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All Blacks Squad Shock! Bulls Disappointment & Boks Season Begins · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  I'm so excited about this all-black squad, man. I'd be worried if I was Victor. I think the talking point is who didn't get selected? Rico Ioane. The big surprise for me is Duplessis not being there. He led that Hurricanes team. He was in everything. And I'm still convinced that we've got a squad that can win a World Cup and beat South Africa who are setting the standards. I mean, they've tried, let's say, McKenzie and Barrett. For me, that's the one combination that's not working, the two of them together.
• 0:27
  The Bulls had 21 turnovers and they lost five lineups. And I mean, if you give the ball to lengthen 26 times when it was your opportunity to attack, then you can't be in the game. You have a dream and you have a nightmare. Your dream is it went like the Hurricanes and your nightmare is it went like the Chiefs.
• 0:49
  Welcome to Rugby Rivals. And first all-black team of the season has just been named. And a few surprises, JK. Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable, really. I think the talking point is who didn't get selected, really. I think the biggest one's Duplicy Karifi, who's probably had...
• 1:10
  his best season, then Rico Ioani. So they're two massive omissions for me. I mean, obviously the new guys,
• 1:23
  deserve to be there. They've played the Southern Cegna. Finanagofu has got on there from the wing. He's been outstanding all season. Moody as well. So those guys probably deserve it coming from the majority of the Hurricanes, basically about 11 of them in the squad. But, yeah, I think Duplicy Karifi not getting in and leaving Rico Ioane out after...
• 1:49
  You know, he's probably the first one that's missed out after a financial sabbatical. So they're the big talking points for me. Yeah, for sure. But do you think Victor's scared? Huh? Say again? He's scared? No, no, no, no. Yeah, it's interesting. It's funny. I mean, I don't know the young players that well. I watched the Hurricanes game and I don't know. It's the two wingers in from the Hurricanes. They were outstanding. And I mean, that whole Hurricanes team...
• 2:18
  It's just unbelievable, I must say. The big surprise for me is Duplessis not being there. I mean, he led that Hurricanes team. He was in everything. Unbelievable on the ball as well. So, yeah, big surprise for me that he's not there. And it will be interesting who's going to be their first choice team. I think that's a big goal for the All Black selectors. I think love's been outstanding. So that will be very interesting.
• 2:45
  They talked about form and it's interesting you talk about duplicy, the only thing that I think –
• 2:55
  I could read into what Dave Rene said was that Cegna, and what an amazing story that is, you know, coming down from Germany, going to school, you know, coming to the Blues, he's been outstanding all season. Dave Rene, I don't know if you can read too much into this, said we think he's going to be a very good seven, right? So it's really interesting to see, A, where they play their captain, their new captain, Ade Savia, congratulations to him as well. I think he'd be a great leader.
• 3:24
  So maybe Duke Bessie, they're saying, well, you know, is he just playing one position where Cigna can play possibly all three? But pretty harsh, pretty harsh. Yeah, I mean, we see there's hybrid players now, but I still think in a test match you need, especially open-siders, you need a guy that's specialised in that, that's over the ball, even on attack, I mean, that cleans those rocks and is just everywhere. So, yeah, big surprise for me.
• 3:54
  Yeah, who do you think the 10 is? Who's the starting 10, J.K.? Well, I mean, he spoke about, we know how good Bowden is. We know how good McKenzie is. You know, you've just got to give Lava start. In form 10 of the Super Rugby, you know, both him and Sir Graham Henry spoke about form. I think you have to start him. I think you have to play him.
• 4:18
  you either play them against France or you play them against Italy. But I think you've got to play these guys. I think when you look back retrospectively on last year, we needed to take a bit more risk. And I think I often talk about South Africa and how they lead the way often. I think this...
• 4:39
  this changing of the teams is now acceptable and guys have to really step into that space. So I think Dave Rennie will take a little bit of that on board. I think he'll go, okay, if I'm going to play on form, it's no use picking on form in the extended squad if you're not going to pick on form for your first squad. So I think Dave Rennie will do that. So I think he'll get a start probably against France.
• 5:03
  There's not a lot of new All Blacks in. It really is, you know, there are obviously some new caps and a new captain, but at the end of the day, it's a pretty settled squad. You know, most of the guys in that squad name today have got test match experience.
• 5:18
  Yeah, look, I looked at the squad and I thought about that too, Ricardo. And, you know, we spoke about this, I think, you know, with what happened last year. And I'm still convinced that we've got a squad that can be incredibly competitive and win a World Cup and beat South Africa who are setting the standards, right? Yeah.
