Latest / Harvest After Sunday / Should Christians Care About Politics?: Cultural Matters
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- Should Christians Care About Politcs Cultural Matters: Welcome to the Harvest After Sunday podcast. I'm Natalie and I am your host and I'm here with Stefan. He's our pastor of preaching and teaching. And it is election week. People might not know that because, you know, they're not getting spammed continually on their TV screens and their phones, I'm sure, with all kinds of alerts. Well, if if they're not, if they're not, I want to know what they did. I know. Yes, it's all around us and And it's good, it's important for us to address things here that affect our people in their daily lives and that are important. talking about and thinking rightly about engaging in the world we live in is important as believers. And so of course we wanna have conversations, you and I here, but with our people and for people to be working through the issues around these things, politics and elections and voting and government and living as citizens in this country, which we do. And we can trust in God's sovereignty over that, that we are alive in this place and in this time and in these circumstances. But we while we rest in God's sovereignty, we also have to take action as man and as people. And it's important. And so we wanna I w I wanna talk to you today about how we should be thinking about politics, how we should be thinking about it when we're voting. Hopefully we can cover a lot of a lot of ground today in our conversation. but what would you want to say just as a framework or an umbrella for people, you know, p some people might be excited in these first few minutes and like ready to tune in. If people get fi some there's, you know, one side that gets not one side, but one side of a spectrum of people that gets really fired up and passionate. There are other people that may be wanting to tune out right now. Yeah. So How can we bring everybody on the same page and understand what this conversation is going to be about? Yeah, I think I think that's a great place to start, actually. so let's let's talk about the thing that we should all recognize and then probably the the gentle, gracious correction to the polar extremes. so politics is simply the pursuit of a just society. That's what the word means. It is it is to pursue a vision and a realization of that vision for what a good and a just society is. now, how you define good and just society is going to differ, which is why there's disagreement within politics. But even within all the disagreement, what is being pursued in the political atmosphere and agenda is. We have this vision for a just and good society because we believe what is just and what is good is X, Y, and Z. Therefore, we are going to seek to advance X, Y, and Z in the pursuit of a good and a just society. depending on your background, your political leanings, what nation you are in. what your world view is, what religion you were brought up in, all these factors contribute to what you believe a good and a just society is. But at root, that's what politics is. And so I'll hear people say, I don't I don't get into politics, I don't do politics, I don't really care. Well, I would I would gently correct you in that and say you should care about politics. Maybe maybe you are you're fatigued at the Just the political air that we breathe, especially in election years. I can totally understand that. But we should care about politics because it is the the s pursuit of a good and just society within the governing authorities that God has sovereignly placed us under. And so to whatever extent we have the ability to influence that political atmosphere, we should seek to influence it. In whatever way we can. And in our country, that is through our ability to vote. We live in a democratic republic. we don't live in a democracy in the most pure sense of that. Every vote doesn't have equal weight. We live in a democratic republic in which we vote for those who will represent us. we're not going to get into different political systems in this podcast, but it's at least worth saying when we understand that we live in a democratic republic, we understand. we we're able to understand better the extent to which we as individuals can have an influence in our society. We can vote for those who will represent us. We can communicate with those who represent us of what we want them to advance and what we don't. And if they don't advance what we want them to advance, we can vote for somebody else. There is a great deal of of influence that individuals can have in that kind of system. Now On the other side of that spectrum, though, is the person who gets really fired up about politics because in that person's mind, it is the primary means by which we will see our own vision of a good and just society advanced. And I would the correction I would offer to that is the the way that we as Christians should be thinking. About the cultivation of a good and just society is not primarily through our civic engagement in policy, but through our Christian engagement in society. So if I'm gonna get fired up about politics and and elections and propositions and laws, I would hope that I would be even more passionate about. doing good and seeking justice within my own community in my own Christian life. I think the the big concern that I have is when someone is relatively inactive in their own Christian life with their neighbors and caring for the needy and and supporting and loving those around them like Christ calls us to, when they're relatively inactive in that and overactive in the political sphere. I think that is a is a a large imbalance. So to the person who says politics don't matter, I would say yes it does, because it's a means by which God has sovereignly and providentially allowed us to influence the pursuit of a good and just society. And so we should use it to the extent that we can. To the person who