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The Pre-Trib Rapture Debate · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Well, welcome to the podcast, everybody. I'm here in studio
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  Speaker 2: with Lee Brainer. Welcome Lee Mando.
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  Speaker 3: It's good to be here again. I always love being
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  Speaker 3: with the Prophecy Watchers crew.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we we have a lot to talk about today
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  Speaker 2: because and I'll just want to say right up front
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  Speaker 2: that the idea of the pre trib rapture, as you
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  Speaker 2: know you've spoke a lot on it, is it can.
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  Speaker 2: It brings out sometimes the best and the worst in people.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of people that in general that
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  Speaker 2: speak very aggressively at times against the pre trib rapture.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it has not been your experience.
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  Speaker 3: It has definitely been my experience. I've had a few
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  Speaker 3: of the well known names in the pre rap rapture
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  Speaker 3: camp and well known names in the post trib rapture
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  Speaker 3: camp going after me in public forums like Twitter.
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  Speaker 2: So, I mean, the So what I want to do
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  Speaker 2: today is I want to talk about some of that.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, my heart is to keep things positive. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: Those that disagree with us, I mean, I've been on
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  Speaker 2: record over and we love them. There are brothers in Christ.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to, Uh, I want to speak lovingly
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  Speaker 2: of them and and and speak in a way that's civil.
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  Speaker 2: But also what I would like to do is to
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  Speaker 2: interact with some of the things that are some of
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  Speaker 2: the criticisms that are happening against the preacher position. I
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  Speaker 2: think all of us we never want to disengage in
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  Speaker 2: in these my I give people to benefit that I
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  Speaker 2: was a pastor a long time. I give people to
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  Speaker 2: benefit the doubt. Uh. Just it's it's easier if I
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  Speaker 2: just assume that their motives are pure. And that's that's
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  Speaker 2: the way I like to live my life. It makes
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  Speaker 2: me feel better. But nevertheless, as it relates to the
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  Speaker 2: substance of the arguments, regardless of maybe how they're said,
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  Speaker 2: I think it would be helpful to begin to address
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  Speaker 2: some of those. But let's let's give a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of background. So a couple of years ago you spoke
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  Speaker 2: at the Preacher conference in Dallas, Tommy Ice, doctor Andy Woods, others,
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  Speaker 2: and at the time you had sent us an article
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  Speaker 2: on the ten sayings that were found you found an Ephraim.
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  Speaker 2: Let's give a little bit of background of what that is,
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  Speaker 2: of what that was, and how you came to speak
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  Speaker 2: at the pre Trip conference.
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  Speaker 3: Well, originally there had been one Efrium, the Syrian rapture
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  Speaker 3: passage that had been known in times past, and it
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  Speaker 3: was familiar to the pre Trip. It was in English,
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  Speaker 3: that's important, yeah, and it had been translated out of
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  Speaker 3: the out of the Latin into English and it was
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  Speaker 3: well known to people. So when I discovered Afrium the
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  Speaker 3: Syrian rapture passage, while I was doing research on the
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  Speaker 3: Greek word Apastacia for my book on second Thessalonians two three,
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  Speaker 3: I came across a rapture passage in Afrium the Syrian
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  Speaker 3: that was unknown, at least I couldn't. I didn't recollect it.
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  Speaker 2: I hadn't seen it any in your in the original
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  Speaker 2: Greek here right.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, where it's un translated works in Danbreek. There's over
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  Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty works in Ephriem that either don't
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  Speaker 3: have a published English translation, or there's a translation that's
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  Speaker 3: buried away that someone did for a dissertation, or something
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  Speaker 3: that's hard to reach. There's maybe only a dozen of
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  Speaker 3: his works that have English translations. Okay, yep, But at
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  Speaker 3: any rate, I was going through this research doing looking
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  Speaker 3: for aposta see and I found a rapture passage I
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  Speaker 3: didn't recognize, so I pulled a few books off my shelf,
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  Speaker 3: I did some research on published lists of known Patristian
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  Speaker 3: rapture passages, and I didn't find it. So I spent
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  Speaker 3: about two months going through his works finding rapture passages.
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  Speaker 3: I found over thirty rapture passages that were clear rapture passages,
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  Speaker 3: and ten of them in the context made it clear
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  Speaker 3: it was a pre trip rapture passage. So I forwarded
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  Speaker 3: that stuff to the to prophecy watchers, and it was
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  Speaker 3: forwarded to you and we just took off from there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is important because let's set the stage
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  Speaker 2: here a little bit. Is that oftentimes people who are
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  Speaker 2: critical of the dispensational perspective or the preacher position will
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  Speaker 2: make a claim or an assertion that the preacher position
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  Speaker 2: originated with Jonathan Darby right as well as Margaret McDonald
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  Speaker 2: eighteen thirties. So we recognize and we go, oh, okay, well,
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  Speaker 2: that's fair. Right, that's a fair that's at first glance,
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  Speaker 2: ye isn't that? That's a fair assertion? Hey, this was
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  Speaker 2: started there. Well, okay, so that being the case because
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  Speaker 2: of that assertion, what's our response.
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  Speaker 3: Well we should we should let their response are their
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  Speaker 3: claims stand, and say.
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  Speaker 2: Well, let's challenge it, let's challenge it.
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  Speaker 3: And so we would go to the For instance, there's
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  Speaker 3: a whole string of people from the beginning of the
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  Speaker 3: Protestant Reformation up till Jan Darby's time who didn't hold
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  Speaker 3: modern dispensationalism person but they held to a pre tribulation
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  Speaker 3: rapture in one form or another. It was. It's not unknown,
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  Speaker 3: it's not unheard of.
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  Speaker 2: So before you go on there, I mean William Watson's book,
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  Speaker 2: Dispensationalism Before Darby. That's a great book. So he he
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  Speaker 2: was a what was his he was? He was? I know,
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  Speaker 2: he's a professor at Colorado Christian University. Do you remember
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  Speaker 2: what his what his discipline was?
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  Speaker 3: No, I sure don't. I thought it was in the
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  Speaker 3: field of history.
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  Speaker 2: But that's what I think too. He was he was
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't theology, but he was history. And so he decided, hey,
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  Speaker 2: I can I know a lot of these these Puritans
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  Speaker 2: that were living in England and others, and so he
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  Speaker 2: wrote this book, Dispensation Before Darby, uh, covering from the
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  Speaker 2: time of the Reformation, primarily in England, where he addressed, Hey,
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  Speaker 2: this idea that a dispensational framework began with Darby in
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  Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties is completely false, and so he wrote
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  Speaker 2: a whole book on it, which again it had helped
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  Speaker 2: to challenge this idea, which for him, he's like, well,
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  Speaker 2: let's let's put it to scrutiny. So we have that now. Really,
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  Speaker 2: I would say post Reformation documented in the book, which
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  Speaker 2: helped to challenge that assertion. So I think one of
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  Speaker 2: the claims often that is made is that we, or
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  Speaker 2: you or others the researchers, that because we have no
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  Speaker 2: evidence for the preacher position at all in the Bible,
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to go scour the church fathers to find
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  Speaker 2: something and respond to that. Because that's really not true
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  Speaker 2: to me.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it seems it's almost hysterical to me, really,
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  Speaker 3: because I believe in the pre tribulation rapture, because the
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  Speaker 3: clear teaching in the Bible, the interplay that we see
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  Speaker 3: in Revelation chapter four through five, the promise in Revelation
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  Speaker 3: three ten to be kept from the hour of trial,
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  Speaker 3: the promise in John fourteen one through three that the
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  Speaker 3: next time the Lord Jesus interacts physically with the Church.
