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Episode 1: I Changed My Mind About These 3 Things · RESHAPED

• Aaron: Okay, welcome back to the Reshaped Podcast. You're here with Aaron, and this is the first official episode. So episode one. The last episode I did was kind of a pilot episode, episode zero, where basically I just introduce myself and basically talk about how the podcast came to be and the goals and the vision for the pod. So if you haven't listened to that, definitely go listen to that as it sets kind of a basic framework and foundation for who I am and and what the podcast is preferably going to be about. but just in case you didn't know, this is the Reshape podcast where the aim is to bring about Christian formation through thoughtful examination and conversation. That's what we're trying to do. we just want to be reshaped into the likeness of Jesus more and more. And I think that happens as we think about things carefully. scripture, what the world's putting at us, counteracting that with scripture. and also we learn and get reshaped through conversation, listening to people with different perspectives than us, people who have maybe similar perspectives and similar convictions, but we can think about it more deeply and and explore those things more. but either way, no matter what perspective you hear, I think it's really helpful because you have to go back and re examine your own beliefs and your own convictions and see if there's any area that you need to maybe think about more and perfectly the goal is just to become more and more. Jesus. So today on episode one, I thought it's only appropriate if I start with myself and talk about three areas that I personally been reshaped in in my life as a Christian. I think it's only appropriate that that's the very first episode that I talk about since this is about being reshaped. And so I guess before I go into talking about the three areas that I've been reshaped in, I think it's helpful to start off with a framework of I guess how I categorize certain doctrines and beliefs because the areas I'm gonna talk about are theological things, but also I guess ideological things about how I view certain areas of of church and things like that. so I just just set this framework very basically and this is not new, for some of us we've heard this before, but basically I like to think about things and a lot of people like to think about areas of Christianity in terms of doctrine and in terms of belief in two separate categories or two categories. Basically one category you would have what's called salvation issues. and these salvation issues are things that are essential to believe doctrinally and essential to get right basically in order to be able to call yourself a Christian. that you know that if you did If you got any of these things wrong, it'd be maybe a little bit trickier and hard to call you a Christian. So that's the salvation issues. The second category and the on the other category is what we would call non salvation issues. And these are areas of Christianity that are you know, if you don't get those things right and there's a lot of different, you know, perspectives on them, it doesn't affect your salvation. It wouldn't affect you being a Christian and being saved. So you have salvation issues, things that you should get right and should get correct because it would affect your salvation and Yeah, where you stand with Christ and then the non-salvation issues, which are things that are up for debate. People kind of call them Romans fourteen issues, areas of discretion and liberty. so I guess salvation issues would be things like, and it's limited it's only limited to not limited just these things, but things like the deity of Christ, things like Jesus dying for our sin, physically resurrecting from the grave, that Jesus is the only way to be saved. And he's the only way that you can receive salvation and forgiveness. So those are those would be kind of salvation issues. Like if you got those things wrong, it would be very questionable, to to to be able to call you a Christian and therefore it'd probably affect your salvation and if you are saved. And then the non salvation issue areas would be things like things like maybe like church structure, the gifts of the spirit, what those things are, eschatology, where you land in terms of your, you know, r the return of Christ and what that looks like. ministry structure, things like women in ministry, you know, what are the roles that women can have in the church, those kinds of things. And and and by saying they're non-salvation issues, it it's it's it's not trying to say they're not in they're non-important. Okay. They're they're definitely important things. They definitely affect your discipleship and your walk with Christ, but you would still be in that. Yeah, you'd still be in the family of Christendom and of Christianity. Okay. So those are the two kind of categories, salvation issues, non-salvation issues. good ways to think about things. And so when you're having discussions with people, it's good to think about, okay, this disagreement that we have or this these different viewpoints that we have, are we talking about things that are salvation issues or are we talking about things that are non-salvation issues? And depending on what you are talking about may determine how strongly you might engage that that conversation. So I want to caveat this though with the point that there, depending on the Christian tradition that you're in, certain traditions and certain denominations would place different things in each category of what is a salvation issue and what is not. So for instance, and I hope this is along the correct lines, but like high church traditions like you know, the Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Catholic Church, they would who have a very, very, very high view of the sacraments, which we we all should, I think, but very, very high view of the sacraments like Baptism and the Eucharist, which is the communion, they would place particularly those sacramental things as in the salvation category. Whereas I think perhaps a Protestant, the low churches wouldn't necessarily categorize put those things in the salvation issue category, the high church traditions might. So for instance, like the Eucharist and the communion, whether