Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #78: Interview with Mike Calvo, CEO and Co-Founder, Pneuma Solutions

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #78: Interview with Mike Calvo, CEO and Co-Founder, Pneuma Solutions · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:00
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• 1:22
  Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly
• 1:30
  podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:33
  Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 1:36
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 1:40
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 1:44
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 1:47
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
• 1:51
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 1:54
  law graduate, and podcast Commentator.
• 1:58
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 2:02
  skills and expertise in access technology and information.
• 2:07
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 2:11
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 2:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
• 2:23
  I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 2:31
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 2:35
  I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant and author,
• 2:41
  lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
• 2:47
  You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
• 2:52
  I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
• 2:59
  accessible to every Canadian, not just a sighted ones.
• 3:04
  And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
• 3:12
  disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 3:19
  And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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  Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 3:35
  When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
• 3:42
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
• 3:53
  gadgets talk back in plain language.
• 3:57
  Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
• 4:04
  everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
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  policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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  let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
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  remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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  Mike Calvo. It is my pleasure and my privilege to welcome you to my podcast.
• 4:44
  Mike Calvo: Thank you. I am I am humbled, honored and curious.
• 4:50
  Do you sleep?
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because, I mean.
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  Mike Calvo: You do so much. That's like, when do you sleep?
• 4:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's catching up with me.
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  Mike, it is just as it probably is with you as well.
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  Right.
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  Mike Calvo: Well, luckily, and I and I have a team.
• 5:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Good.
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  Mike Calvo: I have a team, and and and it's a bunch of.
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  We it's the blind army.
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  And we are we we all we all like, get somebody to tell us in what direction to
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  go and we march there.
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  But no, we. Yeah. I mean, it is it has been a challenge.
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  And as I'm sure you know, sometimes it's it's lonely doing what we do
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  because we believe it.
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  And some of us are told, don't, don't like.
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  I was told when I was a kid.
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  Don't don't shoot so high.
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  Don't be a problem. My, my favorite was be normal.
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  It's like.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What?
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  Mike Calvo: What is normal people?
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  I have no idea. But whatever it is, I'm not it.
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  And you know. So yeah, it is it is difficult.
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  I have watched you from afar and admired your tenacity and just your your chutzpah,
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  you know, and the fact that you don't Cubans.
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  I'm Cuban, and we have a saying, and it sounds gross in English,
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  but it makes sense. It says we don't have any hair on our tongue,
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  which means we don't fumble words.
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  We're real clear. And that's what I love about you.
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  You're a very direct person, and that's been awesome,
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  too.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much. But now we gotta focus on you and Mike.
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  I'd like to start with this beginning.
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  Can you share your journey as a blind technologist and entrepreneur,
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  and the key moments that shaped how you think about accessibility as a civil right,
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  rather Then as a nice to have.
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  Mike Calvo: So I grew up in Miami, Florida.
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  I'm a son of Cuban immigrants.
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  They came here in the 1960s.
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  And as I grew up in Miami, I started to I've got my training.
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  When my parents found out I was blind.
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  The Cuban culture doesn't didn't, at least at that time,
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  think very highly. Or the the Latino the Latin American culture didn't have very high
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  goals and aspirations for blind people, you know.
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  So most blind people in, in developing Latin American countries were
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  beggars in Cuba as well.
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  Ironically enough, without getting political in any way,
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  just the fact, you know, you got to give the devil his due.
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  Whether you agree with with the with the political situation in Cuba or not,
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  the group that probably gained the most value out of the revolution that took place in Cuba
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  in 1959? Is the are Cubans with disabilities?
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
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  Mike Calvo: You and I will go somewhere here in the West,
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  in the US or in Canada or even in Europe.
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  And we'll walk somewhere and we'll be standing on a street corner with our dog or
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  with our cane, and some very well-meaning sighted person will run up to you and grab
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  your arm and tell you, hey, you're about to walk into moving
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  traffic. At which point I'm like, yeah, I just my UFO just dropped me off.
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  How do you think I got here?
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  You know? And it's because, you know.
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  Well, I'm just trying to help. I'm like, yeah, I appreciate it. But the way to do that
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  is to walk up and say, sir or ma'am, I see you have a dog.
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  I see you have a cane.
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  Obviously you are visually impaired.
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  Is there anything I can do for you? At which point,
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  if I'm standing in front of four lanes of traffic and you're going across.
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  I'd be like, sure, can I grab a wing?
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  You know, I mean, it's not it's not.
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  I'm not too proud to beg, you know, and, and and,
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  you know, and and we'll do it that way. But the moment you put your hands on me and you
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  break my space, we've got a problem.
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  And and that and that.
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  I say that to preface in Cuba, on the other hand,
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  I'll go and I'll be like, hey, I'm looking for so and so restaurant.
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  And they'll the person will walk up, they'll put their hand on my shoulder and be
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  like, okay, in front of you there.
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  You see, there's a sidewalk there. Walk down.
