Latest / Bro-ing Pains / What Do You Stand For? | How Values Shape Your Identity

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What Do You Stand For? | How Values Shape Your Identity · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: What are we doing here?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like what what are we what are we living our life for?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: What's up, world?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Papa Chat.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Carlos, theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate puppy.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: And a quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I did want to start with this question.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you believe you're a good person, Chad?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I don't know.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: It depends on what you mean by good.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_04: What about you?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I try to be a good person, but at the same time, I don't mind being the villain in somebody else's story.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think most of us like to believe we're good people.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're honest, we're loyal, we have integrity.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to say those things matter to you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's another thing to actually live by them, especially when it's inconvenient.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell We all have these ideas of who we are and what we stand for.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: But how often do we actually stop and question where those values came from?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: And how many of those values did we consciously choose?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because a lot of what we believe comes from our upbringing, families, culture, and the experiences we've had along the way.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because I know what matters to me, but I don't think I've ever actually sat down and defined my values.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: We all have values, whether we've intentionally identified them or not, but understanding them can help us make decisions about the kind of people we want to be.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: And what I always say is make decisions about where you want to spend your time and your money.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when those values are challenged?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or worse, when two things we deeply believe in completely contradict each other?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And can we really say we know ourselves if we don't know what matters most to us?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_04: So today we're asking, what do you stand for?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: Where do your values come from?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: And are you actually living by them?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, we present to you vignette number 16, the things we stand for.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: Ryan grew up in a family where loyalty meant everything.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: You showed up for your family, kept disagreements behind closed doors, and never embarrassed the people who raised you.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: No matter what happened, they took care of their own.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Ryan was proud of that.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: As an adult, he tried to live by his own values too, treating people fairly, standing up for others, and doing the right thing, even when it was uncomfortable.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: Then at a family dinner, his older brother started making jokes about a coworker who'd recently been fired.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: The conversation turned into comments about the guy's background and whether he deserved what happened.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: Ryan pushed back, saying they don't know the whole story and that it wasn't right to talk about someone that way.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: His brother rolled his eyes, his dad told him he was being too sensitive and needed to lighten up.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: Ryan went quiet.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: On the drive home, he wondered why he'd back down so quickly.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_04: He'd always believed in standing up for people, and when it meant challenging his own family, when it felt uncomfortable, things felt different.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: These were the people who'd supported him, shaped him, and taught him what loyalty meant in the first place.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: And now he found himself wanting to challenge them.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: He'd always thought of himself as a loyal son and a man who stood up for what was right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_04: But what happens when those two things came into conflict?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: And if Ryan couldn't stand by his values when it cost him something, how sure could he really be that they were his values at all?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is happening often in families with uh this current administration and there's so much political divide.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: Basically, ever since 2020, there's been a lot of interfamily turmoil when it comes to disagreements and conflict.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: And we've talked about like millennials and adult children being estranged from their parents.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I mean, in one aspect I really appreciate people wanting to stand up for what they believe in.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: And another aspect, I'm noticing that people, you know, don't feel supported or are walking around feeling not completely like emotionally safe with their families or the people that really love them, and there's a loss there too.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not all good, you know, but it's also bad too.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's also interesting because it feels contradictory for a millennial who's in who's estranged from their parent.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: It feels contradictory to being a good person, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving your family behind, leaving your the people that raised you behind.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly feel a lot of pressure for my family in general, like Ryan situation to put family first no matter what.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're loyal to your family no matter what.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: If your family is at such a toxic environment, you like you got to do what's best for yourself, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and like again, depending on what side you're on, you you might be a a good person or you're the villain in somebody's story.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: Someone's gonna decide whether you're good or not, you know, independently of what you believe in.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_04: I like to challenge this all the time with myself, but it's really hard because I think as a human, like I want to be able to feel like I am a good person.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: But at the end of the day, like I have to not really care about whether I'm being good or bad.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's just am I living by my values and what like what I believe is good for me in the moment.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I have to live with that and be okay with that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: But it's uncomfortable because I I still want to be good in other people's eyes, or even in my eyes.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like I want to be able to call myself good, but I think letting that go has been a big challenge for sure.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so I I did want to start with um talking about your family values, because I think that being able to so clearly define your values, not only your values, but your family values.