Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom who lost 2 sons to opioid epidemic talks to Nancy

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Mom who lost 2 sons to opioid epidemic talks to Nancy · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being our partner. Climb stories with
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  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one two. Nick
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: and Jack Savage. The two brothers died two years ago
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  Speaker 1: from an overdose of oxy codone and alcohol. Our boys,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: by no means, were drug abusers and the ausupparch wives
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: that they made that night, these are kids. They're your
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: next door where my next door neighbor and trying to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: get the final cross that you don't have to be
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: a drug abuser today have an overdose. This is the
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  Speaker 1: real picture of America's opioid crisis. We're druggs. Don't discriminate.
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  Speaker 1: It's infesting neighborhoods across the heartland. One bad choice it
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  Speaker 1: can kill you. It is ravaging every single segment of
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  Speaker 1: our society. This is a chemical almost warfare on us.
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  Speaker 1: More freezers are overflowing with the bodies of those who
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  Speaker 1: lost their battle. Imagine you pouring all your hopes, all
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  Speaker 1: your love, all your dreams into your children. You give
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  Speaker 1: birth to them, You raise them, you watch them grow,
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  Speaker 1: take their first steps, go to school, turn in two
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  Speaker 1: young men or young women as they go through life
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  Speaker 1: and your dreams seemingly come true, but then enter opioids.
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  Speaker 1: One mom describes the agony of losing two teen boys
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  Speaker 1: two opioids in one night, two teen boys, the loves
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  Speaker 1: of her life gone in one night. I'm Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: Rebecca Savages, two boys, Jack and Nick both die after
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  Speaker 1: taking oxy code own at a graduation party. Both dead,
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  Speaker 1: she tries. She tries to revive Jack when she finds
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  Speaker 1: him unresponsive in his bedroom and at the very same
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  Speaker 1: time rescuers are trying to save Nick downstairs. Both gone,
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  Speaker 1: just like that. And one night the c d C
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  Speaker 1: the Center for Disease Control figures Joe Us released revealed
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and a huge spike and overdose deaths in opioids as
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  Speaker 1: our nation's struggles struggles to control addiction and joining me
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  Speaker 1: right now is that mom? Rebecca Savage also joining me.
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  Speaker 1: Renowned medical examiner from Madison Heights, Dr William Moroney, the
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  Speaker 1: author of a brand new book available on Amazon that
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: every parent should read. American Narcan dealing with this exact problem.
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  Speaker 1: Also joining us is psychologist from New York, Karen Stark.
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  Speaker 1: To all of you, thank you for being with us. First,
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  Speaker 1: to Rebecca Savage joining us, Rebecca, thank you so much
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  Speaker 1: for joining us and sharing your story here on Sirius
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  Speaker 1: x M. Thank you for the invite and for allowing
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: me to share Nick and Jack story with Rebecca. I
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  Speaker 1: know that you have played it over a million times
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  Speaker 1: in your mind, But what happened that evening the evening
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  Speaker 1: you lost your two sons. Well, that evening, actually I
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  Speaker 1: had been at graduation parties with my two older boys,
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  Speaker 1: and um, they were leaving that party that we had
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: attended together to go with friends to another graduation party
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  Speaker 1: and I went home. Um, they did check in with
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  Speaker 1: me when they got home that night, and everything seemed
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to be okay. Um, really, fireworks kind of hit the
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  Speaker 1: next morning, when Sunday morning, I was doing household chores
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  Speaker 1: and had gone in Jack's room to collect some laundry,
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  Speaker 1: and I was talking to him about time to get up,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: you know, as dad had things he needed help with
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  Speaker 1: today and just you know, geoffon last night just kind
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: of having a conversation and I noticed that he didn't respond,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: and me, being a nurse, I went over and I
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  Speaker 1: tried to wake him and he did not respond. And
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  Speaker 1: that's when I went into nurse mo Um and checked
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  Speaker 1: his pulse and UM started to see chair immediately and
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  Speaker 1: called for night, you know, for help. So very difficult morning, Rebecca.
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  Speaker 1: How was that day any different from every other day?
