Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Mastering the Art of Networking with Richard Wang
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing, the show where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. Let's get into it. they're constantly winging it because they feel networking is just meeting new people and creating small talk. Being a master networker is a skill, something that can be learned and perfected, which is why I am so excited. To introduce our guest, Richard Wong. He is a master networker, one of the best out there. Richard is a seasoned mortgage professional with Viridian Mortgage. He's known for building a strong referral-based business through strategic networking and visibility. He's deeply involved in professional networking communities where trust, consistency, and relationships matter most. Richard also used to be an attorney. So today we're going to dive into the dos and don'ts of networking. And I promise you that you will get better at networking if and only if you apply his wisdom. So Richard, welcome to unfuck your legal marketing. you, Gary. I'm so happy to be here. You have no idea. You have no idea. Well, good. So let's, let's dive right into it. So you come from a background that combines finance, legal training, and sales. How did networking play a role in your career? know, networking came into my career about 16 years ago now. But back then it was such an unknown and there was such a misconception as to what business networking is all about. When I got to law school, I kind of like clammed up again. You know, I went in with this huge wave of self-esteem and confidence. And then first year law school and the attorneys who are listening, it's just like Socratic method. It's scary. You're basically, you know, putting your train of thought and your opinions on the line in front of your peers, in public, in front of everybody. And you usually get embarrassed. Second year, I got a little bit more comfortable. kind of like embracing that humiliation. And then the third year, by the third year, you're just, you you couldn't shut me up. And that kind of like built the, that was like the precursor to my networking days. like years later, I got invited to the biggest networking organization in the world. Some of you may know. And it was, it reminded me a lot of Toastmasters because of the structure of the proven formula of, you know, how referral marketing is. one of the best ways to develop your business. It's better than cold calling. It's better than advertising. It's better than PR. And I drank the Kool-Aid like you wouldn't believe it. And I just liked, I embraced being a student of networking, despite the fact that I was, I'm an introvert at heart. And what happened was because of my experience in law school, I developed the same mentality. Like when you go into a networking room, what are some of the biggest fears? You don't know anybody, right? Right. You don't know anybody. Will they be assholes? Will I get along? Will they just bore me to death? You feel uncomfortable because you're there to what? Build relationships. Or some people may even think you're there to close business. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. But either way, either way, whether you're there, when you have the mindset of like building relationships or closing business, still uncomfortable for most people. And so I got to the point of this huge inflection point. in my initial networking years, where I realized that, ⁓ you need to go in with the mindset of like embracing that embarrassment, embracing that discomfort and kind of thriving off that. So you're not only expecting it to happen, but you're embracing it. You're cherishing it because you know, you have to get through that to accomplish your goals and networking. Speaking of which, what do you think the goal of networking is? For me personally, I'm interviewing you in general. know what the fuck. ⁓ so I would say the main thing is to build the right relationships with the right people. For what purpose? For more business. Make more money. Okay. Is that it? Well, no, I mean, there's a time. I love how you're fucking with me. This is great. am. I am. See, he's a true lawyer. Look at him just reverse this shit on me. I like it. Your answer is completely normal, by the way. It's what. Like 99 % of the people would say, but, know, as I drank the Kool-Aid in that first organization, I would preach networking theory based on my experiences. like developing visibility, credibility, you know, translate that into profitability. It was like this formula that it was living and breathing and eating and sleeping. And that has evolved over the years. It's not always like, you know, I'm trying to develop these business relationships over a long-term period. I'm trying to be a farmer, not a hunter. And what is it all for? Of course it's to build your business and it's to get more referrals. I have pleasantly discovered over the years, I probably derive 80 % of my new business from business networking. So I often refer to myself as a professional networker who just happens to do mortgages. Mortgages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if I hear you By developing these skills for networking, they don't only help out with your income, building up your business, but they also help you with all of your relationships, business and personal, and those blend together, right? Your professional ones also become your personal relationships. And by doing that, you are fulfilling this wonderful part of our life, which is relationships, because you're building relationships that are built on trust, not transaction, as I like to say, because the transaction is, Richard, what can you do for me today? Nothing. Fuck off. Next person. What can you do? That's just full transactional, right? Which we see people do a lot in networking events where they're like, Hey Richard, so what do you do for a living so I can really understand? if you are going to be an asset to me or not. And if you aren't, all right, I'll move on to the next person. And that's