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CLASSIC: A Dead Pope Goes To Court · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians Catholic and non Catholic alike. Thank you
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: so much for tuning into this weekend's classic episode. I
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: am Ben. That's our super producer Max Noel.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: There's a.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Lot of Catholicism in the news recently, Yes.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Or a hat or whatever, Yeah, whatever you like, it's true.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: We've got a conclave, a real life conclave going down
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: as we speak, the process where in a new pope
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: is selected ORIP Pope Francis, he's the good pope. Many
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: have described him ass or maybe that's just me, but yeah,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a big deal.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and tune into our episode on the Prophecy of
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: the Popes from our peer podcast stuff they don't want
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: you to know where. Yeah, we go deep into some
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: lore of the Catholic Church, one of the most important,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I would say, one of the most important spiritual and
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: geopolitical entities on the planet as we speak. They're no
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: stranger to scandal and controversy and back in oh gosh,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: what was it twenty eighteen? Now you and I learned
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: about a thoroughly ridiculous courtroom situation.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely the title says it all, and it reminds me
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: of like a classic film or something from this fifties.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: A dead pope goes to court. It's like mister Smith
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: goes to Washington or something like that.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, so listening folks join us to learn what drove
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Pope Stephen the sixth, also sometimes called Pope Stephen the seventh.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: We could just say Pope Stephen is just funny in
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: and of itself. I don't know why, let's just call
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: him Pope Steve.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: While we're at Pope Pope Steve sounds like a guy
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: who has his street name. Anyway. True story. One time
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: this dude dug up one of his predecessors who had
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: long passed from this mortal veil, and put the guy's
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: body on trial.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Not weird at all, totally normal.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Nothing weird and super norms. Let's roll the ridiculous tape.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Okay, Usually when
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: we begin the show, we like to have some sort
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: of bit or some sort of reference, some sort of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: tangential thing. But this story is so strange that I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: feel like we I don't know how we open. I'm
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: just laughing to myself, Man, are you at a loss
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: for bits? I'm usually I've got a couple of back
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: pocket bits chomping at the bit, right, Uh, but I'm
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: not bitter about this. Hey, hey you're Nol.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: I am Nol, and you, sir, are Ben the bitmeister bowling.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you Nol. And we are joined
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: with our super producer, Casey Pegram.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I think none of us are Catholic, right.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I went to a Catholic mass like a couple times
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and I thought it was
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: very interesting. There was like a like a dude with
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: a robe waving around this like thing with smoke coming
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: out of sane what a thurible? Really?
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the word. I yeah, the instance. Yeah.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: So it's funny you mentioned that the first time I
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: ever saw a Catholic Mass, I was living in Guatemala
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and my Spanish wasn't very good, let alone my Latin.
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  Speaker 1: So I was completely out of my element, and I
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: thought it was fascinating, you know what I mean.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: So you're probably wondering why we're mentioning Catholicism here, ridiculous historians.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: It's because our show today takes us to a very
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: very strange episode in Catholic history, and for a long time.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: On another show we do stuff they want you to know,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: we had a running character that you used to do
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  Speaker 1: no knowl which was the Pope. Yes, yes, that's it.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome. But then I kind of came to my attention,
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  Speaker 2: maybe just through my own paranoia, that maybe it's not
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  Speaker 2: okay to do a voice for the Pope that sounds
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  Speaker 2: like a weird, strangulated muppet.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Well maybe, I mean maybe it had its time. Yeah,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: but I thought that was some good work there. Who's
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: that guy that does that podcast?
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: You made it weird? Pete Holmes, that's Casey on the Case. Yeah,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Pete Holmes. I saw him do stand up in La
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Prisidents Forget one time, and he had a really good
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: bit about how as a culture we have this bizarre
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: blind spot in our idea of racism, and it's for
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Italians because it's like somehow okay to go like, hey,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: it's a mea Mario, like a pizza pie or whatever,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: that's okay, but any other you know, doing an Asian
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: voice or something or that is not cool. And he
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: made it. I don't know. I thought it was a
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  Speaker 2: really good point.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: That is a good point. I wonder if it holds
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: the same in other countries where English is the primary language. Like,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: do people in the UK if you're listening to the UK,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: do you folks do the Italian voice? Is it just
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: an American thing? Are we the jerks?
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I think we might be.
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  Speaker 1: We might be, but we're not going to be as
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  Speaker 1: big of jerks as the popes of the past have been.