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  Speaker 1: How did they get their hands on drugs? You know,
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  Speaker 1: we've played that back in our minds, UM so many times.
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  Speaker 1: From what we understand is that just half it came
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  Speaker 1: with somebody else who was at the graduation party who
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  Speaker 1: somebody had brought a bottle of pills UM and I
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  Speaker 1: don't know where they had gotten them from. And these
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  Speaker 1: pills are being distributed at this party. UM. Again, like
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  Speaker 1: I've talked to other people about the dangers of that
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  Speaker 1: UM now, but at that point, we hadn't probably had
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  Speaker 1: that conversation with our kids about prescription drugs, because never,
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  Speaker 1: in my mind did it ever occur to me that
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  Speaker 1: they would pills that did not belong to them. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, doctor William Moroney, I agree. I've talked to
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  Speaker 1: the children about drugs and alcohol and UM, although I
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: don't let them listen to our program. I talked about
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  Speaker 1: it in general terms, but I wouldn't imagine talking about
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  Speaker 1: taking prescription pills that belong to somebody else that I
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  Speaker 1: never thought of. That a tremendous problem with um, the
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  Speaker 1: casual nous that teenagers and young adults have shared things
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  Speaker 1: that previous generations did not share. Medicine. This is officially
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  Speaker 1: called diversion. It's against the law, and the doctors are
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  Speaker 1: not counseling patients that they give these dangerous medicines to
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  Speaker 1: to keep them safer. So part of this is on
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  Speaker 1: the medical community not guarding and reducing thing wings. But
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  Speaker 1: I want to take this time to tell Rebecca I'm
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  Speaker 1: so sorry for your loss. Um. I have two children.
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  Speaker 1: I have dedicated my life to stopping drug overdose. I
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  Speaker 1: choose heroin because I think it's tearing us up. But OxyContin, oxycodon, hydrocodon,
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  Speaker 1: opiate overdose deaths are tearing this country part. They are
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  Speaker 1: reshaping the landscape. And I don't think our local governments
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  Speaker 1: are states and our media really understand. The year that
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  Speaker 1: your son's passed, we had fifty two thousand, four hundred
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  Speaker 1: and four drug overdose deaths in America, and we're on
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  Speaker 1: track for seventy to seventy five thousand drug overdose deaths.
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  Speaker 1: Now it is people have been saying it's an epidemic
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  Speaker 1: this year, it's a pandemic. And at the Demmick is
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  Speaker 1: something on the south side of Cincinnati. An epidemic is
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  Speaker 1: in Green Bay, Wisconsin. This is from coast to coast
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  Speaker 1: and not a single family is insulated. In my book,
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  Speaker 1: I tell people what are the risk factors that every
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  Speaker 1: parent should have narcan in their home because now thirty
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  Speaker 1: seven states have narcan friendly laws. And I'm so sorry
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  Speaker 1: that we didn't make the political headway. You know, it
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  Speaker 1: was seemingly a normal day for an Indiana mom. For
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Savage. It was a Sunday morning, June. She got
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  Speaker 1: up that morning and was beginning or day by doing
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  Speaker 1: household chores. Her two older boys, Jack Um he had
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  Speaker 1: graduated just graduated from pan High School, and Nick. They
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  Speaker 1: had gone to parties the night before with their friends.
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  Speaker 1: She went in Jack's room and told me it was
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  Speaker 1: time to get up, just like we all do with children,
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  Speaker 1: except he didn't respond, He didn't turn over, he didn't
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  Speaker 1: say anything, nothing, no response at all. Rebecca, as she
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  Speaker 1: just told you, as a nurse instructor immediately began CPR,
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  Speaker 1: having no idea what was wrong. Nine one one was
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  Speaker 1: called E. M T. S raced to the scene and
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  Speaker 1: tried their very best, She says, she remembers one of
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  Speaker 1: them heading down to the basement at that moment. She
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  Speaker 1: didn't know that friends of Nick, who had stayed overnight
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  Speaker 1: in the basement had also called because Nick two was
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  Speaker 1: unresponsive in the basement. Rebecca loses two of her sons
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  Speaker 1: that day. It ended up that Jack and Nick had
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  Speaker 1: tried tried tested oxy codone at a party the night before,
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  Speaker 1: or both of them overdosed. And with me right now
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  Speaker 1: is Rebecca Savage? Rebecca, it actually hurts me to say
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  Speaker 1: the facts of what happened, knowing that you are listening
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  Speaker 1: and that it could cause you pain. When you think
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  Speaker 1: back on that morning. What goes through your mind? You
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  Speaker 1: know that morning, I just I remember thinking over and
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  Speaker 1: over again, what is going on in my house? What happened? What?
