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Eggs 454: The Evolution of Marketing. Embracing Change with Perry Marshall · EGGS! The Podcast

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And with that, on to the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to
1:41
Eggs the podcast. Today's special guest is Perry
1:43
Marshall, a globally recognized business growth consultant,
1:45
founder, author and more. Welcome to the show.
1:47
Perry, how are you? Good to be here.
1:49
We're going to mix it up. Absolutely thrilled to death to
1:52
have you and thanks so much for making time for us.
1:55
So why don't we kick things off? Just do the generic who I am,
1:59
what I do, and a brief overview of that.
2:03
I am the engineer who wife was three months pregnant, got laid
2:10
off from engineering, didn't want to move across the country
2:14
so went into sales and I remember thinking, well, that
2:17
shouldn't be too hard. I've met a lot of the sales
2:19
guys. They don't all seem to be all
2:21
that smart. And I later found out I was in
2:25
for two years of Bologna sandwiches and ramen soup and
2:29
oh, you know, there's a lot of cheap foods like baked potatoes
2:32
and salsa is another good one. Very, very salsa on it that.
2:36
That sounds like an interesting. I'll try that later today if you
2:39
hate. It and and so I floundered
2:44
badly. I finally got fired from that
2:47
sales job two years later. It was one of those appear he's
2:52
really trying and he's got a lot of heart and and he's got a baby
2:57
at home and boy, it just we try. We tried so hard to make that
3:02
work. So a couple things happened.
3:06
One thing was I discovered direct marketing.
3:10
I stumbled into a seminar where somebody was talking about
3:14
advertising. This was in the late 90s before
3:18
direct marketing was a common thing.
3:21
And then when I got fired from the job, I took another job at a
3:24
company that had a website and, and that kind of sets you up for
3:31
a whole other career that, that turned in very interesting
3:37
directions. So you'd kind of wonder like,
3:39
well, why does a guy who with an electrical engineering degree,
3:43
who designed speakers for Honda and Chrysler, how does he end up
3:48
being some kind of a marketing guru?
3:51
Well, that, that's, that's how that happened.
3:54
And, and the thing about being an engineer was I would run, I
4:00
would encounter salespeople like I, I had a boss he could get
4:05
away with saying things that I could never get away with
4:07
saying. Like I don't know what magic
4:09
Pixie dust he had. But like somebody had to explain
4:17
marketing to me in a way that was logical and linear and
4:23
followed some kind of a process. And it turned out the old school
4:29
direct marketers were the people that cracked the code for me on
4:34
how to actually sell something. And, and there's lots more, but,
4:40
but that's kind of how it got started.
4:43
And, and I have to say, like, things got pretty bad.
4:47
Like about the time that I got fired from that job, we were
4:51
probably two or three months from, well, heck, we're just
4:55
moving back to Nebraska and living in the house on, you
4:58
know, next to your parents and starting over.
5:02
And, and, and I remember I, I went home for Thanksgiving one
5:07
time right in the middle of all that.
5:09
And my brother-in-law, Brett, who worked on the railroad, he
5:13
had a son who had gone to the university, and he was working
5:17
on the same engineering degree that I already had.
5:20
And he goes, you know, Perry, you guys aren't doing too well.
5:23
So like, I just got a question, like, is it going to really be
5:26
there for him? Yeah.
5:30
At the beginning of me. Well, and it's such a funny
5:32
trajectory. You know, both Mike and I are
5:33
pretty technically minded people, but also we work in the
5:36
creative world. So I run a design agency and and
5:39
Mike's in the music business and we, I think there's something to
5:44
that sort of technical knowledge.
5:45
So it's funny because I think on its face, a lot of people would
5:47
go engineer to marketer and it doesn't seem like a straight
5:51
path. But I, I can say at least in my
5:52
own experience, you know, having grown up and just, I mean,
5:55
having the luxury of being just old enough that if you wanted to
5:58
be on the Internet, you had to learn to code.
6:00
I, I tend to be technical enough now.
6:03
So as we're moving into this world with AI and all these
6:05
technologies, like I am able to do a lot more than I would have
6:08
if I didn't have that sort of quote UN quote technical
6:10
background. I'm not a developer or anything
6:13
by any means, but having some sort of technical thought and
6:15
being able to think through things systematically and
6:17
understand how they work has been a huge boon for us.
6:20
So I imagine for you especially, and I'm not sure what time frame
6:23
we're talking about exactly, but based on, on your age, you're
6:26
probably kind of at the cusp of what, you know, went from direct
6:30
mail into digital marketing. And as, or, and as somebody who
6:34
I, I've also spent many a year working in direct mail and, and,
6:37
you know, digital marketing myself.
6:39
And so I I remember that transition.
6:41
Yeah. Well, I, I got my first e-mail
6:44
address in 1995 and I wasn't doing any kind of marketing with
6:48
the Internet back then. But, but in 97, at the end of 97
6:53
is when I got that job. And I, so I had bought some
6:59
training materials about direct mail and print advertising.
7:03
And I was starting to wrap my head around, oh, there, there's
7:06
this whole other world, like mail order catalogs and stuff.
7:10
Like I suddenly understood how that worked.
7:13
And I remember having the thought, Hey, wait a minute, a
7:17
web page is just like a letter. And nobody had told me that I
7:23
kind of connected that dot myself.
7:25
And I thought, you know, I think everything I'm reading about in
7:28
these newsletters applies to the Internet, just in a slightly
7:33
different way. And that was exactly right.
7:37
And, and it was, it was I had been either ahead of the curve
7:44
or imagined myself to be on the head of the curve.
7:47
That that's a whole other thing, right?
7:50
You, you think you're like on the on the verge of some amazing
7:53
trend and really you're just walking a plank into a Canyon.
7:58
Two years. Well, I will.
7:59
Say, yeah, in your defense, we've never lived in a better
8:01
time for our own truths right now.
8:03
So I mean, this is We're allowed to believe that we were on
8:06
whatever edge we'd like. And, and, and so for the first
8:09
time in my life, I really was on the front edge of a trend that
8:14
really was happening. And it wasn't just a train
8:18
coming, you know, to run me over and, and, and that was really
8:23
exciting. And it was a magic carpet,
8:25
right? And I think it's very
8:26
appropriate that we're talking about this because in the last,
8:31
so I, I wanna, I wanna show you guys some, something unexpected.
