Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / The Case for Zionism | Thomas Ice

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The Case for Zionism | Thomas Ice · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The week in Bible Prophecy a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Speaker 2: I'm Gary Steerman. With me doctor Thomas Ice, and in
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Speaker 2: front of me, I have a book called The Case
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Speaker 2: for Zionism, and you have doctor Ice. Or may I
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Speaker 2: call you what everybody else knows, Tommy? You may, Tommy.
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Speaker 2: You've written this book and I think it's very timely
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Speaker 2: and this is a subject that needs to be clarified.
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Speaker 1: It does, in fact the reason we call it Zionism
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Speaker 1: instead of just Israel is Zionism is the modern movement
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Speaker 1: that began one hundred and fifty years ago or so
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Speaker 1: that resulted in the re establishment of Israel. Also in
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Speaker 1: the Bible, the term zion Zionism is used over one
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Speaker 1: hundred times, and it when it uses that, it sometimes
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Speaker 1: refers to Drew Slum. It sometimes refers to the nation
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Speaker 1: of Israel. But it's got kind of an optimistic context
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Speaker 1: throughout scripture, you know, like Christ is going to come
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Speaker 1: and reign from Zion, yes, you know, in the future
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Speaker 1: and everything and as opposed to Israel, you know, fits
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Speaker 1: whatever you know the context is talking about in a
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Speaker 1: particular book.
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Speaker 2: Well, growing up, I want to run something past you.
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Speaker 2: Growing up. I often heard, you know, as I was
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Speaker 2: a toddler in church, and I would hear the phrase
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Speaker 2: God's chosen people in conjunction with Jews, the Jews, and
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Speaker 2: they were more often referred to, at least in the
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Speaker 2: circles that I kept growing up, they were more often
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Speaker 2: referred to as God's chosen people than they were Jews.
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Speaker 2: And today that phrase God's Chosen people has kind of
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Speaker 2: dropped off into oblivion, but they're still I guess God's
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Speaker 2: chosen people. In what way are they God's chosen people?
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Speaker 1: Well, that goes back to the Abrahamic Covenant, you know,
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Speaker 1: land seed and blessing. That part of it is they
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Speaker 1: have a particular real estate that was given to them. Secondly,
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Speaker 1: that through Abraham and his descendants, they're going to be
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Speaker 1: a global a blessing and that includes the Messiah coming,
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Speaker 1: Jesus and everything. And that's the third one, the blessing.
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Speaker 1: And even today, the largest religion in the world is Christendom.
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Speaker 1: Christendom refers to everything and anything related to Christianity, cults
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Speaker 1: and all of that. And there's actually half a billion
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Speaker 1: more Christians than Muslims. See, sometimes they'll try to tell
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Speaker 1: you Muslims or the largest thing. But in one sense,
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Speaker 1: Islam has some elements of the Bible in it, you see,
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Speaker 1: or the Quran and all of that kind of stuff.
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Speaker 1: But so the influence of Israel in the world is
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Speaker 1: often spoken of in the Bible as Zionism or Zion,
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Speaker 1: and it's spoken very affectionately throughout the Bible of Zion
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Speaker 1: with a future.
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Speaker 2: Look, I remember a historic event called the First Zionist Congress,
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Speaker 2: and I've read about that in several books. Eighteen ninety seven,
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Speaker 2: eighteen ninety seven, And there may be some people who
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Speaker 2: have never really studied the First Scientist Congress. What happened there?
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's a whole thing leading up to it.
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Speaker 1: And you have this secular guy, Theodore Hertzel, who was
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Speaker 1: a newspaper guy from Austria, and he was sent to
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Speaker 1: Paris to be the newspaper guy for back in Austria,
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Speaker 1: to cover things in France. And he saw the what
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Speaker 1: trial was that the you know, where a French officer
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Speaker 1: who was Jewish was basically stripped and sent to an
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Speaker 1: island in Africa simply because he was Jewish.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and I remember, well, except the name has fled my.
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Speaker 1: Mind, right And actually ten years later he was you know,
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Speaker 1: they admitted that it was a wrong trial and he
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Speaker 1: was sent free. Yeah, even though Hertzel was Jewish, he
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Speaker 1: was very secular. But this opened his eyes and he said,
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Speaker 1: we need to have a place where the Jews can
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Speaker 1: move to. And so he started the first Zionist Conference
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Speaker 1: with that in mind. And he said at the first conference, today,
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Speaker 1: I have founded the modern state of Israel. And what
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Speaker 1: he meant was and these people came from all over
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Speaker 1: the world, Jewish representatives to these successive conferences that began
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Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety seven, and so they began laying the
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Speaker 1: groundwork for the re establishment of the modern state of Israel. Now,
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Speaker 1: the European Jews were tended to be opposed to Zionism
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Speaker 1: because they felt very comfortable and happy living, you know
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Speaker 1: in the First World of Europe, and you had a
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Speaker 1: lot of people from Poland and various countries like that
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Speaker 1: in the Eastern Europe were very pro re established in
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Speaker 1: the nation of Israel. And so you've always had a
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Speaker 1: split among Jewish people re established in the modern state
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Speaker 1: of Israel. But it was with the Balfour Declaration andeen
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Speaker 1: nineteen after World War One that really got them going.