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  Speaker 1: You know, what's going on? I just was searching for answers,
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  Speaker 1: like what could possibly have happened to them? Um? You know,
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  Speaker 1: and everything you know was a blur. I mean when
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  Speaker 1: I heard them call for a corner. That's probably about
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  Speaker 1: the last real thing that I remember that day. Um.
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  Speaker 1: But it's just a bunch of confusion and you know,
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  Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened. I mean, it's just
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  Speaker 1: it is just unbelievable. What do you mean when you
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  Speaker 1: say you can't remember exactly what happened? Well, I think
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  Speaker 1: you know you're in a you're in a mindset where you, um,
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  Speaker 1: you're just in um, your mode where you're trying to
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  Speaker 1: figure out what's happening and take care of your kids.
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  Speaker 1: You just go into nurse mode. And you know, after
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  Speaker 1: they had called for a corner and I realized that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, at least one of them had passed away,
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  Speaker 1: I think you're just in a state of shock, and
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  Speaker 1: you really, you know, everything else that happens after that,
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  Speaker 1: you're just numb. I mean, well, let me ask you this.
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  Speaker 1: When you say the coroner told the coroner told you
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  Speaker 1: that one of them passed away, how did that try
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  Speaker 1: went upstairs? Um? And I had one of the first
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  Speaker 1: responders had left Jack and was heading to the basement, um,
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  Speaker 1: which I didn't know for what reason. And I remember
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  Speaker 1: yelling at him, you know, don't give up on Jack.
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  Speaker 1: He's a fighter, you know screen, you know, where are
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  Speaker 1: you going? And um, when they came out of the basement,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: he I had heard somebody say something about we need
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  Speaker 1: to call the corner. And I had a police officer
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  Speaker 1: with me that morning, just you know, trying to keep
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  Speaker 1: me calm, and I was screaming at him. Did he
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  Speaker 1: just call for a corner? And I just he's like, yes,
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  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, And I'm like, what is going on?
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  Speaker 1: You know who's for And he's like, I'm sorry. It
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  Speaker 1: was from Nick. And that is just you just you
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  Speaker 1: can't believe it. It's just I still sometimes I think
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  Speaker 1: it's not real. You know, it's just hard to comprehend that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, Rebecca, it takes me back to when I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: realized my fiance was dead. It was right before a wedding,
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  Speaker 1: just before a wedding, and I had been taking an
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  Speaker 1: exam that day and was leaving and heading to my
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  Speaker 1: job at the library. And I called the library to
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  Speaker 1: tell them I was walking to work and I was
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: going to be about ten or fifteen minut It's like
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: because the test went long, and they told me to
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  Speaker 1: call Keith's family and I knew right then. I think
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  Speaker 1: I knew then that he was dead. I called them
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  Speaker 1: and I asked one question, is Keith gone? And they
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  Speaker 1: said yes, and I dropped the phone. It was a
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  Speaker 1: pay phone, and I headed out and I had nowhere
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  Speaker 1: to go, and in route home, I saw cars part
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  Speaker 1: outside our local church. I went in. I hardly remember this,
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  Speaker 1: and my pastor called somebody and I saw him right.
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  Speaker 1: I was on the other side of his desk and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I saw him right. It was upside down Bernstein Funeral Home,
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  Speaker 1: and that's when I really realized that Keith was dead.
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  Speaker 1: When you say you heard them say they're calling the coroner,
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  Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine that happening to my child. I'm
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  Speaker 1: just trying to take in what you're saying right now.