8:36
So you guys ever have one of these like a Hot Wheels, a race
8:42
track with a with a loop? Yeah, I, I bought this thing a
8:49
couple weeks ago because it's a perfect object lesson for what
8:56
happened with the Internet in that time period that we're
8:59
talking about right now. And also what's happening again
9:04
with AI. So so this you got the you got
9:10
the the blue straight part coming in and out and then you
9:14
got this green loop here. Yeah.
9:16
And I'll just add a little context for anybody who's not
9:18
seeing the video piece of this, which is basically we're looking
9:21
at a Hot Wheels place, that type of thing with, you know, a track
9:25
and then like the loop, the loop in the middle.
9:27
So as he's describing it, that's kind of what we're looking at.
9:29
Yep. And and so before 19, I'd say
9:33
1995 was when the Internet started to happen.
9:38
And, and I'll never forget the day I, I had just been laid off
9:43
from my job, which I, the engineering job that I mentioned
9:47
earlier. I was driving near Midway
9:50
Airport in Chicago and I saw a sign that said Southwest
9:54
Airlines, www.southwest.com. And I knew what that was, even
10:02
though I had never been on the Internet myself.
10:06
And about a week later, I got an e-mail address that's 95.
10:12
By 2000, everybody was on the Internet.
10:17
And so, to use my little Hot Wheels analogy, before 1995,
10:23
marketing was this certain way. And then the Internet hit and
10:28
then marketing completely changed.
10:30
And after 2000, I would say even with social media and the things
10:34
that didn't really exist in 2000, the rules have basically
10:39
been the same for the last 25 years.
10:44
Yeah, and it seems like the stuff that works best from that
10:46
period is still sort of the stuff that works today.
10:48
You know your your Google ads and Facebook marketing.
10:51
You know these kinds of things. But we are, the Hot Wheels car
10:55
is probably about here like almost to the halfway point of a
11:03
complete shift with AI. So ChatGPT comes along and
11:07
things start to change a little bit.
11:09
And now we are full swing into a change.
11:14
And I, I think that it, it depends entirely on how you
11:21
define marketing. And I'll give you 2 definitions.
11:25
According to one definition, nothing's changed at all.
11:30
But according to a more typical definition, 3/4 of it is
11:36
changing radically, and I don't think people really quite get it
11:42
yet. And the getting.
11:44
Really dropped for me about a month ago and I, I'm working on
11:50
a seminar that we're doing in a few weeks and it's about equity
11:53
and selling your company and financing and, you know, raising
11:56
money and exits and M&A and all that stuff.
12:00
And I woke up at 3:30 in the morning and I, I realized most
12:05
of these companies aren't going to be worth anything unless they
12:09
take the marketing pivots and redefine what marketing even is.
12:18
So, so I'll give you 2 definitions.
12:21
If the definition of marketing is all the tricks you use to get
12:26
people to run through the maze, ring the bell and get the
12:30
cheese. If that's what you think
12:33
marketing is, then marketing is completely, utterly changing to
12:39
be unrecognizable from what it used to be.
12:43
And we're we're just like partly into the transition where it's
12:47
not even entirely obvious to most people where all this is
12:51
headed. It'll give you a different
12:54
definition of marketing, which is my definition is it's the art
12:59
and science of helping people who need each other find each
13:02
other. That didn't change, doesn't
13:08
change, will not change. And the stuff that worked 100
13:13
years ago will still work now, but it works on a completely
13:17
different time scale. And I just don't think most
13:21
people are ready for this. So let let me take a breath here
13:29
and get some reactions from you guys.
13:31
Well, first thing, I was just going to kind of maybe add to
13:33
your metaphor a little bit, because I think that, you know,
13:35
the the Hot Wheels loop de loop that we've got, I think you're
13:40
right. You know that there was sort of
13:41
this trend for a long time and it was print, it was direct
13:43
mail. It was things like this, you
13:44
know, things that we held in our hands.
13:46
Then we went to a digital model and so we sort of did that loop
13:49
de loop. And what I liked about your
13:51
metaphor is that you've got this bit of Rd. that's before the the
13:54
changing and then this bit of Rd. that comes after the
13:57
changing. So once we've done the loop, now
13:59
we've come out the other side. And now marketing is a little
14:01
bit different. And when I'm saying marketing, I
14:03
believe your definition is, is more accurate.
14:05
But I guess I'll use marketing as a, a word to mean the tactics
14:09
of, of reaching these people. Yes.
14:10
So but what I might do is add to your metaphor by adding a second
14:14
loop de loop. And as you're talking about that
14:16
we're in this new transition or this new world with AII think
14:20
we're going to have another one of those long adoption curves.
14:22
So you've got the road between the loops that I think most
14:24
people are living on. And then I think everybody who's
14:27
paying attention to AI right now is, you know, a third of the way
14:30
or or you know, almost half of the way around that 2nd loop.
14:34
But I think it's going to be a minute before the rest of the
14:36
world catches up to that. And so, but it's funny because
14:38
we're already seeing things change.
14:40
We had a guy on the show not too long ago that.
14:42
We. Confirmed what we had been doing
14:45
without even thinking about it, but that we're using ChatGPT and
14:48
other models like this largely as search engines now.
14:52
So instead of asking Google a question, I'll just ask ChatGPT
14:54
the question, you know, hey, I need a lasagna recipe, you know,
14:57
and I'll go to ChatGPT instead. And so a lot of people are
15:01
starting to make this transition where even search engines are
15:03
changing, you know, and Google, of course, is integrating their,
15:05
their Gemini model into some of that.
15:08
And so you're starting to see that change already.
15:10
But then I look at people that are sort of, I was at a funeral
15:14
thing this last weekend and I was talking to my father-in-law
15:18
and you know, he's, he's pushing 75.
15:20
And for him, he's like, I just want to be able to get the
15:23
newspaper. I want to know what's going on
15:25
in my community and stuff like that.
15:27
You know, so a guy like him has little need for something like
15:29
AI. And so I think there's sort of
15:31
this generation, you know, that's probably, I don't know,
15:35
let's call it 50 and forward, maybe 6055 and forward that that
15:39
isn't going to get the AI thing, the AI version of doing
15:44
marketing or whatever is going to be what hits this next
15:46
generation. And that's those will be the
15:47
people who are the adopters, I think.
15:50
Well, I think what you're saying buys some time for people who
15:57
are slow. And you know, I feel like this
15:59
is kind of a delicate conversation because it's not
16:03
really my intention to scare people.
16:06
I like, I can grab you by the lapels and I can tell you that
16:11
your whole industry is going to become obsolete.
