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The Winter Park Renovation, 10 Years Later · Designing Golf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Winter Park is just a nine-hole municipal golf course in
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: a suburban town outside of Orlando, Florida. And 10 years
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: ago today, it reopened after undergoing what I would consider
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: one of the most important renovation projects of the modern era.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: On a budget just over a million dollars, Keith Reb
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and Riley Johns, a pair of Corn Crenshaw associates, transformed
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: WP9 into a terrific, fun, community-focused golf course. It's really
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a model for what municipal golf can and should be.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: So today, we're indulging in a little nostalgia. I'm talking
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: with Keith Reb about the Winter Park Project and what
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: we can learn from it, and what we maybe haven't
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: learned from it properly. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Designing Golf. All right, Keith Reb, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Thanks for being here.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Hey, Garrett. It's great to be on the podcast again.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: It's been a while.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: It has been a while. You were one of our
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: first Friday podcast guests way back in the day when
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the podcast was, from the sounds of it, recorded live.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: in a tin can. Um, but, uh, so it's been, it's,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: it's been many years. It's great to now have you
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: on the designing golf podcast. Uh, so the reason I'm
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: bringing you on now is that it is the 10th
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: anniversary of the renovation that you and Riley Johns did
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: at winter park golf course in Florida. In fact, the
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: day that this episode comes out, October 1st, 2026, if
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: my Googling is correct is exactly 10 years. to the
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: day from the reopening of WP9 after your and Riley's project.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It reopened on October 1st, 2016. So I thought it
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: would be a great time to tell that story, reflect
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: on the project, talk about its significance, and also talk
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: about some of the stuff that's been going on there recently.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: There is a bit of news to discuss. So first
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: of all, to start us off here, you actually live
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: in Winter Park, Florida, I believe. Yes, correct. I guess
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: you were then very familiar with the course before the renovation.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: What was it like before the renovation?
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Actually, what brought me to Florida was starting with Cora
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Crenshaw at Sugarloaf Mountain in Claremont, Florida. Then we moved
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: from Claremont into Baldwin Park area, which is right near
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Winter Park and everything. I drove by the golf course
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: quite a few times. It was pretty interesting because you know,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: just so how the streets interact and everything in the
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Gulf is right there. You got people hitting shots out
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: into the neighborhood. You got people hitting cars. So it
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: was kind of a, kind of a, you know, an
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: interesting spot there.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Um, it's very Scottish. Like it's, it's kind of strangely,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: you know, although it doesn't have much in common with
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: a dune land course, it's like, it is very intimate
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: with the, uh, with the town.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, parking avenue runs right there
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: between hole one and two. you know, as you walk
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: off the green, you cross park Avenue. So, and you
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: could just take a left and you'll be right down
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: in downtown winter park. And, you know what I mean?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: The significance of that, it was like the railway and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: how people used to come from New York into, you know,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: to play golf. And there, there used to be 36
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: holes actually right there. And then that's how they cut
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: it down to nine. And that was what was left over, um, from,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: from the, the 36 holes that were there. So we're
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: actually 27, actually, sorry.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: It was, yeah, I was 18.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: And then Another nine that was kind of by yeah. Uh,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Rollins college and everything, but you know, golf was a,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: was a hub there. It's, it's what brought people there.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: There was a hotel, the rail line stopped there and
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: you know, 1914, I mean, it's, you know, right in the,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: the kind of the golden age of architecture, golf being
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: built and everything in that time.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: So, yeah. I mean, that's another sense in which it
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: feels a little bit Scottish is that the train stop
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: is right there. It's like sort of, there's a relationship
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: between the mode of transportation and the golf course. So
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: when you, by the time you became familiar with the course,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: it was a little bit run down, right?
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it was just, it was
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: on his last leg, you know, that was a hundred
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: years of thatch, you know, locking up the soil. There
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: was a, the irrigation was on the last leg that
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: the superintendent there, Ed bachelor, he was basically spending most
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: of his time just fixing irrigation leaks on the golf course,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: not able to really, you know, tune things up. The
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: amount of roots that were growing in the greens, I mean,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: they were basically having to mow over roots on, I mean,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: on the first green. Over years, you know, just filling
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: the bunkers up. The bunker on hole number one on
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: the left-hand side had more elevation than actually green surface
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: for the first hole on number one, the green on one. So,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: it was just, you know, the soil was bad. The
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: irrigation was bad. The, you know, the turf had mutated.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: There was no really options other than just starting over,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: you know, there was no bandaid, there was no fix.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: The city could have chose to go hole by hole
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: and try to fix it. But by the time they
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: got to the last hole, they basically probably had to
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: start over again, you know? So, um, but But yeah,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: it was, you know, I mean, when Ed, when we
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: got there, Ed was like, look, I mean, if this
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: thing doesn't get renovated, you know, I need to probably
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: look for somewhere else to work. So it was exciting
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: for him to be there from the process from day
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: one and work with us all the way to the
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: finished product. You know, and that's kind of how it started.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: But I mean, what people don't realize, I was looking
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: through some of the old photos that I sent you,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: is how flat that place was. It was basically a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: polo field. And most people, when they go there, They thought, oh, well,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: you guys just kind of did something to the greens
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and tees and all these contours and the fairways and
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: things like that were there. And like, no, this was
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: basically at 1% gray, just flat as you could be
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: for a golf course out there.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the pictures of the old golf course, I had
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: never been to the old golf course. But yeah, I mean,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: just imagine dead flat in a way that even Florida
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: is pretty rarely flat. Dead flat. And, uh, and so
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the course does have a different character now. Now, you know,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of cities are in this situation with their
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: golf courses where in specifically your anecdote about the superintendent
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: spending most of his time hatching irrigation damage.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Is very familiar to me from talking to many municipal
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: golf superintendents across the country. That is what they're sort of...
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: But a lot of cities just keep going on and
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: on with this because they can't get it together to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: properly address deferred maintenance, much less do a renovation. So
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: how did it come about that Winter Park got its
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: act together to finally do something with, with the golf course.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, a lot of the people from the
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: golf channel at that time, uh, would, would go play
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: the golf course. I mean, it was still a great walk,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: you know, a great place to go get with friends
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and just hit shots around, you know?
