Latest / Cultivator Podcast / Episode 6 - Trio Talks - Brave Cities Recap
Transcript
- Justin Stice: I mean you were invited. Don't act like you didn't show up. Dude, I I had I was I told Blanton I said, Blanton, you have not lived until you've seen Scott and a speedo in the swimming pool. And he was so excited. He cried himself to sleep that night. I just want you to know that. That's on you. I sent you a picture. You didn't send me a picture. You did send me a picture. I'm not in that group. Hey, welcome to the Cultivator Podcast. I'm here with the doctors, which are not doctors, but we like to think of ourselves a doctor. False advertisement. It's false. ⁓ but man, we are so thankful that you guys would tune in, hang out, and ⁓ and listen and watch with us. ⁓ so this is gonna be a follow-up ⁓ conversation from last week's podcast that we launched. So last week we put out the conversation that we had with Hugh Halter and Taylor McCall and Lance Ford. ⁓ they were here last year and man they were talking about brave cities, kind of what that kingdom ecosystem looks like. And with that we got a a chance to sit down and have a conversation with them. And so we thought today would be just a great time to go back and kind of think and pull out what are the things that stood out to us and have some conversations. 'Cause man, that we we've all gone back and listened to that conversation and there's just so much good stuff in there. And so I don't want us to bypass and just kinda jump into this next thing without kind of sitting and asking, man, what are the things that really ⁓ stood out to us from those conversations? So you guys, I would love to hear, ⁓ and I'll throw in some stuff too, but I would love to hear what are the things from that conversation that we had with Hugh and Taylor and Lance. And and I I kinda alluded to this. These dudes are kind of like legends within kind of the the missional church movement kind of leadership. Like these guys are just some of our heroes. We're so thankful for their friendship ⁓ with us. Yeah. ⁓ but man, I would just love to hear what you guys are kind of thinking of what's stirred in you since going back and listening. ⁓ one of the things that really stirred in me, and you just you just mentioned it, so I think it's a good segue, is just the relationship with them. ⁓ I mean I've known Hugh for a long time from the fringes and just have always been impressed by him. ⁓ he does not fit well into buckets. Like ⁓ he is kind of clergy, but he's not. He's always been a ⁓ you know, a house builder or a h work with your hands kind of guy. And if you follow him on social media, he's always posting something where he's doing something, a drywall job or whatever. and his book, Tangible Kingdom, was so instrumental in my kind of missional move because it's just it looked at things differently. And so read that and went to a a a missio conference that he put on in Austin several years ago and just always been impressed 'cause of his story, because of his willingness to just kind of jump in and live this out. ⁓ you know, one of the stories that's not told much about him is they ha he and his wife had a son that had all kinds of needs. And so I really think that from the two thousands, two thousands ten two thousand tens, I don't think they slept like hardly at all because they're always afraid that, you know, I think he had seizures and so something was gonna go wrong with that. And just to do that like I d I don't get six hours sleep. My family just is like leave me alone. And so but in the midst of that to be able to build stuff. And it's not just once that he's done it. You know, he did it in in the Denver area and now he's doing it Alton. I just I am encouraged by just being around them, even if it is, you know, on a podcast ⁓ from a conversation a year ago. I just ⁓ I I I think that there is value and one of the things I think Scott wants to talk about in discipleship is that, but I think there's value in being around people that you admire, that you look up to, that you wanna kinda do stuff that they're doing. Well, and the same is with with Lance. Lance is probably kind of my first person I got to really know and connect with in the missional church movement. And it was I read his book, Unleader, and it just like totally messed with me in great ways. And I was going to Kansas City and it's when he was living up there and I just like randomly I don't know how I got His contact information. I think I maybe email him text or whatever. I was Hey man, I read your book. It's amazing. I'm gonna be there. Would you get one of coffee? And he's Yeah, dude. And ever since then, for the last 10, 12 years, we're like hanging out, texting, hanging out. And so Lance has just always been a good voice to me to have to just talk about things. ⁓ and so he's just been so grateful for him and his just a willingness to to give relationship. Yeah. ⁓ and then he's always pointing, he's Hey man, you should go talk to them. Or and honestly. I got to know about Taylor whenever he was in Birmingham because of Lance. And Lance was like, Hey, you should go check