16:14
And I might even be right for some people.
16:18
I just don't feel like pushing you into a lizard brain.
16:22
Panic is is really the thing. But that said, I think a lot of
16:30
people are not prepared for how I I don't think we are very far
16:40
at all. I maybe couple years when an
16:44
audio book becomes AAI generated Choose your own adventure where
16:51
like I could easily imagine. Hello, you just bought Malcolm
16:58
Gladwell's book Blink. If you give us your LinkedIn
17:04
profile and your website, we will learn about you and we will
17:08
tailor Malcolm's new book to you and.
17:13
There's to ask. Malcolm a question and.
17:15
I can even see a version just beyond already.
17:17
Here. Like.
17:19
The the, the personal AI guy that we had on a while ago, he,
17:22
he grabs a, a website where you can upload your own resume,
17:26
everything about you that our say our conversation on this
17:29
podcast and then you can go and have it be your personal AI for
17:34
people who have questions for you.
17:35
Scott Galloway does this with his podcast and anyone.
17:39
He gets millions of emails a day from people and he can't
17:43
physically reply to him, but his AI does and it gets a close
17:46
enough version to that to where it it solves that problem.
17:50
Yeah, even, you know, former podcast guest Chris Doe also has
17:54
this. He has the Doe Bot now.
17:56
And, you know, same thing. You know, he's getting, you
17:58
know, lots of e-mail requests, but everybody's asking kind of
18:01
the same questions. So he trained it on, you know,
18:04
10 years or 12 years of YouTube videos and, you know, all this
18:07
other stuff that he's developed over all these years.
18:10
And, and now basically he's got what he calls the Doe Bot.
18:12
And you can just go ask it anything you want and it'll give
18:14
you all the, you know, insights as if it was him.
18:17
So but I, I can even see things going one step further where
18:20
based on your preferences, you know, maybe a Netflix type or
18:22
something like that just creates a show for you, you know, like
18:26
it's not based on anything. It's strictly for.
18:28
You. We all have our own feed, you
18:30
know. And I have a friend named John
18:33
Fox who says his definition of marketing is anything that you
18:40
do before you actually can get face to face with a customer or
18:46
talk to him in person. That's a pretty good definition.
18:49
And he said all of that is getting flattened because
18:57
because the ability to tell a story is now commoditized.
19:03
So my wife, the other day, she bought some kind of yoga thing
19:10
on perplexity and like it. She described exactly what she
19:15
want. She took it, it took it to some
19:20
website and she made a payment. Maybe she even paid perplexity,
19:25
I don't quite remember. But like it was, it was like a
19:29
straight line from the question to the product sale without a
19:33
dog and pony show or a song and dance or really even much of A
19:36
decision making process. And So what I want to emphasize
19:43
is it doesn't make the real definition of marketing go away
19:49
at all. There's still an art and science
19:52
of helping people who need each other find each other, but
19:56
there's just a whole lot of layers that become unnecessary
20:04
if a person can ask a sufficiently precise question
20:07
about what they want, or if as long as they know what they want
20:11
or know what they should want, which is a whole other.
20:15
That's a whole nother question, of course, but I don't think
20:22
most people have accounted for this.
20:25
And I think most sales funnels are based on content creation
20:32
models and information marketing models that are 20 years old and
20:39
and the expectation of what something like that should be
20:43
has already shifted. So for, for example, in the
20:49
early 80s, FedEx came out with commercials that said if it
20:54
absolutely positively has to be there overnight, the minute that
20:59
FedEx existed, it now made no sense at all that some mail
21:05
order company said please allow four to six weeks for delivery.
21:10
It just the existence of one thing obliterated another thing
21:15
that wasn't even directly related.
21:19
And So what AI is doing is if Gemini or Quad or ChatGPT can do
21:29
it in 30 seconds, then there's an automatic leap in
21:34
expectations. I don't need a human to do that
21:37
for me anymore. And this should not be hard.
21:43
And so, and, and the expectation goes way up.
21:50
So I think white papers have been a great lead generation
21:55
tool since the late 90s and they even before that.
22:00
Well, now your white paper needs to specifically solve your
22:09
problem and deal with your specific scenario because now
22:15
your white paper is a GPT. Now, I think there's a big
22:19
opportunity for marketers here and, and I want to lay out what
22:23
it is. And so I'll give you a specific
22:28
example of a specific client who just sold their company.
22:34
So the the client is Solar Quotes Australia, which is owned
22:39
by a guy named Finn Peacock. And about two years ago he came
22:45
to one of my, I had an AI seminar and he came to that
22:48
seminar and he said I am going to build a customer service chat
22:54
bot for people who are installing solar power in
22:58
Australia. And so they curated their
23:02
database and they built a chat bot and they made it.
23:05
So support ticket gets opened, chat bot answers the question.
23:10
The answer goes to a person first the person has to a thumbs
23:13
up, thumbs down. If it's thumbs up, it goes right
23:16
back. If it thumbs down, it goes in
23:18
the reject pile. And then they go fix the rejects
23:21
every week and they make their database better and they train
23:25
the bot. So what this did, this made
23:30
customer service 30% more efficient and less expensive.
23:36
It made the customer service job more interesting because in
23:39
managing a bot rather than just answering the same stupid
23:42
questions over and over and over and over again.
23:45
And that's obvious enough. But there there's a couple
23:49
things that are not obvious that I think are super powerful.
23:54
One of them is they now have the best solar power chat bot in the
24:00
world and it's way better than ChatGPT or Google or Gemini.
24:04
Why? Because those huge platforms,
24:10
the best they can do is average together solar power information
24:14
from 1000 different websites, which has conflicting points of
24:18
view and conflicting philosophies and different
24:21
voltage levels. And I don't think it's realistic
24:26
that Google or ChatGPT is ever going to be a really good
24:30
curator of information that you need when you're using 480 volts
24:36
of electricity and somebody could get killed or your house
24:39
could burn down. And I don't think Google or
24:42
ChatGPT is ever going to decide to enter that market.
24:47
So Finn owns that market and he's ahead of every other solar
24:51
power company. And the better is chat bot gets,
24:55
the more people use it and the more people use it, the better
24:58
it gets. And what I just described can be
25:02
done by anybody, any subject matter expert who has a body of
25:07
work and a distinctly unique point of view on a topic.
25:13
And I do not see very many people doing this.
25:17
And you just described Chris Doe and a few other people that are,
25:21
they are doing early versions of that and they're public figures.