you believe in something like the real real presence that take the real presence view or the symbolic view, which is what a lot of Protestants take, I'm not saying all, but you know, we if if you take a symbolic view of the communion that it's not literally h that g it's not literally Jesus' blood and and body, then that the bread and the wine isn't Jesus' literal blood and body or the real presence isn't in there, you that that'd be okay. Like you'd still be Christian, that'd be fine. But for the for the high churches, that would be a very, very serious thing and and you'd probably that's a that's a salvation issue. okay, and so even things like baptism as well, baptism being essential for salvation, the high high churches think of very strong view on that that baptism is essential to s salvation. You need to be baptized to be saved. my tradition, I'm not in a high church church. I'm in a Protestant evangelical non-denominational church, but we take that view as well that baptism is essential for salvation. And I'll talk a little bit about that in a little in a little bit. but again, different traditions will put certain things in different categories categories and that's that's that's just how it goes. and and we've got to flesh those things out. Okay, now that I have those things kind of that's kind of covered and I will probably bring those things up late in different podcasts for sure as we talk about different issues and engage certain ideas. let's go get into it. Let's get into it. Let's talk about the three areas that I have been reshaped in. And I would say that all three of these things are in the non salvation issues camp. Okay. It might some of it might bleed into a bit of the salvation issues stuff, but I would say that most of it is if not all of it, is basically non salvation issues. So again, doesn't mean it's not important. It's just I don't think if I got this wrong, if I was in a certain place and then I changed my position or I changed my view, I don't think it would affect my salvation either way. Okay, let's talk about the three areas. So I'm gonna list them and then we'll go into them in a bit more detail. So the first area that I've changed my mind in and being reshaped in, number one, is the area of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. Okay, that's the first one. The second one is my view or how I view other church denominations. And thirdly, is my view on who are the church gatherings for primarily. So who are the meetings of the body of the Christ, the the gatherings that the churches have, that church has, that the churches will have it, you know, Sundays, Wednesdays, midweek, whatever, who are they primarily for? So miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, view of other church denominations and who are the church gatherings primarily for? Okay, let's get into it. So firstly, let's talk about the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, this is definitely quite can be quite controversial depending on your tradition. But the gifts, when it comes to the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, there are it's there's a spectrum of views, which is basically all areas of Christianity. It's always on a spectrum. You can be one end, other end, or somewhere sliding in between. But the two basic views of on the spectrum of the area of miraculous gifts of Holy Spirit, Is on one side you have what is called cessationism or you are a cessationist, and on the other end of the spectrum you have what's called continuationism or continuist or continuationist. And basically what the cessationist view is on one side of the spectrum, the cessationist view is that basically the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, things like speaking in tongues, prophecy, revelation, healing, that the those miraculous gifts of the spirit ceased or stopped at the dying out of the last apostle. Okay, so that's kind of the that's kind of the view. And then the continuationist view, obviously, is that is the opposite. So basically that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, all those things I mentioned and more, they continue till today and will not stop or cease until the return of Christ in the second coming. So those are the two views cessationism and continuationism. Now my church and I world I grew up with strongly is the view of cessationism. So my church is generally cessationist. Again, this is just a general thing. There are definitely people that would be in it this is all views on like all different topics. Like just because your church is a certain way, there's not gonna not there's maybe sometimes diff individuals that might not hold that view. It's just in a general sense. So my church generally holds a cessationist view, and with good reason. like all the arguments are they're pretty sound, they're pretty good. until I looked into and then you probably tell where I'm going. but you know, I I grew I you know, being around Christianity, you hear about all these you start hearing about the different miraculous gifts. Like you hear about tongues and prophecy and healing and obviously my church, I don't see that on a regular basis. and so my understanding because of the cessationist position that I hold or I held I would just think all those things are fake. So I'd see things in the charismatic churches, people speaking in tongues and shall blah blah blah blah blah or like people getting healed, you know, with a whack of a the a jumper. you know, these these these different kinds of guys on the T on TV and all these things. I'd be very, very, very skeptical. And I actually think that's a good thing about being sceptical in some senses, but I would just say everything's fake. Everything is fake because my viewers all this all those gifts have ceased. So there's no speaking in tongues. There's no like prophecy. The Bible's the Bible is finalized. The canon has been has been finalized and sealed. With there's no more prophecy happening. There's no gifts of healing. You know, like people going around touching people's handkerchiefs or shadows and stuff like that's not happening. It's it's all gonna be fake. Anyway, that's definitely the view that I had and I was pretty strong. I've I taught it too. that that's what I held. but in twenty twenty, obviously during COVID, that