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Transcript

How do we feel about Michael Jackson the musical? · The Front

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What do you think can we cancel art? Should we
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: cancel art?
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: If you talk about canceling artists, generally it's a great
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: loss to culture. But also these are important conversations to have.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: The Michael Jackson Musical is here, and so are some
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: big questions. Jackson was definitely a genius. He was the
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: survivor of an abusive childhood, an inspiration for Black Americans,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a once in a generation performer. He was possibly also
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: a pedophile. So as the joyful and acclaimed stage show
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: MJ the Musical arrives in Australia, hot from a Broadway triumph,
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  Speaker 1: we ask some big questions about the man, his music,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and where art meets real life. Everybody, let's get start it.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Where do you want to begin from the top. Bridget
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Cormack is the deputy editor of Review, our Art section
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: in the Weekend Australian.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: It was absolutely electric on Broadway. So I went there
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty two during its premiere run and
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  Speaker 2: the audience was extremely vocal.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Don Scar looking for everybudy keep going.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: So you know you had audience members yelling out go Michael,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: sort of chanting things and getting up and dancing in
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: their seats. It's impossible not to get swept up in
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: the excitement and the energy of these songs, songs that so.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Many of us grew up with.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: So when I went to New York, I was a
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: guest of Michael Castle Group, and now they've bought this
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: musical to Australia. I went there on opening night to
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the Sea production, and there was definitely a sense of occasions.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So there were so many people with sequin jackets on
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  Speaker 2: and beautiful gowns. At the end there was a standing
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: ovation and people getting up to the dance to the
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: encore number, which was great.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: So here's what we can say about Michael Jackson the person.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen forty eight and rose to
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: fame as the ultra gifted child singer in the Jackson
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  Speaker 1: Five under the hand of his domineering father Joe. Jackson,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: as an adult didn't take part in the culture, he
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: was the culture. By his death at the age of
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: just fifty in two thousand and nine, Jackson was simultaneously
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: celebrated as the greatest performer of his age and someone
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: who had transformed our understanding of pop music, and also
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: widely regarded as a highly unusual and idiosyncratic person. Allegations
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: about sexual abuse had begun a rising in the early
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: nineties when a thirteen year old boy said he'd engaged
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: in sexual relations with Jackson. Jackson denied the allegations of abuse,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: but reached a multimillion dollar settlement with the boy's family.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, Journalist Martin Basheer, who would
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: later become notorious for an interview in which he allegedly
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: tricked Princess Diana into thinking the royal family was plotting
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: against her, aired interview footage where Jackson talked about sharing
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  Speaker 1: a bed with a twelve year old boy. He was
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: charged with multiple counts of child molestation, but was acquitted.
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  Speaker 1: In the twenty tens. After Jackson's death, two men came forward,
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  Speaker 1: alleging he'd abused them from as young as seven years
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  Speaker 1: of age. They tried, unsuccessfully to sue Jackson's estate. In
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, their allegations were aired in a documentary.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: Nearly a decade after his death. Renewed debate and grutiny
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: tonight in the week of the explosive HBO documentary Leaving Neverland,
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  Speaker 3: where two men claim they were sexually abused by Michael
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  Speaker 3: Jackson for years, starting when they were just seven and
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: ten years old.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And in twenty twenty six the matter will return to court.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: When I was in New York, we were, as I said,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: guests of Michael Castle Group, and I was there with
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  Speaker 2: a bunch of journalists, and a couple of the journalists
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: on the trip actually refused to go to see the
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: music all over there. Personally, I felt, as a journalist,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I should go and see the musical, to see what
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: it's all about and see how it does or doesn't
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: grapple with his difficult legacy. In Sydney, people were very
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: much there for a good night out. I mean, it's
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: the premiere, you know, you've got the red carpet and
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But as with the friend that
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I attended with, I imagine there were a lot of
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: people who went home and said, well, hang on, you
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: know what about these allegations. These weren't really dealt with
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: in this show at all.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: How did they handle that within the show itself.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It's interesting that one of the narrative threads throughout the
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: work is this MTV film crew who are there to
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: get a behind the scenes look of Michael Jackson. Preparing
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: for this dangerous world tour, and you know these are journalists,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So journalists is supposed to uncover the truth, but they
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: don't touch on these allegations at all. There is another
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: moment in the musical where Michael's facing a throng of
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: journalists and one of them says, what about the allegations?
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  Speaker 2: But that's it, and then the audience kind of is
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: left to wonder what allegations are they referring to.
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  Speaker 1: And what about other aspects of traumaal difficulty in his life?