25:27
And so they have a big audience. But I don't think you even have
25:31
to be a public figure in order to do this.
25:33
You just have to have a very, very distinct point of view.
25:41
Yeah. And it, and it's interesting
25:42
because that that lends itself to sort of a theory that I have
25:45
for sort of the future things you mentioned earlier, not
25:47
wanting to scare everybody off with all this AI talk.
25:50
And, and I think that that's a better way to be is a little bit
25:52
more on the positive side. But I work as a visual designer,
25:55
I work in creative realm, We do advertising, marketing, all that
25:58
kind of stuff. And so for people like me that
26:00
are, you know, getting into our mid 40s and then going, well,
26:04
shoot, what am I going to be doing at 55?
26:06
Like, is there going to be a job for me?
26:08
Because, you know, the kind of work we do, you know, could
26:11
easily be replaced by computers within 10 years at the rate
26:13
things are moving. Well, minimally, all the
26:16
production work and the low level work that just gets done
26:18
to spin up a social media ad or whatever, that kind of stuff
26:21
could basically disappear the way that I'm either.
26:25
Go ahead, Mike. I was, I was going to say that
26:27
like look at like SEO, look at like Facebook marketing ads,
26:30
Look at all these different things that have come and kind
26:33
of gone by the wayside literally overnight.
26:36
You can be doing something and Facebook updates or their
26:38
algorithm or Google changes things and now your entire SEO
26:44
platform that you've built or your Facebook marketing thing
26:46
changes overnight and you lose your revenue stream because of
26:49
one simple update. It's happened multiple times.
26:53
The whole thing is you have to be able to pivot and.
26:56
And I think that that's where I get back to Perrys point is that
27:01
my assumption is that there's always going to be a place for
27:05
expertise. And so in in your parlance, you
27:07
know, for having a unique perspective or point of view,
27:10
which is that if you want a Picasso, you're going to go to
27:13
Picasso, you're going to hire that guy because he does the
27:15
thing that you want, right? And there's going to be, I
27:17
think, some social status around, oh, I got that guy to do
27:21
this thing for me. And so I think as it pertains to
27:23
marketing and advertising and things like that, there are
27:25
obviously thought leaders and stuff in design.
27:27
There are people who are design leaders and people who have, you
27:30
know, unique styles and things like that.
27:33
And of course you can emulate and things like that.
27:35
But I think there will become some value to getting the guy,
27:38
you know, we're getting the, the lady who is the one who is the
27:41
expert who does this thing, who invented this style or whatever
27:44
it is. So I think that there's a, a
27:46
positive or an upside for, for a future of design, which is that
27:49
some things actually could be made better because the
27:52
competition will now be human on AI and it'll be, Hey, I'm the
27:55
guy that invented that. So there's some maybe social
27:57
score, social credit and using the person who's the expert, you
28:01
know, and then I think we're going to be become combating
28:04
basically just noise. I think at some point things are
28:06
going to become so easy to generate that they become so
28:08
noisy that we just tune out everything except for the things
28:11
that are truly unique. Yes.
28:14
So this is a this is a shift. So, so I have a book called 8020
28:20
Sales and Marketing and 8020 is, it is everywhere.
28:26
It's a law of nature, it's a law of the universe.
28:31
And it's, it's not the numbers 80 and 20 that are so important.
28:36
It's, it's the fact that there, there is a, there is a asymmetry
28:43
between cause and effect. 20% of the causes produce 80% of the
28:48
effects and 80% of the causes produce 20% of the facts.
28:51
And one of the effects that the Internet does most things on the
28:56
Internet are not 8020, they're ninety. 1010% of the players get
29:02
90% of the business rather than 20% of the players getting 80%
29:08
of the business. So everything on the Internet is
29:11
even more unequal. So let me give you specific
29:14
examples of that that back what you just said so Spotify in
29:26
YouTube make Taylor Swift as close to free as you can get.
29:35
Therefore Taylor Swift tickets cost 600 bucks.
29:42
That's exactly what you just got done saying.
29:46
So if, if, if they can get the virtual version of you and they
29:54
like it, they will pay top dollar to the 10% that are at
30:02
the tippy top that are desirable.
30:05
And there's a big business to be had there.
30:09
And it is showing up in person, in the flesh, dancing on a
30:14
stage, singing into a microphone, doing the show or
30:18
painting the Picasso or whatever.
30:22
And so I think creators need a A2 part strategy.
30:29
They need a Spotify presence, if you will, and they need a
30:37
concert. And if you're if, if you can get
30:43
above a certain size, you can get above a certain gravity
30:49
level, then the free stuff makes the paid stuff all that much
30:57
more valuable. But you have to have a unique
31:02
point of view. Taylor Swift doesn't just play
31:06
country music. She does it a very particular
31:09
way with a very particular style and a very particular point of
31:12
view. And, and, and the same's true of
31:16
the solar quote guy. Australia is a different company
31:21
country than other places. Their voltages are different,
31:24
the sunlight is different. And they positioned themselves
31:30
to be #1 in a growing market with a unique point of view.
31:37
And that's really the punch line.
31:40
I think a lot of people are trying to define themselves too
31:43
broadly, and then you're just gonna get lost in the noise.
31:48
Yeah, well, my thoughts on the whole Spotify thing are more
31:54
negative than positive. You're in the music business.
31:59
Yeah, back in the day, the music was the commodity.
32:02
Now you literally have to go and be the dancing puppet on stage
32:05
to make the money. And that money is split 8020 to
32:09
the venue. And then you got a merge split
32:11
and then you got they're literally taking everything that
32:14
used to generate revenue for the artist and now it's it's
32:18
essentially free. And the the highest paid person
32:22
on Spotify is the CEO over Taylor Swift, Rihanna, every
32:26
single top artist combined is making less than what the CEO is
32:31
getting every year. And that to me is a problem.
32:34
But yeah, you know, Sidestep, that's not what we're talking
32:37
about. Well, I would say the the sort
32:39
of like the art example of this, right?
32:41
Just kind of use art as a metaphor.
32:43
Since I brought up Picasso would be like, you know, so your NFT
32:47
or your JPG is your free version, right?
32:49
Somebody just grabbed a picture of something and took it off the
32:51
Internet. The second version, the low
32:53
tier, the cheap is your print. You know, you, you have have
32:57
painted a painting and now you've, you know, reproduced it
32:59
in a way that people can buy it for 10 or $20 and throw it on
33:02
the wall. And then you're, you know, high,
33:05
high dollar, your premium, your Taylor Swift on stage is the
33:07
original of that piece, right. So you're sort of able to hit
33:10
those different markets. But the one thing that I.