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  Speaker 2: Oh man, the past popes, my friend. So here's the thing.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: There was a time when what we know is the
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Holy Roman Empire was fresh and young and the new thing, right,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And this was in the eighth and ninth centuries. And
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: a really great article from all that is Interesting dot
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  Speaker 2: Com called Better Noah Pope Stephen the sixth the Grave
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  Speaker 2: Robber outlines quite beautifully the life and times of this
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  Speaker 2: papal jerk.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this period of time, it's just so rife
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  Speaker 1: with corruption. That's that's the best way to say it.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: And there's a term that you and I learned that
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: later historians would use to to describe this period between
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: like eighth and ninth century AD, Holy Roman Empire, right, Yeah,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: it was the pornocracy, right, pornocracy. Yeah, So you know,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: google that if you wish, But yeah, we can't guarantee
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that it won't get you in trouble on your work computer.
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  Speaker 2: But we're not talking about Stephen the sixth right away,
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  Speaker 2: not just yet. No, we're talking about another pope named Formosis,
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  Speaker 2: which is a great pope name.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's a It sounds like a sith
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: lord's name in Star Wars and be like Darth Formosis.
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  Speaker 1: So Formoses name aside, he had quite a history with
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  Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. Eventually he becomes pope, but before he
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: becomes pope, we have to talk about what happened when
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: he was a cardinal bishop, right, because he had sown
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the seeds of his later problems in his time as
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  Speaker 1: a cardinal bishop.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he was also a very very successful missionary,
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  Speaker 2: and those Bulgars that you mentioned earlier, he was converting
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: them to Catholicism left and right. And he was actually
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: accused by the sitting pope at the time, who was
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: a guy named Pope John the eighth, of breaking a
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: law of the Roman Catholic Church that prevented anyone from
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: being a bishop in more than one place. And because
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: of his missionary work that had sort of could have
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  Speaker 2: been perceived as having happened, and so he actually was excommunicated.
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  Speaker 1: He was he was excommunicated by John the eighth because
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: the room was that he was a bishop of Porto
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: in eight sixty four, but then also a bishop in
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Bulgaria a little bit later on. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing was the reason that that law
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: had been passed, and I think it was a pretty
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: new law, was because we talked about that those fractured
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: little fiefdoms throughout Europe, those were a problem because there
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: was division within the church. There was division culturally and ideologically,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: and the Roman Calataris did not want to feed into
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: that anymore by having any one man in the church
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  Speaker 2: have too much power over too many areas, because that
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: could cause a problem.
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  Speaker 1: No one man should have all that power. Casey, can
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: we cut to that clip real quick? No one, I
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  Speaker 1: think it's appropriate. We don't know whether Foremosis would have
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: dugged that song, but maybe he would. We don't know
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  Speaker 1: much about the guy's musical taste. So he ultimately is,
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  Speaker 1: as you said, Noel excommunicated because he had wronged John
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the a And on April nineteenth of eight seventy five,
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  Speaker 1: Pope John the eighth called a synod a synod and
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  Speaker 1: requested that all these other papal officials returned to Rome.
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  Speaker 1: It's just a fancy word for this meeting of the clergy. Yeah,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: it's like like a brain trust, like some sort of
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  Speaker 1: like think tank. Yeah yeah, and there can be different
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  Speaker 1: versions of it. But remember that word because it becomes
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  Speaker 1: very important later. So formosis still in France, says ah,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go to that. So since he
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  Speaker 1: doesn't comply, he's removed from the ranks of the clergy.
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  Speaker 1: He's excommunicated. And the reason given is that he is
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  Speaker 1: excommunicated because he deserted his diocese without the permission of
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  Speaker 1: the pope and that double bishopping, double dipping bishop. I
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: like that double dipping bishop.
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  Speaker 2: And he also openly aspired for the papacy whatever that means,
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  Speaker 2: like he campaigned for it or what. I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: It seems like he was railroaded quite a bit by
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  Speaker 2: dudes that did not like the fact that he was
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  Speaker 2: kind of better than them. I don't know in terms
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  Speaker 2: of just like his goodness, because I'm not reading a
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  Speaker 2: whole lot of corruption, actual corruption on his side. On
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  Speaker 2: his side, it seems like it's most of the other
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  Speaker 2: the other folks just like a lot of politicking very much.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So I sort of like that that Second Star Wars prequel.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: The Second Star Double Dip and Bishop. So this is
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  Speaker 1: announced in eight seventy two. In July, it's formally announced
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  Speaker 1: that Formosis and several other people are excommunicated, But a
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  Speaker 1: few years later, in eight seventy eight, the sentence of
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: excommunication was withdrawn after Formosis promised to never again return
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  Speaker 1: to Rome, nor to exercise his priestly functions ever for
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  Speaker 1: the rest of his life.