• 5:36
  I thought that last year. I still think that this year. We've got some injuries in Fabian Holland and Scott Barrett who were our starting locks last year. They'll come back into consideration. So our locking department, which I was a little bit concerned about 18 months ago, is now pretty rich. Our loose forwards, like Victor mentioned before, which is a real specialised position, I think we've got some good depth there now.
• 6:03
  First five is probably the question, and I think that's why you've got to play Ruben. So I still think we've got a really settled, mature side. When you leave guys like Duplassie Kirifi out, and when you leave guys like Rico Ioane out, and that's, I mean, where is off a Tunganafasi? I noticed he wasn't also written in the squad, so we left him out. Emoni Narara, he is unbelievable.
• 6:33
  but injury prone this year, so that's probably left him out, but, you know, unbelievable ability. So there's still a lot of guys that have been left out. I mean, Victor, you look at the team different to us. I mean, we look at the team and see where we're going to be successful, but you look at it and see where our weaknesses are. Where do you think, where are our weaknesses in this squad? I think there's certainly a lot of weaknesses in the All Blacks. Like I said, I mean,
• 6:58
  You guys go on as if there's big problems. You only lost three games last year. We lost two. So it's so close. I think it's all about, and that's for me, for me it's almost in those key positions. And again, I go back to 10, 15, actually more as a combination. I mean, they've tried, let's say McKenzie and Barrett. For me, that's the one combination that's not working the two of them together, if I was an all-black
• 7:26
  I'm a springbok so they can keep playing there. But if I was an All Black selector, that's the one thing that I just felt it doesn't work. So, either they need to get a solid 15 and pick someone there all the time and they can play around in the 10s. But, I mean, you guys also know Mohanga is coming back, so he'll be back in there quite soon. So,
• 7:47
  I mean, if Love doesn't get a chance very soon, I don't know when he will get a chance. And then the other thing was actually your loose-geo combination. That's the one, although they're all great players, it just feels like you haven't got the balance right of who's playing where. So, and again, for me, I think a guy like Duplessis on the open side flanker will have a big impact. Will they pick, because, I mean, Titi is still there, will they move?
• 8:17
  Savia to open sider again will be interesting to see. Yeah, I see Satiti as... I agree with this hybrid type of player, but I don't believe in having hybrids all over the place.
• 8:32
  No. You know, and I think with a loose forward, I love a loose forward trio where you've got a big man, you know, a number eight that's getting over, a number seven, sorry, that's getting over the ball. So I do see Satiti as one of those number eights that can carry the ball from a scrum. What we need to be able to do too is understand, I mean, very interesting victor over the weekend,
• 8:58
  Once again, the scrum. I thought the Chiefs scrum probably didn't perform as well as what it could have against the Hurricanes scrum. Although I hate to admit this, the scrum is pretty important, which makes you number eight. If we're getting dominance...
• 9:14
  really important off the back. But also, if we're under pressure, if you can get a number eight that can pick the ball up and actually get over the advantage line when your scrum is possibly struggling or when you might have to hit and get it out quick are really important. So I think that Satiti just has that little bit more dynamicism, is that a word? To his game, you know? Yeah. Really big idea then.
• 9:41
  I think seven, mate. You know, I really do think he has the, you know, I think he's a seven. I think he's a seven every day of the week.
• 9:52
  I like him carrying the ball, obviously. I like him being out a bit wider. But if you do that, and this is what we often talk about, don't we, Victor, about that balance, you know? If you have two guys that are going to be relatively in the loose, then one of them's got to be really in the dark and dirty, right? And so you need a six that's going to be in the dark and dirty, hitting rucks. You know, and a lot of people...
• 10:15
  you know when you talk about someone like Sam Kane I think Sam Kane had this incredibly ability to understand when he needed to be a tight loose forward and I think in the last few years of his career he really did that duty work which is not seen by very many people except the squad you know the squad loved those people so I think it's that balance you know that really hard worker that
• 10:38
  At six, it's going to do a dirty work, also be a line-out option. A number eight that's really dynamic can get you over the advantage line. And then a seven that's going to be doing...
• 10:47
  all that sort of getting to the breakdown early being really annoying. If you're not quick enough to your support play, then he's going to be all over it. So I think that that's the balance you're looking for, and I'm sure the selectors will then go, well, who's the best for that? And they might go, well, Artie's the best at that at number eight. So Artie can probably do both those things, and Anton Cegna, who's been selected, he can play both those positions as well.
• 11:15
  What was interesting across all these finals, and we'll get to the Bulls in a minute, Victor, because I know you can't wait. No, we don't ask you. We can just go to the Springbok straight. No, no, we can talk about the Bulls. We need to get into that in some bit. Go to my Springbok chairs, y'all. Forget about the Bulls.