33:12
Like vinyl these days, it's the trendy thing and it's what
33:16
artists are doing to actually get music sales is because.
33:19
Back into the money business again.
33:20
Yeah. So, but where I think that is
33:24
really interesting or maybe it's where we could spend a minute
33:26
talking is so there's, there's a gap though.
33:28
So I mean, the unique point of view I think is correct, but
33:31
there's a lot of people with unique points of view that we
33:33
never hear from, you know, and like in the music business,
33:35
you've got a million guys in their garage right now that are
33:37
every bit as talented, every bit as opinionated, every bit as
33:40
whatever. But the gap is, you know, maybe
33:43
this is what you're talking about, the 9010, which is, you
33:45
know, Taylor Swift is bogarting 90% while these guys are getting
33:48
their ten, you know. And so maybe in terms of like
33:52
how we turn this into a business conversation is how do we go
33:55
about grabbing back or clawing a little bit more of that, you
33:59
know, piece of the pie back if we don't have the voice, right?
34:02
There's still got to be some marketing techniques or some way
34:04
of getting out in front of people.
34:06
You know, social media is obviously a channel and there's
34:08
others, but. So here's where most marketers
34:11
really don't get it. Most marketers think that it's
34:19
about all of the mechanisms that 'cause people to run through the
34:23
maze, ring the bell and get the cheese like this, about all the
34:27
techniques. Well, no, that's not the most
34:30
important thing. The most important thing is to
34:37
carve off a slice of a market that that has a problem that
34:44
nobody is addressing, so that you are the number one person in
34:50
that market. And people don't realize that
34:53
being number one in a teeny tiny sliver of a market is way more
34:58
profitable than you think it is. And it's way more profitable
35:02
than being #400 in a huge market.
35:05
Most marketers are #400 in a huge market and they're eating
35:10
baked potatoes and salsa. Frankly, if if you can identify
35:16
a problem that nobody is solving and you are the only person that
35:21
solves it, even if it's just for owners of Vietnamese potbelly
35:25
pigs, you'd be surprised how much money there is to be made
35:31
being number one in Vietnamese potbelly pigs.
35:36
Yeah, I actually think that that's a great bit of
35:38
perspective to talk about too, because I do think that just
35:41
given the prevalence of media and the fact that everything is
35:43
kind of shoved down everyone's throat all the time, I think it
35:46
does feel overwhelming. Like, you know, the how am I
35:49
ever going to catch up? I mean, God, look at all these
35:51
people doing this stuff or whatever, right?
35:52
And so to your point, it's not even necessarily so much about
35:55
niching, but the size of the market maybe.
35:57
So it is a good way to look at it, which is that, you know,
36:01
these or I guess it's kind of like the whole, the whole, you
36:04
know, there's someone for everyone kind of thing, you
36:06
know, like somebody for everybody.
36:08
It's like, you know, I think that you could be really
36:11
successful. And I think it, you know,
36:13
there's the old saying or the, the thing about the thousand
36:15
true fans, right? And I think that, you know, the,
36:19
the point of that whole metaphor is, is, or that whole concept is
36:23
that basically, you know, with 1000 true fans, you can
36:25
basically build your your career.
36:27
And I think for a small, you know, small musical act or
36:29
whatever, you could do that with 1000 small fans.
36:32
But to your point that thousand people will carry you all the
36:34
way. They'll buy every album, they'll
36:36
buy every whatever, they'll do this and that because they're
36:38
your people, right? And so I think back to your
36:40
earlier definition of, you know, what is marketing.
36:44
I think this is that, right? Marketing is a relationship with
36:46
people. And so by you finding your niche
36:50
or your little sliver, you know, you can identify with a group of
36:54
people who are your people. And, and I think that's OK.
36:57
I think that we spend a lot of time chasing this bigger
37:00
picture, Like, I need to be the biggest thing in the country or
37:02
I need to be the biggest thing on the planet when it's like you
37:04
could be the biggest thing in, you know, Farmington, Utah here.
37:08
And and do quite a bit with that.
37:10
For a while I was pursuing a, a software application that was
37:16
specifically designed for people in the DJ world to provide your
37:22
client interactions and booking and, and all that stuff.
37:25
And I, I went out to raise some capital to get it built.
37:31
And after the pitch and everything that, the feedback
37:35
that I got was that the market was too niche, that there's no,
37:39
why would it, why would you go after, you know, a, a small
37:43
demographic like just in the, the music industry like that.
37:47
And, and my thought was like, I don't really care if, you know,
37:51
like, yeah, I was the the guy that was like the the investor
37:56
dude that I was pitching to, he was thinking, go after everyone.
38:01
My thought is, is like, this is what I do.
38:03
This is I know I'm in this industry and I know that there's
38:06
a need for it. The investor dude A didn't
38:10
understand marketing and B didn't understand the market,
38:14
which is even more important than understanding marketing.
38:18
Like he was wrong. I know that he was wrong.
38:22
In fact, if if I might suggest the way that you might
38:25
circumvent that because you would you're going to get that
38:29
from people who don't know a market.
38:33
I was consulting with somebody about a month ago.
38:37
They had they, they had a plan to make a software for a medical
38:44
procedure and, and I said he's a doctor.
38:52
I said go to your hospital or go to some hospital and tell them
38:58
I'll have the software ready for you in a year and I'll sell it
39:01
to you at half price if you'll write a check for me today.
39:07
I said if you get 2 checks from hospitals, you'll get an
39:11
investor to pay for the software development because you just
39:15
proved to them that there's a market for this.
39:20
Now what was interesting about that conversation was then he
39:24
had to figure out, well, who at the hospital is going to write
39:27
the check. And if it's an administrator,
39:31
you have to prove some kind of cost savings and not just that
39:34
it makes a process easier for a surgeon.
39:38
And he realized that he did not have that worked out.
39:42
And I find this is true many, many times when people raise
39:46
money is they said something that convinced an investor that
39:52
sounded like a really good idea, but they didn't actually have a
39:56
product that would connect with an actual customer that they
40:00
would write a check for. And I've made this mistake
40:03
myself a bunch of times. About 15 years ago I started a
40:08
company called Fanalytics. And it was a, a company that did
40:16
what Facebook now everybody knows it does now, but Facebook
40:20
wasn't doing it back then. And, and our software would go,
40:24
it would look at all of your fans and it that were on your
40:27
web page and it would figure out what they're they like.