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  Speaker 2: He agreed, but it didn't. Isn't this when John the
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  Speaker 2: Eighth got murdered?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, John the eighth assassinated, right, But how did it?
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  Speaker 1: How did it happen? Was it one of those shady
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: like may have been an accident or was it pretty
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  Speaker 1: clearly a murder?
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  Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I don't. I do not think he was.
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  Speaker 2: He was beloved by the people because he was first
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: poisoned and then someone bashed his head in with the
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: hammer because the poison was taking too long. So then
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: you know, then we end up in this kind of
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  Speaker 2: like really rough and tumble period where there's like several
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: popes in between him, and ultimately when our guy Formosis
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  Speaker 2: becomes the pope. So immediately after this we have a
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: quick turnaround of popes who got Marinus the first and
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  Speaker 2: then is quickly followed by a guy named Saint Adrian
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  Speaker 2: the third, and he kind of thinks better of Foremostis
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: and overturns all of those penalties that he had to
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: he had to suffer, right, so he's now allowed. Not
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: only is he allowed to come back to Rome and
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: keep practicing what he's doing, he actually becomes the pope,
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  Speaker 2: the next pope and eight ninety one.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, he has unanimously elected the pope on October sixth,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: eight ninety one, and this ushers in a weird period
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: for the pope. So votes for the pope ben we
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: do not unless we become cardinals in the church.
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  Speaker 2: So if Formosis was so unpopular at the point where
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  Speaker 2: he got excommunicated and banned for life, but then was
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: unanimously elected pope, it really just goes to show there
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: were some serious like factions. I mean, this whole idea
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  Speaker 2: of the splintered loyalties is on full display here. And
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  Speaker 2: I guess after our guy John the eighth got you know,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: club to death, the tide turned in his favor and
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: he served as pope for I think a good five years,
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  Speaker 2: and in that five years he accomplished some pretty cool stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe we mentioned earlier. He was pope from
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  Speaker 1: October sixth, eight ninety one until his death in eight
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  Speaker 1: ninety six. And he didn't get a particularly great situation,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean when he became pope. And obviously,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: as you can tell from the timeline, he did not
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: serve as pope for very long, but he did try
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: his best to navigate the chaotic geopolitical issues of the day.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: The problem is, he became engrossed in some real beefs
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: with some powerful enemies. One of the most prominent is
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: a guy named Guy the third of Spiletto, the Holy
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Roman Emperor, and started as sort of a just like
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a somewhat distant struggle for control, but then it was
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: building quickly into open warfare.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. And this guy, this guy, Guy
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: of Suspilato, was on the other end of that open warfare,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: and Formostus actually ended up having to a mass An
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: army to go to war with him. And when he
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: did this, as he was doing this, rather he died,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: he got paralyzed, was quote struck by paralysis acrony of
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: this article in all that is interesting dot com. And
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: he passed away, and so guys, problems were resolved, and
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the problems were We talked about earlier how there was
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of vying for control and cash flow from
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: these Holy Roman brothels, and that was kind of at
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  Speaker 2: the center of this. See there's the thing I said
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that foremosts didn't really seem to have too much dirt
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: on him, but it did seem like he was still
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: kind of running the numbers and playing the game in
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: terms of like where this money went. But I think
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: he just didn't give the right bishops the cash, and
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: he became sort of persona on grata for the ones
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: that were amassed behind guy.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And so Foremoses dies. The next pope is a guy
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: named Pope Bona Face the sixth, and this pope is
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: a native of Rome, and he is pope in April
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: of eight ninety six. He was mainly elected because there
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: were a ton of riots right after the death of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Pope Formosis, and after a pontificate of fifteen days, he
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: either died of the gout or he was forcibly ejected
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: to make way for a character named Stephen the Sixth,
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  Speaker 1: who he mentioned at the beginning. Thanks for sticking around, folks.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: We got there. We did get there. A lot of
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: ground to cover between there and here.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Stephen the sixth is sort of our Papal
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Looney tune in today's episode. He had a lot of
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: problems with Formosas in the first place, because he did
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: not like the way he interpreted doctrine, that idea of
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the way either the Godhead and all of that. Ben,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: can you give us a little more on that.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like we said earlier, there's a difference here
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: in the nature of the Holy Spirit, how it relates
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: to the Trinity, how it relates to the Godhead, and
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: without getting too far in the weeds here, it sounds
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: very technical, but it's an argument that they took very
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: very very very seriously. Gravely seriously, one might say. But
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the truth is that we don't know too much about
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Stephen's early life. We don't know what his name originally was,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: We don't know what yu was born, but we we
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: do know a little bit about his life. It seems
