Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #676 Climate Summits, Immigration debates, and Confusion over Life: A Papal Headache w Phil Lawler

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#676 Climate Summits, Immigration debates, and Confusion over Life: A Papal Headache w Phil Lawler · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Good to be with everyone.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you're doing well.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've had a we've had a lot of questions uh about what the Pope is saying and what's coming out of the Vatican on immigration, on climate, on pro board politicians, etc.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to clear up a few things and have a good discussion about it with myself.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we call up someone that we know really well that's been at this for a while.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Lawler's gonna be with us today.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Phil's the founder of and director and editor of the Catholic World News that he founded in 1995.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: They provide daily headline news coverage for Catholic culture.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So Phil's been at it for a while.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get his opinion on it.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: A little background, Phil is from the Boston area, went to Harvard College, did graduate work in political philosophy at the University of Chicago before entering a career in journalism.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: He has previously served as a director of studies for the Heritage Foundation, editor of Crisis Magazine, and editor of the International Monthly Magazine Catholic World Report.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's written twelve different books.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's working on a novel now, his first novel.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's got seven children, he's got twenty-two grandchildren.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's a blessed guy.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: So hang on, buckle up, and we'll have him right back for the today's episode.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we have a lot, this will go out to our whole audience, but we have a lot of young guys joining us from Claymore.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mentioned it to you earlier.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Claymore is this big sword behind me.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's an apostolate for Gen Z men who are who voted for Trump, actually, Phil, but then wondered why.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do now?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: They they found something was wrong, right?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: They could see it, they could sense it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: We all can sense something, and now they're stepping into the church.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we are getting some confusion out of out of uh Pope Leo XIV.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: We thought we were done with that for a little while, Phil, after uh Francis, but I I want to get your view on it and see if you can help us through this a little bit.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: You wrote an article, the Pope's statement on the Durbin Award.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Supich here in Chicago, I'm uh outside of Chicago.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Supic gave Dick Durbin, our senator from the state of Illinois, a lifetime achievement award, and he is rabid, rapidly pro-choice abortion for abortions.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: He has been to his whole uh his whole political career, and it made us sick.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: It really made us sick to our stomach.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're expecting Pope Leo, if anything, to help us out with this, but he didn't seem like he did.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: He seemed like he supported Supits, and uh we're a little confused about that.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Shed some light on that for us from your perspective, will you, Phil?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I was disappointed with what the Pope said, but if you look at it carefully, it's being interpreted as support for Durban.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: What he's saying is he's saying, well, it's really a variation on the seamless garment theme that Cardinal Bernadine introduced years and years ago, the idea that you're not really pro-life if you're for the death penalty, you're not really pro-life if you're against unlimited immigration.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a serious problem with that way of analysis because they're not the same sort of issues.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: But what Pope Leo did not say, you know, you could put it the other way.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're not pro-life if you're not pro-life, you're not pro-life if you're pro-abortion.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the question before the house, as it were, was should the Catholic Church be giving an award to someone who's pro-abortion?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is no.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, if you if you parse it, if you look at it by the standards that Pope Leo set up, he would seem that the logical conclusion from what he said would be don't give this award to Senator Durban.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not the way anybody took it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's sort of predictable that nobody was going to take it that way.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was deflecting attention from the fundamental problem, which is Durban and Cardinal Supic.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, it was an award that should never have been suggested.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: We had 10 American bishops already on the record as saying it should never have been suggested.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: We had reports that the U.S.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Bishop's Conference was preparing a statement which would say the same thing that this he should not be given this award.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then the Pope steps in and says this, and it was confusing.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if that was the only thing, Phil, and I don't I don't know if if you're okay if I it take you there or not, but you know, it was quickly followed by this climate, you know, it's you know, this pro-climate change thing in the Vatican.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And look, we we all get it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: We you know, we've been Catholics, and we've been talking Catholicism and Catholic social teaching on this program, etc., etc.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: We all know we have to protect the environment.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: We all know that God gave us those tasks to to to go and keep until the garden.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we know that the globalists have been taking this climate exchange thing, flying around in their private jets, you know, just really h hypocritically, you know, taking the money, taking the money.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: We all know this.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And here's Pope, you know, Pope Francis did the same thing, you know, in with the globalists with this.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: We thought we were done with that.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um what do you what do you think about that?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Pope Leo, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger was there, and uh, you know, all the celebrities again.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the same, you know, I I I you know I'm just gonna call it uh for what it is.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's it's a garbage issue.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's something that it's uh the globalists take the control and the money, and we all know this.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's obvious to anybody with with eyes and ears.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to me, there's a lot of difference between the message that I heard for years from Pope Francis and what I'm hearing now from Pope Leo.
