that boy will become a very great man. People will
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: come from all over the world to see him. And
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: so he had this kind of like self described megalomania
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: and literally would play god as a child, which is
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: a thing he continued to do for his whole life.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So he's part of the intellectual scene in Vienna. Yeah,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: and then makes his way to the United States.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, so he makes his way to the United States
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: after World War One, and you know, psychodrama at this
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  Speaker 2: point is sort of his big idea.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Well, wait to find psychodrama is doing.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: So it's like, you have a problem you want to
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: work through the common way of working through that problem
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  Speaker 2: is to go to a psychoanalyst office and lie down
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: on the couch and just talk about your problem. He thought,
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: you have a problem, you bring it to the stage
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: and you act out whatever problem you're having, and you
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: have this kind of dynamic way of engaging with the
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: issues you were facing, and then that would help you
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  Speaker 2: either have a catharsist and break through it or just
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: like reimagine your own role within the problems you were
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: having such that you no longer have them. So what
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: he's really interested in is creative spontaneity. He thinks of
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: children as a model. He did a lot of tutoring
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: when he was in medical school, and he basically felt
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: like the creative spontaneity kids have is a thing he
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: wanted to give to everybody, like you can when you're
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: like watch a group of kids playing, which he did
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: a lot when he was a tutor, they just kind
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: of like pick up roles immediately. And he'd see these
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: groups of kids, you know, like, how does everyone decide
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden they're playing cops and robbers or
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: just sort of lock into some sort of performance and
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: communicate it in an almost unspoken, instantaneous way. That sort
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: of self creative freedom was a thing that he thought
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: everybody should have. So his therapeutic theater stuff is really
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: an attempt to figure out how does that work. Where
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: does that spark come from? What are the dynamics between
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: these people? What's a systematic way to think about those
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: dynamics that promotes this kind of spontaneous interaction between them.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: That preoccupation of his is where social network analysis comes from,
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  Speaker 2: is basically like how can I study a group and
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: figure out how the ideas are moving within the group
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: and make it sort of rigorous in a way. He's
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: really preoccupied with this question what goes on with a
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: group of people because he's stuck between psychoanalysis, which is
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: all about the individual and the self, and a lot
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: of the social sciences in the nineteen twenties, which are
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: these kind of big static numbers like averages or like
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: the sort of information you get from a poll.
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  Speaker 1: So his principal objection to psychoanalysis is the fact that
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  Speaker 1: it's too focused on the individual on it self. Yeah,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: it seemsus maybe it seems it seems like it would
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  Speaker 1: seemed decadent to him to lie on a couch and
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  Speaker 1: talk about yourself endlessly.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he used to talk about this all the time.
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  Speaker 6: That's did people who go on the couch for six
• 9:28
  Speaker 6: eight years, spending twenty thousand dollars and so for us,
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: and then they come to us, and what do we do?
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: We let him act out the problem as it is
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: on the Reality lib.
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  Speaker 2: That tape is from where Cooper Union.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: He's giving a talk.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like nineteen sixty something, so it's later in life,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: so he never really got over it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk a little about the how does
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: he what is this big experiment at how does he
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: come to conduct it?
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: So basically, he's he's in New York. He's got this
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  Speaker 2: improv theater that like the critics all hate at Carnegie Hall.
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  Speaker 2: And one day a Columbia graduate student in sociology named
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Helen Hall Jennings come to the improv theater and somehow
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: they identify that they're both really interested in this question
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: of rigorously figuring out the way groups work. And Moreno,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: as you can tell, is sort of like all over
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: the place and wasn't a super focused or rigorous person,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: but had just a crazy number of ideas that were
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: really pretty insightful. And what Helen Hall Jennings had was
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: an extremely rigorous math background and also connections. And when
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: they sort of figured out that they had this thing
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: income and this interest they began working with each other,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: and so they begin to work up a science for
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: mapping the way groups work. So they begin to go
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: to classrooms. It was like a Brooklyn public school. They
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: go to where they ask all the kids, like who
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: do you most want to sit next to? And then
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  Speaker 2: they start creating diagrams of like how successfully integrated the classroom.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: It's like, are people sitting next to the kids they
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: want to sit next to? They go to sing Sing prison,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: but the thing is like they're kind of fiddling around
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: the edges, like these are small experiments and what they
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: need is a really big experiment. And they kind of
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: luck into meeting this woman named Fanny French Morse, who's
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: the superintendent of the New York State Training School for Girls,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: which is women's reformatory located half a mile from here. Like,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: go out the door, turn right, walk down the street,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: and we'd be there.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I go running up to that place all
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: the time. It's a prison, now.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a place that really creeps me out.
