Latest / Skin Anarchy / Sophia Panych, Editorial Content Director, POPSUGAR UK

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Sophia Panych, Editorial Content Director, POPSUGAR UK · Skin Anarchy

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is your host, Ekta, and today I have with me Sophia Panich, who is the editorial content director for Pop Sugar UK.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the show, Sophia.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited you had time.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's my pleasure.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to get started as I always do.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know all about your career and your journey in editorial and how you really um, you know, picked that as your career and got to where you are now.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm gonna try and make this as concise as possible.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um it meanders a bit.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I didn't know I wanted to work in editorial.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't know it was a job.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my dad was actually a newspaper journalist, so I knew what a journalist was.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know there were journalists that did fashion and beauty.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I moved to New York City.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I went there for college, but I had been a ballet dancer, and that was my plan.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I planned to go to school for a year or two, get to New York and find a dance job and quit.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was the plan.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was working at a ballet studio uh uptown, and I've had uh injuries that have plagued me since I was a teenager.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it just started to I just started to realize that I wasn't gonna be able to dance ballet in the way that I wanted to professionally.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I realized that I needed to make uh I needed to figure out what I was gonna do.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I did, I I actually have continued dancing my whole life, just not professionally.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that's so that's so cool though, that ballet was the first love.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it did eventually inform my career.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can I'll get to that.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: But so I I was at NYU, I chose art history, I felt it was in the arts, I felt it was, you know, I love history, I love art, I love writing.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of all three things combined.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what I would do with it, I just chose it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love that.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And in the meantime, I was waitressing, I was working at the dance studio, I was it's so I graduate college, and I had had this friend who I'd known all through NYU who was like she had interned everywhere.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: She'd interned L, Vogue, Harper's, Brides, and she ended up at Glamour in the US.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um, she knew I was interested in fashion and beauty.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I I loved fashion and beauty my whole life.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I used to spend hours on style.com just looking at the shows when we first got a computer in our house.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I clicked through the shows.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I knew that I loved it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just, you know, I didn't know you could work, I didn't know even how to attempt to work there.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: But she had been interning at magazines and after college, um, she was like, you know, I I I know you you kind of want to work at you said you might want to work in magazines, but I know this fragrance company that needs a PR assistant, and I think you'd be great.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, sure.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a PR assistant is, but I'm gonna do it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I what is a PR assistant?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, in that position, it ended up being basically everyone's assistant plus some PR, but um, it was really helping the director um print out press releases, reach out to contacts at magazines.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really my first experience with magazine editors and and being like, oh, there's people that work there that you pick.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like this is a real career.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and so then the director quit and I was all by myself.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was 22, running PR that I knew nothing about.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't go to school for it.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I realized that I needed to be in something more creative as a dancer, as you know, it just it wasn't an artist.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're an artist at heart, so yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so luckily, glamour had an opening and um in their beauty closet uh for a freelance assistant.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't care what the pay was, I didn't care what it entailed.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm doing it, I don't care.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was a four-day a week job.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think I got paid$75 a day.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I was teaching dance on the side while working at Glamour, and I was in the beauty closet, and that was really that was my way in.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was my training, that was my internship, that was everything.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it really gave me, I was working under this amazing beauty director named Felicia Malevich, who was in the industry for decades, and I learned the ins and out of what it took to work in a magazine, all the different bits and pieces.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: I learned, I basically sat in the beauty closet all day and called in product.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I just be I just you know, I would organize the products, I would call them in, I would do the the credit sheets for the magazine, and and I became I was like the library in my brain of beauty products.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm really I love this.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is a dream job.