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Speaker 2: So there was a lot of conflict that had sort
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Speaker 2: of lain dormant for thousands of years. And suddenly and
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Speaker 2: the Dreyfust case came to mind. That was the name
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Speaker 2: we were fishing for him. In the Dreyfus case stirred
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Speaker 2: the pot just a little bit, but the ingredients were
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Speaker 2: all there, I think, is what we should say.
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Speaker 1: And Hertzel died in his early forties because he worked
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Speaker 1: himself to death.
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Speaker 2: And but.
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Speaker 1: And he kept going to different leaders in Europe to
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Speaker 1: see if they would help re establish the Jews. And
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Speaker 1: he had various people. One guy that helped him had connection.
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Speaker 1: He was actually British, but he lived and he was
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Speaker 1: a high ranking official for the British government, but he
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Speaker 1: was of European descent and he helped Hertzel a lot.
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Speaker 1: And then when Hertzel died, you know, the first president
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Speaker 1: of Israel, what was his name, he took over and
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Speaker 1: shepherded the movement and they for when Israel declared itself
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Speaker 1: a nation, Harry Truman, I call him the cussing Baptists
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Speaker 1: from Missouri. He recognized seventeen minutes later he recognized Israel. Well,
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Speaker 1: what was interesting his whole cabinet that he inherited from
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Speaker 1: Roosevelt were totally opposed to it. But a guy named
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Speaker 1: Clark Clifford was this personal assistant. And Clark Clifford Railroad
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Speaker 1: could have been a believer from what I've read. He
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Speaker 1: supported Truman. And so they smuggled this guy who was
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Speaker 1: Truman's who had a habit ashery they call it in
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Speaker 1: Kansas City, and he was Jewish. And they smuggled a
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Speaker 1: guy into the water Light House and rolled up carpet,
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Speaker 1: and he lobbied at the last minute because Truman didn't
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Speaker 1: want to hear it from anybody, you know. But Truman
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Speaker 1: had read through the Bible six times by the time
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Speaker 1: he was fourteen, and frankly, when I look at his theology,
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Speaker 1: he was probably a social gospel guy. But he knew
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Speaker 1: the Bible, and he knew Israel had a future just
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Speaker 1: from his reading of the Bible. And God took out
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Speaker 1: Roosevelt and put Truman in. I think so that Truman
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Speaker 1: could recognize Israel about.
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Speaker 2: Fifty years from eighteen ninety seven to nineteen forty seven,
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Speaker 2: and you messed Theodore Hertzel and the first Scientis Congress,
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Speaker 2: and then World War One, and then the thirties with
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Speaker 2: the Nazis coming up to nineteen forty seven was a time,
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Speaker 2: I guess you could say Israel it was thrown into
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Speaker 2: a boiling pot. And from God's perspective, Israel was being
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Speaker 2: forced to come back to the land.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but the British initially were all for Israel being
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Speaker 1: re established, and then other people took over and they
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Speaker 1: fought the reestablished of the nation of Israel.
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Speaker 2: You know, as I'm listening here and talking with you,
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Speaker 2: there's a theme that just keeps rolling through my mind,
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Speaker 2: and that is Satan hates the Jews. Oh yeah, but
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Speaker 2: God loves the Jews and he has planned for them.
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Speaker 2: And I go back to nineteen thirty eight in Germany
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Speaker 2: Kristel knock, yes, and you can say, oh, my goodness,
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Speaker 2: that was horrific. That should never have happened. Why did
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Speaker 2: that happen? But then from the other perspective, it was
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Speaker 2: part of a series of events that brought Israel back
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Speaker 2: to the land. Well.
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Speaker 1: Even Martin Luther the last five years of his life,
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Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Jews in Their Lives. He
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Speaker 1: thought early on that the Jews would be open to Protestantism,
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Speaker 1: a new form of the Gospel, but he was sorely
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Speaker 1: disappointed and he became extremely anti Semitic. Hitler quotes Luther
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Speaker 1: three times in mind comp And so by the time
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Speaker 1: of World War Two you had a secular Lutheran church
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Speaker 1: that was very anti Semitic and ripe to be taken over.
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Speaker 1: And that's what happened. Now in Germany, the people that
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Speaker 1: tended to support the Jews were the Plymouth Brethren. And
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Speaker 1: there's many stories, there's whole books I've read about how
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Speaker 1: they would hide many of the Jews, the Plymouth Brethren,
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Speaker 1: in their houses and in their communities and everything. And
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Speaker 1: they saved tens of thousands of Jews in Germany during
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Speaker 1: World War Two.