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  Speaker 1: Where were you when that? So upstairs outside um Jack's
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  Speaker 1: room and um we had an open four yeer and
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  Speaker 1: our basement then went down from there and I had
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  Speaker 1: heard him come up and that's when he had said it.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So I was upstairs and I just remember, you know,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: you're thinking to yourself, this isn't that real. This cannot
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: really be happening, especially when I didn't know what had happened,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: why they were in the situation they were in, you
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: know was it? You know, I didn't know what was
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: going on. So it's just the constant state of confusion
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: of what is happening to your kids. Dr William Moroney
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: is with me, medical examiner and author of madisone Heights.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: His new book American Narcan available on Amazon now. Also
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: with me, Karen Stark, psychologists out of New York. First you,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, why is it that people seem to think
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: less of taking a pill then they would um doing
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: a line of coke or snorting crack or you know,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: using heroin. Why do we think why is the common
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: misconception that it's okay to take problem starts with the
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: origin of the pill. As it's diverted outside of the
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: medical system, the pills continue to bring this idea that
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: it's safe because it's still medicine, but it's being misused.
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  Speaker 1: But it started out as medicine made by a company,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: prescribed by a doctor, and that brings an unnecessary um gravitas.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: It says this is safe, whereas clandestine drugs imported from
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: other countries, they go through Turkey or China or Thailand. People,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: that's dangerous. Oh, you can't do. But so there's this
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: safe idea. That's a misperception that comes from drugs like this,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: but they're every bit is deadly as heroin Karen Stark.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: We hear Rebecca saying that it all seems that blurred
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: to her. She can't even really remember what happened. The
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: same thing happened to me. Why is that? What is that?
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Because you're going through trauma. And by the way, Rebecca,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I know that my words really can't make a huge difference,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: but I do want you to know that this is terrible.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I am so sorry that you would lose two children.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Just terrible, Nancy. As we discussed, even with you, you're
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: going through trauma, and when that happens, you disassociate. You're
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: not really in the moment. You can't really perceive what's happening.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: It does feel like it's not real. There's too much
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to take into your brain can't deal with it, and
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: so you are sort of going through slow motion. That's
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: what it feels like, that nothing that you're doing is
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: a conscious activity. Like you said, you wound up at
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the church, you wound up with the pastor you don't
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: even know how it happened. And that's the state that
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: people wind up being in when confronted with that kind
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: of a situation. I'm talking to a mom, Rebecca Savage,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: who loses two boys the same day after they experiment
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: at a graduation party for friends with opioid with OxyContin
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: also with me. In addition to Rebecca sharing her story,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney, renowed medical examiner out of Madison Heights,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: author of a new book, American Narcan, now available on Amazon,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: and my friend and colleague Karen Stark, psychologists out of
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: New York. You know, Rebecca, as you were describing what
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: happened and how surreal it felt. Um, I think I've
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: told Karen start this story before. When it was Keith's funeral.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I remember going in and it's just a sickening smell
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: of carnations of like fake flowers, which to this day
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I can't stand a smell. And at a distance, I
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: saw just a portion of Keith's profile in the casket
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and I passed out right there in the foyer of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the funeral home. I just cannot imagine, Rebecca, how you
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: got through the funeral. I don't know how you did it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Can you even remember it bits and pieces? Um? It
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: was extremely difficult, obviously, especially you know, the first time
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: we saw the boys before the funeral um with our
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: other two kids, it was extremely difficult. Um. Yeah, you
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: remember bits and pieces of it. My husband, you know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: he when you said you passed out, I mean he
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: he passed out when I when he came home because
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: he had been away with our other two younger kids,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: and and I met him at the door and I
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: told him that they were gone. You know, he he
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: passed out. I mean he just was overwhelmed with grief.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just overwhelming. I'm just trying to imagine
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: that moment. Rebecca. I'm I'm just so sorry what you
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: and your family have been through. I'm just I'm just
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: heartsick about it. What what do you believe? What pilled
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: do you think they got a hold of at the
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: graduation party? Well, I think it was oxy code om
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: um and it I don't know who it was prescribed to.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I just heard bits and pieces that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: um it was there was a somebody there passing out pills.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: And from my understanding, there were a couple of other
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: kids at that party that needed medical attention, um, that
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: had also experimented with that medication. Dr Moroney how can that?
