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What our top guests reveal about the reality of the U.S. immigration crackdown · This Week On ICE

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SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to This Week on Ice, folks.
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SPEAKER_00: Matt here.
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SPEAKER_00: I am on the road this week to celebrate my brother's wedding and,
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SPEAKER_00: as a result,
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SPEAKER_00: can't record a regular episode.
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SPEAKER_00: So instead,
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we're going to bring you the best of the insightful guests
0:19
we've had on to fill the
0:20
SPEAKER_00: gap.
0:21
And we're going to come back with plenty of fresh material for
0:23
you very soon.
0:25
Please do send us any questions that come up while we're out at
0:28
thisweekonice at gmail.com.
0:30
We're looking forward to diving into them when we're back in
0:32
the regular rotation.
0:34
And in the meantime,
0:35
please enjoy the best of the guests and a brief update from
0:39
Kelly.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: Over the weekend,
0:44
Costa Rica received the first group of migrants from other
0:46
countries deported from
0:47
SPEAKER_02: the United States.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: So far,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: the Trump administration has sent 15,000 people to third country nations,
0:53
SPEAKER_02: with more still to come.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: On Thursday,
0:56
an appeals court ordered a federal judge to end his
0:58
investigation into probable
1:00
SPEAKER_02: criminal contempt by U.S.
1:01
officials who deported Venezuelan immigrants to El Salvador's
1:04
Seacott Mega Prison
1:05
SPEAKER_02: last year.
1:09
Lee Jellert,
1:10
the ACLU's lead attorney,
1:11
called the ruling a blow to the rule of law.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: On Wednesday,
1:18
SPEAKER_02: in a court declaration,
1:19
immigration lawyer Catherine Blackenship said some detainees at
1:22
Alligator Alcatraz
1:23
SPEAKER_02: were taunted,
1:24
SPEAKER_02: threatened,
1:25
SPEAKER_02: then beaten and pepper sprayed by ICE agents.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: Phone services,
1:28
SPEAKER_02: which are legally required to be available to detainees 24-7,
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SPEAKER_02: were cut off the day these alleged beatings occurred.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Also on Wednesday,
1:36
Mexican President Claudia Steinbaum ordered Mexican diplomats
1:39
to step up scrutiny
1:40
SPEAKER_02: of U.S.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: detention centers by conducting visits by consular personnel following an
1:45
escalation of deaths of Mexican citizens caught up in Trump's
1:48
mass deportation
1:49
SPEAKER_02: agenda.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: On Thursday,
1:52
SPEAKER_02: for the first time,
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Minnesota authorities have charged an ICE agent with a felony
1:57
following Operation
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Metro Surge.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: The officer,
2:00
SPEAKER_02: Gregory Donald Morgan Jr.,
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was charged with two counts of second-degree assault with a
2:04
dangerous weapon for
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SPEAKER_02: pointing a gun at two civilians in the car.
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SPEAKER_02: Also on Thursday,
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the House passed legislation to extend temporary protected
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status for Haitians,
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SPEAKER_02: preventing them from legal limbo for now.
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SPEAKER_02: The bill is now up to vote in the Senate,
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SPEAKER_02: and should it pass,
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it would require the Homeland Security Secretary to designate
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Haiti for TPS for
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SPEAKER_02: three years.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Also this week, ICE reported the 16th immigrant detainee death this year.
2:33
By comparison,
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last year it announced 33 deaths,
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the most in more than two decades.
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SPEAKER_02: In the entirety of 2024, there were 11.
2:42
An NBC investigation released Wednesday detailed that ICE has
2:45
quietly reduced what
2:46
SPEAKER_02: details about these deaths are made public.
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SPEAKER_02: Now, on to the best of our guests.
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SPEAKER_02: Stick with us.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: David Beer is the director of immigration studies at the Cato Institute,
3:00
SPEAKER_00: a libertarian think tank based in Washington,
3:02
SPEAKER_00: D.C.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: His work has appeared in The New York Times,
3:05
SPEAKER_00: The Washington Post,
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SPEAKER_00: PBS and many other top journalistic outlets.