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Speaker 2: And we know many of them close personal friends of yours,
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Speaker 2: had to flee. Right, And we have watched all this,
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Speaker 2: and this brings us right up to today, today's television programs,
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Speaker 2: today's television news. Who is shooting rockets at whom? It's
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Speaker 2: the theme of the hour. And as I'm listening to
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Speaker 2: you talk, it just occurs to me this is merely
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Speaker 2: a continuation of what's been going on now for one hundred.
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Speaker 1: Years, right, And Israel has you know, a lot of
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Speaker 1: the you know what, they've been around seventy five years
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Speaker 1: now roughly, and so many of the In fact, I
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Speaker 1: when I was there, I've been there a number of
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Speaker 1: times over the years, and we would have a general
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Speaker 1: will often come and talk to us, like when you're
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Speaker 1: overlooking armag at It and you know the valley of Megido, right,
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Speaker 1: and they would talk about how We're tired of wars
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Speaker 1: in Israel and I'm just hoping my son doesn't have
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Speaker 1: to fight in the IDF and all of this. Well,
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Speaker 1: uh so they kind of let you know, gone through
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Speaker 1: phases where they let their they let down on being
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Speaker 1: ready for the for the kinds of things that are happening.
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Speaker 2: But they.
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Speaker 1: They thought that they were going to be able to
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Speaker 1: wipe them out.
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Speaker 2: Well, going back to the title of your book, here
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Speaker 2: the Case for Zionism, And I'm looking at at the
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Speaker 2: table of contents, what is Zionism. We're sort of defining Zionism,
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Speaker 2: but I'm not sure we've fully defined it at this
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Speaker 2: point in time. Where what exactly is Zionism? And the
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Speaker 2: answer I think could be very very long.
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Speaker 1: Well, the answer is that it is a movement that
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Speaker 1: wants to see the Nation of Israel re established and
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Speaker 1: Jews return to the land. Because the word Zionism has
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Speaker 1: usually a pop positive connotation, and it's well over one
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Speaker 1: hundred uses in the Bible, in the Old Testament. And
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Speaker 1: so therefore that's why the term Zionism was chosen.
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Speaker 2: Once used the word once to see Israel back in
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Speaker 2: the land, which and as you said that, I had
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Speaker 2: an image in my head that where I'm watching television
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Speaker 2: and I'm seeing hundreds and even thousands of students marching
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Speaker 2: and chanting from the river to the sea. And on
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Speaker 2: the one hand, here's Zion. On the other hand, here's
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Speaker 2: anti Zion, which seems now to be developing at a
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Speaker 2: breakneck pace in all the higher places in the land. Financially, academically.
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Speaker 2: What's going on here.
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Speaker 1: Well, it's twenty five years at least of I call
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Speaker 1: it pagan, pagan in doctrination, pagan about Israel in the
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Speaker 1: universities and everything. And part of it is these Muslim
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Speaker 1: countries have given billions of dollars to universities, and they
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Speaker 1: have established Islamic studies and all the and so what
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Speaker 1: we're saying is they basically have shifted the American universities
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Speaker 1: to a very anti Israel thing, and so especially in
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Speaker 1: the Ivy League and various places like this, they where
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Speaker 1: a lot of Jews go because they're smart people, you know,
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Speaker 1: they've started to persecuting him. It's finally broken out. And
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Speaker 1: I've noticed in these rallies probably about fifty percent of
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Speaker 1: the people in the rally are Muslims, you know, because
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Speaker 1: and the other half are regular Americans. You know, So
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Speaker 1: they've had an influence on regular Americans.
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Speaker 2: But I may just interrupted, would you say that what
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Speaker 2: you're talking about is just the latest iteration of a
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Speaker 2: Bible theme that stretches back for thousands of years.
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Speaker 1: Yes, except America. Why do we have so many Jews
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Speaker 1: in America? Because historically America is different. It was not
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Speaker 1: anti Semitic. In fact, a Cotton Mather you may have
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Speaker 1: heard of him. Sure, he wrote a whole book. He
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Speaker 1: only had four hundred and fifty books published during his lifetime.
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Speaker 1: A real slackered You know.
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Speaker 2: What did he do in spare time?
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Speaker 1: Well, I don't think he had spare time. But nevertheless,
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Speaker 1: he wrote a whole book about how he would love
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Speaker 1: and ask God that he could lead a Jewish person
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Speaker 1: to Christ. And so they romanticize the Jews early in
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Speaker 1: the Puritans, early in America, and they some people say,
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Speaker 1: well they taught replacement. No they didn't. They tried to
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Speaker 1: be like Israel. In fact, at Harvard Hebrew was taught
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Speaker 1: for the first five years, but Greek wasn't really. Yes,
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Speaker 1: And I'm just saying, you had this tremendous influence in
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Speaker 1: the colonies before we were founded, of Jewish and Hebrew influence,
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Speaker 1: and the Americans that came over were very pro Israel.
