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Interview with Matcha Moments, Monique · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan, this is my Cohosongjun.
0:04
Hello. Hello.
0:05
And we're the cofounders of Sanko Matcha Products.
0:07
Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
0:10
Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.
0:13
And today we are happy to have Monique from Matcha Moments.
0:18
Welcome to the podcast. Hello guys, thank you for having
0:20
me here. Thanks so much for being on.
0:23
Could you tell us a little bit sort of about your background
0:27
and matcha moments and sort of the mission of of that page?
0:30
So I'm I'm Monique. I actually have a background in
0:35
the arts. I was trained as a classical
0:40
music singer and for a big chunk of my life I've dedicated it
0:46
towards the performing arts. For about a decade, I was also a
0:51
music teacher and a vocal coach. But in 2020 when COVID hit, they
1:01
had a major transition when I started this online education
1:05
platform which provides after school services and programs to
1:10
students. And that's when I discovered
1:13
this joy and passion for entrepreneurship.
1:18
So I realized that I love the challenge.
1:21
I love it when I able to give solutions to different problems.
1:28
And now I've embraced the life of an entrepreneur for much a
1:33
moment. It actually started as a YouTube
1:36
channel. It's still there.
1:38
It was a space for me to journal my daily experiences,
1:44
reflections about life and my existence.
1:47
So I would upload videos of me doing my daily matcha ritual and
1:55
because of that I get to consume matcha every day.
1:58
But this year I shifted matcha moments into a business of
2:04
selling matcha. Initially it was just reselling
2:08
matcha famous matcha brands from Japan.
2:11
That was the easy way. So I was just reselling it.
2:15
But then when I dug deeper into the world of matcha, I saw this
2:19
need for local cafes and businesses to have access to
2:25
matcha they can use for business purposes.
2:28
Because the matcha that we resell from Japan are quite
2:31
expensive and not very attractive to be used for
2:35
business. So that's why it's more pop.
2:38
These popular matcha brands are more popular with home users and
2:46
not very popular. So we're just starting to get
2:49
popular with cafe use. And so I saw this need for to be
2:55
able to provide matcha for these businesses.
2:58
That's why I focused providing authentic matcha to cafes and
3:04
restaurants and that's where Matcha Moments is right now.
3:07
It's basically a matcha supplier for cafes and food businesses.
3:12
Very interesting. So Monique, you are based in the
3:15
Philippines, so can you share to our audience a little bit of,
3:18
you know, what's the matcha seem like in the Philippines And you
3:22
know, do you see a lot of single origin or single cultiva matcha
3:26
in the Philippines? What do people usually drink or
3:28
what do they like? In the past few years, matcha
3:32
definitely became popular in the Philippines.
3:34
Nowadays you can see matcha drinks offered in the menu of
3:39
almost every cafe but authentic matcha.
3:44
The use of matcha as or or the idea of matcha as tea is still
3:50
just getting started. Many still know matcha as a
3:55
flavor and not really as as tea. Like for example, when I started
4:01
sell matcha and I went to visit different cafes, most of them
4:06
would have a first experience with matcha's tea and they would
4:11
be surprised at it's actually tea.
4:14
It's the same as the tea that we enjoy, but this one is powdered,
4:19
so it's a. Interesting.
4:21
It's a very interesting thing for me to experience and matcha
4:26
again is expect pure authentic. Matcha is expensive here and so
4:32
many cafes and food businesses find it hard to switch to using
4:39
pure powdered matcha powdered tea from this flavored powdered
4:46
mix flavored matcha mix. So even the specialty coffee
4:51
cafes, some of them still use this flavored powdered mix only.
4:58
And so that's why the authentic matcha is mostly popular for
5:02
home users than the cafes. But I've seen many specialty
5:09
coffee shops switch to using pure matcha and some of them
5:15
would be. One problem that I see is many
5:18
vendors would sell cheap matcha and put the marketing of
5:24
ceremonial to this cheap matcha. So many of these local cafes
5:31
would be using this marketing term as well that they're using
5:37
ceremonial grade when when they don't really know what it means
5:41
or at least not giving any information to their customers
5:47
what ceremonial grade really mean.
5:50
So definitely matcha has progressed here in the
5:54
Philippines, but the use of pure matcha, it's just getting
5:59
started. Interesting.
6:01
Do you think it's more of a push or a pull?
6:05
Are like the consumers trying to demanding matcha, pulling it out
6:09
of businesses, out of vendors saying we want a higher quality
6:12
product? Or is it people like tea people
6:16
or people who love Japanese tea or those vendors trying to sell
6:20
a better and higher quality matcha to change consumers
6:24
perception of what is what is good matcha?
6:27
Is it more consumer driven or is it more like vendor driven?
6:31
These these changes in your observation.
6:34
Sure. But I believe it's, it, it's
6:38
very much influenced by the price because that's why when I,
6:47
when I started this much of business, I was able to see a
6:53
breakthrough when it comes to shift to using pure tea Again,
6:58
It's it's more popular with home users right now.
7:02
The, the local cafes, of course, they know the value of using
7:06
high quality ingredients and that's what is good for local
7:12
cafes. And I truly believe that these
7:16
cafes and food businesses will be the true ambassadors of
7:20
Matcha because of they, they know the importance of using
7:24
quality ingredients and they have the passion, they have the
7:29
platform, they also have the audience.
7:32
And so that's why I'm focusing with business owners and local
7:37
cafes. But I think it's very much
7:41
driven by currently, it's very much driven by the price.
7:45
And that's why I want to give more TEA education so that
7:50
people will not just value the price, but also the story behind
7:56
Match. Very interesting.