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  Speaker 3: They're going to glory, they're going to go to the
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  Speaker 3: New Jerusalem, going to go to the Father's House. They're
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  Speaker 3: not going to stay down here on earth. And we
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  Speaker 3: could multiply these references. So my conviction is based on
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  Speaker 3: the scriptures. And the only reason I go to the
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  Speaker 3: Church isn't because I need ammunition to prove the pre
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  Speaker 3: tribulation rapture. It's because I need ammunition to overthrow the
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  Speaker 3: objection that the pre trip rapture is not seen in
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  Speaker 3: the early Fathers, and that is the farthest from the
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  Speaker 3: truth you could be.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean because a lot of the work
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  Speaker 2: I got to speak at the pre trib conference as
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  Speaker 2: well on the ol of a discourse and Luke seventeen
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  Speaker 2: and Matthew twenty four, well, all the elem at discourse
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  Speaker 2: in the sense of looking at I rescue, yes, before
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  Speaker 2: the Day of the Lord, and it was a rescue prior.
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  Speaker 2: It was a pre Day of the Lord rescue. So
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  Speaker 2: it's in the Bible. It's there. But again, let me
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  Speaker 2: clarify for those listening that because this has come up recently,
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  Speaker 2: Joel Richardson makes a comment, I actually saw the Twitter
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  Speaker 2: thing myself and I commented there and again we love Joel,
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  Speaker 2: he's a brother in Christ. But one of the things
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  Speaker 2: that he mentioned on there was that phrase that, well,
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  Speaker 2: the reason that people are trying to find the Church
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  Speaker 2: fathers is because it's not in the Bible. And I'm like, well,
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  Speaker 2: I said, that's not the whole story, man, And I
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  Speaker 2: said very nicely, because we should be nice. But so
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  Speaker 2: just so people understand is we're not looking at pre
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  Speaker 2: Darby things to defend the view. But when people make
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  Speaker 2: an accusation that it started with Darby, you and I
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  Speaker 2: have talked abouts a lot that it's a myth. It's
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  Speaker 2: a myth that kind of refuses to die. It continues
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  Speaker 2: to continue to be shared on the Internet, social media.
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  Speaker 2: So our goal is simply to go and say, just
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  Speaker 2: like William Watson did, hey guys, that's fair. It's a
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  Speaker 2: fair statement upfront, let's challenge it, and it's false. And
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  Speaker 2: so here you are doing research. You found the ten
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  Speaker 2: refferences in Greek Ephraim, which hasn't been out there, which
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  Speaker 2: I think is valuable research. That's why Tommy Ice at
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  Speaker 2: the time, Doctor Tommy Ice, when I remember to going
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  Speaker 2: to dinner with him, and I said, did you read
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  Speaker 2: Lee's paper? And he said, you know, Mondo, I get
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  Speaker 2: a lot of these things. And at first glance I
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  Speaker 2: was like, no, wait, I don't believe a second of it.
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  Speaker 2: But he said that he's written. He wrote a scholarly
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  Speaker 2: article where he had thirty five references to pre Darby
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  Speaker 2: church Father, you know, kind of things outside of William
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  Speaker 2: Watson's work. And he said, but once I got into
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  Speaker 2: Lee's work, he said, it's ten more at least that
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  Speaker 2: I can add to my thirty five. He goes, but
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  Speaker 2: I realized that the work being done by Lee, in
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  Speaker 2: these untranslated works, they're just there. I mean again, thousands
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  Speaker 2: and thousands of pages. He said. I was so compelled
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  Speaker 2: that I gave up my spot, Yeah, my own spot
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  Speaker 2: speaking at the pre TRIB conference to fast track him in,
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  Speaker 2: to let people know not only of the work that
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  Speaker 2: you're doing, but also the magnitude of what you found there.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And the work has continued. We've discovered another nine
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  Speaker 3: pre trip passages and Eusebius. As far as I know,
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  Speaker 3: no one knew that Eusebius was pre trip because is
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  Speaker 3: few works translated into English don't make it clear.
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  Speaker 2: So who do we have. Let's talk about this assertion
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  Speaker 2: is that Nope, this was never in the Church Fathers.
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  Speaker 2: So let's step back for a moment, because we believe
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  Speaker 2: it's in the scripture. We believe again all the you know,
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  Speaker 2: Luke seventeen, John fourteen, you referenced all of them. But
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  Speaker 2: let's also let's also set the stage a little bit
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  Speaker 2: for the history of the Church Fathers. We recognize that
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  Speaker 2: we now we're walking on the shoulders of two thousand
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  Speaker 2: years of church history and doctrine and formulation and other things,
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  Speaker 2: and the analysis of scripture. I don't expect a first
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  Speaker 2: or second century theologian to have full developed theologies like
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  Speaker 2: we do systematic theologies like I mean, you get books,
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  Speaker 2: they're volumes, right, volumes you can get of systematic theology.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't have that. They were new, they didn't have
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  Speaker 2: the other giants. They only had one hundred years of
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  Speaker 2: maybe some people studying it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly right. For instance, we're looking at iron
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  Speaker 3: As here today and we're working our way there. But
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  Speaker 3: in iron Aus's day, which is in the second century
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  Speaker 3: early they had not yet worked through the entire trinitarian controversy.
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  Speaker 3: They hadn't worked through a lot of the controversies on
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  Speaker 3: very fundamental doctrines of the faith, so they hadn't worked
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  Speaker 3: through the whole eschatology dispute yet either.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, that's I'm glad you bring up
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  Speaker 2: the Trinity, because there's a lot of people that are
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  Speaker 2: critical of that. But the fact of the matter, it
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  Speaker 2: wasn't that the fourth century Church, you know, at the
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  Speaker 2: Council and I see, I just decided to create the Trinity.
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  Speaker 2: But what they're doing is they're looking at the Bible,
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  Speaker 2: where you know, in the name of the Father Son
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  Speaker 2: and the Holy Spirit, you're like, well, that's name is singular,
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  Speaker 2: but the father Son is plural. And then in you
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  Speaker 2: know John one one, you have all these passages at
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  Speaker 2: the early Church is trying to come out of this
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  Speaker 2: Jewish framework of monotheism, which is very strict, and all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden they're going back and going, oh, look
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  Speaker 2: at that. There are there are hints of this of
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  Speaker 2: this try you and God and the Old Testament. You
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  Speaker 2: know Proverbs thirty about who's the Son? Do you know
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  Speaker 2: his name? You know Isaiah nine to six, the Mighty God.