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Speaker 1: And we've always been pro Israel until recent times. But
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Speaker 1: even today, a poll showed just last week that eighty
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Speaker 1: three percent of Americans are still pro Israel today eight
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Speaker 1: three percent according to this pole. Wow, scientifically done Pole.
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Speaker 1: And it's just that these all this money coming in
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Speaker 1: from Muslim countries is being used to make, you know,
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Speaker 1: to sponsor all these anti Israel rallies and to get
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Speaker 1: a lot of the regular American students involved in these
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Speaker 1: kinds of protests.
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Speaker 2: Now we think back to pre World War two days
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Speaker 2: and what was happening in Germany and other places in
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Speaker 2: the world, and how God was preparing the Jews for
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Speaker 2: a rush back to the land. I'm looking at chapters
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Speaker 2: three and four of your book Chapter three modern Israel's
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Speaker 2: right to the land, and that word right interests me.
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Speaker 2: And then the next chapter is modern Israel's legal right
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Speaker 2: to the land. Two different things here.
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Speaker 1: Yes, Israel was given the legal right to the land
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Speaker 1: in after World War One, where you had the dividing
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Speaker 1: of the nations, and then they didn't finish dealing with
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Speaker 1: the Middle East. You know, I forget the name of
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Speaker 1: the conference, but they had a separate one in San Remo, Italy,
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Speaker 1: which is very close to Spain, and called the San
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Speaker 1: Remo Conference, in which the Americans were not there because
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Speaker 1: they didn't participate in spite of what Row Wilson wanted
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Speaker 1: in these kinds of things. But you had Japan and
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Speaker 1: all these other representatives there from World War One who
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Speaker 1: wrote a document that is legal, that said that the
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Speaker 1: Jews have the right to they call it Palestine. I
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Speaker 1: don't like that term. It's Israel.
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Speaker 2: Well, I think it kind of descends from Philistine.
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Speaker 1: It does, and it wasn't implemented until AD one thirty five.
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Speaker 1: And that's why I don't like looking in maps and
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Speaker 1: it says Israel Palestine at the time of Christ know
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Speaker 1: no one, you know. And that's why when we did
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Speaker 1: the Timilhay process study Bible. We didn't call it Palestine.
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Speaker 1: We called it Israel. Israel and the Time of Christ
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Speaker 1: for example.
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Speaker 2: But these.
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Speaker 1: Gave in the international community, in the international courts, the
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Speaker 1: legal right to the land to Israel. And we had
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Speaker 1: a guy in our preacher conference one time who's written it,
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Speaker 1: wrote his PhD dissertation at the Swiss University University of
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Speaker 1: Geneva showing that his dissertation, it's like twelve in our pages,
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Speaker 1: showing that Israel has the legal right to the land
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Speaker 1: and that's recognized by the international community back at the
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Speaker 1: end of World War One, and of course they conveniently
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Speaker 1: forget about it.
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Speaker 2: You go to legal rights. And as you're talking, in
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Speaker 2: my mind is this vision of an all night wrestling
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Speaker 2: match between Jacob and the Angel of the Lord. Right,
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Speaker 2: let's see where did that match take place? Oh, right
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Speaker 2: in the heart of Israel. I've been to that location.
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Speaker 2: If you have been to the location, yes.
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Speaker 1: And they had a first century church that was there,
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Speaker 1: and you can stand there because it describes the location
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Speaker 1: in the Bible, and stand there and look at it
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Speaker 1: and look in the different directions that are described in
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Speaker 1: the context.
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Speaker 2: Look north, southeast and west, and you will see what
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Speaker 2: has been given to you. That's right. And by the way,
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Speaker 2: Jacob's name was changed to Israel. I mean, how do
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Speaker 2: you deal with that? It's as obvious as can be.
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Speaker 1: Well, you don't you know, you say, well, that's Old
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Speaker 1: Testament and the New Testament reproucemate theology is developed by
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Speaker 1: misinterpreting the New Testament.
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Speaker 2: And by the way, I was going to ask you
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Speaker 2: that your chapter five asks the question what is replacement theology?
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Speaker 1: Well, it's the belief that the Church has replaced Israel,
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Speaker 1: whereas you and I believe that God has at least
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Speaker 1: two plans one for Israel, one way of salvation, by
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Speaker 1: the way, from all the way back to the beginning,
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Speaker 1: by grace through faith alone.
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Speaker 2: Many people have thought that the Church is the new Israel,
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Speaker 2: right at different times, and.