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: that he was the son of a priest. When he
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: you know, when he attained adulthood, he went into the church,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: but it was actually Formoses who made him a bishop,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and he was made a bishop under pressure from Guy
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: three of Spiletto.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Ah. Yes, So here's how it goes. Stephen the sixth
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: becomes the pope and for whatever reason, like I don't
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: even understand what the point of this is. I mean,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's the whole seed of ridiculousness in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: story is he was so angry with Foremosis, who, as
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: we've mentioned, has died at this point, that he decided
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: it would be a good idea to hold another one
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: of those synods. Right synod you say, synod synon doesn't matter.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Synod sounds very sci fi, So I'm gonna say like that.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: So he calls one of those sort of like a
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: king's moot in RPG games, and he has the corpse
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: of said pope dug up and dressed up in the
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: papal robes and sat in the papal throne and tried
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: for all of those things that he got reversed, remember
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: the excommunication and the whole like being a bishop in
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: two places and all that. Stephen did not forget those things.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And he's here's the thing, you can look at it
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: one of two ways. That he was legitimately conscientiously outraged
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: about these things, and then that he would not let
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: those heresies stand, or he trying to get a little
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: juice from all of those political factions that were anti Formosis,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: if we know there were many, and there's a couple
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: more reasons I want to point out before we get
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: into the next bit of the story as to why
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: that was.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: If you're listening to this by a computer or a desktop,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: or you're on your phone, some we're safe, go ahead
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and pull up this fantastic painting by Jean Paul Lawrence
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: called Pope Formosis and Stephen the Seventh. That's the same
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: guy as Stephen the sixth is a whole different thing,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: but that's the original title of the painting. So, Noel,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: what are those other reasons?
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Well, in addition to the whole brothel debacle and you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: a bacle, yeah, exactly, he also he just got embroiled
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: in a lot of geopolitical disputes that resulted in people
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: gaining and losing a lot of money. One was he
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: actually intervened in Constantinople, where a patriarch named Photius the
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: First had been ousted, and also the son of Emperor
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Basil the First, a guy named Stephen had taken his place.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: It's a different Stephen.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: He also refused to reinstate people who have been ordained
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: by the patriarch, by Photius the first.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, Ben, so I sort of glossed over.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: We both a little bit glossed over his kind of
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: disagreements with Guy the third of Spilato, who was the
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Holy Roman Emperor. That's an interesting thing about the Holy
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Roman Empire. Ride you have it. You have this Holy
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Roman Emperor and then you have the pope, and they're
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: kind of like the pope is sort of the the uh,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: the spiritual thing, and then the emperor is the political
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: head of state or whatever. But he wanted to overthrow
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Guy the third of Spilato, so he actually supported factions
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that were going against him, and he actually convinced Arnolf
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: of Corinthia to invade Rome and take con of Italy
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: from Spilato, so you know, and then Spilato was kind
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: of pals with our boy Stephen the sixth. So there
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: we go.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Does that?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Does that? Someone up in a nutshell?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I think we're getting close. I think that's that's good, just.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: In terms of why someone would be so angry with
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: this man after he was already dead, that he decided
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to dig up his rotting bones from the ground, dress
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: him up in this pageantry and shove him in a
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: chair and try him for heresy.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me paint some more of the picture here
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: about how this trial actually wins. And I hope you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: guys can hear the air quotes when I say trial.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: So there's a great article on this beliefs from National
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Geographic Vengeance at the Vatican, the Cadaver's Nod, and this
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: is seen as the lowest point in the continual chaos
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: of ninth century Italy. So there's another player that enters
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: the field here who maybe doesn't get as much mentioned
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: as they should. Guy the third we mentioned he had sons, right,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: He had a son named Lambert, and Lambert ended up
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: teaming up with the Pope Stephen to create this pr
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: farce because Lambert said, when he was talking to Stephen
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the sixth, he said, we have to condemn Formoss's actions
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: and tarnish his reputation, and it has to be in
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: public so that his followers can see it. And it
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: has to feel official. So it has to happen under
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: canon law and be held before the papal curia and
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Roman nobility. And we're gonna have Formoss himself attend. So Noel,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: as you said, they dressed him up, they exhumed him,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: they put him on trial. They even had someone who
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: was supposed to speak for you, like as a lawyer. Yeah,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: against those accusations. However, the poor Sap didn't have much
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: luck because Pope Stephen was just continually screaming at this corpse.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: It's a very undignified way for a pope to act,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: at least I would think so. In the modern day.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Now it's super just macabre too. And of course, you know,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: like you had a chance, poor Sap. He was found