• 11:33
  Springbok senior. You can't forget about the Bulls because we're here to remind you. But one of the things that's been interesting, all the major finals have been really won by attacking sides. You know, there's been a lot. I mean, obviously it's not test football and it's different, but is this a sign that attacking football is coming back into vogue?
• 11:54
  Yeah, well, I think giving away the ball. Sorry, Victor. I think giving away the ball now with teams that can now hold on to 14 or 12 rucks.
• 12:03
  So I think the kicking game is still a big part of it, but more of an attacking kicking game, Ricardo. You know, the cross kicks. You know, Mickey Byrne, who used to be the kicking coach, and also I had a long career with Mickey as my assistant, he spoke about, you know, a kicking game that's going to break down the defences to put especially the back three into two mines, you know, kicking onto grass. So for me, I hope the death of the high ball
• 12:32
  especially the box kick is a thing of the past. While I don't think it's going to be completely that, if you have a team that's competent at catching the high ball then you can give the ball away for long periods of time and I've noticed that shift, Victor, in the last little while where teams that are hanging on to the ball and being more creative with their kicking game seem to be getting the success. Yeah, so I'm not quite there yet. I mean, I had a big argument with
• 13:02
  some of the old Stormer players in the studio after the Bulls game. And they were also like, why don't we have the skill set of a Leinster or whatever. And I said, that wasn't it. The Bulls had 21 turnovers and they lost five lineouts. And I mean, if you give the ball to Leinster 26 times when it was your opportunity to attack, then you can't be in the game. I mean, it doesn't matter how you play, how you defend, you just won't be in that game.
• 13:29
  As well, I think if you look at the Leinster game, the Bulls got a soft defence. If you don't get that line speed with the skill set that the players have these days, you're in trouble. I mean, that's the one thing in New Zealand as well. There's no team with really a hard outside-end defence. So it always looks like the attack is winning. But I think once you get against the team, you're in trouble.
• 13:52
  Defenses like South Africa, like France, like Lenz at the moment under Jacques Nienhaber, it's a complete different game. Then the attacking kicks come into play. Then the box kicks come into play because you need to play from broken field, from set pieces just to heart. There's very little time and very little space. So you need to use that attacking kicking game as well.
• 14:15
  So maybe the question's different. Maybe it's not attacking, but the last World Cup, there was a lot of talk around it was best not to have the ball. It was best to give the ball to the opposition and suffocate them and live off their mistakes. Do you think that's changing? Do you think now teams want the ball again? I think, Ricardo... It depends on the... Sorry, you go, Victor. You go, Victor. It depends on the area of the field. I mean, rugby changes, but it doesn't change. I think between your own...
• 14:44
  22 and the 10-metre lines, there's opportunity to have a go because they need to cover the backfield. I think between the two 10-metre lines, I think it's still the same. Play one, two, three phases. If you don't get momentum, you need to kick the ball. You don't want to make mistakes there because then all of a sudden the territory goes from there to your own 22 or you defending. So you want to keep the pressure, play that tennis game, keep them under pressure, and they're off. The way how you do it might be different.
• 15:14
  I mean, I think the spring box and a lot of the other teams will still keep going with a box kick because there's no blocking these days. It's a 50-50. If you get that ball back, there's great opportunity to attack from. But I mean, if you play against a defence like the box that will be hard from outside in, then I think the attacking kicks on the front foot, cross kicks, those are the kicks that will put the spring box under pressure.
• 15:41
  Depends on what defence you play, but those areas. And then again, once the teams get into the 22, it's so hard to keep them out. And the best teams, once they get to that 22, they get points on the board. So it's all about keeping your position out of your 22, not giving them opportunities there.
• 16:00
  Yeah, look, Riccardo, I think that 26 turnovers in that final with the Bulls, maybe they tried something or tried to be a bit more expansive when they hadn't trained for it. So my answer is when you turn the ball over...
• 16:15
  And I know five of those were line outs. But when you turn the ball over, that is when you're most at risk. So one thing you can't do nowadays, I don't think, is you can't just have one game plan, Riccardo. You can't go out there and say, we're going to attack. Because if you're going to play South Africa, France...
• 16:31
  You've got to go out there and it's a bit of a chess game with contact. I always say rugby is chess with contact, right? So you've got to have the ability to change up your tactics. Now, you're going to go out with a game plan, don't get me wrong, but you also need to be able to go to a more expansive game if you need to. You need to put the...