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's um I've heard of before, but it's it's not something that I'm I'm used to.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_04: So when I first started dating my wife on like one of our like first or second dates, I started talking about like trust and how it's important to me and commitment.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: And um, so I've always kind of been someone that like wants to create this sense of like security and sense of maturity about how we go about life.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: And luckily I have a partner who also is is interested in that.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, like, you know, with any couple, like we have had to work through like just different challenges along the way, whether that be individually or as a as a couple, and um and like going to therapy and seeking help, you know, we were we were tasked and challenged to decide like what what we want to live our lives by to like write them down and to be able to reference back to them.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when a decision comes up about what to do with our time and our money, um, on a good day, we try to run that decision through the through the values checker, basically.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: And every once in a while we lose sight of that and we don't, but we try to do that as much as possible.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: And we find that it it helps like ground us.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's something that like I even encourage like probably all my clients to do.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's not something that needs to be like static or like, you know, it needs to be something that you feel confident in and it can grow as as life changes and and it could change.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I think just actually talking about it and saying, like, what are we doing here?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like what what are we what are we living our life for?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's very grounding to me and I think to to my relationship.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious how you got there in the first place.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that for one, it's pretty impressive to uh to vocalize that so clearly on your like second or third date.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people would be a little apprehensive about breaking that up so soon, so early on when you're getting to know somebody.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's um it's not easy to do.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, it is pretty uh intense to be able to talk about that on your second or third date.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: And that's probably why I scared a lot of women away.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um because that's that's just kind of the person that I was.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted a really secure relationship and something that I wanted to keep it real and talk about real stuff.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: But I think it really started to solidify from quarter life college crises.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Quarter life college crises is crazy.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's being 22, being like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: I was even before that, because I, you know, wanted to be in law enforcement for the longest time.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: Ever since I was a little kid, I wanted to be a police officer and go into college.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I was working for the local sheriff's department and wanted to potentially be like in federal law enforcement.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm taking these sociology classes talking about race, class, and gender.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: And this white boy from a country town, you know, kind of a small town that grew up in a conservative household was getting his values challenged very directly.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: And he wasn't liking it very much.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: Your boy had to grow a little bit.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like that experience of being able to like figure out like what was really important to me and not just regurgitate like what I was growing up in and just vote for Mitt Romney because my parents did.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: RIP, I did do that.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think that that like that experience like really propelled me to like really start to think about like what I wanted and what I thought was important, regardless of if my parents thought differently.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I think deep down, like they want me to they wanted me to become my own person.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: They just didn't want me to be brainwashed by the liberal university as much as uh maybe they think so.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, your parents want you to become your own person, but under their rules, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's under their their guidelines or whatever.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I I 1000% resonate with that, you know.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've said it before on this podcast that there's a lot of really good um and like positive values that I can take away from from both my parents, but then there's also a certain point where it's like, am I being true to myself?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or or like, am I trying to abide by my parents' belief systems and and values and things like that?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so the idea of like being a being a good person, bringing uh taking it back to the religion episode, being like a God-fearing person, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like that to my family, that means like doing right by him, right?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and and like following the Ten Commandments, you know, or not breaking or not sinning, you know what I mean?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like at one point are you losing yourself and not being true to yourself.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that my my dad's infidelity, that was a moment where I had to look at not only myself, but like my my family and and what was happening.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, how do I, how do you, how do you hold space for well, I was told that we have to live our lives following these 10 commandments and and you know, fearing God, you know what I mean, and and and his wrath, I guess.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: But then my dad so easily like went and and broke one of them, right?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: One of the commandments, or we're sinning or whatever.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's like, okay, then is any of this fucking real?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was a catalyst for me to to be able to define it for myself or or or like what is even being a good person.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I talked about like the values and how it goes through like the the idea every time we make a decision, it has to go through this subset of values and is it aligned with that?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: And that to me feels like grounded, but for you, like how do you make decisions about what makes you feel like you're gonna be a good person or like not regret like a decision?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: And like to me, like culture is a big shape with that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like like you talked about like your upbringing, my experiences like traveling and being able to like meet other people and and like diverse people has really helped like I think build my sense of what I believe is quote unquote good.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: But what about what about for you?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: What do you think has been like some of the big moments for you that have shaped those those decisions?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I want to say that as a single man with no children, a lot of my decisions can seem really selfish to other people.