transactional, fully transactional. And it you feel dirty. Sometimes, well, it depends on how much I make, but. No, no, no. But I'm saying they are basically just qualifying you and just going in there going, okay, so what do you do? who are the clients that you work? Okay. Yeah. We're done. Yeah. You won't be able to refer me any business. Yeah. And you know what? That does work for some people. I always say like, you know, the best networkers are farmers, not hunters, but some people like to hunt and some people are really good at it. The problem is if you're looking for longer term, more consistent and reliable sources of referrals, ⁓ that's not going to work. Yeah. It's, it's like, it's a mar- networking should be a marathon, not a sprint or an iron man, which just so the viewers know, Richard is an iron man. You know how you know that? He tells you. you said it, not me. I know I did. But okay, so if we were to look at that and understand the philosophy behind that, right? These are long-term relationships that we're trying to build that will enhance not only our professional, but our personal lives. And by getting really good at that, we will have a more enriched life across the board now and well into the future, even into retirement. You know, humans are social beings, right? We hear that all the time. Yeah. But humans also love to label and compartmentalize. And so, you know, I hear that with the personality test, with the disc profile, and you know, you're in one of four categories. Humans are way more complex than that. So when basic networking or traditional networking philosophies talk about how to properly meet somebody, how to give an introduction, what to say, how to do. follow up with additional touch points. It's so much more than that. know, humans are complex and I love to find out the different facets of other people because it's interesting and you find more commonality and more overlap. And that's the beauty of, of longer term relationships is that you find out these things over time and then you can share. people within your network by making introductions and providing opportunities for other people. And for the listeners, this is gold right here because in order to do what Richard just said, you've got to be an active listener. You've got to be curious about the other people. You truly are, you know, and Richard, think you, you're a master at this. You really are. You make people feel important. You make them feel heard. Even you. Yeah, even me, but you really do. You've mastered that skill and it doesn't come across as unauthentic. It doesn't come across as fake. It comes across as I'm curious about you. I'm I literally want to know about you. If you were to look at that and go, okay, cause I know you, when you run a networking group, you're networking on a crazy level in regards to how many times, but what would you say is one of the biggest mistakes that you see lots of attorneys making when it comes to networking. it. in any profession, you always see that quid pro quo that we kind of refer to just now. I see it in real estate and finance all the time, where it's like, yeah, I'd love to work with you. And I expect a reciprocal relationship. You know, I'll give you referrals if you... give me referrals in return. who suffers in the end with that arrangement? The client does. you always feel like you have to refer this person because you're obligated to, but it ends up not being usually the best option for the client. So I hear that all the time. For attorneys, they have, in general, really challenging time taking off their attorney hat in a networking setting. So I've been in meetings that are dedicated to attorneys that I attend because I am one. And I also, I do expert testimony work by the way. Little plug, little plug. So anyway, when I attend these meetings and it's also fascinating to me if they're on zoom, I look at all the squares, not creepy or anything, just an observation. I look at all the squares and like, nobody, like one person out of 60 is smiling. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And you get, you get that person. Who's zooming straight from their desk in their office. And they're just in that mode, whether they're writing a brief, they're preparing for court. They're, you know, about to enter a deposition, who knows, but they have a challenging time relinquishing that mindset and going into networking mode. And networking mode is all about being visible, which they are. Yep. But it's also being credible. That you're showing up on time, you're showing up ready to engage, you're showing up with valuable content you can add to a meeting. And you're showing up likable. Yeah. We're in the same organization where, Provisors, where there's a relatively high barrier to entry, which means that most of the time you don't have to be really concerned about whether the person you're referring to is experienced or, you know, they know what they're doing. And so by nature of just being a member, the presumption is that you do have the experience and training and the ability to handle a referral pretty, pretty competently. And so you're. your primary goal in that setting, that networking setting is just to be liked. And a lot of attorneys go in with that scowl on their faces. I see it all the time. And it's particularly with attorneys. It's so true. You know, one of the keynote speeches that I give is on developing charisma and as a skill. always say that- It's Gary. Say that again. They call it Riz. Shut up. Madeline would be very happy with dad right now, but, you've got to have a balance between warmth and competence. And what lawyers do heavily is the competent side. I got to be competent. got to be competent. Got to be competent, but there's no time spent on being warm. And, and what they do is they lose out on the trust because they trust that they can do a good job, but they don't trust that. This would be the right fit that the person really even gives a shit because they are so cold. And I love how you had put it. They're not willing to take their attorney hat off. Like