• 16:50
  the kicks away if you haven't had a lot of possession. So I think most of these sides now, and I think the biggest thing that would concern me, and I've often spoken about this, is when South Africa get that balance, when they've got a little bit more of that expansive game in their DNA. We know what their DNA is and we know they're going to play to that, but it's when they can add to that DNA, and I think that's why...
• 17:15
  when Russie got Tony Brown involved, and I think we've seen balances of that. They got it wrong a couple of times last year, didn't they, you know, Victor, when they probably were a bit too expensive. But once they got back to that balance and having, you know, that very aggressive...
• 17:30
  forward front foot you know um scrum line out game the south africans they're hard to beat anyway but if they can add that expansive game and i think that's what the all blacks have always wanted to play we probably start with a bit more of an expansive game and want to run people off their feet but you've also got to be able to go to that tight game and you've got to be able to pick those games but what you do need to have to do is you need to to go back to your dna when you're under pressure and i think that's when you seem to get under pressure
• 17:58
  Just to get on that kicking game, if you go back to that golden area of the All Blacks, they always had more kicks per game than the opposition. But it was all attacking kicks. It was on the front foot, playing and then putting it through, keeping the pressure on. It's not offensive kicks. And I think sometimes in South Africa, and I think that's what happened with the Bulls on the weekend,
• 18:21
  Although there was a lot of kicks, everything was defensive kicks. There was nothing on the run, on the front foot. And again, when they go for the box kicks, there's no attacking shape on the other side. So, Leinster were falling back. The ball did get on the ground, but they won all the scraps around that. Because there was no attacking shape, they were allowed to be able to back the
• 18:42
  and be around the ball. So it's all about a balance and getting that right. Because, JK, we always think back wistfully to the 80s and go, oh, it was so much, you know, defences were not as flat and there was so much space. But you did spend a lot of time chasing kicks from Grant Fox.
• 19:00
  Yeah, mainly long ones. I don't think that, you know, we didn't do a lot of box kicking from the base of the scrum. And I didn't have to field too many high balls, right? That wasn't something that was in our game because back in our day, you know, Foxy would kick long and he'd try and find grass. So we were trying to win the territory game. I mean, that's completely changed. Now I think those 50-50, you know,
• 19:25
  kicks and stuff like that. So, you know, for me, there's a real balance to, you know, the kicking game. I think Victor's right. The attacking kicking game I love. You know, those cross kicks, the little ones in behind, bringing the wingers up.
• 19:42
  taking them back so that you can run. So for me, it's that whole combination. You can't just have one game plan anymore, I don't think. Can you explain that to our listeners slash viewers? We're actually, you can listen to us on Spotify, which is the podcast, or you can watch us on YouTube, just so you know. But we talk a lot about how we can use kicks to shape their defence to then attack. Can one of you explain that?
• 20:10
  Yeah, so let me give you a simple one. So Victor's spoken about what I call closing the gate, and that's an outside-in defence, right? So if you're going to run to the midfield, then what happens is the outside wing will come
• 20:23
  take an outside angle in and try and shut the game off, leave his man and close the gate, right? So when you see that happening, what you might see is the kick pass. So the kick pass then – and what happens is so that winger that's been thinking about, oh, I'm going to close the gate because that's what my defensive coach wants me to do, then all of a sudden –
• 20:46
  the opposition kick just in behind his back and he's got a risk that his opposition wing is going to catch it and score, then all of a sudden he's probably going to take a few yards to try and cover both, right? And so those few yards, then he gets into two mines. So the attack and kicking game creates the opportunity to put a defensive system and the people in that defensive system into two mines.
• 21:10
  And so, you know, Mickey Byrne used to love manipulating a defensive structure. So if you keep kicking behind the guy's back because he's up as a winger, then he will creep and he will take a bit more distance to try and cover that. And that's what you're trying to create. And then the idea is to then run into that space so then he gets into two mines. So that's just one, you know, one sort of –
• 21:35
  One sort of idea. The other thing that they don't do a lot either, Victor, is with the 28s, often the wingers drop back. The idea of kicking a 28, which is the box kick, was to drop the wingers back, but then you should attack that space. We don't see them attacking a lot of that space. So, yeah, I think it's the manipulation of a defensive system using the kicking game is what you try and do it for.
• 22:03
  And Victor, you got a chance. Look, we got out of the balls pretty quickly. You've got a chance to see the Springboks. They won. Yeah, it was good. Look, I don't think the opposition were too great. They probably had a very good week leading up to the game. And it's always fun, I mean, playing against the Barbarians. But I think it was nice to see some new kids getting opportunity. Yeah.