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SPEAKER_00: He's also been cited in the U.S.
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Supreme Court and testified in front of both houses of Congress
3:14
multiple times.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: David, thank you so much for being here and welcome to This Week on Ice.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
3:20
You and your colleagues at Cato are just out with a study on
3:23
the fiscal effects of
3:24
SPEAKER_00: migration that I found really interesting.
3:27
Could you tell us a little bit about your top line findings and
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how you reach them?
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SPEAKER_03: Overall,
3:32
SPEAKER_03: we found that over the last 30 years,
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SPEAKER_03: immigrants of all types,
3:37
SPEAKER_03: legal and illegal,
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SPEAKER_03: have reduced the deficits at the federal,
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SPEAKER_03: state and local level by about 14 and a half.
3:46
SPEAKER_03: trillion.
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SPEAKER_03: So if you break that down,
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we found that the illegal immigrants reduced deficits by about
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$1.7 trillion,
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SPEAKER_03: the remainder being for legal immigrants.
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SPEAKER_03: And if you look at just low-skilled immigrants,
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SPEAKER_03: meaning anyone without a college degree,
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SPEAKER_03: they also reduced deficits by over $2 trillion.
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SPEAKER_03: If you look at everything that the government spends its money on,
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SPEAKER_03: the biggest portion of it is essentially the fixed costs of government.
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SPEAKER_03: Basically, interest payments on past debt.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: So if a new person comes, they don't increase the past debt.
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SPEAKER_03: We'd still have to cover the payments on that.
4:27
SPEAKER_03: And also the military.
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SPEAKER_03: And if you exclude those two items,
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then you end up seeing a better picture of how does the budget
4:36
actually change when
4:37
SPEAKER_03: you have another additional person enter society.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: And on average, when you add a new person,
4:43
SPEAKER_03: and they're actually reducing the deficit.
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So population growth,
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new people,
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it's a good thing whether immigrants or not.
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SPEAKER_03: It helps with the deficit problem.
4:53
Now on the benefit side,
4:55
the big savings are on elderly benefits or retiree benefits.
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SPEAKER_03: These are essentially three things, Social Security,
5:04
SPEAKER_03: Medicare and public pensions.
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Immigrants work for the government at fairly low rates compared
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to their share of
5:13
SPEAKER_03: the population,
5:13
SPEAKER_03: so they don't get much in terms of public pensions.
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They are often ineligible for both Medicare and Social Security
5:23
because of their legal status.
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SPEAKER_03: And on top of that, you have people who arrive after their working career
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and you have to have a certain working history in order to
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qualify for Social Security.
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SPEAKER_03: And on the welfare side, they're about average.
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SPEAKER_03: Even though they're much more likely to be in poverty,
5:40
SPEAKER_03: there's,
5:41
SPEAKER_03: again,
5:41
these status restrictions for illegal immigrants and recent
5:45
arrivals that means
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that their benefits use is going to be lower than what it would
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otherwise be.
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SPEAKER_02: Critics of migration often say, and to paraphrase President Trump,
5:55
SPEAKER_02: that other countries aren't sending their best.
5:58
And yet your study found that even immigrants with low levels
6:01
of education
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SPEAKER_02: contributed nearly $3 trillion in fiscal surplus.
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What do your findings tell us about the role immigrants play in
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this economy and
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SPEAKER_02: American society?
6:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_03: first of all,
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SPEAKER_03: many of these people are the most entrepreneurial in their societies and,
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SPEAKER_03: you know,
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SPEAKER_03: they're being oppressed by poor governance.
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SPEAKER_03: And when they get here, they can actually make the most of their life.
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SPEAKER_03: And so what we see is when people move,
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SPEAKER_03: their productivity increases dramatically by coming to the United States.
6:31
And I think the lesson here is that having a better immigration
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system where more
6:36
SPEAKER_03: people can move to the United States
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SPEAKER_03: really expands the productivity of the world.