7:57
How do you you know structure, you know your education content
8:01
and when you approach to you know, businesses or regular
8:04
consumers or you know people just like Matcha or want to know
8:08
learn more about matcha, What's your methodology and do you have
8:13
like priorities in, you know, educating consumers?
8:16
I'm still working on that because I'm actually a newbie in
8:20
the world of matcha, so I'm learning more every day.
8:24
And my content, especially in social media, was focused on
8:30
crafting matcha drinks because I'm working with cafes who who
8:37
are using it for the first time. So we have I have to give them
8:41
something to start with. I recently find that many there
8:45
are many who do that already. So you'd find so social media
8:50
influencers and matcha companies offering recipes or featuring
8:55
different recipes and so many people already do this.
8:58
So I'd love to focus more on tea education, but I'd love to
9:06
package it in a way that what that would use coffee knowledge
9:11
structure, what we already have an experience with coffee and
9:16
then connect that to matcha. So that matcha would be would
9:22
not be such a foreign thing. Like it's very alien.
9:26
It's still very new. And I believe sometimes I try to
9:31
take a step back and just imagine I'm a very new matcha
9:36
consumer and I don't know anything about it.
9:39
So I usually get the questions like what's the difference
9:42
between ceremonial and and culinary or these these stuff
9:48
that are very true. If you don't know anything about
9:52
matcha, you'd you'd be like, what's the difference, right?
9:56
Because one of the most successful specially specialty
10:02
products in the Philippines is coffee.
10:04
I love to use that success or that maybe tap on that knowledge
10:11
structure and then apply it to marches so that it will be more
10:14
relatable and people will not find it very, very alien.
10:19
That's my focus for the next content that I will be sharing
10:25
on social media. Cool, that's cool.
10:28
We were in the Philippines for the first time in 2018 and I
10:33
remember we were looking for a specialty coffee shops to work
10:36
out of and we're really into that scene and I think it was
10:39
somewhere in Makati. We found a really fantastic
10:43
local roaster and kind of became our office for the week.
10:47
But it was, at least by our perception, the places we had
10:50
travelled to. It's Manila seemed to be really
10:53
advanced specialty coffee, coffee culture compared to a lot
10:58
of other places even. Was that over five years ago?
11:01
Because when we were in Bangkok, it wasn't, you know.
11:05
Yeah, Bangkok at that time in 2019, you know, there was some
11:09
matcha, but it wasn't like everywhere like it is.
11:13
These things are happening fast. Yeah, really fast.
11:16
Really curious to see how that evolves.
11:18
And I, I think you're right, the through cafes, you know, they're
11:21
the, they have the platform already.
11:24
Yeah, they they already have this appreciation for high
11:28
quality products and definitely they would be the most
11:33
influential. I believe you'll be able to
11:37
reach more people through the platform of local cafes and
11:42
that's why I'd love to work with these people more.
11:45
Monique, you, you have a very interesting perspective in a way
11:48
that you told us that you are also a well SNK practitioner.
11:52
Yeah. And you have this, you know,
11:54
performing arts background. But somehow I can see the
11:57
connection, you know, between these two.
11:58
And also right now you're into specialty.
12:01
Mata, What's the ODA Sanke community like in the
12:04
Philippines? And, you know, you travel quite
12:06
far to the distance to the community.
12:09
Time to study ODA Sanke. It's quite a commitment.
12:14
Can you maybe share a little bit about, you know, like what's
12:16
your experience and how do you, you know what, what, what did
12:21
you learn and how, what's the community like over there?
12:24
The Odessangi community in the Philippines is quite active, so
12:29
there are the the whole multiple sessions throughout the week.
12:36
Wow. Very frequent.
12:39
Currently there's three sessions, 3 schedules per week,
12:44
and then they hold public demonstrations and host tea
12:49
gatherings open to the public every year.
12:52
But currently it's just located in one city.
12:55
City where you went to. It's in Makati, so only those
13:00
who live nearby can join. And when it comes to specialty,
13:06
much as a specialty product, I don't see the Udasankar
13:12
community in the Philippines pushing for pushing for that
13:16
because the focus of the the group is to practice and to for
13:23
the philosophy and the the preservation of this Japanese
13:29
tea, the art of that Japanese tea ceremony.
13:32
So definitely matcha is, is just a part of it.
13:39
I actually joined that with a thank community because I want
13:43
to learn more about matcha. We're taught how to handle it,
13:50
how to respect it, but it's just part of the practice.
13:55
It's not the it's, it's not the highlight.
13:59
The tea education as a as a product is not the focus of the
14:04
group. It's more of the practice of the
14:08
art of the Japanese tea ceremony.
14:10
So definitely if you want to learn about matcha as a product,
14:18
it will be you. You'd not be experiencing much
14:21
of that if you joined with a sink in practice.
14:25
Channel U. So that's when I.
14:26
Came from came from a Omoda sink background, and it's indeed you
14:32
learn the usage of, you know, matcha, how to handle matcha in
14:36
a ceremonial way, but not necessarily much of the self.
14:40
Yes. I bet a lot of people join Chan
14:44
OU because of they want to learn about more.
14:46
Matcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:50
Sometimes sometimes when some of my friends would ask how do I
14:56
join the with SNK school because I know they are very much in too
15:01
mucha. I usually tell them beforehand
15:05
that it will be a separate thing, so you would not expect
15:11
much about the mat. The tea education expect more of
15:15
a cultural immersion than than than the tea tea education
15:22
itself, so. But some of them still join, of
15:26
course. I mean, it's still very fun,
15:29
very cool. Very fun to be a guest.