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: They were they bad pills? Did they take too many?
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: How could that happen? Arguing more susceptible if it's your
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: first time ever even trying it. Well, there's two things.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Number One, these young men were naive. They were not
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: regular opiate users, so they were not they were not
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: tolerant or dependent. So the naive to the first dose.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And then if they got an extended release product, the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: person who was out there diverting the drugs, if they
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: got an extended release, well the full effect into happened.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: The full peak dose level wasn't released for five six
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: sevent eight hours, maybe nine hours later, And that's why
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: they were able. They took the medicine, they made the decision,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and then the drug didn't hit them until later. Because
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that's what an extended drug does, to last the last
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: twelve hours at a time, so that the strength increases
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: over time. Is that what you're saying. More of the
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: drug is released so that when it's used for pain management,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: it'll last twelve hours. It's it's in The drug doesn't
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: get released all at once, slowly reaches the peak at
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: five six seven eight hours, and that's when it hits
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: peak and that's when they overdosed. What we need to
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: do is to talk to our children and have that
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: critical conversation, and then when they come and go, we
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: we need to say, well, what did you do and
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and and who did who did you see? And if
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: you have thirty seven out of fifty states have the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: lock zonne friendly laws so that we can get the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: the lock zone into the homes. And then when you're
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: kids come home. You know, usually with overdoses like this,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: kids snore. The mothers I have they had children that overdose.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: They said, you know, they sounded really tired. They snore.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Checked on your kids when they come home from parties.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: And if they're snoring and they're hard to arouse, you
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: have the locks on in the home. You blowed up
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: their nose and call. Seventy seven percent of overdose deaths
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: are unintentional. The people they didn't mean to do this,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: that they took some pills at a party, people were
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: trying to get high, But seventy are unintentional. So we
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: really need to keep guarding our children. And um, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: my my book is a passionate call to arms against
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the opiates that are sweeping across the country. The prescription
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: opiates that are diverted, and the fentanel and the heroines
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: because our systems are paralyzed. The medical schools and the
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: hospitals are really not helping us with the prevention. And
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: let me ask you, Dr Moroney's OxyContin, the same thing
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: is oxy codon. Oxycodone is the generic version of the drug.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: The molecule is oxycodon. Oxy content is the extended release.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: That's the one that you take in at last twelve
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: hours because it's slowly released. So that's my bet because
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: that's in the two thou fifteen, that's what a lot
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: of the doctors were prescribing. Rebecca. When you're hearing all
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: this discussion, I mean, it must seem so surreal to you.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Up until that night. Did they went to the graduation party?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Did you have any idea? Had they ever been in
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: trouble before? Never? What were they like? Um? They were
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: smart kids and popular kids, UM, athletic kids, UM kids
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: who did you know? Community service? Um? We're involved in
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: their school and worked in guidance you know, the guidance
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: UM office at their school. And that's why when I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: found doubt what they had taken, it was so shocking
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: because never had they ever been in trouble for drinking,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: you know, drugs an things. I mean, I don't even
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: think in either one of them even got a speeding ticket.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: You know, they were just kids that followed the rules,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately that night they succumbed to pure pressure and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: tried something they shouldn't have and paid the ultimate price.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: What were their personalities? What were they like? Um? Jack
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: was real, UM, outgoing, UM, fun, a lot of fun. UM.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: He always had a smile on his face and it
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: was always a crooked smile. He he had a crooked
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: smile and he smiled and UM, never knew a stranger.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Just was very very friendly. Nick was a lot had
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: the same, you know, a lot of the same personalities
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that Jack did. UM. More quiet and reserved, UM, but
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you know, still adventurous. UM. You know, they had a
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: lot of the same uh likes and life. UM hockey
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: obviously they both loved hockey and water sports and hanging
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: out with friends. And the two of them were, you know,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: probably best friends. UM. So they did a lot of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: things together. Do you believe they I mean, I'm sure
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: you've asked and tried to investigate and find out what