6:43
and gives people an opportunity to contribute not just to
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American society,
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SPEAKER_03: but to the world economy as well.
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When someone moves from a poor place like Haiti and they move
6:55
to the United States,
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they ultimately make about 10 times as much doing the same type
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of work because of
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the institutions and capital and technology in the United
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States that enables them
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SPEAKER_03: to be so much more productive.
7:12
So I'm curious if you found any data that could help us
7:15
understand how the Trump
7:16
administration's crackdown right now on immigrants will impact
7:20
long-term prospects.
7:22
This administration has already essentially eliminated new
7:26
illegal immigration flows.
7:27
And so all of it's going to come from the legal immigration
7:30
system right now.
7:31
And a majority of all legal immigrants to the United States
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have been banned by
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SPEAKER_03: executive order by this administration.
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SPEAKER_03: The result of that is going to be a declining
7:44
workforce and even total population is likely to decline as a
7:49
result of these
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SPEAKER_03: really draconian restrictions on inflows as well as deportation.
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SPEAKER_03: So our estimate is it's about 1.7 trillion
7:58
over the last 30 years for the illegal immigrant population in
8:02
the United States.
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SPEAKER_03: But all of these numbers,
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SPEAKER_03: these are the lower bound,
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like these are the minimum most conservative estimate because
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we're not taking into
8:11
SPEAKER_03: account how much immigrants increase the productivity
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SPEAKER_03: of the U.S. workforce.
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SPEAKER_03: So just to give you an example,
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the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the illegal
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immigrant flow over the
8:25
Biden years would reduce deficits by about a trillion dollars
8:30
over 10 years.
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And a third of that would come from increases in productivity
8:37
of the U.S.
8:38
born workforce.
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The fact that you have low skilled immigrants coming in and
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doing some of the
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SPEAKER_03: toughest,
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most manual labor intensive jobs allows Americans to specialize
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in higher paid
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SPEAKER_03: positions within those industries.
8:52
SPEAKER_03: So if we got rid of the immigrants,
8:54
SPEAKER_03: then the U.S.
8:55
born workers would stop doing their more productive jobs and
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have to do these other
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SPEAKER_03: jobs.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: You know,
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I was really interested when you said that this stop of
9:04
migration flows could even
9:06
SPEAKER_00: lead to population decline.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I started my career in China and South Korea,
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SPEAKER_00: two countries that have enormous problems with population decline.
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SPEAKER_00: Are we embracing a massive problem that people in China,
9:17
SPEAKER_00: South Korea,
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SPEAKER_00: Japan have been trying to find a solution for for 30 years?
9:21
SPEAKER_03: It's an enormous problem, a massive problem.
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SPEAKER_03: If you look at just what we're facing within the next decade,
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Social Security says we need about 34 million additional
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workers to keep revenues
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SPEAKER_03: equal to expenses in that system.
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SPEAKER_03: and immigrants are certainly part of the solution.
9:40
SPEAKER_03: There's no way to avoid it entirely,
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but immigrants make the problem a little bit less severe than
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it would otherwise
9:47
SPEAKER_03: be.
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SPEAKER_03: And so by keeping out immigrants,
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SPEAKER_03: not redesigning a better legal immigration system and deporting people,
9:55
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
9:55
SPEAKER_03: we could see net negative population growth over the next three years.
10:00
And we likely have already hit that point given the amount of
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deportations and how low
10:06
SPEAKER_03: illegal immigration is,
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we're heading to negative territory quite rapidly under this
10:11
administration.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, David.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate you.
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SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week on ICE.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm your co-host, Kelly Kimball.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: And with us, we have a very special guest, Robin Nice.
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SPEAKER_02: She is an attorney and partner at McAfee and Nice based in Boston,
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SPEAKER_02: Massachusetts,
10:32
SPEAKER_02: where she represents clients who have been detained by ICE.
