Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Inside the Business of Music Publishing [Episode 209]

Transcript

Inside the Business of Music Publishing [Episode 209] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Speaker 1: We're totally booked rock and Roll.
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Speaker 2: I mean I'll leave you you're reading Little Hans says
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Speaker 2: it's time to rock and roll.
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Speaker 1: Are totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the
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Speaker 1: podcast for those about to read and rock. Find the
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Speaker 1: podcast to book down rock dot com. Every episode there
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Speaker 1: in audio and video, also links to your favorite listening platforms,
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Speaker 1: exclusive videos, links to all of the social media sites,
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Speaker 1: and the latest rockbook releases can be found at booked
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Speaker 1: on rock dot com. Our guest is veteran music publisher
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Speaker 1: and industry expert Randall Wixon, who's just released the fifth
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Speaker 1: edition of his book, The Plain and Simple Guide to
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Speaker 1: Music Publishing. Music publishing is one of the most complex
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Speaker 1: parts of the music business, and yet it can be
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Speaker 1: the most lucrative area of income for musicians. Wixon presents
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Speaker 1: a clear, concise approach on how music publishing works today.
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Speaker 1: The book includes a forward by Tom Petty. Among the
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Speaker 1: many who put their trust in wixen with their music catalog,
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Speaker 1: Wickson is one of the most respected names in the
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Speaker 1: music industry. He's the founder of Wickson Music Publishing, Inc.
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Speaker 1: In Los Angeles, with a sister company, wix and Music
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Speaker 1: UK Linded in London. The companies administer the song catalogs
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Speaker 1: of many top artists from the last fifty years, ranging
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Speaker 1: from George Harrison, The Doors, Neil Young and Tom Petty
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Speaker 1: to The Black Keys, Andrew Byrd and Fits in the Tantrums.
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Speaker 1: If you've ever wondered how a song ends up in
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Speaker 1: a movie, a TV show, a video game or a commercial,
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Speaker 1: Wixon can tell you. I get into that and so
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Speaker 1: much more with Randall in this interview, including his thoughts
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Speaker 1: on the recent legal battle between Darryl Hall and John Oates,
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Speaker 1: the famous nineteen eighty four lawsuit where John Fogerty was
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Speaker 1: being sued for stealing a song he wrote himself, the
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Speaker 1: Vanilla Ice Versus Queen legal battle over his use of
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Speaker 1: the song under pressure, and more. This is a fascinating
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Speaker 1: look at the side of the music business few know.
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Speaker 1: Hi Randall, great to meet you, Welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, Nice to meet you too.
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Speaker 1: I want to start with Tom Petty because he writes
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Speaker 1: that forward and honest forward in the book and he
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Speaker 1: obviously thought very highly of you. He talks about how
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Speaker 1: he didn't own the copyrights to his first few records,
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Speaker 1: but if he had known you or had a book
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Speaker 1: like this, you know, things might have been different. Can
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Speaker 1: you talk about how you met Tom and the story
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Speaker 1: of one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars air made
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Speaker 1: my MCA records that led to your working relationship with him?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, jeez, there's a lot there. The early in my career,
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Speaker 2: I ended up working for a business manager named Bernie Goodby.
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Speaker 2: Someone told him that I was good with numbers and
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Speaker 2: could go over royalty statements and look at stuff. So
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Speaker 2: Bernie threw me in a room with I guess at
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Speaker 2: that point was considered a laptop that was about the
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Speaker 2: size of four bowling balls. It was a compact sixty
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Speaker 2: four I think, and you carried it like a suitcase.
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Speaker 2: And he set me in a room with that Tom's
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Speaker 2: royalty statements and Tom's the recording agreement, and said, just
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Speaker 2: go through them, see us see if you can figure
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Speaker 2: out where the numbers came from and whether they look
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Speaker 2: good to you or not. And so I set to it.
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Speaker 2: And the first thing, you know, first statement I looked at,
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Speaker 2: I saw there was a charge for one hundred and
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Speaker 2: twenty five thousand dollars for an advance. So I went
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Speaker 2: over to the general ledger that they had for Tom,
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Speaker 2: and I looked and I said, yep, there's one hundred
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Speaker 2: and twenty five received. All good. I made sure the
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Speaker 2: royalty rates were right, and then I finished that statement,
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Speaker 2: went on to the next one, and the first thing
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Speaker 2: I saw in the next one was one hundred and
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Speaker 2: twenty five thousand dollars advance, and I said, geez, did
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Speaker 2: we get too. I went to the general ledger and
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Speaker 2: no we didn't. So I called MCA and said, hey,
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Speaker 2: it looks like you charged us twice for the same advance,
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Speaker 2: and they said, oh, we're sorry. It was an honest mistake.
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Speaker 2: They messengered over a check. I told Tom about it.
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Speaker 2: It was a hell of a lot of money for
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Speaker 2: him at the time, and he sent over a copy
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Speaker 2: of Dan the Torpedoes signed to me saying count every
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Speaker 2: penny randall, Love Tom.
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Speaker 1: And thus began the relationship with Tom.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah. What inspired you to write the book? Initially?
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Speaker 1: I'm imagining it is stories like that to help these artists,
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Speaker 1: and what led to the fifth edition that just recently
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Speaker 1: came out.
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Speaker 2: Well, what led me to write the book initially was
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Speaker 2: I was invited to go see a parade the Rose
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Speaker 2: Parade at the a publicist's office in Pasadena, and he
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Speaker 2: was saying, you know, I could blow your company up
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Speaker 2: through the world if you know, you wrote a book
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Speaker 2: about music publishing. We could get you to be the
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Speaker 2: one that everybody wants to interview and everybody wants to
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Speaker 2: talk to. And I said, okay, So when do I
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Speaker 2: have to have it done by and he says, oh,
5:25
Speaker 2: a week would do So I had the time off
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Speaker 2: because of the holidays, so I sat down and wrote
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Speaker 2: ten hours a day. He thought it was just a joke,
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Speaker 2: and after a week I said, okay, it's done. Now
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Speaker 2: what I said, well, we got to find a publisher
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Speaker 2: and we did. The fifth edition came about because there's
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Speaker 2: so much that has changed in the last two or
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Speaker 2: three years. I really didn't want to be in the
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Speaker 2: position of doing a fifth edition because it's so much
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Speaker 2: work to to make this many changes and talk about
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Speaker 2: so many new topics. But I sat down and did it,
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Speaker 2: and Jason Riss in my office provided a lot of
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Speaker 2: suggestions on you know, things like the MLC and the
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Speaker 2: CRB hearings and streaming. So he made sure I've got
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Speaker 2: a lot of bad stuff right.
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Speaker 1: Well, streaming is the big one. That's the one that
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Speaker 1: anybody who's a music fan is clearly aware of. I
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Speaker 1: guess you could say the controversy or just the topic
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Speaker 1: itself is interesting. Not a lot of people know about it,
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Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you about that little more specifically,
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Speaker 1: what exactly is music publishing? Why is it so important?
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Speaker 2: Well, music publishing is a bit of a misnomer. It
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Speaker 2: has very little to do with printing sheet music and
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Speaker 2: publishing it in book form. It's more managing intellectual property.
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Speaker 2: You know, if you own an office building, you collect
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Speaker 2: the rent on a regular basis from your tenants. Likewise,
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Speaker 2: if you own songs, people who use the songs have
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Speaker 2: to pay for the use of the songs. And that's
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Speaker 2: what music publishers do. They make sure no one's squatting
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Speaker 2: in the offices, you know, which is you know, the
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Speaker 2: analogy would be an infringement of you know, the song.