• 6:19
  unknown: Okay.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be honest and say that what I'm hearing from Pope Leo on sort of political issues still makes me uncomfortable, but not nearly as uncomfortable as with Pope Francis.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that at least if Pope Leo is more consistent and more forthright about what the church actually teaches.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as you say, we are here to be stewards, stewards of God's creation, and that really shouldn't be controversial.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: The problem comes out when church leaders seem to be endorsing what's a political agenda and for that matter, even a scientific agenda.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know there are a lot of scientists who are telling us that humans are responsible for climate change.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: There are also a lot of scientists who are telling us that that's bunk.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a scientific argument.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a scientist.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to get into this argument.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it would be wise for bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, not to get into this argument because the Pope does not have any particular authority on scientific questions.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And how about immigration?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'll hit you with one more.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, immigration, again, it seems pretty clear-cut to us.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Look at it's when I say clear cut, you know, we we have a lot of immigrants here.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have four grandparents from four different countries.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, you can't just have open borders, and we all understand that.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be some control.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing, of course, what happened in the UK, in Europe, in Italy, France, Germany, when they've just opened the borders and it's just chaos to the culture.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: We all understand this.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: You you can't just bring every person with every kind of culture in to set up their own countries within our country.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have to have some unifying factors, and we understand that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Without getting into the weeds on that, again, we thought we were done for a little while with the you know, the Pope Francis effect of just tear down those walls and let anybody in.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're we're kind of getting again that message.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is is it the same message, Phil?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it is it like you said, the other messages we feel a little bit better about it?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we're looking for any hope uh you can give us, but we also want the truth, huh?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, again, the truth is I'm not gonna be happy.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now convinced I'm not gonna be happy with what Pope Leo says about immigration because of just the point that you make.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in favor of liberal legal immigration.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in favor of letting people in as many as we can accommodate, if what they want is to become Americans, to be assimilated into our culture.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: If what they want is to take freebies from Uncle Sam, then no, I'm not in favor of letting them in.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: But the crucial point you make is before you have any immigration policy, you have to control your borders.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it doesn't matter what your policy is if people can just walk in.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we have not controlled our borders, and that's very high priority.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just for us, it's for the Western world generally.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have to control our borders and control and preserve our own culture, and we're not doing that very well.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when we let when we used to, you know, vet immigrants as they came in, you know, look at we we liked everybody that's can build a better life to come here, to your point, and be you know, liberal on that thought.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, we we were we're a nation, a Christian nation.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: We it wasn't many decades ago, and I'm not talking about today, but certainly we we were through history.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that was what kept us together.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the uh you know, based on the on the Decalogue, on the Ten Commandments, on the virtues and values and laws coming out of the uh of the Bible, and certainly Christians.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: If we dilute this country with just anybody, and we see this in in Europe, Phil, with with with uh is you know uh Muslims and with other cultures, you can you can't assimilate all of those people.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, you can't, you know, and they have to you know they have to decide that that you know they see what the United States, they see what America is about, and have to go along with that to some degree, you know.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a judgment call, you know.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Every country, and here too, the Catholic Church has always been pretty clear that a country has the right to control its own borders and to preserve its own culture.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So how many immigrants can you take in?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And now again, I'm talking about legal immigrants, I'm not talking about open borders.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: How many can you take in?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's obviously a judgment call, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: You might think more, I might think less, we can debate about that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the sort of moral issue that you say, well, if you don't agree with me on this, then that shows you're not a good Catholic.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Good Catholics could disagree on lots of issues, and this is one of them.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think you need some clarity on what does it mean to be pro-life.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are some issues that a judgment calls that we can debate about.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: There are some issues that are absolute, inherently evil actions that we cannot support, no matter what, abortion being one of them.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you if for our younger audience coming in, you want to open up that seamless garment again just a little bit, just briefly, and just to allow them to, you know, so they're gonna hear this more and more often, I think, Phil.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't mind, just a couple minutes on on that.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: The idea was cooked up in the 1980s.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was Cardinal Bernadine, and it was Governor Cuomo of New York, the first governor Cuomo.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea was that we want to have a consistent ethic of life.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other phrase.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: The seamless garment and the consistent ethic of life.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that means that you're pro-life and that means you're against abortion.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: It means you're pro-life and so you're against euthanasia.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: It also means, according to these people, if you're pro-life, you're against the death penalty.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you're pro-life, you're for government welfare programs to help the poor.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, do you see the discontinuity?