because attorneys are very adversarial. That's the whole job is I'm trying to prevent somebody of taking advantage of my client in some manner or way. Right? So they're always, they're always dueling it out boxing. Whereas networking is let's give everybody big hugs. Like It's Kumbaya, you know, hey everybody. Even though, no, that's not really true. However, that whole likeability that you were talking about is so right on. It's so right on. and one of the biggest mistakes, I agree. Like they don't use one of their biggest assets, which is their smile. Like it's so easy. Like smile, like hey. It's free! Hey! And you're more approachable when you're smiling as opposed to, don't want to go around that asshole because he's scowling all the time. And you and I see it all the time. And it's a huge mistake, I think, especially when it comes to networking. We are innately programmed to gravitate towards the smile, right? Yeah. mean, studies show like babies, they like people smile. And in the networking world, if the If it comes down to like more than one person, let's say whether it's a family law attorney, insurance person that you're trying to refer to, none of us know at any great detail who is technically the better professional to receive that referral. They're what track record, but we really don't know how well they write. We don't know like what kind of loan programs they have at any level of detail. So we make our decision based on what? Whether we like them or not, right? Whether we want to see them succeed and whether we want to really personally help them out. And I actually have a presentation that I do for, entitled like Networking for Introverts, where we talk about like, cause they love structure and they love having a plan. Right? We talked about not having a plan when you go into a networking event. And some of the really simple ⁓ strategies that you can use is just to go in. like three questions you want to ask. Yeah. First person. What are your three questions? So what do do for a living? Shut up. Just kidding. So just so everybody knows that is one of my pet peeves is when people ask that question. The reason why is because it's used all the time more than anything else. It's not going to make you memorable at all. So what's your real three questions? The first one is going to be, me how you got into the business. Okay. It tells me a lot about your professional history, maybe about your motivation and what you like and don't like, what you're good at and what, who were the key people in your life trajectory that got you into the position you are today. I love that. Okay. That's number one. And number two, if the conversation goes well. wait, wait, wait. I thought these were three conversation starters or there are three questions that go one on top the questions that you in the same conversation. Okay. Got it. Okay. Tell me how you got into the business. Yeah. Yeah. That's just one way. Of course there's others, but these are my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. The second, the second one is what are your biggest challenges right now? ⁓ I love that. And why that question? You're not necessarily limiting it to business as well. And you uncover like a ton of referral opportunities for other people, whatever they say, whatever they say, right? Most of the time you have somewhat of a path towards a solution. So I want to pause right there because this is such a great point that a lot of people don't think about is that you can help other people out with personal stuff as well as business stuff, obviously. But when you can understand their challenges, if you've got a strong network, you've got a bunch of people behind you that can help out this individual because they don't have this or they they're They're struggling with this. struggling. got somebody that can help you out, you know, with that. Now that being said, you've got to have a bench, a networking or a network behind you to be able to help them out. Because if you don't, if you literally don't know anybody and you don't know what anybody does. Yeah. And then it makes it really difficult when somebody's like, yeah, I'm really challenged in regards to data data. And you're like, sucks to be. All right. Nice to meet you. Goodbye. You know, as opposed to being of value to the other person. And I think what you're, what you, and I've seen you in action on this, what you get to is how can I add value to this person? How can I give to this other person? You don't know that unless you ask these questions, you know? And so before we get to the third question. So improvisers, tell us all the time, what do they say? The number one recommendation on how to get the most out of the organization is what? To go guest, go to other groups. And what I'm always asked is like, when I'm guesting out of state is like, I didn't know you're licensed in Illinois or New York or know, Massachusetts. And my answer is I'm not. I'm not, I'm not expanding my network necessarily to always increase ROI. There's that, there's that word again. I'm expanding it for the benefit of my existing network. you know, the silver lining of COVID was that it opened up doors to these virtual meetings. That's how we met. It is. Thank you, COVID. really is. Yeah. Thank you, COVID. it gave us the ability to make connections in areas that we never would have before. And I thought it was the greatest opportunity. was such a tickled me pink, Gary. Good God. Did you really have to use that? Because, because it was, I just thought it was so cool how like if somebody needed a family law attorney in Boston, I actually know somebody. It's not a list service, not a directory of a name is somebody actually know and I've met and I've talked to. Right. And you trust and they should trust them too. It's that transference of trust. Why referrals are so valuable. Right. Right. Yeah. And if you, I mean, There's so much value in being that center of influence within your networking world that most people don't get. Far more value in that than actually receiving referrals. Yup. I agree. Number three. Yes. Number