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Speaker 2: This morning, we just discovered apparently there's a commercial by
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Speaker 2: a major cell phone company that uses one of our
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Speaker 2: clients copyrighted materials. So, I mean, you know, a music
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Speaker 2: publisher defends it. A music publisher also, will you know,
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Speaker 2: be contacted by legitimate people that are wanting to use
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Speaker 2: the song, negotiate rights paperwork it, collect the money, pay
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Speaker 2: the songwriters. It's not very glamorous, it's very technical, but
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Speaker 2: you know, writers should care about it tremendously because songs
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Speaker 2: live much longer than you know, you're the ten weeks
8:21
Speaker 2: on the charts. You know, one of the songs we
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Speaker 2: control is Santa claus Is Coming to Town. It has
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Speaker 2: a couple more years of copyright left on it, and
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Speaker 2: that song throws off huge amounts of money every holiday
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Speaker 2: season and throughout the year. You know, we have Kasarasara
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Speaker 2: from the Alfred Hitchcock film nineteen fifty six, I think,
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Speaker 2: and you know, these songs have certain songs have a
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Speaker 2: lifetime that well exceeds you know, the time that they
9:00
Speaker 2: we're you know, on the hip parade, so to speak.
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Speaker 2: And you know, if they're well managed, they can keep
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Speaker 2: you alive forever if you're a writer.
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Speaker 1: So does somebody right now currently own the rights to
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Speaker 1: Santa claus Is Coming to Town and then somebody else
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Speaker 1: is going to try to outbid somebody else to get it.
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Speaker 1: How does that all work?
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Speaker 2: Well, our clients are the Coots family. J Fred Kootz,
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Speaker 2: who is one of the writers of the song, and
9:29
Speaker 2: you know, the heirs of Fred Kootz own it and
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Speaker 2: they'll own it until it goes into the public domain.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the other thing. The public domain is interesting too.
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Speaker 1: And then there are traditional songs. What is a traditional song?
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Speaker 1: That's when we don't know who wrote it.
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Speaker 2: A traditional song is one that has gone into the
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Speaker 2: public domain. Maybe the writer is known, maybe the writer
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Speaker 2: is not known, but what ends up happening is, you know,
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Speaker 2: no one owns the copyright to it per se. However,
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Speaker 2: there can be traditional songs that have new material and
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Speaker 2: new arrangements made. Like Neil Young did an album called Americana,
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Speaker 2: and he did a bunch of songs, you know, Oh Susannah,
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Speaker 2: but you know in America, the Beautiful, so you know,
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Speaker 2: my country Tizzathy. It was a weird album, but it
10:38
Speaker 2: was a great album. And we took it to a
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Speaker 2: musicologist before we came out, and the musicologist determined, okay,
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Speaker 2: Neil wrote a new melody here, he wrote a new
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Speaker 2: verse on this one. He did this. So when you
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Speaker 2: do a copyright arrangement, there are two components in the copyright.
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Speaker 2: One is the non claimed traditional public domain material. And
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Speaker 2: then you know, to continue the example. In Neil's case,
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Speaker 2: the remainder of original material that he created and added
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Speaker 2: to the public domain. Stuff is under copyright in Neil's
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Speaker 2: favor and benefit.
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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I had this podcast. I don't play any
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Speaker 1: copyright music, and I had one before it that I
11:37
Speaker 1: did and it was doing really well, and then I
11:40
Speaker 1: pulled the plug on it because episodes are getting pulled down.
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Speaker 1: It was actually a lot of Beatles episodes and and
11:47
Speaker 1: a lot of people said, why aren't you doing that anymore?
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Speaker 1: I said, well, I spoke with an attorney. He's a
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Speaker 1: professor in copyright law, and I said, you know, I
11:55
Speaker 1: don't play the whole song, but I play this is
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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard this a million times. Oh, I
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Speaker 1: just you know, thirty seconds of the song. There's a
12:01
Speaker 1: whole like these made up rules that are okay and
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Speaker 1: they're not. And it's it's a defense. It's not it's
12:08
Speaker 1: not anything you can you can block anybody from suing you.
12:12
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, just don't even bother. You know,
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Speaker 1: it's it's just not worth it, because if you do
12:17
Speaker 1: start to get popular enough and you hit their radar,
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Speaker 1: then it's it's not something that you're gonna really want
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Speaker 1: to fight, because it's going to be expensive to fight,
12:26
Speaker 1: and even if you did win, it's not going to
12:28
Speaker 1: be worth it because again you're gonna be paying all
12:30
Speaker 1: these expenses for lawyers. Does that sound about right? I
12:34
Speaker 1: made the right call.
12:35
Speaker 2: Have to just bring a little bit more nuanced to
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Speaker 2: what you're saying. There is a concept called fair use,
12:44
Speaker 2: and fair use is basically the government's the US government's
12:51
Speaker 2: attempt to not stifle free speech. And you know, there
12:57
Speaker 2: are certain things where you can and use copyrighted material
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Speaker 2: for free without getting permission with a fair use defense.
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Speaker 2: So let's say you're a college professor and you're writing
13:14
Speaker 2: a book about lyrics that you know opposed the Vietnam War,
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Speaker 2: and supposing you wanted to you know, quote Neil Young's
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Speaker 2: song Ohio the Lyrics and you know, the Democratic Convention
13:31
Speaker 2: in the context of a scholarly analysis of the period,
13:37
Speaker 2: and there are then then you might make a fair
13:41
Speaker 2: use defense of your book. There are I think for
13:47
Speaker 2: criteria that judges can use to determine whether that professor's
13:52
Speaker 2: use was fair use or not. However, you know, as
13:59
Speaker 2: you mention, there's the cost of if someone says we
14:03
Speaker 2: don't think it's a fair use and they take you
14:05
Speaker 2: to court. You could you could be and you know,
14:10
Speaker 2: legal fee hell for the rest of your life. Likewise,
14:13
Speaker 2: if the court agrees with you, okay, great, you didn't
14:16
Speaker 2: have to pay for it, but you spent a lot
14:18
Speaker 2: of money. So it's sort of like a game of
14:20
Speaker 2: chicken to determine whether something was fair use or not.
14:24
Speaker 1: And it is correct, like if you hit their radar,
14:27
Speaker 1: because a lot of podcasts do play music clips of
14:30
Speaker 1: songs and they seem to be fine. But I think
14:33
Speaker 1: it's it's if you, if you, if you start to
14:35
Speaker 1: get poppyer enough, it might it might hit the radar
14:38
Speaker 1: of those who who have the rights to those songs
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Speaker 1: or no.
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Speaker 2: I you know, one of the four criteria I think
14:46
Speaker 2: is the purpose of the years? You know, is it
14:50
Speaker 2: for scholarly or critical purposes? Or is it to make
14:55
Speaker 2: a profit for your podcast? And you know, you can
15:01
Speaker 2: look up what the criteria are for a fair use
15:04
Speaker 2: defense and you can get a lawyer to weigh in
15:07
Speaker 2: on whether or not your podcast is or isn't. I mean,
15:11
Speaker 2: you know, if again, if the university professor is doing
15:15
Speaker 2: it on a non paid basis, you know, reading his
15:19
Speaker 2: book or something versus charging twenty five dollars an episode
15:25
Speaker 2: to listen to him. You know that all factors into it. So,
15:29
Speaker 2: I mean, basically, it is a use of copyrighted material,
15:34
Speaker 2: and it is an infringement, you know, to the extent
15:41
Speaker 2: that the fair use defense isn't withheld up.
15:45
Speaker 1: Well, and you get to people say, well, you're helping
15:47
Speaker 1: to promote their music that they should be thank you.
15:49
Speaker 1: Well that may be, but you still need the permission. Yeah,
15:53
Speaker 1: it's still their decision to make.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think in my book, I think I talk
15:58
Speaker 2: about an alleged story of Sophie Tucker, old Vodville star
16:06
Speaker 2: from way back when, and someone said you should do
16:09
Speaker 2: this show really cheap. It'll be great for your career.
