Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Hidden Way Games Are Training Kids to Gamble

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The Hidden Way Games Are Training Kids to Gamble · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. Today we're talking
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: about something that might be happening in your house right
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: now without you even realizing it. Your children may be
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: learning how to gamble while they're playing video games. They
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: don't have to be on any of the betting apps.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: They could just be playing video games and being groomed
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  Speaker 1: into gambling by big tech. New research out of Belgium
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  Speaker 1: has tracked more than five hundred young people over a
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  Speaker 1: twelve month period and found something that parents I think
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: absolutely need to know. Kids who interact with gambling like
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: features in their games are significantly more likely to start
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  Speaker 1: gambling for real money. And the frightening part of this,
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  Speaker 1: we're not just talking about teenagers. This study looked at
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  Speaker 1: kids as young as ten. In today's Doctor's Desk episode
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: of the Happy Families podcast, we break down the study,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: look at what happened in the study, what's happening with
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: our kids, and what we can do about it. Stay
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: with us, that's next.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Mary Kwalski.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Escape since a censory overload using the gaming platform roadblocks,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: but the seventeen year old is worried. Gameplay feels increasingly
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  Speaker 1: like gambling, rolling dice and dependent on your luck you
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: get different pets. To me, bledanly feels like the whole
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: point of the game is gambling. Goday, Welcome to the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every single day. It's
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  Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Today it's a doctor's desk episode with high applicability to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: every family whose kids are odd enough to play games
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  Speaker 1: online on a screen. Kylie, let's kick straight into this one.
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  Speaker 2: So what did they actually do?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? So this is a study coming out of Belgium,
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  Speaker 1: five hundred and sixty one Belgian children age ten to seventeen.
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  Speaker 1: So we're talking about our tweens and our teens. They
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  Speaker 1: were surveyed twice twelve months apart, and essentially the researchers
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  Speaker 1: were tracking their exposure to gambling like elements in games
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  Speaker 1: and the degree to which they were involved in real
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: world gambling.
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  Speaker 2: So when you talk about gambling like elements, what are
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  Speaker 2: you suggesting?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? So in this particular study, I looked at three
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  Speaker 1: types of gambling like elements. You know this, We've talked
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  Speaker 1: about this so much on the pod. Big Tech turns
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  Speaker 1: their platform into something like a casino because of the
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  Speaker 1: flashing lines. Well, the interval of the reward keeps people
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  Speaker 1: coming back and back and back, like the rattle of
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  Speaker 1: the pigeon in the BF skinner box. So three different
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  Speaker 1: types of gambling that they looked at. Loot boxes, social
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: casino games, and watching gambling streams and videos.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I'm curious, how does watching a gambling stream impact players?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about each of these in turn.
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  Speaker 1: If you're watching a gambling stream, what that basically does
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  Speaker 1: is it normalizes the process of gambling. Like it's so
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  Speaker 1: interesting because when you hear things, it's very easy to
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  Speaker 1: be dismissive of them. For example, when we are talking
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: to one of our children about their diet, or about
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: how much sleep they or about how they need to
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: get off their screen, and we start to talk about
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the reasons why, they go, yeah, don't believe it. It's
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  Speaker 1: not consistent with my experience. They just let it go right.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Words that we hear they're like water off a duck's back.
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  Speaker 1: So often when we read something, it seems to carry
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  Speaker 1: more weight. It's almost like when you're literate and meaning
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  Speaker 1: can be conveyed through words on the written page.
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  Speaker 2: Reading someone who you.
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  Speaker 1: Trust is an authority exactly whereas your kids don't trust
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  Speaker 1: that I know. And so basically, when you read something,
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  Speaker 1: you're more likely to go along with it than when
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: you hear it.
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  Speaker 2: And I would also suggest if you're reading it, then
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  Speaker 2: you're motivated to take in what's being shared with you.
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  Speaker 1: It's effortful and you're exactly.
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  Speaker 2: We're choosing it.