• 5:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, but yeah, so I was only I was working four days a week, I was dancing, like I would be doing shows in the Midwest, and then we would drive through the night and drop me off at the beauty closet.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was asleep in the beauty closet and like on a Monday morning, like freshen up and then go to work.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so after so I've been there for hard work, but seriously, that's amazing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and so after that, um, I knew that I needed, you know, I wasn't doing much writing at all.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was really just in the closet hanging out with beauty products, and so um I had you know, sell a couple of magazines had opened up assistants and Allure opened up an assistant position and I immediately went for it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd been I'd went for a couple and been rejected, and so I was like, oh gosh, I really hope I get this.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't have any writing samples, I had to give them a college essay on like a flooded a flooded historical site in Turkey because I was just like, I just need you to see that I can write.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, I got the job, the assistant job to the beauty director at Allure.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had I stayed there then for the next 10 years.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um wow.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you found home.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I found home.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I really did find home.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I started out as an assistant on the print side.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I then moved up and I was the editor that went to Milan and Paris every fashion week.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I did backstage at Fashion Week for for seven years.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um how is that by the way?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've always wondered, like, this is such a cheesy question.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've always wondered like what it would be like to be backstage at the at you know, like, you know, big fashion week shows and stuff.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So how was that when you first did that?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was absolutely terrifying when I my first show backstage was in Milan with Pat McGrath at Gucci.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I never met Pat.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew her.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: She was like a superstar to me.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm obsessed with Pat.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm you know, you're stuffed in this room.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're so everybody, it just was it, it was terrifying, but it in the and it it's just one of the coolest things.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a dancer, I appreciated it because backstage felt like backstage to me.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I it felt like home, um, getting ready for something, hair and makeup.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's incredibly stressful um because you know, people are running around, sometimes they're getting ready in 10 minutes before the show, and you're trying to get quotes and it's it's a lot, but and and you know, we would be exhausted by the end.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also just one of the coolest experiences.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the information that you would get from makeup artists and hairstylists um about all the products they use, whether it's the skin they're prepping the face with or the hairspray they're spraying the style with, like you just you got in val, I had invaluable insight to what professionals use and how they work.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I bet.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's such a unique position to be in.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I've always um wondered that too about editorial is that you know, you you see so much and you see so many products, and you, you know, with and makeup artists that are using those products.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: I always wonder, um, you know, someone in your position, like, do you ever wonder, like, you know, I know exactly what's wrong with this industry, and I'm just gonna make my own thing.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Has that ever crossed your mind?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I I have not thought about making my own thing simply because I don't have any reason to at this point.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have anything that I think I could bring to the table quite yet.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think I think what I learned backstage is the difference between the products that people really use and the sponsored shows and and things like that, and and um what makes a good product great.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: So how I have a question, Sophia.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm really curious, like when it comes to backstage or anything really, any event um that you know, editorial from the editorial side that you're involved in, um, what how are makeup artists and all of like that team like picked for shows like you know what I mean?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how does that work?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so each makeup artist's lead, Pat McGrath, um, you know, Diane Kendall, they have their core team that they work with all year round, or that, or if they don't work with all of them all year round, they work with them for the shows every season.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's their core, I think, yeah, they you always they're always with them.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then there are artists who go to the cities that go to New York, London, Milan, and Paris, and they fund themselves.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they will hope to get on Teams.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, people need um more, you know, more bodies, um, as they always do, because sometimes the shows are 60 models and you only understand core 15.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um those are for, and then you also have if a if a show is sponsored, um, so say Mac is sponsoring a show or NARS is sponsoring a show, they have their own team of artists.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the head makeup artist, like Dieton Kendall, for instance, who works with NARS quite a bit, and Mac, um, she has her core assistance, but then NARS or Mac would supply their team of artists around 15%.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a there's a couple different ways it works, but those are the kind of three three ways I've seen it go.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know I interrupted you.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um you were like, Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: But um, no, I actually yeah, I'd always wondered.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, for me, the editorial world has always been like a gray area.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong, I've always been inspired by you know magazines and I and I love them and I love the writing and the journalism that's there, but it's always for me felt like this world that no one could ever see inside of, you know what I mean?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: So like that's uh my goal here at Skincare Anarchy is just to show a little peek.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to tell us, like um, you know, as an editorial director, like what do you deal with on a day-to-day basis?