15:31
Yeah. It's a big way towards a lot of
15:35
Japanese culture and art, Yeah, amalgamation of, you know,
15:40
calligraphy and traditional art and everything.
15:43
And also you drink matcha at the end in like 2 hours, 2 hours, 2
15:48
hours. And finally we can sip matcha.
15:51
I love the idea of the Japanese tea ceremony.
15:55
It's, I mean idea itself. That's why I got into matcha.
16:01
Yeah. I love the the experience of
16:06
being very present and involving all of her senses with, you
16:13
know, hearing the sound of the water touch the full and the
16:18
aroma of matcha when the water hits it.
16:22
It's a very relaxing experience. And for me it's it's an amazing
16:29
mindfulness exercise. That's why I really that, that's
16:34
what got start got me started with matcha.
16:37
My passion for it is the idea of the Japanese tea ceremony as a
16:41
mindfulness exercise. So yeah, I, I, I still, I still
16:47
promote the traditional preparation of matcha.
16:51
If you want to use it in that sense, if your intention is very
16:55
clear that you this is how you want to experience matcha in a
17:00
very mindful way, then definitely go for it.
17:04
I really like the intentionality of it too.
17:06
It's the economy of movements and there's like never a wasted
17:11
movement or step like how the guest or the host will never
17:15
turn their back to the guest unless it's like taking up the
17:19
wastewater bowl. So it really forces you to be
17:23
present as a student. Like it's just layers and layers
17:27
of learning about this hidden intentionality.
17:30
It's really hard to, it's really easy to gloss over that and not
17:35
even notice when you learn it. It's, I think that's something
17:39
that I've noticed in a lot of like the thing that separates
17:43
like a good matcha program from a bad matcha program at a cafe
17:47
in particular is the concept of economy of movements.
17:51
Like where is everything being placed?
17:53
If where is it placed, if it's dirty or clean and like a lot of
17:57
these setups, you have all this crossover of wet powder, dry
18:01
powder, powder spilled everywhere, dribble spilled
18:04
everywhere. And the really good ones, it's
18:07
not only do they have economy of movement and where it's very
18:10
efficient, but you don't have all this mess that can happen
18:13
when it's like pre planned. Interested.
18:18
In learning more about that, because again, I work with cafes
18:23
and I don't really that didn't really come into my mind like
18:28
giving them suggestions on how they set up their much, much
18:35
workspace. So yeah, maybe we can try to
18:39
think of ways on how to make it better with with a set of cafes.
18:45
Maybe you can share what do you think is best?
18:48
We did a podcast with JEV from MTCH in Bangkok and he has he
18:54
has a very interesting philosophy around this.
18:58
And the workstation for all three of his cafes are identical
19:03
to the centimeter. So that like any himself or any
19:07
of the baristas could probably blindfolded like prepare a drink
19:12
because the everything's muscle memory.
19:14
I like China, you like I found like all like the like a lot of
19:18
my teachers. I'm like very confident that
19:21
they could do it blindfolded like they just made no because
19:23
everything is same. Like I remember being corrected
19:26
and said no you need to move it like two more centimeters this
19:29
way. Interesting.
19:35
In this way, probably a lot of modern cafes can learn from this
19:39
very traditional art that had been perfected for entries.
19:43
I think that's something that you know, instead of
19:46
retrofitting the equipment being used.
19:49
You retrofit the process. The process, yeah.
19:52
Yeah, I wonder how they will be able to set that up knowing that
19:58
there will be of course a big machine for the espresso and you
20:04
know some, some of these cafes don't have that much space.
20:08
But yeah, definitely the much space would usually look sad and
20:14
empty, so. I'd love to explore that idea
20:19
more and maybe help help elevate their much of workshop much of
20:25
workspace. Yeah, there's the economy of
20:27
space, too. They have economy of space, it's
20:29
true. They have to adapt it and right
20:32
now it's in neglected little corner.
20:34
Unfortunately, we have a lot of. We have a lot of very sad
20:38
looking utensils. As you like approach these
20:41
different coffee businesses, like what messaging have you
20:45
gone in to try to sell to one of these businesses or get them to
20:49
have higher quality matcha didn't work very well.
20:53
And what what's messaging that's been very successful, like
20:56
beyond like it's a higher quality ingredient.
20:58
Like how does that what is the context you need to share with
21:03
someone to get them to make a decision?
21:06
But yes, we want to promote high quality matcha, specialty
21:10
matcha. We want to, you know, level up
21:12
our matcha program. So it's on the same level of how
21:16
much we care about the coffee. Like what, how, how does that
21:20
conversation go and and how does it go good or how does it go
21:23
poorly? Usually I approach it in in a
21:25
way of featuring the profit that they can get.
21:29
OK. For example, I currently I
21:34
Ioffer three types of much. I have like the low, low tier,
21:38
the mid tier and the most expensive one not really very
21:44
expensive. I priced it for business use.
21:47
So I give them the costing how much, how much will be the match
21:52
per drink? How much will be the cost of
21:55
match per drink? And then add in all their other
21:58
costs and what will be profit margin for each for each.
22:04
So usually that's how I, I'm able to sell the idea that you
22:09
can actually still earn a good profit by using pure matcha
22:15
instead of using the, the powered flavored.
22:21
Yeah. And, and usually one of the
22:26
things that makes them really do their shift is to taste it.
22:30
So I do tea tasting and then assemble the matcha.
22:36
They're, they're then and there and let them taste the
22:39
difference. Sometimes if they would have an
22:42
available matcha mix there, I, I don't usually do that, but they
22:47
would know the difference. It's totally different because
22:51
most of the cafes that I go to, it's the first time that they
22:55
would experience pure tea, pure matcha tea.