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Speaker 1: Therefore the replacement of Israel, and therefore any future potential
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Speaker 1: prophecy about Israel really refers to the Church. And that's
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Speaker 1: what we call replacement. The all of the Church has
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Speaker 1: forever replaced theology. I just got a two volume, two thousand,
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Speaker 1: two thousand page book by a guy i've debated who's
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Speaker 1: a preadtist and postmillennialist, and he the title of the
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Speaker 1: book is the Divorce of Israel.
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Speaker 2: Predict Now to define that that word from someone who
23:42
Speaker 2: may not be familiar with it.
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Speaker 1: Right, there's four ways that you can relate to time, past, present, future, timeless, okay,
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Speaker 1: and Preaterism believes that the Book of Revelation in Matthew
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Speaker 1: twenty four and all of those were fulfilled in the past,
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Speaker 1: asked with a surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in eighty seventy.
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Speaker 2: Okay.
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Speaker 1: Historicism is like the Seventh Day Adventist and that was
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Speaker 1: a very popular form of premillennialism, you know, in the
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Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, when a lot of the cults were founded,
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Speaker 1: so that they're about the only ones that still hold
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Speaker 1: that that the Book of Revelation is being fulfilled throughout
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Speaker 1: the Church age. So and all we're lacking is armageddon.
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Speaker 2: There are a number of complexities that I suppose the
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Speaker 2: enemies of Israel can use for their argumentation, and I
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Speaker 2: think point of your book is to clarify some of
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Speaker 2: those points.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we explain all this in the book. But futurism
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Speaker 1: is the view that we hold that there's future for
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Speaker 1: Israel and prophecy that's talked about as a future.
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Speaker 2: We think of the end of the prophet Ezekiel, you know,
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Speaker 2: from thirty cha for thirty seven, yeah, to the end
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Speaker 2: of the book. That's right. And when you read that,
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Speaker 2: how can you possibly mistake the destiny of Israel?
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Speaker 1: Well through replacement thinking, that's how and saying that you
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Speaker 1: have church tradition on your side, which you do. But
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Speaker 1: and then the fourth view is called idealism, and that
25:23
Speaker 1: is a curse on all your houses. These are just
25:28
Speaker 1: abstract ideas, and therefore they're they're awe temporal, meaning there's
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Speaker 1: no time relation, you know. So for example, a friend
25:39
Speaker 1: of mine, it was a student at Dall Simmery who
25:43
Speaker 1: went in this direction of a very well known scholar, says,
25:49
Speaker 1: you know, Revelation one to seven, Jesus comes, he comes
25:52
Speaker 1: every day, He comes again and again and again every
25:55
Speaker 1: day in many ways, you know, because it talks and
25:59
Speaker 1: you know He's going to come.
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Speaker 2: Again, diluting the idea of the Thursday specific.
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Speaker 1: Process, and so they're overpowering specificity in the Biblical text
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Speaker 1: with ideas.
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Speaker 2: Well. I would like for you to talk about your
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Speaker 2: chapter six, which asks a question are modern Jews descendants
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Speaker 2: of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and a lot of people
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Speaker 2: try to make the case that you really can't track
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Speaker 2: the genealogy and the Jews are a lost people and
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Speaker 2: they cannot be rediscovered. I suppose.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the only tribal identity is is the ones
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Speaker 1: that are preserved levi or you know, that have priests
26:41
Speaker 1: in their name, and you can that has been preserved
26:45
Speaker 1: the last names. All the others have been lost.
26:51
Speaker 2: And so.
26:54
Speaker 1: There are people that say that the Jews around the
27:00
Speaker 1: fifties or so, there was a country called Kazaria and
27:05
Speaker 1: they were surrounded you know, which is in southern Russia today,
27:10
Speaker 1: you know by the Mediterranean or what's that sea? Not
27:14
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean, but the yeah see there, and they didn't
27:19
Speaker 1: because you had Islam that was a single kingdom, and
27:24
Speaker 1: you had Christendom that was a single kingdom, and they
27:28
Speaker 1: didn't want to be subsumed into those two one or
27:33
Speaker 1: the other kingdoms. So they converted their leaders converted to Judaism,
27:40
Speaker 1: and as a result, a number of Jews moved there
27:46
Speaker 1: and they existed for about one hundred and fifteen hundred
27:48
Speaker 1: and seventy five years, and they were eventually overrun and
27:53
Speaker 1: it was primarily the leadership that converted to Judaism, you see,
27:58
Speaker 1: and the other Jews that came were primarily in the leadership.
28:05
Speaker 1: And at the end of their kingdom when they were
28:08
Speaker 1: overrun by the enemy, they were almost all the leaders
28:14
Speaker 1: were killed and destroyed. And so there are people like
28:20
Speaker 1: some preterists and others that try to say, well, the
28:23
Speaker 1: Casar theory is that eighty percent of the Jews are
28:26
Speaker 1: nothing but gentiles, you see, who converted during that time.
28:31
Speaker 2: And of course who would want to establish that, thinking.
28:35
Speaker 1: Well, people that are opposed to our literal view and scripture.