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  Speaker 2: But the history of reformatories and the juvenile justice system,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: that's one of the big accomplishments of the progressive era
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: is this idea we should not be treating kids who
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: commit crimes the way we treat adults who commit crimes,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: because on some level people thought kids can change more
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: than adults can. So rather than like locking them in
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: a prison in a city with a bunch of adult criminals,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: they should have a different court system. They could be
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: charged for different things. Like a lot of young girls
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: were sent to reform schools just for being incorrigible or ungovernable,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: but they were sent to these places that were always
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: in bucolic settings that were meant to take them out
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: of contaminated cities and put them in places where they
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: could become better versions of themselves. And so if Fanny
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: frenchmore s runds the Hudson One, and it's always on
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: the cusp of being a prison or a school, and
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: so it's constantly a need of being reformed because it
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: gets too strict or it gets too punitive, and they
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: need to make it more re educative instead. And she's
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: this lifelong progressive reformer who takes over the training school
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: when it's become basically a prison, and she's kind of
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: like a legend in this field. The first night she
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: takes over, she makes a huge pile on the lawn
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: of all of the straight jackets and the restraining sheets
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: and the prison uniforms, and she lights it on fire.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: So she's this firebrand reformer who's really trying to do
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: something at this school. She introduces art, she buys a farm,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: she gets all these antiques that the girls start reworking,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: trying to give them an aesthetic education. But notably, the
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: thing that the training school really does is it's a
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: miniature version of society. So if any French, Morris invites
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: jail Moreno and Helen Hall Jennings to the school, which
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: is thrilling to them because it's a totally closed environment.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: That's this microcosm of society with five hundred girls who
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: are arranged in brick cottages with nice lattice work trim.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: So jail Moreno moves to Hudson with Helen Hall Jennings.
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  Speaker 1: And he goes for it because he's living. Is he
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: at this point well known, what's his level.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Of He's becoming better known. But he is a person
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: who wants to be operating on the biggest scale possible,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: and this scale of experiment is an opportunity for him
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: to do that. So I think he sees it as
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: a big break.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: So the European genius Meglomaniac and his brilliant data minded
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: research partner get on the train from Manhattan, come up
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: two hours to Hudson to conduct one of the first
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: and most dramatic experiments of his kind ever.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: An attempt to understand the social dynamics of a girl's
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: prison reform school. There are five hundred girls in this school.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Roughly five hundred girls.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he descends on the school, he and Helen
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: hel Jennings and what do they do.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: So the first thing they do is they hand out
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: questionnaires to all the girls. That's say, you know, choose
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the top five girls in this community that you want
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: to live with and now and tell us why, and
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: then choose the five girls that you absolutely do not
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: want to live with. And so it's kind of reading
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: his account of this, it's like really dense. I mean,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: he doesn't really write in English very well at this
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: point in his life, and there's a ton of data,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: but you get these kind of reprints of the things
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: that the girls say. So we actually had an actress
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: read one of them out, and this is One of
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the comments in the questionnaire Dee, I want in my
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: cottage because I feel towards her, like she is my
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: little sister I never had any and I like to
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: take care of her.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: Mostly she's just a lonesome little child you.
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: Just have to be fond of.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: So they like gather all these questionnaires from the girls
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: about how they feel about each other, and then they
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: begin to calculate from that, you know, where are their
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: mutual attractions, where does everyone hate each other? And like
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: to what degree do these cottage groupings even make sense?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: And they want to start putting a number to that.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: But it's not just the questionnaires. They begin to do
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of observing of the girls, like watching them
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: work in the steam laundry, watching them make rugs, or
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: like shine up antiques, and that becomes data too, And
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: all of this is used in service of figuring out
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: who's isolated in the community, who's rejected by the community,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: who's beloved by the community. But they're observing everything they're collecting,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: like Marina at one point says, they collect ten thousand
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: pages of data. And one of the things about this
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: new science is you have that much data and you
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: can't conceive of it all like it's before computers. There's
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: no way to really understand what that all means except
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: for a map, and that is the critical thing that
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: they do is create these really intricate maps of what
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the community looks like. So like this this map right
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: here is the entire community of the school.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, it looks like a looks like a giant
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: spider's web. Yeah, And he has nodes one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, twelve, thirteen.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Is each one of these nodes a group of girls
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: or a single girl?