16:13
Speaker 2: It'll be great exposure. And she turned to them and
16:15
Speaker 2: said exposure. Isn't that what you die from?
16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a good line.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean, you know when people come to
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Speaker 2: me and say, hey, you know, it'll be great exposure
16:32
Speaker 2: for the doors to let me use light my fire.
16:35
Speaker 2: They don't need your exposure.
16:38
Speaker 1: You know, they're doing just fine. Yeah. Yeah, even last
16:42
Speaker 1: night I was just telling you I went to see
16:44
Speaker 1: Sammy Hagel last night, I just clip filmed a couple
16:47
Speaker 1: minutes of it just to share with friends, and then
16:49
Speaker 1: I immediately put it onto like unlisted or private or whatever,
16:53
Speaker 1: just to share it with friends. But YouTube was on
16:55
Speaker 1: it right away copyright claim, which is cool. I don't care.
16:58
Speaker 1: I'm not looking to do anything with it other than
17:00
Speaker 1: share it with my friends because it takes up so
17:02
Speaker 1: much space on my phone. Those the only reason I
17:03
Speaker 1: did it. But yeah, I mean it makes sense. What's
17:06
Speaker 1: the biggest mistaken artists can make if they're not careful
17:08
Speaker 1: about the songs they write?
17:10
Speaker 2: In my opinion, it's giving away the publishing to a
17:15
Speaker 2: company or for on a long term basis. I mean,
17:21
Speaker 2: these are your babies, your kids to very some extent,
17:27
Speaker 2: unless you have a very callous attitude to your own
17:31
Speaker 2: creations and anything that's more than a short term basis,
17:38
Speaker 2: I'd say three years is a big risk. I mean,
17:45
Speaker 2: you know, the companies that will give you money to
17:48
Speaker 2: part with your copyrights are professional betters. They would go out,
17:55
Speaker 2: you know, they're handicappers. They would go out of business
17:58
Speaker 2: if on the whole they lost every single bet. You know,
18:05
Speaker 2: they might lose two or three out of ten. But
18:07
Speaker 2: the other steven pay for them, and they're handicapping your
18:11
Speaker 2: career thinking that they will make more than they are
18:16
Speaker 2: giving you. They're in business to do that, and so
18:19
Speaker 2: you're going up against a professional handicapper and betting against yourself,
18:26
Speaker 2: and that's I think the biggest mistake these people make.
18:29
Speaker 1: I heard a story years ago, actually read it, and
18:32
Speaker 1: I printed it up and kept it for my radio
18:34
Speaker 1: days because I would mention it on the air. It
18:36
Speaker 1: was documented, so I'm assuming it's true. But Eddie Money
18:40
Speaker 1: was interviewed once and they asked some boy he tore
18:43
Speaker 1: a lot, and how come you're still out there? Do
18:45
Speaker 1: you do it because you love it? He's like, well, yeah,
18:47
Speaker 1: I love it. But he said I sold all the
18:50
Speaker 1: publishing to my songs to buy a home for my
18:54
Speaker 1: now ex wife.
18:57
Speaker 2: You know.
18:58
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's true, but basically what
18:59
Speaker 1: he said saying is now I make my income by touring.
19:02
Speaker 1: I don't. And what a shame if that's true, Because.
19:05
Speaker 2: No doubt but that that is true for many songwriters.
19:10
Speaker 2: I've heard that story so many times, not necessarily from
19:14
Speaker 2: Eddie Money. I was very fortunate when we represented George
19:19
Speaker 2: Harrison to be invited to a very nice party that
19:24
Speaker 2: they held in Hollywood when they posthumously gave Georgia star
19:31
Speaker 2: on Vine Street on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And
19:35
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of Georgia's friends were there, Paul McCartney,
19:41
Speaker 2: Tom Petty, Jeff Lynn, and in the party, I walked
19:47
Speaker 2: up to Paul, introduced him myself to him and I said, hey,
19:52
Speaker 2: you know, I handle Harris songs for Olivia and it's
19:56
Speaker 2: really nice to meet you. And he just immediately went
20:01
Speaker 2: into a rant about how George was the smart one,
20:05
Speaker 2: he was the one who didn't give all the songs
20:08
Speaker 2: to Northern Songs after a certain point, and it hit
20:13
Speaker 2: such a nerve so many years after the fact. You know,
20:19
Speaker 2: Paul is never gonna hurt for money, but it was
20:22
Speaker 2: still a very sensitive point, you know, after all those years.
20:29
Speaker 2: You know that his songs at that time warn't is.
20:31
Speaker 1: Yeah Olivia, by the way, is George's widow Olivia? Yeah? Wow.
20:36
Speaker 1: So well that story is famous with him and Michael
20:38
Speaker 1: Jackson too, about about how Michael bought out the Beatles catalog,
20:44
Speaker 1: like at the last minute, it's like a bidding war.
20:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, don't don't mention Beatles publishing to right.
20:54
Speaker 1: Well, so is that what's going on with Hall of
20:56
Speaker 1: Oates is that about selling the publishing? Is that I'm
20:59
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on there based on
21:02
Speaker 1: the interviews with Ohs. I don't know how much Daryl
21:05
Speaker 1: said about it.
21:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that both of them sold they're publishing
21:13
Speaker 2: to the first version of Primary Wave before they called
21:16
Speaker 2: it quit, sold to b MG, and then they started
21:22
Speaker 2: Primary Wave number two. I guess we used to administer
21:28
Speaker 2: primary Wave number one and we would do the back
21:31
Speaker 2: office for them, and there was no issues at that time.
21:35
Speaker 2: We just you know, collected and paid. But you know,
21:39
Speaker 2: from what little I've read now you know they're fighting
21:44
Speaker 2: over additional rights and who gets to sell and who can't.
21:49
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't have sold in the first place, so.
21:54
Speaker 1: It would not have you know. Yeah, Well, and I
21:57
Speaker 1: think I wonder if this has to do with it.
21:59
Speaker 1: And you bring this up in a book about you
22:00
Speaker 1: got to be careful who you sell it to because
22:03
Speaker 1: you could have a song and use the example of preparation.
22:06
Speaker 1: H it's like they're giving you a ton of money.
22:08
Speaker 1: Well that's great, but now our song is associated with hemorrhoids.
22:12
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know if I want that. And
22:14
Speaker 1: I think from what I'm gathering is like one of
22:17
Speaker 1: the two guys are saying, I don't want I want
22:20
Speaker 1: just the decision making and the songs that we wrote together.
22:23
Speaker 1: I want to have a say in where they're gonna
22:26
Speaker 1: end up. You know, I don't want to. I don't
22:27
Speaker 1: want to have if it's in somebody else's hands. That's
22:29
Speaker 1: great that they paid us a ton of money, but
22:31
Speaker 1: they're gonna be the ones they're gonna make the call.
22:33
Speaker 1: They're gonna make the call on that.
22:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, Neil Young ended up
22:38
Speaker 2: selling his publishing or half of his publishing, I guess
22:42
Speaker 2: has been reported publicly to Hypnosis. Well, Hypnosis is basically
22:49
Speaker 2: no longer as I understand it, and has been sold
22:53
Speaker 2: to Blackrock. Well. Uh, that's a huge multinational investment vehicle
23:00
Speaker 2: that does investments in all sorts of things. And I
23:04
Speaker 2: mean when I took a look at their website, you
23:08
Speaker 2: know it said they invest in quote unquote tactical opportunities.
23:13
Speaker 2: I mean, you figure out what that is. Is that weaponry?