10:35
She recently facilitated a marriage for one of her clients
10:39
within an ICE detention facility.
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SPEAKER_02: And she's here now to tell us that story.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: Robin, welcome to the show.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: We'd love to know.
10:46
Tell us about this case,
10:48
the scope of your work,
10:49
and what it took to make this marriage happen.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: I initially represented the female client in her own asylum case,
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SPEAKER_01: and she's also fighting deportation through asylum and immigration court.
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And then I got a call from her one day saying,
11:04
my longtime boyfriend was picked up by ICE.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: And can you help?
11:08
SPEAKER_01: And we say yes in those situations.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And so
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SPEAKER_01: We filed a request for him to be released on immigration bond.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: We filed a request for him to be released through the habeas process,
11:19
all the sort of standard stuff that we do to try to get someone
11:21
to stay in the
11:22
SPEAKER_01: United States and ideally just get released.
11:25
We ended up getting an order for him to have a bond hearing
11:27
with immigration court,
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SPEAKER_01: but that was denied.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: So anyways, he stayed detained.
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We're trying to get him and his wife together because the wife
11:36
has a really good asylum claim.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: His asylum claim is a little more challenging.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: And if you can get them married,
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SPEAKER_01: then we can try to speed up her case and he can get status through her.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Even if he gets deported, you'd be able to come back.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime,
11:51
SPEAKER_01: because he stayed detained,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: he ended up taking what's called a voluntary departure,
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SPEAKER_01: which means he's allowed to leave on his own,
12:00
SPEAKER_01: but from detention,
12:02
SPEAKER_01: which is still not great.
12:04
It doesn't mean you get to get released and settle your affairs
12:07
or say goodbye.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: And in the meantime,
12:09
SPEAKER_01: he's been transferred to a kind of a processing center in Texas,
12:14
SPEAKER_01: which is just awful.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: And he's been there for about two.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Well,
12:18
SPEAKER_01: in total,
12:19
he's been there for about two weeks since he was granted
12:21
voluntary departure
12:22
SPEAKER_01: because we're just trying to coordinate the freaking thing.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Don't make it easy.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: It's really sad because his wife,
12:28
SPEAKER_01: one of her main questions was,
12:30
SPEAKER_01: will I get to see him before he leaves?
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Can I meet him at the airport?
12:34
SPEAKER_01: And we're trying to see if we could even get her a ticket for the flight.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: or a flight without necessarily intending for her to travel.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: But before we could do any of that, he just got transferred to Texas.
12:45
Could you tell us exactly how you were able to convince ICE to
12:52
allow this to happen?
12:53
SPEAKER_00: What was the process there?
12:55
Yeah,
12:56
it's a lot of banging your head against the wall sometimes,
12:59
literally.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: There's no guidance on this.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And every detention center is different.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Every...
13:05
Administration changes the rules and there's multiple layers of
13:09
people you have to go through.
13:11
We tried the regular just request to the Boston Enforcement and
13:15
Removal Operations
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Unit,
13:17
which is housed at the now I think somewhat infamous Burlington
13:20
Mass Field Office.
13:21
They didn't respond,
13:22
they didn't respond,
13:23
they didn't respond for like days if not weeks.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: There's also no way to call them.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: There is a phone number posted on their website.
13:30
But if you call,
13:31
it just replays a recorded message about the office location
13:34
and that hangs up.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: And then I tried reaching out to ICE through our liaison.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: So the American Immigration Lawyers Association or AILA,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: we have chapters all over the country in our New England chapter.
13:47
We have prided ourselves on always doing a really good job of
13:50
maintaining those
13:51
SPEAKER_01: human connections,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: regardless of who's in the White House.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I reached out through them.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: And after a while, they were able to get some information to me.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
14:00
I was also asking a senator's office to get involved to see if
14:03
they could push it
14:03
SPEAKER_01: along.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: So around the same day,
14:06
I got an email from the senator's office saying they said
14:09
they're going to look
14:10
SPEAKER_01: into it and they'll get back to you.