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  Listen, you hear, on the corner over there, you hear the music over there, turn left. And
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  then if you walk down and count with your cane,
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  literally, I'm telling you, this is what the public tells you. Count with
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  your cane. Count how many doors.
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  When you get to the third door, turn right, cross the street,
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  listen for cars, cross the street and there's the restaurant you're looking for.
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  Would you like me to go with you? No, thanks. I'm good.
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  Cool. See ya. And that's the level of social respect.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
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  Mike Calvo: You asked how I got into technology.
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  I found technology when I was 21.
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  I'm not going to. I've spent a lot of time on other podcasts and stuff talking about.
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  I grew up in a very racy environment in Miami in the 1980s with drugs and,
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  you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll or sex,
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  drugs and disco, you know.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And.
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  Mike Calvo: And and so I'm not going to belabor that too much,
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  but I was heavily involved in the music industry,
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  in the drug trade when I was a young kid.
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  What I, you know, and, and as I got older I realized I needed to do
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  something with my life and my first, my first exposure besides sell drugs,
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  you know, and do music.
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  I at 21, I found that my, my girlfriend was pregnant and we were going
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  to get married, so that was cool.
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  But I, you know, I kept dreaming of my kid waking up.
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  What is your dad would do? Well, my dad's a drug dealer. He's like, no, we
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  don't want that. So I went and I got a job at a bank.
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  It was the only job I had.
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  And later I, you know, I it was the first and only job I had.
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  And the reason is because when I went to go look for another job.
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  Donna, it was such a challenge.
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  And I had been an entrepreneur all my life.
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  I started a DJ business when I was 13.
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  I, you know, and I said, you know, there's an 80% chance that a
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  business will fail in the first three years.
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  Well, there's an 85% unemployment rate amongst the blind.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely, yes.
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  Mike Calvo: So so I've got I've got better upside potential to start my own thing and,
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  and and hope that it works as opposed to spending,
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  you know out of every ten visits I get one and a half that might say yes.
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  And even then I'll get to treatment like I got at the bank,
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  which was like after six months, you know, I'm there and I'm like,
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  okay, what am I going to run this thing? You know, I'm used to being I'm used to being the
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  boss, you know? And they're like, we don't know what to do with you. People.
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  Like what?
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no.
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  Mike Calvo: And I went to my my mentor, a guy named Greg Luther,
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  who I will forever be thankful for.
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  I ran into a lot of lazy people in V.I., and I don't know if it was lazy or just
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  burned out or whatever, but Greg was just one of these guys who was
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  just so encouraging, and he said, you know what, Mike? I believe in you so
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  much. He said, you need to learn that computer.
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  And behind that computer you are an equal.
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  And that resonated with me so much.
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  And I found I had a knack for the damn thing.
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  And so I started learning how to, you know, this is back with with dos and vert
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  and all that.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
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  Mike Calvo: You know, so I learned how to script and and all that stuff at the time and started Making
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  my job better at the bank by increasing my productivity.
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  If there was going to be, there was literally a blind productivity and
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  a normal employee productivity rate, and it was stated as such.
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  And I said, well, if I'm going to be abnormal, I'm going to be abnormally awesome.
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  So I, you know, so I did that and they liked the level of productivity that I brought.
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  And they were like, hey, we want another blind one.
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  So they went, they went back to VR and Greg calls me up and he's like,
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  hey, Calvin, listen we got a guy.
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  I'm going to send him over there you know, and see if you can teach him the ropes around
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  the bank. So I trained this guy who never trained a person in my life,
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  you know? And I was like, wow, this is cool.
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  And one day Greg says to me, hey, I have a presentation at Ryder Trucks
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  that I need to do for another blind person, and all they need to do is,
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  you know, you need to connect to their mainframe. Show them. Take a computer over
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  there. Show them that you can do it. Show them that a blind person can, you know,
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  navigate and answer some questions.
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  You know. So I was like, okay. So I went and I walked into this room
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  full of supervisors.
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  Screen Reader: Notification from outlook.
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  Mike Calvo: And the first thing I said to them I'll never forget was,
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  hey everybody, it's really great to meet you.
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  And I said, I know that, you know, you see before you this really
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  gorgeous looking blind guy and you say to yourself,
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  how does he look so awesome?
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  How does his clothes match?
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  How is his hair? You know, how is that?
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  How is he so polished?
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  And I said, let me tell you a secret. I said,
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  I'm married. My wife told me.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes, indeed.
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  Mike Calvo: And I said, now, fellas, be real.
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  How many of you dressed yourself versus your wife told you that you're going to go out
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  like that because you can't tell them that.
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  You can't tell them that.
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  No, babe, you're going to go out like that. But what? You'll die. But we get told you're
• 14:39
  going to go out like that all the time.
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  So And I said, but but the reality is, I said,
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  you know, that's how I did that.
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  I make sure I look good because I have a fashion consultant for life.
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  So I said, but what what we're here to talk about is productivity and how a blind person
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  can be a constructive and contributing part of your team.