23:16
Speaker 2: I don't know, right, but you know, I have no
23:20
Speaker 2: doubt that. You know, Neil thought he was selling to
23:25
Speaker 2: hypnosis and didn't know what he might be with a
23:28
Speaker 2: company that was in tactical weaponry. Likewise, Jonathan Richmond, we
23:36
Speaker 2: got a seemingly innocent request for him where he wanted
23:40
Speaker 2: to use where they Sparklets Water wanted to use one
23:44
Speaker 2: of his songs in some promotions. And he took one
23:49
Speaker 2: look at it and said, don't you know, Sparklets Water
23:51
Speaker 2: is owned by Foremost McKesson and they make nuclear reactors,
23:56
Speaker 2: and I don't want to do it, so you know,
24:00
Speaker 2: and he turned down Nesley's chocolate commercials Jonathan Richmond because
24:04
Speaker 2: they were involved in a dilution of baby formula scandal
24:11
Speaker 2: in Africa. So you know, you think chocolate, you think water,
24:18
Speaker 2: you think the company that touts itself as being artist centric.
24:24
Speaker 2: You never know what you're getting as a partner in
24:26
Speaker 2: the long run.
24:27
Speaker 1: So you want to be very protective of your music,
24:30
Speaker 1: which segs into the next question, which had to do
24:33
Speaker 1: with or has to do with right now from Van
24:36
Speaker 1: Halen in nineteen ninety one. The story from Eddie was
24:39
Speaker 1: PEPSI came to him, we want to use right now
24:43
Speaker 1: to promote our new product, Crystal Pepsi. Eddie said no,
24:46
Speaker 1: and they said, well they kind of they kind of
24:48
Speaker 1: strong armed him into it by saying, well, that's fine,
24:50
Speaker 1: we'll just record a generic version of it and we'll
24:53
Speaker 1: go ahead and use it without your thanks. And he
24:55
Speaker 1: was like, whoa wait a minute, Okay, if that's the case,
24:58
Speaker 1: then here you go take it. That So the question
25:03
Speaker 1: is like generic versions of songs, like would he have
25:05
Speaker 1: gotten paid just not as much if it was a
25:09
Speaker 1: bunch of you know, random musicians recording his song.
25:14
Speaker 2: Well, you get into a very important distinction in copyrights here,
25:23
Speaker 2: and that there are two sets of rights. There's the
25:25
Speaker 2: master recording right, and there's the song itself, the underlying composition.
25:31
Speaker 2: And if you know, to take van Halen, you know,
25:36
Speaker 2: if they record a Kink song whereof all the good
25:40
Speaker 2: Time's gone, the Kinks can determine, you know, whoever owns
25:45
Speaker 2: the copyright. I think it's Abaco in the you know
25:50
Speaker 2: Kinks song can decide whether or not to license the
25:54
Speaker 2: song and at what terms, and if they go ahead
25:59
Speaker 2: and do it. In van Halen's case, it might be
26:03
Speaker 2: Warner Brothers decision onto whether or not they license the
26:09
Speaker 2: van Halen master of that to a commercial or whether
26:13
Speaker 2: someone just goes out and gets a different recording, you know,
26:17
Speaker 2: maybe the King's recording, maybe studio musicians making it, and
26:23
Speaker 2: groups may or may not have approval rights over what
26:26
Speaker 2: their labels do with their master Hmmm.
26:30
Speaker 1: Well it's like they did Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman, but
26:33
Speaker 1: they changed the title to oh pretty Woman. Is that
26:36
Speaker 1: to get around some kind of legal issue or is
26:38
Speaker 1: that just what the hell? So this, well, this tells me,
26:41
Speaker 1: you know Van Hillen very well, because you chose a
26:44
Speaker 1: song instead of you really got me. He chose the
26:46
Speaker 1: song from Diver Down, So thumbs up right there. I
26:49
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah. I've heard people use the term wild
26:52
Speaker 1: West to describe the music business today, you know, thanks
26:55
Speaker 1: to streaming services and internet. Was there every time in
26:57
Speaker 1: rock history when it was like this, like back in
26:59
Speaker 1: the fifties. I always thought maybe in rock music was
27:02
Speaker 1: just becoming a moneymaker. Maybe it would have been similar
27:05
Speaker 1: because it was kind of the wild West at that time, or.
27:07
Speaker 2: No, it was to a lesser extent. Uh, you know,
27:14
Speaker 2: free wheeling and wild West way back when. You know.
27:19
Speaker 2: What has happened is a lot of businesses and companies
27:25
Speaker 2: and services that come in to the current world with
27:32
Speaker 2: a lot of startup money, you know, billions and billions
27:36
Speaker 2: of dollars in revenue, and it's unfortunately cheaper for some
27:43
Speaker 2: of these people to use now, infringe now and then
27:50
Speaker 2: resolved later after the fact. And you know, when you
27:56
Speaker 2: get a company, you know that has revenue and the
27:59
Speaker 2: billion and just is daring you to go ahead and
28:04
Speaker 2: sue us and come after us. Yeah, we're using hundreds
28:08
Speaker 2: of thousands of songs, you know, from a catalog without
28:12
Speaker 2: a license. But it's easier for them and cheaper and
28:18
Speaker 2: a good often you know, depending on who you ask,
28:22
Speaker 2: a good business decision to just get to the market first,
28:27
Speaker 2: get your product or service out there first, and then
28:31
Speaker 2: we solved the people that come after you afterwards, you know,
28:36
Speaker 2: might be cheaper.
28:38
Speaker 1: Book on rock podcasts. We'll be back after this.
28:41
Speaker 2: It can I go all right to sit down, I'll
28:45
Speaker 2: be right back.
28:47
Speaker 1: Streaming services before I get into the question is how
28:51
Speaker 1: much does an artist get for each stream? Just one
28:53
Speaker 1: last Van Hill mentioned here because it has to do
28:55
Speaker 1: with streaming services, which is their last album, twenty twelves.
28:59
Speaker 1: A different kind of truth dropped off. Streaming services was gone,
29:03
Speaker 1: and then there was a bit of war words between
29:04
Speaker 1: Wolfgang van Halen and David Lee Roth over why it
29:07
Speaker 1: wasn't there. It's since come back. Who and what determines
29:10
Speaker 1: whether a song or album is on streaming services? And
29:13
Speaker 1: for how long is it a contract deal?
29:17
Speaker 2: Okay, the way you asked the question, I'm going to
29:21
Speaker 2: give you a specific answer. You said, who determines whether
29:25
Speaker 2: a song is on.
29:27
Speaker 1: A streaming song or album?
29:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, a song is determined by the publisher, whether a
29:34
Speaker 2: publisher has a deal in place with a licensed streaming service.
29:40
Speaker 2: A recording is determined by the master. So you know,
29:47
Speaker 2: we have over ten thousand recordings of Santa claus Is
29:51
Speaker 2: Coming to Town on Spotify, and we've approved all of them.
29:57
Speaker 2: They're all fine to be up there. But there is
30:01
Speaker 2: the label side that the person who owns the person
30:07
Speaker 2: or company who owns the master recording can determined whether
30:12
Speaker 2: or not they want their master on set a Spotify.
30:17
Speaker 2: You know there's a Bruce Springsteen and Michael Boublay at
30:20
Speaker 2: Jackson five. You know, there's there's so many versions of
30:25
Speaker 2: Santa claus Is Coming to Town. And if Bruce Springstein's
30:29
Speaker 2: label says to Spotify, you can't use Bruce's version on Spotify.
30:34
Speaker 2: Even though we've given permission on the publishing side, they
30:39
Speaker 2: don't have to give it on the master side. So
30:41
Speaker 2: Spotify would use every single one that the labels have
30:45
Speaker 2: been approved and the publishers have been approved, but they
30:48
Speaker 2: wouldn't use the one that Springsteen's label declient hypothetically.
30:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting. We just talked to an author of a
30:56
Speaker 1: book on yan t and I always like to put
30:58
Speaker 1: a playlist together in the link to it, and it
31:00
Speaker 1: was like, half their songs aren't on Spotify and that's
31:03
Speaker 1: because it's a band you had many different labels, or
31:07
Speaker 1: not many different labels, but they had a smaller label
31:08
Speaker 1: in the beginning, So their first two albums they're not there.
31:12
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people wonder that, like
31:13
Speaker 1: why isn't it there? And that that's the reason. How
31:17
Speaker 1: much do artists get paid for stream Do you think
31:20
Speaker 1: it's fair?
31:21
Speaker 2: Right?
31:21
Speaker 1: That's what I hear. It's like point nine percent of
31:24
Speaker 1: a penny or something, and.
31:26
Speaker 2: It's a micro pennies. When when we represented Journey, we
31:36
Speaker 2: had don't stop believing them, and one of the guys
31:42
Speaker 2: called me up and said, hey, guess what, we got
31:44
Speaker 2: forty million streams on this how much did I get.
31:48
Speaker 2: I told him a very low number when I telled
31:52
Speaker 2: it up, and I mean it was just a few
31:58
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.
31:59
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
32:00
Speaker 2: And I said, well, you know, they said, but it's
32:03
Speaker 2: forty million. I said, no, that that's not even a
32:06
Speaker 2: bump in the streaming world. You know, you've got to start,
32:09
Speaker 2: you know, to make money. You got to be a
32:11
Speaker 2: few hundred million streams or you know what I would
32:14
Speaker 2: consider money.
32:15
Speaker 1: So do you see changes in the future being made
32:18
Speaker 1: on that is? Are there battles going on as we speak?
32:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's progress being made on a number of fronts.
32:26
Speaker 2: You know. First of all, the Copyright Loyalty Board raised
32:31
Speaker 2: it and it got upheld in appeal that there'll be
32:36
Speaker 2: a phased in forty four percent raised to publishers for
32:44
Speaker 2: songs being streamed, and so that went up and will
32:48
Speaker 2: hopefully continue to go up in the future. There's also
32:53
Speaker 2: what is you know, typically referred to as a value
33:02
Speaker 2: in balance, where if a film licenses a song for
33:11
Speaker 2: use in a film, they typically pay the label the
33:15
Speaker 2: same amount for a master recording as the underlying composition.
33:20
Speaker 2: So if they were using whereof all the good times gone?
33:24
Speaker 2: You know, by Van Halen. The film might pay fifty
33:27
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to Warner Records for the use of the
33:31
Speaker 2: Van Halen Master and fifty thousand dollars to the publisher
33:36
Speaker 2: of The Kinksong, and the value in balance has been
33:43
Speaker 2: that the labels got, you know, I guess to their credit.
33:50
Speaker 2: Maybe we're smarter and got to the streaming services. And
33:57
Speaker 2: so originally it was something like the value ratio on
34:02
Speaker 2: a master was eleven times I think what the publisher
34:06
Speaker 2: got from a streaming service, and now it's creeping closer
34:11
Speaker 2: to fifty to fifty. You know that the song is
34:15
Speaker 2: worth the same as what the master recording is worth.
34:19
Speaker 2: But you know, if I'm not mistaken, it might be
34:23
Speaker 2: seven to one now, but you know, in a perfect
34:26
Speaker 2: world it should be one to one.
34:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I want to feel like I'm supporting
34:30
Speaker 1: the artists by at least playing a stream. I get
34:32
Speaker 1: artists want you to buy their music, but it's like
34:36
Speaker 1: the vehicles nowadays, there's not even a CD player that's
34:39
Speaker 1: in there. So I mean it's like, I don't even
34:41
Speaker 1: know if I wanted to buy something, you know, where
34:45
Speaker 1: do I play? Like even I don't think on Spotify
34:48
Speaker 1: you even have the option of buying the song. I
34:50
Speaker 1: know Amazon will do that, but no, it's just Yeah.
34:54
Speaker 2: I bought the David Bowie Ziggy Stardust Box. It was
34:58
Speaker 2: one of my most it's important albums in my history.
35:04
Speaker 2: And when I got to the ken ultimate disc in
35:07
Speaker 2: the set, it was a Blu ray disc and I'm saying,
35:11
Speaker 2: oh shit, I can't even get like thoughts. Yeah, And
35:15
Speaker 2: so I went into the other room, found found a
35:18
Speaker 2: Blu ray player that that was dusty under the TV set,
35:23
Speaker 2: brought it into the music room, plugged it all in,
35:27
Speaker 2: got it all hooked up, and was able to listen
35:29
Speaker 2: to it.
35:30
Speaker 1: But you shouldn't have to go out of your way
35:32
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, now, what about.
35:34
Speaker 2: It took me three hours? Right, damn thing?
35:37
Speaker 1: God, I hit a friend of mine. Just give me
35:38
Speaker 1: these these great CDs of doors recording it, the whiskey
35:42
Speaker 1: of Go Go and all that. I was like, oh cool.
35:44
Speaker 1: And then I I didn't even I didn't even think
35:46
Speaker 1: to look in my vehicle, and I said, where's the seed.
35:50
Speaker 1: I'm like trying to put it in somewhere. It's not there.
35:54
Speaker 1: What about an artist who wants to record a cover
35:56
Speaker 1: of a song, for an album, do they have to
36:00
Speaker 1: pay and does that apply to like if they're on
36:04
Speaker 1: tour and they want to play a song, Okay, I
36:07
Speaker 1: always thought and tour you could play whatever you want live.
36:11
Speaker 2: There's two questions there. One is recorded for a record
36:18
Speaker 2: or streaming and the other is a venue to record
36:22
Speaker 2: it on a record. As long as you're not changing
36:25
Speaker 2: the fundamental character of the song, anybody can record a
36:30
Speaker 2: song that has been voluntarily released. There are requirements for
36:36
Speaker 2: doing that, but that's called a statutory mechanical license, and
36:42
Speaker 2: the requirements specify. I think now you've got to pay
36:47
Speaker 2: twelve point one cent a recording for each copy you distribute.
36:53
Speaker 2: So if you made a thousand CDs of of All
36:57
Speaker 2: the Good Times Gone, then you owe someone. I think
37:01
Speaker 2: it's one hundred and twenty dollars if I did the
37:04
Speaker 2: math right, so one hundred and twenty one dollars. So
37:10
Speaker 2: you know, as long as you serve notice that you
37:12
Speaker 2: are recording the song to the publisher and you make
37:16
Speaker 2: the requisite payments, anyone can record that song, even if
37:21
Speaker 2: you have no talent, as long as you're not changing
37:24
Speaker 2: the fundamental character of the song. It's a statutory mechanical rate,
37:32
Speaker 2: and it's a compulsory license. As long as they comply,
37:38
Speaker 2: you can't stop them. That's why the sex Pistols were
37:42
Speaker 2: able to record My Way, you know. You know, I
37:48
Speaker 2: think Paul Anka might have initially not been so keen
37:52
Speaker 2: on that idea. So as to venues, though, when you
37:58
Speaker 2: get to venues, uh, you are not making a copy
38:06
Speaker 2: of it, you are publicly performing it. So as long
38:11
Speaker 2: as the venue has a valid performing rights license from
38:17
Speaker 2: the society representing the publisher, you're okay. So like in
38:23
Speaker 2: Tom Petty's case, if he's an ASCAP writer, if the society,
38:29
Speaker 2: if the venue has a license from ASCAP, you know,
38:35
Speaker 2: anyone performing an ASCAP song in that venue is totally covered.
38:41
Speaker 1: Wow. So it's the venue itself. Yeah, Wow.