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are some of the projects that you have to, you know, handle versus other editors?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I'm it's I'm managing a team of editors.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did it at Allure and now I'm doing it at Pop Sugar.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you're kind of like a conductor conducting an orchestra in a way.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're you're you are, you know, making sure that everybody is creating the stories, um, you know, working on their stories, and these stories are all they're both addressing the news of the day.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're working, we're I'm talking digital.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're covering the news that's happening, but then we're also creating the stories that um are part of our content strategy overall.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and making sure that they're on, you know, they're on top of that, that I'm contributing as well, I'm writing myself, um, but then I'm editing all of them to make sure that it aligns with tone, the tone and the voice of the site.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we're working, I'm working through their headlines and and things like that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also just overseeing the market um in terms of beauty specifically.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, the other editors do that, but I I'm also out in the market, out on my computer these days, um, meeting with brands and and working on stories, yeah.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a very condensed way to put what I do in a day.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: But um Right.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I mean, it's interesting though.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to me because I wonder, um, you know what I mean, like the the hierarchy of editorial, because I know there's writers and editors, and then um, you know, obviously you're a director, and um, I always wonder how the roles really mesh together.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I do have a random question.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever had uh a writer or an editor that you've been working with and they've just flat out been like, you know what, I don't like the story.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, I can't write about this.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have you had to deal with that?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how do how does that work?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you just have somebody that refuses, they're like, No, I'm not doing this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it depends on why they're refusing.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, sometimes a story just ends up not being good.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we thought it it not not being good, but sometimes the story changes as you report it, as you start writing it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so those are the conversations that I have um on a daily basis because stories will transform um sometimes.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, if it's just not working out, um it'll be dropped, or we'll figure out ways to fix it.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then there's sometimes stories that people don't feel comfortable writing.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's obviously something I want to respect.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody doesn't feel comfortable, I'm I'm I would never want them to write something.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, of course, yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm actually I I ask that because you know, in my past interviews, I've you know, I've kind of done like a little bit of questioning on the on the end of like, well, who's writing the content?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: For example, like if there's a new hair product out that works really well for black women or you know, Asian women or whatever, like you know, who gets assigned these stories and how does that whole process work?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's that's where I was I get so confused because I I know I had um, for example, Kayla Greaves on, and Kayla was telling us about how you know a lot of times um if there's a story coming out about a product or a brand that's really catered towards black women and men, it's like four black writers in the whole you know industry and they just get all of the work.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm really curious about that too from your end as a director.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you're distributing work, like is that something that comes up um for you or is that something you have to deal with as well?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, and and it's you know, we want to be my whole goal and my team's whole goal is to make sure that our content is super representative and super inclusive of the beauty market as a whole, and that we are talking about products um that any person can use, regardless of their hair, how their hair looks or their the their complexion, so um, or their skin type or anything.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, I never force a review on any of my writers.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's good.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's often a conversation.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll, you know, we'll talk about the brands that have launched.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll, you know, oftentimes people will suggest or oftentimes the writers will jump on and be like, you know what, I I really want to write this.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I'll often just ask.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I also, you know, we're I think one thing to to clarify is that my team in the UK is very small.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I have three editors, and then it's myself.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we are editorial teams, so we don't have, you know, I'm already dealing with just, you know, bandwidth in terms of writing about all the stuff we want to want to write about.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um also employing a big group of really amazing freelance writers to help with that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because also I think with beauty, I think my big thing is, you know, on these sites when you've got your three, four beauty editors, um, yeah, it's great that they give amazing reviews, but I think I also want to make sure that we're getting more voices in, just in regardless of anything.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, you know, different people.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh I have a really great group of um freelance writers in the UK who are always pitching me reviews and products to write up.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um I honestly in the past two years haven't felt like I'm at a real loss um in terms of like, or I haven't felt like I've had a hard time getting people to cover products because I also think we're just our team is so invigorated in wanting to make our content really representative of the UK, um, that we're excited when there's new brands that come out and new launches, especially smaller brands here in the UK, which I think sometimes have a harder time breaking through.