was a very tricky time for everyone. don't want to go back. Though some things good came from it, like working from home, which I get to do. But yeah, having all that time in COVID, I thought, man, these are these are the times I can just study stuff out and work through things and actually really was the beginning of this idea of reshape, getting reshaped. Not the podcast, but just that's where I really began to get reshaped in a lot of things. And this why I mentioned the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit is the first one is because this area of changing my of being reshaped in in my in my view of this really s was the first domino to fall in being open to all of the things that I can be reshaped in. And so twenty twenty, coming back, twenty twenty, I wanted to study a whole bunch of stuff. And so I thought, man, you know what, let's let's let's study this out. Let's study the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let's see what the views are and how they hold up. and so I did a lot of time I spent a lot of time, reading book reading some books, particularly the book called Gifts of the Spirit by Derek Prince. It's a pretty and pretty good book. I kinda smashed that book pretty quickly. watching videos, watching debates, reading articles, all that kind of stuff. And look, a lot of smart people on both sides, and this is always the thing about these different types of things, is that you're gonna have very, very smart people on both sides of the spectrum, on all areas of the spectrum that hold views and you still gotta make a decision on on where you stand if you'd like. And basically with the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit, the basic hinge verse or kind of the key hinge verse is first Corinthians thirteen, verse eight to ten, where Paul writes to the church in Corinth and he's talking about love. Yeah. But he says this in first Corinthians thirteen, verse eight. He says, Love never fails, but where there are prophecies, they will cease. Where there are tongues, they will be stilled, where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. And so that phrase there in verse ten, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. Everything hangs on what someone views or thinks the word completeness is referring to. Okay? Because it seems like logically, whenever that completeness thing comes, what is in part being in contextually the prophecies, the tongues and knowledge, those things will pass away. So it all hangs on what the completeness is. And so the cessationist view is that the completeness, the Greek word for completeness there is this word teleos, which just means yeah, mature or complete, basically. And what the cessationists think that the completeness refers to, the teleos thing refers to is the word of God. Or the can the scriptures basically. The scriptures, the canonized New Testament, the finalization of the New Testament, the closing of the New Testament, because the New Testament is the Word of God. and they they make a link to James one twenty-five, where James, the half brother of Jesus, is writing about the word, about, you know, listening and obeying the word. And he says, But whoever James one twenty-five he says, but whoever looks intently into the perfect law, and that's the same Greek word teleos, so whoever looks intently into the perfect law. That gives freedom and continues in it, not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it, they will be blessed in what they do. And so the connection is made that okay, so the teleos thing from First Corinthians 13 is the teleos thing that James is talking about, which is the perfect law, which is the Bible. And so that's what they would hold. That the t the teleos, the completeness is referring to the scriptures, the finalizing and the closing of the word of God. And therefore, once that once the word of God was finalized and completed, that would mean that there is no more need for those miraculous gifts anymore because we have it all completed in the Word of God. The continuationist view of completeness and what the Teleos thing is, is referring to Jesus' second com coming. So when Jesus returns. And so the logic is pretty simple where basically the the the prophecies, the tongues, all those things will pass away when Jesus returns at the second coming. So, up until I studied the cess I stu like studied out the cessationist view, you know, it all made sense to me, right? That that that yeah, the Bible the Bible comes, it's canonized, it's established, there's no more need for the miraculous gifts because all we need is in the Bible. All we need is in the scriptures. And I believe that. I do believe that scriptures are more than sufficient. and I got you know, I I knew all the a lot of the arguments kind of well, right? The idea that the gifts and the miracles were kind of heightened and that they're there. there's a pattern that God uses that when his prophets are there and when God's communicating a message through the prophets, that miraculous gifts and miracles accompany the prophet or accompany the messenger to confirm the sign or confirm the message of the messenger that that that God has sent. Right. Hebrews two, verse three to four talks about that. Okay, and then, you know, the the idea of y not everyone does miracles right in in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 30. So it's not just something everyone can do. God used it for a time for a specific purpose. And I believe that's absolutely true in in the sense that that God does use certain things in a certain purpose, for a certain purpose. and so th those are good, those are good, but as I again, as I but I as I began to read and study and think about things logically, you know, they they sound like good arguments, but I think where I struggled was that I I really struggled to believe that completeness or the teleos thing, completeness referred to the finalization and the canonization of the New Testament. Like that that was hard for that's hard for me to to kind of wrap my head around and and take take that view. And I think the reason for that is because if you ask if you believe that, okay, that the complete completeness is when the Bible kind of yeah the New Testament was all finalized, you have to ask the question, okay, but when specifically