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Riots in France: Could the Violence Spread to Germany? · Im Krisenmodus

0:00
Die Übersetzung von Jans Stimme vom Deutschen ins Englische wurde mit einer KI erstellt.
0:29
Protest researcher Simon Thun says there is one crucial difference.
0:35
We have to look at this in the context of Germany's protest culture.
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In Germany, confrontations like these are very unusual.
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That also means that people who might potentially take part in them aren't familiar
0:47
with this kind of protest.
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So, for them, getting into a physical confrontation with the police isn't the
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first thing that comes to mind.
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What drives people to protest that way? Why do protests in France keep escalating?
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And how likely are we to see images and videos like these in Germany too?
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That's what we're looking at today on In Crisis Mode.
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In Crisis Mode, the podcast from Conflict Zones with Jan Jessen.
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Hello, I'm Jan Jessen, Political Editor-in-Chief at the NRZ and a war and crisis
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reporter for Funka Media Group.
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France is in turmoil. Several cities have seen serious unrest.
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Shops have been looted, police stations attacked and people injured.
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In Limoges, even the town hall is on fire. The government is responding with
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curfews and bans on demonstrations.
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But the protests began very differently. School students were calling for better learning conditions.
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Aber in nur ein paar Wochen, ihre Aktions wurden in eine Nation-Wide-Move.
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Mehr und mehr Menschen kamen auf die Straße.
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Es war nicht mehr nur über den Bildungssystem und den Problemen.
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Die Proteste kamen zu reflektieren Angst über soziale Inequalität,
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die riesenggültige Kosten für die Leben und die Regierung.
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Last Saturday, mehr als half a million Menschen demonstriert es peacefully.
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Nachdem, aber, sehr viel rioting broke. Wer ist die Violenz?
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Wie ist es mit den Original-Protesten?
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Und warum wird France immer wieder durchgeführt? Ich habe zwei Leute darüber gesprochen.
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Stefan Brendel hat sich von France als Journalist für Jahre.
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Er ist Funker Media Groups Correspondent
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in Paris und kennt die Länder politische Konflikte inside-out.
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Simon Thun ist ein Sociologist und Protest Researcher bei der Institut für Protest
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und Movement Research in Berlin.
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Ich habe ihn darüber gesprochen, warum Protests kann eskalate und was setzt
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France apart von Deutschland.
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First, let's go to Paris. When I speak to Stefan Brandl, he has just cycled through the city.
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He wanted to see the damage for himself. And he noticed something interesting.
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In some neighborhoods, there is barely any sign of the unrest,
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while on the other side of the Seine, the scene is completely different.
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It's quite difficult to get an overall picture, Especially because we've all
3:11
seen those terrible images of destruction and damage.
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But if you live in Paris, you also have to remember that this doesn't cover the entire city.
3:23
Yesterday I cycled through the south of the city, along the left bank of the Seine.
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As a journalist I was looking for signs of the destruction, but I couldn't find any.
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Then I crossed the bridge over the Seine and came across a truly awful,
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almost warlike scene on Rue Etienne Marcel.
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There was hardly a shop, boutique or store whose windows hadn't been smashed.
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Wenn man sich zu Fuß bewegt, ist man eigentlich in der ganzen Straße und in
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den ganzen Viertel läuft man auf Glassplittern.
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Und ich habe mit einer Frau gesprochen, deren Hund sie mit Strümpfen versehen
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hat, damit er sich nicht verletzt.
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A dog wearing socks because there's broken glass everywhere.
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It's an almost absurd scene.
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But it also shows how practically some people in Paris are dealing with this
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escalation of violence.
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Above all, it shows just how much the unrest has changed everyday life in some neighborhoods.
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But how did things get this far?
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It all began online. September 21, students blocked Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Secondary School near Paris.
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They were protesting a lack of staff and the dilapidated state of the school.
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Among other things, the deputy headteacher's position and a school nurse's post had not been filled.
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The action spread on social media, as so many protests have in recent years.
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Other schools joined in, and before long the issue was no longer just about
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better learning conditions.
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The student protests were taking place in a society where discontent was already widespread.
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The government was planning major spending cuts. Prime Minister Sébastien Lecornu
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announced cuts worth 54 billion euros.
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It's hardly surprising that many people were worried about their future.
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They were struggling with high prices, rising living costs, and the feeling
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that politicians weren't taking their problems seriously.