14:11
And then I get another email from our liaison saying they said
14:15
they're going to
14:15
SPEAKER_01: look into it and get back to you.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if it's coincidence, but I don't believe it is.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: The next day,
14:22
SPEAKER_01: I get a call like around 7 or 8 p.m.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: from my client who was at that time detained in Plymouth,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Massachusetts,
14:28
SPEAKER_01: saying they're going to ship me out to Louisiana tonight.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: And there's no notification.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Like they don't tell the attorney.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: They know he has an attorney.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: They don't tell the attorney.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: So I still believe that it wasn't.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: It's either just ignorant cruelty or it's malicious obstruction.
14:45
But either way,
14:45
so then we filed a habeas to say,
14:47
heck no,
14:49
you cannot transfer this man.
14:50
He also still had a pending criminal matter in Massachusetts
14:53
that gets obviously
14:54
SPEAKER_01: harder to participate in if you're in a different state.
14:59
And the fantastic emergency clerks and judges at the district
15:03
court act fast.
15:05
And they were able to stop his,
15:06
like do an immediate order saying you cannot transfer this man.
15:10
What eventually worked to get us to do the push ICE to do it
15:14
was still multiple,
15:15
SPEAKER_01: multiple emails and voicemails,
15:17
SPEAKER_01: but it was through the Assistant U.S.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: So the opposition council basically representing ICE in the habeas case.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: They're generally wonderful.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: They do try to facilitate communication and action.
15:31
And so they basically were able to put us in touch to
15:34
coordinate and set a date.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And in the meantime,
15:37
SPEAKER_01: I should say,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: too,
15:38
we're up against the clock because we were able to get a
15:40
marriage certificate,
15:41
which is also challenging when someone's detained because you
15:44
have to do an
15:44
SPEAKER_01: affidavit and basically ask nicely.
15:47
Some cities just won't do it because you normally have to have
15:50
both people there to sign it.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: But we were able to get that, but it was expiring at the end of January.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like January 24th,
15:56
SPEAKER_01: I had lined up two different,
15:58
like a primary pastor and a backup pastor in Plymouth who are
16:01
going to be able to
16:02
SPEAKER_01: officiate the ceremony.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, tell me where to go.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Like I bought, you know, I bought some flowers, like I'm ready.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know if it's going to happen.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: And we ended up getting a call from, again, a nice ICE officer.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: They exist.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: And saying basically, it's happening tomorrow.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Be there.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And so we're like, oh, it's going to be in Burlington.
16:22
So they brought him from Plymouth to Burlington,
16:24
which again,
16:25
there's no guidance.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: There's no information.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And I found a quick pastor.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: And he came, met me at the Burlington ICE office.
16:34
The security officer gave him some guff because there's a
16:39
weekly protest outside
16:40
SPEAKER_01: the Burlington ICE office.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Just like saying, hey, people shouldn't be housed here.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not designed for that.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: It's inhumane.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Peaceful protests, whatever.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: But he was one of the regulars and the officer knew that.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: He's like, look, this is not for protesting.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: If you're coming in this building, I don't want to hear it.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: Like you could tell he was peeved.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, I'm just here as a man of the cloth.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, he has his clerical collar on and everything.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, he's just here for a wedding.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, we're excited.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: This is our excited face.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: We're just here to do a nice little wedding.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And I had brought a little bouquet of flowers for the wife.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: And I brought little, like, white cupcakes and heart cookies.
17:14
But they wouldn't let us share the cookies or cupcakes,
17:17
which I know,
17:17
but I always want to try.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And I just basically took us into the back room afterwards.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: And it's, like, this tiny, sad little office in
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And the priest did a really nice mini ceremony.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: They were able to exchange rings.
17:32
I heard like one of the officer asked like the supervisor,
17:35
is he allowed to keep the ring?