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those those arguments are not the same.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you tear an unborn child apart in its mother's womb, you are deliberately killing a human being.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And deliberately killing a human being is always, always wrong.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Period, full stop.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you argue for one form of help for the poor and I argue for a different form of help for the poor, nobody, neither one of us is saying you should kill the poor.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying there are different ways in which to help the poor, and we disagree on them.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sort of argument that's healthy in a democratic society.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well what I think, uh, it's w you know, when we look at all of these issues again, climate, immigration, abortion, all of these things, like you said, need to be clear.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: When when you have a breakdown in our moral ethical foundation, especially when it comes to issues like life, you go down a rabbit hole there and you know you you start to promote youth in Asia.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: We promote uh death even of the you know mental mentally handicapped.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: We have young people now in Western countries that can now take their own lives, young people, because they say they're suffering from depression.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: When you start to twist God's laws into this mumble jumble of everything's the same and don't set these priorities of life, that life from the moment of conception all the way through uh to natural death, uh just like John Paul and the and the popes before them were very clear on these issues.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and you find out very quickly that when you start to twist and distort them just a little bit, the the the evil one is out there and and they'll take that as far as they can.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: They will.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And well, let me say two things.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, if you're a young audience uh should be reading things like Pope John Paul II, the Gospel of Life, even Gellium Vitae, or Veritata Splendor.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which makes the distinctions that we're trying to make here between some things that are judgment calls and some things that are really not judgment calls at all.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: The other point I try to make is if you want to try to be convincing about this seamless garment, this consistent ethic of life, I'd like to see you use it in both directions.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are Cardinal Supich and you think you believe that immigration is the moral issue of our day, well, I disagree with you, but if you think that, then why don't you say, okay, I like what Durbin's doing on immigration, but I can't honor him because of his stand on abortion.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: At least there's a consistent consistency there.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's never used consistently.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: The seamless garment is used to excuse politicians who support abortion, who support euthanasia, but are right in the eyes of Liberal Democrats on other issues.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like the uh LGBTQ, the you know, the same especially same-sex marriage, all of this, these same people that support the seamless garment that that don't really stand up for life in priority, like we're saying, uh, they it seems like, you know, right on the side, they've all, whether explicitly or not, support same-sex marriage.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, you know, Pope Francis was had famously had Father James Martin in a number of different times with photo ops.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And now I saw Pope Leo again, and you don't have to go there if you don't want to, Phil, but you see Pope Leo again there, and that you know, it just it's the photo ops.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that you shouldn't have people in the Vatican, that's up to the Pope.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: But these photo op opportunities and allow someone like a Father James Martin to come back into uh you know on his platform and stuff and say, hey, I was just with Pope Leo the 14th and et cetera, et cetera.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what Pope Leo says because Father James Martin will say it and then say, hey, you know, I I'm friends with Pope Leo the Fourteenth, just like I was with Pope Francis.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's this confusion, Phil.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's this confusion.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And can you imagine, Phil?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'll just throw this back to you.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a young person, this is what I'm concerned about mostly, Phil.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Young people coming in, they they they're on fire for the faith.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to help them, you know, wade through this confusion, or or maybe, and it's it's hard, but I'm trying to get them just to to stop the noise coming, you know, uh from the Vatican and stuff.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But but this is the Pope, you know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is, and all I can say is try to try to separate the noise from the signal, you know.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things on the this award for Durbin is I saw, I think it was MSNBC, I might be wrong, uh headline saying that the Pope had supported Durban.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, and Durban was grateful for his support.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there is no way you can read what the Pope said as support for Durban.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Support for Supic, maybe, but definitely not support for Durban.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you sort of know that's the way it's going to be played because it was not a clear statement in the other direction.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we have enough problems with the media distorting what the Pope says.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's predictable how they will deport it, distort it, and they'll no, they w they will be in line with the LGBT agenda and with the climate control agenda.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: All I'm looking for is clarity from the Vatican, from the Pope on matters of faith.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's look at we know again from Chicago we're from Chicago.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we all know Supic very, very well.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and you know, if you want confusion, just listen to him long enough.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Pope Leo knows that, you know, so I you know, to your point, I he has to be very careful, even sending a strong signal that he supports Supic.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was at pro-life rallies where Suprich was Buddha off the stage.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: In essence.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because everybody knows, you know.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Pope uh Leo has to know all that too.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to, you know, put you know, put you in a place where you don't want to go or make a comment that you don't want to make a comment, but the Pope's no fool.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: He has to know all this stuff ahead of time, doesn't he?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, he's from Chicago too.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: He he came, he's he was he was just a few blocks away from where I grew up, and we're almost there at the same time, you know.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, he he's aware of what's going on.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: He is, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it as and I think I'm in consistent here.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think that you you and I are going to be happy with what the Pope says on political issues, with what Pope Leo says.