says politics is all that matters and I'm going to turn every conversation into a political conversation, I would say it does matter, but but your Christian life matters so much more. and so and and and how we vote and how we engage with policy, that is simply a piece of our Christian life. It is not the whole. So can we say plainly Christians should feel an obligation to vote or should be compelled to vote, or is it something that needs to be brought into balance, like you were just saying, and there's a spectrum and we we maybe can't lay down on one exact thing. Like you you must vote at the expense of other ways of being involved that there are a variety of of ways that we can be involved in politics in pursuit of a good and just society. and it doesn't all hang I mean I think we could maybe answer say what you would recommend or can you plainly say Christians should feel compelled to participate in an election. I think that the the way that I would say it is as a Christian living in a democratic republic, you should feel compelled to participate in the in the process of that democratic republic. Yes. Yeah. because one, you have a privilege that most throughout human history and most around this globe today do not have in terms of how you can play a part in influencing our society one direction or the other. the the second reason why and and the wording matters. Yeah. Should feel compelled. the second reason why you should feel compelled to participate in the process of our democratic republic. is because nowhere in scripture do we find passivity as an acceptable as an acceptable living out of the Christian life. passivity is a implied acceptance of any outcome. so if I am not going to participate in one thing or another, regardless of what it is, I am Implicitly accepting whatever outcome is going to happen. And if we have things that we would say we believe are unjust on a ballot or things in our society that we look at and we say, we believe that that is not right. And then I at the same time say, and I'm not going to in any way, shape, or form participate in the pursuit of changing that. Then that is an implicit acceptance of the very thing that I say is not right. And even when Israel was in exile in Babylon, God told Israel through the prophet Jeremiah to seek the welfare of their city. The welfare, meaning what is actually best for them. It he was not saying assimilate into their culture all so much so that you embrace their gods and that you look no different than them. No, he he said. Even though you are my people and you are distinct, though you live in a foreign land, seek the welfare of the city because it will go well for you. And you're supposed to be a light to the surrounding nations. You are supposed to be an example of what goodness and justice, according to the Lord, look like. And so, what does it look like then for us? Though we live in a society that is not sympathetic, even to Christian values. What does it look like for us as God's people to pursue the welfare of our city, but to seek that though or to seek that those things that are good and just in the eyes of the Lord are advanced? And so why would we not participate in that? Other than apathy, I think that a lot of a lot of Christians have become apathetic to the el electoral process. I think social media played a huge role in that. but I don't think that we should be apathetic toward it. I think that we should trust In the sovereignty and providence of God and say, Lord, you have me in this place at this time for your purposes. Let me be faithful in pursuing your purposes. Now, I said the wording matters. Should feel compelled to participate. I don't think I'm going to go so far as to say it is sinful for a Christian to not vote. I think it's unwise. I think that it is it is at least at least an abdication of some responsibility. And so we we could we could potentially say where James says he who knows the good that he should do and does not do, does not do it, to him it is sin. if you know that it's right for you to participate and you choose not to, then that that's something to pray about for sure. But what I do think we can say is sinful is to vote for things that are abhorrent to God simply because it's popular to our society. I think about legislation that enables abortion legislation that seeks to oppress certain groups like Anything like that, we would need to say, listen, that that is wrong and you should not vote for those things. equally it we should be opposing those things actually. So when those things are on the ballot, we should say, Listen, that does not align with God's vision for what's good and what's just, therefore we must stand against it. so I think that kind of bringing it all together, I think there are things in our participation that can be sinful. If we are supporting things that go directly against what God commands. I think that we should, as followers of Christ, feel compelled to participate. and if we don't participate, then that is an implicit acceptance of whatever the outcome is. And I think people, you know, become very frustrated, disillusioned, discouraged maybe enough to convince themselves not to participate because there are nuances and complexities that make it difficult to know how to actually cast a vote sometimes. I think some of the things you outlined we can sit and say, of course like of course, if there are clear moral issues that, you know, so I I wouldn't cast my vote for or against, but things can be all grouped together in complex propositions and bills, we we're looking like you said, the way our system works, we vote for people that then represent us. And people are complex and imperfect and messy. And so there are some things that we align with them on and maybe some that we absolutely do not. So what then if the options that we're left with on a ballot are not clear cut and they're complex and we feel so confused. I'll admit to feeling like my knowledge and understanding sometimes