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  And that began just a love affair for me to talk to open minded,
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  open hearted people that truly are curious, you know,
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  and I've, I have struggled to separate ignorance from stupidity in people.
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  And don't I got a cure for ignorance.
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  And that's real straightforward, honest talking and communication and question
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  asking. And you know, ask me anything.
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  You know, there's no such thing as a stupid question,
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  but there are stupid people, you know.
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  And stupid is the people that just make assumptions.
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  They see, you know? Well, you're not like normal blind people.
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  You're like every other blind person. You're really special. It's like, no man,
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  no, I'm not, I'm me. I'm an individual person that happens to be visually impaired,
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  that happens to be blind.
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  And we are all different.
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  We are janitors and lawyers and moms and dads and students and all of these different
• 16:05
  things. And there are nice blind people and there are nasty blind people,
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  and there are lovable, and there are dislikable blind people.
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  Because you know what? We we took a survey a few years ago at,
• 16:17
  at at Sarah Tech, the company I used to run and and we found out that consumer habits of
• 16:23
  blind people and mainstream people, oh my goodness,
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  they're exactly the same.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, my.
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  Mike Calvo: I imagine that we're we're normal, I guess.
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  So that's kind of, you know I, I stayed at the bank for about a year and a
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  half. I ended up getting a contract with the state of Florida to train blind people.
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  And we proceeded to train over over 400 blind people in the next five years in in Florida
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  and in other states and ended up getting a federal contract.
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  And then in 1993, ish Bill Clinton cut a lot of funding for VR,
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  VR. So I ran back to the studio and trying to figure out what my next steps were,
• 17:10
  and didn't live as good as I should have for the next couple years.
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  And in 95, 96 just had a spiritual experience to just kind of took me in a different
• 17:22
  direction, took my life in a different direction,
• 17:24
  made me realize that, you know, I have a calling.
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  I've been given a gift.
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  And that gift is to really help people Understand,
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  you know, and to talk and to communicate and not get angry and not be judgmental,
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  you know? And so I took that to heart and really started to figure out where I fit.
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  And I found this thing called the internet, and I had never.
• 17:52
  So I, I'm a hustler, you know, I grew up in Miami,
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  I hustle, I walk the streets, I did whatever,
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  man. When I saw the internet, I was like, oh my goodness, I don't even need
• 18:00
  to leave home. I can just hustle right from here.
• 18:05
  And I started meeting blind people and understand I had never met a lot of blind
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  people. This is the problem that many of us had in the 70s and the 60s and the 70s.
• 18:17
  And, you know, we were we were very fragmented.
• 18:22
  At Sirotek, again, we used to call our community the disenfranchised,
• 18:26
  visually impaired, you know, because that's exactly what we were today.
• 18:31
  I mean, anyone listening to this podcast that's used to hearing podcasts and grew up
• 18:35
  with it. It wasn't like that.
• 18:37
  It was not. I mean, whenever you saw a blind person was like,
• 18:40
  what? Oh my goodness, where did you land from?
• 18:42
  You know, now they're I mean, I know hundreds and hundreds of blind people.
• 18:49
  And the internet has been the great equalizer.
• 18:51
  It really literally has leveled the playing field in many ways.
• 18:55
  And, I mean, we could we could, you know, get the nitty gritty of
• 18:58
  accessibility and all of that. But for the most part,
• 19:01
  this, this thing we call the internet has given us as a community an opportunity to
• 19:06
  organize and to mature our community.
• 19:11
  And in 1999 I put out a product called the Radio Webcaster,
• 19:17
  which would allow you to transmit audio from your computer to an FM radio.
• 19:23
  And a bunch of blind people started buying it.
• 19:27
  I was like, oh my God, these people got money.
• 19:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know.
• 19:30
  Mike Calvo: These people. I was still there.
• 19:32
  I mean, I'm ashamed to say I was still it was still a me versus them.
• 19:35
  It was just like, yeah, you never you never met,
• 19:38
  you know, you never met blind people.
• 19:40
  And the ones that I did were multiple handicapped folks.
• 19:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:45
  Mike Calvo: You know, so it was like, yeah, you know, and and I mean,
• 19:49
  that that even reflected later when I got a guide dog because I was like, I'm not going
• 19:52
  to have my dog. I don't, I can't, I don't have to do,
• 19:54
  you know, I don't have to feed my cane, you know,
• 19:56
  put my life in the hands of a dog, for Pete's sakes.
• 19:59
  You know, and, and and all of a sudden, people I deeply respected are,
• 20:05
  like, hauling ass with their dog.
• 20:08
  And I'm like, okay, wait, guys, catch up.
• 20:10
  I'm coming with the stick.
• 20:12
  Like, listen, why don't you just grab my arm and we're gonna. And I walked with this blind
• 20:16
  person sighted guide with their guide dog.
• 20:18
  Shh. Not supposed to do that, but, man, I we flew and I was in love.
• 20:24
  I was like, oh my goodness, I gotta have one.
• 20:28
  And I got I got a dog later.