38:46
Speaker 2: Public performance is taking place in the venue. If it's
38:50
Speaker 2: not a venue per se. Say someone sets up a
38:54
Speaker 2: stage on the beach, you know, in Manhattan Beach and
38:57
Speaker 2: does a festival, then the promoter has to get a
39:03
Speaker 2: license for public performance either from the band's publisher with
39:09
Speaker 2: societies ASCAT, BMI, c SET, GMR.
39:16
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. And all of this is covered in the
39:18
Speaker 1: book The Plain and Simple Guide to Music Publishing the
39:20
Speaker 1: fifth edition and you do write it in a way
39:22
Speaker 1: that's easily accessible, and it's entertaining to read because it
39:26
Speaker 1: is something it's important for musicians songwriters to read, but
39:30
Speaker 1: it's also just for something like myself just fascinated with
39:33
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's just a great read. So I really
39:38
Speaker 1: urge people to get this fifth edition because there are
39:40
Speaker 1: so many changes that you mentioned. AI recordings are now
39:44
Speaker 1: becoming a big thing too. There's another one, right, So
39:47
Speaker 1: you got this album. This UK band use AI to
39:50
Speaker 1: imagine what Oasis might sound like if they were to
39:54
Speaker 1: reform and release a new album. So they put out this.
39:57
Speaker 1: They're called a Breezer I think is the band, and
40:00
Speaker 1: they created their own tracks and added an AI version
40:03
Speaker 1: of Liam Gallagher's voice over the top. Is that legally
40:06
Speaker 1: okay to do?
40:08
Speaker 2: It's only legally okay to do if you get permission
40:14
Speaker 2: two machine learn the copyrighted material that is being used
40:20
Speaker 2: to synthesize the voice. If you've gone to the UH,
40:25
Speaker 2: you know, the Gallagher's label and the Gallagher's and gotten
40:28
Speaker 2: permission to train your AI with the real voice and
40:34
Speaker 2: with real songs and with real lyrics. If you had
40:37
Speaker 2: gotten that permission UH and worked out a deal, uh,
40:42
Speaker 2: you know, with the copyright owners of the material ingested
40:46
Speaker 2: to learn. Uh, then it would be legal. But no
40:49
Speaker 2: one's doing.
40:50
Speaker 1: That, and very they call it a isis yeah, A
40:57
Speaker 1: isis Yeah. I mean I just think, boy, if I'm
40:59
Speaker 1: a saying, I'm like, who wha what are you doing?
41:01
Speaker 1: You're taking my You're taking my voice and you just
41:03
Speaker 1: go ahead and use it without asking me.
41:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could also go ahead and look
41:09
Speaker 2: at Freedo Lay versus Tom Waits, and you could look
41:15
Speaker 2: at Bett Midler versus Ford Motor Company online, and that
41:20
Speaker 2: talks about a tangential. Both of those cases talk about
41:25
Speaker 2: tangential issues where those companies hired people who sounded like
41:32
Speaker 2: Beat Middler and people who sounded like Tom Waits without
41:37
Speaker 2: paying them. And in the days of prior to AI,
41:44
Speaker 2: you know, it was a sound alike person. Now it's
41:48
Speaker 2: a computer that's doing you know, the synthesis of what
41:52
Speaker 2: that person sounded like or wrote like or saying like.
41:57
Speaker 2: But you know, those those cases the artists pretty much
42:01
Speaker 2: prevailed on. You know, you can't use someone that sounds
42:06
Speaker 2: like me, you know, to to mislead the published that
42:10
Speaker 2: the public that I'm endorsing your products.
42:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also radio station's use of music in commercials
42:18
Speaker 1: is a big thing. The station I worked at played
42:21
Speaker 1: a use the Bruce Springsteen song to promote some local
42:25
Speaker 1: business and somebody from I don't know, somebody from Bruce's
42:29
Speaker 1: people or the label whatever, just happened to live in
42:30
Speaker 1: the area and heard it. They got pissed.
42:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, we get, we get, you know, emails and phone
42:37
Speaker 2: calls all the time from people saying would Tom Pitty
42:42
Speaker 2: ever approve it? Crappy t shirt saying you belong amongst
42:46
Speaker 2: the wild flowers, you know, for for a nursery and
42:51
Speaker 2: you go after them. We got to stop it to
42:54
Speaker 2: protect the name, which we would have you know, we
42:59
Speaker 2: no longer and Thompson.
43:01
Speaker 1: Well, Don Henley is really really aggressive when it comes
43:05
Speaker 1: to YouTube. Like if you go to YouTube and you
43:06
Speaker 1: look for an Eagle song or Don Henley song, if
43:09
Speaker 1: it's not put up by him or his people, it
43:12
Speaker 1: comes down. Which is the next question. Was it up
43:14
Speaker 1: to the person? Am I wrong? Is it not? Even
43:16
Speaker 1: Don I don't know. I heard he hires a staff
43:18
Speaker 1: of people to go on YouTube and look make sure
43:21
Speaker 1: it's all legit. Is it up to the person who
43:23
Speaker 1: owns the music to take their work down on YouTube.
43:27
Speaker 2: It's up to the person who the person or company
43:32
Speaker 2: that owns the music, not necessarily the person who wrote it.
43:36
Speaker 2: So if the person who wrote it sold the song
43:39
Speaker 2: to a publisher, then it would be the publisher's decision
43:44
Speaker 2: as to whether to go after them. If the person
43:47
Speaker 2: who wrote the song, like Don Henley, kept it and
43:52
Speaker 2: didn't sell it to someone, then then that person is
43:55
Speaker 2: the publisher and go after someone. Henley and I are
43:59
Speaker 2: both mutual friends of Stan Lynch from Tom Petty's band,
44:04
Speaker 2: The Original.
44:05
Speaker 1: Drummer, one of my favorite drummers.
44:07
Speaker 2: He's great, He's absolutely great, and I'm in touch with
44:11
Speaker 2: him about once a week, but we share stuff back
44:16
Speaker 2: and forth. You know. Sometimes he'll say, Henley liked what
44:21
Speaker 2: you did on this, and I'll say, hey, I like
44:23
Speaker 2: what Henley did on that, and you know, we're both
44:26
Speaker 2: aware of each other's defense of songwriters and writers and.
44:33
Speaker 1: Interesting Stan Lynch I just heard he was he's a
44:36
Speaker 1: songwriter too. He contributed a song to I Forgetting, he
44:39
Speaker 1: contributed a song for another artist.
44:42
Speaker 2: Well, he's written for the Eagles, the be Birds, the Mavericks. Okay,
44:48
Speaker 2: I can't remember all the people he's written for and
44:52
Speaker 2: he's also a record producer. He produced some tracks on
44:57
Speaker 2: some Eagles records. You know, he has a studio I
45:02
Speaker 2: think near Gamesville, Florida where he lives now, and recording bands.
45:10
Speaker 1: What a style of just a fantastic drummer. I'm all
45:15
Speaker 1: the albums he's on with Petty I love, and I
45:17
Speaker 1: love the albums after, but I loved his He had
45:20
Speaker 1: that finesse, that style that just stands out.
45:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a very famous drummer who I won't mention,
45:26
Speaker 2: but he's probably one of the top five drummers of
45:29
Speaker 2: all time, and he has personally told me. He said
45:34
Speaker 2: Stephen Feroni, Tom's current drummer, final drummer. Ye, he's a
45:42
Speaker 2: great drummer, but there's nothing that compares to the tracks
45:46
Speaker 2: that had stand on them. Stan was trying to keep
45:52
Speaker 2: up for his dear life, but it just had a
45:56
Speaker 2: different sound. And I mean, I'm friends with Steven and
46:01
Speaker 2: I love what he's done.
46:02
Speaker 1: Oh phenomenal job.