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: happened at the party. Do you think that they did
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: succumbed to pure pressure or do you think somebody slipped
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: it in their drink? What do you think happened? You know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, I would hate to think somebody
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: would flip it into their drink. Um, But I don't.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm you know, it's kind of something
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: that isn't readily talked about. You know. Unfortunately, a lot
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of the kids, you know, don't want to be a
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: snitch or nark and you know, kind of say what
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: had happened, So we really still kind of had that
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: clouded version of what may have happened that night. You know,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I'm looking right now at the picture of you, Rebecca
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: and Jack and Nick um. Nick is standing right beside
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: you and Jack right beside him. I can't tell what
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: this is in the background, but it looks like maybe
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: we were at a concert actually in Indianapolis. They were fun,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: like I thought, they like to do fun things, So
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: that was, Um, we're down in Indianapolis for our concert.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: They are so precious, They're just they're just gorgeous. One
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: was headed to Indiana's Ball State University in the fall
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: and you said that Jack never met anybody he didn't
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: like anybody has had that crooked smile on his face,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and he just loved being with his friends. And Nick
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: was more quiet and reserved and very calm. He had
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: just finished his freshman year at Indiana State University where
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: he was studying microbiology and chemistry. They loved hockey, and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: they were very similar because they were so close in age.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking at your your beautiful family. What effect
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: has this had on your family? Rebecca, Well, it's been devastating, UM,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But you know, you just go into protective mom mode.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And my focus, you know, obviously was to protect my
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: younger too, you know, UM, and to make sure that
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: they get through this and not suffer UM as a
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: result of what happened to Nick and Jack. Um. You know,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I kind of I feel like I live in a
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: constant state of anxiety, UM, because I'm so fearful that
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: something may happen to one of them, you know, whether
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it be you know, a car accident or oh, Rebecca, Rebecca,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I do that too. I UM, I am so convinced,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you know, after Keith was murdered, I'm constantly can ants
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: that something is going to take the twins away from me,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: because you know, for so many years, I just couldn't
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: even let myself. Whenever I even try to say wedding,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I would say funeral. And when I would try to
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: say funeral, I would say wedding. And I tried not
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: to do it anymore, and I kept doing it. And
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: do you know, over twenty years past and before I
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: could let myself even consider loving and and and having
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: a family. And now that I do have the twins,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I'm constantly afraid somebody is going to take them away.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Something's going to happen to them, Something's gonna happen to
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: my husband. It's just hearing you say that. How do
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you find yourself being overprotective of your other children. I'm
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: constantly checking in with them. I just sent my Justin
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: off to college, and that was, you know, extremely difficult.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: You know, you still want him to experience college and
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: have fun. But yet you know, I couldn't stress enough,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: you know, like, you know how much we love him
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and how important it is to make good choices and
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to be a good friend. And you know, I think
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: we've talked about it so much now that he just
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: you know, as we're in the car, he grabbed my
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: farm and he's your mom. I know, I get it, Mom,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: I get it. So, you know, with him, it's just
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: a constant conversation. And with my youngest one it's the
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: same kind of conversations, you know, but I asked more questions,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: you know, like so, what friends were at at the
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: house you were at, you know, and with their mom
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: and dad home, and what you guys do, and you know,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: just kind of more in depth, um questions. UM with them,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: try not to be I mean, Rebecca, when I'm looking,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at a picture of your whole family right now,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: and it looks like you're an ad for now I'm
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: looking at the picture of you guys at the beach,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: you look like an ad for like j Crew or
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Brooks Brothers, Brooks Brothers. I mean, it's just it looks
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: like this perfect family, you know. I was talking to
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: a mom the other day whose son was murdered, a
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: little boy, Chucky Mok. And she said that when people
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: find out her son was murdered by a stranger, they
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: treat her differently, like she's a bad mom, like their
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: family must be don't different somehow because of violence. When
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: people find out your boys died from drugs, do they