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think less unhappy than with Pope Francis, but still not happy.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we now Phil, when you say less unhappy, and I'm looking for some so I'm you know, I'm I'm looking for some optimistic points too.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to just berate anybody.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was so excited that he took the name Leo.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, here here's from Pope Leo XIII from what they that really put down Catholic social teaching so wonderfully, where John Paul uh and synthenemus uh anos picked that up a hundred years later and just brought it up to speed and just this beauty, right?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, ooh, we're gonna get back to some good solid stuff here.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when you say that, uh what do you see that's that's that's different uh other than optics, you know, uh original optics.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's not just optics.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because of my work as a journalist, Catholic journalist, I have been reading what comes out of the Vatican pretty much every day for, I don't know, 30, 40 years.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a very big, very big change with Pope Leo.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: What I see day to day, most of it is solid, some of it is beautiful.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you read his Wednesday public audiences, they're wonderful.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful teaching of fundamental Catholic material.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then he goes, when he gets into politics, I start going, I'm not so happy with this.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: But by and large, you know, he's he's quoting Saint Augustine constantly, which you can't go too far wrong with that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: No and he it seems to me that all of his instincts are to unite the church.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I'm hoping that with time that instinct to unite the church will make him understand that there are a lot of people out there who have been hurt in the last dozen years by by his predecessor, by Pope Francis.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And need to be reassured and need to need to be, you know, need to ha have their confidence restored that the rug isn't gonna be pulled out from them.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Any anything on the on the traditional Latin Mass?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna be one of the one of the issues where, as far as I can see, he does not have a strong Pope Leo is not particularly strong one way or another on the Latin Mass.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, unless you see the Latin Mass as a threat, which I think Pope Francis did, it just seems so such a no-brainer to say, well, there's a large number, large and growing number of people, especially young people who are attached to the traditional liturgy.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why not just let them have it?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something I'll be watching.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: That and there are some appointments to be made, and they'll probably be made this fall.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of prelates in the Roman Curia and in large cities, including Chicago, who are beyond retirement age.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And let's see who who he's appointing to take their place.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we know there's plenty of bishops, cardinals, we have good ones.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: We know we have good ones, but there's plenty of of very poor, if not actually bringing some evil into their diocese.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when Pope Leo, if he's not clear on these things, as as you know very well, and I'm saying this for our audience, you know, these bishops and cardinals, if they're not really aligned with the church's teaching, they use that, not only the father James Martins of the world, but but the prelates of the world use that to set up their own agenda.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's very clear to so many people.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have to, we you know, we gotta clean up this, you know, this mess.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Look at I know it's it's big because Pope uh John Paul II, Pope uh Benedict, they all tried to clean up some of this.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's big.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the church is big, it's all over the world.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we need just clear, clear voices.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe does he need a new marketing person or a communications person, uh Phil?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I'm I'm I'm I'm glad you said that about the Wednesday audiences.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I I got so kind of down, I I decided not to not to read too much of his stuff, but maybe I should be.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think you should on the the Wednesday audiences, particularly, but yeah, and you know, he's having audiences every day with one group and another, and most of the time I think what he's saying is excellent.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this is good in marked contrast with Pope Francis, who it seems like every day he would say something else that looked like a personal criticism of Phil Lawler, you know, and of course you don't it doesn't make you feel like he's acting as a father to you.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I get more of that feeling with Pope Leo, and I'm willing to give him a bit of a pass on the political issues because after all, those are not the issues on which the Pope teaches authoritatively.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's a problem insofar as it's confusing because people are looking for the political, trying to make it political.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: What happens and you know, we work with the John Paul II uh renewal center, we work with a lot of parishes and a lot of pastors, a lot of priests, and uh and they need that clarity for their own congregation because you know if you go to a to any parish, you have plenty of liberals within that parish that are you know Catholics for pro-choice and and for gay marriage and all this kind of stuff, and these poor priests are beat up already, and the last thing they need to do is get thrown into any more confusion where they just want to throw up their hands and go on vacation, you know.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's sad really sometimes.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And after a dozen years of terrible confusion coming from coming through the pontificate of of Francis, we really need to catch our breath.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, some of us are shell-shocked, and we need to catch our breath, and a different kind of generation of Catholics is coming up behind us.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, hang on.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You you let me let me ask you this.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and time our time is coming up, and I don't want to keep you too long.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: But those those younger Catholics seem to get it anyways.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's something you know, that's the mystery of the church, isn't it?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the beauty of the church.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to get your comment on that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know that you know, Vatican II, one of the big things, Phil, about Vatican II was the universal call of the laity to step up, right?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: The universal call of holiness for the laity, but also to step up and and do their part too.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: John Paul made it very clear that we're all priests, prophet, and kings.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we all we all have that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have the ministerial role of a priest, but we have a role of a priest in our own homes, our own communities, etc.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to step up.