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: guilty and they punished him with something called damnascio memorii,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: which means condemnation of memory in Latin, and it basically
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: means that his tenure as pope was like men in
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: black mind erased from history books. Well, only it doesn't
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: seem to have taken because we're talking about.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: It right, Erased from history. Thou shalt nut speak his name,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And there are all these different desecrations they did to
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: his body too. They tore his papal vestments off, they
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: cut off the three fingers on his hand that he
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: used to concentrate.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: You know, the ones.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they threw his body in a river, and
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: later I think a monk or a fisherman found it.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I think the river thing even came a little later.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: They originally just like buried him in the ground somewhere
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: like like an unmarked grave, and then Pope Jonathan the
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: sixth thought better of it and was like, you know what,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that's too good for that. So and so let's dig
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: him up and just toss him in the in the
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: in the drink.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because our sources show
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: us that first, yeah, he was dressed in common peon clothed,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and then buried in an unmarked grave, a pauper's grave.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: And then the stories that they decided that wasn't good enough, right,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: so they dug him up again and threw him in
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the river. However, it seems like that part the story
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: about a monk or a fisherman pulling the pope from
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: the river might be a myth. But we do know
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: the story of the body doesn't stop there. This is
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: seen as an act of very bad taste to almost
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: everybody involved. You know, it's kind of a wake up
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: call where they're thinking, we're getting ridiculous. I know, we
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: want kill each other, but this is this is a
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: little too far.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: It's a bit much.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And so Stephen six ends up imprisoned a few months afterwards,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and he is strangled to death in jail. And two
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: years after that, another pope reinstates Pope Formosis and bans
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: any further trial for dead popes. So it came to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: pass that Pope Formosis is buried in eighteen ninety seven
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: with full Christian honors, which seems like a heck of
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: a ride.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of not. I mean, I guess it's
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: a pretty good consolation prize. But guy really went through
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: the ringer.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I just have this vision in my head that I
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: can't I can't erase the memory. Oddly enough, or this
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: this fanciful notion of people having to sit and watch
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: this because they had they had to sit and observe
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: it trial.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: And do you think they were into it or do
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: you think they are like, ye, I don't know about this,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, surely it's like a warning to some of
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Moses's followers.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess because again, like he definitely had some
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: and you know, there's nothing that I was able to
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: find about them, like doing some sort of mass execution
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: of anyone that was in his camp or whatever. So
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: maybe this was their way of, like, you know, let
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: this be a warning to you for emotions.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what, man, We're We're not perfect,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: no one is. But I can say that we have
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: never put a corpse on trial, you know what I mean?
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: So go us.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'll tell you, Ben, the fact that
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: we're not perfect is what makes the show work.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Let's hope. So, and we hope you enjoyed hearing this story.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: We've talked about it off air, folks. We could probably
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: do an entire podcast on popes a popecast, but that's
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that's a different show, right. Also, we're trademarking popecast. If
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that's not already a thing, we just called it. We
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: called dips. Does that count sure? If we called DIBs
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: on air.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: DIBs is a thing, that's a thing, that's those rules
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: surrounding it. Yeah, it's part of the Geneva convention. Yeah,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: there we go.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: So dibbs on popecasts. But write to us and let
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: us know what strange stories you learned about when you've
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: read up on papal history, because we assure you there
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: are multitudes of strange stories about popes. You can find
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We highly recommend our community
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: page Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet and speak with
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: some of your fellow listeners.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: There is a popecast by the way. Damn it very
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: disappointing installment of Casey on the case.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: It was too you know what. Popecast was too good
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: to not be a thing. Of course, it was like
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a podcast chorus. We flew too close to the sun.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: And if you want to fly too close to the
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: podcast sun too. You don't want to do any of
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: that social media stuff, you can write us an email
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: at Ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com, but most importantly, please
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: join us for our next episode where we talk about
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: spooky Filipino vampire alien monster creatures that haunt the Hills.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I am so excited. I'm so excited. Thank you to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: super producer Casey Pegrim. Thanks to our research associate for
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: this episode, Eve's Jeffcoat. Thanks to Alex Williams who can
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: posed this track, and Hey, Noil, thanks to you.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: He're looking at you. Ben. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.