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: So for those who don't know, I mean, winter parks,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: essentially a suburb of Orlando, which is, and so all
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the golf channel folks tended to be around there.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: A lot of them lived there. Matt Hagerty lived there,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: you know, Matt Janelle lived in that area, uh, Everyone
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: lived right there and it was kind of their place
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: to kind of just unwind and disconnect from the day.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: You know, they would start their day so early, they'd
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: go out there and play around. And it was every
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: time they were just like, look, we can be better,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you know? And that's where they kind of approached the
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: mayor at that time, Steve Leary. And then basically they
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: created like a golf advisory board to the city to
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: just kind of say, we have assets of the golf channel,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: these people that are in the industry right here. Let's
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: let them help us guide us in this, in this
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: process and, and help us make the right decisions on
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: going into this. Cause you know, cities do a lot
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: of great things and they're, they're professionals in a lot
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of different things. And, you know, sometimes, you know, redoing
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: golf courses, rebuilding golf courses and isn't in their, in
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: their best, you know, abilities, you know, in house. So,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: That was just that, you know, chance of the mayor trusting,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: you know, he came from the private sector. He understand
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: how to get things done and know to trust people
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: with the talents to get things and let them guide
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: the information. And that's kind of how it got started.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: They had the advisory board and then they basically kind
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: of said, look, you need to go out for RFP.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: You know, we need to get some people, professionals in
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: here to give us the vision of what this place
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: can be. Um, and that's kind of where it, you know,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: the RFP process was out and, you know, responded to that. And,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you know, we got awarded that, but yeah, it was a,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: you know, it was kind of a stressful time, you know, RFPs.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of people, when they got an
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: office and they got multiple people working for them, you know,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: doing an RFP response is not the, you know, it's
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: not that hard, you know, if you don't.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: You assign it to the person who works in your
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: office and does that. Yeah, exactly. That was not the
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: situation you and Riley were in at the time.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I was working at Yokohama, Japan, and
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: then I'm reading this RFP, and then all of a
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: sudden it's like, oh, you need to have this notarized.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, notarized? I'm like, I'm in Japan. You know,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: how am I going to go about getting this thing
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: notarized to even be able to be part of the
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: RFP process? So I have to go get my background
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: check at the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo, basically get on
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: a train to Tokyo and bring my paperwork, have it
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: notarized there, and then ship it off all the way
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: back to Winter Park. So it's just, you know, that
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: was a stressful time of, making those responses and, and, and,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: you know, all those different things that the city asked for. So, yeah.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: What was the pitch that, that you and Riley made to, uh,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: to the city, uh, at that time and, and, and
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: how did that result in you, uh, winning this bid
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: maybe unexpectedly, right? This is 10 years ago. You guys
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: are in, I guess, in your early forties now, you
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: must've been in your early thirties then.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: So, well, yeah, we were young unknown, but I mean,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: they knew, that, you know, we, they know the people
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: that we work for and, you know, and that was,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that was one of the things they said, well, if
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: you're going to do something out of the box or
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: something different, you know, who are you going to go
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: talk to, you know, maybe the guys that are working
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: for the best people in the field and, and actually
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in the dirt. And, you know, that's kind of how
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that was a help. But, you know, I think we,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: we just sat down to the city and we're very
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: honest and said, look, I mean, we, we, we picture
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: this golf course as a city park and that just
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: will happen to have flag sticks in it. You know,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: we want this to be part of the community. We
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: want this to be a connection. We don't want to
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: put up walls. We don't want to put up barriers.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: We want people looking in. We want people drawn to
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: this place and make it be welcoming. And, you know,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I think it was just that, I think it's also them,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: us wanting to partner with the city rather than it
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: just be a turnkey type thing where you'd send Ed
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: and his staff and everyone home. and then they come
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: grab the keys when we're done, you know? So it
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: was really a partnership with the city and, and using
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: their assets and the things that they have and what
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: they do good at and, and just partnering with them.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I think, you know, one of
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: the guys asked a question, he's like, I'm looking at your, your,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: you know, all your documents here and I'm looking at
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: your budget and I don't see a contingency here. And
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: we just said, look, you, the city are our contingency.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You're our partner. You know, you have, assets. You have resources,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: you have people that can come in and, you know,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: like we had other departments coming in and helping us sprig,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: you know, we had the, the, the, the boring come, the,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: the guys that actually do all the boring for the
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: city have the equipment to boring. Why would we spend
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: $ 40, 000 to hire outside company to run all the irrigation
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: under all the roads, you know? So I think it
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: was just them kind of saying like, look, like you
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: guys have assets. We have assets. you know, we're partnering
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: up and let's, you know, put the money where it
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: needs to be and get the best out of it. So.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: That can be a really tricky negotiation with a municipality. Every,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: every city's different. My understanding is that you, you actually
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: personally took on the role of general contractor for the projects.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And sometimes that's, sometimes like that's an issue with cities, right? Sometimes,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes the city might have rules about sending out bids
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and taking the lowest bid and, And that's how you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: sometimes end up with these projects that kind of follow
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the path of least resistance. And this doesn't always result
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: in the greatest golf courses in the world. Often it
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: results in very functional, perfectly fine golf courses. But nothing
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: like what you and Riley created at Winter Park. So
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: how was it that you worked out this deal that,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: you know, you truly treated this as a design-build project
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: within the city?
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I think, yeah, I mean... Yeah, where you kind
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: of go back to, you kind of think back about
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: kind of maybe some of the things, how naive we
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: were probably at the beginning, you know?
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were like taking on the role of
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: general contractor.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, taking the role of bonding out, getting
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: a bond, you know, that's, you know, they want, you know,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: if something goes sideways, they're going to come after, you know,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: it could, this could have been just a one and done, like,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: you know, this whole design thing that Riley and I
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: have been on this journey together on. you know, could
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: have all, all come to a screeching halt on our
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: first project. And, you know, it just, I think it's just,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I think when he, it comes
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: down to that common sense thing, you know, and people
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: can kind of look past that and, and they have
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the trust. I mean, that was the biggest thing in
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: the part of the city and the mayor putting trust
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: in us, you know, and that's like, we, we were
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: fueled by that. You know, we knew that we had,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: you know, taxpayers money put towards this project. And we
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: were going to try to get every, every, everything out
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: of that money that we could do to the city.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So it was, yeah, it was, you know, it was,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: it was stressful, but at the same time, we, I
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: knew we had the team, you know, when you have
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: a team of guys, we had, you know, we had Blake,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: we had, you know, Don Mahaffey and his team, his son,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: you know, we had, we had all these people kind
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: of together that all knew their parts and knew how
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: to do their, their, part of the puzzle to the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: best of their abilities. And I knew I had that.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It took away all that stress and worry of what if,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I don't think we had, and
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: then basically the speed at what we could move, we
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: had the full control to push and, you know, and
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: take the time. But with being the designers, being the builders,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: being the finish guy, basically when that grain's done, it's like, okay, like,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: let's spend it out. Let's get the sprigs, you know,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: let's get, let's get the sod, let's get going. You know, it's, it's,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that was our ability to know that we could move
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: at the pace that we needed to. And, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking of one of the, John Hahn
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: was the, the head of the parks and rec department.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And he came up to us one day, he's like, man,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: he's like, I love you guys. You know, I love
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: what you guys are doing. He's like, everybody wants to
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: have meetings about what you guys are doing and trying
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: to say something or try to jump in. But by
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the time everyone can get together to have a meeting
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: or want to even say anything, you guys are done
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: and it already looks great and you're onto the next thing.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: So I think it was, I think they, I think
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the community saw how fast we moved. I think, I
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: think they were surprised that a contractor could get in
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: and out in that time, a period of like three
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: months to build that. And, um, with, you know, three shapers,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: basically Riley and, Blake and myself out there in the field.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: That's how you did it.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Well, so what, what was the initial reaction from the
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: locals when you were even before construction, when, when you
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: were first presenting this plan to the city, was there
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: any pushback, any, any reassurances that you had to provide
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: the people that this was the right way to go?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, this is, you know, how you said, like,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: there's parts of the story that maybe some people don't know.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: But I mean, at the very beginning, there was a
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: lot of people telling people in the city or even
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Matt Hagerty or some of these other people that are
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: there on the advisory that like chose us to be
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: the people. And they're saying, what are these guys going
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: to do with $ 1. 2 million? Are they just going to
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: redress this place and like go on to the next project?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: They thought the budget was too low.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, absolutely. They thought there's no way that these
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: guys are going to be able to do it for
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: what what they did. And, you know, there was letters
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: written to the city that like kind of cast doubt
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: on what like why would you trust these unknown guys
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to to do this project? So they're getting all this
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: information in. And, you know, I mean, I'm sure there
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: was there was moments where they're like, you know, the
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: mayor put his, you know, reputation on the line. Matt Hagerty,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: all these guys kind of stood out there with us.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And didn't let that influence us or put that stress
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: on us. They weathered that and they took it on.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And that's how it got done. We could have been
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: bogged down in meetings constantly talking about, oh, well, can
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: we do this over here? Or is this bunker okay?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Or is this green slope too much? There's so many
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: things that could just drag the energy but they let
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: us just flow and go. And we, you know, that's,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the, what, what they got out of it.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: But yeah, at the very beginning, I remember they're saying like,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: so we got 1.5 and then, then they come back
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: to me and like, Oh, wait, wait a minute. We,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: that didn't work out. You know, you're gonna have 1.2.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: So like, even from the beginning, you know, we're already
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: $ 300, 000 out of the, you know, And are you guys
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: still comfortable with the budget? I just remember those always conversations.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Are you guys okay? Are you guys sure? Are you
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: guys sure? And, you know, and I was like, yeah, we,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: you know, no, just didn't even let that even, I guess,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I guess when you're saying that naive or just like,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: didn't let that number get in there to affect what