is inadequate in order to participate in a way that I feel comfortable with. so just to say there it's not always clear cut in a way that's easily digestible to understand why people would maybe not participate and then complain. There's some really valid complications to the whole thing. Totally kind of what then Right. And I I think that when it comes to the wording of propositions on the ballot, it can be confusing. it almost feels intentional sometimes. Like what is this really what is this really going to accomplish? And kind of sneaking things through it feels very Right. And I think that it is totally fair for an individual to be like that honestly, like what am I even supposed to think about this? Well there are resources out there to help you think through it. Center for Arizona Policy, every single election term puts out a voter guide that helps you to understand exactly what each candidate actually believes. on a on a wide variety of things. they actually put with each candidate they put it's it's like thirteen or fourteen questions on a on a grid and they send these questions to each candidate. and they they ask, do you support this? Are you opposed to it? And it's on like a it's on like a five point spectrum, like strongly support, strongly oppose, support, oppose, neutral or didn't answer. And then and then you can just look and see what they what they believe about those actual issues. so that you're able to hear from the candidate essentially, what do you think about this particular issue? and then with the propositions, they explain them. Here's what a yes vote accomplishes, here's what a no vote accomplishes. And what I appreciate about Center for Arizona Policies voter guide is that it isn't it isn't obviously trying to be manipulative. there are other voter guides that I was reading through over the last few weeks that that are obviously rephrasing things and telling you which way to vote based on their rephrasing of things that that feels genuinely manipulative. and so I would just encourage anybody who's confused, like Center for Arizona Policy's Voter Guide is a helpful resource. I'm not saying it's infallible. it's just there are resources out there to help you think through it. and Center for Arizona Policy is a Christian organization. So they are advocating for values that make a society just and good according to the design of God. So you can you can at least trust it as a as a God honoring organization and resource. The other the other piece with how do I even think about these particular issues is yes it can get convoluted when you have a lot of issues all intertwined But I think that there are things that in scripture are clearly primary issues for us that we should not ignore for the sake of other things. So when a candidate or a proposition or a law advocates for the devaluing of human life and the the magnification of human autonomy at the expense of other human life. abortion's a great example of that. Giving the the the mother the autonomy to decide for herself whether or not that child lives and that child's life is devalued. Any any support of that we must oppose. Period. Because man was made in the image of God scripture makes very clear that from conception, personhood, value, image of God is imbued to that child, therefore it must be protected. so I can hear a candidate's stance on all kinds of different social issues, and what they believe should be taxed and what they believe shouldn't be taxed, and where that money should go, and and that could all feel very confusing, but if I know that a candidate is going to support the devaluing of the unborn, I will not support that candidate. I will not. And I would I would argue that that Christians should not. Yeah. And I do want to ask a question because it seems so clear, like of course we want to vote in a like in in a way that's aligned with not just our values, but our values that are coming from what scripture says. Yes, great. What if what about the person who's saying, Okay, but we live in a country where we have religious freedom. We get to benefit from that. But if I'm voting in a way that aligns with my values, is that imposing my religious beliefs on an unbeliever? Is there a ten is there even a tension there? Or is that not is there no tension? Yeah. Okay. How much time do we have? so I think that the religious freedom language has been somewhat co-opted by a increasingly secular society that wants to say that religious freedom means equal freedom for any religious ideology and that's what our country was founded on and that is not true that is just not true So there is all kinds of debate on whether or not America was founded as a Christian nation. And while, yes, many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence weren't necessarily Christian, they were deists, like Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian, he was a deist. he believed in God, but he was skeptical toward the person of Christ. even still at that time, the prevailing ethic The prevailing value system, the prevailing recognition of why it is that every person has been endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, namely life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's from the Declaration of Independence. That was from the Christian principle of natural law, that that in creation there is a creator God rooted in the God of the Bible that gives us these freedoms and these rights. And so, while yes, we have quote unquote religious freedom, one, if we truly believe that the God of the Bible is true, then what is a just and a right society, a just and good society, will be in alignment with his values, with his commands, even if it's a secular society. Like what is gonna be best for this society is God's way, period. and so if someone wants to say, well you're just you're just enforcing your religious beliefs on me, I would say, Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I'm not I'm not forcing them