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we really like to champion them.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if that's a good question.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, it does, no, it does.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, honestly, I'm so glad you brought up freelancing because that was one of the questions I had for you was that, you know, do you work with a lot of freelance writers?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, just through this journey of the podcast, I've met so many amazing um writers and they often tell me, yeah, like, you know, yeah, I freelance, you know, part-time, and I've never understood where that, you know, piece of the puzzle really fits in.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I actually have a question for you, um, very specific to UK beauty brands.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how do you, how do you feel about the the skincare industry scene um in the UK as compared to what you might see come out here in the US?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know here we we've got, you know, I think this is global, but you know, there's this huge saturation of the market.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like it's just like one brand after another.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, like in terms of like sorting through and really finding that new great product or new great brand, um, what are some of the steps that you have to take or some of the things you have to deal with?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, that was a huge I was not ex I knew that the markets differed when I moved two years ago to London.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was not expecting there to be such a difference um in terms of launch date, in terms of formulation, in terms of even sometimes product name differs.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the same product, it has a different name.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was really thrown for a loop when I first moved because I was trying to wrap my head around what products have I seen that are here and what hasn't.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and um, so it's very interesting.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's been a real eye-opener.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um I feel like I actually have great understanding now of even more of the US side because of seeing the differences between the two markets, but it's equally as saturated here in the UK.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, you know, absolutely like completely.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe not as saturated as the US.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right in terms of the amount of new brands that are launching.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think yeah, it it so it is we are still going through lots of product each month.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, because here it's like every day there's a new brand, I feel like.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like I would say there's less new brands than in the US, but it's still quite a bit, you know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and the other thing is we're seeing Boots here is doing a huge push.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they have been for the past two years basically, to grow their beauty shelves.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so to do that, they've brought in a ton of new brands.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, Huda came in and and um what we Sunbum they recently brought in.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I'm just scratching the surface of what they've what Boots has um started selling.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's all a lot of these American brands that haven't been in the UK yet.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so by doing that, it's definitely brought more into the market.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it feels like it's gone up recently in the past six months.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, honestly though, Sophia, like this is getting crazy, right?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like every every day, like I swear, like I see a new brand, and I'm that's why I asked him like, is it the same over there?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because here it's like almost hard to keep up like every day.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and we do an every month we do uh you know stories on new products that have launched in the in the galleries are just getting bigger and bigger to the point where we're gonna have to figure out like how to you know eventually it's gonna be very hard to write about everything.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I'm I'm curious how this industry is gonna like turn.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: But my next question honestly is about um more about the standards in the EU as compared to America.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know that you know, talking to some brands, um, they've definitely brought up the idea that you know the list for, for example, clean beauty is extremely more, you know, it's more um, you know, strict.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot more, you know, things on that list in the EU versus them, you know, here the states.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So when you work with brands, especially with skincare, um, is it like what what is that like the formulation component that you have to kind of like um deal with?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you just ask them about their formula or like do they go into depth about any other tests or you know, hurdles they have to jump through to be able to make their product in, you know, in the UK or anything like that?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've I I've talked to a lot of um brand founders, both in skincare and and in makeup, um actually, who have told me the processes of bringing their brand to the UK and the EU.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, I uh it is not easy.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um it goes down, it's everything, it's every bit of the product.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the labeling, it's making sure the labeling is is up to up to standards because it's different.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um every, you know, having the formulas tested and and um sh, you know, it's just it's it's sound, it's a huge investment.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know for small brands to expand uh internationally is really difficult because there's a huge cost that's associated with getting your formulations tested and um in the UK, even after they've been after they've been approved in the US.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and in some cases with thing, you know, I think the most famous example is the Sunday Riley um good genes.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um that that formulation had to change because it's not just the it's not just the clean, it's not just the I don't, it's not just the ingredients that are banned, it's sometimes the percentages of the ingredients.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you're not allowed to have certain alpha hydroxy acids at a certain percentage level here.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, EU and UK.