28:40
Speaker 2: And behind them would be a great Satanic whitewash and Satan.
28:49
Speaker 2: I'm positive from scripture. Of course, Satan does not want
28:52
Speaker 2: the Twelve tribes to continue in exist exactly.
28:55
Speaker 1: But obviously we know from the Book of Revelation that
28:57
Speaker 1: God knows who they are.
28:58
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what I was wanting you to
29:00
Speaker 2: talk about, because well, there is obviously going to be
29:05
Speaker 2: a total identification of the Twelve tribes. Yeah. Well, but.
29:10
Speaker 1: I know a guy in Houston who has the largest
29:14
Speaker 1: DNA company in America.
29:17
Speaker 2: And he.
29:20
Speaker 1: I show that in that chapter the Jewish people as
29:25
Speaker 1: a whole have this Jewish marker in their DNA, and
29:32
Speaker 1: he has identified that and he read my chapter on
29:36
Speaker 1: it and thought it was accurate, you know, as the
29:40
Speaker 1: guy with the largest DNA analysis company in America. But nevertheless,
29:45
Speaker 1: so we look at that chapter both historically and then
29:49
Speaker 1: with DNA that can tell you whether a person has
29:54
Speaker 1: Jewish heritage or not from the analysis of their DNA.
30:00
Speaker 2: The way the Lord works is to us very mysterious.
30:06
Speaker 2: I keep going back to nineteen thirty eight and crystal
30:09
Speaker 2: mark like that is usually summoned up as the kickoff.
30:14
Speaker 1: The night of the breaking of glass.
30:16
Speaker 2: The night of the breaking of glass, and if we
30:19
Speaker 2: can use the phrase, all hell broke loose at that time,
30:25
Speaker 2: and you could have stood there and watched books being
30:29
Speaker 2: burned and watched people being carted off to be killed.
30:33
Speaker 2: You could could say at that time that God has
30:38
Speaker 2: renounced the Jews, he has given them over, and they
30:41
Speaker 2: no longer count. They're going to be wiped out. You
30:44
Speaker 2: could have stood there shaking your head and you could
30:47
Speaker 2: have said that, and many did. Yes. But we're looking
30:52
Speaker 2: at things from a later viewpoint, and it's amazing to
30:57
Speaker 2: me looking back to October seventh, as we're talking right
30:59
Speaker 2: now to the present. We see a greater and greater
31:07
Speaker 2: potential for a very large Middle Eastern war, which of
31:10
Speaker 2: course the Bible cults for at some point. And we
31:13
Speaker 2: put all of that together with the contents of your book,
31:17
Speaker 2: The Case for Zionism, and you know, it's mind boggling.
31:20
Speaker 2: But as Christians, to me, it's breathtakingly amazing to watch
31:28
Speaker 2: God at work. Just the things that he's doing right
31:33
Speaker 2: now are beyond historical.
31:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially you know, we're recording this on the day
31:42
Speaker 1: that Nanyahu spoke to the United Nations, and in the
31:47
Speaker 1: last week or so, you know, we've heard about how
31:53
Speaker 1: Lebanon has one hundred and hundred and forty thousand missiles.
31:58
Speaker 1: You know, what's Israel going to do? They going to
32:00
Speaker 1: get rid of those? Well, guess what, They've knocked out
32:04
Speaker 1: half of them from what I've read, and they haven't
32:09
Speaker 1: even officially gone to war, you know, And they planted
32:12
Speaker 1: all these things that blew up the people's pagers, and
32:17
Speaker 1: they've done things on their computers that blow them up
32:21
Speaker 1: and all of this kind of stuff. You know, they've
32:23
Speaker 1: killed over five hundred people through those little things. Not
32:27
Speaker 1: to mention targeting you talk about targeting people, those were
32:31
Speaker 1: all the terrorists, and the ones that weren't killed were maimed.
32:35
Speaker 1: For the rest of their life, they'll have to be
32:37
Speaker 1: taken care of, you see what I'm saying. Yes, And
32:40
Speaker 1: so those Jewish people are really smart people and they've
32:45
Speaker 1: been planning this for a year and they were able
32:49
Speaker 1: to execute that. So I think, I do not think
32:52
Speaker 1: that Russia and Gog and Magog's going to take place
32:56
Speaker 1: in the immediate future. And I think the fact that Iran,
33:01
Speaker 1: which Israel has threatened they could demolish them with the
33:06
Speaker 1: nuclear bombs and everything if if they were to attack them,
33:11
Speaker 1: they're being there. Oh yeah, well some do. But Israel
33:21
Speaker 1: has a neutron, which means it goes off and forty
33:26
Speaker 1: eight hours later the all the bad stuff is gone.
