Latest / High Five Hot Mess Podcast / High Five Hot Mess| Help! I Need an Adult: What Does a Death Doula Do?
Transcript
- Lisa: So when my dad died, my mom kind of shut down a little bit. And then a few months later, she got sick herself. And all of us, still drowning in grief, had to make some big decisions about where she was gonna go, what was gonna happen to her house. We decided to move her in with us, and that meant we had to clean out my parents' house. going through that house together as a family with my siblings, my sister-in-laws, we found cans of Chef Boy RD from 1980. pictures of relatives that none of us knew, and And clothes that my mom literally had not worn since probably 1970, right? So, but here's the thing: it wasn't the house that we were attached to. It was their stuff that made them them. you know, my dad's favorite tracksuit, my mom's handwritten recipe book, you know, that she'd had since, you know, her early teens, the little things that made them them. So we had three piles donate, trash, and us, meaning the siblings wanted to keep it. We were racing against the clock because we knew we all had to go back to work. My mom didn't want to be involved. And honestly, none of us were really, you know, thinking that clearly, right? So we finished. And we all kind of said, okay, great, we're going our separate ways and we packed up and went home. But the cost of what we lost that weekend, I don't think can really be measured. My my mom passed just 11 months later, and we realized that we had thrown away her entire Christmas ornament collection. That was a lifetime of precious things that she had spent collecting that we just gave away to goodwill. We didn't keep my dad's favorite hat that he wore in every picture our entire lives. We didn't keep his key ring. Because none of us really knew what to do with it, right? And so over the last 16 years, we've continued to discover things we wish we'd save. I think what it boils down to is we made permanent decisions while we were temporarily, absolutely incapable of thinking clearly. Grief doesn't just break your heart, you guys. It hijacks your judgment. Every person in that room was swimming around in grief. We were under this heavy fog. Nobody was thinking clearly. Every one of us was heartbroken. Every one of us was exhausted. Every one of us was just trying to survive the weekend, this event. What we needed was someone who was not attached. We needed somebody who could stand back with perspective. That didn't, you know, wasn't swimming around in this grief with us and say, you know what, you might not know what to do with this today, but five years from now, you're gonna really wish that you had it. Lisa started talking to me about her life jacket person. So this person that was unattached, that was helping her handle all of these things in her family's life with this thing that's going on. And she said two words I had never heard: Death Doula. And I was like, wait a minute, there's someone that will help us get through this without it having to just be us. And that answer is yes. So we went and found an adult. Our adult in the room today is Tracy Arielli. She is an end-of-life doula, educator, grief coach, and founder of Comforting Closure. She helps families navigate aging, serious illness, dying, and grief with compassion and practical support. You may not know what a death doula is right now, but by the end of this episode, you're gonna be like, How do I find one? So you guys. Let's get into it. Lisa Wilson: Okay, so nobody really teaches us how to transition from living to dying. And even though we may see it over and over, every single time that happens, it's, you know, it's it's different and unique for your relationship with that individual. Lisa Smith: Hmm. Lisa Wilson: so we have Tracy, who is a death doula. Tracy, like your background and and what you do now are kind of contradictory, right? So you were in tech and now you are death doula. Can you walk us through your origin story a little bit? Lisa Smith: You done. Traci Arieli: well I was in tech for over 25 years. but before that, I actually went to school for psychology and and of course going through school and the first couple jobs out of of college were very focused on on helping people. And then I got into tech. I wanted to move to the Bay Area and it was great and I loved my career in tech. I was a program manager, would not have traded it for anything. During that time. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: I had a cousin who died of suicide. And I saw how my family grieved or or didn't grieve. We we didn't do that well as no one does that really well. and then our community also didn't do it well. and I knew that I wanted to do something about that to help people, and so I hit 50 and I said, if not now, when? Lisa Smith: Hmm. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: So that was my jump into the end of life space. I actually have an aunt in Arizona who does this. I'd never heard of an end-of-life doula or death doula. And she just through her, I I found out about this job or this career, I should say, and I decided to transition into it. Lisa Wilson: I'm gonna start us with the basics. So just so that you know, Lisa and I, the reason we started this Help I Need an Adult series is because we need an adult. Like there are all of our friends are having these different things that are happening to them that you know, we're all talking to each other in kind of like a really sad book club environment, and none of us have the answers to what we're looking for. I talked to three of my really close friends that aren't really having any of these experiences, but none of them had ever heard of a death doula. What is a death doula? And specifically, what kind of death doula are you? Traci Arieli: So a death dueler or end of life dueler is a person that helps families through their loved ones dying phase. So we do a lot of education. We help families and individuals prep or prepare for their eventual death. And this could be from, you know, this could be with a person who is terminally ill at this point, maybe in the last few months of their life. Sometimes I get. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: A call from people who are their loved one is actively dying or has only a couple more weeks to go. So it is really the timing is less important than what's actually happening. and so we do everything from, as I said, working with families to prepare, helping them with their advanced directives through the dying process, that dying journey. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: and even after with grief work. Specific I run the whole gamut. most of my clients, I'm very fortunate, I build a relationship with well before they're, you know, they're actively dying, when they're just becoming prepared. I have a lot of Gen Xers whose parents are older and have called me to work with their parents also. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: So then I have a lot of clients who I do grief work with. Lisa Smith: So nice. So Tracy, can you tell us a little bit about what makes a death doula different than hospice? Traci Arieli: We actually work alongside hospice. Lisa Smith: Is it in tandem or is it one or the other? Traci Arieli: It is in tandem. I would if a person is actively dying, I would recommend them being in hospice. I'm a very big advocate of hospice. I always tell people because people are very afraid of hospice, I tell them this is a group of people. Think of it as a team. Lisa Smith: Great. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: that is going to help your loved one. It is a group of people. So you've the hospice nurse, you you have the doctors, the social worker, the person who's helping with spirituality. So you have a group of people. Now where the end of life doula will come in is it they'll help support the family in a much broader way give them greater time. So as you know, in hospice in the United States at least, most hospice is paid for via Medicare. And so there are a lot of rules. And some of these rules make it very difficult for the hospice team to spend a lot of time with the person. So what you'll get is you'll have a nurse come in once or twice a week for an hour, and that sometimes is it. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: That's not a lot of time. So and it's not a lot of time to learn and to really digest that information. So what an end-of-life duela will do when there's a situation where the person is in hospice, they'll come in and they'll spend a much greater amount of time. I'll spend four to eight hours with a person, that person might be not up, and I'll be Then taking care of the family and ask, you know, answering questions. I might be reading to the person. I would companion with the person who is dying. Also, we come in before hospice, or we should come in before hospice. I work with a lot of people where I'm talking to them about their advanced directive. And what do they want? And for those that don't know what an advanced directive is, it is a document that will tell doctors and the medical medical team your wishes for sustaining your life. Do you want CPR? Do you want hydration or do you want a feeding tube? So it it goes through a whole bunch of different scenarios. but in the best possible situation. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: you'd want an end of life dealer to be working with you well before you're in those last phases of your life. Lisa Wilson: So like it was great for me to have the hospice care when I could ask the question to say, is this normal? Is that normal? But if I had had any inkling that there you were out there in the world. Or this position existed, I would have brought you in as soon as we found out that he was they were going to continue chemotherapy for my dad or for my mom, who, you know, she had issues that we didn't even know what they meant. And I felt like anytime we talked to a physician, we got what the treatment was, not what it actually meant. Does that make sense? And I really looked at the role of a death dual as I would have had that guide with me. Traci Arieli: Yes, yes, it does. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: To say, okay, what does this mean? What does it mean when when he does this at night? What does it mean when she's doing this? Like, what does it mean when the doctor says that? it's nice to have a partner in it, but it's also nice to have an unbiased partner. Somebody who is not emotionally wrapped around the axle with you of your loved one, who can say, okay, Lisa. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Like the doctor said this, but it's been my experience, the XYZ. And then for someone that is going through this to have a partner, like if someone is terminal, they I'm sure could really use the help of someone who has seen this with other people and share that experience. And I I think that's one thing with the death duel that again, it just keeps coming up as like a guide that you would that you would want. Traci Arieli: I 100% agree with you. I think that in our country we and a lot in North America, because I've talked to a lot of people in Canada who it's it's very similar. We what we see, we don't see the reality of death. What we see is what we see in TV and movies, which is almost a romantic notion of death. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: And that's not the reality. Very bluntly, death is is death is ugly. It is not is not this beautiful thing that you see. It is scary for people who have not been through it before. And every single person's death is different. and so when you look at having a guide or someone there that is not emotionally attached to what's happening, we can slow things down. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: And have the conversations with the loved one and the family, and you know, put for the family, put those fears at ease. Now I can tell you, by the time a person is actively dying, is in that phase, their fear is not like the family's fear. The family, in my experience, has a lot more fear. but before that. Lisa Smith: Hmm. Lisa Wilson: Right. Traci Arieli: It is working with the person to make sure that they have everything that they want. When I sit with with people, I cannot tell you how important it is to talk to them about their lives. They want to talk about their lives. They want certain people around them, they want their loved ones, And so what an end-of-life duo would do or a death duo would do is ensure or help make that happen. there are people they don't want around. I'm an advocate for the person who is dying. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: I talk to people about what they want the room to be like. Do they want certain music? Do they want certain smells? Do they want aroma, you know, aromatherapy as an example? The first year that I was an end-of-life doula after my training, I volunteered at hospice. And I was surprised. that every single time I went into a room The person was just sitting in bed or lying in bed, I should say, in their living room or in another room in their house. And it was silent. And it was, you know, sometimes they'd be staring at the wall. So no one had that discussion with them. Hey, you know, what do you want playing? Do you want your favorite movies on? Do you want and these people were still still up? but they were very sick. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Lisa Smith: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: they were terminally ill. A person isn't dead yet. That death is one point in time. Lisa Wilson: Right. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Yeah, so- Traci Arieli: So making Lisa Wilson: I mean I Traci Arieli: those last moments really important and meaningful. Lisa Wilson: Lisa and I encountered this when we were talking to each other about it. You're not thinking about the person. You're thinking about how everyone is reacting to the person. Lisa Smith: Well, I think too, what I'm hearing you say Tracy is that you help personalize that end of life journey for that, your loved ones and making sure that you're filling in the gaps where hospice really probably can't sometimes a death doula is additional support for the family as they navigate through this unprecedented time. that they've never been through before. They don't know what to expect. know, fires start blowing up with family members. Grief looks different for everyone. People are stressed, stretched to the max, trying to probably figure out details and what that looks like. And it can be very scary situations. So could you maybe give us an example of Lisa Wilson: Mm. Lisa Smith: give us some examples of some things that maybe family, you don't realize that family needs until you're in it. Traci Arieli: every family is going through their own muck and their their own journey. I'm gonna start really at a high level here and then I'll give you an example. Yeah, I brought up before that in the United States we don't do this well. We used to do it well when we lived on farms and saw our livestock. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Great. Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: dying and in in fact as a result of the civil war, we people died at home. So people are very afraid of death because we don't see it. and so most families, most people don't think about death. And because of that, this is a big surprise to people. And they don't know what to expect. When I help families, I always start with quality of life. What does quality of life look like for this person? If I'm working with a family. that where the person isn't actively dying yet. They're just sick. They know maybe sometime in the future, e even a year, I've worked with people two years out from their death. Lisa Smith: So we can start much, much, much earlier than hospice typically would. And you should. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: Yes, and you should, quite frankly, Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: there are a lot of decisions to be made. and a lot of conversations that need to happen. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: So everything I do is not just about filling out an advanced directive or making a decision. It is about Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Okay, why are you making that decision? What is a quality of life? What does that mean to you? Great. After we make these decisions, let's talk to your family about it so that they can understand why you're making those decisions. I take them through a whole list of you know, whole conversation. You know, have you seen death before? What have you you've seen that you you are fearful of? what don't you want? What do you want? What's an ideal day? and it's a long conversation, but I have it with their Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: power, you know, healthcare power of attorney, they're healthcare agents, because there are a number of things that could happen that are not on those three pieces of paper on the advanced directive. it's much more about the conversations I help facilitate than the paperwork. I have helped families before families have called me in when their loved one is very sick to determine if this person is ready to go into hospice. Because, and that's a decision that the person who is sick needs to make. so talking to people about are they ready? What does quality of life mean to them? And are they at the point where they're ready to go into hospice, ready to say, okay, I'm ready to die. Lisa Smith: Okay. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. So what is normally the phone call that brings them to you? Lisa Smith: That's a good question. Traci Arieli: Yeah, Lisa Wilson: 'Cause I'm ready to hire you now. Like just to make I mean Lisa Smith: Haha Traci Arieli: It really depends on it's very, very interesting. So the phone calls I like the best, quite honestly, are the Gen Xers who have parents and want help because they some of them, especially in California, don't live in California anymore. So they want someone who is here to be able to talk with their parents and and to meet with their parents. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Traci Arieli: It it's really interesting because I think that the Gen Xers are the first generation to really be open and to talking to their families or parents about this kind of stuff. Not only the medical stuff, but the financial stuff too. didn't talk about yeah. Yeah. It's not something that they did. Lisa Smith: didn't talk about it. Yeah. No. Traci Arieli: When I could work with a family well before they're sick, or even when they're sick well before they they die, I have a relationship with that family that is so meaningful. I've been called in at the last minute also, and I've helped families, but the the calmness that trust that you build over time. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: is really important. And I'll be very honest. I do get attached to the families I work with. you know, I I I would be a horrible therapist. I really would. because I know there has to be some distance between the the people you're helping and and the therapist, but I really care deeply about these families. Lisa Smith: imagine. I can only imagine seeing so many different people at so many different stages of their end of life journey. if somebody wanted to hire you, like Lisa said, ready to hire you now, how would they go about that? Is this something that you just look up, you Google? mean, is there a community of Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Just yeah, they Lisa Smith: of death doulas? Traci Arieli: The what I would recommend, because it is such a new field, I would recommend going to the Enalda, the international, the International End of Life Doula Alliance, and then there's NETA, the National End of Life Doula Alliance. And they have directories. And so you can look up there. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Okay. Traci Arieli: my you know I'm sure you'll put in the description where to to get to me the name of my company's comforting closure. And so it's comfortingclosure.com. I would say interview two or three people just to see who you mesh with. most end of life doulas will Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: I offer like a free thirty minute consult just because we need to get to know each other to make sure that we will make a a really good match. Lisa Smith: Okay, so I love that there is like a community that is certified and vetted because that is important. So could you kind of talk to us a little bit about what, because this is a private service, it doesn't go through insurance, I'm assuming. So could you kind of walk us through ballpark type of pricing that you would be looking at? Traci Arieli: Well it depends where the person is. I live in the Bay Area, so it's gonna be more expensive here than anywhere else. you know, I know doulas here, they are charging 150 to 170 an hour as an example. more in LA, I think. but I do not know one dual, myself included, that will turn Lisa Smith: Okay. Every little bit. Sure. Lisa Wilson: Sure. Lisa Smith: Okay. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: down families that can't afford this. And this is the real disappointment or or you know of of the American health care service. I don't think that anyone should have to go without. This is a really scary time and people shouldn't have to go without this help. So and I I would say that almost every single doula that I talk to agrees Lisa Wilson: Mm. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Traci Arieli: And and does work on a sliding scale. Lisa Smith: Because I, you know, you think about when you're in that situation, there could be bills piling up, there could you know, just concerns for how are we going to pay for the funeral if your family, your loved one didn't, you know, plan for that sooner and things like that. So are you also able to kind of help the family and the patient through kind of like Okay, step by step, this is kind of how we can maybe map this out. You said that you go through passwords and things like that. Is there also like another financial type of layer that you provide in your service? Traci Arieli: Yes, and every single doula will will do this differently. Personally, I help families. I know a lot of people in the funeral industry. I know legally what you can and can't do as an example, a a funeral home. You could purchase a casket outside of the funeral home. And they would accept that. Lisa Smith: Okay. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: So I will actually sit with the family. I love people who come to me well in advance. I love talking to people at that stage because we could plan for what they want. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: I also work with families on other aspects of finances, social security as an example. If you're married, what do you do as a person gets sick and becomes terminally ill, spousal support? Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: you know, disability and spousal support and what happens after, especially if you have kids. so I help families with that. Most death doulas or end of life doulas don't, but I was very fortunate and just became very connected in that community. and after a person passes away, there's financial aspects, but as part of grief coaching. Lisa Smith: important. Traci Arieli: of that grief work, there is a practical component of that. And most people who've gone through death, especially when it's a spouse, it's very difficult to focus. So I've helped with finances after I've actually sat next to people as they open up their mail to pay bills, to make sure the bills are being paid. I mean, those little things in life that we take Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Mmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: For granted that are just easy. Lisa Smith: For granted, yeah, especially when you're in that vortex of grief and confusion and there's so many things that go into it, that service is really unbelievable. I mean, you're only going to go through that exact experience one time. So if you can have somebody who can help make a little bit less painful, that is so critical. Traci Arieli: Yeah, it is. Now I know Lisa, you were telling us about your father before. And I'm so curious. I know your father was really it sounds like it was really quick. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was diagnosed with colon and lung cancer in October, and he was gone by June. And it was his hospice experience was he was in the hospital for a lot longer than we all thought he should be. But again, we had this weird component of the oncologist trying to move him out of this end-of-life state in for more chemotherapy treatment. And so rather than let him go to hospice, they kept pushing to do more treatment. And then once he finally got to hospice, they tried to take him out of hospice to do more treatment. And then he passed away within a few hours of being in hospice. we spend a lot of time on financial planning. We do a lot of time on family planning, but we do no time on death planning. So like I know that when we are all, you know, faced with this inevitable end, we don't become the best version of ourselves sometimes, right? Like Jordan Gremmett said, you you die how you lived. Well, a lot of us are not ready for that time when it comes. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Yes. Yes. Lisa Wilson: An ideal situation would be you come and meet us as we are today, We talk about from a healthy perspective when we're not faced with this grief and this immediate coming to terms ending. So that if something does happen, then you're flagged that something has happened and you come in and help the remaining spouse, or you you're like, okay, this is what we talked about. I just want to make sure everybody here is still on board with this. And that really helps kind of keep the focus on the person. Rather than the situation. Traci Arieli: And it's and it's really funny because those conversations, while they're not easy, they're necessary. I remember I did for my podcast, I did a two-parter where I had another Death Doula interview me about my advanced directive. And it became a two parter because we got into these conversations. And my husband was sitting right next to me while we're having this conversation. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: Yeah, I I said, yeah, it's more than just the pain. Quite frankly, I want to make sure that my teeth are brushed every day. I want to make sure that I have moisturizer on my lips and on my hands. And I turned to to my husband, I said, and you know, these whiskers here, make sure that they're taken care of, right? Lisa Wilson: Mm. Traci Arieli: And then we're laughing. A couple of weeks later I get a call from one of my friends. She's laughing. She's like, I love that part where you're talking about your chin whiskers, Tracy. Lisa Wilson: Listen. I mean, that's those are the conversations, right? That it's easier to have now than when you're trying when you're drowning in this grief and you're swimming around and melancholy. It's hard to remember what it was like when you were funny or what it what was important to you when you were healthy, right? Like my thing is I want to make sure I have lotion and socks on. And my husband, because I hate dry feet, I can't rest if my feet are dry and I can't sleep without socks on. So I've told all of my friends. Traci Arieli: Yes. Lisa Smith: Yeah. You Traci Arieli: Yes. Lisa Wilson: that that I don't care if I'm brain cremated. I want socks and I want lotion on my feet before I go in. Like and I really genuinely