three is what are you most looking forward to this week, this weekend, this month, this year, fill in the blank. I love that because it's forward looking. And sometimes a lot of times they will go into personal. subject matter, and then it allows you to follow up. Now, like, what do you mean by the follow up? That helps you with follow up. How? It's a relationship. Relationships don't just end after one contact, after one conversation. Okay. So that is probably the quote of the whole fucking show. Great. It only took me 35 minutes. What'd I say? those relationships, building those relationships is so key. It really is so fucking, and it's a very simple aspect of networking, right? Such an important, but a simple, I wouldn't say easy. Networking is very simple. It's not easy, but it's very simple. So if you do it again and again and you are constantly looking to get better and better at it, You'll develop just wonderful, wonderful relationships that will help you in business. will help you in personal. It'll make life more enjoyable, but also it's just key on, on how do we relate with other people and how do we get along? Like just literally as humans, because like you were saying before, we're social creatures. Introvert or extrovert, doesn't make a difference. We're social creatures. And we need to realize that and lean into that instead of just winging it because winging it. Fortunately doesn't do us much good, but if you've got like, have your three questions, tell me how you got into the business. What are some of your biggest challenges and what are you looking forward to this weekend? And I love the forward thinking when you've got that you're like, okay, I have this structure per se. Which I find with attorneys gives them more confidence when they walk into the room. Cause we all have anxiety when we walk into the room. Everybody does. Everybody does. But it's normally it's at a low level. I can overcome this. Okay. I'm a little bit nervous. Who am I going to meet? Who's going to be there? It's not debilitating. I know for some people it's debilitating that they're like, fuck this. I'm out. I'm not walking through that door. It's not for everybody. No, it's not at all. But it is totally understandable because they didn't teach us this in law school. They might have taught you a little business course, maybe how to balance your cashflow statement, but they definitely did not cover network marketing. Why would you not have a plan, have a strategy, tactics that you could utilize that fit within your strengths to do this? Yeah, I think most of the time it just comes from a lack of understanding of just basic fundamental networking. theory and that is, know, they understand I got to show up, but then what do do? Right. How do you show up? What do you say when you say it? You know, it's just part of developing that middle layer before, you know, after visibility, but before profitability, it's building your credibility or preventing your credibility from falling, which we've seen. we have to start thinking about it. Like, let's go. soon as you leave the door. Yeah. Or even before then, you know, because you got to prep for it too. But yeah, yeah. It's not when you walk through the door, you have so much other stuff, which helps with your confidence. Yeah. And you need that to be a networker. need that How many times have you and I seen inappropriate? Words, actions, whatever you want to call it in a networking setting, whether it's a meeting, like an organized meeting or a social event, you know, people have to think that you, your credibility is always at stake and that the credibility is just central to whether you're referable or not. Yep. It's so true, you know, and the other thing is drinking at networking events, you know, because you had just said, Hey, know, there's certain things you shouldn't be doing. I like how you have the wine glass. It's empty. It's got vodka in it. Anyways, but when it comes to drinking, because a lot of people do drink at networking events, most of them are drinking to lubricate themselves in regards to, okay, I feel a little bit better. Okay. I can get out there and I can start networking. Like it takes the edge off because they're so like liquid courage, liquid courage. Great. But there's a law depreciating returns, right? So, and you are a social drinker who loves wine. How do you know when to stop? Because I have seen too many times that lawyers especially will get so drunk that it ruins their reputation instantly. They'll either do stupid things, say stupid things, or just look sloppy. And then you go. Would I ever refer this sloppy drunk a litigation matter? No, I wouldn't. don't think that this, I don't know how the person is going to show up. So how are, what's your feeling about that in regards to being an alcoholic that you are? I mean, you don't realize you're an alcoholic, but you really are. ⁓ and I can say that because I am a recovering alcoholic. Isn't the definition of an alcoholic you drink alone? never drink alone. No, no, that's not, whoever said that. No. an alcoholic is somebody who is out of control with their drinking. Yeah. That ruins their lives. But, okay, so going back to drinking, what's your feeling about that? And is it like, do you have a process? I stop after two, I check myself, da da da da da, because again, you're a very social guy and a lot of... A lot of people that you network with are also very social people who love to drink. Right? Not saying that they're drunks, not saying that they're alcoholics, but where's that line for you? What a, what a question. Where's that line for me? I would think that most professionals, especially if they're experienced, you have that wherewithal to always know that you're still in a professional setting. But whether you're drinking with Thanksgiving dinner. with old college buddies, I would think that we all have enough experience with alcohol to know our limits and to apply that knowledge. Yeah. Okay. So let me push back on that. Alcohol typically makes you make bad decisions, right? So if you're inebriated, do you