• 20:30
  But in 1999 people started buying this product.
• 20:35
  And blind people, as we we would be to do, we would do we they started telling,
• 20:41
  well, it would be great if it did this.
• 20:43
  And if it did that, it did the other.
• 20:45
  Well, in 2001 created a company called Sirotek and.
• 20:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Stop you right there, because I want to know I want to move on a
• 20:53
  bit. When you look back at your Sirotek years,
• 21:00
  what do you see as the biggest breakthroughs you helped to pioneer,
• 21:07
  and what lessons from that era directly influenced how you built humor solutions?
• 21:16
  Mike Calvo: Oh, wow. I learned, I think, I think I learned the power of us as a
• 21:23
  community, the power of us.
• 21:26
  I realized I met some really awesome people.
• 21:30
  Jeff Bishop, Daryl Hilliker all of the Jim Snowbarger.
• 21:36
  Jonathan Mosen just so many people that that were that were my my just my mentors,
• 21:44
  my friends, my role models.
• 21:48
  And I realized, man, I can do this and understand,
• 21:51
  you know, I'm a drop out of high school.
• 21:53
  I have no formal education whatsoever.
• 21:56
  None. And you know one of the reasons I work so much to do what I do and believe so much
• 22:05
  in the law of accessibility.
• 22:09
  508504 is because I got in just at the beginning of those 504 50508I mean,
• 22:19
  had just been done. So when I was in school, in elementary school,
• 22:23
  and in junior high and high school, it was. They were still working out the kinks
• 22:26
  in the in the system. But, you know, the law is so important because it
• 22:32
  makes people stop or it should make people stop.
• 22:37
  And, you know, think about this underserved community or how they can help this person.
• 22:44
  And I realized that there was an 85% unemployment rate amongst the visually
• 22:51
  impaired back in 2001.
• 22:54
  And in my naive 30 some odd brain, I'm like,
• 22:58
  you know, technology, technology is going to change this,
• 23:00
  man. You watch, we're going to we're going to eat the world.
• 23:03
  And and I had a developer that I'd met on a, on a,
• 23:07
  on a board named Matt Campbell.
• 23:09
  And, and he was just this young kid voice hardly even changed.
• 23:14
  And he started I talked to him and he was just like a super nerd and told him what I
• 23:19
  was doing. And he's like, I can help you with that.
• 23:23
  Okay, so Matt started.
• 23:25
  He was he was the first person that started working with.
• 23:27
  And we we we built the first freedom box.
• 23:32
  And I realized, you know, because at that time,
• 23:36
  blind people could get on the web, but you needed to be really nerdy,
• 23:40
  you know, and use Linux, or you needed to be really wealthy and be
• 23:45
  able to afford jaws, you know.
• 23:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on. Yes.
• 23:49
  Mike Calvo: You know, so I said, I don't care about the 9 to 5.
• 23:53
  I mean, obviously I do, but my my job is more about the 5 p.m.
• 23:59
  to 9 a.m. people. What am I going to do?
• 24:02
  What are they going to do? How are they going to get entertained? And the biggest thing
• 24:05
  going at that time was like web TV, you know,
• 24:09
  I said, well, let me make an accessible web TV,
• 24:11
  which is what Freedom Box was.
• 24:13
  It was kind of a an Alexa, sorry if anybody's machines off an a lady for
• 24:18
  the for the 20th century.
• 24:22
  And 21st century, I guess.
• 24:24
  But she it it was an amazing product that people really started taking to and again,
• 24:32
  started it just evolved into a screen reader.
• 24:36
  I realized we needed a little screen reader because while everything we did online was
• 24:40
  online, but there was still some software that people needed to use on their computer.
• 24:46
  And we, you know, you had to spend $1,100 for Jaws,
• 24:50
  or we came up with something called system access,
• 24:53
  and system access was a screen reader, but it was we didn't want to lie and call it
• 24:57
  a screen reader. So we called it System Access,
• 25:01
  Accessible access to your system.
• 25:03
  That's it. And all it could do is run in windows and stuff.
• 25:06
  So, so essay to Go was used by, you know, thousands of people everywhere.
• 25:11
  And it just showed me that, wow, if we build something,
• 25:15
  we can really give blind people an opportunity to be upwardly mobile.
• 25:19
  And this is before mobile phones and all that stuff.
• 25:21
  I mean, you know, mobile.
• 25:24
  I think I think things like the iPhone and even Android have just literally changed our
• 25:28
  lives as blind people.
• 25:29
  Yeah, but before that, the computer was all we had.
• 25:32
  And I'm sure you remember, you know, our blind friends with that look
• 25:36
  like little pack mules with their big old backpack on their back full of computer
• 25:39
  technology. Oh my goodness.
• 25:41
  To go to a conference. And you got that blind person that didn't realize how big their
• 25:46
  backpack is and smacks people with it?
• 25:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No I know. Yes, I remember that.
• 25:51
  Mike Calvo: I love it. But what we what what we did at Sirotek was we created a community.