• 22:31
  I mean, a few new players in the team. Riley Norton, captain of the Under-21 team, really doing well. So, yeah, it's nice to see. And it's nice to see some of the old hands. I mean, Peter Stefft-Tor, I think it's the first game in six months that he played. And he didn't look too bad. So, pretty excited about the upcoming games for the boys. It is gold dust, Ricardo. It's absolute gold dust for the Springboks.
• 23:01
  Probably a little bit unfair on everyone else, right? Because we've all had to go and, you know, we're going straight into France and then into our test matches. But having a game like that is just so good. Get out, have a run, try your system. There's not a lot of pressure on it. I didn't actually see that game, so I don't know what it was like. But, you know, great for them to have a hit out before the test series, you know?
• 23:24
  But is it when it was such a one-sided affair? I mean, do you get a false sense of complacency from it, Victor? I don't think so. I think that was really just a run out. And I mean, there's a lot of players getting opportunities, having a go. So I think, I mean, under Rossi, they won't really get. I think he'll be very upset with the 30 points that were scored against him. I think he'll be pretty...
• 23:52
  hard into them. But you know, in a game like that, it's also very difficult if it's so easy on an attack, just to slip away a little bit on the fence. So I've heard they've worked really hard. There was a podcast the other day where they spoke to Ox and he said he hasn't worked that hard in a springboard camp. So they're drilling them. They're getting ready. I mean, we're starting against England. It's not going to be easy. So,
• 24:19
  It's a big start in two weeks' time. And, you know, we had some great news last week, which was the announcement that ClipDrift's come on board as our sponsor, one of our sponsors, great partner. And obviously, you know, it's a great sponsorship because we've really tested them thoroughly before they came on board. I mean, Victor's been testing them now for like 30-odd years until he was comfortable that they were the right time. Yeah.
• 24:45
  What's that? Right, Prada. I enjoyed it a lot this weekend as well. Yeah, well, that's good. You know, it's really important that you keep checking and doing that quality control for us. That's really important. We really appreciate the effort that you're putting in, the sacrifices that you're making.
• 24:59
  But, you know, one of the great things about Clippies and Coke is it just reminds you of great moments, you know. And I just want each week we're going to look back at each of you. I'm going to ask each of you to choose a great moment from the weekend, something that just...
• 25:17
  You know, it'd be a great bit of play. It could be a great player. It can be a mistake. But just your Clippy's moment of the weekend. And we'll start with you, Victor. There we go. What was your moment of the weekend? Go to Jokers first. I need to think about this. Mine's really easy, actually, because when you think about a final, how often does everything go so well?
• 25:45
  If you think about the Chiefs-Hurricanes game, if you were dreaming a final, and I've been in heaps of finals, what you dream of is two things. You have a dream and you have a nightmare. Your dream is it went like the Hurricanes, and your nightmare is it went like the Chiefs. So actually...
• 26:02
  My highlight was a final where everything went right for one team and that was the Hurricanes. Like it could not probably have got better. You couldn't have seen a final and gone, gee, we could have done anything different. And I think that has been my highlight. Not so much for the Chiefs. The Chiefs will be going, that is your biggest nightmare. That's what you lie awake at night worrying about is that happening. So that was my highlight, just the Hurricanes absolutely nailing a final and probably could not do any more.
• 26:33
  And Victor, what was your clip with 9-0? I'm going to go for highlight next week. I'm going to go for disappointment. And I think for me, the Bulls going out, I mean, they've got this great opportunity, they had momentum, and somehow it just felt like they didn't want to,
• 26:52
  have a go at it. They were just nowhere. I mean, even when they went down, I was waiting for substitutes to come, just do something different, and they just kept on almost doing the same things that didn't work. So, yeah, it's a pity, because I think it's the fourth final, the Blues were in, still no victory, and I mean, if you get to a final, there's one go, you need to have a go at it. If things don't happen your way, then that's it, but
• 27:21
  at least throw a bunch or two. Good point. And look, at the end of the day, I think our partnership with ClipDrift is one that is very appropriate, fits this show very well. And as I say, I really appreciate all the effort you're putting in, Victor, to make sure that you really test that product very thoroughly before you let it pass the show.
• 27:44
  I can't wait to get into my testing with Victor to get to learn how to pour it. Just let me pour it and not yourself. I'll pour it for you. You love it. Yeah. You can use your own fingers. I want you smart fingers.
• 27:59
  All right, that's another episode of Rugby Rivals. We're building up to one hell of a year where, you know, we're being nice to each other, but it's getting close and closer to quite a bit more vitriol and sort of less friendship. And then we can have some respect at the end of it, but that will be right at the end of it, I think. I'd be like, I'm so excited about this All Black squad, man. I'd be worried if I was Victor. Let's just leave it at that.
• 28:28
  Waiting for you, JK. Bye.