40:29
And, and it would tell you all these patterns so that you could
40:33
figure out where to advertise and everything.
40:35
And so it was really cool. And we had a whole bunch of
40:38
people tell us, Oh, that's awesome.
40:40
And so then we spent a whole bunch of money developing the
40:43
software. And when we went back to
40:45
everybody that said they liked it, nobody would actually write
40:49
us a check. It was just one of those weird
40:52
things where just because they think they like it doesn't mean
40:55
they would actually spend money on it.
40:59
And the whole thing went belly up.
41:00
So I've made that mistake. A bunch.
41:03
And it's interesting. I mean like in Mike's case,
41:05
right? I mean, I just did a quick
41:06
little ChatGPT thing here while we were talking.
41:09
You know, it says that there's about 150,000 DJs that are
41:12
making a living, you know, and that could be part time or
41:14
better living across all genres, right?
41:16
Wedding DJs, party guys, etcetera.
41:18
Just for simple math. So let's say you grab 50,000 of
41:20
those, you know, so not even, I mean, you just take a third of
41:22
the audience. I mean, there's not a lot of
41:23
competition in the software Mike was looking to build.
41:26
So if you built a really good tool and you grabbed 1/3 of that
41:28
audience, I mean, you know, let's say they pay $100 a year.
41:31
I mean, you're at $5,000,000 a year right there.
41:34
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty decent money off a little
41:36
software platform for a little niche and it's more than enough
41:39
for a little mic here. Yeah.
41:41
And so even with a small team, I could keep that thing going, you
41:44
know what I mean? And so it's like, so it's funny.
41:45
So your point about just people not knowing their audience or
41:48
whatever is the thing. And maybe the bigger thing there
41:50
is that, you know, maybe it was a gift that he waited because
41:53
nowadays you could accomplish this piece of software without
41:55
VC funding and all this other stuff, probably, you know, at a
41:59
fraction of the cost of even just a few years ago when he was
42:01
doing that. I think so.
42:03
But I, I, I can tell you one thing though, is I did take that
42:06
feedback and I I've kind of pivoted a little bit.
42:11
Not I'm not going to talk about it because I don't want somebody
42:16
to jump on chat TVT go for it. But I mean, I, I took, I took
42:19
his constructive feedback, even though it was kind of flawed in
42:23
my, my idea because you know, that was three years ago.
42:27
If we had the software working right now, it could be
42:28
generating revenue. But at the same time, but as to
42:33
Ryan said, now I can kind of take that and do it myself quite
42:37
frankly and do it on a broader scale and, and, and maybe open
42:42
it up to other demographics as well.
42:45
Yeah, and I think, I mean, this is a little bit theoretical, but
42:48
my, my assumption is that as AI and all these things continue to
42:52
ramp up, we will more and more strive for human opportunities,
42:56
things to go do in person and stuff like that.
42:59
So I would imagine your audience of DJ's isn't shrinking, it's
43:01
probably growing. I mean, you're going to have,
43:03
you know, the, the whatever, what's that Tesla robot, the
43:05
optimist DJ or whatever. Like you'll get one of those,
43:08
you know, here and there. But I think that people are
43:10
still going to look for like visceral human stuff.
43:14
And I think that, you know, so I think an opportunity, you know,
43:16
like for Mike, I don't think his software is going to be put out
43:18
of business by AI, for example. Well, Mike, I want to pick up on
43:22
what you said about, you know, the Spotify CEO and all the
43:26
venues are sucking up all the money for the artists.
43:28
So I want to bring this full circle.
43:32
In the late 80s I was the sound man for a band in Lincoln, NE
43:38
that was trying to make the scene.
43:41
And so we recorded an album and I was a mixing engineer and, and
43:47
we did shows and, and so I have a perspective on what promoting
43:56
a band was like in 1988. My son has a band now and they
44:03
just spent a few $1000 recording a couple of tracks and getting
44:07
them on Spotify and title and and everything.
44:10
And if I sit here and I go, would you rather be promoting a
44:16
band in 1988 or 2025? I would still pick 2025 because
44:27
I like, I remember the leader of our band went to somewhere like
44:34
there was some slightly famous person there.
44:37
I don't know if it was a it was a record store or where it was.
44:41
And he like gives them this demo tape and like, Hey, you know,
44:45
I've got this band. Would you listen to this tape?
44:48
And that's literally as far as you can get it.
44:52
Like, well, we, we made our shot everybody.
44:57
And again, we were in Lincoln, NE and there's not much of A
45:00
music scene in Lincoln, NE. And so, you know, maybe the guy
45:04
would had to move to Nashville or, or something.
45:09
If, if I compare that to what my son is doing, like, well, one
45:15
thing my son's got going for him is they do a great live show.
45:18
They're very tight. It's very good band and they
45:23
have friends and they can get 60 or 80 people to show up when
45:30
they play like, well, now the Lincoln NE band, they could get
45:35
60 or 80 people to show up. But my perspective is that if
45:41
you're really serious now, you have so many more tools.
45:45
Like I think I think 90% of the people that are in in the
45:52
endeavor, they're out there and they have a YouTube channel or
45:56
they have some songs or something, but they're not
45:59
actually serious. I think if you're serious now,
46:03
you can get farther now easier. So that's just my opinion and
46:10
I'm not. In there's what?
46:11
Do you think, Mike? I think there's a lot of
46:13
resources that make things easier.
46:16
I mean, you got digital sound cards if you're.
46:18
If you jump on the YouTube wormhole, you can create your
46:21
own album without paying 50 grand to go into the studio like
46:24
you had to in the 80s. Yeah, but it also lowers the
46:28
quality of the music because you don't have the ear that the
46:32
Grammy winning producer has. So that sets you apart.
46:35
But if you want to get a demo in front of someone and start
46:37
building something, it's a lot easier to do and there's avenues
46:41
to get your music out there. Your music isn't the revenue
46:45
anymore. It's it's the glorified business
46:48
card. You print ACD to get your logo
46:51
in front of someone and they might actually have ACD player
46:55
in their car to actually play it.
46:56
Most people don't these days. So it's like it's such a weird,
47:00
weird kind of place because really you're only your income
47:03
stream is ticket sales or merch or, you know, you have to be
47:08
really creative to get the the revenue because there's no other
47:14
right alternative. And a lot of the venues and then
47:16
starting out like you, you'll have a six piece band going in
47:19
and, and the venue's only going to pay him 300 bucks to come and
47:23
play for the night. And now you're splitting 300
47:25
bucks six ways and it just doesn't make sense to be in a
47:28
band. You know, it's, it's kind of.