is that point? Like what is a specific point, specific date, specific day that that actually happened? And again, d and it depends on your view of the canonization of the scriptures, right? So of the New Testament particularly. So you might take the view of right, like the the Muratorian canon, which was discovered back to l dating back to about 170 AD. the Muratorian canon didn't even have James and Peter in it, the book of James and Book of Peter. Or do you take the view of, you know, 363 AD, the Council of Laodicea, which had a slightly amended list. Or you the Council of Hippo and Carthage in like 390s AD. or do you take the classic the Council of Trent in 1546 that globally recognized and finalized the canon? Okay. Which date do you take? But then you also realize that different church traditions actually even have different lists of what are canonized books, so there's differences in that. and so once you do decide on that date or that day or that time period of when the Bible or the New Testament was finalized, then you have to find evidence of okay, did all the gifts then just stop at that point? Did they just die off in that moment? And again, it depends on what day you pick of how that all works. but then what was also tricky was that, you know, when you look at the writings of the early church fathers and and the church histori church historians, there's plenty of evidence seemingly that suggests that the spiritual, miraculous gifts were still around even past you know, the Book of Acts and past those, you know, early in the first century and second century. Got people like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen Tertullian, I can't go into all the writings, but you could easily Google all the some of their writings and and see what they say. Seemingly talking about prophecy, seemingly talking about these about these healings happening and not just ceasing and stopping all of a sudden. and then even just logically again, like I mentioned, it's hard for me to believe that Paul in First Corinthians thirteen, ten, when he wrote Completeness Teleos, that he was thinking about the canonization of the New Testament. That that was what what he meant when he wrote that. And I just think if you do good if you're just doing exegesis, it doesn't seem it doesn't seem like that is what Paul is referring to, in First Corinthians thirteen, verse ten. So for me it became very difficult. I was getting again, I'm saying it all now like like it was easy, but man, I was getting really shaken, like, my gosh, this is this is big because It is really hard for me to take a positive view of the cessationist position, like the cessationist case. It just does not seem to be holding up pragmatically, evidentially, historically. Seems very tricky. And then on the other hand, when I looked at the continuationist view, and again, I was looking at this with I want this to be so wrong. Like I want this to be so bad, so that I can just throw it out the window and say, Yep, cessationism is the correct view. But when you look at the continuationist view, it it just seems even just off the first glance of the passage, it just seems like the very natural reading of the text. Like if you're just reading First Corinthians thirteen, verse ten, you would probably just think that's yeah, that's referring to when Jesus comes back. Like, yep. That when completeness comes, here's a complete one. Jesus. When's he coming back? Whenever he comes back, that's that'll be the time. logically that is seems to be yeah, I think it's at the reading of the text that's the natural kind of understanding. And then also even this in the same letter, in First Corinthians one, verse seven. Paul writes this in the first chapter of Corinthians. He says, Therefore, to the Corinthians, therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will also keep you firm to the end so that you'll be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. And so Paul's looks like he's saying, Hey, to the Corinthians, hey, you guys don't lack any kind of spiritual gift as you wait till the time that Jesus is going to be revealed. So that seems like he's referring to Jesus' second coming and that they're gonna have spiritual gifts up until the point that Jesus is revealed. And that would make sense later on, 1 Corinthians 13, verse 10, that the completeness would refer to Jesus' second coming. So you the natural reading, you have the kind of another reference to it in the same book earlier in chapter one. So yeah, and then also thinking about the logic too, because just pragmatically you You you have the miraculo you have gifts listed in scripture predominantly in First Corinthians chapter twelve and Romans twelve. Those are like a where you see the lists of the gifts of the spirit. and very simply, if you're a continuationist, you can say that all those gifts listed in both Romans twelve and first Corinthians twelve, all of them still exist. They're all in operation today, until Jesus returns, they're not ending. But if you're a cessationist, you'd have to look at that list. look at both lists and you're gonna have to pick and choose which ones remain and then which ones are gone. So, you know, as a sation and again, this is this is what I struggled with is too 'cause you can't go in the same chapter. You can't go, yeah, prophecy and prophesying is the gift of prophecy in Romans twelve, that's that's gone, 'cause prophecy's done, we don't need that anymore. But the gift of generosity and the gift of faith, those things are still around. But it's like But it's in the same list. So how do you What qualifies you to pick this one is gone and this one is not. Hard, hard to do. So look, there's a lot of nuance with that, with with both of the views and and there's much more you can watch the debates and read all the debates and and see all that in in further detail. But basically, with all of that, after I weighed everything up, I prayed about it a lot and God please reveal it. I did change my mind. I changed my mind and I moved from a cessationist view to a continuationist view, which is a view I still very much hold today. So I do believe absolutely the gifts, miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, tongues, prophecy, all the ones that healing, all those things absolutely exist and are still in