22:58
So most most likely I I'm able to change their mind.
23:05
I also give if the the cafes are far from me, I give them samples
23:10
and then give them the a guide on how to do the tea tasting
23:15
very specific so that they can recreate the same experience.
23:20
I want them to experience when it comes, when they taste the
23:24
teas and most likely these cafes would change your mind and shift
23:32
to using pure matcha and offer it in their menus.
23:35
So I, so that's, that's the thing.
23:40
I either I gave tea tastings or give tea samples.
23:44
I send samples to these cafes and then they experience it
23:48
themselves. It's very important that these
23:51
this business owners experience, experience and taste it.
23:55
That's how I usually do it. That's interesting.
23:57
My girlfriend used to sell fine chocolate in Hong Kong from a
24:01
French company. And I was asking her about like
24:04
what that was like. Like, like she was selling to a
24:06
lot of like nicer hotels or nice restaurants.
24:09
And I'm like, and it was like single origin chocolate, very
24:13
well processed. And I was like, OK, like, what
24:15
was the sales pitch to these people?
24:17
And she was like price and then or two is and then tasting like
24:25
it seems like how a lot of these B2B type sales and relationships
24:30
start. It's like 1.
24:32
Is it economically viable? Yeah, I also experienced, I
24:36
learned it. I learned, I learned it the hard
24:39
way that I approach cafes who are not very much into this
24:45
fast-paced serving like. OK.
24:50
I can't remember. There's this one cafe approach
24:53
and I said, would you like to try your matcha?
24:55
And then, and then said, oh, just send your samples because
24:59
it's in the, in the city where I live.
25:01
So I said I can go there and do the tasting, but please help me
25:05
with the, with the water, with the ice and these materials.
25:08
And then the cafe told me you don't want to give you this much
25:13
time and just give us a samples. And I'm like, how to prepare it
25:18
in front of you and do show you how it's done.
25:21
So I, and then I just took a step back and looked at the at
25:26
the cafe and it's this very fast-paced cafe who offers
25:31
cheaper drinks. I realized that these are the
25:35
cafes that would not fit the at least for now, would not accept
25:42
the idea of using high quality ingredients because they're more
25:47
into fast-paced. They're they're prioritizing
25:50
quantity. Yes, more of the quantity than
25:53
the quality. So I've shifted my focus to
25:57
approaching specialty CAF, specialty coffee cafes or those
26:01
cafes whom I think would but have more appreciation using
26:07
high quality ingredients like pure matcha.
26:09
Based on the preferences of the local market, do you think
26:12
people in the Philippines are more or less likely to like like
26:16
the really umami heavy profiles or do you think they'd be more
26:19
like the roasty, toasty yami style?
26:22
Like what's the local preference like in terms of just flavor?
26:26
Because, you know, we learned in Bangkok that like, people like
26:28
the umami quite a bit, which is a price like mainland China.
26:33
That's familiar. No one, no one likes the woman.
26:35
Well coming from my experience selling matcha, I sell matcha
26:42
from yame so most OK most of the most of the cafes I approach
26:49
100% would really love the the profile and use interesting in
26:55
latte form. Even even in Usuchar in in
26:59
Osuchi forum they they love the toasty profile of yame matcha.
27:06
So definitely I cannot remember any other vendors who sell yame
27:11
matcha here so I cannot really give comparison.
27:16
But for the profile that I'm able to give with matcha from
27:22
Yame, the most of the cafes really love it and of course
27:26
their customers like it as well. So maybe in the Philippines,
27:31
though the preference is more for this toasty yummy matcha
27:37
then rather than the umami forward much of the other place
27:42
in Japan. That's awesome.
27:44
Is a lack of bitterness very important?
27:46
We've we've done a lot of consumer testing and collected
27:49
quite a bit of data on consumer preferences in the Philippines.
27:52
And we noticed that compared to a lot of other markets, there
27:56
was a real sensitivity towards bitterness.
27:58
Yeah. And most of the context seem to
28:03
be very negative. I'm curious at how that
28:06
translates in matcha well. I was surprised this past few
28:10
days because I've been giving some samples of this matcha that
28:15
has more bitterness. It's it's a second harvest
28:18
matcha, so. So I wasn't expecting people,
28:23
especially the home users who are used to using the popular
28:28
Japanese matcha brands, to like this profile of more bitterness.
28:33
Maybe it's because of the profile of a Yami matcha, but I
28:38
was surprised that so many people like it in latte form and
28:42
they like the bitterness because it cuts through the milk and all
28:48
the other sweeteners say the although all the other
28:52
ingredients used for latte and more, even in the Cafe, they
28:58
really love this matcha with a little bit of bitterness because
29:02
the flavor, especially for latte, the flavor was able to
29:08
cut through the other latte ingredients.
29:12
So I had a very interesting experience this past few days
29:17
with this kind of matcha very. Interesting.
29:19
Yeah, that is interesting. Well, I can totally see that
29:23
working. Like balancing out beverage.
29:25
Or offer some kind of structure to the overall flavor profile.
29:29
Of some bitterness, especially if the status and if like the
29:33
status quo is mostly these pre mixes.
29:35
You know, they have like a lot of other flavors in those pre
29:38
mixes too. It's it's, you know, it's not
29:40
just the much of much of flavor. Yes.
29:44
So it's interesting where you have something that's like with
29:46
a lot of strength, that's almost an ingredient that holds up to
29:50
that holds its own in the kind of get masked.