17:36
SPEAKER_01: She's like, yeah, he can keep it.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: He can keep it.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: As if like it's a favor.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just like,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: private,
17:42
SPEAKER_01: just me,
17:43
SPEAKER_01: the pastor,
17:44
SPEAKER_01: the couple,
17:45
SPEAKER_01: and then these two ice people just like in the doorway watching.
17:49
And they were able,
17:49
they were allowed to hug afterwards and give a smooch
17:52
afterwards.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: And then he went back to detention.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's that.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: That's incredibly bittersweet and hard fought.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: And so this man is in detention.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: And where will he be going after this?
18:09
SPEAKER_01: So he was transferred, like I said, from Plymouth, Mass to Texas.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So he'll be going to his home country in Central America after this.
18:18
We're still trying to coordinate him leaving on his own flight
18:22
because the concern is
18:24
There's lots of reports about people who are transferred on an
18:27
ICE flight getting
18:27
immediately detained by their home country government and
18:31
questioned and possibly
18:32
SPEAKER_01: tortured sometimes.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: And so we're in this awful position of,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: do we fight for the asylum case,
18:37
SPEAKER_01: even though it sounds like very clearly the judge has made up her mind,
18:40
or do we go with voluntary departure with the idea that we can
18:44
maybe prevent you
18:45
SPEAKER_01: from getting detained and tortured in your home country,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: which is just an awful choice to have to make.
18:50
We wanted to ask about some of the more general experiences
18:55
you've had with ICE.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: Are they generally forthcoming with requests for information?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: How easy has it been to work with them?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: No, I would say generally it's super opaque.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just this big black hole.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And even when we have like,
19:09
there's a way for us to enter our appearance through an online
19:12
portal for detained
19:14
SPEAKER_01: folks.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And the in theory,
19:17
what that that's supposed to do is tell you as soon as someone
19:19
is transferred,
19:20
SPEAKER_01: if someone is transferred,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: but there's like a 24 to 48 hour lag time.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: What am I supposed to do with that?
19:27
SPEAKER_01: You know,
19:27
the way we typically find out that someone is getting
19:30
transferred because they
19:30
don't tell us it's not in their benefit to tell us because they
19:33
know we're going to
19:33
file a habeas is when a family member tries to put money on
19:37
their account for the
19:38
SPEAKER_01: canteen.
19:39
And they're told,
19:40
oh,
19:40
your canteen is locked or the funds have been emptied.
19:42
And that's because it's in the process of being closed wherever
19:45
they're detained
19:45
SPEAKER_01: and transferred to their new detention center.
19:48
it's really really hard and especially when folks are detained
19:51
in burlington i have
19:53
no way to contact my clients who are detained in burlington and
19:55
that they're there
19:56
sometimes for over two weeks and that's just horrendous
20:01
including people who have
20:02
medical i've had ice ask me can you give us his medical
20:05
paperwork because we
20:06
brought him to the hospital because there's clearly something
20:08
wrong with him but we
20:10
can't understand each other and the doctor doesn't know so we
20:12
need medical records
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, the solution is to release him.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: He has no criminal history.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: He had a pending asylum application.
20:20
He uses a walker and you kept him in a solitary confinement
20:23
room for two weeks.
20:26
There were days where he didn't see anyone because they slid
20:28
the food under his door.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Why?
20:32
SPEAKER_01: The whole system is set up for inhumanity and cruelty.
20:38
Have you found any successful tactics in actually getting
20:41
clients out of detention?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: If someone has any kind of criminal record,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: it is really,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: really hard to get them out of detention.
20:49
Even if it's from like five years ago,
20:51
driving without a license will damn you forever.
20:54
Like one violation of that within the last couple of years and
20:57
you may not get out on bond.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: It's really, really hard in those cases.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not impossible, but it's really hard.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: If someone doesn't have a criminal history,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: especially if they entered with a visa,
21:07
SPEAKER_01: it's definitely possible to get out on bond.