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  Speaker 2: So you have all these passages John one one in
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  Speaker 2: the beginning was the word, the word was with God,
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  Speaker 2: the word was God. So you have all these things
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  Speaker 2: that they're wrestling with, and I actually give them, I
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  Speaker 2: give them credit because plus, apart from just simply trying
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  Speaker 2: to live, you know, in a in a very I
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  Speaker 2: would say primitive, but a much more difficult society, they're
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  Speaker 2: wrestling with these theological challenges. How do we how do
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  Speaker 2: we believe in one God? But yet we see this
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  Speaker 2: text reveal the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. And when you come to the prophecy
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  Speaker 3: issues here you run into the whole controversy. If you
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  Speaker 3: don't have settled theological terminology, you don't have a settled
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  Speaker 3: eschatological systematic theology. And then you come to the issue
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  Speaker 3: of a distinction between Israel and the Church, and that
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  Speaker 3: you're going to have the Church facing one set of
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  Speaker 3: circumstances in the last days, and then God's going to
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  Speaker 3: return to Israel and they're going to face another set
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  Speaker 3: of circumstances. And how are you going to clarify that,
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  Speaker 3: How are you going to qualify it, how are you
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  Speaker 3: going to describe it?
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  Speaker 2: Yep, So let's bring up another passage which I think
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  Speaker 2: is fascinating is the seventy weeks of Daniel Daniel nine,
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  Speaker 2: but he's giving them, he's given the angels explaining it
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  Speaker 2: to Daniel. But then in Daniel twelve he says, this
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  Speaker 2: is you know, six hundred BC sealed up Daniel, because
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  Speaker 2: it's at the time of the end, it'll knowledge will
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  Speaker 2: be increased. Ama. So we have this recognition that the
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  Speaker 2: first century, second century, some of their eschatology was you know,
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  Speaker 2: it was varied, and so we expect that as we
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  Speaker 2: get closer to the end and Israel comes back as
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  Speaker 2: a nation, which happened in forty eight, that now all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden we begin to understand more. But there
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  Speaker 2: were those, There were those as I can re presentation
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  Speaker 2: another place on just some of the commentaries before, like
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  Speaker 2: a eighteen hundreds, they recognize Israel's coming back as a nation.
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  Speaker 2: That's a straight value, that's a straightforward reading of scripture.
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  Speaker 2: But what we do see now is in the last
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  Speaker 2: couple hundred years, as we see Israel become a nation,
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  Speaker 2: we go now we can see more how the framework
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  Speaker 2: is works for this end of the age scenario.
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  Speaker 3: That's exactly right, because you can't really have some of
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  Speaker 3: the prophecies about Israel in the last days, there's really
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  Speaker 3: nothing underneath. If Israel isn't there as a physical nation.
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  Speaker 3: They start with the assumption that Israel is in the
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  Speaker 3: land as a nation.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. So let's go to you know, one hundred and
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  Speaker 2: twenty eight or you know, one hundred and fifty eighty
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  Speaker 2: iron ass or whatever. So to two hundred where he
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  Speaker 2: was around two hundred. Is that he's about one fifty
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  Speaker 2: to two.
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  Speaker 3: Hundred the mid second century.
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  Speaker 2: So the Barkok revolt has already been completed in one
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  Speaker 2: thirty five.
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  Speaker 3: Ye.
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  Speaker 2: The israel Is now they're completely eliminated from the land
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  Speaker 2: under threat of death. So for a theologian, they're looking
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  Speaker 2: over at Israel and the man Israel's gone, gone dust,
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  Speaker 2: been of history, exiled to all the nations, as Jesus
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  Speaker 2: said in Luke twenty one. So for them, I can imagine,
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  Speaker 2: and we see this with Augustin later in four hundred
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  Speaker 2: and eighty. He's recognizing, oh, this is replacement theology. Israel
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  Speaker 2: is now all the promises in the Old Testament that
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  Speaker 2: were unfulfilled, which they recognized they were unfulfilled, all those
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  Speaker 2: are going to be fulfilled somewhere sometime in the Church,
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  Speaker 2: in this new work of God doing in the Church age.
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  Speaker 2: So we can see why, in some ways, based on
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  Speaker 2: their I would call it current event hermeneutics, that they recognize, Oh,
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  Speaker 2: Israel's gone. So for God to be true and faithful,
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  Speaker 2: those prophises must be fulfilled, and the only way they
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  Speaker 2: can be fulfilled is in the Church versus them saying, hey,
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  Speaker 2: in some future time, God's going to bring Israel back.
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  Speaker 2: That was inconceivable to them.
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  Speaker 3: And what's interesting is it wasn't inconceivable in iron Aus
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  Speaker 3: this time, because he writes very clearly, for instance, in
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  Speaker 3: Heresies chapter five thirty four to one, which is on
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  Speaker 3: page three. Here he says, I make the observation here
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  Speaker 3: the iron As regards God as having two redemption programs.
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  Speaker 3: And he says, he who in the New Testament raises
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  Speaker 3: up from the stones children under Abraham, is he who
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  Speaker 3: will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall
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  Speaker 3: be saved from all the nations. Jeremiah says, behold the
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  Speaker 3: days come, saith the Lord that they shall no more
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  Speaker 3: say the Lord lives, who led the children of Israel
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  Speaker 3: from the north and from every region whither they had
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  Speaker 3: been driven he will restore them to their own land,
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  Speaker 3: which he gave to their fathers. So he makes a
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  Speaker 3: clear distinction between the New Testament program and the Old
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  Speaker 3: Testament saints being gathered again. And if you think about it,
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  Speaker 3: the New Testament program is obviously dominated by the Gentiles,
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  Speaker 3: but those Old Testament promises of gathering Israel, they're gathering
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  Speaker 3: the physical seed of Jacob.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I see here, this is a great I'm
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  Speaker 2: seeing some of this for the first time only because
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  Speaker 2: here you have something being written again in the mid
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  Speaker 2: second century. I'm going to include this in my presentation.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't have this before because this idea of the
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  Speaker 2: spiritual seed. We know that Galatians three the spiritual seed
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  Speaker 2: of Abraham. We know that we're part of that. Ye
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: you know, he's the father of the faithful. But you
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: still have the physical seed or the ethnic seed of Abraham,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: which is Israel specifically, as we know the rest of
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the passages of scripture about them being restored. For him
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: to say he'll restore them to their own land, that's
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: absolutely incredible that he understood that distinction.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And so this is really part of
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: the case that we can use to demonstrate that irene
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: Aus really did hold a pre tribulation rapture. He made
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: a distinction between the Church saints of this age and
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: the Israel that's after the Church is out of the picture,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: as well as having some pre trip rapture picture passages
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: that we'll look at in a moment.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: So let let look. Let me do another thing here
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: for the for the listeners, because when we think about dispensationalism,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: it's a dirty word in many many camps. But I
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: want people to understand that dispensationalism, at least as it
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: relates to the key pillars. You have a literal hermoneutic yeap,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: you take scripture straightforward. If the prophecies of Jesus' first
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: coming were literal, the prophecies of his second comer in literal,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's to me, that's very expected. The second
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: distinction is or the second pillar is that the Church