47:32
Yeah, it's a hard. Market to be in.
47:34
It's a funny thing though that you mentioned CDs.
47:36
So my kids are big music guys like I was and, and they follow
47:39
a lot of different rappers and stuff like that.
47:41
So they buy merch from these different guys.
47:43
They have bought 3 CDs from three different guys like
47:46
Kendrick Lamar, Tyler, the Creator, you know all these
47:48
guys. They they sell these little box
47:50
sets that come with AT shirt and a sticker and a this and that,
47:53
right? But they all come with ACD.
47:56
We don't have ACD player in the house.
47:57
I mean, I guess unless you call it, you know, count the
47:59
PlayStation or something. And so the CD never actually
48:01
gets played. They just put it on a shelf
48:03
somewhere like decoration, you know, and so it's funny, they
48:05
don't even need it. They got all the music on
48:07
Spotify or whatever they. Don't need the same thing with
48:09
my record collection. You know, I don't even carry
48:11
records. I mean, I can go and do a a live
48:14
show with records and that would that sets you apart.
48:16
That's great, right? Yeah, but the the records these
48:21
days, they buy the record and they'll play it on their their
48:24
thing, but it's more it's the tangible item of having the
48:28
artwork in front of you and having the the lyrics and the
48:32
you know that that sets it apart than this JPEG on a on a well.
48:36
That's one of the things I tell my boys all the time is, you
48:39
know, when I was a kid, the experience of I have $20 on my
48:41
hand. I'm going to the record store.
48:43
CDs come out on Tuesday. I've got to pick one on the wall
48:47
because I only have enough money for the one of the 10 releases
48:49
that are dropping today. That's right.
48:50
And when you get it, you flip it, you know, you're looking
48:53
through the the leaf notes, you're looking under the CD tray
48:55
to see if they hid something. You, you know, is there a
48:57
mystery track at the end of the album or something?
48:59
You know, there's all these, like, tactical experiences that
49:01
we used to have that we just don't now with digital.
49:04
So it's kind of cool actually that they're going back to, you
49:06
know, physical media. So, but I wanted to just add a
49:09
couple points to your sort of band metaphor there, which was
49:11
first, I think one thing, and we've kind of talked about it in
49:14
a couple ways on this episode already, which is the more
49:17
things change, the more they stay the same, right?
49:19
So the the good news is what it took to be a good band in 88 is
49:22
what it takes to be a good band today.
49:24
You still have to be good. You have to play tight, you have
49:26
to be a good performer. You have to network your butt
49:28
off. You have to market yourself.
49:29
You have to do all those things, right?
49:31
Yep. But you know, to your point
49:32
about maybe it's a little better to do it today, I would say it's
49:35
kind of, you know, the same plus, which is, you know, we're
49:38
the same pro model, which is that, you know, you have to do
49:41
all those things. But now you have some new tools,
49:43
right? You can, you can record in your
49:44
house instead of having to pay an, you know, an engineer to get
49:47
a demo across the, you know, across the desk somewhere.
49:50
You can e-mail somebody because you can find an A&R reps e-mail
49:53
address instead of having to, you know, push ACD in front of
49:57
somebody. Or like, I have a band I used to
49:59
manage that had a he had the guy that did the singing had a band
50:03
and but he worked for a major record company.
50:06
And so he slipped his band's record in with all the A&R
50:09
stuff. And that's how they got signed,
50:12
right, Was because basically, because basically he was able to
50:15
slip his record in. But if it wasn't for his own in,
50:17
he wouldn't have been able to get his stuff in front of
50:19
anybody, you know, So I mean, so some of that kind of stuff used
50:22
to go on. But then so the other thing I
50:24
wanted to say though, that's maybe the double edged sword.
50:26
And so maybe this is your point about people who are serious and
50:28
people who aren't. So this is maybe where the
50:30
business metaphor is, is if you're serious, you're out,
50:34
you're doing all these things, you're taking advantage of all
50:36
these tools, but you're perfecting your craft, you're
50:38
out there working, you're honing your message.
50:40
You know, what is it that makes you unique?
50:41
All the things we've talked about.
50:43
But I think there's this trap with the ease of getting to
50:46
things. So ease of social media, ease of
50:48
placing an ad, ease of, you know, tweeting something out,
50:51
ease of, you know, sending an e-mail to a list of people you
50:54
don't really know. You can do all these things that
50:56
you couldn't do in 88 very easily.
50:59
But those things I'll carry with them this energy that feels like
51:02
you did something. And I think sometimes you can
51:04
feel like you did something even though you didn't really do
51:07
anything, right. So you you sent a tweet out.
51:09
And so you're like, OK, done for the day.
51:11
I got my tweet out. We're set.
51:13
You know, somebody's going to come around now.
51:15
We got we got our tweet out, you know, but the reality is you
51:18
didn't really do anything. What you should have done is
51:20
gone down to your you know 1 surviving local music store and
51:23
networked or you should have been at the concert venue for
51:25
the show that night, networking with the people running venue
51:27
or. You know, whatever.
51:29
It is, but it's. But I think that there's the the
51:31
trap of simplicity, which is things feel easier and and in
51:35
fact are easier, but I think it can also trick you into thinking
51:37
you're doing more than you're doing.
51:38
Back in the day, DJs that were actually mixing would make a
51:43
demo tape and they would go out and they would literally hustle
51:46
on the street as cars are driving by.
51:48
Hey, 5 bucks I got the CD and literally drumming up business
51:53
by getting out there knocking on windows and trying to promote
51:56
their music in a busy St. and you have St. performers.
51:59
Now that there's a guy on YouTube that I follow that
52:03
he'll, he'll go and he'll set up and he'll, he'll do a live
52:07
performance and he has a sign that says sing with me or
52:09
whatever. And then he'll get people to
52:11
come in and sing with him and he records it and puts it on
52:14
YouTube. And he's probably making more
52:16
off of his YouTube revenue than he is off of anything else just
52:20
because he's thinking outside of the box and creating something
52:23
different. And it's, it's the guys that get
52:25
out and hustle and actually work hard that are going to stand out
52:30
from, you know, the rest of the people out there.
52:32
So those are the guys, at least in, in the way that I'm talking
52:35
about it, those would be your, your people who are serious,
52:38
right? That's the guy that's really out
52:39
there trying to make a living doing this.