really, are you really thinking about, this is a professional environment. I need to conduct myself because You're already drinking and you're already going down that road where everything is a lot of fun. And I'm going to say some really horrible things and do some inappropriate actions. Yeah. I think you have to know yourself and everybody's different and everybody has different tolerances and everybody reacts differently to alcohol. And we've seen the spectrum. I'm fortunate enough to at least have that basic mindfulness of what I'm doing. Even if I have crossed that line as far as blood alcohol content, but a lot of people don't, right? And they don't see it even more scary. They don't remember it. ⁓ That's true. Yeah. And that's a real issue that they need to address. What's your advice for those people? Is to have a buddy. To have a buddy whenever they go out to kind of like watch. And to give that honest feedback about like, you know what? You're a fucking idiot last night. You really, you really need to like think about cutting off after two trains. in the network and studying, like accelerating the process of getting to know somebody. I, cause I just learned this and I love it. And it applies especially to if you're in any kind of leadership role too, whether it's in your office or in provisors or in any other capacity. But we've always heard of like frog, right? Yeah. The categories that you talk about when you're to to know somebody. Family. Or family. Relationships, occupation and goals, something like that. But I recently heard a better one. This one is called the 4 H's and it was, it came from one of the NFL coaches. And the 4 H's are history, heroes, heartbreak and hopes. So for those of you who like more structure in your coffee, lunch meetings, one-to-ones, this is something that I'm going to try and... Hopefully when I get invited back, will report about it, report on it and tell you. So I would actually challenge you on this because I think you're already doing that. Because if you look at your three questions, tell me how you got into this business. That's history, right? What are your biggest challenges? That's heartbreak. What are you looking forward to? That's hopes. So really in that first question could actually be heroes too. My parents were in it and they were a hero to me. I think, mean, obviously you're thinking I need to expand this more, have it more front of mind. But I would say those three questions freaking nail that. you knew or not. Very Very astute. Yeah. Smart. That was a test. Fuck you. You passed. passed. That was really impressive. You got it like, like that. Thank you for listening. Yeah, you're welcome. So four H's. History, heroes, heartbreak and hopes. So. Put that down everybody and yes, and actually execute them. Yeah, in your next one to one, please don't ask what do do for a living and like what the weather's like and blah, blah, all that regular bullshit. Yeah. I have a plan and it could be just as simple as the four H's, you know, go in with the four H plan and hopefully it'll turn out better as far as getting to know the other person at a deeper level. Yep. Because if you do what Richard just said, You're not going to wing it. You're not just going to show up. I'm smart enough. I'll figure it out. You actually will have a plan. again, what Richard was saying, you don't have to be an extrovert. You don't have to be obnoxious. He's an introvert, which isn't surprising, but I find most great networkers are introverts because they're great at asking questions and being active listeners. And they've got, if they have the right mindset, it's amazing because like you had said, Humans are complex. Relationships are complex. They're not all going to be the same. That can be really taxing. It can be really overwhelming. But I think if we're really looking at what are we trying to accomplish here and how can we build up our network so that we can help other people out on a regular basis. And then in order to help out other people, we need to be asking questions that really gets to know them. And using your three questions of how'd you get, how'd you get into this business? What are your biggest challenges and what are you looking forward to this weekend? It hits the four H's of history, heroes, breaks and hopes. That is a fantastic way to get into networking. See everybody? This is the reason why I had this fucking clown on here. So Dick, I mean, Richard, thank you. You know what? I'm not even charging. You're welcome. Yes. Yes. So, mean, truly, this is hugely valuable and being a group leader, you see it all the time. You see those mistakes being made, but you also see what people are doing great and then adapting to that, you know, and I know you're a student of it. So thank you for coming on. cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. Gary, I have an endless amount of interests and hobbies. That's why when, When people talk about retirement, I have friends who make a lot of money, a ton of money, can retire early. The fascinating part is that when I ask them, well, what are you going to do in retirement? They have no answer. And one of the things that I feel extremely fortunate and blessed to know to have an answer, many answers about what I want to do. And the great thing is that I'm already doing a lot of them. Which is good, right? That also helps you to be a better networker because you have something to can talk about and that's the beauty of networking. Yeah. And that's my whole point is that networking is life. Yeah, it really is. Networking is life. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And if you want to get ahold of Richard, because he's freaking brilliant when it comes to mortgages too, not just networking, I'm to put all of his contact information in the show notes, contact him, follow him on LinkedIn. And Instagram is amazing. thank you. Thank you, my friend. I really appreciate you. Thank you, Gary. That's it for today's episode of Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me. And remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.