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More and more groups joined the protests. Students, Trade Unions,
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Farmers and the Yellow Vests who have been a force in France since 2018.
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You may remember the huge Yellow Vest protests in 2018 and 2019.
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Many of the protesters came from working class and lower middle class backgrounds.
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They demonstrated on a massive scale and there were major street battles and
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clashes with the police.
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On Saturday, October 17th, more than half a million people took to the streets
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peacefully, but afterwards the situation escalated in several cities.
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Shops were looted, public buildings attacked, and suddenly the headlines were
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no longer about the demonstrators' demands, but about images of violence.
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Who are the people rioting, and what do they have to do with the original protests?
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Stefan Brendel says very different groups have come together,
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people with different social backgrounds, different problems and in some cases
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completely different goals.
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I think man könnte fast von einem soziologischen Unterschied sprechen.
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Ich meine, diese Gelbwesten, das waren und sind Leute, die eher aus ländlichen
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Gegenden stammen. could almost describe it as a sociological difference.
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Die Yellow Vests waren, und still sind, die Menschen aus den Ruralen,
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die haben die Jobs haben. Sie sind nicht unabhängig, oder keine Geld.
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Die meisten haben eine Income, aber es ist sehr hoch.
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Sie müssen sehr gut budgeten. In der Mitte der Woche haben sie oft keine Geld left.
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Sie versuchen, die Unterstützung von der Regierung, insbesondere Welfare,
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Benefizienz oder andere Formen von Unterstützung.
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Das ist sehr unterschiedlich von den Sekunden-School-Studienern,
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die in den Städten demonstrieren und in den Städten gehen, besonders in den Städten.
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Dann gibt es den Black Block, den Far Left, die von einem völlig anderen Hintergrund,
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und hat sehr unterschiedliche Aims.
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So, Sie könnten sagen, dass drei oder vier verschiedene Social-Gruppen sind zusammen.
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Das macht nicht unbedingt eine kohärente politische Agenda, aber es macht einen
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Level von Potenzial-Violenz die sehr schwierig zu verhalten werden.
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Vielleicht drei, vier verschiedene soziologische Bevölkerungsgruppen da zusammenkommen.
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Das gibt nicht unbedingt eine politische Kohärenz, aber es führt dazu,
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dass ein gewisses Gewaltpotenzial da ist, das sich sehr schwer bekämpfen lässt.
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So very different people are coming together Students demanding better learning
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conditions Workers whose wages are barely enough to live on Groups from the
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militant left looking for confrontation,
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And marginalised people from the banlieus The suburbs around French cities Many
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of them from migrant backgrounds,
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They're all on the same streets But they're by no means pursuing the same goals,
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And then there are people who simply take advantage of the chaos,
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The French government is mainly blaming far-left groups for the unrest.
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Aber in Deutschland, auch, die Leute sind jetzt über die Veränderung.
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According zu Bild, Deutschland Minister Alexander Dobrindt hat gesprochen von
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left-wingen Extremisten und einem migranten Milieu joining forces zu kämpfen
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den demokratischen System.
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Ist da eine Evidence für diese Verbindung? Was role die junge Menschen aus den
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Frenchen Suburbs, known als die Banlieus, spielen?
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Und kann Religion sein in die Veränderung?
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Was den Islam betrifft, sehe ich keine Beziehung, keinen Link zu den heutigen Krawallen.
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Was hingegen die Vorstädte anbelangt, ist es schon klar, dass,
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ich würde mal schätzen, eine kleine Mehrheit aus diesen Banlieue-Vierteln kommt.
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Aber es gibt, wie gesagt, auch andere Mitläufer, Trittbrettfahrer und auch Agitatoren.
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As far as Islam is concerned, I don't see any connection with the current riots.
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As for the suburbs, I think it's clear that perhaps a small majority of those
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involved come from the Banlouz. But as I said, there are also other people joining
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in, opportunists and agitators.
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More generally, I do think that parts of the third generation of immigrants
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in France follow different rules, rules that don't have much to do with our
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understanding of the rule of law.
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Sie sind nicht das für politische Gründe, weil sie nicht die France lieben oder
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weil sie die alten Schöne mit dem alten Kolonialen.
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Es gibt auch viel stupendliche Stufen. Die Looters stole mobile Phones und waren
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bereits offensichtlich für den Weg online.
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Die Polizei war natürlich schnell zu step in und arresten sie.
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Die Regierung ist jetzt bereit, zu beurteilen.