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  Speaker 1: The third thing that I was going to highlight is
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  Speaker 1: that when you watch something. When you watch something, then
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  Speaker 1: you almost almost as certain to believe it because seeing
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  Speaker 1: is believing, and the way our brains work, when we
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  Speaker 1: see something happen, we are pretty well convinced that it
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  Speaker 1: is true, that it is real. That's why charts and
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  Speaker 1: graphs are so effect By the way, if you want
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  Speaker 1: to be a space of communicator, just throw some charts
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  Speaker 1: and graphs in your presentations and everyone will believe that
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: you know, what you're talking about is remarkable. And so
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  Speaker 1: basically what happens here If what you see affects your
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  Speaker 1: beliefs much more than what you hear or what you read.
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  Speaker 1: If what you see affects your beliefs, your beliefs affect
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  Speaker 1: your actions. So the more that the behavior is viewed.
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  Speaker 1: The more it is normalized, and the more it is normalized,
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  Speaker 1: the more likely it is that you think, well, if
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  Speaker 1: everyone else is doing it, I might as well do
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  Speaker 1: it as well. So that's how that particular element affects
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  Speaker 1: the probability of a likelihood that your children may end
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  Speaker 1: up gambling because they're watching gambling streams and videos. They're
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  Speaker 1: just seeing it normalized and they think that's what's happening.
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  Speaker 2: What about the other two, Yeah, so.
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  Speaker 1: The other two were loot boxes. For those who are
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  Speaker 1: not familiar with loot boxes because you don't play games,
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  Speaker 1: or your kids don't play games, or you don't think
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  Speaker 1: you kids are playing games at least, a loot box
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  Speaker 1: is like this. It's an in gamer reward, but it
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  Speaker 1: happens randomly. Sometimes you'll pay real money, sometimes you pay
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  Speaker 1: a virtual currency. Sometimes you you might win it, but rarely.
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  Speaker 1: But basically, you've got this opportunity to buy this loot box.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's with points. Right, you've been playing Candy Crush
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  Speaker 1: forever and now there's a loot box and you've got
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  Speaker 1: to have enough stars or enough of whatever so that
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  Speaker 1: you can get the loot box. And you don't know
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  Speaker 1: what you're going to get in the loot box until
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  Speaker 1: you open it. This is literally the same psychological mechanism
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  Speaker 1: as a sorry, I'm pulling the lever a poker machine. Sorry,
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  Speaker 1: you don't pull levers anymore. You push buttons, but you
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  Speaker 1: pull the lever. You push the button, you wait for
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  Speaker 1: the result in your hope.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know about it.
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  Speaker 1: This is why I'm so bad, because I really don't
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  Speaker 1: spending time at casino. Sometimes you get something really big,
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  Speaker 1: sometimes you get nothing, but you get it. You get
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  Speaker 1: these loot boxes, a lot of games like Roadblocks and
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  Speaker 1: in Fortnite, and even you sort of PlayStation games like FIFA,
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  Speaker 1: the soccer game, and then the last one that they
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  Speaker 1: were looking at, as I said, social casino games. So
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  Speaker 1: these are casino style games. Again, forgive my ignorance, but
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  Speaker 1: I don't spend time in casino. But things like the
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  Speaker 1: poker or not the poker, sorry poker, or the slots
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  Speaker 1: I got in the wrong spot the poker, poker or
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  Speaker 1: slots or roulette, and so you're playing for virtual money
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  Speaker 1: instead of real cash. So it's essentially it's role playing gambling.
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  Speaker 1: It's all the mechanics of real gambling. You've got the
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  Speaker 1: same like you said, kind of the flashing lights and
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  Speaker 1: all the sounds and the winds and the losses, but
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  Speaker 1: there's no real money changing hands. So it trains your
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  Speaker 1: brain to believe in and become acquainted with, and familiar
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  Speaker 1: with and enjoy the gambling patterns. It's just that there's
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: no financial risk. But again it's about normalizing the behavior.
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  Speaker 1: So they're the three things that they were looking.
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  Speaker 2: At, and what did they find.