operation. now, there's a lot of nuance here because you got it there's language and there's definition. So what do you mean by prophecy? What do you mean by tongues? What do you mean by glossa versus dialecto and and what what what do you mean by healing and and how does gifts of healing work as it means someone can do it on command or is it God praise and then someone just has a high success of healing that's a whole other thing. If you wanted more detail on that stuff go and check out the guys at Remnant Radio, other remnant radio podcasts. They do a great job explaining those things been very helpful for me. but anyway that's where I land and that's where I've been reshaped in in that area. Now this really impacted me greatly like again I'm saying like it's all easy. But at the time it really impacted me greatly because the implications of it were huge. That if continuationist view if the continuationist view is true, that means that God is working through people in other traditions, in other church denominations, which is something that again I'm about to talk about here in a second, kinda blew my mind. Like, my gosh, because God wouldn't empower a non Christian with the Holy Spirit to do miraculous gifts, to to to exercise any gifts any in that for that matter. So that was like, what does that mean? What are the implications of that? Like church wise, denomination wise. And that led me to my next wrestle, but let that which I'll talk about here in a sec. But that this is again, this is the first domino to fall in a good way, right? That really opened me up to seeing, man, I've been reshaped, man, and there's so many things I need to that I need to consider and think about. And what are other areas of of of belief and convictions that I had that I have to rethink about? And so there you go. So that's that's the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. Which now leads me to my second kind of area I've been reshaped in, which is my view of other Christian denominations. Again, I'm just personally sharing here, okay. So please do not associate what I'm saying necessarily with my church or those that are in a similar movement. though there might be some kind of connection there. I'm just sharing personally, okay. So over the years, as a Christian in the tradition I grew up with, and again I'm in a in a Protestant, evangelical, non denominational church. I had a view, incorrectly as as I may add, but this is the view that I kind of ended up it ended up culminating in me that I viewed other Christian denominations as not true. and I kind of self righteously would look down upon them, because I believed that they were teaching a false gospel. And the reason I would bel I believe that, is because they would hold a different view to me than on in c in terms of my soteriology. So that just refers to my doctrine of salvation. and we will basically it'd be basically the same on most things that you need to have faith in Jesus. Jesus is the only way to heaven. He's the only he died on the cross, resurrected. You need to repent of your sin, and you gotta turn away from your sin and turn to God. But then I w I would say, and I still believe this to today, that that you need to be baptized, that baptism is an essential part of salvation. That you must have all three. They're all essential. They're all important. Faith, repentance, and baptism are all together. and then I would see other church traditions that would say, No, no, you don't, no, faith and repentance, absolutely, you need those things, but baptism is not essential for salvation, but it is very, very important. And I would see that as, no, like that's false. That's a false doctrine, that's false teaching. You guys are preaching a false gospel. and yeah, and then I just kind of had that. that that view that that's how people that's the Christian other Christian dominations, that's not me. You guys got it wrong, and I need to help you guys get it right. But as I mentioned with the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit reshaping, the implications of that again are big because it would mean if God is working miraculously through other Christians in other church denominations, that means that there are genuine spirit-filled Christians in other church traditions and other denominations. That exists. And maybe I just don't have the full picture or the full understanding of how that all works. and you know, I think a lot so then had to had to kind of recalibrate, okay, what what am I evaluating here? What am I thinking about? And I think where what we see in scripture a lot of the time is a god Jesus and the scriptures call us to evaluate people's fruit. Like how do you know someone? You can tell by their fruit. is it always a hundred percent accurate? No, 'cause people can do good things and have the wrong heart. But there is a massive implications of of fruit in In revealing who people are. And you know, in Luke chapter six, verse forty three to forty five, Jesus says, No good tree bears bad fruit, and nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thorn bushes or grapes from breeze. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. Sorry, did I say that right? A good man brings out good things out of the good stored up in his heart. And an evil man brings out evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. Yeah, I did. Okay. And so basically the point that Jesus is is making and what the scriptures seem to show us is that when you evaluate people's fruit, their lives, what they're doing, if that stands the test and there's goodness coming out of it, that's probably good fruit, which means that it's true and it's rooted in Christ, and it's rooted in something true. And when I would look at other fruit the look at the fruits of of other church denominations. Yes, there's always bad stuff. There's bad stuff going on in that's bad stuff that would happen in my church. But there was a lot of good stuff going on too. A lot of great things happening in other churches. People, you know, people becoming Christians or people being pointed to Christ. people serving the poor, people meeting needs, communities being helped out, in more ways than probably even my church was doing, right? And it you kind of go, that's good stuff. Like that's happening. That's good fruit. and then you map