out them. And then Lance was like, Hey, you should go connect with the guys at Forge, with Terry and and with those guys. And Terry and Forge have been a huge part of our our relationship as well. And so just it's just for me that mutuality of relationship and their willingness to just be there and engage has been really good. But Yeah. Well that well, I'm sorta second generation. You guys introduced me to them and I really know them through their books, not really personally. Yeah. I have great respect for them. And I I would say that ⁓ I've read two books that Lance has written and I really I mean they just meant so much to me. I can't recall the name of them, but one was about leadership and how he described it it's really upside down. And leader that's a leader. Yeah. Yeah yeah there it is. Yeah yeah. Yeah. ⁓ that was so good. I used it some in discussing leadership with interns at the Wesley Foundation. So and then Brave Cities turned on all kinds of lights for me. Yeah. And that that book was very important in my under growth and understanding 'cause I mean I I'm old school. I mean, I'm just literally old school. And what that often means is I have to unlearn before I learn. And ⁓ I yeah, those those three men are they're legends, and the reason they're legends is because they have lots of scars. Dang. And you want to follow people who have scars. Yeah, and you bring up a good point because I think that sometimes it feels like, and this might not be true, but it feels like Justin, you and I are bringing people into the e our ecosystem and saying, Hey, hang out or learn from these people, but they don't know them. Yeah. But the reality is you can pick up Brave Cities and read it. And you can pick up Tangible Kingdom, even though it's twenty years and read it. You can pick up Unleader and Lance's got a lot of other books and you can get a sense for their heart. Like you don't have to hang out with them. But Once you've read their stuff, you'll want to hang out with them. Well, and they're even better in person. That's they are even better in person. But there is a play like it's not like you have to go on social media and say, Hey Hugh, my friend Justin says said we should be friends, let's be friends. Like there's a lot of good content in their books that you can just read and and get to know them through that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so what I loved is they were here talking about Brave Cities and kind of us as Kingdom Co-op and the kind of eco ecosystem that kind of has emerged and developed here, which is amazing and beautiful, and every day we're like Thank you, Lore, but also please help, Lord. What are we doing? ⁓ and so it was so good to have them here in that conversation. And and the how kind of thinking back to that interview and that time with him was like, hey, what does it look like to be a kingdom cultivator? And that was a question of kind of I threw out there is like, you guys have been living this. What does it look like to be a kingdom cultivator? And that just kind of started this in the conversation. And for me, and I'll start that on the is man, the first thing that Lance said is he said that idea of the kingdom. He's like It it it's we are invited to become citizens of a kingdom. And that right there is is everything. It's it's I it's more than hey, I go to church and I and I and I said this prayer when I was on this. It was like, no, no, no, we actually have this whole citizenship into this whole new reality. And man, that's what I think a lot of times we forget is that we have been invited to be citizens and have a new identity that's established and rooted in the kingdom. Well, and you know, one of the things he said in that as well is that like the whole economy is different. You know, and you th I mean you think about it in worldly terms and we're not gonna get political, but like immigration is a big issue. And I think that there's a there's a portion of the country that is like, we're okay with immigration as long as they kinda come and follow our rules and engage in our economy. What we are not okay with is when they come and try to bring their own stuff here. And I think that too often the followers of Jesus try to bring the world economy into the kingdom economy. Yeah. And it just doesn't operate the same. I mean, and I think that Hugh is a great example of that. Man, if you if you were to look at how he survived over the years, it does not make sense. Yeah. I mean, because he rarely draws a paycheck from the church work that he does. Yeah. But he's always just been able to sustain, whether it's through putting a roof on or, you know, painting something or whatever. ⁓ and And that's a hard I mean, that's a hard lesson because we like our security and we like to, you know, make our our bulletin posts of how much was brought in last Sunday and what our budget is and how we're meeting it. And I mean they're just sometimes I mean we've been through this. Sometimes when we're like, Okay, here's the bills and here's the checkbook for Kingdom Co op and they don't match up, not in a good way either. Yeah. ⁓ and and just to be able to kind of have that faith, ⁓ I mean I think that that's an important lesson. That's an important thing to hear from multiple people because that's a hard lesson to learn. I think that idea of the kingdom economy, I think within that kingdom economy, ⁓ there there was something and you alluded to Scott earlier, was there was that there's a little nuance of we actually aren't building the kingdom. And I think so often for so long we that was a term that we I use, we use and and y and it you have to kind of shift that a little bit and say, no, no, actually I I'm not building anything. It it is something that God has established, set, built. ⁓ but I don't know, I would love to hear your thoughts on that that kind of nuanced thing that that stood out to me. Yeah. ⁓ I love in that podcast w you know, one of the first things he said w in that idea of that we don't build the kingdom, it's already here. One of the things he said is if you think you're building the kingdom, you kinda get big about yourself. And and you know, I man, did that ring true? I mean I Personally and also what I've observed a lot of times is that ⁓ it's about ⁓ I I'll hear pastors say, My church and I wanna say, Who's whose church? And along those lines, it's you know, just to kind of bring the the Lance, I don't know, if you follow Lance on social media, you see c that he's kinda angry. But like one of the things that I think well, he's got that prophetic in him and so he gets angry about the things that I think make Jesus mad. ⁓ but one of the things that he fights out about all the time is that notion of a senior pastor. Like he is like, you know, the bab the the Southern Baptists are fighting over what role women can or can't play. And he's like, the whole notion of a senior pastor is a bastardization of scripture 'cause we have a good shepherd. Like that's what it is, a senior pastor in Jesus. And I think we get caught up in what my church is doing and Jesus is like, No, no, I own this. This is my kingdom, my church. Yeah. Well, ⁓ the ⁓ you know If if I was ⁓ working ⁓ an eight to five job every day and you know I had bills to pay, all of this is, you know, all of us, but ⁓ you know, when Hugh said, you know, the you don't build it, you just you think about what is God up to around me and I just join in because he's all the kingdom's already here. He he's already at work ⁓ doing his kingdom right here around us. Just locate what he's doing and then join in. That okay. Everyone can do you don't have to go to seminary to do that. You don't have to have a certain title to do that. Everybody can do that. And now the key is is tuning in, you know, being awakening ⁓ awakening yourself to what's going on around you with the Lord's busy doing. ⁓ and hearing an invitation to join in. ⁓ he Hugh called it ⁓ I'm I don't mean f ⁓ finding bread along the way. Mm-hmm. Something like that. And I did I loved that image. And I I think with that, and this goes into one of the first things that Taylor said was we have to get rid of this idea between sacred and secular. Yes. Because I think if we're looking for bread along the way, we're looking for this very sacred, holy, God all these things. And I feel like sometimes it is just a very real thing in front of us, a real need, a real whatever else. That that could be some of the bread that God's saying, here's some here's here's the first piece of bread on the trail. And it could look in if you're looking in this lens, it could look very unsacred. But I feel like we have that's one of the first things I feel like we have to get rid of is this this difference between sacred and secular. ⁓ because I I feel like I I don't I don't know if maybe y'all can push back. I I don't know if there there in the new covenant with Jesus we can kind of begin to make those distinctions. I think he makes almost all things sacred. If we whatever else, but like I feel like a lot of times we we try to parcel things out that aren't meant to be parceled out. Well, and ⁓ well, so let's find hope in the fact that this is not a new problem, right? I mean, you know, a lot of your Justin, a lot of your whole ⁓ wholeness stuff was taken out of Colossians and kind of the what Paul puts there. And like Colossians two and three just talk about there aren't new moon festivals, there aren't Sat like every day is the same, every day is holy. And and w so this is not a new problem. Like this is not something that we turn to the 21st century and we're like, ⁓ this is how we're gonna do it. ⁓ I I I love the conversation about discipleship where Taylor talked about being discipled by his girls. And I I think that some of the inner workings of church try to try to characterize and categorize everything and the reality is the sacredness of a common meal with your kids of just having and it doesn't even have to be, hey, let's open to Colossians and read it, but like something happens with Blanton and we have a conversation about it at the table. That is discipleship. That is holy. That is sacred. Yeah. Even though we're just, you know, throwing down some chicken tacos, it's not anything special, but it makes it still sacred. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. I'd love it. Just keep going. Yeah, I love it. I I think also just kind of as we're thinking and kind of kind of all over the place with this and I love it. But what else are the things that kind of stood out to you ⁓ in that conversation? Well I loved how you know like going back to the question ⁓ you know what is a kingdom cultivator and how do you sustain it? And I loved how you c connected to be a kingdom cultivator, you need to become clearer and clearer about who you are. You need to become you you the this the clarity of your identity, the who God says you are. needs to grow and grow and grow. And then the more th that happens, the better you are at being a kingdom cultivator. I loved that. And I thought and I wanted to highlight it. I didn't know exactly how, I guess right now I am, but but and then when you they talked about discipleship, you brought in the idea of business, how the discipleship can happen in business. And and you used this word that which I just think was very, very important is the mutuality that It is a it's not something I'm doing to someone or God's using me to do to someone. It's something He's doing to the both of us. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? And I loved that image. Yeah. I think and I would and like now I want to highlight that. when ever you decide or you find yourself discipling someone Please be aware that it's a two way street. It's not a one way street. Yeah, I loved that. Yeah. A lot of that comes from ⁓ Jesse Khrushchev, who's another w one of the people that we you know been inspired by. She just talks about like she does a lot of outdoors type stuff. And man, when you're outdoors hiking with somebody, it's not just I'm showing you, like you gotta watch out for me and we watch out for each other. Yeah. I think that's a the the notion of life on life discipleship, not you know, I mean I love that they talk in there where where Hugh says something about how many hours of Bible study have we done and people aren't being transformed. Yeah. ⁓ it is that kind of just life on life. And I think there's something like we I mean, for us, big time is like, man, discipleship is more than just going and meeting with somebody for an hour once a week and memorizing like memorizing scripture and talking about the things you're struggling with, those are all great. But like if that's what you've reduced discipleship to, like you've missed it. You you've missed you've missed that the element of No, does it look like when somebody that's experiencing homelessness walks into your business and you have to like make some hard decisions in that moment? Like that for me is like some real discipleship. Absolutely. ⁓ or hey, what it's like when you're around when my girls come in and they're losing their mind about something and I'm having to have a convers like there so that you don't experience that once a week meeting at a coffee shop. Like you experience what life looks like and I'm trying to follow Jesus in the mist. And then there's gonna be times where I'm looking at you like that mutuality and like seeing it. And so I think we have reduced discipleship even so much too. It has to be this this program, this thing, this whatever else. And I think it it really is it is a life on life of us following Jesus together. And there's gonna be times and seasons where I'm in somebody's life that I have maybe a little bit further along in certain areas, but then also If I'm so blinded and I think I got my crap together that I'm not aware that no, Jesus is working in their life too. Yeah. And what can they be teaching me as well? Yeah, one of the things that those guys model ⁓ there was but it wasn't talked about is is that this is not what what we're talking about cultivating being a kingdom cultivator is is is messy. It's just messy. Yeah. And but here's what I here's the struggle. Is that I think by and large the church culture, at least in America, has bought into efficiency. And so, you know, it is a one it's a once a week meeting that outlasts an hour and there's a particular things that we cover and that's it. That's all it is, because we're looking for efficiency. ⁓ we we resist and refuse and reject messy. But the real thing is messy. Yeah. It is. And I think honestly for us and kind of us living this thing out in Lubbock in West Texas, man, this whole thing is is is messy. It it it is not very cookie cutter. It's not like we don't have a weekly worship service that you come to. We don't have this. And so for a lot of people that have come around, ⁓ it's been hard. It's hard because we aren't ⁓ efficient. We aren't whatever, but I can look around and I can I can see an amazing fruit of what the Lord's doing. And even but Dave and I talked about this this last week is It's even hard for us because we all of our metrics, all of our learning, all of our understanding is still based in this modeled understanding of what church is or should be and what discipleship is and should be. And which is a corporate model. And