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: we were doing. You know, I mean, you know, that's
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: always on our mind, but yet when you start making
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: decisions like, you know, that the last two holes could
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: have probably, you know, been flat, you know, like, well,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: we don't have the money to, you know, we were
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: just got to, you know, throw some sprigs down, you know,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: and that's what we've kind of said the city like, look, don't,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: don't do liquided damages if it's a day's over, you know,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: because you just got to understand that we have one
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: chance of getting this, you know, right. And it wants
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: to be here for another hundred years type thing. So let's,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: let's not try to force it.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: So, right, jumping in here real quick to talk about
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America, or GCSAA. This
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: partnership makes a lot of sense for us at Friday Golf. Really,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: our company would not exist in its current form today
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: if not for the help and kindness of of superintendents
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: across the country and even across the world. GCSAA supports
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: more than 21,000 members worldwide, not just golf course superintendents,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: but also equipment managers and students and educators. Celebrating its
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: 100th anniversary this year, GCSAA continues to ensure that its
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: members are on the forefront of research, education, innovation, and
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: advocacy through a range of programs and services. To learn more,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: go to gcsaa.org. Check it out. Great organization, and we're
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: very proud to be working with them. Given that budget,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and we can get into the architectural aspects of the
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: plan a little bit here, what are the main ways
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: in which you can make a golf course better? in,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: you know, 10 years ago on a budget of essentially
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: a million dollars. What, what are you focusing on to
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: make the golf course better?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, on the first, you know, each site
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: has different, you know, you know, soils. So, I mean,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: your first thing is the soils and that's what we
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: understood at winter park. When we, when we did the
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: soil test and figured out that winter park is this
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: kind of special little kind of bluff of sand that
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: perks at like over 26 inches an hour. And the
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: place drained great even before we did the renovation, even
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: with almost eight inches to nine inches of thatch, like
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: heavy soil. So I think it's, you know, first of all,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: it's like, you want to see your soils, you know,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: but then that gets you turned it up. I mean,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing is, is, is a tree management, you know, is, is,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: is the big thing. And we're not anti-tree, it's just
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: right tree in the right place. And what happened over
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: time there is basically the city would have extra trees
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: from some event or extra from that budget year. And
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: then they would just send someone out there to just
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: start planting them in different places around the course. And
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, and it just slowly, slowly just choked off
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: those fairways. And I think that's a big thing is just,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: you know, solving your tree issues. Root pruning is a
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: big thing because, you know, people don't realize that the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: drip line of the tree is– you know, the roots
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: are going past that drip line. They're looking for that
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: easy nutrients. They're looking for the easy water. So root
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: pruning is a big thing and, and tree removal, you know,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: you know, figuring out the strategic places for the right bunkers.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: You know, that, that was the thing with, we did
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of thought because we didn't want to do
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: a bunch of, you know, Sandy scrapes or things like
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that at winter park. It's like, well, where's the most
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: strategic places you can place the bunkers and make people think. So,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Those are kind of the things. And then just find
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the right superintendent that understands when they understand that the
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: more nitrogen they put down on the ground, the more
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: clippings they're going to have and then some more thacks
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: that they're going to have. So when you have someone
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that kind of understands that first basic thing, like we're
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: not just going to make this thing green and just
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: grow a crop of grass that then also creates soil
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: and then then you lock out all your drainage. So,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: you know, there's, there's multiple ways of going about it, but,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you know, I would always kind of stay with the,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: you know, start out with the trees because the trees
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: in the shade and just making that understand that, look,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, turf needs sunlight and it needs
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: a certain amount. And, you know, with the turf that
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: you have, this is what you're going to, what you're
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: going to be able to work with. So.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Was there any angst from the city about tree removal?
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Did you face any? Did you have to explain yourself there?
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of those.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a pointless question because, of.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Course, the answer is yes.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, so the original arborist there was kind of
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: brought in at kind of the last minute. So it
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: was kind of like, and they're like, oh, well, you
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: need to sell this to the arborist. I'm like, oh, man,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you guys just threw me. threw me out there. So
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: we're walking on the first day, kind of just talking
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: about what we want to do with clearing, because again,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: there's an asset, the city has its own removal type thing.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So they boom right there. You guys can take down
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: your own trees as part of your, you know, your,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: your budgeting for the thing. So I'm sitting there trying
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: to explain to the arborist what we're wanting to do.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: And I can just see the first, first hole. We're
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: just like, this is, this is going to be a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: bit of a challenge. And, um, But then I think
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: it kind of got buy-in over time. There was trees
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: there that didn't need to be there. There was invasive trees.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: The biggest thing, there was tons of palm trees. If
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: anyone knows Florida golf courses, the wind blows, the storm
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: comes in, the amount of palm fronds, there's a mess.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: That's extra energy that that guy's got to keep up
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: with these things. So we basically, I think, we got
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: rid of all the palm trees. I think, I think
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: the last one went down like a lot, like a
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: month ago, all the whole project. Yeah. So, but I mean,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: on the same thing is, you know, I mean, the
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: arborist that was at that time, I think could come
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: back and see what we've done. We've, we've actually planted
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: more trees than we ever took out and we just
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: put them in the right place. And, um, so that's,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you know, that's a big thing for us is like,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: you know, right tree in the right place. mixing it up,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: not planting them in rows, kind of, you know, with
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: the magnolias, with the pines. So, yeah, I mean, it's always,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: everyone loves their trees and we love them too. But,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just, you know, that the turf and,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: you know, you're putting more nitrogen out there to try
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: to get the turf and you're pushing it. It's like,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: where's that right balance, you know? And now with the
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: arborist that's currently there, You know, I think over the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: years he sees more and more of the benefits of
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: what we've done and how those trees filter out different
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: areas and how we've kind of created new habitats around
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the course.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: So take me through the phases of construction. What did
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: you do when? How long did it all take?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: It took, it took a total of three months to
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: build the place. Uh, what we started off with is we,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: we completely sprayed out the whole, the whole golf course.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: And then, um, a friend of mine with laser turf, uh,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Joe Peters, he has his coral machine that they, they
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: do ball fields. So basis coral machine basically takes that,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that like two inches or an inch and a half layer.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So we stripped all that batch off the whole golf course.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Then we dug areas off the side of the golf course.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: We flipped up that premium sand. And then we flipped that.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: So really, we tried to recycle everything we possibly can.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: We're not trying to import. The only things that we
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: imported was the bunker sand. And then basically, we built
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: the green profile. And then we capped it with like
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: 20 inches of USGA spec sand. There's no drainage in
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the bunkers. And like I said, when we figured out
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing is when we figured out what we're
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: sitting on with that soil, that's like pure gold for drainage. Basically,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: we knew we could cut without creating drainage issues. I
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: think when people go there and they look at some
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: of these places, like even holes two and eight there,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: they stand in that low and we're lower than the roads.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And they're like, how are you draining any of this?
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: And what we did is we built these big sump systems.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: We dug out a large amount of earth in that
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: area we filled it with 57 stone and then we
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: choked it we choked it um with a little bit
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: of uh like a choker layer and then we put
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: sand on that and then we put a big pipe
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: in there and that just takes that first that first
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: release of uh the rain and then gets it into
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the soil and perks it out so that's you know
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and then able to you know what we really try
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: to do with the greens and everything at winter park
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: is if if we cut a little bit in front
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: and then we fill It's going to have more, it's
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: a mimic that more movement and more elevation change, and
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: then trying to get some of the teas up in
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: some of the different areas. So really we, we used
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: all the soil and everything we possibly could from, from
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: the site to, to create those contours and greens and,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and everything. So, yeah.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: The soils are, are obviously extremely important. I think if you,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: if you look at projects like this that have a
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: lower price tag than one would expect. A common thread
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: tends to be, oh, we had good soils, you know?
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: And so, so how important is, is, is that factor overall?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: What does that, what does that kind of sandy soil
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: give you?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, that would have been probably on that job
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: at that time. That would have been like at least
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: 200 and, oh, it'd be more time. So you add on,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: we'd probably need another, it would have doubled the project,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I guess, at that time on, you know, so we'd
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: need about another $ 1. 2 million with timing and You know, soil,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: you know, risks of being shut down because of rain
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: and those type of things there. So soil is... everything
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: when you're looking at a site like that. And then,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: you know, but also if we had, if it wasn't
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: very good sand and we had to figure out how
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: to drain the place, we have the roads sitting there
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: and then we're basically trying to build this thing and
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: then there's no relief. So we'd have to, you know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: bore pipes miles away to try to get, you know,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: relief and drainage and And getting into like, you know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: basically water, you know, water management type issues.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: So the drainage system would have had to be way
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: more complex. Way more complex.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It wouldn't allow us to get, because every one
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: of those lows that we put out there would need
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: to be connected to another pipe or a main line
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: or things like that. And what we have is a
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: scattered amount of sumps that are through the whole site.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: That allowed us to get that clean sand again that's
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: down low and flip it up and use that for shaping.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, and then knowing that you're not,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: you know, you get an inch of rain, you can
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: just work through it. You're not creating mud. You're not
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: creating a mess. And that's, you know, that's your thing.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: That's why a project like that could happen in the
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: time it could happen because you're not worried about, you know,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: a quarter inch of rain shutting you down for like
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: three days.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: We've given short shrift so far, I think to the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: greens that you and Riley, and you've mentioned your shaper, Blake,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: that would be like Conan who has worked on a
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: number of projects with, with you and Riley for other architects,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: as well as recently done some projects of, of his
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: own with Brian Schneider. So you, your team created, entirely
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: new greens. These were redesigned green complexes. What was your
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: kind of guiding principle there when you were creating these
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: new green complexes? What style were you going after? What
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: were you trying to accomplish when you rebuilt one of
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: these greens?