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Each one of those big circles is a cottage?
• 17:00
  Speaker 7: Oh?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I see, Oh I see no, But I've been putting
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: any further. Do we believe these maps? Say, do we
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: think he is actually act? You're accurately capturing the patterns
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: of relationships and influence within the community.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I think he misses a lot. And also there's this
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: kind of forced thing about it, like none of these
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: girls are consenting to it, Like who knows about if
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: they're telling him the truth? But I think that there
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: is genuine insight there. And one of the reasons is
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: there's this thing that happens. It starts on the Halloween
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: night of nineteen thirty two, there's a party in one
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: of the cottages and somebody creates a distraction and two
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: of the girls, Ruth and Marie, run away from the cottage.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And then something really weird happens, Like, over a total
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: of fourteen days, fourteen girls run away. It's kind of
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: this chain reaction. Nobody really understands why it's happening, but
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: it's like a runaway rate that's thirty times higher than normal.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: And this happens after Marine has collected a lot of
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: his data.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: He has an outbreak essentially of girls who are who
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: get this idea to flee, to run away. Yeah, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: he's trying to trace was he trying to trying to
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: trace the source of the outbreak or to see how
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the idea of running away had traveled through the community.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's trying to see how the idea of running
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: away travels through the community. Which is this kind of
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: you know, you talk about this a lot, this idea
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: of an idea being contagious. He posits that there's not
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: some central reason why the girls are running away.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so is he saying that his hypothesis would
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: be the group who run away are all linked, are
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: intimately linked according to his network analysis.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, so that's his explanation, and so he and Jennings
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: go to their maps and try and figure out if
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: it's true. What his theory is that there's some way
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: that this impulse to run away is traveling through the
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: network of girls, and he and Jennings trace this in
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: the map and then call it proof that networks exist.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And one of the rea he's confident in it is
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: because then based on those same questionnaires about who likes whom,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: who doesn't like whom, he rearranges the cottages and over
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the next some period of months, the number of runaways
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: dwindles pretty radically. And so the thought is that's the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: evidence that this is in some way meaningful, is that
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: the rearrangement seems to work.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: This whole thing is started by two girls. Yeah, what
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: does network theory tell us about those who originate the epidemic?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Were they socially influential girls?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So no, they're actually like pretty isolated girls. So this
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: is like a map of them. That's one of those
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: is Ruth, and one of those is Marie. And basically,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: like red lines are are lines of attraction, Black lines
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: are lines of rejection, and so they're really close. They
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: dislike the same people, they like the same people. They
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: really like each other. But on the broader map, not
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of lines of influence run towards them, except for,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: you know, a couple significant ones that connect them to
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the people who then begin to run away next.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see, so they Our first observation is the
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: two who begin the epidemic are closely bound to each
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: other but isolated from everyone else. So there's a little
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: social there's not a lot of glue holding them in place.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like the most popular girls in the
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: reformatory runaway and then everyone follows suit. But like with
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: all of this stuff, it's there's only so much he's seeing,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: and there's only so much he's allowing himself to say.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: And they also have this agenda of proving that their
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: science works. Their account is the only account we have
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: of what actually happened and how successful their stuff was.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: But so this is his explanation.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: But he's got this big idea, and he and Jennings
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: have the evidence he thinks proves it. How does he
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: get the word out?
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Actually, the first place, he publishes as results it's kind
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: of like a science fair. Is this big physicians conference
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: that happens at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan. I think
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: it happens on like April second, nineteen thirty three. He
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: goes to the waldorfath story, he takes the train down
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: from Hudson, goes the water for his storia. They put
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the maps on the walls and it's kind of a
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: big deal. Like The New York Times writes a story
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: that says, like emotions mapped by new geography. He calls
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: it psychological geography. He's riding high. He says he's going
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: to make a map of all the emotions in New
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: York City. And that's the first place he publishes it.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: But then he goes back to the school. And it's
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: a year after that the book comes out called Who
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Shall Survive? She's the book you have which is this?