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's why good genes is actually a different formula in the UK than it is in the US.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, I know the ordinary had something, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of their masks is like really like potent.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's like 30% AHA BHA, and like you're not allowed to like even have it in certain countries.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, they they restrict the amount of AHA, I know for sure.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and then I and I mean then in terms of the over-the-counter, um, you know, I think there's benzoyl peroxide, I believe, is not available over here for over-the-counter.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be by um prescription.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a new new thing that I had to um get used to because a lot of the spot treatments that we're used to.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like all like, I mean, cleaning clear doesn't isn't sold here, but a lot of that clean and clear stuff wouldn't be able to be sold here.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the pharmacies are totally different too in the UK.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know I was there for one of my um rotations, and I whenever I visited, like I go into a pharmacy and I'm like, I don't even know if I can find what I need here because I know that so much is not on the shelves as compared to like Walgreens, you know what I mean, right down the road.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so interesting um in terms of beauty, because this for me, you would think it would change the market, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like you would think it would make it less saturated.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, clearly, as we just talked about, you know, it's still a problem there as well.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's you know, the brands, especially the heritage brands, like the PNGs and the Unilevers, like they've been here for so long that they it's you know, they're running too.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I found that in L'Oreal, like they're running the products are are are can be quite different.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it feels like they're they've got different strategies for different markets to be uh it from a perspective of somebody who was in the US and then came from the UK or came to the UK.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So right, right.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now I I want to ask you a little bit about like initiatives that brands get behind in the UK as compared to here.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I it doesn't even have to be in comparison, but like some of the I know a lot of times, you know, the feedback I've gotten from editors is like they will look for a brand and really look for the story of that brand.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if they, you know, vibe with it, and if the if that brand is standing for something that they believe in or that they think is a good cause.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: So from that standpoint, um, what are some of the initiatives that you've seen that brands get behind in the UK?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know that, you know, here like sustainability is huge, but also political issues come in in the US a lot, I feel like.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: So like I'm curious from that standpoint, you know, like what are some of the causes and initiatives?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, sustainability is is the it's huge here.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is they have been talking about sustainability years before the US.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, when I got here, there were, you know, wipes have been banned from, you know, self for just doesn't sell wipes anymore.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think hard, you know, a lot of these retailers were like, no more wipes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so many brands here are talking about sustainability.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is hard.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if they're not talking about sustainability, it's it's hard to get on board with them here in the UK, I think.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um in every event that I have attended in the past six months, brands are have either repackaged or in the process of repackaging or talking about their, you know, five-year plan on how to become more sustainable.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if in the UK and in the EU, it's it's almost less of an initiative to get behind, and it is just what it has to be.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's just, you know, a lot of beauty editors here won't write about you if you're not sustainable.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we won't cover wipes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just not something we'll do, um, or sheet masks that are not biodegradable.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So um in terms of political uh initiatives, there definitely is not the same.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see, I have not seen a ton of initi political initiatives that brands will be getting behind.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Awareness women's health, gynecological issues, um, breast cancer awareness, those things um they really get behind, which is awesome.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's just kind of like universal as well, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's those are very universal um you know areas.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's good.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I don't see as many brands mixing beauty with politics here as I do in the US for sure.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's really what I wanted to ask.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, because for me, I I don't know what your opinion about it is, but for me, it's almost as if it's like an easy way to sell their products.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I see it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I always get it's almost like cringy for me because it's like, you know, just because something is going on doesn't mean that you have to put in your pitch for your you know, your line now.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, yeah, I know I I completely agree with what you're saying.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think that's why I think um, you know, in terms of women's issues and bringing attention to it, and I think I can get behind that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you know, if they're gonna be donating portions and you always have to look into, you know, what are they actually donating, how much.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I yeah, I I don't, I it does often feel like we're riding this issue to sell product.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, yeah.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like you say it feels icky.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I actually want to um I I want to ask you, uh, you know, per from a personal perspective, like when you look for a brand that you really end up liking, what are some of the things?