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, again, I we didn't have any, I mean, really,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: we didn't have anything to really go off of. I mean, honestly,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: everything was flat.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, right. I mean, that's kind of the interesting
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: thing for me is that, you know, in working for
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: core and Crenshaw, you're probably accustomed to always looking at
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: the site first and being like, I'm taking inspiration from that.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And that's, that is my justification for, for building these things.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you had, you had very little to base
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: your ideas on.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, sometimes that's where it's fun,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: you know, when you can get, you know, you're not
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: worried about, you know, there's different sites. They're like, sometimes
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: you're at a site where you're like, man, I got
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: to get in here and build this green and not
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: destroy these contours. I need to strip the material off
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: of here. And I'm very nervous about working in this.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And then you have the ability there. We're like, look,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I can just be creative. Different people would set things
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: up over time. You know, Riley might push something up
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and then I might come in and put my layer
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: of creativity. We might let it kind of sit over
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: there for a little while. we would be constantly doing
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: walks around the whole golf course. We'd walk and kind
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: of just get the feel. But I think even going
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: way back from the start is watching the golfers that
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: play the golf course before even getting into the construction
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: and first understanding who you're building it for is the
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: main thing. Because you could go build the wireless things.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: We have the equipment to do anything. We could have
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: figured out a way to import more material. We could
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: have built four tier greens, you know, we could have just,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: you know, first job, you know, use every, everything we've
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: ever wanted to build, you know, out there on that site. And,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: you know, it really comes down to that, you know,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: those core, like bill core type things that we've learned
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: from him. It's like, you know, learn what you got
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: and learn when, when it's done and when it's cooked
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: enough and no one to walk away, you know, and
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: those are those, those balancing things and then understanding who
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: it's for. not trying to bring your ego and all
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: your stuff to there to like impose it onto that, that,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: that job or that community or that golf course and
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: just finding something that fits. And, and I think that's what,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: what we did really well there with the whole team
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: is just figuring out, you know, when to spice things up,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: when to turn the temperature up a little bit, when
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: to mellow things out, when to try something a little
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: bit differently. But then again, the sand, you know, you
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: can push something up, go look at it. You know,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: you can walk away you can come back and.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: And it's not, it's not final when you do something
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: in a way or it doesn't like cost you that
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: much to, to kind of redo it.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's, and it, you know, it's like one
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: of those things that I think even like Brian Schneider
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: said to, you know, I think I've heard it on
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: a few other people. It's like, you know, great architecture
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't exactly have to be expensive. You know, it's just
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: that it's almost just walking out there at different times
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: of the day and looking at how the sun might
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: hit a contour or how the horizon lines tie in.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And the biggest thing for us is like, you know,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: we have all those houses and different things in the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: background and how do you take your eye and focus
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: it mainly on the golf hole without having all the
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: descriptions distractions around it. And, and that's one thing I
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: think we, we took the cues on that. Um, you know,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: just having talented people, you know, I mean, that was,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: that's the biggest thing is like, you know, it was
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: so fun is like basically Riley would kind of be
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: out front setting up different concepts. Then I'd be coming
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: around with the skid loader and kind of fine tune
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: things and kind of get little contours going. And then
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: we'd build the platform of the green knowing that we're
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: going to bring it up 20 inches. And then that's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: kind of, then we pile a bunch of sand on
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: the green and then just have fun again. So it's
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: kind of like everything that you'd have the plan as
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: a concept to kind of give you the guiding kind
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: of road map. But then it always gets better in
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: the field when you're in the dirt and you've got
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: creative people and you're not getting locked in. And that's
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: the way that Riley and I and the people that
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: we have on our team is we're painting a painting,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: but everyone has their opportunity to put their own stroke
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: on that painting. And sometimes that doesn't happen because people
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: are like, no, no. this is my, this is my dirt.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: This is my sand. You know, you guys, you know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: this is, I like this. Don't tell me to change it.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: You know? And that's the people that we work with
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: is like, it always gets better when you're open to
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: other people's opinions and things and ideas. And, and that's
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the same thing that we've, we've, we've, we brought that
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: same stuff from Bill and Ben, you know, all these
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: things that we've learned from Bill and Ben and, are
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the reasons why we were able to execute on a
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: job like that, being our first job and have it
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: be successful is because we had people that, you know,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: didn't try to force us into like a certain way.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: They let us, you know, use our talents and our
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: ways and, and, and trust our, our, our abilities.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I, I'm curious when you're working on one
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: of your own projects, because you've worked in service of
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of Coren Crenshaw projects, but also done your
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: own projects with Riley. Do you ever steal any moves
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: from Bill, like specific things that he does while he's
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: on site? Do you find yourself saying things or doing
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: things that he would say or do?
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think the biggest thing and what's so
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: neat is like, I mean, Bill is just one of
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: the best routers out there they're routed golf course oh
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: yeah and what's so neat for us is like we
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: get to go and the routing's cooked you know and
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: we get to come out there and we're going to
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: build this but we're building it and then you can
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: kind of get the sense and just almost absorb that
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: kind of why we went this way so you just
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: kind of learn those abilities of like you know how
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: he takes you on a journey around the golf course
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: and touches the different points and you feel like you've
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: actually checked the whole box of that property when you're
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: finished because you kind of take you into this area
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: over here where there's some trees, open area, might kind
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: of condense you into some trees here and then release.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: So I think that just a bill, you know, learning
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the routing, learning how to just, and that's what we
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: kind of always brought to it. And then again, like
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I said, knowing what you got, knowing when to walk
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: away and stop and not try to overcook things.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: So. Well, I want to pick up on that idea
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: of knowing when things are cooked, because I would say
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that that is something that really sets Coren Crenshaw apart,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: is that intuition for when something is complex enough and
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: when additional flourishes are not needed. What does that discussion
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: look like during the Winter Park project? When you're dealing
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: with talented shapers in their own right and, and, and
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Riley Johns and Blake Conan, you know, how do you
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: figure out collectively when something is cooked or if you've
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: gone overboard in some respect and need to dial it back? Where,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: you know, take me through that, that conversation.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's always that ability
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: of going out there and being friends and walking around
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: and having that back and forth, you know, and there
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: might be like, oh man, you know, like, like this
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: is a, this is pretty wild. But then with Bill,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: it's just that editing process. He's just the master editor.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: It's just working for Bill and Ben for all these
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: years has been ability to go out and do things
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: and take risks without worrying that they're going to come
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: in and be upset with us or mad at us.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: at us. You know, they, they, they, they love that
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: creative ability of going out there and trying something and
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: there's no wrong answers. You know, we, we go to
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: work every day working for Bill and Ben. There's just
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: no fear. You know, you're not, you're looking forward to
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: them coming on the site, you know, and some places
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: you're at, you're like, Oh man, the boss is going
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: to be in town or, we're trying to get a
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: bunch of stuff done, cleaned up or things like that,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: because you might be upset because of something, but it's
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: like Bill and Ben come in and it's like, they're
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: just excited. They're like, wow, I, I never thought of this.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: That's really cool. Go with it, you know, type thing.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: So I think like a lot of those freedoms that
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: they give us to be creative, go outside of the
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: box without being like locked into one set of plans
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: are the same things that Riley and I strive for
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: when we're working with a team. is like have people
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: come in, have them put their ideas, get the input,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: step back, you know, and everyone takes pride. They have
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: their ego. They have their pride. They might step back
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: and be like, man, I really think I did really
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: good here. But then it's like, then you take a
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: little like step back and you're like, well, no, now
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: I see what you're saying. Like this is, this could be,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: you know, if we soften this or we bump this
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: up or we do different things here, there's a chance
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: to do some, you know, to come out with something
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: really neat that fits. So I think it's just going
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: out there. I think it's taking that time to stop
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and walk at different times of the day with the
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: team and just kind of have that like little bit
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: of that, you know, communication, checking in and not trying
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: to get so, you know, just focused, hyper-focused and just
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: right down one avenue. you know, if, if, if the
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: city was putting stress on us, you know, yeah, you
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: gotta get this done. We gotta, you know, all this
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: type of stuff and then you get nervous and then
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: you're making moves. But when you have that ability to
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: have the people there to, to do what they do
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: the best, you're just going to come out with a
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: product like, you know, winter park that, you know, we're very,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: we're very proud of. I mean, just going back and
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: every day I'm out there walking around, I'm like, wow,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: this is, I can't believe we pulled this off like
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: 10 years ago. So, Yeah. Right.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So now getting to the part of the story where
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: construction is wrapped up and the golf course is looking finished.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: At what point did you have a sense that this
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: was going to be a hit? Because what I remember,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: you know, back in 2016 is that, I mean, Golf
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Channel helped with this. The fact that this was sort
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: of the home course of some high profile TV people
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: certainly helped, but But I remember there being a lot
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: of excitement, you know, not just from the Golf Channel people,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: but generally in the golf architecture community, the golf community. Oh,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: this is really good. At what point did you get
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: that sense that you had, you know, a successful project
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: on your hands?