corp anything corporate is built on efficiency. One of the conversations in there that just hit me and I I I hope it hit you, Justin, because I know that our wire I love the interaction between You know, Taylor saying it's a four year process and Hugh thinking it's a twenty year process. I felt like Justin always thinks it's a three month process when it's probably a a three year process. But ⁓ you know, one of the things that I think is hard about just life in general, but ministry especially, ⁓ is where they're talking about where Jesus says to the broader disciples, you know, gives them the freedom to go. You know, this is hard, you know. And then he says in in which I think is really one of the most vulnerable. conversations Jesus has in the scriptures. Will you also leave when he says that to the 12? And they say, you know, where are we going to go? You have the words of life. And and Taylor landed on that to say, like, th this is hard and we want to give up a lot. But what where else where else are we going to go? You know, I mean, I spent I spent a Sunday this past week at a traditional Methodist church in West Texas preaching and it was great. But it's not, I don't know. It it yeah, not not that Jesus wasn't there. I'm not saying that at all, but like there there is something about kingdom and about this. Where else are we gonna go? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And is I mean I I have in I don't know if maybe my friends actually watch this or do listen to this, but I mean I have a lot of friends in town that have that are part on staff of great churches and big churches and all this and those are great, man. They're we we've moved past any sense of being against or bashing ⁓ the prevailing model of church. Like that It it is what it is and it does what it does, but there is something stirring in us that's longing for something I I don't I'll say more different because I mean I spent over twenty years in the prevailing model. And I mean I worked in mega churches, small churches, all all the things and they're all and there's beautiful, wonderful, great things happening. And I'm never going to say there's not because there is. But I do see it feel and sense and and this is why I'm just gonna be honest, I want a lot of the people in our ecosystem to watch this because there is something God's doing around the country and I would say even around the world. That is revolving around these ideas of ecosystems. Right? That it's it's involving businesses, it's involving groups meeting homes. It's in group it's involving specific causes, right? And there's this connection or network. And and we're not the only ones in Lubbock that are living this out and figuring this out. There's there's places so for me in this conversation with them, a lot of it was letting people know that like, hey, this wasn't just an idea that Scott, Justin, and Dave came up with like let's try this. Now, look, this is something that I see and sense and feel like God is stirring and doing something around the country that looks a little bit different. Not well it looks a lot different than what a lot of people have been used to. So I guess on a little tangent, I got No, no, and it I think that's valuable. So I mean, let's just let's go tangent. so I'm I I've already watched the movie because I got stuck in the book, but I'm reading the book Project Hail Mary. Right. And the basic thing is there's this thing that's going on with the sun, that these little things are eating the sun and so our temperature is gonna lower. And they talk about what's gonna happen is that there are going to be an creatures in the seas that die, and then that's gonna ultimately lead to us dying. And ⁓ I think with ecosystems, that's a good image because there's so many things going on that we don't know about. I mean, it it is a very Jesus' examples are very earthy. Right. I mean, a sower went out to sow and he talks about soils. Well, that's earthy. ⁓ we live in West Texas. It's an earthy world. I mean, I'm out in far west Texas and we're having conversations about rain and having conversations about, you know, cattle disease. I'm like all of this stuff that's just very earthy. And we don't see all the stuff that's going on. I think one of the things that that we struggle with in our conversations is seeing the breadth of the ecosystem. Like it's not just about a Sunday celebration, it's not just about a Wednesday night at your house, it's not about a Sabbath Saturday, it's not about a discipleship formal thing. Like it's the whole ecosystem. And the stuff that happens in this building affects that ecosystem. The stuff that happens in the stice home affects that ecosystem. When Scott, you know, has an eye that goes haywire on him, that affects the ecosystem. Like that's just how it is. You know, when there are weather changes, we're things like that, the physical ecosystem gets affected. And I I love the image of ecosystem because it broadens out our understanding of what's going on. And I love it. And I think that conversation with those guys and those guys even being here last year helped