29:53
That's cool. We've been talking more and more
29:55
about that, how a lot of this matcha evaluation is done
30:00
without milk and it's just so far away from the way like the
30:04
majority of the world loves drinking their matcha and like
30:08
everyone's tasting notes. Like it's, you know, I don't
30:12
like my matcha with milk. So like it's unless personally
30:15
don't resonate it. But from a consumer centric
30:17
standpoint, it's like surprising to me that not more sensory
30:21
analysis and product evaluation or product optimization, like
30:25
people make barista grade matcha, but why isn't anyone
30:30
like really leveraging the like full spectrum of quality of
30:33
ingredients And then like specifically optimizing for, you
30:38
know, Milky context. It seems to be where like that's
30:41
where people are at. Like it's, you know, it's, it's.
30:45
This might be a little difficult because you know milk might
30:48
taste very different from country to.
30:50
Country. That's so true.
30:52
Yeah, yeah. I remember when I started my
30:55
matcha journey, I always consume also cha or sometimes GUI cha
31:01
and then I I do not want to use matcha for latte because I feel
31:07
it it's it's such a waste to use matcha, use precious matcha for
31:13
adding milk and other ingredients.
31:15
But when I shifted to matcha business, I had to learn how to
31:21
drink latte because I have to learn how to best the best
31:27
ratios for this specific matcha that I sell.
31:30
I had to drink latte every day, not just once, twice, sometimes
31:35
four times to recalibrate. And I.
31:38
Would drink. Drink the latte because I feel
31:41
it's such a waste to throw. It.
31:43
Oh wow, that's a lot of milk too.
31:46
Yeah. So I'm currently, I think that's
31:51
why more people appreciate this bitterness because we're still
31:57
we're still very young, we're still a newbie in when it comes
32:01
to tasting tea. This tea, and so right now
32:05
stands out. Will be is this latte flavorful?
32:10
I do I enjoy it Right now. That seems to be the case.
32:15
It should it should be especially for people who are
32:18
not very particular with their taste, with the taste of the
32:21
matcha. It just has to be enjoyable, so.
32:26
Yeah. Right now, as we are introducing
32:30
pure pure tea and pure authentic matcha to the Philippine Cafe,
32:36
it seems like it's it's this is it.
32:38
Right now we just have to work with what is a flavorful and
32:43
tasty matcha latte and what will be the matcha that that suits
32:49
this preference of consumers. I've noticed too in tasting some
32:53
of the lattes, especially in Bangkok and in Thailand that the
32:58
the base drink like when you go to MTCH you can choose different
33:01
matcha to be mixed in in different latte contexts.
33:06
The variety of flavor expression is enormous, like some will
33:11
taste like chocolate, some taste like very umami, some are like
33:18
toasted nuts and very nutty when mixed with it.
33:21
And I was in North Thailand in Chiang Mai, and I met Tom from
33:26
Chaseki and he had an Uji Hakari cultivar Gelato and I tasted it.
33:32
It completely changed my perspective of milk plus matcha
33:38
or milk in this case milk and sugar frozen plus matcha.
33:41
It had very little bitterness, which I thought was kind of like
33:44
a no no when it came to mixing matcha and milk.
33:49
But it was packed with umami. It was the first like full
33:54
bodied umami koicha tasting. I don't really have quite the
33:58
right word matcha Gelato I've ever had.
34:01
And the more it taste, there's like a lot of room to explore
34:05
too within that realm by I guess using different matcha from
34:09
different places or different regions or I guess even
34:12
different seasons to play around with that flavor expression and
34:16
to get something. But like one of these drinks
34:19
that I had in Thailand, honestly, if you put a blindfold
34:21
on me and you ask me what am I drinking?
34:23
I would have said, I don't know, frozen hot chocolate.
34:26
I wouldn't have even said. And I mean, that really is a
34:29
compliment. Like it was said very is is
34:31
wild. I don't know, it's there's a lot
34:34
to be explored. There the diversity of flavored
34:36
is pretty crazy. Here in the Philippines, we're,
34:40
I don't see that much exploration when it comes to
34:43
matcha and, and it's different profiles like especially for
34:49
specialty matcha like single origin or a single cultivar
34:53
matcha. It's still a very new concept
34:58
even in those even with those who use matcha at home, many
35:03
still do not know the cultivated varieties used for matcha and do
35:08
not know that there, there will be different expressions and
35:13
profiles depending on the cultivated variety that they
35:17
use. But I remember there's this Cafe
35:20
in the southern part of Metro Manila.
35:22
They, they try to explore different matcha food products.
35:26
And last July, they offer this Nori seaweed infused matcha
35:31
latte. And of course, you already have
35:34
an idea of how it would taste like.
35:36
But this one's interesting because they put salted caramel
35:41
sauce in it. And it's it's a very interesting
35:45
experience. I'd loved it, loved it.
35:47
I would like to try it again, but I would love to see more of
35:52
these happening more of these happening in the cafes here in
35:56
the Philippines. This exploration of different
35:59
ways to prepare and serve matcha food products because currently
36:05
there's it's more of the the usual pairing pairings for latte
36:12
and I'd love to see more of the exploration of these different
36:16
kinds of matcha products. Yeah, probably will bring a lot
36:20
of new consumers into the market because it's getting them a
36:23
product that they say, Oh yeah, I like this.
36:25
And then, you know, they want to try more matcha.
36:27
So like, the top of the discovery funnel is like
36:32
interest through something else. And then actually, in a way,
36:35
like China is kind of like that too.
36:36
Like, you're interested in like, deputy traditional culture.
36:39
And then you learn more about whatever it is.