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: and is role are distinct absolutely. And the third pillar
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: is that God does everything for his glory. So that's it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: There's three. So you can have dispensationalism is at the
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: core those three things. Now from there you can have
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: a calvinist dismissationalists. You can have Armenian dispensationalists. You can
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: have a charismatic dismissations. You can have somebody that is
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: baptizing babies as a dispensation. I mean, so we don't
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: want to look at those like a charismatic as an
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: example of a theology as defining dismensationals. It isn't, that's right,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: But so oftentimes people will throw oh dismissations, they're all Calvinists, Well,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be one of those, or they're
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: all Arminian, Well I don't want to be one of those.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: That has nothing really to do with dismensational thinking. It
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: has to do with that literal hermonatic again, a distinction
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: between church and is well and he does all things
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: for the glory of God. So with that as a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: as a backdrop, when you see what iron As is
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: saying here, this is very dismensational, absolutely in the sense
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: he's taken things literal that would be the only way
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: he would get there. And he's making a distinction between
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the spiritual seed and the physical seed.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, we've got another passage here, let's see,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: it's on the last page here, page four, and I
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: bring out well, actually it starts on the.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Page three, number four there on the bottom.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Yep. So we are going to be looking at where
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Ironais sees Israel and the tribulation. And so he's up
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: the passages in Hereses five, section twenty five point four,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: and we read here a king of a most fierce
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: countenance shall arise, one understanding dark questions and exceedingly powerful,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: full of wonders, and he shall corrupt, direct and influence
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: and put strong men down. And then and I put
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: it in italics here the Holy people. Likewise, so he's
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: God of Vendetta here against the Holy People. But he's
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: going to qualify who he means by the Holy People.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And then he points out that the time that his
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice under God,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: and then clarifies again in the midst of the week,
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: the abomination of desolation shall be brought into the temple.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Even under the consummation of the time, shall the desolation
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: be complete. Now three years and six months constitute the
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: half week.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: So this is Daniel nine. Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: So basically, what he's saying is he's taking the return
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: to the Temple and the return of the sacrifices literally,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: and he qualifies what saints. He's talking about those that
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: are offering a pure sacrifice under God. This is talking
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: about the physical nation of Israel returned under God.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: So let me ask, do you the word pure? There
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: is there any other nuance to that in the sense
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: of because I imagine iron As probably would have a
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: difficulty of thinking that the sacrifice from a new Covenant
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: perspective would be pure. Is there any other who offer
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: a pure sacrifice? And you know, you see where I'm
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: going in that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, what I would gather is he was so
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: close to the Apostolic age. I mean, Irene asked a
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of John himself.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: So the very apostle who had written the Book of Revelation,
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: who put the capstone on the prophetic revelation for all
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: the scriptures, had personally communicated the core dispensational understanding to Polycarp.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: Polycarp had delivered that to iron As. I suspect that
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: iron As really did understand maybe in a simpler form
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: than we do. But God was going to go back
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: to Israel that they have seven more years under the
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: law and that God is going to bring the new
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Covenant salvation to them. And I think that's where he's going.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, in him to say that the sacrifice and
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: libation shall be taken away. I mean, this is Daniel
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: nine twenty seven. I mean, this is this is clear
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: that he's referencing that passage and that he gets it
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: so right so early is very impressive. Well, let's do
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: a couple of things here, because I think this is helpful.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: So you you we talked about your first presentation at
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the pre trib and then you you gave another presentation
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: skeletal thing of iron Ais. But what's been happening recently again,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: some some big time guys are coming in there and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: they're being critical, which is again it's fine. I don't
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: mind criticism. Hopefully everybody's nice about it. But let's talk
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: about some of the the the the methodology of some
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of these criticisms that you you have here. Let's talk
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: about number one down there or number two so on
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the bottom page one, yep, let's talk about what let's
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: let's look you and I are going to do another uh
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: presentation on the alleged problems with the pre trib We
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: want to address those we like, we like ob objections,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: but let's talk about some of the ways in which
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: people are criticizing here.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, basically what I see is whenever error is
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: attacking truth, they use the unholy trinity, okay, and uh,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: that involves there's always a mantra, there's always a selective
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: use of evidence or a proof text theology, and then
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: there's argument against the man at harmony. This is the
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: unholy trinity of false doctrine. And to me, like when
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: the Bible says you can know false teachers, we really
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: have two tests to understand false teachers. Not one because
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: we already know there's a test of okay, who's got
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: the best exegetical arguments from the scripture. But the second
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: test is those that learn their doctrine from the Father
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: of lies learn how to defend that doctrine from the
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: accuser of the brethren. And there's a little bit doesn't
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: mean they're not real believers, but there's an element of
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: harshness in their dealings and an element of unfairness, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: so they always fall back on a mantra that's defended
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: with proof texts, and then they argue against the person
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: rather than present Exejesus.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean again, we don't. I'm glad you
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: mentioned that. With that, we're not saying to anybody this
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: agrees with us or unbelievers, but by any means. But
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is, and we we've said this,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this where we all
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: believe Jesus Christ's Lord and savior absolutely and uh, and
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: some of these other issues, as important as they are. Uh,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: you don't have to believe in the preacher rapture to
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: be saved, you absolutely not. Yeah. So we call these
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: nonsalvfic issues important issues. And so when when when we
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: come to these, we we go, hey, guys, make sure
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: that you're being fair, because I want to be that way.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I want to be I don't want to attack the person.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: That's not a fair argument. I don't want to bring
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: his character into play. He could be the worst guy
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: in the world. Uh, maybe he's out sleeping around or
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: he's doing drugs, but he's got good theology. So the
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: fact of the matter is, I want to interact with
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: his argument and now his person that's between him and
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the Lord. They're gonna work that out. But if if
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: he if he makes a theological comments, I'm gonna engage
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: the argument itself. That's exactly so, you know, so when
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: what what I do see oftentimes is those comments that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: people make that they you know, they'll start attacking the person.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Oh you're a pre trip. We know how you are,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and you're like, really, come on, can she be nice?