on top of that, which is a very amazing passage that Jesus says in Matthew twelve in Matthew twelve, forty eight to fifty. in that in that passage there some random Jesus is teaching at a house and some random people come up to him and say, Hey Jesus, your your your mom and your family are looking for you. They're looking for you. And then it says in verse forty eight of Matthew twelve, Jesus yeah, he replied to him, the man who was saying, Jesus, your your family's here. He says, Who is my mother and who are my brothers? Pointing to his disciples, he said, Here are my mother, my here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my mother, is my brother and sister and mother. And so basically the point is Jesus made Jesus makes is that anyone who does God's will, whoever obeys God, is part of Jesus' spiritual family. Like whoever is doing the will of God is part of the family. And so when he put that all together, my wrestle, what it implied about. you know, genuine Christians Christians being part of other tr traditions and and denominations, good fruit being revealed in these denominations that seem undeniably like there's good stuff happening. And then the very fact that they are technically doing the will of God because they're trying to do what Jesus says and do what the Bible says. I couldn't help but conclude, you know what? At the end of the day, other church denominations are on the same team as me. We're Team Jesus, we're team Preaching the gospel, we're team, people going to heaven, we're team, serving the poor and and helping those in need. And that's what want. Like that's what I want too. And yes, you know what? I may disagree with the soteriology and about baptism, about those things. But you know what? At the end of the day, and I would say this is true for everyone, is that yeah, we don't know people's hearts and we don't know how God's gonna judge. Yes, he judges based on the word, and yes, he will do what he sees fit at the end of the day. and it's not my job to try and get into these super doctrinal battles about every little nuance. Now, I think it's good to discuss them in and I think we do need to talk about them. Amen. But we need to do the will of God. And I think we need to do the will of the Father, which is what Jesus is calling us to do. I don't want to get caught up in all these other little things. And I've had many of these discussions by the way throughout my time as in the full time ministry in my time, sharing my faith with with people on campus and and other people that I know, I've had the long debates about baptism. I've had the long debates about all these other things. And I'm not gonna lie, yeah, it might it convinced some people, sure, and and that was that was fine. But I don't know. I don't know if that's if that's what it's all if that's what it's all about at the end of the day. I do think it is important, but I think I wanted and that was my view change. My view change was, you know what? All these guys, all these other church traditions and church denominations were all trying to do the same thing. And if more people are doing that in the world, the better. That's absolut people getting pointed to Jesus, people are the spirit's working in people's lives and people's hearts. Amen. Amen. Then that's a great thing. And so that's how I do view it now. that other denominations we're on the same team here. We're trying to make Jesus known. Yes, we'll disagree on on the soteriology still, but I God's in control and I'm just gonna do the best that I can. so I guess you you might think, okay, how do I harmonize all that then? Like how do I harmonize my view of having that team mindset with other church denominations? And then my own personal conviction, which is also my church's conviction about baptism, how do I harmonize that, harmonize all that? Well, it's it's like this if if someone asks me, how do I be saved, how do I get forgiveness and get right with God, I will teach what I believe the Bible is teaching and teaching very clearly that someone must have faith in Christ, what he's done for them on the cross, trust in him only, they must repent, which means to turn their life away from. sin and just walk towards Christ and and align their life towards God and get baptized. That's it. That's what I that's what I would teach. but even though I would teach that, I'm not gonna alienate other d denominations and look down on them because I don't teach it exactly the same way that I do. They all would teach that baptism is important. Now that gets into another whole conversation about okay, what are the exact things you need to know about baptism in order to make it valid and all those kinds of things. Honestly, I've had a little bit of a reshaping there, but that's for another day. but I still believe overall we're on the same team. We all genuinely love Jesus, we're all genuinely trying to follow Christ, all trying to get right with God and help others get right with God and serve the poor, serve others, glorify God, make Jesus known. We're on the same team. Jesus said, Whoever does the will of my father is my mother, my brother, my sister. Pe other church traditions are and church denominations are trying to do the will of God, then Amen. I'm happy to call them a brother or a sister, in that regard. And to be honest, since doing that, it has really been for me personally just really freeing. just now I don't view other denomin because when I would talk to other church denominations back in the past, p someone from another denomination, I would kind of be like, Ooh, okay, you're a Baptist or Ooh, you're a Pentecostal, okay, we gotta get to talking about this. and view them in that kind of way. and again, I would still have the same conversations. But I've do it very differently and much more graciously, I think. But but since viewing things like that and other denominations this way, it's I've definitely become much more ecu ecumenical and like it's been really exciting to just listen and learn, connect with people from other denominations, learn a lot from them, what they're doing. and yeah, it's just been awesome to to to be able and it makes it helped me make more sense of a lot of things that I see, in the world of Christianity and in the world. So anyway. That's my view right now. And Amen. Like I'm happy with