36:41
Pick your topic, like the ceramics, the lacquerware,
36:45
calligraphy, calligraphy. Yeah.
36:48
Or tea or tea. Cool.
36:51
I was, I just want to know where you are at when it comes to the
36:55
the matcha meal because I'm very much excited about any updates
37:00
where, where you are at right now.
37:02
We are in the development of prototype #2 and we are on the
37:07
prototype 20 or 30 of our grindstone and the cooling
37:14
system and all the mechanisms. But we're getting there, yeah.
37:20
We were hoping to bring it with us to Japan this trip.
37:23
We it was it's not ready for prime time.
37:27
We have milled matcha that looks like matcha and it's the cooling
37:32
system's not the greatest yet. So it didn't taste great
37:35
compared to a reference sample, which was is Yusu milk.
37:39
But the color was correct and the particle size was about
37:43
right. Like when you do the street, you
37:46
couldn't tell. That's progress.
37:48
But were you able to reach the your goal of the five Micron
37:52
size? Five, yeah, we had a very crude
37:56
way of measuring it. We need to get it like
37:58
officially lab tested. Yes, of course.
38:01
Through a grindo meter we got down to 5 microns.
38:04
Wow. It looked like the distribution,
38:06
but like we were a little coarser than Ishiusu, so we have
38:10
to work through that. It's getting there.
38:12
It's getting there. Stay tuned.
38:14
Yeah, it's. Actually very difficult to make
38:18
sure it doesn't get too hot, and very difficult to make sure it
38:21
can grind fast enough. Yeah.
38:23
They all in a way contradicting each other.
38:26
Yeah, everything is fighting itself in this system.
38:29
Yeah, if you want to meal faster, the temperature is going
38:32
to rise and if you exert more pressure then you won't be able
38:36
to meal that fast because you have larger torque and.
38:42
You want finer particles, you need more pressure.
38:45
It's it's all very it's a big learning process.
38:49
We have failed enough that we're finally learning more to
38:54
hopefully reduce the risk of failure in the next version, but
38:57
it's. Really very exciting.
39:03
I'd love to. I'd love to.
39:06
Hopefully I can I can experience fresh ground matcha because I
39:11
haven't experienced fresh ground matcha.
39:14
Maybe the the best one would be 6 day old matcha but never
39:19
freshly ground matcha. I don't really know how it
39:22
tastes. Like, but it's, it's hard.
39:23
I mean, even in Japan, like we're in Kyoto, I don't think
39:27
there's anywhere where we could go in this city to get day old
39:30
matcha. Like it's just that it's like
39:33
not a thing here either. It seems to be really being
39:36
pioneered in the States and I guess a little bit in Thailand
39:40
from people that have very bravely and I don't know, it's
39:44
not a good word and. Well, I would say Brave is a
39:48
good. One brave is a pretty spending.
39:50
That much money importing the issue all the way from Japan.
39:54
That needs some very much money. Yes.
39:57
So it's, I don't know, it's such a new concept.
40:00
It's yeah. Yeah, yeah.
40:03
So yeah, no, we're, we're working on it and we're going to
40:06
do a little tour with the machine once it's ready.
40:08
So we'll certainly pass to the Philippines.
40:10
Yeah, yeah. Cafes and.
40:14
Yes I'd be. I'd love to tour you around to
40:18
different cafes and especially those who already started using
40:23
matcha. Awesome, that would be great.
40:24
So before we wrap up, how have your own preferences changed as
40:28
you have gotten into Matcha and sort of how, how is your
40:32
background, I guess in music and in Ersenge sort of influenced
40:37
like the way you initially approached it?
40:39
And how is your perception of enjoying matcha just in your own
40:43
personal journey? How has that changed over the
40:46
past few years? At the beginning of my matcha
40:48
journey, I used to consume Osucha a lot.
40:52
I hate that it's the same story of being able to consume a lot
40:57
of pure being so more of a matcha purist was which a Nazi
41:02
OK. And then definitely I was I was
41:09
able to see that more people had to adjust my preference as well
41:14
because I I am into the matcha business that more people would
41:19
appreciate matcha in latte in latte form.
41:23
So before I used to be, I used to consume matcha only as a
41:28
sucha and I'm really dislike the idea of a latte because it's
41:33
such a waste. So and now I whenever I drink
41:37
latte, I'd be very critical about the taste.
41:43
There's already so many things going on in my mind when I drink
41:47
latte, like how, how does how does the matcha fare with the
41:51
different ingredients and the balance of the, the flavors.
41:55
So it definitely changed like from being very much into pure
42:01
tea. Now transition, transition to
42:06
matcha latte because this is how I believe most people enjoy
42:13
matcha and will be enjoying matcha in the future, especially
42:17
in the Philippines where matcha is still very new.
42:19
I'm trying to grow with how the market is approaching matcha.
42:25
So for example, my preference when it comes to being precise.
42:29
For example, when I started my matcha journey, I only have a
42:34
big matcha set like the Chowan, the Scoop, and then of course
42:40
the matcha and that's it. I'd consume it every day.
42:45
But as I dove deeper into matcha and my my journey progressed, I
42:50
realized this need to be precise with the measurements.
42:54
So I invested on on a weighing scale and a temperature
43:00
controlled kettle so I can recreate the same experience and
43:05
the same taste and I can record it and for me to to have enough
43:11
data so I can share it to to the people I work with.
43:15
So definitely that change from being usual much a consumer of
43:20
not having any equipment to do precise measurements and now
43:26
it's shifted to making sure that I, I record the the experience
43:34
by using these equipment like the wing scale and the
43:37
temperature controlled kettle. So that that I was my preference
43:42
has shifted in that sense. Yeah, well-being, yeah,
43:45
replicating is, is so important. I've discovered too.