52:41
They're all in, you know, we're not dinking around with this
52:44
thing. We're not just, you know,
52:45
tweeting from the couch. Like I'm out, I'm hustling, I'm
52:48
working. And I think so as it pertains to
52:50
business, I think that's kind of what it is, right?
52:52
I mean, the people who are serious about business are out
52:54
doing all those things. They're not just sending the
52:56
tweet and wishing. I want to interject another
52:59
factor that let's introduce another piece, which is I have
53:05
this saying 1 long shot and three fish in a barrel.
53:10
And what I mean by that saying is when you're in any, any kind
53:15
of business, you should have one thing where you're swinging for
53:19
the fences and it's got a low probability, but it might hit
53:23
and you should have three things that are just going to work.
53:27
And one of the things that's easier to do now by far than it
53:33
was 20 or 30 years ago is to do 2 completely different careers.
53:41
One of them which is shooting fish in a barrel and makes you
53:45
money, and the other which is, well, I've got this band.
53:51
I think having a band categorically is a lousy way to
53:57
make money. He's a great.
54:00
Guy. He's a guy who started out by
54:02
designing concert posters and then evolving into a place where
54:05
people couldn't pay me for my concert posters anymore.
54:07
I can. I can relate.
54:09
It's a great way to express yourself.
54:11
It's a great way to develop your mind and your artistic skills
54:15
and all the rest. And there's a lot of jobs in the
54:19
world that will pay well that nobody really wants to do.
54:24
You be bricklaying or plumbing or carpentry or remodeling or
54:28
whatever and the band can be a side hustle and well.
54:38
It doesn't even have to be a side hustle.
54:40
It can be a passion. If you like playing music, do
54:42
it. And if you make money, great.
54:44
If you don't, you're still having fun.
54:47
You know that That's the fish in the barrel is where the money's
54:51
at. The the music and or whatever
54:53
your passion is, the art, the whatever that can possibly make
54:58
you money. But if?
54:59
It does. No big deal.
55:01
And the cherry on the sundae is the artistic stuff feeds the
55:07
business in ways that you cannot predict.
55:11
If you're out playing the bass on a Thursday night and having a
55:16
good time and performing on stage, that is generating
55:20
creative juices that when you go into the office on Friday
55:24
morning to do whatever it is that you do for a living.
55:28
I always find that artistic, creative people are better
55:33
collaborators, better employees. Like Steve Jobs said that out of
55:39
his top dozen, I don't know, engineers, designers, coders,
55:45
every single one of them had a huge place in their life for
55:48
music. So I don't even think these
55:51
things compete with each other. I don't think.
55:54
I don't think you have to saddle an artistic endeavor with a
55:58
necessity to make a profit. I think there's a 1 + 1 = 3
56:04
thing where I bake a lot of, you could call it play time into
56:13
what I do. I do science projects, I design
56:17
stereo equipment, I read books, I do all kinds of interesting
56:21
things. And I don't regard those things
56:24
as being in competition with my main day job.
56:29
I regard those things as being as feeding the creativity engine
56:35
and giving me new ways of thinking about things.
56:39
So I I think it I think not very 1 + 1 is 3.
56:43
Yeah. No, I think that's right.
56:44
And I think that, you know, making time for those kinds of
56:47
things is is probably a valuable thing.
56:49
I think it's one thing that we've kind of learned from doing
56:51
this podcast. I mean, you know, you'll be
56:53
episode or interview 400 and something.
56:56
And you know, in in these last eight years, we're talking to
57:00
all these different business leaders and stuff.
57:01
The one thing we found is that really everybody's creative.
57:04
There's not like this class of people who are creative and a
57:07
class of people who aren't that we've noticed that there's sort
57:10
of this thread that runs across everybody that's all just about
57:12
application. It's how are you applying that
57:14
creative juice that you're talking about, right?
57:16
Either I'm using it to build a new business, or I'm using it to
57:19
to grow a new audience, or I'm using it in the content I'm
57:21
creating or I'm using it, whatever.
57:23
But that it's the same juice, right?
57:25
And so it's not like, you know, the creative guy that can just
57:28
maybe sit and draw a picture, even though you couldn't draw a
57:30
stick figure. Like it doesn't matter.
57:32
Your creativity is being expressed in a different way.
57:35
And so, so I think that's a good thing.
57:36
And I think that just as people, it's important that we, you
57:39
know, are allowed to express that in one form or another.
57:42
Yeah, well, we're kind of getting to that time.
57:46
Do you want to tell people how they can reach out to you and
57:49
talk about your book closing you go to?
57:53
Perrymarshall.com you can sign up for a daily e-mail called the
57:57
Perry Marshall Minute. It's always provocative and the
58:01
the book 8020 sales and marketing.
58:03
Everybody who works should read this book.
58:07
Why? Because 8020, if you were
58:11
listening carefully earlier, the 20% is not four times more
58:16
effective than the 80, it's 16X. There's a very few things that
58:22
you do in your life that produce a huge amount of results, and
58:25
most things most people do who don't produce much of anything.
58:30
And if you go to perrymarshall.com/podcast, you
58:35
can pick up this book for $7.00 including shipping and it will
58:39
totally change your life. And you know, maybe you're a
58:43
musician like my, my son Kyler has a band and he thinks 8020
58:51
about everything. 20% of the people who came to your show
58:58
tonight have 80% of the enthusiasm.
59:01
Spend 80% of the money, do 80% of the viral marketing for you.
59:08
There's levers everywhere. So Perry
59:10
marshall.com/podcastsweet. Cool.
59:13
Well, yeah, no, it was a lot of fun Perry, really appreciate you
59:15
taking the time to sit and visit with us and you know, fun that
59:18
we got off in a little musical tangent.
59:19
Both Mike and I are our. Music.
59:21
And so whenever I do podcasts, I always think, I hope we have an
59:25
interesting tangent today. So yeah.
59:27
Well, and I'll tell you what I think music is just one of those
59:29
things that's like a, you know, it's a is a tangent, but I think
59:33
it's something that most people can relate with.
59:35
And so and it makes a strong metaphor for anything,
59:37
especially if you've ever worked around bands, then you
59:39
understand what it's like to be a, a small business owner, so to
59:42
speak. So anyway, well, thank you so
59:45
much, Perry. Appreciate you and thanks so
59:47
much to everybody who tunes into the show this week and every
59:49
week, and we'll see you guys next time.