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: This is actually one of the original books. This is
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: from nineteen thirty four. I took it out from the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: library and it's like a year overdue now. So that's
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: if anyone's listening to this, I will be returning it someday.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: That's a Pushkin promise. We always return our library books.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: And after the break, we'll find out what all this
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: research has to do with el Fitzgerald. Okay, back did
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: the reformatory. The social scientist JAYL. Moreno and his research
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: partner Helen Hall Jennings had been making a study of
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: a girl's reform school down the street from where we
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: are right now in Hudson. It's the nineteen thirties. They've
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: just debuted some of their research in Manhattan at the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Waldorf Astoria. Big deal. And then someone new shows up
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: at the school, right Ben.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, sixteen days after he publishes all this stuff on
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the walls of the Waldorf Astoria, a new girl has
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: checked into the Hudson Reformatory. Ella Fitzgerald.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the most one of the most famous
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: and extraordinary singers of the twentieth century.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Who, unbeknownst to everyone in her lifetime, was an inmate
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: at the school in between the time when her mom
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: died and the day that she became famous at the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Apollo Theater singing in an amateur contest.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: I was fifteen, because from there we went to the
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: amateur contest.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: She never talked publicly about this fact that she was
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: an inmate at the training school for girls, and it
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: wasn't even known publicly until after her death in the nineties,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: when this intrepid investigative reporter Nina Bernstein figured it out.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But what we know is she's at the training school
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: starting April eighteenth, nineteen thirty three. When she's held, it's
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: like a week before her sixteenth birthday because her mother
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: has just died. So her mother dies when she's fifteen, yeah,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: and she starts to take odd jobs, so she's running numbers.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: She's a lookout for a brothel. She gets picked up
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: by the cops, sentenced to the training school, and she
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: checks in just over two weeks after Moreno's shown his
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: first diagrams from the research. She's then there for like
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: about a year, and what we know of her time
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: there is through Nina Bernstein's reporting talking to people who
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: worked at the training school and remembered her. They would
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: ask her to come back to be to talk to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: the girls, and she never would, so Bernstein talked to
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: them about what's known about her. You know, people remember
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: she had amazing penmanship, she was an excellent student. One
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: day she was invited to a church nearby with a
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: group of the black girls who liked to sing and
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: was said to have sung her heart out, but she
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: was there at the time that the study was being made,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and her experience there's significant to me, not just because
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: she's a really famous person who intersects with this place,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: but because it blies Loreno's study, like it shows what's
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: actually happening there that's not captured in his maps and
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: new science.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And sure enough she.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: She is thought to have run away. Yeah, so basically
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: she's checked in there. What we know from Nina Eernstein's
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: reporting is she wasn't allowed to sing in the all
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: white choir, must have stayed one of the two cottages
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the black girls were allowed to live in, probably like
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: all of the black girls had to do laundry for
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: the white girls. But she was also kept in the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: basement of one of the colleges at the training school
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: and beaten. But then there's this vagueness around how she
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: leaves the training school. But because of the parole records,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it's plausible that she ran away and she's living back
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: in New York, I think in Yonkers, and she's homeless,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: like she's wearing ragged clothes, and she and a group
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: of her friends decide to enter the amateur Talent Night
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: at the Apollo Theater, which is this competition where if
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: you win, you get to play at the Apollo for
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: a week. And she at this point thinks she's going
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to be a dancer, so she's playing to enter as
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: a dancer. I mean, do you want to hear the
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: tape of her telling the story? So this is her
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: towards the end of her career talking to Andre Previn.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: When you first started, you had visions of not being
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: a singer.
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: You were going to be a dancer. Is that right right?
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: Tell me that, Oh you really want to hear that?