33:31
Speaker 1: And but but nevertheless, Israel is not going to be destroyed,
33:40
Speaker 1: and we know that, we know it from scripture. But
33:43
Speaker 1: the Iranians are going to be destroyed. I think at
33:46
Speaker 1: the Battle of Gog and Magog, which I think and
33:52
Speaker 1: I may be wrong, but feel free.
33:54
Speaker 2: I will not contradict you in any way, but I'm
33:57
Speaker 2: very eager to hear what you think.
33:59
Speaker 1: Well, I think it happen after the rapture, before the
34:02
Speaker 1: tribulation starts, okay, in that interval, and it removes the
34:07
Speaker 1: Islamic world from being a fact a geopolitical factor, and
34:13
Speaker 1: obviously America seems to be going down, and so I
34:17
Speaker 1: think it's going to put the focus on Europe, which
34:20
Speaker 1: sets the stage for the Antichrist coming out of the
34:24
Speaker 1: revived Roman Empire Europe.
34:26
Speaker 2: And by the way, you have written on that subject
34:29
Speaker 2: and lectured on it, that the origin of the Antichrist
34:35
Speaker 2: is maybe a little different than most people think.
34:37
Speaker 1: Well, he can't be an American, can't be an American? Okay, Yeah,
34:40
Speaker 1: So you have the ten European nations that are going
34:45
Speaker 1: to be revived, and the Antichrist is going to head
34:49
Speaker 1: up that, you know. And it talks about how he
34:52
Speaker 1: militarily defeats three of them and then the other seven
34:56
Speaker 1: come under his reign. And it says in Revelation how
35:01
Speaker 1: he the Book of Daniel in Revelation both says he's
35:05
Speaker 1: the eleventh. In other words, as an individual from I
35:09
Speaker 1: think one of these ten countries, he is going to
35:17
Speaker 1: create that covenant. See, it's a covenant between Israel and
35:22
Speaker 1: the revived Roman Antichrist, it's not, you know, so any
35:26
Speaker 1: other covenant or agreement is not that which triggers the tribulation.
35:32
Speaker 2: Very interesting and very timely, by the way, because if
35:36
Speaker 2: you look in Europe, Europe is now undergoing a spiritual remodeling,
35:43
Speaker 2: if you will, and the old Europe is sort of
35:46
Speaker 2: disappearing and a new collectivist Europe is right.
35:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the top level. It's it's kind of like
35:54
Speaker 1: I've read and seen where there are revivals going on
35:57
Speaker 1: in Europe. You know that. Of course the media doesn't
36:01
Speaker 1: talk about it, but of course you know there and
36:04
Speaker 1: people are out preaching in major cities until they're you know,
36:11
Speaker 1: the police come and make them quit. And that there
36:14
Speaker 1: have been a lot of people saved in Europe, and
36:18
Speaker 1: so that would mean a lot of these Catholics, for
36:20
Speaker 1: example in France and places you know, are getting saved
36:24
Speaker 1: from the preaching of the Gospel. And I think we're
36:28
Speaker 1: seeing generally around the world a time of all kinds
36:33
Speaker 1: of countries historically that have not really heard the Gospel Iran,
36:37
Speaker 1: believe it or not. They think as many as three
36:40
Speaker 1: million Christians there that Iran has, you know, And I
36:48
Speaker 1: don't want to get off on the details, but that
36:50
Speaker 1: there has been a move of God for the last
36:53
Speaker 1: thirty years in Iran.
36:55
Speaker 2: Which you never hear about, right.
36:57
Speaker 1: But I happen to have a friend who lives in
37:00
Speaker 1: the Baltimore area, and the number two guy forty years
37:06
Speaker 1: AGO's daughter was at the library and she moved her
37:13
Speaker 1: foot and she hit a Bible and she picks it
37:18
Speaker 1: up and snuck it home and started reading it. And
37:23
Speaker 1: of course she gets saved.
37:25
Speaker 2: No.
37:26
Speaker 1: And the day and she had an arranged marriage. She's
37:29
Speaker 1: supposed to get married, and that day the guy she
37:35
Speaker 1: was marrying's sister came in the room and saw her
37:39
Speaker 1: reading the Bible, and the sister said, I'm a Christian too,
37:44
Speaker 1: And so her father was going to have her killed
37:50
Speaker 1: when he found out that she was a Christian, but
37:55
Speaker 1: they smuggled her out, you know, and she lives somewhere
37:58
Speaker 1: in the Baltimore area.
38:00
Speaker 2: Told.
38:01
Speaker 1: And so you have stories like this that have been
38:03
Speaker 1: going on, and they, like I say, they meet out
38:07
Speaker 1: in the woods, they do all kinds of stuff, and
38:10
Speaker 1: they have up, you know, between one and a half
38:14
Speaker 1: to three million believers and Iran.