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I just had a guy recently. He was trying to
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: trying to engage me into some eschatology uh comments, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I said, sure, I like talking theology. But about three
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: emails in, because I didn't agree, all, I'm going to hell.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: It was just it was very I was like, wow,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: just because I don't agree with exactly what you think
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: that the Great White Throne judgment's going to be, that
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: now I'm on my way to Hell. I said, I
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: thought my salvation was based on my faith in Jesus.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: But so I was like, hey, man, you know what,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm done. It's not that I don't like to
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: discuss these things, but if you're gonna get all angry
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: and start putting hell fire on everybody, I go I'm
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: not interested. I said, you know, the the goal is
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: this is one, tween is thirteen two. If I know
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: all mysteries, If I have perfect theology but I don't
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: have love, that's right, I'm nothing.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: And when we come to the theological debate and you
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: really nailed it, we can leave the character out of
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: the question because only that matters is who's presented the
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: truth of the scriptures most accurately. And I've discovered that
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: when you're in a conversation, whether it's formal debate, whether
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: it's just a living room conversation over a cup of coffee,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: if one party gets frustrated and they can't answer point
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: by point with what the Bible says, and they start
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: to lose their traction, they will jump into the argument
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: against a man, argument at hominem.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And these are you know, I studied logic, which is
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: good and bad because my poor daughter's growing up it
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: was always specificity was like the favorite word of the
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: family and specific city girls specificity. But they learned in
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: the sense of to think carefully and with precision. And
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: so you think about again the fallacy of the ad
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: homine market. Well, if I'm not getting this way I'm
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: just going to attack the person's character. Well, that's not
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: doing it. But also one of the other things that
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: you see is you have written here there are claims
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: that no scholar has ever believed that Ireneus was pre trip. Well,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: that's the fallacy of rooting to authority. So what does
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that have to do with things? Because no scholar agrees
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: with this. Now, there's a certain level of humility that Okay, well,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be some loaner in my theology.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But we know that after the New Testament was written
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and finished, theologians came up with new discoveries or new
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: ideas all the time. So somebody had to discover it
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: as being new. And so the real question is not
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: whether I can quote a scholar. Sometimes it's helpful because
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: maybe they've done additional work. The question is is it true?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Is it biblical? Does it match good exegetical methodology?
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I and I agree. For instance, when you bring
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: up this question and they'll say, okay, no scholar that
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I'm aware of has ever held that iron As was
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: pre trip. Well, what's funny to me is okay, I
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: just do a little quick Google search on my front
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: page on the top ten results. I get several well
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: known names that were mentioned the iron as.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Is pre trib okay.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: But what's also interesting is I would say, Okay, well,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: it doesn't really.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Matter, becauesn't matter.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't personally know a single theologian that's read
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: the entirety of iron Ass's heresies from the first chapter
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: to the beginning of the first chapter, all the way
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: to the first book, all the way to the end
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: of the fifth book, read it in English, and then
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: worked through the Latin and the Greek of the passages
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: that were difficult to understand to make sure that they
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: had the they were actually being faithful to what the
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: intent of the author was. And so so, if you
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: don't have people that have actually worked all the way
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: through iron Ass's ecclesiology and eschatology and work through the
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: whole work and came up with conclusions on the eschatology,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: and came up with conclusions on the ecclesiology, and these
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: things harmonize and balance with each other. If you don't
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: have that, then really all you're talking about is you're
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: just throwing names out there. But they're they're scholars in
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: their own right, but they're not necessarily a scholar in
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: iron ass.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: See and and well even let's let's put another angle
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: on it. You have people that maybe are a scholar
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: in iron ass but they're not a scholar and systematic
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: theology exactly. And so now it takes a very balanced
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: approach to come to the place of going, okay, that's
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: why you know, when I was in college and seminary,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I try to be very broad, right because and as
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: a pastor, you just you can't help a bit try
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: to be broad because you're pastoring, so there's all kinds
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: of breadth to what people ask you. So you kind
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: of have to be a general practitioner of things. But
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: in reality, I look, I think about the work that
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you're doing. So let's say you take an irony as
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: scholar who's reading the Latin the Greek, but he doesn't
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: understand what we just mentioned earlier, the distinctions of dispensational thinking.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: He maybe comes from a covenantal perspective or whatever. So
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: as he's reading it, he's going to see something totally different.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: By not he's not going to see that that distinction
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that we saw earlier between the spiritual seed, which is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: a new covenant idea and the physical seed, and that's
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: very dispensational. So if he doesn't have that, if he
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: lumps them all into one group, then he's not going
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: to see those things aren't going to jump out at him.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and he's gonna miss him.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: They're gonna have the same struggles reading Ironaus that they
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: have reading the Old Testament and the New Testament.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yep, So let's let's let's talk about that for a minute. Because, uh,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: one of the things that that I like, For example,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I have a I have a rough reform study Bible.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I got this big fat Bible. Some people see it
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: on television like what Bible is that. I go, well,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: it's a reform study Bible edited Biras sproll And And
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: it's not that I agree with Arcie Sproul on his eschatology.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: But the reason I got it is because I wanted
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to make sure that I was reading him accurately. So
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: when I open up Matthew twenty four and I have
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: his book that he wrote the Last Days according to Jesus,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, I don't want to misrepresent this guy.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: He's my brother I love. I'm gonna see him heaven.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: He's there now. But I don't want to be one
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: of those guys that misrepresents the other perspective and we
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: don't have all the answers. But on that note, you
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: have this confusion sometimes with the word church. That's right,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So talk about that and talk about maybe the history. Again.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: We understand from dispensational perspective, church is very distinct. But
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: let's talk about how the word church sometimes is misconstrued
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: or confused.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, for instance, in modern dispensationalism, when we use
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: the word church, we are referring not to all the
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: saints of all the ages. We are referring only to
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: the saints that basically from the time of Christ forwards
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: to the ton Pentecostal to the saints of this age.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: And we think the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: we would put them in under the heading of Israel
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: and maybe Gentile proselyates to Israel. It's a very different idea. Now,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: if you're in the reform camp, they use the word
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: church that collects everyone from Adam all the way to
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: the end of the age. It's a very it's like anybody.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: It's ever been a believer. It's considered the church for them,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and and that that creates a lot of confusion, especially
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: when we're trying to have conversations. You said about the church,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: We're like, no, no, no, we're talking for pentecost On
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: and not even So. This is the other thing too,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: is the word the word saints, because you see that
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: in Daniel right, the Saints will be overcome by the Antichrist,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: and they're like, oh see that's the church because we're saints.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Paul says, we're saints, right, Oliver to the saints at
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Philip Philippi. You also see the word elect. That's right.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: So people need to understand that the word elect, the
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: word believer, the word say. We would all agree from
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: a dismisational perspective.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: That's exactly that.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Those are the broadest terms you can have, and they
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: mean believers of all time. But when we talk about church,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Jesus said Matthew sixteen, I will build my church. It's
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: a future thing that that began at Pentecost, and the saints,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: the believers during the tribulation, they're not part of the church.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. See, so this is when you go to Matthew
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: twenty four, and Jesus sends the angels to go to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: gather the elect They say, see Matthew twenty four to
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: twenty eight. After the tribulation, he sends his angels that's
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the church, you go, no, no, no. The elect is a
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: broad word. It means believer of any age, so that
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't it's not a slam dunk against a pretri position exactly.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: And one of the difficulties we face is Irenaeus in
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: book five and chapter twenty six, Section one has a
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: passage that's the well known post trip passage for I,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: and it has the church is being put to flight.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: So he has the church in the tribulation.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Let's let's read it, let's do it. Let's pull that out.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I actually don't have that.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: From our conversation. Okay, yeah, so the church is put
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to flights. What does that mean? Then let's let's what's
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: going on there.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: So what we have to understand is, and I'm going
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: to bring this out in an article I'm gonna put
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: up on my website, but Ireneus has several passages in
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: which he defines what he means by the church. So
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: we believe the church is just the saints of this age,
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: and the contrast from all the other ages, Irenaeus is
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: a little broader. He has the church is a technical
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: term for all the seed of Abraham, the spiritual seed
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: and the physical seed. And he makes a clear distinction
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: between God's working with the gentiles of this age and
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: gonna be returning to Israel. So as soon as you
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: go down that route, the fact that he has the
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: church and the tribulation, you have to decide, okay, is
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: he talking about the spiritual seed of Abraham or the
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: physical seat of Abraham. Now, if you're going to get
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: bent out of shape over the use of a particular
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: word over terminology, you're going to make a debate here.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: He says church, he must mean what we mean by church.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: But the fact of the matter is you have to
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: go to his context. You have to go to his
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: other writings, his other writings to qualify or clarify what
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: he means by the word church.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: See, this is some of the other thing that we
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: were talking about. In the sense of approaches. All of
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: us can do this. I know I've been guilty of this,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: guilty of proof texting. Yeah, I mean, which is natural?