• 25:57
  We created podcasts through the talk network.
• 26:02
  And from there we have great people.
• 26:05
  Rikki Enger, Joe Steenkamp, Lisa Salinger, Richard Wells,
• 26:10
  buddy buddy buddy Brannon.
• 26:16
  Yeah, just all of these.
• 26:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, buddy.
• 26:18
  Mike Calvo: I remember all of these people that Brian Kivlahan people that that are,
• 26:23
  that are, you know, really still even active in the community.
• 26:28
  And they started with us and I was so honored to work with that team.
• 26:33
  And we worked together for a number of years.
• 26:36
  In 2017, my business partner got very ill and passed away last year but stepped down in
• 26:46
  2017, and we tried to keep the business up for a while,
• 26:50
  and it just, it couldn't.
• 26:52
  So our lawyers just said, you know, we're going to close it down.
• 26:56
  And and we basically just rebranded and, and,
• 27:01
  you know, and reopened the company pneuma in 2019,
• 27:05
  Matt had left Sirotek and started working at Microsoft on the narrator team.
• 27:11
  And we had some ideas.
• 27:13
  I mean, Matt and I built seven products together.
• 27:15
  We built, you know we built dock scan, plus we built an accessible meeting platform.
• 27:22
  We built remote incident manager Rim in 2007.
• 27:26
  A lot of people don't know Rim is from 2007.
• 27:30
  So we were the first remote.
• 27:33
  Excuse me? We were the first accessible remote platform out there.
• 27:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 27:39
  Mike Calvo: So it was it was very cool.
• 27:40
  And now, you know the the the reality is, you know,
• 27:46
  I go where I'm needed.
• 27:48
  You know, I don't I'm not going to, you know,
• 27:50
  I have no sacred cows, you know and to me, it's a matter of saying,
• 27:56
  you know the consumer space is not necessarily where a company is going to make
• 28:03
  its money anymore in our community, because there's just not enough,
• 28:08
  enough income. You know, the sad truth of the matter is that,
• 28:11
  you know, I came into this community developing software with an 85% unemployment
• 28:17
  rate and did some really earth shattering stuff with technology,
• 28:23
  us and others. And they're still in 85% unemployment rate.
• 28:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah.
• 28:28
  Mike Calvo: And as I said earlier, it's a social problem.
• 28:31
  It is not a technical one.
• 28:32
  We we are capable. And I was honored to be part of of a very nice elite group of people
• 28:41
  that had to do with the web accessibility standards,
• 28:43
  that had to do with UI automation and, and all of that good stuff that all of these,
• 28:49
  you know, the wcaG the wcaG standards, all of that stuff.
• 28:54
  We worked to do that and to see that organizations are not doing this is just so
• 29:01
  sad. Which is why I think the law, as much as I'd love for people just to be
• 29:07
  nice and do it, that's where the law is.
• 29:10
  I mean, that's just the world we live in. You're you're not going to get,
• 29:13
  you know you're not going to get enough.
• 29:15
  And the sad thing is there's some reality to it.
• 29:18
  I mean, you know in a restaurant, how many blind people go in a year,
• 29:23
  you know?
• 29:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely true.
• 29:25
  Mike Calvo: You name your restaurant, yet that restaurant is required to have
• 29:29
  Braille menus. You know, so, you know, the way I do it is,
• 29:33
  you know. And now, thank God we've got, like, Covid gave us QR codes on the table.
• 29:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So.
• 29:39
  Mike Calvo: So yeah, I love it. And and if not, you just wave your phone around and see if it
• 29:44
  gets a QR code somewhere.
• 29:45
  And and and and now, of course, the meta glasses.
• 29:49
  I mean, there's so many options, but you know,
• 29:52
  but back then it was just dreaming, man.
• 29:54
  We, we we really wanted to change the world and we,
• 29:58
  you know, and and it was we to this day, the sad thing,
• 30:02
  the sad truth is to this day, I don't know where my next paycheck is coming
• 30:08
  from, you know. We have we built pneuma to be an what we call an augmented media
• 30:18
  remediation company, which means we remediate digital media.
• 30:22
  We make we make you know, PDFs.
• 30:25
  We tag them, we make them wcaG compliant.
• 30:28
  We do scribe for documents, which converts any,
• 30:32
  any printable document to an accessible format,
• 30:36
  be it large print, Braille, MP3, daisy, all of that stuff.
• 30:42
  And, you know, we we have a number, a couple of enterprise customers for Rim.
• 30:51
  Because we brought Rim back in 2021 because we needed to make some money and and money
• 30:57
  wasn't coming in from scribe for documents.
• 30:59
  The technology wasn't where it needed to be yet.
• 31:02
  So we brought Rim in and that sustained us.
• 31:04
  And then, you know when title two came up, we were like,
• 31:08
  yes, you know, we're going to be able to do this.
• 31:10
  And And then AI started coming along and was like,
• 31:12
  wow, this is cool. And then then, you know, the current administration came
• 31:19
  into office.