us. And even having other people read Brave City's book helps bring some context understanding because a lot of things that we they brought language to a lot of things that we had been trying to figure out and and and do and say, but then all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ we've been trying to figure this out and do this. But then there's some language of that they've built around that. ⁓ and now we've kind of taken it in like this idea of cultivator ⁓ is is in the midst of all of this. Yeah, the the one like instructive thing that I would want to leave with a a conversation I would be having with someone around this topic would be around the word be aware. Awareness is like God is working. He's at work. Jesus, I mean, he's still at work. Jesus said his father's still working. He's right around you, right where you are. You don't have to wait for a meeting on a certain day of the week ⁓ for God to be at work. He's, you know. ⁓ so ramp up your awareness. I mean, start looking, ramp up your curiosity. What is he doing around me right now and how can I? joining in. That's probably the piece of gold that I put in my pocket from those three guys. And ⁓ this is like anyone, anyone, you don't yeah, like I said, you don't have to have a title, you don't have to have an a certain kind of education. anyone can pick that up, put it in your pocket and just start watching, waiting, being just as aware as you can in the moment. to ⁓ get a p become a part of a kingdom cultivator. I mean being one ⁓ you know anyway. You hear what I'm saying. I love that. And I think so this is something we're trying to do is in conversations to come back down to a very practical thing. Like there's hopefully there's some kind of at least some kind of boots in the ground practical thing that we can walk away each time we have a conversation. I think that right there is is kind of where I think would be a good place to say, hey, man, that would be a very practical invitation or even challenge to us this next week of Where can we start being aware of the kingdom around us? And that where is there's a breadcrumb that maybe maybe looks super whatever, but like there's something to that, maybe, maybe that's the breadcrumb that that Jesus is is putting in front of me to step towards. Yeah. What what would be some what would be some good maybe questions, prayers, slots? ⁓ here's the question I Scott asks all the time. What is Jesus doing? doing in your life right now? Like there you get a and I hate that question and I always make up an answer. No, it's fine. I I I lie to you every time. But like it's it's real easy for us to look back into the past and go, well this and this. But like that is an important question because ⁓ not not that you're s not that this is the image you're using, but I I come to the image of manna. Mana showed up today and it was different tomorrow. If you didn't get it, it wasn't there. And so what is Jesus doing saying or revealing himself today? Not yesterday, not last week, not tomorrow. It's that manna thing of just going out and looking for it every day. And I think that right there goes pushes us back to that place of intimacy, of dependency, of like, you know, this is this following Jesus is an everyday thing. I can't be looking back yesterday, I can't be looking forward. And this is I get I'm probably more focused on what's going whatever, it or both. But like, what does it look like today? I love that. Yeah. Well, I mean For me, ⁓ I've I've landed on three words that I'm trying to live every day. What does it mean to be intimate with the Father? What what am I doing? How you know, how am I turning my awareness towards being intimate with the Father? How am I learning how to be dependent? How am I growing and being dependent on the Spirit? And then how am I letting Jesus love sacrificially through me? I love that. And if ⁓ those three, those are the my hooks for the day. And I just watch for that. I watch where where where what is the Lord presenting to me as giving me a chance of intimacy, dependency, or sacrificial love? Where we're what what right this moment, where is that happening right now? And just watch for it all the time. That that to me is living in the moment with him. I th I think that right there. is like a great place just to like wrap this up. And it c coming from the conversation with those guys and then even this of man, our hope and our prayer is that this is helping be a resource for us to all continue to to be healthy and whole in Christ and making a kingdom difference where we live, work, learn and play. And I think those three hooks, those three questions will continue to drive us to living this life as a kingdom cultivator. And so thank you. ⁓ thank you guys for hanging out, listening. ⁓ man, once again, yeah, thank you. We w our hope and our prayers that this is useful. and here's the thing, we're gonna keep doing it 'cause w we freaking love it and it's awesome. ⁓ but no I I do I feel like this is great stuff. And so ⁓ man, share it with people, ⁓ check it out. But ⁓ once again thank guys for hanging out with us today.