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I would say I kind of had a moment.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of getting chills because I was like, I mean,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: it was standing up on the back of number two green.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: It might be the highest point in like Winter Park.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know because we built that up so high
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: to kind of block where the pump station is. But
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: just standing there at that height and kind of looking
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: and kind of seeing down hole three and seeing hole
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: two green and then eight and then looking back on
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: five and six, you kind of have this point where
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: you could just kind of take a moment and look
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: around and see what we created there. and i think
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: that was probably the moment when i was like man
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: and like two green kind of came together and we're
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: like eights coming together yeah and that was kind of
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: the moment like man we got we got something here
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: and then it was like we made that final stretch
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: down to down to nine and um and you know
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: part of the other story that most people maybe don't
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: know or maybe they i mean some of it's been
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: told but you know, we, we could have finished, we were,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: we were ahead of schedule. We were, you know, under budget.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: We could have, you know, taken that and, you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: sent the equipment over and, you know, put that extra
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: money in our pocket. But we said, look, you have this,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it was a long croquet type
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: field that like no one was playing. No one was
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: using that was right there by Casa Feliz and 9T.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And I said, no, no one's really using this. I said,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: can we have this piece of property? We have money
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: in the budget. We have the money. We have leftover irrigation.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Can we build a community and putting course here? You know,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and it was like a little bit of like, I
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: don't know, him and Han are like, what are the
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: guys from the croquet thing are going to say? Are
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: we going to have a protest from people from the
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: croquet group? But they, they, they pulled the trigger and
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: said yes. And, and so we put those extra funds
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and the extra days we had the equipment to build
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: that putting course here. free of the community. Anyone can
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: walk up and, you know, that's, I think, you know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: that's a great avenue for people. You know, I see
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: people out there, they're either on their phones or just
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: taking a moment from, from a busy day to, to
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: roll a couple of putts on that, on that putting green.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So I think that was a big, you know, kudos
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: to the city to, to make that last minute shift
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: because sometimes things like that don't happen, but that was a,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: you know, that was a great, you know, cap to
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: cap to the project.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: All right, let's take a break real quick here to
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: talk about Friday Golf Club, F-E-G-C. This is Friday Golf's membership.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: And the most important thing for you to know about
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Friday Golf Club is that it's just a great community
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: of avid golfers. That's really what it is at its foundation. Now,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: there's all sorts of other stuff that comes with your
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Friday Golf Club. membership. You get lots of good deals
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: in our pro shop. You get access to the Friday
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: golf club app, which is tremendous. You know, big, big
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: kudos to my colleague Bo for, for basically, you know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: summoning this thing out of nothing, you know, in this app,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: you can review golf courses, give them a ratings like,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: like we have in our course reviews. And by the way,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: our course reviews, the full profiles that we do are
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: available only to Friday golf club members. I do a
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: regular course newsletter and column called Design Notebook, which gets
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: into all the latest golf architecture news and has Q &
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: As with architects. That is only for Friday Golf Club members.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: So there's lots of stuff that you get with your membership,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: but I think the main thing is this community and
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: this ability to have fun with other people who are
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: as obsessed with this game as you are. And of course,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: it starts online, but then it goes to in-person events
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: and trips and all sorts of things like that. It's
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: a really exciting club to be a part of. So
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: go check it out at thefriday.com slash membership. We would
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: love to have you join. looking at the project from,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: from the, uh, you know, airplane view, what are you
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: think the, the most portable lessons from the project, the
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: ones that, you know, other cities, if they, if they
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: look at this project, you can strip away, you know,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: maybe most of the stuff that, that is really particular to,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: to winter park, because there were some particular advantages here.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the soil. The mayor who seemed to
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: really quickly get it. I've heard Steve Leary speak. He's
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: a smart guy. He knows golf. That's a big advantage
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: in a mayor. Not every city has a mayor like that.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Stripping away some of those specificities, what do you think
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: are the big lessons that other cities with old golf
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: courses could take away from this?
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's finding those community members that have that
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: experience to do advisory board. I think that's I think
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: that's a key. You need to have that mission statement.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: You got to have that guiding light at the very beginning. Because,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, the city will be like, you know,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: they'll be looking at their course and they'll be like, well,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: we have this irrigation lake, let's throw some money at this.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: And then it's like, oh, someone's complaining that this tea's
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: not great or this green, let's reseed, you know, reseed, re-sod.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: You know, they can keep on like just throwing money
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: at something. But if you don't have that like guiding
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: kind of master plan or that vision or that mission
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: statement from the very end, From the very beginning, you're
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: just chasing your tail the whole time. And I think
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: it's really like finding that advisory board, getting people outside
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: the city that are in the industry and trusting them
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: to give you that kind of guiding light mission statement
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: and then go out and get a master plan. Because,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the master plan doesn't mean that you have
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: to do that whole plan all at once. You can,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: you know, like, okay, maybe there's some tree removals. Or, hey,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: we have some money for this. Maybe we do this
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: and this isn't going to affect if we've got to
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: put an irrigation system in. And I think it's those
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: type of things. Some people will be like, oh, the
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: irrigation system. We just need to put a whole new
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: irrigation system in. Well, it's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Let's not lock in this design. If we're spending the
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: money and we're tearing up the golf course, this is
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: an opportunity to either go to the private sector, try
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: to figure out a way to you know, get more
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: out of the golf course before you're just locking it
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: in with the irrigation system. I mean, that's what we
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: find in some places where you go to there like, oh, well,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: we just put a new irrigation system in, but we
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: want to redo the golf course. And you're like, ah, no,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: you know, that's.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Because that limits you, right?
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: It limits. Yeah.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Reconceive the golf course, then figure out what the irrigation
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: system needs to do to serve that, right?
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's, I think it's starting out with the
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: advisory board, working through that, getting the master plan. Again,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be the master plan that has
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: to happen all at once. You know, people get scared
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: when they're like, oh, you know, oh no, here we go.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: there's no way we can do this. And then they just,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: all the conversations just shut down. So, you know, I,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's, you know, talking to the private sector
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: and how the private sector and the private, the public
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: and private can work together, you know, like the park
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: and these things like that, where you can get the
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: investment and have that in there and, and, you know,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: and how, how they can work together, you know, because
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: you see these guys that, you know, there might be
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: people that are, you know, have some wealth and they
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: would like to see the wealth be used in the
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: community versus, you you know, having that tax write off
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: where it goes somewhere else into another, you know, state
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: or somewhere else, you know? So I think it's like
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: bringing that investment and then people seeing that are from
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: that community, their money working for them is, is kind
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: of the thing for me. So it's like trusting the, the,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the private sector to come in and is,
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: it's the way, you know, and then, you know, it's,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: when it goes back to it, $ 1. 2 million nowadays is,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: that's just the irrigation system for a nine hole golf course.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: And that's where it's unfortunate that, you know, I mean,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: with some of the stuff with COVID and all that
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: type of stuff, it drove up prices, you know, HDP pipe,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: the best pipe that you can basically use for irrigation
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: system that lasts forever is an oil based product, you know?