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Diese sind junge Leute, die, wie ich gesagt, follow ihre eigenen Regeln.
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They may know that what they're doing isn't right, but they don't really have
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a sense of wrongdoing. And I think we need to be cautious here.
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The situation is very complex.
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France has a colonial history.
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At the same time, many young people of Maghreb origin seem unwilling to assimilate
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into French society or find a way to live within the French Republic.
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They live on the margins of society and often struggle to integrate into the
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labor market or society in other ways.
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Da muss man schon auch eine gewisse Vorsicht walten lassen.
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Die Dinge sind sehr komplex. Frankreich hat wie gesagt eine Kolonialgeschichte.
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Umgekehrt ist bei vielen, vor allem Maghreb-Jugendlichen, keine Bereitschaft
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zu spüren, sich zu assimilieren.
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In Frankreich, auch mit der Französischen Republik, ein Auskommen zu finden.
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Die leben am Rande der Gesellschaft und sind oft nicht in der Lage,
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dann auch auf dem Arbeitsmarkt oder anderweitig sich in die Gesellschaft zu integrieren.
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Er ist nicht so, dass viele French-Subserbs sind, die Menschen von Nord- oder
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West-Afrika auswählen sind.
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Viele haben lange been French-Sitizien in der zweiten oder even third-generationen.
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Aber diese Neubauern haben auch für Jahre altes Konflikt über soziale Exclusion,
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ein lack von prospects und relations mit der Polizei.
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Die Polizei ist oft verwendet, zu benutzen, zu benutzen, zu benutzen,
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zu benutzen, zu benutzen, zu benutzen, und zu benutzen, zu benutzen.
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Aber nichts davon sagt uns, wer in den aktuellen Unrest ist,
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wenn es, was die individuelle Verletzungen motiviert. So die wichtigste Frage
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ist nicht nur, wer ist auf den Straßen, aber warum die Situation war, in der ersten Zeit.
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Die relationship zwischen den demonstratoren und den Polizei spielt eine wichtige Rolle hier.
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The French police have a reputation for taking a very tough approach,
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particularly at demonstrations.
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And the clashes didn't begin last weekend. Confrontations with the police took
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place during the first student protests too.
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How can encounters like these develop into an ever-growing cycle of violence?
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I spoke to protest researcher Simon Thun. Ja, ich glaube, das,
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was wir da in Frankreich beobachten konnten, das hat eine doppelte Geschichte.
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Einmal haben die Proteste selbst eine Vorgeschichte. Das heißt,
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das hat jetzt nicht am Wochenende angefangen. I think what we've seen in France has two sides to it.
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First, the protests themselves have a history. They didn't start last weekend.
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They've been going on for several weeks.
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The police responded with violence to the student protests very early on.
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Schools had been occupied and access blocked to draw attention to the terrible
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conditions, both in terms of staffing and the state of the buildings.
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That led to confrontations with the police at a very early stage.
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So there was already a history of violent confrontations during the student protests.
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When I see the other side, in this case the police, as an enemy,
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I become more willing to use violence myself.
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That's generally how confrontations involving violence work.
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Wenn ich das Gegenüber, in dem Fall die Polizei, als Gegner wahrnehme,
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dann sinkt die Schwelle, selbst Gewalt anzuwenden.
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Das gilt erstmal generell in Gewaltkonfrontationen.
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Of course, it does not justify attacks on police officers, looting or setting shops on fire.
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Why does France keep seeing these escalations? We remember the Yellow Vest protests in 2018 and 2019.
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Barricades were burning then too, and there were serious street battles.
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And they weren't the only examples.
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France saw similar confrontations in the 1960s, 70s and 80s.
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There were major farmers and
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wine growers protests, some of them involving deaths and serious injuries.
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France has a long history of intense social conflict.
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Simon Thun says that also has to do with the country's political system.
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One difference between Germany and France is that we have two very different political systems.
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France has a centralized system with few intermediary institutions.
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Laws are simply passed first, and then the government sees how people react.
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If the reaction is strong, the laws may quickly be withdrawn or scaled back
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from what was originally planned.
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Germany works differently. It has a federal system. Education is a clear example.
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Responsibility lies primarily with the individual states.
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That means protests in France tend to erupt more suddenly. There's a clear opponent
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in the central government, and tensions can boil over at moments like this.