46:05
Speaker 2: But but you know, if I had to pick one
46:08
Speaker 2: over the other, sorry, Steven, I'd picked stand for Tom
46:12
Speaker 2: Petty's band. Yeah.
46:14
Speaker 1: Most sampling requests from the rap, hip hop and R
46:17
Speaker 1: and B worlds. You write quote, when considering a sample request,
46:21
Speaker 1: it's important to obtain and review a transcription of the
46:24
Speaker 1: lyrics or rap in order to make an informed decision.
46:28
Speaker 1: Expand on that a little bit. How the cost can
46:30
Speaker 1: range depending on how much of the song is sampled.
46:32
Speaker 1: This is something I didn't know either.
46:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's no flat rate. You know, you
46:38
Speaker 2: can turn down a sample request if you don't like it.
46:42
Speaker 2: So if you are going to approve it, you get
46:45
Speaker 2: to decide how much of either the new work or
46:50
Speaker 2: how much they have to pay you you will own.
46:55
Speaker 2: And when it comes down to it, you know, you
46:59
Speaker 2: usually get a i'm a recording. As the person is
47:02
Speaker 2: talking about F this and f that and using the
47:05
Speaker 2: N word all over the place, and you had a
47:08
Speaker 2: delightful little love song about how much you loved your puppy,
47:12
Speaker 2: you might not want to approve it at all. On
47:15
Speaker 2: the other hand, they might come to you and say, hey,
47:19
Speaker 2: you know, this guy has a billion streams on his
47:22
Speaker 2: last album and we'll pay you one hundred thousand dollars
47:26
Speaker 2: guarantee up front to sample your little puppy song. You
47:30
Speaker 2: might say, Okay, principles out the window.
47:33
Speaker 1: I'll pick the Money podcasts. We'll be back after this,
47:37
Speaker 1: I will, we.
47:38
Speaker 2: Can you, Jasy, I will be back.
47:46
Speaker 1: I heard that the Beastie Boys Paul's Boutique record, which
47:49
Speaker 1: was so far ahead of its time, and I love
47:51
Speaker 1: love that album. I love BC Boys that that was
47:53
Speaker 1: there were so many samples on there, But that was
47:55
Speaker 1: at a time when they didn't need they didn't ask
47:58
Speaker 1: for permission because it really just didn't think it was
48:00
Speaker 1: going to be such a money maker, and that after
48:04
Speaker 1: that things changed. Is that true? Do you know?
48:07
Speaker 2: I would say in general what you're saying happened in
48:11
Speaker 2: a lot of different cases. People that then didn't bother
48:16
Speaker 2: to get permission, just like some of the streaming services
48:19
Speaker 2: didn't bother to get permission now and they had to
48:24
Speaker 2: clean up messes after the fact to clear samples that
48:29
Speaker 2: they didn't get permission for upfront.
48:32
Speaker 1: Now.
48:33
Speaker 2: I think in general, for the major labels, the you know,
48:40
Speaker 2: procedure is generally to get try and clear sample before
48:45
Speaker 2: something is released. I you know, recently we heard about
48:50
Speaker 2: Kanye and Ozzy Osbourne at it because Kanye released something
48:59
Speaker 2: that that the Osborne said no to. I said, we
49:03
Speaker 2: don't want to be a part of your anti Semitic rams,
49:06
Speaker 2: Sharon Osborne being Jewish and being very concerned about you know,
49:12
Speaker 2: the statements that Kanye was made him so and I
49:17
Speaker 2: have nothing against Kanye or Sharon Osbourne. Just for the record,
49:20
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to repeat, you know when I've read
49:24
Speaker 2: and you know, I imagine they're cleaning up that mess
49:28
Speaker 2: because they used it anyway.
49:30
Speaker 1: So, yeah, nineteen eighty nine was Paul's boutique. Always want
49:34
Speaker 1: to say eighty seven, but still eighty nine was like
49:36
Speaker 1: the early that was the early days of sampling where
49:40
Speaker 1: soon after that it became a huge thing. And the
49:42
Speaker 1: other the story about sting with with every breath you take.
49:46
Speaker 1: He's the sole songwriting credit on there, and Indy Summers
49:50
Speaker 1: is still recently said he's considering taking legal action or is.
49:53
Speaker 1: But he makes so much money off of not just
49:55
Speaker 1: the song itself, but then when p didd he samples
49:58
Speaker 1: it and uses it, He's like, I could I could
50:03
Speaker 1: just make a living off of that alone, Like just
50:05
Speaker 1: the publishing of that.
50:06
Speaker 2: That goes to my point, don't sell, you're publishing. You're
50:09
Speaker 2: dealing with a professional handicapper. But you know, with respect
50:17
Speaker 2: to claims of authorship, years after the fact one of
50:22
Speaker 2: the factors that typically has to be overcome on something
50:26
Speaker 2: like that is a legal it issue called latches. And
50:31
Speaker 2: latches means, hey, Andy Summer, you were in the police.
50:37
Speaker 2: You saw came out when you know, with this thing's
50:42
Speaker 2: name on it and no other name, and you didn't
50:45
Speaker 2: do anything for twenty thirty forty years. I don't know
50:48
Speaker 2: when it came out. You know, you're barred from pursuing
50:52
Speaker 2: it because you ignored it for so long. And that's
50:54
Speaker 2: what latches is. So I imagine, and I'm not a lawyer
50:58
Speaker 2: and not given legal advice or analysis, but as a publisher,
51:03
Speaker 2: I think that you know, that would be one of
51:06
Speaker 2: the defenses that someone might make for a late in
51:11
Speaker 2: the career claim to authorship.
51:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of famous stories like Zeppelin
51:17
Speaker 1: was always the talk where a lot of people came
51:19
Speaker 1: after Zeppelin for the debate over whether they were stealing
51:23
Speaker 1: music or just it was inspiring their their music. But
51:26
Speaker 1: the big one is Vanilla ICE's Queen's under pressure that
51:29
Speaker 1: that whole thing. Vanilla Ice later claimed that he purchased
51:33
Speaker 1: the publishing rights to under pressure, saying that buying the
51:36
Speaker 1: song for four million dollars made more financial sense than
51:40
Speaker 1: paying out royalties. But then a queen spokeman spokesman said
51:44
Speaker 1: that statement's inaccurate. So you are the inside you don't know, okay.
51:49
Speaker 2: The general rule of thumb is when you have a
51:51
Speaker 2: really big hit record, a song that you've written, someone
51:55
Speaker 2: else is going to come out of the woodwork and
51:57
Speaker 2: say they wrote it. It just the nature of it.
52:01
Speaker 2: You know, well, that's similar to something that I wrote,
52:04
Speaker 2: and you're going to deal with that. It's a nuisance
52:08
Speaker 2: of making a lot of money on a hip record.
52:11
Speaker 2: And when I worked with the Offspring and come out
52:14
Speaker 2: and Play, this is all in public documents. We had
52:18
Speaker 2: three people come out of the woodwork and say they
52:21
Speaker 2: had written come out and Play, and that they had,
52:27
Speaker 2: you know, an infringement claim against the band. And you know,
52:33
Speaker 2: my approach was fine. All three of you say you
52:36
Speaker 2: wrote it, Why don't you have an elimination round, and
52:39
Speaker 2: whoever wins that can come and sue the band. It
52:44
Speaker 2: all sort of ran away at that point. You know.
52:47
Speaker 1: There's another one that I just covered a book on
52:50
Speaker 1: the widows of famous rockers, and Ronnie van Zant's widow,
52:54
Speaker 1: Judy went through some legal battles with the members of
52:57
Speaker 1: Skinner and over the use of or it's just a
52:59
Speaker 1: continueuation of the band. And that was another. Sometimes they
53:04
Speaker 1: can get ugly and it's unfortunate and but Skinnered is
53:07
Speaker 1: still going to this day without technically any original members.