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: So the, all those things and copper and, and, and materials,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: the prices have just skyrocketed. So that's where, where, you
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: got to find where you can do the best with
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: your resources and money and, and things like that. And
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: you gotta, you know, it's a scary thing for cities
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: to go to because they get that price right there,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: that sticker shock. And they're like, there's no, there's no
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: way we're going to do this. So let's just fix
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: the little thing over here. Let's do this to, you know,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: do a shiny thing over here for a couple of
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: while where someone can see this and then not get
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: distracted by all the greens are dying.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: A lot, a lot of projects get held up right
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: at the, drainage and irrigation stage where, where people see
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: what that would be. And like either, Oh, I can't
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: do that. Or, Oh, I'm a private club. And if
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: we're going to do this, we might as well do
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: a $ 40 million renovation. It's like, we're going to be
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: spending this money anyway. So I got to rebuild the
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: entire golf course.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: And then it's keeping up with the Joneses, you know,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: the next guy who next door does his golf course
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: and then, Oh, boom. Now, now you're, you know, now
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you're putting in all this other stuff just because the
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: guy next door to keep up. So it's, yeah, it's, it's,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: it's a challenge for the city. And I understand, you know, it's,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: it's a very difficult thing to, to trust people outside of,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: you know, what, you know, you're, you're telling me these
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: guys are going to come in and do this to
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: our course or do this or, and that's where I
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: think it's just, you know, finding that trust and, and, and, and,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: you know, and making it happen. I mean, you know,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: we thought, you know, going into this project. And, you know, we,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: we were never, never in our wildest dreams thought that
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: winter park would be like pumping out like 50,000 rounds
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: and how successful it was. I mean, we, our goal
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: was just to build something cool for the community and
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: never in our wildest dreams thought it would become what
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: it has, you know, for different people. I mean, I, I,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: I was at, at La Hinch for the Walker cup and,
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I'd say I'm from winter park and they'd
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: be like, Oh, you know, the nine hole golf course,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, get to tell them that we
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: were part of that. But I mean, if you want
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: to put your, you know, your budget for advertising and
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: stuff like that for winter park, I mean, your golf
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: courses actually got more kind of draw of different people and, and,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: and more of a calling card out there than you
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: ever would have thought when, you know, now when you
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: say winter park, a lot of times people are like, Oh,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: the golf course, you know, and that's, you know, a neat,
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: a neat thing.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, actually a profit center, uh, for, for the city,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: which is, uh, yeah. Something that is, uh, more rare
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: than it should be, but that's something that can happen
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: if you, if you come up with a good enough product, right?
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then, you know, they paid for all that renovation, everything,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, they've, they were losing over $ 250, 000
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: or more each year. And, you know, sometimes the city's
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: fine with, I mean, certain things are fine with that.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, or we just need to like cover our basis,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: you know, or just make enough to, to just keep
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: operations going. And, and now winter park is, you know,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: making 300,000 or more, you know, each year it just
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: keeps on trending higher and higher. And, um, you know, and,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: and then they're putting the investment back into the golf
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: course now on some of the things that, you know,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: like we just, you know, we'll talk about over here shortly, but, um,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: you know, the bunkers and, and, and the greens and,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: and they built a maintenance facility. So, um, you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: getting that investment back in the golf course, cause you're
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: putting all that wear and tear and you gotta, you
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: gotta dump it back into it.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: So Yeah. Well, picking up on that thread, I teased
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: this at the beginning, but there has been some action
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: at Winter Park recently. You've been back there. Riley has
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: been back there. What happened?
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the first plan was always to do capillary bunkers
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: and redo all the bunkers as much as we could.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: We had to do it in two phases. So that
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: was always the plan. We were excited to get back
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: into those bunkers because over years, they kind of morphed
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: into something we like and some we need to do
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: a little bit more work on. And and just knowing that,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: you know, again, at that time, we didn't have the
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: money to go dump that extra money and all that
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: every bunker to put capler in it. Now we have
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: the chance to, to, to, to, to, to put that
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: infrastructure in there to help the city. And, you know,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: it's been paying dividends already. I mean, it's been, you know,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: it used to be when we get a big rain
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: and those guys would be out there trying to shovel
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: the sand back up, but now we're not, they're not
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: having to work on any of that. So, you know,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: that was always the plan, but you know, there was, uh,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: there's an accident that happened. I mean, I'm sure a
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: lot of people probably seen it and things like that. And,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and it, and, and, and that accident led
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: to the opportunity to us to make something better out
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: of it. You know, I mean, we were able to
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: upgrade the greens at winter park, the, the greens, there
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: was an accident on the greens and, you know, when,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: when accidents happen, you have two avenues, you have two
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: paths that you can take, you know, And maybe that
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: path wasn't the proper path. And it led to that,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: you know, to different changes that the city's made and
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: it's all positive now. But man, I mean, you know,
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: seeing the greens and I was like, you know, I
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: was kind of like, oh man, what are we going
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: to do? And I said, the only thing I said
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: to him, I said, I'm not upset. I said, this
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: is opportunity to do something that we could do. I said,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: we just needs to be done the right way. You know,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: we need to approach this it can't be a bandaid.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: It can't be able to just have to let it
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: grow in, or maybe we plug some of the spots
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: and we get it back. I'm like, look, this is,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: you know, you have some thatch and stuff, organics that
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: are built up over the years, you know, here's your
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: opportunity to till that, all that material that you, you, you,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: you paid for and till it into the profile and,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: and create something different. And, and that's what we're able
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: to do. We, you know, Riley, you know, said, he's like,
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: you know, we're out there working on the greens at
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the very beginning. He's like, man, these things are so good.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Like we, we nailed it, you know, just kind of that,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: like sitting back and just kind of being really excited,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: but then walking off of them at the very end
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: and seeing what we were able to create at the
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: second time of going around them. I like, here we go.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Like we got some new pin placements on hole number
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: one that are tucked behind the bunker on the right.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: We got a new pin placement on two that's back
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: left that, We always had planned, but anyone that's ever
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: done a green expansion knows how difficult it is as
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: you're trying to meet two grades. You're trying to fit
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: everything in perfectly. You're trying to lay that piece of sod.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: You're trying to catch the same slope so you don't
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: have those seams. It's a tedious thing, but then sometimes
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: when you're able to just strip everything back and reshape, refloat,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: and work off of what we had there from the
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: first go-around, It was a really fun process, and the
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: feedback we're getting is just people are just loving it.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: They got new greens, new kind of places they can
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: run the ball up and think around those greens. So, yeah.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: What was the scope of the work? So you mentioned bunkers,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: putting some new drainage in the bunkers, and then, I guess,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: rebuilding the greens. A lot of the grass died, so
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: the greens needed to be kind of regenerated. And so
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: you were able to get in there and do some shaping.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: Was that basically the extent of it, or were.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: There some other things? Well, you know... Basically, what we
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: were able to do was we first sprayed out the
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: rest of the area that we wanted to get even
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: expansions out to. So we finished off nuking the greens.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: And then we went back with a sod cutter. Luckily,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: I had a team that was at the ranch there
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: in Florida working out there that are the same team
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: that's out here in Montana with us. So having those
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: guys come over, they sod cut all the greens. We
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: bunded up all that thatch and that material there. then
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: with like i said that organic layer over the years
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: it kind of built up and when we first built
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: those greens again there's no drainage. So basically we capped
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: it with 20 inches of clean USGA spec sand. So