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, look down on that. What's been your reaction.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I think when people find out like they don't want
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: to talk about it, it's kind of like the elephant
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: in the room. And I think, you know, we're more
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: like we want to talk about it because it keeps
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: their memory alive. I mean, they were and they still
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: are our sons, um and they made a bad choice.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: And I feel like the more we do talk about it,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: then the more um life, maybe that we can save more.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe somebody else will start talking about it more because
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: we're talking about it. Well, actually, after listening to you
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: and Dr Maroney and Karen Stark, I know that now,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: even at this young age, I need to mention to
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: the twins about it's about pills, actual pills. I mean,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I was telling Dr Maroney, I just had knee surgery
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: a while back, and the doctor sent home um he
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: didn't send homes and picked up at the pharmacy. I
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: think it was oxycont I can't even remember anymore. And
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I was so freaked out about having it in the house.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: I made David flush it down the commode. We had
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: two prescriptions flushed him both I don't know what the
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: other one was. We flushed him both down the commode
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: through away the bottle. I just was so nutted up
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: about the whole thing. It's funny how people won't even
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: bring it up to you, Rebecca. Maybe they're afraid that
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: they'll upset you. I think so. Um, I think I
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: think you're right about that. Like, it's kind of hard
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: to talk about that especially. Um, it was such a
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: tragic event. Um. And it still hurts. You know, it's
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: still um recently, you know, it's still hurts. I think
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: it will always hurt. It will. Um. I tell you know,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: parents that conversations have to be had. You know, you
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: have to talk about it and bring it to the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: forefront and um let them, I mean, start to those conversations. Yeah,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: it's it's not an easy thing. It's not an easy thing,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: but it's part of being a good parent. Two. Dr
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: William Roney joining us, author of a new book, American
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Narcan that deals with this exact topic. OxyContin oxycodone. Now
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: this is a yes no. Dr Maroney. Are they opioid derivatives? Yes? Okay,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: wait wait wait I'm working up with something. This is
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: also a yes no heroin is an opioid derivative. Correct,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: and heroin comes from poppies. Correct, heroin comes from poppies,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: but there's some chemical actions to the natural product to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: make the heroine. All right, this is what I'm getting at.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I I've told you this before. I always think of
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: that scene where Dorothy is walking through the big poppy
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: field and they get sleepy and the witch has put
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: a spell on her and she falls asleep. It's actually
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the poppies. Anyway. People don't connect that OxyContin and oxy
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: code O our cousins to heroin. And I I remember
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Karen Stark. My husband came home and he was crying,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: what is wrong. David and a friend of his that
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: he had worked with a long time had a son,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: the Golden Boy. And I mean that in a good way.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm I want to say, a track star
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and straight. A student got involved with heroin and accidentally
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: overdosed and died, and they had sent him to one
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: of those boot camps to try to save him. And
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: he came back. He seemed totally clean, everything was fine,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: back on track. He tried it one more time and
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: o'deed and died and the father was just numb. I
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: don't know how you deal with that kind of lost. Karen, Well,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: it never really goes away, as I said to Rebecca.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: But what Rebecca and her family are doing, that's the
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: best thing that you could possibly do. Is to go
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: out there, talk about it, try and do something proactive
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: to prevent it from happening to other children, and to
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: educate people that this is not aspirin, This is not
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: a could. These are the same and have the same
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: effect as if you were doing heroine or any other
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: kind of um painkiller. You know, another aspect to it,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Kieren Stark Um, Rebecca, I want to throw this to you.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Savage joining us. She lost two beautiful boys because
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: of one night at a graduation party where they succumbed
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: to pure pressure and try some pills. According to Dr
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Moroney's analysis, the pills were time activated and the oxyconton
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: didn't kick in until the wee hours, and they both
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: died in one day. Rebecca, I didn't realize it at
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: the time, but I realize it now. When you say
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: my fiancee was murdered, When you say my son's died,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: uh a drug overdose and somehow puts you in a
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: different category. People look at you differently. It's like, well,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: what were they doing wrong? Why did that happen to you?