mean that. And they all know I'm very serious about it. But like I don't know how I've normalized these conversations over years, but I definitely have and I think it's so important. Lisa Smith: you Traci Arieli: I I find it really interesting your story about the doctor and how the doctor really didn't want your father in hospice. That is the norm. I worked with a family who their loved one had many problems. One of them was kidney disease, Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Uh-huh. Traci Arieli: I was there to assess whether hospice was the right fit and what quality of life meant for her. And and she was just in bed. That's all. She was in bed. She couldn't even get out of bed. In in the nursing facility they had her in a diaper and when she'd go to the bathroom, sometimes it would be hours before someone from skilled nursing would get to her. And she was like, if this is what my life is going to be like for the rest of my life, just I'm ready for hospice. I'm ready to go. she was getting dialysis four to five times a week at that point, which and she had been for seven years Lisa Smith: It's Traci Arieli: getting dialysis, which is a very long time for dialysis. so after I had the conversation and we made this decision and brought her family in, I remember the doctor coming in and thanking me and saying, I can't, it's so difficult for me to talk about this. A doctor said that to me. I helped put together a celebration of life for someone who was living. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Hmm. Traci Arieli: She told she stood up and she told every single person how much they meant to her. And then they stood up and did the same. And at one point her nephew stood up and was in a doctor in residency and said, you know, I know I should be better at talking about death, but I have a hard time with it with death. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: I love that. Well, I mean, their role is to keep you alive. And so I can see where that, where kind of flipping that switch to be like, okay, like I've done all that I can, or I'm sure that is hard. I guess I never really thought about that. Traci Arieli: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: So Tracy, what do you think families miss mo them that that they are surprised about with death? Like what is the thing that they're all like, I didn't know that this would be like this? Lisa Smith: Ahem. Traci Arieli: some of the last moments, the breathing changes, the, you know, something that it's called agnal breathing, but a lot of people it's the death rattle and it's the the gasping for breath, that freaks everyone out. it really is very scary. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Mm. Lisa Wilson: It freaked me out. Like but again, I was in hospice at the time and they were explaining to us very calmly like what that meant. It definitely surprised me, my with my experience. What's something that most families just overlook entirely? Lisa Smith: Hmm. Traci Arieli: Well, if I hadn't been working with them, I would say that making sure everything is written down. almost every family though doesn't, they haven't had those conversations, those quality of life conversations, so they don't know what their loved one wants at the end. And that could be very difficult in making decisions when you're in crisis mode that you just don't know. And then there's a whole bunch of guilt that could be associated with it. When you Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Traci Arieli: are getting older. Yeah, everyone who's in their fifties should start to have these conversations. Lisa Smith: We are hearing that more and more and more, that it should start sooner and sooner and sooner. And I've just never heard of that before, but it makes complete sense. Traci Arieli: Yeah, it w Lisa Wilson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Yeah, i i it does. And I I think that you're doing your family a favor by not only letting them know what you want, because the amount of guilt and fighting that happens that I've seen, it tears families apart and it tears people apart. That guilt, did I do the right thing? So you're doing your family a favor by having these conversations with them. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Traci Arieli: A lot of people ask me, especially with advanced directive work, when should when is it okay time to talk to kids about this? Everyone over 18 should have an advanced directive. My what I say is when your child is getting their driver's license and you know they fill out if they want to take and donate their organs, this is a great time to take and have this extended conversation, you know, not only about organs, but yeah, hey. Lisa Smith: Mmm. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Yeah, yeah, we just did that. Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: There's something called an advanced directive. You should have it when you're 18, but this is what I have on mine and this is why. Because this you don't need to shelter children or teenagers from this. They're not scared of this because it has not it's not a reality to them yet. Lisa Smith: Mm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Lisa Smith: Yeah, that's true. Traci Arieli: So having that conversation with your teenagers, you're doing them a favor because it's kind of like when you're younger if your children if your parents talk to you about bills and how to pay your bills and how to write a check. Yeah, you know, that is needed. And you look yeah, so it's in the same it's the same thing. Lisa Smith: True. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Is there something that families like because you talked about arguing and I mean we've all felt that like we almost become like if there's it's one of those things that like if there's a crack in someone's relationship, grief really like expands it, And it highlights it and it makes it pulse and it just can make everything worse. But is there something that you see people spinning about and spending a lot of time on that in the long run just doesn't really matter? Traci Arieli: I hate to say that it depends on the family. There's not one specific thing. What I can say is that if you have the conversations that are needed with your family, with your loved one, none of it matters. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Doing what is important for that individual who is dying and understanding the why behind it, which you can't understand unless you have those conversations. That is important and everything else. As long as you have those conversations about quality of life and what they want, everything else falls into place. And even the imperfections, they don't matter because you know you've done right by that person. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa Smith: I wanted to ask you, Tracy, in your experience, what would you say? is maybe the best way to approach these conversations with a Gen X parent. We all know that, you know, that talking about this is not as comfortable maybe as later generations. And if they are sick or not sick, you know, how, what is a good way to kind of approach this conversation of, Traci Arieli: Yes. Lisa Smith: advanced directive or do you have one or, you know, and then kind of the steps after that. I think it's starting the conversation with some of our parents that we don't even know how to begin that conversation. Traci Arieli: When parents start seeing their friends get sick. Lisa Smith: Mm. Traci Arieli: That's I found when people are more willing to talk and talk to them about their friends. You know, if a person is sick or if a person is has died, one of their friends have died, talk to them about it and say, hey, you know, did you see them when they got ill? What was that like? What scared you? What was what would you never want? What would you want? You know, what did you see? Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Mmm. That's an easy way to do that. Traci Arieli: That I would say is when my parents and when other parents really are more open I I think to talking. My parents before their friends started to get ill, my parents do not have advanced directives. I know your mouths are probably I know Lisa, I know, I know what you're thinking. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Listen. No, listen. Lisa Smith: Hey, it's Lisa Wilson: You're talking to two people who could not get their parents to do anything. So we see you. Lisa Smith: no judgment. Red. Traci Arieli: but we've we've had like my mom has had discussions with me and my brothers. my dad is convinced he's never going to die. so or he'll live to at least 120. so but they are very willing to talk about their friends. so and from that I could Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. They all are. Yep. Let's hope. Lisa Smith: Hmm. That's interesting. Traci Arieli: really get a good assessment as to what they they want and what they would not want. Lisa Wilson: It's great, it's a great thing. I feel like we've spent a lot of time talking about leading up to someone passing away. And really where, you know, I struggled was after that happened. I mean, you heard in my last episode, I still carry grief because I still feel like I didn't do enough at the end, right? Or I, or I made the wrong decisions at the end. And I think that I definitely know I'm not alone. What do you think families are unprepared for at after the funeral? Traci Arieli: People are unprepared for how alone they're going to feel. You might even have a family, but no one wants to talk to about death. None of your friends, you know, I I think after the first month, everyone's going to disappear. And there is an expectation in our society that after six months to a year, you should be done with grief. It's been a year. Why aren't you just over it? Lisa Smith: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Yes. Traci Arieli: You'll never be over grief. Grief changes you. So might the grief itself might change, but it will still be there and it will come back and it will the these stages, the stages of grief. there are no stages. It's a big mishmash. You might be angry and then be sad and then be happy, then come back to angry. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: And then when there are new deaths, all those deaths that you've already experienced will come up again. So I I would want people to know that whatever you're feeling is normal. You could be five years out and still be crying, and that's normal, and it is okay. And if you have friends that are grieving, the best thing you could do for them. Lisa Wilson: Mm. Mm. Traci Arieli: is be there and listen and ask them about their loved one. Let them talk about their loved one. I'm sure you still like to talk about your father. and that's important. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: yeah. I talk about I talk about both my parents all the time. because I mean, you know, like and I find the more I talk about it, the less emotional I get and the easier it is for me to kind of I always say that grief is like a wave. Like you're fine one day and then something out of the blue happens and you're underwater again. And I mean, like I said, I'm going on 16 years and it still happens to all of us. Traci Arieli: Yeah. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: we're all focused on this event of it actually happening. And then when it happens, and we're like, okay, what are we supposed to do now? Like how do we handle what's left, you know, about this person? And it's really like the grief counseling is is excellent advice because it doesn't just go away. It doesn't seep out. Like you need to have those conversations. I think that's a great tactic. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: Yeah, and you have to learn how to have a relationship with your loved one who's passed away because you still have a relationship with them, whatever your beliefs are, you still have a relationship with them. and I think that one other thing that I really see is with spouses, and most spouses are not prepared for I I liken it to ADHD. It is really difficult to focus. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Traci Arieli: after the death of your loved one of your spouse, it is very difficult. Sometimes for years it is difficult. And so ask for help. You know, if you've children, ask for them to come over and and help you with opening up the mail and know that your parents they might seem stoic and okay, but they're not. Lisa Smith: Hmm. a common thread that I've heard is that they didn't realize how much their mom or their dad depended on the other spouse. And when that spouse is gone, it reverts them almost into, like a childlike phase where they honestly can't do anything for themselves or they're spending too much money or they're, know, behaviors that maybe weren't there before are kind of like heightened. And I've heard that a lot lately of just like, I had no idea that my mom, you know, couldn't balance a checkbook or, But probably that she could, it's just... Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: My mom didn't know how to put gas in her car. I mean that I mean these are the realities of of what you're saying, Lisa. And I think that that I think it's it's it's important to have those conversations. But again, this all keeps coming back to like it's you need to have the conversation. And and Tracy, you've helped us so much with kind of like, okay, here's how you package it, here's how it can roll out, here's what you can do to be prepared, or you can hire a death dueler. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: which I think that you've given us, I think I'm hoping that people that are listening, or if you're watching and you're not sure what to do first, I'm gonna put the link to the websites so you can get on that and you can either hire Tracy if you're in that area or you can sort through and interview a couple and find one that you can relate to. But there's no reason for you not to have some help. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Like and and someone again who doesn't have a dog in the fight is is really, so critical as someone who's been underwater with this grief so much. But Tracy, I just love what you do and I respect it so much. we always have this thing we call the high five hunt. So it doesn't matter what we're doing in our life, we always look for that one thing that is a high five. Lisa Smith: Yeah, me Traci Arieli: Thank Lisa Wilson: So what is your one thing about being a Daf Doola that is your high five? Traci Arieli: Being a death doula has taught me how to live so much from a day-to-day perspective, what's really important. I would say that when I was in tech, I'm a very different person than I am now. and the things that were important to me in that career, I look at and they weren't important. being a death duelist taught me how to live a very happy life. Lisa Smith: Well said. Lisa Wilson: I love that. Love it so much. So you guys, if you've had a question about dying and you've never, never knew who to ask or what to ask, put it in our chat, send it to us on our Instagram or on YouTube, and we will make sure that we get it to Tracy. Or you can go to Tracy. She's got, she's got all the Instagram handles and all the socials, which again I'm gonna put in the show notes so you'll be able to find her as well. but you guys, we wanna make sure that you are you Lisa Smith: Well said, I love it. Lisa Wilson: Don't feel alone in this because it is very isolating, especially if you're like Lisa and Lisa, where we carry a lot of the water around us for all of the people. It can be really overwhelming. and so it's so important that you don't feel alone. Like that's what these are for. And Tracy, I cannot tell you, but it never occurred to me to play music for my mom or my dad. Lisa Smith: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: And they both loved music. Like, I'm gonna have a whole playlist by the end of this week for me. Lisa Smith: Lisa, think about it. I think the same thing. I would think they want it quiet and they want no noise. So you don't know though unless you ask. So. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And and look, I you don't. I I'm gonna be thinking about that all week. Like it is, it really has gotten the conversation going and I really appreciate it. And this has just been awesome. So you guys make sure you hydrate, make sure you unclench jaw, make sure you roll those shoulders back and go high five somebody this week. Thanks so much, guys. Bye. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Bye. Traci Arieli: I'm