38:17
Speaker 2: As you're talking, I'm looking at chapter nine, the concluding
38:20
Speaker 2: chapter of your book The Lovers of Zion, a History
38:23
Speaker 2: of Christian Zionism, and that's sort of in keeping with
38:26
Speaker 2: what you're talking about here, Christian Zionism. Let's talk about
38:31
Speaker 2: that because there's so much confusion right now in America
38:35
Speaker 2: and in Europe about how we relate to the Jews
38:39
Speaker 2: and to Israel exactly.
38:41
Speaker 1: And part of that chapter I talk about how the
38:44
Speaker 1: United States and many of our presidents early on were
38:50
Speaker 1: very pro Israel and they wanted to support Israel. Are
38:54
Speaker 1: the Jews, you know, before they became Israel, and we
38:59
Speaker 1: have that heritage and that's why, you know, the largest
39:04
Speaker 1: Jewish population in the world up until recently when Israel
39:09
Speaker 1: finally passed them, you know, live in the United States
39:12
Speaker 1: because we were philio Semitic, in other words, we allowed
39:17
Speaker 1: all of it. Especially the eighteen hundreds was the big
39:20
Speaker 1: time of immigration of Jewish people, you know, into the
39:25
Speaker 1: United States. And of course they have you know, I've
39:28
Speaker 1: been to Brooklyn and I've been there on the Sabbath
39:31
Speaker 1: when I've seen the Jews go walking to set to
39:35
Speaker 1: synagogue and various things like that. And you know, I
39:43
Speaker 1: think I told you earlier that when late great planet
39:46
Speaker 1: Earth came out in nineteen seventy. You know, back in
39:49
Speaker 1: the late nineties. I was at Hal Lindsay's house one
39:53
Speaker 1: day and he was telling me that he had over
39:56
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand letters from Jewish people people that got
40:00
Speaker 1: saved reading the leg Grown Planet Earth.
40:03
Speaker 2: Really, Now, that's fascinating, it is because when you and
40:07
Speaker 2: I would pick up that book and read it, that's
40:11
Speaker 2: kind of the last thing we'd be thinking of. Right,
40:13
Speaker 2: we're looking at prophecy through the eyes of gentile Christianity.
40:18
Speaker 2: But there's another point of view. Well.
40:20
Speaker 1: In fact, another friend of mine who's head of one
40:23
Speaker 1: of the major Jewish evangelism wrote his PhD dissertation at
40:29
Speaker 1: some universe was it New York University or no? No,
40:33
Speaker 1: that was Frichtenbaum. It was somewhere in California. On how
40:40
Speaker 1: between nineteen thirty and nineteen forty, how whole synagogues in
40:51
Speaker 1: Europe were coming to Christ And I forget which country
40:56
Speaker 1: it was, but one of them had like twenty four
41:00
Speaker 1: percent of all Jews had become believers. And they didn't
41:07
Speaker 1: start going to you know, gentile churches. They was starting
41:11
Speaker 1: their own churches and everything, and there was this huge
41:16
Speaker 1: revival before thirty and so I can't help but think
41:20
Speaker 1: Gary that in those when they were killing all the Jews,
41:25
Speaker 1: that a lot of these people who had already gotten
41:28
Speaker 1: saved were leading others to Christ in the death camps,
41:33
Speaker 1: you know, maybe one hundred thousand or something like that.
41:37
Speaker 1: And so God and all of those, all the leadership,
41:42
Speaker 1: and all these people were wiped out in the Holocaust.
41:45
Speaker 1: It's interesting when you read history, you know, there have
41:50
Speaker 1: been times of Christian revival among Jewish people.
41:55
Speaker 2: The old old phrase. In fact, my mother used to
41:59
Speaker 2: utter this on occasion. God works in mysterious ways his
42:03
Speaker 2: wonders to perform. And I used to hear her say that,
42:07
Speaker 2: and it made me, how does he do that? What's
42:10
Speaker 2: he doing? And that's exactly what we're talking about.
42:14
Speaker 1: But that last chapter. I spent a year and a
42:17
Speaker 1: half doing research exclusively showing most of my sources are
42:24
Speaker 1: from PhD dissertations that aren't published showing the history of
42:30
Speaker 1: Christian Zionism.
42:32
Speaker 2: The book is called The Case for Zionism. Doctor Thomas Ice.
42:36
Speaker 2: We who are familiar with him call him Tommy. Everybody
42:39
Speaker 2: calls you Tommy, right, and that just suits you somehow,
42:45
Speaker 2: very familiar and Tommy keep up the good work.
42:48
Speaker 1: Well, thank you.
42:48
Speaker 2: It's good, big a lot of time, but I'm going
42:51
Speaker 2: to be looking forward to your next book or your
42:53
Speaker 2: next whatever you produce is always interesting, and you are
42:58
Speaker 2: quite the researcher.
43:00
Speaker 1: Well, I hope that the Rapture comes next before I'm
43:02
Speaker 1: able to produce anything else.
43:04
Speaker 2: Amen, We'll see you here there or in the air,
43:08
Speaker 2: in the air.