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, have you noticed that you gravitate more towards like certain types of brands or companies, or is it kind of very random for you when you discover something you really like?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm I'm guessing, you know, it's very difficult because you you get somebody product, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think when we're talking about skincare, um from a personal perspective, I mean when when even just to cover, um, you know, I'm looking at, I know this you've heard this millions of times, and it's getting to the point where it doesn't mean much, but does the brand feel authentic?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Does it feel like it's believes in what it's doing, or is it hopping on a trend just to sell products?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So is it jumping on the CBD trend just to sell a lot of new bombs and tinctures and things like that or serums?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So does it is there a reason that it this brand exists and is it fulfilling a reason?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for me, almost more than anything, is the formulations and the testing behind the formulations.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my years at Allure, like the way we vetted product was like no other.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when, you know, we gave things skincare a best of beauty award or a breakthrough award, like we combed through the research.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something that even though I'm not there anymore, I apply to how I look at product.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And allure really is that, you know, like standard, I think, in beauty for a lot of people who don't know much about editorial.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: We look at allure like the holy, you know what I mean?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like everything.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I like that you have that background that you're able to bring it to a new publication.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, was that was that difficult or that transition?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or I mean, does anybody ever give you any kind of like fight back when you have like old methodologies that you like to employ, or you know, I you know what I'm trying to say, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like just in general, like your approach.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I think um, you know, I think sometimes it's I think sometimes I like to see more reporting and um no, no, no, that's not what I want to say.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think for me, um it's just changing the way you work, um, in understanding that like anytime you're gonna write about skincare, you need to get an expert voice in there.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's just necessary.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we're beauty editors, we're experts in a way, but we're not doctors and we're not scientists.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I almost feel, yeah, I like I I tend to, you know, if I'm talking about a new product, oh, this launched, that's fine.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, you know, I can write without an expert.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're gonna do a review or we're gonna do a story about a product trend or an ingredient trend, there has to be doctors and scientific voices in those pieces.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as you work that into your workflow as an editor, as a writer, it doesn't really change, you know, it it's just something you need to start practicing.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've never felt any pushback.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just getting used to working in that way.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and just kind of telling yourself, yeah, if if I'm gonna write about skincare, I need to have, I need to look into this because it's important because you're telling people what to put on their face.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a medical issue, you know, it's like absolutely 100% agree with everything you said.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I actually have a follow-up question about that because I've always wondered how um editorial teams work with dermatologists.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know that um oftentimes there's like a quote in an article from a dermatologist, like, you know, a celebrity derm or something like that.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm I'm more curious about the back um the backstage like you know process of when you basically call a dermatologist, like what are you asking them?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Are you basically saying, hey, here's a product, tell me if you like it, or is it like more pinpointed questions, you know, in terms of the research that you're doing?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it's usually way more pinpointed.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, if I'm reviewing a product, sometimes I'll ask them about ingredient, you know, I you don't a lot of dermatologists aren't gonna recommend a whole lot, you know, they have the stuff that they like and they recommend.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um I, you know, oftentimes if you're showing them a product from a brand that they're not familiar with, you're not gonna recommend it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's more about asking them, you know, what what so there's glycerin mixed with hyaluronic acid and ceramides in this formula.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you think, what does that benefit?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: What does that do?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um why is that a good thing?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or you know, having them sometimes you do have them look at the research.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those are for much bigger stories, but getting their input in into what they're seeing.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and yeah, if if it's about um an ingredient trend or a procedure or you know, anything or about, yeah, it then we'll ask more pointed questions on what we want to know.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we do a lot of um pieces that look at advice for skincare.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you treat eczema and how or um you know, should you be wearing antioxidants inside?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously we're talking, we're asking them those specific questions.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um rarely do we just send them a product and say, what do you think of this?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um this probably, you know, not the best approach.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, I found, you know, derms have their, they have the brands that they trust, and and it's why you should pay attention to those brands and know what they are.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and also use them in your stories if you're talking about products, the moisturizers for dry skin and things like that.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: But absolutely.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I agree.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, you know, one of the things I've always wondered about skincare, I'm not gonna lie, is like I feel like in terms of like the medicine side of it, um, I think plastic surgery got this terrible like reputation.