that. And and again I might be reshaped again. Who knows? But that's currently where I'm at with that. So thirdly and lastly, the last area I've been reshaped in is the area of who are the church gatherings primarily for. Okay. Who are the church gatherings primarily for? So like I mentioned, my church, again, I love my church. Okay. There's like I'm not I'm not trying to like, you know smack talk my church anything like that absolutely love it and I'll be part of it God willing till the day I die. I've got my family here, I've got my I'm raising my daughters here, all those kinds of things. And so I will gladly, I'll gladly be part of this church till forever and Amen. Like that's until God, unless God has a different plan, then I'm open to that. So but my church is a very evangelical church, like evangelical, sharing the gospel, planting churches, evangelizing, growing, And it's amazing and I love being part of it. I love seeing churches grow numerically. I love seeing people become Christians. otherwise I wouldn't have been in the full time ministry. And it's it's amazing. but growing up in in in this in in this environment, in this church, and seeing other again, even other denominations doing the same thing of yeah, like reaching the lost, reach the lost world, share the gospel, bring people to Christ. grow the kingdom, which is which is a great thing. I think s subconsciously what began to happen, at least for me in my mind, is that it be I began to see the meetings of the church, so the meetings of the body, like Sunday Sunday services, midweek services, midweek meetings, devotionals. I began to see those meetings as the place to bring non believers so that they can get a good dose of Jesus be impacted hopefully and then give their life to Christ. or or at least, you know, make the decision to study the Bible and go on that journey. and so it became kind of the place to get to to get you know, get them, get them to know, get them to know Jesus. And the term, which I found out much later on, is that that's being used for this is seeker sensitive. So see a seeker sensitive church model. And that kind of became popularized seemingly in the like the twentieth century or so. twenty first century, sorry. The idea twenty twenty twenty twenty and twenty first century. but particularly it's the idea to make church attractive to unbelievers so that they can get in the door and then meet Christ, right? So you do certain things, you make the messages, the sermons, the topics, things that non believers need to know about. you make it really great, you know, which it church should always be great. but yeah, you make it as kinda low what's the word? Low restriction or a friction. Low f lowest friction possible to get n unbelievers in the door. And so that was my mindset. And it was my mindset. Like, yeah, that's what let's get the church Catholics make it make it visitor friendly. Make it visitor friendly. Make sure people get there. and What actually happened, this was probably a couple years ago. Yeah, I think it was like twenty twenty four. Twenty twenty-five actually. No, I think it might have been last no, twenty twenty four, I think. But Benny, one of my I could you call him uncle in law. I'm not gonna say his name just because, you know, he doesn't know about you know what I'm gonna say. But it's but my uncle in laws and he's a he's a Christian. And I think that's what you call him, uncle in law. It's my mother in law's brother. Anyway. He's a Christian. He leads little small, small a church, and they have this few little house churches that he kind of oversees, which is really cool. and he put me on this guy's YouTube channel. And the YouTube channel is actually there's a guy named Tom Wadsworth. And what Tom Wadsworth has done, Tom Wadsworth is a PhD, Masters of Divinity, Bible nerd, history nerd, all those kinds of things. And what he did was he actually spent many, many years researching and produced a kind of a three hundred page doctoral dissertation on first century Christian assemblies. So he spent all this time researching what was the gathering of the church like in the first century, the first century church. And on YouTube he w he released a seven part video series on that on that topic. What were the first century gatherings like for the Christians? And it's really, really good. Like definitely go and listen to it, go watch it. It was again sim similar to the miraculous gifts, kind of just like making me go, the what is this? This is amazing the I don't know about that. I don't agree with that. Maybe I do, I don't know. But basically he makes a clear point that the Chr in the first century the Christian assemblies and the gatherings were always focused primarily on the Christians. And the edification of the Christians. That's what it was about. It was about the Christians, only the Christians, edification, growth, maturity in Christ. and so that meant that, you know, fellowship, the prayers, teachings, the discipling was always about helping Christians to mature and to grow in their faith in Christ and grow in their walk with Jesus. And scripturally, I think. That's definitely the case. I mean, we see that right in all of the epistles. Like that's Paul's plea and his his his ongoing message is for it's I mean it's written to Christians, like the the the epistles are written to the Christians in these churches and he w it's very clear that Paul wants all these Christians to grow, all Christians to mature. in Ephesians four Paul writes about, you know, wanting the body of Christ to be built up, as each part does its work. in Corinthians he talks a lot about them maturing, wanting them to mature and to grow. In Colossians 1 28, Paul talks about, you know, we want to present everyone fully mature in Christ. And so there's this continual emphasis on wanting the Christians, those already in the family of God, to continue to grow and mature. and what that means is that then the church gatherings must primarily meet that purpose. If the purpose is for Christians to grow and mature and be edified and edify one another, then the gatherings must primarily be about that. helping the Christians to grow, helping them to be edified. But what happens is if gatherings are seeker sensitive firstly and if they're about the non-believers primarily, then that means that the