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that because I have spent the majority of my life putting other people before me, like specifically family members, you know what I mean?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I've witnessed my mom do that in her life.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so not losing sight of of who I am comes first.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that's that's a that's a lens from which I interpret the world.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's that's not to say, like, I don't, I don't think I'm an asshole.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: At least I don't try to be, you know what I mean?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's just interesting that you're calling it and and labeling it selfish.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: That potentially is labeling it in a way that's like you're saying that other people could view your decisions and how you make choices as like being bad.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: I believe it's neither bad nor good.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's just they're your choices and it's your life.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: On a good day, like that's how I feel.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: But like, I think just like everybody else, I'm just as judgmental as the next, and it's it's hard to not decide if a decision is good or bad.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's like that's what this whole episode is about is how do you have the confidence and the wherewithal to feel comfortable with your decisions and how you move through the world.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I mean, I'm thinking about Ryan here, or I'm thinking about, like you mentioned the religion episode.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like this happens all the time.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I mean, we're getting to the holidays, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: Thanksgiving, okay?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what are you supposed to do if you're a good family member?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, your auntie is the one who always apparently uh hosts Thanksgiving dinner, but you don't really like going over Auntie's house because Uncle gets drunk and starts saying racist shit.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: You don't want your kids around it, or whatever it is.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like you just don't feel comfortable about it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: How do you make that decision without feeling bad or or also like the worst part is without like losing relationships?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like that's why a lot of people like give in and not want to stand on their own values and be able to say this isn't right because like I don't want to be alone.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: One friend comes to mind in particular who has a strained uh relationship with her family.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, join the club.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, who does that?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Shit.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: I could literally be talking about anybody here.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you're talking about me.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Something that I really admire about her is that she is family, is incredibly important to her.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ritual with your with your family, you're doing it, and and like coming together for the holidays or, you know, birthdays and all these things, that's really important to her.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard because it's like, on one hand, this is her, this is one of her values, like family and building relationship with her family is one of her values.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, her family pr also provides and brings a lot of pain in her life.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do you hold space for for both of those?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: And then, like, to me, then I often get like, well, then we just we won't talk about certain topics.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: We'll just get together for the holidays because it's a good to see them, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: What has been so painful for me when I have done that in the past and why I'm no longer interested in doing that is that I genuinely feel that I can't be my whole person, that I have to hide parts of who I am and how I think and how I believe.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so it doesn't feel genuine, it feels inauthentic.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think for me, like one of my personal values is authenticity and being able to say what I believe.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: And part of that is when I have relationships with people that I don't feel like I have to hide parts of who I am.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_04: The Chef's Table um episode.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: Chef's Table is a Netflix show where they follow chefs, and there's a shit from Argentina, his name is Francis Mallman.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: He's definitely one that doesn't give a fuck about what other people think.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think he also doesn't do a good job of maintaining relationships.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_04: And he gives this example where he had this friend, and they kind of just eventually, as they grew older, they just they just grew apart.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_04: They they went different directions in their life and developed differently.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: And one time this friend came to him years later and said, you know, Francis, you you don't like me anymore.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_04: And Francis responds by saying, you know, it it's not that I don't like you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I still have all these memories of these great times that we have, and I I cherish those those moments.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: But the reality is that I don't enjoy spending time with you anymore.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not interested in doing it as theater.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_04: That's the line that I use all the time is I'm no longer interested in doing it as theater.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: That, you know, it's part of growing up.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: You you make choices, and it's a beautiful part.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: This is what he says, is like it's a beautiful part about life.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's a, it's a, it's a beautiful part about growing up, you know, telling the truth, even if it hurts.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I think a lot of people are not willing to tell the truth because they're afraid that they're gonna be alone or hurt someone else's feelings, or they feel responsible for taking care of other people.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, from like a mental health perspective, just like really quickly clinically, like what we find is that when people live inauthentically around their relationships and they hide parts of who they are, it affects their mental health.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_04: It affects their ability to feel confident and feel joy and it affects them over a long period of time.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it's no wonder why I see men oftentimes 35 plus to 55, you know, by the time they hit 30, mid-30s, and they get into their 50s and they've been hiding parts of themselves from family members for 20 plus years, then you start to see it combust and spill over in different ways.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when you end up on my couch.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: So that's my self-box.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: But what do you think about that quote from Francis Moman about theater?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, I love theater, so you're like, you're like, I'll I'll do a little theater.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'll thing that I that I do want to add is specifically speaking about children of immigrant parents.