• 31:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Never mind.
• 31:24
  Mike Calvo: And they rolled up Di with accessibility.
• 31:28
  And I have a very big heart for diversity, equity and inclusion.
• 31:34
  I believe it's a right. I believe that people have the right to be themselves,
• 31:37
  love who they want, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But sorry,
• 31:40
  blindness doesn't fit in that.
• 31:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No.
• 31:43
  Mike Calvo: It does not. And there are laws, you know, while di for the most part,
• 31:48
  in many, especially for folks that live alternative lifestyles,
• 31:51
  is a a social problem, blindness and the remedies to to deal with
• 31:59
  blind people in public places are laws, and those laws need to be adhered to.
• 32:07
  And unfortunately what we found is that very few organizations,
• 32:12
  because of the political climate we're in, which historically,
• 32:16
  interestingly enough, a Republican started the Ada and the
• 32:20
  Republicans have been the worst embracing it ever.
• 32:26
  But, you know, we're this year, we're hoping we're we're pounding the
• 32:30
  pavement because title two the the laws over in Canada,
• 32:35
  the Aoda law in Canada, the European accessibility act,
• 32:41
  all of these different acts are hopefully getting people to come to us and remediate
• 32:47
  lots of documents. We've created a technology,
• 32:50
  Donna, that is just really, really amazing.
• 32:54
  It creates wcaG aligned documents tagged PDF,
• 33:00
  and we can do hundreds of thousands of pages a day.
• 33:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Are people coming to you, Mike?
• 33:08
  Mike Calvo: We I am restricted contractually of saying who.
• 33:12
  Yes. In in a public setting.
• 33:16
  But yes, we have had some we had one big customer last year.
• 33:20
  That was how we, you know, that's how we lived.
• 33:22
  That's how the company survived this year.
• 33:25
  We're living on what's left over from that and we're moving forward.
• 33:29
  We're, you know I've been here a long time and I've,
• 33:33
  you know, lived on the edge for a long time.
• 33:35
  I'm not I'm not used to three digits.
• 33:37
  I, I'm not I'm not scared.
• 33:38
  I'm not, I'm not used to I'm not scared of three digits in the bank when they need to
• 33:41
  be, you know I've been in a company with $100 in the bank,
• 33:47
  you know.
• 33:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But it takes a special type of person, trust me.
• 33:52
  I've lived off the edge many, many times.
• 33:54
  Aaron would tell you that my dear friend Aaron.
• 33:57
  And Aaron has encouraged me to.
• 33:59
  Donna, you can't give up.
• 34:00
  Donna. No. Donna. No. And I'm saying, oh, God.
• 34:03
  Aaron, I don't know how much longer I could take this,
• 34:05
  you know? But you're right.
• 34:07
  It takes a special type of person like yourself.
• 34:11
  And we need more of you.
• 34:14
  Mike Calvo: And you. It's it's the audacity of hope.
• 34:17
  I think Barack Obama said it.
• 34:19
  It's the audacity of hope.
• 34:21
  How dare you hope, Donna, how dare you, blind person,
• 34:23
  step out of the, you know, the little public,
• 34:26
  the little public frame that that the world has put you in that little box where you can
• 34:30
  maybe do this and do that, but you couldn't possibly do that,
• 34:33
  you know? How dare you, you know, dream and actually accomplish those
• 34:38
  dreams. And for me, that's that's what it's all about.
• 34:41
  My kids. I gotta tell you, I've got five beautiful children.
• 34:45
  Advertisement: Oh.
• 34:46
  Mike Calvo: And my my wife has two, so we have seven between us.
• 34:49
  Okay. And five of them are girls.
• 34:53
  Yeah. Someone. Some would call that karma.
• 34:56
  Yeah. Yeah. Women's have been.
• 34:58
  Women have been a big part of my life.
• 35:00
  So but to me, you know I got to be able to look at my kids,
• 35:07
  and they got to look at me with respect.
• 35:08
  I'm dad.
• 35:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 35:10
  Mike Calvo: You know what I'm saying? And and and if I, if I show,
• 35:16
  you know, not weakness because I believe in being transparent.
• 35:21
  I had a very sordid childhood.
• 35:23
  My children know what I used to do.
• 35:25
  My children. I'm not that you know better than thou.
• 35:28
  I was this way, and now I would have never done that.
• 35:31
  I did it all. I did what I needed to do.
• 35:33
  I did what I wanted to do when I was younger.
• 35:36
  And I just believe very much in owning your stuff.
• 35:41
  You know this is a rated G show, so we'll keep it there,
• 35:45
  but owning your stuff.
• 35:47
  And don't be a jerk, you know?
• 35:48
  I mean, you know, be honest with people, be honest to self and understand that
• 35:54
  everybody gets scared, you know?
• 35:58
  Yes. Everybody gets concerned.
• 36:00
  There is not. I've been speaking in public for 25 years or more.
• 36:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 36:06
  Mike Calvo: There is not one time that I go up there that I'm like,
• 36:09
  oh yeah, I got this. No.