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like skincare became this like replacement for in the consumer market, if you know what I mean.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I feel like it almost made people feel a little bit better, you know, about oh, well, I'm still getting something done, but it's not plastic surgery.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I always wonder um with editors working with dermatologists, like what happens or you know, derms and plastic surgeons, because it's such a unique space, right?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like for from a medical standpoint, like you you don't know if everything works.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if it works, I don't think dermatologists know either.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I wonder.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because the research just isn't out there, you know.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So to make any claims, like it must be so difficult, right?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like to get quotes and to get information out of them, because I I'm guessing a lot of them are like, I don't know.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean research.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's why, like, yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you can add, I mean, that's where the it comes in really helpful is if you want to know the background behind an ingredient, a trendy ingredient ingredient, um, say something like watermelon extract that everybody's using, you know, going to a germ and saying a couple of your derms that you've got on your speed speed email, speed dial, um, and ask them, you know, what's what is the research available?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's always really helpful.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, because you're not trained on like watermelon extract, and you know what I mean, medical school or like P ⁇ E or like, you know, all these crazy ingredients.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like we, as you know, in medicine, we don't learn about those things specifically.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I always I I think like, you know, with magazines and and publications, I always wonder this is that, you know, I it's one thing to consult dermatologists, but even then, like, how much information are we all really able to get?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's just not out there, you know, the research isn't out there.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's picking specialists that, you know, if if you're talking about things like scalp psoriasis, finding a derm that really has done a lot of research in scalp issues and hair, you know, skin and hair.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so picking your dermatologist based on what you know that they've studied in the past or where their research, you know, where their research has been and and in their practicing specialty is always one way to attack it.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, another helpful thing is with talking about ingredients is that they can, you know, they have access, you know, we can look on JSTOR and and these uh, you know, the where what is it, the like research where you can look at all the papers, research papers.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, PubMed.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: You mean PubMed?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: PubMed and things like that.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes we don't have access to them if you don't have an account and they do.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they can often look back and be like, well, you know what?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: This study in that was done in 2015, you know, they found out this, and they can sometimes interpret what's really helpful is they can sometimes interpret those studies in a way that we can then report on to the general public that makes sense.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: That right, you know, that was one of the hardest things that Alora was working on translating skin care, and it's still it not just a Laura, Pop Sugar too, but was translating difficult studies or difficult procedures, plastic surgery you were speaking about, and doing it in a way that made sense to somebody that is not a beauty editor or a beauty expert.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, no, I can imagine, I can imagine how difficult that must be.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know, like when I first started off as an influencer, I was just an influencer on on Instagram, and um, you know, I wrote a couple of pieces that were like mini reviews, you know what I mean?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would go into PubMed and like look up like four articles on collagen and then try to summarize like the information I found and the data.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just I remember at that, you know, at that time thinking, man, it must be so hard for editors and writers because this is just so tedious, you know, like it's such a long process.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So tricky.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: I want to actually um I want to shift gears a little bit and I want to ask you what is in your beauty drawers right now that you are loving.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you can share that with us.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I'm sitting at my beauty drawer, so that is kind of easy.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you you want to know skin particularly?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it would be great to have some skincare, some beauty, you know, makeup too.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're open to everything here.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so skincare wise, I made a little list because I didn't want to forget because it's one of the worst things beauty editors are always asked what they like, and then your brain goes completely blank.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I feel with my friends all the time.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am really into, and I'm so glad it's available uh in the UK via Cult Beauty, is Ron Robinson's brand, Beautystat.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the moisturizer is just beyond it's saved.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: My skin got so much drier when I moved to the UK.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it went from being like an oily, shiny grease pit in New York to an arid desert in the UK.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I've just it's been like moisturizer up the wazoo.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um love that.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually gonna be interviewing Roland.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he's somebody as a cosmetic chemist that you know we used to interview all the time for stories.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always it's awesome that he's created his own brand and it's doing so well.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: I what else, man?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very into the new BioEffect hydrating cream.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's I like?