43:48
It's like if you don't measure or weigh the matcha, like, you
43:52
know, it's really hard to tell the difference between like, I
43:55
don't know, half a half a gram sometimes by just looking at the
43:59
powder volume. But like it's if you're using a
44:02
2G dose, you know, you go a little bit higher.
44:05
It's like a 20% increase. And.
44:08
I see so many of these precision school and, and like it's very
44:13
interesting that people are very much into the this this type of
44:18
tool when they can actually buy a weighing scale.
44:22
Actually that's one of my questions to you guys because I
44:25
would love to know if you also plan to design something for
44:31
weighing matcha. Yeah, because right now we're
44:35
we're we're using OK, because we're currently we're very much
44:40
into using the weighing scale for coffee, but it's still very,
44:45
it's not very accurate. So I'd love to have an equipment
44:50
that will be used for weighing matcha, almost like air, air
44:54
like weight. Yeah, it's very difficult for
44:56
weighing and dosing matcha is not that easy because the the
45:01
quantity is not very. The the sensitivity that you
45:04
need a very sensitive scale, but you're also working with like a
45:08
very heavy bowl and a lot of water.
45:10
And like usually scales either can support a lot of weight and
45:15
are less sensitive or they're ultra sensitive.
45:19
Max 100 grams. Yeah, or they need, they, they
45:23
need a lot of like, they need a very ideal usage environment to
45:28
be able to do it correctly, at least for, you know, the current
45:31
technology. They're usually used in
45:34
pharmaceuticals. You weigh the medicine powder
45:37
and they need a, they need to be on a very, very flat surface and
45:42
you often times need to put a little protection chamber on top
45:46
of it, like to prevent any, you know, airflow to influence to
45:50
it. But we are working on something
45:52
with the right compromises between cost and accuracy.
45:56
That is specifically for matcha and actually our our goal is to
45:59
have a sifter built in so you can ask for a certain quantity.
46:04
And then basically the value proposition to a business or
46:07
consumer is you just don't have to touch dry matcha powder like
46:11
you. You put the matcha in, it sits
46:13
in there and it sifts and doses it and then boom, it's in your
46:17
vessel and then you just use it. Maybe a good addition to the
46:22
matcha milk? Yeah.
46:24
Yeah. It, it will probably be separate
46:29
product in the beginning, but yeah, but we might incorporate.
46:33
Them. Yeah, that's the dream, where
46:34
it's together. So you say I want 2G.
46:37
It's fresh milk, so it finishes. Wow, such a dream.
46:42
That's a It's a more difficult and potentially expensive
46:46
problem. Actually, we noticed this when
46:49
we were weighing our fresh milk matcha.
46:50
When it's running very slow, if it just slowly, slowly, slowly
46:55
enters the scale, the scale can't register it, which was
47:00
wild to me. So if it's going in like, I
47:03
don't know, like .1g or even less at a time because it's so
47:08
little weight, whatever the trigger mechanism is in the
47:11
scale doesn't work. So we were like, oh, we're not
47:16
mailing any matcha. And then we go weigh it
47:18
separately. It's like, oh this is like 3
47:19
grams which we could tell by looking at.
47:22
It it was pretty expensive coffee scale.
47:24
Yeah, it was a nice. I think it's one of the hardest
47:26
scales or something so far. We found that this is really the
47:30
best scale for matcha the Acacia.
47:32
What's the brand? A Cassia Acacia.
47:36
I think it's a Japanese brand. My entirely short I.
47:39
Don't think so. Actually it's it's you.
47:44
You can put a bowl on it and click.
47:45
Tear a pretty heavy bowl and you get immediate .1g resolution
47:50
because a lot of these if your bowl is too heavy it doesn't
47:54
start registering any weight until like 2G.
47:57
I don't know why, it's very frustrating using some of the
48:01
coffee skills for matcha, but so far this one.
48:06
Works. Looking forward to that matcha
48:09
wings in the future. Probably a year out by the time
48:14
it's like full designed and manufactured.
48:18
But yeah, we're, we're slowly learning how this is all done
48:22
and the products are designed that that was a new area for us
48:25
too. So.
48:26
But is the freshly ground matcha?
48:29
Is the weight of the freshly ground matcha different from the
48:31
weight of the older matcha? Does it change?
48:36
Oh, that's a great question. Probably it's similar because
48:40
the moisture content's low. I can't imagine where the mass
48:43
would be transferred. Yeah, and it's not like coffee
48:46
because coffee holds a lot of carbon dioxide.
48:49
So I think like a couple percent of the weight will be lost in
48:53
carbon dioxide. Is it D gases?
48:56
But I don't think that exists within matcha.
48:58
Well, assuming it's perfectly sealed.
49:00
If it's not, then it might absorb some water moisture.
49:03
Not to go the other way, I do know that the volumetric
49:06
measurement is not good. It's not very accurate because
49:09
the density of matcha can change whether or not you sift it or
49:12
not. Like when you sift it, it gets a
49:13
little more fluffy, so it gains some volume.
49:15
For a cafe, a lot of cafes, it's probably fine, especially if
49:18
you're not changing matcha supplies.
49:20
Like different matchas, but between matchas it's the density
49:26
can change. I mean it's a problem with all
49:28
volumetric based measurement and a way a lot of these things are
49:31
packaged too. Some people like vacuum seal it
49:34
and the much it gets really tightly clumped.
49:37
But like others, you know it's a can and it's just in there.