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that your parents immigrated to this country and sacrificed, you know, their lives for you and for your and for your siblings or whatever, there's a lot of pressure that comes with that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a there's a there's a lot of expectations that come with that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's what feels 10 times more difficult to be able to be your own person outside of your parents and and you know, everything that they're they they expect from you.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like something that I am struggling struggling with internally, like right now, like as we're speaking, is because I I'm somebody that does also value honesty, being uh authentic or whatever, being being really just true to yourself, right?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really difficult to feel like I'm being true to myself when I when I feel forced to uh like make appearances at like family events and things like that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that it feels it feels like the norm for one, but then it's also just like it feels easier to just continue it with it as opposed to the the all the alternative to that, which is to like blow it up.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: I have identified that I have been able to be in a privileged position to be able to blow it up.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Blow that shit up.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: No, but just like real, and and then something just like vulnerable that I'm struggling with, and because I think this is cool to say, like as a therapist, like I don't have it all figured out, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like something I'm struggling with as my identity as a therapist is what I just described about like being authentic and no longer doing it as theater does feel very privileged and white-centric and in individualism, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: And like Western culture.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, if I were to try to be a therapist in a collectivist culture, like I like I would be crazy for saying what I'm saying.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so to me, like it goes back to the beginning of the episode about what is good and what is bad.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's not necessarily good or bad, it's just for me, I I don't really know another way to do it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe I just haven't done enough education or trainings or research, but I feel like there's a miss there on my training and and kind of my outlook in life is like in order for you to be able to feel at peace with yourself, the man in the glass, to me, you have to make those choices about yourself.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because, and maybe this is another privileged position.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, this is 2026, we're not in a position of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Of I need to maintain my family relationships for survival.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: But maybe in different parts of the world, that's not the case, Chad.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe I do need to play face and to go to the family functions because at the end of the day, I need my family.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think every person has to make that decision for themselves.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe even in instances where you do have to play face, you say face and just play along.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe just finding moments or pockets where you can be authentically you or bow out of not every single family function, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you can, as you get older, create your own ones as you have your own family.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of things stand out to me there.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think one is the this idea around you've so you've brought it up a few times is the importance of making choices.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's so real, especially this is the age where we are continuing to sort of differentiate ourselves from the way that we were raised.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: The idea of making choices just feels that much more important.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're setting yourself up for your future.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And also something that always stands out to me is I personally credit the queer community with is the the ability to create community wherever you go and to the ability to build your own, your chosen family, you know.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, community is so important.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you you don't have to I mean, that's that feels very privileged to say, but you don't have to hold on to community community that has also hurt you and caused a lot of pain in your life.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Some people think they do.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: And what I try to do is, especially in our privileged society as Americans, as as people from the US, to try to get them to realize that actually they actually have more power and agency than they realize.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes they're prisons of their own demise, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: And they're like, oh, I need my family.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, well, what do you mean by that?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: And try to like deconstruct, like, okay, well, what parts do you want to keep and what parts do you want to kind of change?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's hard.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's really hard, like I said, because there's there's a lot of grief in it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_04: But I love what Francis Malman said.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_04: It was like, listen, I still cherish like all those times, you know, like there was, you know, even like with my dad, like I there's plenty of things that I could talk about that are great, you know, and and I still do cherish and I have memories and pictures and you know, things like that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: But, you know, at the end of the day, I have to make choices.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and the ability to say, to say that so clearly that like I just I don't enjoy spending time with you anymore.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's pretty badass to be able to say that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a fact of of life.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like you will outgrow people.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: People will outgrow you.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it might be painful, but even challenging the word outgrow, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because then that makes it sound like you're becoming better than them.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like it's it's just different, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's just you're just growing different ways.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: And you're not outgrowing to be better, you're just you're moving in different directions.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: And how do you still maintain the relationship with somebody that you really care about and love, even if those values are different from them?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if you're not going to be Francis Mallman and just like not talk to them anymore, like how do you maintain those relationships?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder if you've had an experience with that because you know, your boy is not interested in in being in doing things for theater anymore.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't really have a whole lot of experiences of maintaining relationships.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's something that I'm uh navigating every day, to be honest with you.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Who are you thinking about?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: Just just tell just tell me.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Just tell me who who it is.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: My parents?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yes.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: We know.