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In Germany, protests are much more continuous and much more part of everyday
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life. der Protest dann sozusagen in solchen Momenten hochkocht.
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In Deutschland haben wir einen sehr viel dauerhafteren Strom von Protesten,
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der so sehr viel alltäglicher In France, protests are therefore directed very
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strongly at the government in Paris.
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Für viele Menschen ist es der Hauptgrund der Angst.
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In Deutschland, politische Entscheidungen sind über verschiedene Levels der
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Regierung. Das machte nicht automatisch die Proteste peaceful,
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aber es schäte wie sie entwickeln und wer sie target.
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There is another difference. In France, fierce clashes with the police have
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long been part of the history of social protest.
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In Germany, such confrontations are much less common.
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And today, there is another factor that can significantly change the dynamics
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of unrest. Social media.
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Images of burning cars, smashed shop windows and street battles spread within seconds.
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Often, those are the images that go on to dominate the public debate.
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What does that mean for the protest movement?
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Social media matter because images of the unrest are available in real time.
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Reactions happen immediately, and they are heavily shaped by the images people see.
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We no longer see the huge crowds at demonstrations. Instead,
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we see individual clips of violent escalations, and those clips become the basis for our discussions.
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That puts even more emphasis on violence.
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It makes taking part more attractive to groups that use violence because they
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know they'll get everyone's attention.
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But it also increases the pressure on politicians to act.
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Sich zu beteiligen, weil sie wissen, dass sie die ganze Aufmerksamkeit haben.
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Das macht aber auch sozusagen den Handlungsdruck in der Politik noch mal größer
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als er sowieso schon ist.
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So, violence gets the most attention, that's tragic.
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It's true of social media, but also of traditional media, which naturally focus
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on images of burning barricades and similar scenes, rather than on the hundreds
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of thousands of people demonstrating peacefully.
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Das macht es schwierig. Als Medienorganisationen müssen wir auch fragen,
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ob wir den Fokus in der richtige Richtung stellen müssen.
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Aber diese Beobachtung ändert sich auch, wie die Menschen die Proteste verursachen
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und erhöht sich die Druck auf die Regierung zu tun.
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In France, die Autoritäten versuchen, zu verhindern, weiteres Unrest,
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mit curfews und bans auf Demonstrationen.
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According to the figures available, 2,331 people were taken into custody nationwide last weekend.
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The government faces a dilemma. It has to stop the violence and protect the public.
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At the same time, the social problems that brought so many people onto the streets have not gone away.
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And that could be politically dangerous for the parties in the centre.
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France is heading towards next year's presidential election,
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which is about six months away.
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The incumbent president, Emmanuel Macron, cannot run again.
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And two of his most prominent political opponents seem poised to benefit from the situation.
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Marine Le Pen on the right and Jean-Luc Mélenchon on the left.
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But who really gains from the unrest? Our France correspondent,
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Stéphane Brendel, believes Marine Le Pen has the advantage.
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Ich glaube, es ist relativ klar, dass Marine Le Pen von diesen schweren Unruhen profitieren wird.
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Ich denke, es ist ziemlich klar, dass Marine Le Pen will benefit from this serious Unrest.
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In recenten Monaten, sie hat sich sehr moderatet, almost statesmanlike,
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strongly Republican und respectable.
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Das ist anders aus der AfD in Deutschland, oder in Eastern Germany,
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wo provocation, und vielleicht deliberate, politische Provokation, spielt eine Rolle.
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Le Pen ist die andere Richtung in Frankreich. Sie presentiert sich als eine
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Stateswoman und ist bereits über die Zeit, wenn sie in der Elysee-Palasse ist.
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Jean-Luc Mélenchon may be more likely to suffer from this massive outbreak of violence.
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At first, he may have gained something from the student protests.
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Er hat auch sehr skillfully gewohnt, die Unterstützung in den Suburbs gewinnen.
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Aber seit dem Saturday, als die Proteste eskalte und die Szenen wurden genügend
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gefährlich, Mélenchon hat wahrscheinlich zu einer Disadvantage getroffen. Schülerprotesten.
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Er hat es auf relativ geschickte Weise auch geschafft, die Vorstädte auf seine Seite zu bringen.
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Aber jetzt, seit Samstag, wo wo diese Proteste eskaliert sind und wo es wirklich.
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Beängstigende Szenen gab, ist wahrscheinlich Mélenchon eher im Nachteil.
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Marine Le Pen could therefore benefit from the unrest.