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  Speaker 1: Really easy to summarize this, seventy five percent of kids
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  Speaker 1: aged ten to seventeen. Three quarters of our tween and
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  Speaker 1: teen children had interacted with gambling like elements in that
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  Speaker 1: twelve month period.
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  Speaker 2: So seventy percent.
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  Speaker 1: Seventy five So it's everywhere, seventy five percent, it's everywhere. Secondly,
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  Speaker 1: and again no surprises here, boys were way more exposed
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  Speaker 1: than girls. It was a like an eighty five versus
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: fifty five to sixty percent difference.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not surprised by that either. I look at
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  Speaker 2: the way you and I in the past have played
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  Speaker 2: a little candy crush, sagas or whatever they are, whatever
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  Speaker 2: the games we've played, you get really caught up in
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  Speaker 2: the reward system.
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  Speaker 1: I can't put it down.
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  Speaker 2: Whereas I get stuck on a level, and I might
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  Speaker 2: be stuck on that level for weeks because I just
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  Speaker 2: I don't care about the challenges or the.
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  Speaker 1: I'm just you just because you're bored.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just playing a kind of a bit of
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  Speaker 2: an outlet, whereas you get learned how the game were
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  Speaker 2: sucked in, and yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Where do I get the prizes? How many stars do
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  Speaker 1: I need for this?
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  Speaker 2: Close my mind? Just how invested you become in something.
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  Speaker 1: And so the rule, the decision we have made is
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  Speaker 1: that we just don't have the games on our phones anymore,
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  Speaker 1: because every time I download the game, you lose me
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  Speaker 1: for three or four weeks, and then I'm like, oh
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  Speaker 1: my goodness, it's happened again. I can't believe that with
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  Speaker 1: everything I know, it's still happened.
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  Speaker 2: Just the way our brains work so differently.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me go on. Sixty percent had gambled for
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  Speaker 1: real money, which is obviously illegal if you're under eighteen.
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  Speaker 1: But we're talking about eleven to seventeen year olds. Ten
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  Speaker 1: to seventeen year olds, so sixty percent of them had
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  Speaker 1: gambled for real money, mostly interestingly in Belgium, at least
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  Speaker 1: using scratch cards, but then betting with friends and sports
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  Speaker 1: and even participating in the lottery. Kids who were exposed
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  Speaker 1: to the gambling like elements in the first year were
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  Speaker 1: significantly more likely to gamble for real money in the
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  Speaker 1: second year. So basically the pathways as follows. Exposure shifts
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  Speaker 1: attitudes about gambling, which leads to an intention to gamble,
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  Speaker 1: which leads to actual gambling. And what's really interesting about
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  Speaker 1: this is that peer pressure was looked at as a
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  Speaker 1: covariate and it just wasn't that important. Attitudes matter way
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  Speaker 1: more than what peers are doing. It's what kids think
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  Speaker 1: about gambling that determines whether the old gamble way more
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  Speaker 1: than what their peers are doing. Interesting, So, if I'm
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  Speaker 1: looking at my friends and I've been raised in a
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  Speaker 1: home where my parents say, gambling for turkeys, this is
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  Speaker 1: not a wise thing to do. Why would you do it?
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  Speaker 1: It's literally the most foolish thing you can do with
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  Speaker 1: your money. And if I've endorsed that, and I've internalized
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  Speaker 1: that and integrated that into my identity, I'm just the
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  Speaker 1: person who doesn't gamble, even with the games flashing up
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  Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. When my peers are gambling
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  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go, oh, well, peer influence. I
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  Speaker 1: think I should have a flutter. I'm going to look
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  Speaker 1: at my friend and say, what are you doing that for?