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: You know, give me verse, that give me verse. That's
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: kind of the way that we should live. But we
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: also could say, give me verse, and then we selectively
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: present a verse, and that we minimize the other verses
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: that might shed increased light on how we're taking that wrong.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: You see this a lot in the trinitarian debate. You
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: just pull a verse out There's one God, and then
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: you go, okay, well what do we do with that.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: There's one God. That's it. That's it. There's no trinity,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: and so or Jesus says my father is greater than I.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: There it is proof text. Don Jeovah's witnesses will do this,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and you go, well, what's the context, how is that written?
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And is there other passes? What does it mean? Over See,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: if all we had was that verse my Father is
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: greater than I, we would miss that he's talking in
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: his servant role, in his humanity versus his dity, which
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: he didn't set aside. His d he set aside the
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: prerogatives of his deity and philographs too. So but here
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: we have a proof texting problem and we don't want
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: to be guilty of that. But in this instance, if
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: we take the one verse, the church is put to
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: flight without taking into consideration the other things that Irnas
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: wrote about the fullness of what he means, we would
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: miss that, and that would be honestly, that would be
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: a very powerful verse for a post trib or whatever.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But now we see the rest of the context, You're like, no,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: it blunts it.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: That's right. And so we already looked at passages where
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: we see that he has a clarification or a distinction
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: between Israel and the Church. But he's actually got three
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: pretty I think they're clear pre trip rapture passages, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: the first one is on page two here.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's jump into some of these because this is
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: this is great.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: Here's the first one. It's in again. All this stuff
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: is from the Heresies, and this is Heresies Book five,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Chapter five, Section one.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: So before you get in there for a second, if
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: people want to look at this, are these things that
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: you're looking at in English or in Greek?
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: This you can get the whole translation of all five
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: books in English easily. Just google Irons plus English and
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: you'll bring up several different websites that have the full
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: English translation.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, so what you're doing here is simply in English.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: So people wanted to go look this up. Yep, they
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: can for themselves. Okay, so five point against Sarres's five
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: point five point one.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Yep. For Enoch, when he pleased God was translated in
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: the same body in which he did please him, thus
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just Elijah
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: too when he was caught up in the substance of
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: his natural form, thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in their
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: way of their body being translated and caught up. And
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: then I put a little ellipses in there because I
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: skipped the section. And then we have wherefore also the
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: elders who were disciples of the apostles. So he's talking
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: about people like polycarpent Clement tell us that those who
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: were translated were translated to that place, for paradise had
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: been prepared for righteous men such as have the spirit,
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: in which Paul, also the Apostle, when he was caught up,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: heard words that are unspeakable as regard us in our
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: present condition, and that they shall and that there shall
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: they who have been translated remain until the consummation all things.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: So what he's talking about you have the initial anticipation
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: of a few individuals like Enoch that went to heaven,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: and they're gonna wait there until the very end. But
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: the translation of the Just also is coming, and they're
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: gonna go to heaven. This is John fourteen one, two three.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: They're gonna go to heaven and they're gonna wait there
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: with the Just until the end. He's making a distinction
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: between the rapture and the second coming. Another one, and
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: this is the common one that if people know about
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: any pretrip passages in iron Ais, this is the one
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: they know, which is five point twenty nine point one. Therefore,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: up from this, it is said there shall be tribulations
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: for this is the last contest of the righteous, in
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: which when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption. And
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: so we see here there's a removal of the church suddenly,
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: and then once that removal has taken place, then there's
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: going to be a great tribulation, which is the last
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: contest of the righteous. Makes you if you start with
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: the assumption there's only one second coming. There's only one coming.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: There's one gathering of the believers. You're going to see
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: here that you want the church to be in the tribulation.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: You understand there's a distinction, and you understand that ironeis
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: makes a distinction. And now you're going to have the
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: church going up and then you're going to have more
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: saints in the tribulation.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's that's the important thing is to see
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: here that there is a second group of saints, of
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: believers from every tribe, tongue, nation. Right Revelation seven, you
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: see you see people getting saved during the tribulation period,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: post rapture lots.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: And so one of the things that's interesting too is
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: when you compare Matthew sixteen at the Gates of Hell,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: well shall not prevail or against the Church. But yet
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: in Revelation thirteen seven you have that the Antichrist has
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: given authority to prevail over the saints or over the
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: people at that time. And so that's one of the
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: big dispensations distinctives to say. And Daniel a Ight says
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the same thing that you have that the believers being
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: annihilated during the tribulation period, which is so different than
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: what you have in the other passages of scripture about
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: us not being a destined to wrath, appointed to wrath,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: we're delivered from the wrath to come, and that we're
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: going to go be with Jesus. You know, we're going
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: to skip the whole hour of trial Revelation three ten.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: So that's very important to see that they're here. He's
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: clearly mentioning this second group of righteous, of elect believers
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: of saints, however you want to phrase it.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we have the same kind of tension going on
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: here between the rapture and the Second Coming that the
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: the apause when they were first dealing with the Lord
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Jesus at his first coming, and the Old Testament prophets
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: had the same thing. How do you reconcile the reigning
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Messiah passages with the suffering Messiah passages and so all
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: the way up until the time of the cross Lord.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: At this time, are you going to bring the kingdom?