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Will just started back in my hometown and Yonkers and
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: I was what they called, you know, the greatest little
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: dancer in Younkers. And we used to go down to
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: the Pollow on amateur night, my girlfriends and I and
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: you know, like they always tell you if you want
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: to be an amateur, to shine and drop your name
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: in the box. And being from young because we never
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: thought anybody would send a postcard to young Kers, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: the three of us we put our names in and
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: I was the one who was chosen and I made
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: up you know, they say, well if you don't go,
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: you're chicken. So we went, and believe it or not,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I was the first amateur that they called. And there
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: were two sisters who were the dance and the sisters
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: in the world called it Edward Sisters, and they were
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: starring at the Pollow and they closed the show with
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: up and I when I saw those ladies dance, I says,
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: no way, I'm going out there and trying to dance,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: because they stopped the show. I was the first one
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: was called, and when I got out there, somebody hollered out.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Nobody is, what is she gonna do?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: So this is like a story she tells all the time.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: What nobody knew is that when she was on stage
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: at the Apollo, she was just out of the training school.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And my mother had a record of Miss Connie Boswell,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: who I think was one of the greatest singers that
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: ever lived.
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: And she used to.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Play Obtic of my affection and Judy and I got
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: so I had, you know, used to sing it. So
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the man said sing something, well, I tried to sing Judy,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: and I think miss Connie boswa because then I tried
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: to sing like her and I sang if a voyage
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: ben break the whole of the sproom that's Judy and
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: everybody says all that girl can sing, and the people
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: plought it so much. I sang Object of my Affection.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: That was the other side of the record, and I
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: won first prize. So then that made me feel like,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: you know, well, I wanted to try to be a singer.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I just I love it so much. And I think
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: it's the You know, it's obvious, but if she's a
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: note in these maps, we know her so well as
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: a person. But obviously, like every single person in the
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: maps had a full life.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Too, and you actually think.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: You found Yeah, I think I found a notation.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: You found her place in the social diaga.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, I found a girl who's plausibly ele Fitzgerald, but
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: I can't know for sure.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: It's a black girl named Ella.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: In this book, there's a mention of a girl named Ella.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: All the girls on the maps are given initials, like
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: two letter initials that don't correspond with their names, and
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: there's mention of a girl named Ella. She's given the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: two letter initial GA, and then like one hundred pages
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: later there's a map with a GA on it that
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: specifies the Gas is a black girl. So there's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Ga named Ella who's a black girl, and we know
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: that Marina was making the study at the time when
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Ella was also in the school.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Do you make this discovery or did.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I'm in this discovery because I read this.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: You've contributed to the legend of both Elafazgerald and Jail Marina.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Yes, this is correct.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And what happens when Moreno and Jennings's research comes out.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: It has a pretty significant reception. Moreno has gotten involved
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: in the new Deal, but like the most significant thing
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: that comes out of the ground swell of support is
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: he launches a journal called Sociometry. But it's this really
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: influential journal and you know, like six degrees of separation
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: is tested there. All of these leading lights of social
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: science like George Gallup, Margaret Mead, John Dewey, they're like
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: involved in the editorial board or publishing in the journal.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It's finally like a platform for him to share these
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: ideas about social networks basically with a broader public. And
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that field social network analysis doesn't really take off until
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: the seventies or eighties, but he's credited with being a
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: major forerunner of it and doing it in this experiment.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: This story is significant to me in part because it's
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: sort of the story of science in the twentieth century,
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: or like one kind of science in the twentieth century,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: which is I think in the quest to institutionalize his
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: ideas and to be as big a player as he
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: could be. I feel like Jael Moreno kind of pulled
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: his punches, like he had ten thousand pages of data.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I don't believe that he didn't know what was actually
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: going on at the school, and specifically what was happening
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: to the black girls at the school. And it's not
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: that that kind of thing wasn't sayable in the nineteen thirties,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: because the Attorney General had already said that the school
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: should be desegregated.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: So the school is segregated, and then New York State
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: turn General has asked that it be desegregated, and the
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: school Morse doesn't want to do it. And in his analysis,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Moreno is kind of oblivious or or disregarding of this issue,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: is what you were saying.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: He covers the fact that it's segregated. It's just not
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: like the sort of like beating of the girls in
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: the basement, but more like the corporal punishment stuff. The
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: other reasons why girls might be running away. These sorts
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: of issues aren't in the text, and like the degree
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: to which the segregation is institutionalized isn't really covered either.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: But I'm you know, it's ninety we're talking about the
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: early thirties. Nothing's integrated in the early thirties.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: But there was an expectation that this place would be
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is. And it's also like Harlem Renaissance
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: is going on. There's a lot of black power in
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: New York City as of the nineteen twenties. And when
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: there's an investigation into the school after Moreno's study, not
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: because of it, there is, it's led by a black
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: doctor in partnership, but the governor. There's a level of
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: state support for the idea that this is, this shouldn't
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: be happening that suggests that it's not really so beyond
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the realm of possibility.