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This is not unique to France. In Germany too, right-wing politicians often try
22:15
to capitalize on violent clashes, particularly when people from migrant backgrounds are involved.
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The uncomfortable truth is that the perpetrators are playing into the hands of the right.
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The more images of violence and destruction dominate public debate,
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the more attention shifts to security and law and order, key issues for the political right.
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That could become a problem for Jean-Luc Mélenchon. He is trying to turn social
22:42
discontent into political support.
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Aber wenn die Protests getrennt werden, über alles mit den Börsen und looten
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Schöpfen, dann kommen auch unter Druck.
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Das ist unser Correspondent's Assessant.
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Ob es wird, in nächstes Jahr der Presidential-Elektion sein, bleibt zu sehen.
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Aber die Unrest ist bereits verändern, die politische Debatte.
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Erstens, die Fokus war auf die Schöne-Stelle in Schulen, die riesige Kosten
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für die Leben und ob die Leute noch fühlt sich von der Regierung.
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Jetzt ist der Fokus mainly auf violence, Sicherheit und der Staat's response.
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Das lässt die peacefulen Demonstratern ein großes Problem face.
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Seine Demonstrationen rischen, sich durch den Unresten zerbrechen. Was passiert dann?
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Stefan Brendel sieht bereits neue Anwälte für Proteste.
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Die Yellow Vests können auch bereit sein, wieder zu mobilisieren.
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Gleichzeitig versuchen die politische und soziale Gruppe, die Situation zu schalten.
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Es gibt, wenn man in sozialen Medien schaut, jetzt schon Aufrufe für kommenden
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Samstag, Auch in zwei Wochen.
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Die Gelbwesten, die waren schon letzten Samstag present, nur sind die völlig
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untergegangen. If you look at social media, there are already calls for demonstrations
24:03
next Saturday, and again in two weeks.
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The yellow vests were present last Saturday, but they were completely lost in the general chaos.
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Es ist möglich, dass sie wieder mobilisieren können in den Ruralen,
24:17
vielleicht durch die Runde blockieren, wie sie in 2018 und 2019 bringen private
24:24
traffic zu einem Standstill.
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Das ist eine Möglichkeit. Aber in Paris, heute kann man eine Degree von Hesitanz
24:33
zwischen politischen und sozialen
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Bewegungen und Parten über die Strecke wieder so schnell zu kommen.
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The efforts of these parties and movements are now focused on de-escalation.
24:46
They are trying to calm things down, so it's still unclear how these movements will develop from here.
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Das ganze Bemühen dieser Parteien und Bewegungen läuft schon darauf hinaus,
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eine gewisse De-eskalisation zu erreichen.
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Man versucht, die Dinge zu beruhigen und es ist deshalb noch nicht sicher,
25:06
wie jetzt diese Bewegungen weitergezogen werden.
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Es bleibt sehen, ob die Situation in Frankreich wird, oder ob die Proteste wird weiterentwickeln.
25:20
Aber die Discontent, die so viele Menschen auf die Straße bringen,
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wird nicht einfach disappear.
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Und Frankreich ist nicht alleine. Menschen in anderen europäischen Ländern sind
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auch protesting against political decisions, the high cost of living and a lack of prospects.
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Italy, for example, has also seen violent unrest in recent days.
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The triggers may differ, but the questions are often the same.
25:46
Can I still afford to live? Do I have a future?
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And are politicians listening at all?
25:52
These concerns are widespread in Germany too. Social researcher Klaus Hörlmann
25:58
has warned in our newspapers against confusing the comparatively calm situation
26:03
on German streets with political satisfaction.
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Many young people are worried about their future, rising housing costs,
26:10
and their financial security.
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Youth researcher Simon Schnetzer also sees considerable potential for protest.
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He has even described it as a ticking time bomb.
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But dissatisfaction does not automatically mean people will take to the streets,
26:27
and protest certainly does not inevitably lead to violence.
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That brings us back to the question we asked at the beginning of this episode.
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Could we see unrest like this in France, here in Germany?
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Protest researcher Simon Thune believes it is possible in principle,
26:44
but he also sees important differences between the two countries.
26:55
That doesn't rule out the possibility that there are people who would want this
26:58
to happen and would see an opportunity in it.
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But they would need a larger, more chaotic situation in which to get something like this started.
27:06
We're not seeing major protests in Germany right now. I think there is a great
27:10
deal of dissatisfaction with social
27:12
policy, but people don't feel that protesting will achieve very much.