53:11
Speaker 1: But we we are in a different air now. I
53:13
Speaker 1: think the band names will will continue long after the
53:18
Speaker 1: members that are in it, just because the people keep
53:21
Speaker 1: coming back makes them feel good to go out there
53:23
Speaker 1: and hear their songs that they grew up on.
53:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it depends on what the band agreements say,
53:31
Speaker 2: you know, intermember agreements. Who owns the name? Who can
53:35
Speaker 2: tour as the Kingsman, who can tour as Sticks? You know,
53:40
Speaker 2: who can tour as Journey? You know, if Steve Perry's
53:44
Speaker 2: no longer in the in the group, they have to
53:48
Speaker 2: make an arrangement. If Steve was a member and original
53:52
Speaker 2: owner of the group named Journey, does he get a
53:58
Speaker 2: piece of the murder? I don't know. Does he get
54:00
Speaker 2: a piece of the merchandise? Can they tour without him?
54:03
Speaker 2: Does he get a piece of the tour proceeds? Who knows?
54:06
Speaker 2: It depends on what's in a particular band agreement.
54:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody who wrote a book on Juny recently said
54:12
Speaker 1: Steve and Neil Sean talked through lawyers these days. Yeah,
54:16
Speaker 1: another well known case. This is one I think I
54:19
Speaker 1: get it. But if you can explain that John Fogerty
54:22
Speaker 1: getting sued for copying his own song. This was an
54:26
Speaker 1: eighty four His old label Fantasy in claimed that he
54:30
Speaker 1: copied his Credence clear Water Revival song Run through the
54:32
Speaker 1: Jungle on his then hit center Field. So Fogerty ultimately
54:37
Speaker 1: won the battle. But how can something like this even happen?
54:40
Speaker 2: It can happen, and I believe the song in question
54:43
Speaker 2: was zams Can't Dance?
54:45
Speaker 1: Oh was it SAMs Can's Dance and not center Field?
54:47
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, well that was the song. Yeah, and uh
54:53
Speaker 2: well I could be wrong or could be but the
54:55
Speaker 2: other way, what song it was? What happened, from my understanding,
55:02
Speaker 2: from a very high level overview, was that Fogerty wrote
55:06
Speaker 2: the songs, assign them to the publishing entity owned by
55:12
Speaker 2: Fantasy Records, and thus Fantasy Records was the owner and
55:18
Speaker 2: controller of the song, not John Fogerty.
55:22
Speaker 1: And we were both wrong. By the way, it's the
55:25
Speaker 1: old man down the road.
55:26
Speaker 2: I quickly, ye did get picked pissed about the songs
55:32
Speaker 2: dance Can't Dance and there may have been litigation over there.
55:36
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right. He changed it to vans Can't
55:39
Speaker 1: Dance or something. Yeah, he changed.
55:42
Speaker 2: I believe my copy is the rich right at any rate.
55:47
Speaker 2: You know, it would just now that that Fantasy Records
55:52
Speaker 2: owned the song. If Michael Jackson came out and did
55:57
Speaker 2: a version that sounded a song that's to just like
56:00
Speaker 2: one of the songs that Fantasy had acquired, they'd go
56:04
Speaker 2: after them. And they were treating Fogerty as a third
56:12
Speaker 2: party who copied a song that they owned. And you know,
56:17
Speaker 2: from my standpoint, John Fogerty, you know, just a brilliant songwriter,
56:25
Speaker 2: had certain styles and idioms he used in many of
56:31
Speaker 2: the songs, and he can't stop being him. And it
56:34
Speaker 2: comes down to the question of, you know, whether that
56:38
Speaker 2: was a fundamental way he wrote or whether it was
56:42
Speaker 2: a true infringement of work he had sold to someone else.
56:48
Speaker 2: And I don't know how it was ultimately resolved, but
56:52
Speaker 2: I'm sure the lawyers made a lot of money.
56:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many I want to ask too. I
56:57
Speaker 1: just think of the Healey Lewis one the Ghostbuster song.
57:00
Speaker 1: That was another one. But I'll finish with one last
57:01
Speaker 1: question to a songwriter listening right now who is just
57:04
Speaker 1: starting out, what is the most important piece of advice
57:07
Speaker 1: that you would give.
57:09
Speaker 2: This. This is a very subjective piece of advice, but
57:13
Speaker 2: my advice would be, learn how to play an instrument,
57:18
Speaker 2: practice it well. Learn about musical theory, learn about writing lyrics,
57:25
Speaker 2: read poetry, read lyrics. Don't rely on the tools that
57:34
Speaker 2: are available to make it very possible to do very little,
57:39
Speaker 2: you know, like sampling stuff or getting someone to create
57:43
Speaker 2: a beat for you, or you know, become an artist,
57:51
Speaker 2: a writer, a creator. Don't use the AI. Don't go
57:55
Speaker 2: to uh you know, you know, one of these bots
58:01
Speaker 2: and say, you know, write write lyrics about this and
58:06
Speaker 2: that and four verses. Don't do that. Learn how to
58:10
Speaker 2: do it. You will write a better song. You will
58:13
Speaker 2: be able to create a better melody. And my belief
58:18
Speaker 2: is that good songs come out of a lot of
58:22
Speaker 2: hard work. I mean, you know, look at Leonard Cohen
58:26
Speaker 2: with a thousand verses of Hallelujah before he said it
58:30
Speaker 2: was kind of close to them. You know, talk to
58:34
Speaker 2: Don Henley or Jenn about how long it takes him
58:37
Speaker 2: to finish something, but HI don't. But you know that
58:46
Speaker 2: that would be my advice. And then not only creating
58:51
Speaker 2: good songs, that's half the battle, but then you've got
58:56
Speaker 2: to get someone, either yourself or someone else to be
59:00
Speaker 2: able to get it out there and record it. You
59:02
Speaker 2: can have the best song in the world, and if
59:05
Speaker 2: you can't get it to somebody or it never gets recorded,
59:09
Speaker 2: then it's still in a drawer on a hard disk.
59:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and they should read your book to the
59:15
Speaker 1: Plain and Simple Guide to Music Publishing.
59:17
Speaker 2: Of course.
59:18
Speaker 1: That's like Tom Petty said. Man, if that book was
59:22
Speaker 1: out back then, then it's out in a new, brand new,
59:25
Speaker 1: updated fifth edition. You can find it where books are
59:28
Speaker 1: sold and right of where can people find you online?
59:33
Speaker 2: I don't have much of an online presence. You can
59:36
Speaker 2: go to witsenmusic dot com or Witsenmusic dot co UK,
59:42
Speaker 2: depending on whether you're here or Europe, and you can
59:45
Speaker 2: track down the company.
59:48
Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll put the links to those sites
59:50
Speaker 1: on the show notes page. Randall, thank you so much.
59:52
Speaker 1: This was a fascinating conversation. I learned so much.
59:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and everything that I've said here personal opinion, I
1:00:01
Speaker 2: might be willing to go back on things or refine them.
1:00:08
Speaker 2: I've been in situations before where I've done interviews where
1:00:12
Speaker 2: people have brought it up in law cases and depositions
1:00:15
Speaker 2: and said, but you said this in your book, or
1:00:17
Speaker 2: you said that in an interview, So I revised the
1:00:21
Speaker 2: right to change anything. And everything that I've said is
1:00:27
Speaker 2: either public knowledge or spoken with the consent of people
1:00:33
Speaker 2: who have set up to share these stories.
1:00:35
Speaker 1: Noted and well well said Randall.
1:00:38
Speaker 3: Okay, that's it.
1:00:49
Speaker 1: It's in the books.