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of confusion, and I
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: think God, God, in his brilliance, puts you know, jose
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: says that a little bit here, a little bit there,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: precept upon precept, you know, in order to hide in
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: plain sight his plan. It's there. When we look at hindsight,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: we go, oh, look at that, it was obvious yep,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And God say yeah. Now then hindsight when he brings
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it together by historical reference. I think there's some of
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: that we'll see. Most people will see as we come
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: at the second coming, and we'll look back and go, yeah,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: it was there the whole time. But we see through
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: glass darkly.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: Well, we got one more rapture passage here. Perhaps we
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: should go through the.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: This is in Hereses five point thirty one to two.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: For as the Lord went away in the midst of
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: the shadow of death, where the souls of the dead were,
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: was taken up, it is manifest that the souls of
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: the disciples, also upon whose account the Lord underwent, these things,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: then receiving their bodies and rising in their entirety, that
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: thus into the presence of God. So here the pattern
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: with the resurrection of the Lord was to rise from
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: the dead and descend to glory. And we see the
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: same pattern that is going to happen in the resurrection
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: with the church. And if you compare this with the
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: other rapture passages, he's here talking, he's on the John
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: fourteen track. We're gonna we're gonna ascend, rise, ascend from
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: the grave in resurrection and then rise to heaven and
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: we're gonna await there.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's keep let's keep rocking here.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: All right. Well, so when we put this together, now
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: we've we touched on earlier. We touched on that iron
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: as saw two redemption programs, and we looked at here.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Now there's a pre tribulation rapture. So if you have
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: a rapture where people are delivered prior to a time
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: of tribulation, and you've got distinct programs. You've got the
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: spiritual seed, which is the gentile saints of this age,
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: and you have the physical seed, which is the Lord
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: returning to the nation of Israel and gathering them. Now
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: we're looking at something that's clearly dispensational. And then we have, uh,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: there's passages which we looked at and we can take
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: another return back to them, but there are saints in
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: the tribulation that are Jewish saints. And that passage we
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: looked at earlier five twenty five four where the Holy
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: People who are the ones the saints that are put
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: to flight, who offer a pure sacrifice to God. And
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: then it goes on to mention that the contexts from
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Daniel nine twenty four through twenty seven with the Temple.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: So I think it's very interesting. You've got the distinction
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: between the two classes of redeemed saints, You've got a
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: rapture before the tribulation, You've got saints in the tribulation,
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: and you've got passages in iron As that qualify that
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: these are Jews in the tribulation. So I don't see
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: how you can escape the conclusion that iron Aus was
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: pre tribulation. The only way you can avoid that is
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: to ignore all the qualifying passages and just do a
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: proof text passage where you say, here we see the
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Church in the tribulation.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: And you know, again, I think that I don't want
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to put on any of the Church father the Ma
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: earn the very specific modern nuanced label right of pre
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: trip Like I mean again, you could go go to Dallas.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: You can get all the pre tribu want in the
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: sense you get a degree in historical theology, and you
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: could have this fine tuned, you know, all the modern
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: systemization of pretributational or dispensational doctrine. You're not saying that
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: he would pass the test, right, that iron As would pass,
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: But at the nugget level, at the seed level, at
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: the at the basics, or even at the foundational level,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: clearly he is.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right. Yep. Yeah, he has the core precepts
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: that make a person dispensational versus a replacement theology. Yeah,
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: but certainly his dispensationalism falls well, it's not modern development.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: But again that's why I think at the beginning, I
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: really wanted to say, hey, at the core level, this
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: is what you have, this distinction between Israel the literal
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Hermontic and everything's done for the glory of God, and
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that that if you make the distinct between at least
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the first two. For sure, if you take a little
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: hormonic and the distinction, you'll end up you have to
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: end up as a preacher person, because you'll recognize the
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: purpose of the seventieth Week of Daniel.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean to deal with Israel and give the
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: people the physical seed of Jacob a second chance to
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: embrace the New Covenant in Christ's blood, because Israel cannot
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: receive her promises, her land or temple or throne promises,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: kingdom promis, can't inherit any of them. Apart from the
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: New Covenant. The Old Covenant can only condemn, it cannot save.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely, I mean Book of Hebrews. All right, let's
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: keep moving.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: Well, I think with this we have actually gone through
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: all the material here as far as presenting the preacher
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: of passages, presenting the distinction between Israel and the Church,
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: and just demonstrating that there were actually Jewish believers are
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: the ones that are in the tribulation. So I think
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: here then when we step back, okay, step back from
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: ironeis and we say okay, here we've shown that the
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: earliest Father, whom we have really a full eschatology teachings from,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: is pre trip. This is really important to me because
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, we know that we have the passages I
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: brought from and Grant Jeffries has also brought some afrim
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: Assyrian passages and we have Eusebius. So then we have
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: the standard rapture passages that appear in a lot of lists,
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: But when you come to Ireneus here this is really
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: in many ways ground zero. He's the earliest, big name,
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: the earliest one with extensive writing, that's well known, and
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: that actually has a developed eschatology. And so if we
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: can see that Ironeus is pre trip, I think it
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: greatly strengthens the position that there were was a pre
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: trib testimony in the early Church. But I think where
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: people get confused is they got this idea that either
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: all the early fathers were pre trib or they were
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: all post trip. We've only got a choice one of
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: the other. But this is simply not the case. I mean,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: from the very beginning, there was debate in the Church
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: on different doctrines and different aspects of eschatology. And I
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: think it's very illuminating to be able to go through
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: the early Fathers and see people that were clearly non
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: dispensational and they were replacement, but to see earlier fathers
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: or concurrent fathers who were dispensational and made distinction between
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: Islam and Church.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: So I think that if somebody has a church father's collection, yeah,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: we can get it on you know, I was almost
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: going to say ce d Rahm, because that's how I
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: first got it. But if you get it digitally now
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I mean thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: at that time, I mean the first four centuries, it's
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: amazing how much we do know of the writings that
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: took place. Now, then you enter the dark ages, right,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: there's there's writings certainly here and there, but not as
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: voluminously as you have in the first four centuries. But
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: let's fast forward to now, let's say the last hundred years,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: so you look at the last hundred years of Christian
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: thought in all the different realms. Maybe, yeah, if you
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: want to use Catholic, that's fine, let's add them in
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: the mix. So now let's fast forward from this point too.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Let's if the Lord Terry's to twenty three hundred and eighty.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: Okay, So they're gonna look.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Back and go, well, what do those Christians think? You know,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: in the twentieth century, So you could go back and
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: you go, oh, well, clearly they didn't. You know, people
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: didn't believe this because when you look back at the church,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: now all that's named the church, just the visible church,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have every theological stripe under the sun, and
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: so you can't say, and this is what I want
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: to make sure people understand. We're not saying that the
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: pre trip idea was universal in the second century. That's right,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: it wasn't, just like, we can't say that it's universal
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: in this present century. But the would be if someone's
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: looking back at the twentieth century, from twenty three hundred,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: they go, well, it was definitely there. There were threads
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: of it going through historical maybe not certainly, not universally.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: So what we're saying now is no one's claiming that
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: this idea of the pre trib was well known in
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: every theologian and in the East or down in Alexandria,
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: in the South, or in Rome. It's here. And that's
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: the whole point, is that, just like now, there's pockets.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Would that be a fair statement.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: I would agree absolutely that in the early Church, I
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: think that a pre tribulational teaching was taught by the apostles.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: I do not think that everybody understood it. They didn't
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: have enough theological context and eschatology context to really grapple
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: with it, and it was quickly being lost and then
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: in the late second century, early third century, there was
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: an explosion of replacement theology. By the time we get
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: deep into the fourth century, and by the time we're
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: into the fifth century the four hundreds, the replacement theology
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: completely dominated.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: So again let's let's talk about why that is. Because
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: you have origin. Yes, he was like the beginning of
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: the modern allegorical movement, and then of course Augustine took
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: that right up. So when you look at that, even Alexandria,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: the Alexandria movement versus more of the Antiochian movement, the
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: antioch Group, which is, you know, basically in the in
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: the Middle East, they stuck to that literal hermeneutic. But
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: if you take the allegorical, you're gonna end up all
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: over the map. That's why you're gonna end up with
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: replacement theology. And of course Augustine's non literal millennial kind
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: of thinking, because you're gonna go, oh, we don't need
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: to take that. So let's remember that it comes back
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: to number one. The number one distinction or the everyone
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: distinctive of dispensational thought is taking the scriptural, literal, normal,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: normal hermeneutics. I want to say little but normal hermeneutics,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: recognizing that when it says Jesus is going to be
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: born in Bethlehem, it's a literal thing. Bethlehem means house
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: of bread. Oh well, really, what that means is not
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: that we don't need to worry about him actually being
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: born in Bethlehem. It's that Jesus said he's the bread
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: of life. See, and so you can take that and
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: you can make it allegorical and figurative and end up
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: anywhere you want, But we don't see that.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. And another interesting point I find
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: fascinating is it in the early Church when this replacement
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: theology came through, Amillennialism rolled through like a steamroller, and
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: literal millennium went out the window. But yet hanging on
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: when we get in the fourth century, we late third
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: century have Eusebius. In the mid fourth century, we have
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: f Him the Syrian, and these guys, even though they
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: were millennial themselves and they had taken the Old Testament
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: promises to Israel and spiritualized them for the Church, they
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: still based on the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: the Gospels and Paul's epistles. They saw material on which
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: they taught a pre tribulation rapture.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if people can you know the whole idea
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: of killialism, right, I mean we call it, you know today,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: millennial thinking, but back then they used a different word.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: But it's it's this idea of a thousand years, a
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: literal thousand years they see in Revelation twenty. They believed it,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: and then it became spiritualized.