49:40
So a little more. Fluffy.
49:42
It's also very different. Yeah, because I think with that
49:45
compaction you gets a little more dense.
49:47
And then also I, I'm not sure, but I'm very convinced that
49:50
different tensha has different densities.
49:52
It's just a suspicion. It's a hunch of mine, but maybe
49:55
between cultivars or different blends it's just naturally going
49:59
to be more or less dense depending on like how thick the
50:02
leaves were. For the tensha, how fibrous the
50:05
leaf is? Or how?
50:06
Yeah. Or how well they de stemmed it.
50:09
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah.
50:10
Because you don't have to de stem as much if you're ball
50:13
milling. So maybe ball mill matcha might
50:17
be more dense because you don't have to have just the tender
50:20
leafy leaf parts. So I bet there's too.
50:23
Actually, it makes sense. It's very different.
50:24
The leafy leaf is much less dense than the veins and stems
50:27
and stuff. Yeah.
50:29
Are you familiar with the bead smelling?
50:32
Because I I wonder if it's different from ball milling.
50:35
Is it different like the ball? Milling.
50:39
Thank. You because I saw that I
50:42
recently realized that where I source my matcha, it's actually
50:46
using this beads mill and and I'm like oh I didn't know I
50:50
should have checked but it maybe that's why they they are able to
50:56
sell the matcha in a lower price, but still has good
51:01
quality. I think it's very useful for my
51:05
type of business right now because if I use an matcha, if I
51:09
sell matcha ground in an issue, so it's it's going to be more
51:12
expensive. But for the business, business
51:17
use, I think right now the one that I source which is using
51:22
beads mill, it's it's just OK, but.
51:26
The only problem about bead or ball milling is that the the
51:29
powder mythology can be very round, so it would condense or
51:34
precipitate very quickly in a usucha form.
51:37
I guess it wouldn't matter too much in a like.
51:40
A latte. But I wonder.
51:43
If you would taste a difference if it's I mean there would there
51:48
be any texture difference like? Well, if it's sub, can you feel
51:52
it? Yeah, if it's sub 20, sub 15
51:56
Micron, it's pretty hard to detect the extra difference for
52:01
a human tongue. In the drink, yeah, I think
52:04
there's less difference, but it forms a lower quality
52:06
suspension. But when you touch it and feel
52:09
it with your fingers, the Ishiusu is very almost sticky.
52:13
It's the way those particles interact with each other,
52:16
sticky, clumpy and the ball milled ones are they have less
52:20
cohesive forces because there's a surface area.
52:23
It's much more silky soft when you touch it when you touch it
52:26
dry, but. Actually, don't doze dry powder
52:29
into your mouth, Yeah. Not usually new new matcha
52:35
consumption movement started here right?
52:39
Just one PEG scoop. I remember that's how I consume
52:42
matcha. The very first time I I I had
52:45
matcha I just really that was a total fail because I I put 2
52:51
tablespoons of matcha straight into the blender.
52:55
I think I was thinking why is it so clumpy?
52:58
And then I just packed it because it was such a waste, so
53:01
I was not able to sleep that night.
53:04
Yeah, I bet, although Brian from a Machu Macha does.
53:09
He intakes dry powder. Yeah, which?
53:13
Is very interesting practice, yeah.
53:14
He does something so cool Brian, he, he's starting a new brand in
53:18
Singapore called Matsu Macha. And he first tastes a little bit
53:22
of the dry powder. He takes 4G and he makes a
53:26
koicha. He drinks half of the koicha and
53:31
then makes an usucha. So he has it from most
53:34
concentrated to least concentrated form.
53:37
And it's like, oh wow, that's like a clever idea.
53:40
Did you get like 3 sensory data points for one?
53:44
And so it's like, wow, how do you even try this?
53:47
Yeah, I usually do that when I do koicha because it's it will
53:50
be a recent watch. Is it so?
53:53
What's? Extra yeah and I think you can
53:56
do like cut matcha in capsule form, so and then pop.
54:01
Direct consumption. Because you're immediately awake
54:05
without tasting any bitterness. And all doing all that, all that
54:10
preparation. Wow.
54:12
Next stage injection. Yeah, it's healthier than a
54:16
caffeine pill, Yes. It would be interesting if I if
54:20
somebody comes up with that matcha pill.
54:25
Matcha pill. I'm sure it exists in one of the
54:27
supplements. Yeah.
54:29
Yeah, health, Health aid. I don't want to know what's
54:31
inside it. Definitely ultra high end uji
54:35
matcha. Yeah, I also saw this matcha
54:39
cubes. I haven't tried it yet.
54:42
I wonder how it really works, Like it's already in cube form
54:47
and then we just drop it in the water.
54:50
Maybe you? Should.
54:51
Yeah, I saw that too. I've never talked to anyone
54:54
who's tasted it, but I read through some of the reviews and
54:58
some of the reviewers were not very kind.
55:00
But it's, it's clever. I don't know anything you can do
55:02
to reduce the, you know, the effort, headache and friction.
55:08
Like you just bring in more consumers to the category.
55:11
Yeah. And even within consumers in the
55:13
category, like sometimes I don't want or cannot spend 10 to 15
55:18
minutes doing it properly. So it's like nice having
55:21
options. You gotta meet your last minute
55:23
emergency matcha. Yes.
55:26
Cool. All right.
55:27
All right, I think that's all we have time for.
55:29
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with
55:32
a friend or giving us a rating. And thank you so much Monique
55:36
for coming on and really appreciate all the all of your
55:40
time and, and knowledge. Thank you very much.
55:42
Thank you. See you in the future, bye.