• 36:12
  Every time there's butterflies in the stomach,
• 36:15
  there's, oh my God, am I going to do okay?
• 36:17
  Am I going to stay on track?
• 36:18
  Am I going to remember my notes?
• 36:20
  Are people are people going to be, you know,
• 36:22
  changed from this because the whole idea of going up there is not to get a stipend or get
• 36:27
  a payment. It's to change people's lives.
• 36:31
  It's to make people say wow and to remind them there is absolutely no difference
• 36:36
  between you and me, except for that you're you and I'm me.
• 36:42
  Aside from that, we're the same.
• 36:45
  Which means that we are all unique.
• 36:47
  I'm not looking to do things the way you do them,
• 36:50
  but I do want to know how.
• 36:52
  And you don't need to be doing everything the way I do.
• 36:55
  But let me help you, and you know, and we will get through this.
• 36:59
  One of the one of the most awesome things I used to enjoy was going to the conferences
• 37:04
  and watching a big old herd of blind people trying to get somewhere.
• 37:08
  Absolutely hilarious.
• 37:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm sorry. That is so descriptive.
• 37:13
  And it is so very.
• 37:15
  Mike Calvo: Oh, it's like, you know, everybody's like.
• 37:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Mike Calvo: And and and the thing about it is that what I noticed is sighted people are intimidated by
• 37:24
  you or me on our own, but let a whole bunch of blind people come up
• 37:29
  to a sighted person be like, oh, yeah, come on.
• 37:31
  And they having a great time with. Oh, and everybody's laughing and they're taking
• 37:34
  us and you know, it grabs they do the conga line thing where one blind person grabs the
• 37:38
  sighted person's arm, and then everybody starts running after them.
• 37:41
  And we got a hell of a show going on at the hotel,
• 37:43
  you know? But it's fun and it's the power of us,
• 37:47
  and it's the power of people sharing with other people.
• 37:51
  Hey, if you go down to the lobby and you listen,
• 37:53
  you hear there's a water fountain and and watch it because it echoes.
• 37:58
  So when you're walking through, you need to listen carefully because it's
• 38:01
  going to be on your left. But it might sound like it's coming from your right.
• 38:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
• 38:04
  Mike Calvo: Yes. You know, things like that.
• 38:06
  That it is the power of us.
• 38:09
  The power of us. The power of communication, the power of technology,
• 38:13
  the power to say we can as a community and that we have as a community.
• 38:20
  Things really suck right now in the way of in accessibility circles.
• 38:25
  They don't look very promising in many respects.
• 38:29
  But you know what? But we're going to do this.
• 38:31
  We're going to get through this.
• 38:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How are you planning to do this, Mike?
• 38:36
  Are you going to continue with your I don't know what what word I'm looking for to
• 38:43
  describe you dynamic. You know, what is next for you on the drawing board.
• 38:52
  You know, tell me, show me.
• 38:54
  Mike Calvo: So I'm I'm going to continue to do what we're doing with scribe Matt,
• 38:59
  my business partner who used to be my CTO.
• 39:01
  My son David just joined our team last year.
• 39:04
  He's our AI genius. David graduated from Johns Hopkins top three in his class.
• 39:09
  Oh yeah, very smart young man.
• 39:13
  And he just got married.
• 39:15
  And so, you know, I'm I'm going through that.
• 39:18
  I'm watching my kids grow up, and I'm like, oh,
• 39:21
  my God, I did that.
• 39:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're responsible for.
• 39:24
  Mike Calvo: It. You know, we did that, you know, and and it's like,
• 39:28
  it's so amazing to watch them and to and to realize,
• 39:33
  you know, so many of us feel unworthy when your kid says,
• 39:36
  yeah, but dad, you said, I'm like, yeah, nobody else gives a shit what
• 39:40
  excuse the darn about what I say, why should you?
• 39:45
  You know, because I'm your son.
• 39:46
  I'm your daughter, I love you, you know, you set an example for me,
• 39:50
  you know, and my kids are open minded.
• 39:54
  They are. They are transparent people that ask questions and want to know.
• 40:01
  So for me, I'm just going to continue to to help people.
• 40:04
  I mean, I believe very strongly that I have a calling and that calling is to help,
• 40:13
  you know, just to help people understand life and,
• 40:15
  and the challenges that it comes and to encourage people you know,
• 40:20
  and, and and to into our, our, our, our sighted friends or people that
• 40:25
  are listening. I have a talk that I used to do.
• 40:28
  It's called no excuses.
• 40:30
  And and you know, we as blind people, society gives us every excuse to do
• 40:36
  absolutely nothing, and they'll be cool with it.
• 40:40
  What do you do? Blind person?
• 40:42
  No, nothing. I sit at home and read talking books.
• 40:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In my rocking chair, I watch TV.
• 40:46
  Mike Calvo: Oh, good for you. Oh my God.
• 40:48
  But you live alone, right?