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: I mean they had a physical they recognized, no, this
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: is going to be a physical kingdom, but then it
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: became spiritualized real like you said with I would say origin,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: and then Augustine, and then on and then it spread
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: because again Augustine was extremely influential. And do I disagree
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: with everything Augusta said? No, by no means he had
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of great stuff in talking about the nature
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: of God and nature of salvation and other things. But
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: even going to the Reformers, we could fast forward there.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, these guys were fighting for their lives, but
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: they did a great job of rescuing the straightforward understanding
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: of the Gospel of grace, the soulless right, that's right.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: They did a great job of rescuing that back. And
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: I think many of them didn't have the time. For example,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: if you look at John Calvin's works, just in as
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: an example, he didn't write on Revelation. He didn't write
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: a commentary, you know, he just he wrote on so
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: many other books, and even many of the things in Ezekiel,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: the second half of Ezekiel, he didn't write a commentary
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: on that because whether he didn't know, or didn't have time,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: or whether it was too confusing.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: But well, it'd be difficult to try and bring out
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: the new Covenant, that material that's in the latter half
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: of Ezekiel, Yeah, for sure, as always as well as
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: the temple exactly.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I mean you think about what do they do with
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Ezeco forty through forty eight. I mean even today some
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: of the covenants, well, if you look at some of
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: the covenant the loads es today, again, love God, they're
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: wonderful people, but when they come to Zekera forty have
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: no other choice but to allegorize it.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: That's right. Well, one other thought I think we should
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: step back into and just reinforce it is the fact
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: that the lesson that we're learning here from Irnas applies
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: not only to when we're studying the early Fathers, or
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: when we're reading the theological writings of anyone past or present.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: But it also applies to our study the scriptures. We
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: don't want to get our understanding of an author from
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: just one single passage, which can be misunderstood. The Bible
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: is its own best interpreter, and we want to be
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: getting our theology, not from theological theology, where you can
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: have you start with a little maxim or a little
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: mantra and then you run with that. We want to
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: get our understanding of theology from the Bible. We want
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: a biblical theology. We want clear statements of scripture, qualified
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: and defined by clear statements of scripture, and the same
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: when we come to iron Aus, was iron As post
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: trip or was he pre trip? Well, I can just
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: throw up one Passes says here this is a pre
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: trip passage. Someone else can throw up a past so
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: this one looks like a post trip passage. But if
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: you step back, you actually wrestle with his ecclesiology, you
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: wrestle with his eschatology. You see the fundamental tenets of
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: dispensationalism and pre tribulationism.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's a very good point because I remember
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: in seminary I wrote a paper on the difference between
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: biblical theology and systematic theology and the relationship because I
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: think oftentimes the goal is to develop a systematic theology,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: but systematic theology cannot happen unless you have a proper
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: biblical theology, because you know, like, for example, all of
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: the examples that is helpful is the word the refaem.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: If you have a systematic theological approach to the refaem, well,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: if you don't understand that Moses in the first five
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: books in the Pentitude uses refaeme different than how Isaiah
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: uses it or other passages, then it's it's if you
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: can't see in a in a biblical theological sense, like
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: let's look at how Isaiah in that book alone uses
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: the word refee versus Moses. When you're developing your systematic theology,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: you're gonna you're not gonna take them into context. You're
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: going to mix them together and to say, well, this
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: is confusing. But if you have the proper biblical theology
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: and in the nature of the words and the linguistics,
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: then you come over and your systemic systematic theology is smooth.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: You go oh, and you see it what they call
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: diachronically through time. You'll see how it developed from Moses
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: all the way to Isaiah. There's been you know, six
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: seven hundred years there between them, and how even the
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: language developed. So that's super important that as we look
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: at the scripture, we take John and we look at
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: John and John alone, and then we we you, we
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: can connect it with Paul, but we want John to
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: be able to stand on his own in John fourteen.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: That's right, or Paul amen. And having this robust, full
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: orbed approach to understanding the scripture is really one of
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: the greatest tools that we need to have in our
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: toolbox when we study the scriptures. One of our greatest dangers,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: I think is people just learning to run with their
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: favorite authorities, yep, their favorite teachers. Their teachers give them
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: a proof text and the official interpretation, and they say
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: this word has to mean this. Well, you go and
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: you study the scriptures. You realize, no, that word does
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: not have to mean that. In fact, that word can't
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: mean that. In fact, years ago, when I was a
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: babe in the Lord and I started studying Greek, my
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: primary motive for studying the Greek was actually to help
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: defend myself against people saying this is what the Greek means.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know what. That's what's what I did too,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: you know, because well I wasn't born Greek or Hebrew,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: and so I like, I want to be I'd read something,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: they'd have a Hebrew word, I'm like, well, I want
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: to be able to know what that says, because it's
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: way different. You know, a script and so the same thing,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: because you know, you got to get into it, you
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: got to go deep. But Lee, hey, appreciate your time
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: today for the audience. Where can people find out more
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: about what you're doing.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: Well, they can go to my website soothkeep dot info.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: That's s O O T h K e e P
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: dot info if you don't know that, soothkeep is Old
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: English for truth Fortress. I have the same handle on
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: my YouTube channel. I've got a lot of videos and
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: material on my YouTube channel, soothkeep Awesome.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Well, for those listening, hopefully you made it this far
• 1:01:37
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• 1:01:39
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• 1:01:44
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