upon you, but I'm certainly voting according to them because I am convinced that what is best for you is these truths, these ways that God created us and what he intends for us. Yeah, I do think that that is what's best. So I'm gonna vote accordingly. Mm-hmm. if you disagree, you can vote accordingly. Right. That that's essentially the point of the whole process is to best to vote for what you think is best for the society and the I'm doing it in alignment with my beliefs. Right. And at the end of the day, if if we're going to say that people do have these inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we're going to say that you have rights at all. It has to be within a framework in which there is a God who created us with those rights. Period. End of story. If and and all the political theorists will be like, wait, no, but there's the social contract from from Rousseau and where we just agree about these rights. No, no, no, no. Not the rights that we just decide that one another have, but if we're gonna say, I have this human right, by nature of being a human, I have this right. That only you only can argue that objectively if there is a God who made you with that right. there's a great book called The Air We Breathe by Glenn Scrivener and he just takes he takes these words that are so common for us freedom, progress or progress, v human value and human rights. All these justice All these things that we we just talk about yes, they're obviously that's that's true. And he just shows all of those words, all of those concepts did not exist until Christianity came on the scene. If you believe we have rights, you have Christianity to thank for that. Wow. If you believe in an idea of justice that transcends human opinion, you have Christianity to thank for that. The Air We Breathe by Glenn Scrivener. Very easy read. Very well written. and so, at the end of the day, back to your original question, at the end of the day, if we're going to say, well, but aren't you we have religious freedom and aren't you using the the the democratic process to try and impose your religious beliefs? I think impose is probably not the the best word, I would say. Yeah, I'm using the democratic process to advance what I believe is a just and good society. according to the God that gave us these rights that we all claim to have. we then as Christians should see this process, should see elections as a way of saying, Lord, let me honor you in seeking to move forward the things that will make this society a more just and good society in your eyes. Let me stand against those things that would make this society more abhorrent in your eyes. Let me pray for my leaders who don't fear you that they would start to fear you. Let me pray for my leaders who do fear you that they would continue to do it. And I'm going to trust the outcome into your hands. But I'm going to live according to my responsibility to use the life you've given me to advance this. Yeah, absolutely. So we should feel compelled to participate, and we should be praying about what how we should be participating and engaging and voting, we should be anchored in God's word as we do so, potentially relying on a network of other believers to help gain understanding and perspective and ensure that we are aligned with the truth in God's word as we engage. those are really, I think, helpful guidelines and principles for us as believers. Before we go, I wanna talk about what happens after these elections. during and after. And And the way that we relate to other people. because I unfortunately have just seen believers, even when they are passionately upholding beliefs about a cause or a way to vote or a certain person, not behave in a very Christ like manner in the way that they are going about supporting a person, or other Believers that might disagree, non-believers, really unfortunate like assumptions and name calling and things about people that disagree with them. Yeah. And I think if we are to be helping our people become more like Christ, then it's not just about the actual vote that we cast. I think you mentioned, you know, we're not just voting. For something to be taken care of by the government, we should be living this out in our neighborhoods and our societies if we really believe these things. And that includes the way we interact with and talk to or talk about other people. Yeah. So if politics is the pursuit of a good and just society, then that means that the way that I engage in political discourse should be for your good. Like I it should be obvious if you and I disagree on something, by the end of the conversation, it should be obvious at least that I believe that this is going to be best for you. I think that what the way that we talk a lot of times is by the time we're done, you it is very clear how dumb I think you are. Right. And that is dumb, evil, idiot. I've heard horrible things. We can we can see all the different words that people use. And it's and and all what what happens in all of them is we're we're communicating, here is why I'm actually not acting for your good. I am rather in this conversation trying to highlight just how bad you are. And while I think that it's fair to say That that there are people in the world who seek to advance evil things out of a desire to do evil. I also think that in our hyper overwhelmingly informed age, where we just have so much information coming at us from so many different directions, I think it's actually more fair with with most people to say you you you're just probably misinformed, uninformed, or over informed to where you're struggling to think clearly about this according to what God's word says. And you might reject what God's word says, and that's why you're not thinking clearly about it. Or you do you do want to do what God says. I mean, I s I see plenty of Christians who who desire to honor the Lord. And so they embrace something that's being advanced in our society because they think that that's going to be