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: This wouldn't happen to a normal family. That's not true.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know I'm talking over the radio, but
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: if you could see Rebecca's family, I swear they look
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: like they're out of an ad. We're not different. We're
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: like everybody else. What everybody does else doesn't get is
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: it can happen to you. I don't care if you've
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: got a grad degree from Harvard or you're a millionaire.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. This type of tragedy happens across the boards. Rebecca. Yes,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: and that's when I go and I talk to people.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to get across is that we're
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: just normal people. I mean, we're just average people are
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: with good kids who made a bad choice, and that
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: this problem can touch anybody. It's not stereotypical. It can
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: affect anybody family. So for anyone to say it can't
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: happen to me, that is a dangerous statement to make,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: because it can happen to you and happy today, Rebecca,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: do you feel that either of the boys have tried
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to communicate with you since they passed on. Um, I
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: do I you know, you know that's just my own belief. Um.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: You know, like special things, you know, dreams or you know,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: a cardinal here there. You know, you just you see
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: certain things and that you think, you know, maybe that
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: it's just them. Um, I do know, and I do
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: feel like they would be proud of the efforts that
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: that we're putting forth to hopefully save somebody else with life. Um.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And like you know, I've told people before, I can't
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: even think that their story ended the way it did
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: on June. I'm a girl who likes happy endings and
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: stories and books and movies, and I just I'm going
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: to do my darnedist to make sure their story ends
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: in a positive note where somebody, maybe it's life was
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: safe because of hearing their tragic story. That's Michael Rebecca.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I've got to tell you how much you are inspiring me.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I just can't imagine the suffering in the
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: heartbreak that you and your husband went through. To Dr
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: William Moroney, what is the message to parents listening right now?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Right now? The messages our medical system created part of
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: this problem with lax prescribing and hospitals are paralyzed, medical
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: schools are out of touch, and the lawmakers about five
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: years behind. Every home needs the locks zone Nasal narcans
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: ray injectable in the locks on every home, just like
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: an EpiPen, just like peanut allergies. And my book helps
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: you show that the data in America is driving this
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: problem to become more common than it should be. I've
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: given a passionate call to arms against this death storm
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: sweeping across America. It's not an epidemic, it's a pandemic.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: It's in Canada, it's in Costa Rica, it's in Europe.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: This is happening everywhere, and I share her pain. But
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: this is happening in every state in America, and we
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: need to educate people, and the systems we used to
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: educate have failed us. That's why I put a book
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: out so that people can get it and see that
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: more people are at risk than you're comfortable sleeping with
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: every night. To you, Karen Stark, what is the message?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: The message is to be very aware of what's going
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: on with your children, to have open discussions and to
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: look for signs that there's some kind of change in
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: their behavior. To all of a sudden notice. You know,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: if you notice that you're happy, go lucky, child has
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: become extremely moody or shut themselves off with their concentrations,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: is not the same if their grades have changed, and
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: you really have to be vigilant when it comes to
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: that to notice those kinds of details, not to be
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: afraid to talk about it, not to be afraid to
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: explain that this is very different than if you're taking
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: an aspirint. Not to combine alcohol with any kind of
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: a drug. To keep that conversation going all the time.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Rebecca Savages Facebook is five to five foundation. Rebecca, tell
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: me what your message is to all the parents listening
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: right now. My message is um to have those conversations
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: and to not tell our kids all the time what
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: they can't do. You can't do drugs, you can't do alcohol,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you can't do this, but to arm them with things
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: that they can do, because we as parents know that
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: our kids are going to be faced with some of
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: these issues at some point. It's just a matter of time.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: So we need to arm them with avenues of things
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: that they can do when they are approached with something
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: like this, letting them know that it's okay to go
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: against the grain of peer pressure and you know to
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: say no. UM. I'm also having a real, a big
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: push on cleaning out those medicine cabinets. If you have
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: an unused prescription or an expired prescription, to get it
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: out of your house, UM and dispose of them properly.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: And if you do have the need for the medication
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: in your house, make sure that you know where it's
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: at and keep it safeguarded so that it doesn't come
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: up missing. UM. Just simple things that we all can do,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: UM to help fight this issue that we're having in
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: our community. Rebecca Savage is with us. And Rebecca, you
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: just said that you love a happy ending and that
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: you you can't believe, you can't accept that their story
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: is over, that it ended that day in June. Or
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I want to tell you Nick and Jack's story is
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: not over. So help me God, their story is going on.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Thanks to you. Thank you, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: goodbye friend.