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I like BioEffect as a brand.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's an Icelandic brand.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I they they have really great research behind their um synthetic growth factor that they use.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's grown in Iceland um from barley.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: My boyfriend's Icelandic, so I feel like that's part of the reason, but it's also just a really great product.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but no, it's they they they came out with a new moisturizing cream and it's just absolutely phenomenal.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm gonna have to check them out.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard of their brand, but I it sounds great.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they're great, they're absolutely great.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and let's see what else.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Hero anti-inflammaging serum.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am very into that serum because of the science that was behind it.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was created by two um scientists that were working on inflammation of the joints.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um at the increased um, so looking at inflammation and how it was attacking joints and causing early onset arthritis.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, what they realized is that they could apply, I think they were talking to somebody and they realized that they could apply that to the inflammation of the skin.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so they figured out where on the stem cell, I think it is.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I'm I'm probably messing up, but I get it.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's the science is hard to they they figured out where um they could in initiate the healing process to stop, you know, to slow down.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought it was really anything that comes from, you know, there's so many good things in beauty that have come from the medical field that was something totally different and now is used in skincare or hair care or whatever.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then um I haven't tried it yet, but I'm very excited for Codex's new launch.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know Codex at the brand.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do know of them, but they have a new launch.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's in the UK.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe this is an instance where it's in the UK first.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen very often.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's called Antu, and it's all about the microbiome.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she was um the lead scientist behind it.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she was telling us at the event about how they went to an organization that is now looking, it tests your products.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a company or a brand, it tests your products on how they actually affect the microbiome.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's one thing that oh wow, that's really cool.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think one of and we kind of addressed this earlier, but you know, there's microbiome is huge and trending.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I think it is it, I think it's one of the most important things in skincare that we've started talking about.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah, brands also yeah, there's also just not enough research on a lot of these products that have come out.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: So So I feel like having a way to measure if these products are actually in fact feeding the microbiome or helping it in any way is really important because again, I just think a lot of brands were jumping on the trend and saying, okay, this is for your microbiome, but I don't know if there's enough research there for these products to be informed.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I will I will tell you this.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: My father dedicated his life to research.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he's a PhD, and one of his specialties was the microbiome, the gut microbiome.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I actually talked to him, I asked him the same question that we're talking about because I was like, Dad, you know, I keep seeing a lot of brands coming out about the, you know, with the focus on microbiome.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he's he's very like he's on board, but he's also very skeptical because he's like, you know, all about the gut microbiome.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious to see where this goes, you know, the the trend in skincare.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Same.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of it is so integrally tied to the gut.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think I think they are so interconnected.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I well, I do think that there is something important about it being on the microbiome on the skin.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know if, like I said, if there's enough information out there for us to be creating products to treat it at this point.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, I'm I'm excited to try the launch and and see what it's like.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I really just I'm so into that brand in terms of I really think they put, you know, every single part of that brand is thought out and with sustainability in mind.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're really somebody who's getting sustainability right across every, you know, I love that.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: They've they're actually on my on my list.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Codex is on my list of like bucket list brands I really would love to interview.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, like yeah, yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, you could talk to the the founder for hours about every like it's so interesting.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I bet.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, Sophia, this was amazing.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: You are so fun to talk to, and I'm so thankful for your time and your insight.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I every time I get to talk to an editor, I just feel like I've learned a lot more.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I thank you so much.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone out there, um, I hope you enjoyed this episode.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: If you have any questions for me or Sophia, please leave them in the concept art, like the comment section, and we will definitely pass them along to her.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, give us a thumbs up or a rating on Spotify, iTunes, Google, Podcast, wherever it is that you find us and let us know how we're doing.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Sophia.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 46:36
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