sermons, the teachings, conversations, all those kinds of things are tailored to that and tailored to the non believer, tailored to the the non Christian, to help them become a Christian, which is a great thing, right? There is a good part about that to help the Christian to help the non Christian to again low friction, hear the gospel, pursue Christ hopefully, and hopefully they become a Christian. But if that becomes the ongoing pattern that it's always about the non believer, always about the non Christian, then what that means is that Christians aren't maturing. Because if every gathering is just about the gospel like being tailored to the non Christian, which I think again is an amazing thing, that means that the Christians are just hearing the same thing in the same way or maybe in different ways multiple times, just hearing the same thing over and over again. And it maybe gets them stuck spiritually, right? And they just kind of stay spiritually immature. and all they think about, perhaps because that's all they hear, that the most important thing about being a Christian is simply about bringing people to church to help them to become Christians. While that and while that is very, very important and sharing the gospel is absolutely essential. I think it's it's not the most important thing. The most important thing for a Christian is their own spiritual walk and mature maturation in Christ. Like that is what it is. And logically, if someone if a Christian is doing that, if a Christian is growing in their maturity and is growing in their in their depth and in their walk with Christ, then logically they're gonna be focused on bringing people to Christ anyway. And so now that kind of really again, it aga some people's like, dude, that's obviously what Christian gatherings are for. Again, this is just me. This is where I've been reshaped in. And my wife and I have had many conversations about this and and you know, being in the positions that we are we are in, of being able to lead a region of our church and and be involved in people's lives and give advice to people. That is something that we're trying to make sure we're doing now. That everything we do church gathering wise that we are trying to make it primarily focused for the Christians. Like primarily focus on the Christians to help them to as Hebrews six one talks about to like move beyond the element elementary teachings and move towards spiritual spiritual meat. and so sermons, the teachings, topics, all those kinds of things are when they're done and I'm encouraging my guys my people that I get help lead and and give advice to. I'm I'm encouraging them to make sure they're doing it with the Christians, primarily in focus. Primarily Christians are in focus. Now, non believers must be also addressed and and thought about as well, but they are secondary in the sense that we want to make sure that the Christians, the family's being looked after and then of course if that's being looked after, then we are ready and we can be in a place where we're all where we can have unbelievers Come in to know Christ so that we can help them to mature as well. we don't want to just make a non-believer become a Christian and then we're not helping them to continue to mature and grow. and so that's all we're trying to do. We're trying to focus on utilizing the meanings of the body of Christ to help Christians to mature. and we will have, I think it's and and we're trying to do this too, we're gonna have intentionally intentional visitor-focus events and focused. in visitor focused gatherings for non believers and I think that's a really good thing to do to go this this gathering is specifically for non Christians. Okay. That doesn't mean like you tell them this I'm not like non believers like, this is especially for you. But like the Christian's mind's like, okay, great. Like we know this for that reason. amen. Let's do that. Let and then we can make the lesson a bit more yeah. It can be a bit more visitor friendly, thought provoking in for for what a visitor may be thinking about those kinds of things. now a good pushback that I thought and what I've heard too is like, well, if we do that though, if if if if the teaching of of the and and you know, the lessons and things like in in church and the discussions that we have in at in the church gatherings are really are too deep, like if they're, you know, deep topics that unbeliev the non believer won't have any idea about, that that's gonna be confusing for them. Like it's it's gonna be too spiritually mature for them. They're not ready for that. And the truth is, yeah, it probably will be. it probably would be that for sure. That they would be confused. They would be a little bit like, What is this about? What are you guys talking about? And that makes sense 'cause they don't have the spirit, right? Like it's like okay. But I think what can be a good thing that gets taken away from that, if anything, is that they will see how serious we are as Christians about maturing and understanding the deeper things of Christ and about about God. and they may be moved by that. They may be moved by that. So anyway, that's another that's another area I've been reshaped in that the church gatherings primarily for the Christians first. So there you go. That's it. That those are three areas, the three areas, three things that I've been reshaped in. The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, my view on other Christian denominations, and my view on who the church gatherings are primarily for. So hopefully that that gives you a bit more of a understanding of where I'm at and how I've been reshaped and maybe there are some things in there that you might need to consider. And think about too. and I'm also happy to hear any thoughts or feedback that you might have about that, on those areas as well. but yeah, let's all continue to be reshaped again. We're just trying to bring Christian formation through thoughtful examination and conversation. Make sure that if you think this could be interesting for someone that you know, please share the podcast with them or share the I don't know an Instagram reel, whatever it might be. and if you want to like and subscribe, that'd be and like and follow, that'd be sick too. So anyway, we'll see you next one. Thanks for watching and listening. Peace.