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's why when I'm working with young people, they have a sense that they want the truth, uh, but somebody has to be out there proclaiming it to them.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it we're gonna have to all take on a role of learning our faith better, really take on it seriously, and proclaim it to these uh, you know, and help these young people the best we can with the clearest voice that we can.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're right on target there.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Lay people, if you're not satisfied with what you see from bishops and including the Pope, about how to solve the world's political problems.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, give us some solutions.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Lay people are supposed to be coming up with a suit.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's hear those solutions.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see lay leadership that has a way to handle the problem of poverty, for instance.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: We all agree we'd like to do something to help the poor.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna do it?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Suggesting the same old, you know, LBJ, big government programs that's fallen flat, or you or you could say it's made things worse.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's come up with something better.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And let's and Phil, you know what, you and I all have to do a show on subsid subsidiarity.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there was, you know, we we were a generous people almost from the start here in the United States, and there's nothing better, just in essence, there's nothing better than you know what what happened with so many of these socialists, they are giving their money gladly to the government, and then they can walk away from these issues.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: What the gospel talks calls us to is I need to to to not only give some money away, but I want to see where it happens.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be involved in that.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so beautiful the way that happens.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and and we really need to get back to that.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the problem is now with our and look at Phil, I don't want to bring you down a rabbit hole now, but at the end here.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the the problem is now the government is sucking so much of the money away because they've grown so big, you don't have much left to give anybody else, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: These poor kids trying to get in the homes, playing these high property taxes and all these kind of things.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: We have to we have to move away from socialism and and neo-uh Marxism and communism.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And again, the popes, nine popes before uh Pope Francis spoke out against all those things.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm writing a handbook right now for young people, and and it this is on my mind.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I brought it up properly.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely right, though.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we we need to do it ourselves, you know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Stop stop asking government to do it, stop asking the church to do it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Phil, last question for you.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: How come a novel now at the end?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: All this writing, all of this work you've been doing, all this editing and and political activism, and now we're gonna write a novel.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very interested to to hear you know, partly it was started out for fun.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have 22 grandchildren, right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So so it are you're starting to think maybe I gotta start putting some novels together, or is it it it is is that got nothing to do with it?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think this might be my only novel, the only novel I have in Mink.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: But partly was, you know, I was deeply involved, as you know, in writing about the whole sex abuse scandal.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned a whole lot.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as a journalist, I try to keep high standards.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I can't prove it, if I can't demonstrate it, I'm not gonna print it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot that I know that I'm morally certain that I know that I can't print.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's It's about corruption in the church and it's sort of soft core corruption.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about the gross corruption that we saw exposed in the sex abuse scandal.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about the soft core corruption, which is behind behind the scenes of what we've been talking about for the last half hour, which is it's a corruption of the faith.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's treating the faith as secondary and treating things of this world as primary.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think over the years I've learned a lot about how the church works and the traps that people fall into, and that's what my novel is about.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I like that.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, let it let let me know when it's it's ready to be published.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have you back on.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh it's coming up in a month or so, right?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's coming out in November, and I'm do you know the date?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is somebody publishing at 40 years?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Sophia Press is publishing it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Date is I think November 17th.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhere around there.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's coming soon.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, Sophia will probably get a hold of me because uh they sent me a list of of authors uh uh you know to to decide if I if I want to interview somebody.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll watch for your I'll watch for your name.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think well, I hope you I hope you'll enjoy it if you get a chance.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's not probably what people expected of me, but the people who have a lot of friends who've read the draft have enjoyed it, and some have said very nice things about it.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: So beautiful, beautiful.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Phil, thank you so much.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Phil Lawler, everyone.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Phil, get give us a a little heads up on you and your wife.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're you're you're on Twitter.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you have a website.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Give give us a couple on the way out here, will you?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you can look me up on Substack and my wife, Lila Marie Lawler, who I think has been on your show.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, she has.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: She has her Substack, and together we do our podcast, which is called The Home Front, which you can also find on Substacks.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Excuse me, just getting over cold.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the place to look for me now these days.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: We will.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: We'll I'm gonna let everybody else go, and you hang on just for a second with your thanks, everyone.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us today.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to you again soon.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.