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: we're not worried about, we don't have any liners to
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: get into. We don't have any drainage to get into.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: So basically we have that organic layer and then I
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: put a tiller with a skid loader, reverse tilled that
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: multiple times. All that organic stuff is in that green more,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: you know, just holding more moisture and nutrients in those grains.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: And then basically we, you know, floated them out and
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: then worked on new pin locations and then, you know,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: did the bunker work and then re-sprigged them and sodded
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: around them. So it was, it was a lot of
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: work in a short amount of time, but again, it's
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: just how everything worked. The city was able to pull
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: the trigger at the right time. I mean, if it
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: was if we were going into winter, you know, we
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: would have had to probably sod all those greens cause the,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: the temperatures wouldn't be there for us to be able
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: to re sprig everything back. Um, so it was kind
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: of the right time. We had the right people. Everyone
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: showed up, you know, it was, it was Riley and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: I out there still edging bunkers and raking and just,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: you know, Riley's from Canada. So he was just the humidity.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, we were just out there just drenched and,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: and trying to work through that heat and, uh, get,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: get done there so we can get out to Montana
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: and then get into the cool temperatures. But it was,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. It was, it was
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: good getting back there. Um, and it's just, uh, it's
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: always good to, you know, when you can take a, uh,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: you know, a challenging thing or, or, or, you know,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: something that can be looked like as a big deal
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: and turn it into a positive. And I think that's
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: what the city did and, and, and allowing us to
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: do what we did. We were able to, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: create something even better than we ever thought we could
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: out there. So, course is back open right yeah it
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: is yep yep so they're um they're getting ready to
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: have their amateur tournament they had to cancel that because
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: that happens in may and now they're going to have
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: that this next week so i was out there it
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: was it was a nice opportunity um i meet the
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: new superintendent so now they've the city's hired a management
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: company to come in so they have a talented guy
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: ryan that's going to be the superintendent and walking and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: ed bachelor was out there so kind of going back
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to a little bit and i'm going to kind of
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: jump back but you know, Ed Batcher was there. Ed
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Batcher was doing such a good job at the night
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: home municipal golf course that, or a country club of Orlando,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: the private club in Orlando, you know, one of the
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: top clubs driving by and being like, well, why are
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: our green? You know, why is it, you know, why
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: are their greens better? You know, why is winter better? Yeah.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: So what's going on here? Yeah. So, so I get
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: a call, you know, Ed calls me up. He's like, man, I,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what to do here. And, and,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I said, they called me up. They want
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: me to come over to interview. You know, I have
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: some friends that are members over there. So I had
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: them write a letter too. I said, I said, Ed,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: this is a huge compliment to what you've done here.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: It's a, it's a, it's a huge thing. I mean,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: this is like the, the private, the private club coming
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: and poaching the municipal nine hole golf course are, you know,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, a superintendent to go to the big leagues
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: type thing. And it, and he's just been over there
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: knocking it out of the park. Everyone loves them. Um,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: you know, Ed, Ed, Ed is great. I mean, like,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, the friendships that we built on that, Ed
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Batchelor and his wife were just here this last week
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: out here in Montana, you know, spent a week with us,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: Riley and I on their holiday out here in Montana.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, that's, that's the best part about
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: this industry. You're not just building golf, but you build
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: these friendships as you're, as you're building these courses. And,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: but to have Ed be the person, you know, to
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: get hired at, at the, at the big leagues, you know,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: golf course, but him being able to walk there with him,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: with the new superintendent and then seeing where the course
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: is right now. And then seeing as this management company
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: comes over now that they have a three-year contract and
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: the moves that they can make now, once they know
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: they have that contract and the superintendent Ryan there, he's already,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: you know, he he's already got it, you know, and he's,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: he's excited. He loves the green. He loves the concept.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: He likes the two cuts of height. I can tell
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: he's going to take this thing to the next level. And,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: you know, having the new maintenance facility there, they have
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: their new reel grinders. I mean, before the city was
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: working out of the same kind of building that the
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: cemetery was working out of. So they had like very limited,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: all their equipment's packed in there. Now they have their
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: own reel grinders before they were picking it up on
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: a trailer, taking it to the city compound. you know,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: grinding the reels there, then bringing it back. So now
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: they have a full-time, um, mechanic there. And it's just, I,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: we can already see the cuts of heights. When you,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: when you see when a good reel is sharpened, it
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: helps with the weeds and everything like that. And you
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: get that quality cut and I'm, I'm excited. It was,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: it was a really good time for Ed and I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: both to be like, look at each other and at
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: the very end and being like, okay, we're back on track.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: Things are going the right direction. Um, and, and this excitement, um,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: to when you have the right people in the right place. Um, yeah, it's, it's,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: it's going to be, it's going to be good for
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: when people get out there where they might've seen different
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: challenging times at winter park, but now it's, it's pushing
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: into the, it's, it's the trajectory is going in the
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: right direction.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: So, so I want to put this, uh, the, this
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: renovation and in a broader context here. Um, yeah, I remember, uh,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: 10 years ago, I personally, and I think a lot
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: of people, had a sense of optimism that we'd see
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: a thousand winter parks across the nation. The logic being
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: that there are plenty of cities with old golf courses
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: that can put together about a million dollars. Hire a
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: design-build crew, do something cool. Now, there definitely have been
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: some cool municipal golf projects since then. I don't want to,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: to ignore those most recently at Buffalo dunes and garden
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: city of Kansas, which, uh, Zach Vardy, who has worked
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: a lot for a corn Crenshaw had a key role
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: in clay pain, the superintendent there, uh, Todd Clark, one
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: of the other architects involved in that they did. I mean,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: they did an incredible job on an 18 hole golf
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: course with a very, very low budget. So it's not
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: like this stuff hasn't been happening, but for me at least, uh,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe not as many of these projects have
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: happened as I would have hoped. We addressed this a
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: little bit before. You know, there's the cost issue. Since COVID,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: everything has gotten more expensive. That has affected golf course
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: construction in a big way. So is this just a
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: story about costs? Or is there something else at play
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: that makes it so hard to replicate Winter Park?
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a million-dollar question. It's always... I mean, we
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: were always hoping that, I mean, as, like I said,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: once Winter Park started getting its legs and kind of
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: like the trajectory of what it did and I'm like, okay, well,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: here we go. Like this is an opportunity for, you know,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: other people to break into the industry, to have their, their,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: their chance to, you know, use their creativity on a course.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: And maybe that opens up the avenue. I mean, that's,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: that's what I was kind of thing is like, if
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: it can raise the bar for, for everyone in the
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: industry and give more opportunities for, you know, the opportunity
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: that we had with the city, that was kind of
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: one of those things. I was like, this is hopefully
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: this opens the door, you know, and, and, you know,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: I think it just takes time. I mean, these things,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: you know, they, you know, they get some legs and
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: they get a run and then, you know, you got
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: to get another one to kind of jump in there,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: you know, and get the excitement back up there, you know,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: what Zach Vardy and everything they've done out there, you know, that's,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: those are the type of things where people, now are
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: going to go out of their way to go to
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: a place that they would just probably normally pass by
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: because they're interested in the architecture. I think what you
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: guys have done with the fried egg is open people's
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: eyes to like the gyms and the opportunities and things
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: like that. That probably puts a little bit more pressure
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: on a city like, man, you guys have like, you
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: guys get realized what you have here, like with a
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: little bit of TLC and the right people. you can,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: you can, you can be another winter park, you know?