27:16
So, we're not in a situation that mirrors France.
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And I don't see the same potential among large numbers of people to express themselves in this way.
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Das Potenzial dafür, dass Menschen sich in der Form artikulieren.
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Simon Thun therefore considers an escalation as brutal as the one in France
27:35
unlikely in Germany at the moment.
27:37
That is good news at least, not because there is no discontent here or because
27:42
protests in Germany always remain peaceful.
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We remember the serious riots during the G20 summit in Hamburg in 2017,
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for example, or the fierce clandestine.
27:54
Über die Konstruktion der West-Runwein an Frankfurt Airport,
27:58
sowie über die Proteste gegen die Nutzung des Nutzers.
28:01
Demonstrations can get out of control in Germany, too.
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There's no question about that. But Thun currently sees no comparable situation,
28:11
no similarly broad protest movement, and no equivalent dynamic between demonstrators and the police.
28:19
Above all, violent confrontation is much less embedded in Germany's protest
28:24
culture than it is in France.
28:26
That doesn't mean similar unrest could never happen here.
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But the images from France are not proof that Germany is about to experience the same thing.
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What matters is the conditions under which people protest, how politicians and
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the police respond and which groups take part.
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Protest movements themselves can also play an important role.
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They don't have to stand by while others use their demonstrations as an opportunity for violence.
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Simon Thun recalls an incident during the G20 summit in Hamburg.
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Also diese Form von Selbstregulation findet statt, also die findet im Vorfeld
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von Protesten statt, indem man darüber nachdenkt, dass wir nicht darüber nachdenken.
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Es beginnt vor Protests, wenn Leute diskutieren, was ihre Protests soll,
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und was sie nicht wollen.
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Es also passiert in der Moment selbst. Take the G20 Summit in Hamburg.
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People had lit fires in the street, some dangerously close to residential buildings.
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Others stepped in and said, this isn't acceptable, you can't do that.
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We repeatedly see protest movements stepping in to stop such excesses,
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or at least clearly marking them as crossing a line.
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People who are demonstrating themselves but still step in when others cross the line.
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People who make it clear that violence against bystanders is not part of their protest.
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Of course, demonstrators cannot be expected to put themselves in danger,
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But protest movements can make clear what they stand for and what they do not.
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Let's remember the woman in Paris Stéphane Brandl told us about,
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the one putting socks on her dog's paws so it wouldn't get hurt by the broken glass on the street.
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For her, the unrest is not an abstract political debate.
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She has to live with the consequences of the violence, just like the people
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whose shops have been destroyed or who fear that their neighbourhood may see more unrest.
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At the same time, hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating peacefully
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for better living conditions.
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They want their demands to be heard. France faces a difficult task.
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The government has to protect people from violence, but it also has to find
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answers to the social problems that helped make this protest movement so large in the first place.
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And in Germany, two people are anxious about the future, worried about social
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insecurity, and feel that politicians do not adequately represent them,
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that does not mean we are on the brink of similar unrest.
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But it would be a mistake to take these concerns seriously only once people
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are out on the streets or the first cars are burning.
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Another problem is that social media play a major role not only in amplifying
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domestic grievances, but also in giving foreign actors a way to try to destabilize other countries.
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Ich bin über alle von Russland. Es gibt Bot-Netzungen, die online-Bot arbeiten.
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Es gibt considerable evidence von dieser, insbesondere von intelligente Agenziensten,
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und deren Ziel ist es, sozusagen, zu füllen Menschen's anger.
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Wir sehen dies in Deutschland, auch, wenn Far-Reit-Gruppen von AI-Generated
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Content durch A.I.-Generated Content und die Angst ist deliberately stirred up.
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I think this adds another serious challenge for societies. There are forces
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from outside that can amplify protests, potentially to the point where they turn violent.
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I believe it is extremely important to take people's concerns seriously.
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Peaceful protest should not have to turn violent before it gets attention.
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That was today's episode of Im Kreisen Modus.
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The podcast was produced by Alexander Baumeister, a journalist and radio editor
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at a radio station belonging to Funky Media Group.
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If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast and recommend it to others.
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It helps us reach more people with our stories. And I'd like to hear what you think.
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Do you feel that politicians take your concerns seriously?
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And what would need to happen for that to change? Write to us at christenmodus at funkemedian.de.
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Take care. Bye.