• 32:18
  Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: The person I'm I, the person who I would fault
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: is not Morse so much as Moreno. He's the outsider.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: He's the one who's who sees himself as a revolutionary,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: who's not who doesn't at least profess to be held
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: by the you know, the standards of the rest of society.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Who is, as you say, coming up with a new
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: idea that professes to paint a picture of the whole community.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: And you could easily see that someone who was if
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: he was as revolutionary as he claimed to be, he
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: can easily see a version of this where he would
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: have said, look, this is what segregation does. Like he
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: came with a tool to see what was wrong with
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: segregation and turned a blind eye to it. I mean interestingly,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: of course, social science becomes hugely important in the strategy
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: of the civil rights movement and the legal strategy of.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: The civil Brown versus borders and on.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the fifteen sixties, So like there's an opening.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: This is what's so fascinating about this story is that
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: this here's this brilliant man who he's blind in so
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: many ways to the possibilities of his own fame and greatness. Right,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: he had the tool that everybody would end up using
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: twenty years later to break down the door of prejudice,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: and he didn't understand he had the tool and went
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: back to doing psychodrama like he had it. Right, does
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: he continue over the rest of his life pursuing social
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: network theory or doing psychodrama?
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I mean he stays involved with sociometry. I think he
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: just wanted to be a direct there. Like there's a
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: story he tells about when he was a kid that
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to me is kind of structured the way I think
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: about him. And I think he's sharing it because he
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: thinks it has some fundamental truth about himself contained in it.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: But I just want to play you this one thing,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: this is about when he's a child, I think in
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Bucharest still.
• 34:26
  Speaker 7: One saturday my parents got away, a crowd of children
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: gathered in our house in the basement, and I still
• 34:34
  Speaker 7: remember that. They came to me and said, now, you Jack,
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: this was my first name. What are you going to
• 34:40
  Speaker 7: do today?
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: I said, let's play God. Well, I said enough, But
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: one of the children said, and who is God? I said,
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: I am God, and you are my angels. And then
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: they all said, let's have it's God the heaven.
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: And we went with the basement and we do all
• 34:55
  Speaker 7: the chairs in the house, and they built the various
• 35:00
  Speaker 7: heavens up to the top, and on top they had
• 35:02
  Speaker 7: a chairir for God himself, and I was in help
• 35:06
  Speaker 7: for all the children to sit there on well as
• 35:10
  Speaker 7: it is, I was gone, and I stood still the
• 35:13
  Speaker 7: dangers began to run around to sing, and suddenly while
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: the angels said, why don't you fly? And I stretched
• 35:19
  Speaker 7: my arms and I fed down and my right art.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: It's just like I just loved the story, but like
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: that's kind of his whole thing. It's like he tries
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: to play god, he falls down, he breaks his arm,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: like he always wants to be the guy who sits
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: above and looks down, and that's a fatal flaw of is.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: We think that's I think that's a nice I think
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: that's a nice think it's a nice way to end.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For more psychodrama, go subscribe to the Last Archive
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: to hear six episodes of Gripping Intellectual History Ben Scott
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: stories on mid century songwriting, machines, invasive species, panics, freelance
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: wiretappers turned evangelists, and time travel. Subscribe, but you'll also
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: hear a whole different version of the story Ben told
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: today coming soon. He won't want to miss it. Ben
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: produced this episode of Revisionist History as well, with help
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: from Jacob Smith and Kiara Powell. We were edited by
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Peter Clowney and Julia Barton, Engineering by Nina Lawrence, Mastering
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: by Sarah Bugaire. Original music by Matthias Bossi and John
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Evans of Stellwagon Sinfinnat. I'm Malcolm Gladmo