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: And that's one thing that I always kind of said
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: is like, you know, there's a, there's thousands of winter parks,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: like scattered throughout all these communities and the smallest town
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: that you might drive through Nebraska has a golf course
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: sitting there that's, that's a gym. And it's just, I
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: think it's just finding that investment. You know, I think it's, uh,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I, I think it's a part of the,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: a way of getting the private and the public, you know,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: that partnership of how that money can be either like
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: a fund or something that kind of, that kind of
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: buffers that. Cause I think that's the biggest thing is like,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: and then knowing how to have some type of management
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: that they understand that you're not coming in to take
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: the keys away from the city. The city still has
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: some control, but then the person that's coming in and
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: putting the money still has, a way of making their
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: investment back, you know what I mean? And then you, well,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: then you look at some areas where you're like, you know,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: I think the thing when I was working out at
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: Ozark National where Johnny Morris was like, look, the reason
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: I'm putting the money in building these golf courses is
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: because I want this money to stay in my community.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: And I want the workers that are here and I
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: want to create the jobs here, you know? So it's like,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: it's also breaking into making people understand that like, you know,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: if you want to see your money work, you know,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: here's this golf course, you know, if you're interested in golf,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: you know, again, not everyone in the city is interested
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: in golf, you know, but I think they'd like to
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: have something that was like not losing money. And that
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: could be something that kind of brings people into the
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: community to show off, you know, your characters. So, your character.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: So I, you know, I don't know what the right answer,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: cause it's like, sometimes I don't try to get too
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: much in the whole financial game of like how you
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: structure these things. It's like, I try to stay.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: In my lane.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I know how to design build and, and
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: that just enough to, you know, be dangerous when it
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: comes to the agronomy side of things or, you know,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: or when it comes to, you know, some of like
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: trying to put the funding that to me makes sense,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: but you know, I'm not the one putting the investment
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: out there. So I think it's, I think it's something
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: like that. I don't know if there's a group or,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: you know, we, I don't know. I don't know what
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: the answer is. Yeah.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: The public private partnership that you're talking about is, is,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: is a big commonality between a lot of different successful
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: municipal golf projects. Uh, there's something really cool going on
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: right now in Nashville with, uh, Bruce Heppner working as,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: as an architect at some of these municipal facilities. And
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: that's all really powered by a robust public partner, a
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: public private partnership. Um, And it's a big city. So
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: that's another, you know, if it can work in a
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: big city, then that's another bit of encouragement. But after
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: all of this, looking back on Winter Park, you know,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: at the time there was almost a feeling that, oh,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: this seems so easy. You know, this turned out so
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: well and it happened so quickly and it was so
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: relatively inexpensive. But The reality is it was not easy.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: You guys did something that was very hard, that had
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: a very high bar of difficulty that not many other
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: cities and architecture teams and individual projects have been able
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: to clear. Now, if you look at Garden City and
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: Winter Park, Buffalo Dunes and Winter Park, there are some
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: interesting similarities there might not at first seem like garden
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: city is very similar to winter park, but you know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: these are kind of not small towns, but, but definitely
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: not big cities. And, and there's a sense of, uh, of,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: of friendship and, and casual, uh, casual relationship between the
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: leaders of, of the city and the public, you know,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: going to garden city, uh, we just met the city
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: manager at a taco place and talked with him for
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: a while. And he, he was pretty cool dude who'd like,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: like to play golf and as, okay, well, this is
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: different from coming to the city where I live, Portland
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: and trying to get at the mayor and, and like
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: work out a municipal golf project and city council and
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: all that. And so the size of the city seems
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: to matter, but, uh, you know, there are a lot
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: of unique features of, of the winter park project from the,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: the soil to just the, the competence of everybody involved,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: you know, hiring, hiring the right team and working with
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: the right people in, in city hall. And, you know, that,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: that alchemy is not easy to just repeat. And, and,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: and time has sort of proven that.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, yeah, again, it does. It starts with
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: that leadership. You know, if it's the governor, if it's
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: the mayor, if it's a city council, if it's someone,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: the commissioner, it starts with that leadership. And, you know,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing. It's like you get a city,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: you know, you get something good there. And then it's like, then,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: you know, well, that mayor is not going to stay
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: the mayor there forever. So now you're like got another
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: administration in and they might not be pro golf or
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: they might not be this pro investment. They might have
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: other agendas that they want to do. So it's like,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: that's where you kind of go through these like ebbs
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: and flows on a thing. So, you know, I mean,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: it's like when you build a golf course, I think
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: that's when you, you know, also even going way back
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: to it, it's like, you got to build a golf
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: course that can be maintained for, for the right price too.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: You know, we could go out and build something wild
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: and then that maintenance team is, spending, you know, most
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: of his time just trying to keep up with something
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: that's just unmanageable. So I think that kind of going
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: back into understanding what you're trying to build and what
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: the funds they have to do what they can do is,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: is the biggest thing. So I, you know, I mean,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: I think it just goes down to the leadership, the trust.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's, you know, over time, I think there's
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: just going to be more projects, hopefully like this, that,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: you know, and as, as now the kind of re
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: maybe the 10-year anniversary, like, look, this course, where are
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: we at now? Where we started? Here's a pretty good
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: case study of where it started and where it's gone.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: This isn't just one year out, two years out. If
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: you can't take this and put it into an AI
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: formula right now to generate where, where, where the trajectory
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: of where a golf course could be if you invest
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: in it and you get the right people and everything
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: like that. So I think, I think it will happen.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I trust, I, you know, I, I think
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: there's the right people. I think, you know, I think I,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: you know, I had a great conversation and in, in
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: a pub in Ireland with someone high up with the USGA. And,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: you know, it was funny cause he's like pointed at
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: Riley and pointed at, I know you guys and I
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: like never met the guy before. And just, I knew
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: that he had actually been following the project through all
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: these years. And he's just like, look, this winter party,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: I tell him, I give, we're talking about growing the
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: game of golf. Like these are the places that we need.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: We need the, the private, you know, private and the
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: public type of thing. So, I mean, I think it's like,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: as the USGA and those types of things, you get
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: these partners, you get the PGA a little bit more involved. Look,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, these are the courses that start building the game.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: These are the avenues where people can have the opportunity
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: to come in and hit their first shot. You know, it's,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: it's hard to go join the, the, the, if you're
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: just coming off the street, you're not going to go
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: join the private club, you know, winter park is walk
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: after that first tee and here's the handshake to golf,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And then as you learn,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: you know, you maybe want to join the private club or,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: or if you want to go travel and see more golf,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's where we need to focus more into
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: these municipal golf courses where we can open the game
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: and open that avenue and have that stress-free and, and, and,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: and not have that barrier is where, where I think
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: when people recognize that, I think it's a very easy
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: way of investing in the, in the thing, you know,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it was like, I don't know,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: it was a two years ago, they had the event,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: a superintendent's thing and they, they had a thing where
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: they had Steve Leary. They had like, uh, John Ashworth,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Janelle and everyone talking about, you know, municipal golf course.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: And they had us in the basement of the thing
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: and everything above is like the whole industry of the golf,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: like clubs, everything you can think of. And we're down
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: in the basement kind of talking about, these are the way,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: this is the way that we can, you know, enter
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: in the game and, and make this a lifelong, um,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: you know, journey through, through the game of golf. And,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: And Winter Park does it, and I think it has
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: more investment in that. I mean, you know, the city
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: has bought another golf course, WP18 Winter Pines. You know,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: they're kind of in that same thing right now. They're
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: in that fine thing of, like, what direction are we
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: going to go? And I think hopefully we kind of
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: get things and help and get them on track to
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: do something really special there because it could be another
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: Winter Park 2.0. Yeah.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: Is that going to be a Reb and John's project?
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: Has that decision been made?
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean, it's still, yeah. Yeah. There's, I mean, yeah,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: it's still, yeah, still up in there, but you know, just,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: you know, there's other people in the local community that
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: are seeing again, like, look, we can be better. And
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: there's opportunities of, uh, what, what they could do with
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: it and, you know, what direction. And, but again, it's
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: a big, it's a big number. It's a big thing
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: to take off. And, you know, the city, you know,
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: has different, different things that it wants to fund. And,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I'm from Florida, live in Florida,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: I live in winter park. We're talking about getting rid
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: of some property taxes. I mean, that's a great for
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: owning a home, not for a great for cities wanting to,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: you know, put extra money in Florida. You know, I mean,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: there's other avenues of getting that money, but you gotta
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: be more how you're going to use those funds. But,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: you know, that's another thing. Those are the challenges that
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: they face. You know, they've, they got a big price
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: number looking at them if they wanted to do, you know,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: the 18 and there's 18 holes, you know, the, the
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: soils are different. There's different challenges when it comes to
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: irrigation water and things like that there, but it could
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: definitely be another, another, uh, winter park 2.0. And now
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: the winter parks got two, two examples of where, um,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: municipal golf is, is winning.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: So, well, hopefully that, hopefully that turns out well. Um,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: Keith Reb, thank you for coming on the podcast. It
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: was really fun talking to you.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Great. Yeah. It was good. Good chatting about winter park,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: looking back and excited for the future. So thank you.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: This episode of designing golf was produced by Will Balsam.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Will.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying this podcast, then leave a rating
• 1:18:56
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• 1:18:59
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• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: a future show. Give me a topic that you'd like
• 1:19:06
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• 1:19:09
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• 1:19:12
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• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: for listening. And we'll be back again soon with another episode.