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  Speaker 1: That's so dumb. But if I start to engage with
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  Speaker 1: these gambling like elements in my games, then holy how,
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  Speaker 1: I'm in trouble because that's going to start to change
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  Speaker 1: my attitude, which is then going to change my intention,
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  Speaker 1: which is predictive of the likelihood of me doing it.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, so Doctor's Desk is partly about you geeking out,
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  Speaker 2: but it's also about us giving the families and parents
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: in particular help. How do we help parents navigate this
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: space with their kids?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Three simple answers Right after the break, stay with us,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: We're back. This is the Happy Famili's podcast where you
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: get real parents every single day. Kylie, let me ask
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: you a question. What are we supposed to do? Because
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I think this is really important. The core message before
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: we talk about what to do is as follows. We're
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: not just talking about loop boxes. We're talking about all
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  Speaker 1: of these gambling like elements that are appearing more and
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  Speaker 1: more in our children's ecosystem online and unfortunately, they don't
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  Speaker 1: even have to be online. They can be on TV,
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  Speaker 1: you shop at a sports event. Gambling is everywhere. You
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  Speaker 1: listen to podcasts that there are literally hundreds of millions
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: of dollars that are being spent every single year in
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Australia to get the gambling message out there. These are
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: morality free, conscience free people. I just I cannot believe
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: that our government has been so feckless at a political
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: level that there is not better safeguarding and save a
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: guardrails around our kids in their gambling. The whole ecosystem
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  Speaker 1: is normalizing it and kids don't see it as gambling.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: They see it as part of the game. So what
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: a parents do A couple of really basic things. First off,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: you need to know what you can doing, actually understand
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: the mechanics, don't just know the game title. How many
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: parents who are listening to this right now know that
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Roadblocks hasipboxes and other gambling like elements. How many parents
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: listening right now know that Fortnite and FIFA have these
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: kinds of elements, and the list goes on. I think
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: that it's worth in your conversations with the kids making
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: the connection explicit. So literally say to them, this is
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: how poker machines work. If you're going to let the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: kids play games that do have these elements, it's important
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: that you talk to the kids about not just the elements,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: but also talk to them about limits on how they're
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: going to interact with the game. Certainly, let them know
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: that under no circumstance are you satisfied for them to
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  Speaker 1: be spending money because this is promoting and enabling gambling.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And just watch what they're watching, like know whether or
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: not they're watching streams of people playing these games. Have
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the conversation. Gambling companies design these to be addictive and
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: it is working.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I'm going hardcore. Just abolish, abolish.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Them all, delete the apps, throw the games in the bin.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Yep, done it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Problemly is then the kids go and do it at
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: their friend's houses. Are the conversations you know this? We
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: have these conversations every Sunday.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: I actually don't have a problem with them going to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: their friends and having a game on the computer.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: But if they're sitting there watching streams of people gambling,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: if they're playing virtual pokeys but for fake money rather
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: than real money, if they're engaging in casino style games,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: are you okay with that? Like you No?
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: No? Not at all. But I'm just I'm saying I
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: would much prefer my daughter to go and spend a
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: couple of hours at a friend's place and play a
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: video game with her friend, then have it in my
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: home where she has access to it whenever she wants.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: The conversation still counts. What are they going to do
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: while they're at that person's house.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: You could say that about anything.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: That's why parenting matters. That's why we do this podcast,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: all right. Bottom line, The gateway to gambling is real,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and often it is through the pathway of gaming. Exposure
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: to gambling is going to change how you can think
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: about gambling, and that is going to be the biggest
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: predictor of whether they do or not. Once they think
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: that gambling is either fun or normal, or profitable or
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: an indicator of their skill, their special talent, their ability,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the step to actually doing the real gambling is just
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: so tiny. It's so easy for them to make that
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: next step. We can't control the industry. We can control
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: what happens in our own homes, and Kylie, we can
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: control the conversation we have with our kids when they're
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: going to other people's homes well.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Since we try not to helicopter parent in this house,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I think that might be a good place to start.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: We will link to the research article in the show
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: notes for today's episode. The Happy Famili's podcast is produced
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: by Justin Rulin from Bridge Media and them Habits provides research,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: admin and additional support. If you'd like more info to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: make your family happier or to keep your kids out
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: of gambling, you might want to check out my brand
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: new book. It's called Boys, Raising Strong Young Men from
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: the Inside Out. You can pre order it now a
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: book topia dot com dot a U or visit happy
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: families dot com that I used to join the whitelist.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: M hmm.