21:09
Of my six clients who were picked up in their main search,
21:13
all but one is now released.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: One,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: we're still trying desperately to get her out,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: but all were released on various bonds from like $3,000 to $8,000.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: The $8,000 one,
21:23
SPEAKER_01: no criminal history,
21:24
SPEAKER_01: has been here since 2016,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: pending asylum application,
21:28
SPEAKER_01: single mother of four,
21:30
SPEAKER_01: a nurse,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And she, meanwhile, was transferred.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: She was from Maine,
21:36
but she was transferred three times in four days from
21:40
Massachusetts to Louisiana to
21:43
SPEAKER_01: one place in Arizona to a second place in Arizona.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: And every time they transfer you,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: if you had a bond hearing scheduled,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: it gets canceled and then rescheduled with the new court.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: It's usually a seven-day gap between when you ask and when it happens.
21:55
People are getting out,
21:57
but it's like fighting tooth and nail every step of the way.
22:00
What advice can you give to those who worry that they or their
22:04
loved ones might be
22:05
SPEAKER_02: detained by ICE?
22:07
SPEAKER_01: They probably should be.
22:08
I mean,
22:09
even citizens,
22:10
even lawful permanent residents are at risk of being detained.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: And even if it's for a day while they figure it out,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: oh,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: you are a citizen or you're right,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: you aren't deportable.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: That's a day too long.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:22
if any one of us was picked up off the street and just plucked
22:25
from our lives and
22:26
SPEAKER_01: probably didn't have
22:28
access to maybe medications or our family or an attorney we'd
22:32
be horrified it's not
22:33
okay just to be released the next day like oopsie sorry every
22:37
one of those is an
22:38
insane violation of our rights and due process it's happening
22:42
to citizens because
22:43
we let it happen for way too long to immigrants and other
22:46
people who are in
22:47
vulnerable communities there's a certain level of risk for
22:50
everyone who's not a u.s
22:51
SPEAKER_01: born
22:52
citizen and it helps if you're white and bonus points if you're
22:56
male like it used
22:57
to be I could say it's okay you have a pending asylum
23:01
application you're allowed to
23:02
be here for the pendency of your asylum case you're not going
23:04
to get detained as
23:05
long as you don't like go on a horrific violent crime spree and
23:10
now I can say you
23:11
won't get deported while your asylum case is pending but you
23:15
could absolutely be
23:16
detained while it's pending and I think that's what we saw in
23:18
Maine when they
23:19
SPEAKER_01: picked up over 200 folks like
23:21
SPEAKER_01: All the Sikhs that I represented were asylum seekers.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: They already had applications pending and not like,
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: maybe I'm afraid,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: like very clear cut.
23:29
I was detained and tortured because I protested peacefully
23:32
against my government's
23:33
SPEAKER_01: authoritarian regime.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And in a sick twist of fate, here they are.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: It's senseless.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: It's unpredictable.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: The government is trying to make everyone afraid.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: They're trying to get people just to give up and go home.
23:45
Everyone has a baseline level of risk and it's just increased
23:48
depending on your demographics.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Robin, thank you so much for being here.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: Where can folks find and support your work?
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Our website is mcafielaw.com or you can also type in nicelaw.com.
23:58
We do have like a semi blog that we're trying to update better
24:03
because there's so
24:04
much information where we're trying to push out to clients
24:06
quickly now and just to
24:07
SPEAKER_01: do the general community.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: We're on Facebook and LinkedIn and we share information.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: I personally have like, I think 20-ish pro bono cases right now.
24:15
We're not upset if we do have a link on our website if people
24:17
want to donate to
24:18
SPEAKER_01: cover filing fees for clients who are pro bono.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: People can also just reach out to me.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm Robin at McAfeeLaw.com.
24:24
I'm always happy to connect people with some resources and
24:26
options as well.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: This is so great that you guys are covering all this in such depth.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: That's it for us this week.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for tuning in.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to send us an email at thisweekonice at gmail.com.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: And as always, if you like this show, please share it with a friend.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: It really helps us out.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Stay safe.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Look out for your neighbors.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you soon.