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: We we we know.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: We know.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can ground myself in the fact that I love my mom and I I will always love my mom, but I'm also trying to build my own life outside of her and and and the way that she raised me.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of the times those two things conflict.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I feel like doing my best is just taking it day by day and figuring it out as I go.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to protect myself and I'm gonna protect my inner child.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's a choice you're making.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: As I've gone through this therapy journey, I just feel like the person who's who I've considered number one for most of my life is hasn't always protected me the way that I deserve to.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean that's that's how I feel about my mom.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like I said, you could still love them, but maybe just think about, you know, what sort of boundaries you want to have when it comes to being in a relationship with them.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: You know, maybe decreasing frequency of conversation, you know, or decreasing frequency of seeing them in person.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: You're making a choice to protect your inner child, and there's gonna be pros and cons of that.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: And and I what I struggle with is we'll never know if at the end of your life you're gonna look back at these choices and be like, Yep, those were great.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I did a great job, and I um I love all those decisions that I've made.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you're making the best choice that you can that you're making right now.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: And um I think oftentimes people forget that the relationship with themselves sometimes is the most important.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: You're trying to respect yourself enough to to take care of that, but there's also a lot of a lot of pain and grief from it.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking about privilege, I think it's I feel privileged that I have more language around that, like how how to put myself first and how to protect myself and protect my inner child and education.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Have the have that education.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is one value that you want to hold on to as you get older?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: The main value my wife and I both gravitate to the most in that this is the one that we're gonna probably hold on to for the longest and ground ourselves in is is intentionality.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: And for me in particular, what like what that looks like is really slowing down.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, because of the way I grew up.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I do a really good job of processing things really fast, um, reading people, um, predicting and preventing and planning and organizing and staying on top of everything.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_04: And what I've noticed is that that doesn't really make me happy.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when I enter spaces with intention and slow things down, I tend to really walk away feeling a lot happier.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I give this example of like, I couldn't wait to drive when I was a kid.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like I was chomping at the bit.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: And when I started driving, man, like my favorite thing to do was just go down the street, roll down my windows, and just blasting music like a fucking degenerate teenager.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and now as an adult, like how many times do you think about enjoying your drive?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like, we just view driving as a fucking chore and an annoyance.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is coming from somebody who doesn't have to sit in traffic, by the way.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, and I get so pissy when I do sit in traffic, but I become a very pissed boy.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, I mean, it just like just go into one thing to the next, you know, and it's just like when I slow down and when I do roll down my windows or I do put on, you know, some music, you know, it it it just feels better.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: It just it just does.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so that to me is like the value that is the hardest for me to implement.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think it's gonna be the longest and most rewarding one that I want to hold on to.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: What about for you?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think just being true to myself is is the is the most important thing and something that I I want to continue to hold on to as I get older because Would you call that authenticity, like I like I do, or what would you what would you call that?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it feels interchangeable.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the I think why I didn't want to use the word authenticity, because I I guess I like I said earlier, I find it really difficult to to feel authentic when I do have to perform theater with with my family members.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like that doesn't feel authentic, but I think that like staying true to myself is more the s more so the goal.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Something that I really admire about you, you are really intentional about you showing up as yourself and and and not not making yourself smaller anywhere you go.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: F from a from a career uh standpoint, a perspective, at the end of the day, it's like you're just connecting with with you know these clients.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's fucking dope.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really dope that you get to just be yourself and get and make a living from that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that that I aspire to, right?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is is is to be able to be able to make a living from just being myself and doing what I love and and and not not having to feel like I have to fit into this box or or like meet some sort of yeah, perform and to meet some expectation that I don't want to meet.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: It sucks.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a shitty place to be in.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_04: That's what they say a lot in in therapy school and in all the trainings and all the supervision.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you are your greatest intervention.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_04: At the end of the day, when you start, like just you being you is actually the secret sauce for you to actually help clients through the problems that they're experiencing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll leave you with this closing question.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do you hope your values and choices say about the person you're becoming?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, thanks for joining us for another episode.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, join us next week for our last installment of the season to talk about the ways in which we develop narratives about how others view us and how that impacts the way that we view and think about ourselves and maybe some ways that we can challenge that.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure that the two of us are gonna have a lot of discussion about that and look forward to y'all joining us.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Browing Pains.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Pass it on.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at GrowingPains to stay tapped in with the community.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: And if you got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growingpainspod at gmail.com.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_04: We'd love to hear from you.