honoring to the Lord because somebody said it would be. But when you really get down to it, you realize, this is actually not. I I can think of you know, we have there's a proposition on the ballot right now for I think it's proposition three eighteen that that disting it's a amendment to the const to the Arizona constitution that you must distinguish sports according to biological sex. And so someone might hear, that's that's discriminating against people who are trans. And so they might w say, Well, discrimination sounds bad and I want to honor the Lord, so I'm gonna oppose that because discrimination would be a bad thing, right? Okay, well that's you're you're misinformed and you're being misled. Remember, the the politics is the pursuit of a good and just society, and what is good according to God is the distinction between male and female, how he created them to be. And so if we're gonna think really clearly about this, because what we really want is for our good, if we're gonna think really clearly about this, we should be very clear on God's good design. So we should support something that says we're gonna maintain the distinction of God's good design. That conversation, if what I want is is your good, that's gonna go a very different direction than if I just wanna paint you as evil because of what you've been told by other people. So I think that the way that we should interact with one another is genuinely from a heart of I think that you're embracing something that isn't ultimately good and just according to God's word, and I just want to help you to see, I want to help you to see that there's another way, there's a better way. And the reason I want to help you to see it is not so that I can pat myself on the back for being right. The where the reason I want you to see it is because I also believe that when you see it, that's going to be truly good for you. and if we would have that heart, I think that we would engage very differently about these things. And then I think the the last piece, and I don't who knows how many have tuned out at this point, but I think the thing that we absolutely have to keep clear in all of this is that no outcome of an election permits you and I to abdicate the responsibilities of the Christian life. Period. If the first century Christians, first, second, and third century Christians actually could live faithfully for Christ under the Roman government that was trying to kill them. So much so that they are actually the reason that Rome became a Christian empire. I mean, by by the 304 AD, you had the Roman Emperor Gaius, I believe, say, we have tried to kill these Christians for two hundred years, and yet they are still thriving. Perhaps we should ask them to pray for us. And then you had Constantine with the Edict of Milan that made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. What you have is a very clear order of events. A people committed to living for Christ, loving their neighbors, caring for the needy, standing up for the oppressed, taking the the slander of the empire and and not fighting against it, not not picking up the sword to silence the empire, but simply saying we're gonna honor Christ. In their daily lives, they lived in such a way that that was actually the means of. by which the society was transformed without the ability to vote. How much the more could we, in our society where we do have the ability to vote, if we were to simply live as Christians regardless of the outcome of an election, I think that that would that would then actually help us to speak in ways around the election that are just all the more influential. Yeah. But when our lives don't reflect that the s the very values that we say we should be voting for, our vote's not gonna mean very much. Mm. I really hope people did stick around to hear the end of that because it that is I I find it both encouraging and challenging. But it's the point of why we're even here having these conversations is to becoming more like Christ, actually looking and living like him. I'm I more and more in my life, I am grateful for the example of Christ living as a man. because like in an example like this, we can see where Christ himself endured unjust treatment from government authorities and unto death. And like you said, there is no outcome that gives us permission to not follow the law. we we framed this in the very beginning as under the recognition that God is sovereign and He is sovereign even when outcomes in our lives may they be nationwide or statewide or in our our personal circumstances when they don't look good to us, when we don't understand them or don't like them or see how they can be good, we can rest in God's sovereignty and we can pray that he would help us be Christ like in the midst of difficulty so that others do look and see. and notice that we are different. and, you know, I think it can be a personal reflection for people to wrestle with this week that God did create in his good design authority structures. And I find that different people kind of push against different authority structures. And and government is is a layer of that authority that he has ordained. And, you know, there are other parent child and and worker relationships where God has ordained good authority for our good and we do not get a list of things that excuse us from submitting to that authority if we don't agree with the people in authority. And you know, you mentioned passivity earlier that we should not be passive in this process, but passivity is not the same as submission, and we can be Christ like in our submission to God ordained authority while still living. like Christ. Yeah. So I think that this will be so helpful to people and I really appreciate you guiding us through how we should be thinking about this topic. And we're so glad that you joined us for the Harvest After Sunday podcast, where we help you grow into the image of Christ by applying the truths of his word for his mission. We'll see you Sunday.