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: His abusive childhood, for example, is that touched upon?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually, there's a huge storyline about his relationship with
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: his father. So the musical goes back in time and
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: looks at his childhood, his time in the Jackson five,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: and how his dad really really pushed him to perfection.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: And so in that sense, Michael kind of internalizes that voice,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: and he's seeking perfection for this upcoming tour. He's spending money,
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  Speaker 2: he doesn't want to cut corners. He wants everyone to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: be their best. He's even willing to throw Neverland on
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  Speaker 2: the line to financially save this tour. And I think
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: it's that sense of wanting to prove himself to his father.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Coming up, when, if ever, is it okay to cancel
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: an artist? In review and throughout your career, you've covered
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: all sorts of forms of art and a lot of
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: artists who are now being reconsidered. George Orwell, for example,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: is the subject of a best selling book which reveals
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: that he was kind of a creep to his wife.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: We've seen the same thing happen to Charles Dickens. We
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: talk a lot about cancel culture, how it's very easy
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: now for someone like a comedian to be canceled and
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: kind of wiped from the culture. What's your sense of
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: how Michael Jackson is treated in that context.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I read one interesting review that said, you know,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: audience members kind of need to compartmentalize in order to
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: watch something like this, and that remains true. You can't
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: dispute that this is fantastic, the fantastic performances. Roman Banks
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: is amazing as Michael Jackson. He nails the moonwalk. He
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: even gets his accent. I don't know if you can
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you can call it an accent, but you know the
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: whispery way that he talks, and you know, these are
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: performers at the top of their game and they put
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: on a fantastic show. These performers shouldn't be punished for
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: what Michael Jackson did or did not do. But you
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: also can't ignore these allegations. It's something that sort of
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: sits in the back of your mind. If you talk
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: about canceling artists generally, it's a great loss to culture,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: but also what happens to the conversations that we're having.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: These are important conversations to have. So you know, you
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: watch something like MJ and you go home and you
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: have really important conversations about it and what does this
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: art mean? And you know, is it okay that that
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I had a good experience, that I enjoyed this, So
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I think it deserves its audience.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's interesting about the passage of time, isn't it thinking
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: about say George Orwell. I can appreciate George Orwell's work,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: his art at the same time as feeling like he
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: was probably a bit of a misogynous prick, you know,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that I don't want to read
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Down and Out in Paris and London or think about
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: animal farm. Same with Charles Dickens. I'm fine with a
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Christmas Carol or the new adaptation of Oliver Twists, the
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: spin off being shot in Australia, The Artful Dodger. It
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: feels different about Michael Jackson to me, though, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it feels so recent, so fresh. Maybe it's because I
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: see my own children falling in love with his music
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  Speaker 1: in the way that I did in the eighties as
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: a kid myself. Is this something about the passage of time?
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Do you think that makes a difference.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think some of these allegations against Michael Jackson
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: are still in progress, aren't they. So I think that's
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: the awkward factor, because we don't know what's going to happen.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't convicted when he was alive, but
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: we don't know the outcome of these allegations.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: If he were a pedophile. If it is found by
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  Speaker 1: a court that he did abuse them, the two men
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: who accused him in the twenty tens, does that mean
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: his musical is unviable? Do you think.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I think the producers would have to answer some Yeah,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: some difficult questions. It's really up to audiences whether this
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: is a production that they want to go and see.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Whether for them the love of his music and the
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: artistry of the performers that are on stage. I don't
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: know if outweighs the right word, but whether they can
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: compartmentalize the other aspects to enjoy what is a good show?
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, holding those two things together at once, that this
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: person was flawed, but that he was also a genius.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Does that happen a lot when you're out and about
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: seeing you know, great works of art from history?
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I think if you look at opera, a lot
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: of opera productions are quite all the traditional storylines are
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: quite misogynistic. I remember going to see Verdes Rigoletta the
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Opera House a couple of years ago and just feeling
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: so disgusted by the character of the Duke. Who's this womanizing, misogynist,
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  Speaker 2: you know, his common refrain actually one of the most
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  Speaker 2: popular arias that everybody knows and loves. He's sort of
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  Speaker 2: chanting women are fickle. And I remember going home, I
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: had the program book in my hand, and a couple
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: of people who had also been at the opera noticed
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  Speaker 2: it and said.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: How's about the duke?
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  Speaker 2: You know, he hates women. So there's a lot of
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: artworks that I think would fall into this category.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: And for you, did that spoil your enjoyment of Verde's
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: beautiful music.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I still loved the music, but I
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: would definitely say the character of the Duke rubbed me
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: the wrong way part of the part.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And is it fair to consider the duke as
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a you know, as a woman in twenty twenty five,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: you know, looking with your empowered feminist kind of mindset,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: or do you need to think about him as you
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: would have when you were observing that art in the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: era when it was created.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: It's definitely a creature of its time. But there have
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: been some opera directors that have chosen to update these
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: storylines for these reasons because they don't feel as contemporary
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be, you know, celebrating art that degrades women.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think? Can we cancel art? Should
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: we cancel art or artists if they've done something terrible?
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I personally am anti cancelation, but I'm definitely pro honest conversations,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: because these conversations are important, whether you're talking about art
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: or life, and by canceling something, maybe you lose that
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: avenue for having these important conversations. Maybe this is holding
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator of such acts accountable because
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: we're not forgetting what they've done.
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  Speaker 1: Bridget Cormack is Deputy editor of Review in the Weekend Australian.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: It's the home of all the best journalism about the arts,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: culture and entertainment. You can check it out anytime at
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au. Thanks for joining us
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: on the front. Our team is Jasper Leik, Kristen amiot Let, Sammerglue,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Tiffany Dimack, Joshua Burton, Stephanie Coombs and me Claire Harvey.