• 40:50
  Yeah. Nobody wants to share.
• 40:52
  My. Nobody wants my lazy butt.
• 40:54
  But but yeah, I mean, but you know what?
• 40:59
  I refuse to accept those excuses because if you don't,
• 41:04
  you know, there are some very legitimate reasons for things.
• 41:08
  And, I mean, listen, I, you know flight simulator is a great thing,
• 41:12
  but you're never going to see my blind behind a in a in a in an airplane flying it,
• 41:16
  you know? So that's a, that's not an excuse.
• 41:19
  That's a reality check.
• 41:21
  But I don't want to do this because this will fail.
• 41:24
  And and so what? You know what?
• 41:26
  Failure isn't isn't not something not working out for you.
• 41:31
  It's never getting up off your booty and doing it.
• 41:34
  It's never it's saying it's it's saying, okay,
• 41:37
  I've got this way. I want this to work, but I need to be flexible.
• 41:42
  I need to be like that. Bamboo.
• 41:44
  You ever seen how bamboo?
• 41:46
  A shoot of bamboo. You can bend it all the way down to the floor.
• 41:49
  And you. And then when you let it and it goes down,
• 41:53
  and then when you let it up, it bounces back up and you can never see the
• 41:56
  crease of the bend because it bounces back.
• 42:00
  And that's what we need to do as blind folks.
• 42:02
  We need to be bamboo. We need to be.
• 42:03
  And I'm not saying to be people's, you know,
• 42:06
  emotional verbal punching bag or any of that kind of thing.
• 42:09
  But you know what? Really?
• 42:11
  Count your battles, man. Sometimes, again, separate the stupid from the ignorant.
• 42:15
  If you've got that Uber driver that you know didn't like your dog or whatever,
• 42:20
  he's pretty stupid. But are you going to really ruin the rest of your day over it?
• 42:25
  Are you really going to go home to your family or go into your office pissed off
• 42:31
  because you ran into a stupid person?
• 42:33
  You know how many, how many stupid people those sighted people ran into in traffic that
• 42:37
  morning, you know? So so to me, it's it's just a matter of really just being
• 42:42
  available, you know, here I'm, I'm older now.
• 42:46
  I've got experiences that I can share.
• 42:48
  I'm not angry anymore.
• 42:51
  And that's. I don't know about you Donna or the listeners,
• 42:55
  but as I've gotten older, I've gotten less angry because it's like,
• 43:01
  you know, I told you when I was 20, I.
• 43:03
  When I was in my 20s, I swore I knew everything.
• 43:05
  And then when I got into my 30s, I realized that I may not know as much as I
• 43:09
  thought I did when I got into my 40s.
• 43:12
  I'm like, I don't know nothing.
• 43:14
  I'm here to learn. And then for whatever reason,
• 43:16
  when I hit 50, it just didn't matter anymore.
• 43:18
  This is who I am. Take it or leave it, man.
• 43:20
  I'm good.
• 43:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But it takes a lot of confidence to say that.
• 43:24
  And I'm presently engaged in developing camps for for kids leaving high school and those
• 43:30
  young adults. And the mission here is if you believe you can achieve.
• 43:37
  Mike Calvo: But Amen.
• 43:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's not easy. And as our clock winds down, I want to ask you this.
• 43:43
  What's next for Mike?
• 43:45
  Mike Calvo: I don't know, I, I don't know, I you know, Donna,
• 43:51
  I'll tell you something. You know, I. I love Steve Jobs.
• 43:55
  Steve Jobs is Steve. Steve Jobs has every right to be and totally was a narcissist.
• 44:04
  Why? Because Steve Jobs is one of the only people I can think of that can stand in front
• 44:09
  of a mirror and look and say, if I hadn't come,
• 44:12
  the world would be different.
• 44:15
  And Amen.
• 44:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Amen. Amen.
• 44:17
  Mike Calvo: Amen. Yeah. Listen, Steve, wherever you're at,
• 44:21
  you can you you can be as narcissistic as you want,
• 44:24
  dude, because you are absolutely right.
• 44:26
  The world would have been different.
• 44:28
  It would have been different for millions and millions and millions of people.
• 44:33
  There are billions, literally billions of accessible devices in this world behind
• 44:41
  places where you and I could have never gotten things to 30 years ago.
• 44:45
  20 years ago.
• 44:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Agreed.
• 44:47
  Mike Calvo: You know, so.
• 44:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My hero, home.
• 44:49
  Mike Calvo: I don't know, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm here I speak to groups,
• 44:56
  I speak you know, we remediate documents.
• 44:59
  We're, you know, we're we're here and and we're going to keep,
• 45:03
  keep working in this community.
• 45:05
  And I forgot to mention earlier, I have to comment.
• 45:07
  Aaron has been such a blessing to me as well.
• 45:10
  Aaron is a super encouraging human being.
• 45:13
  And there's a there's a special place for him in my heart because.
• 45:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Me too.
• 45:18
  Mike Calvo: He has he has truly just been inspirational to me,
• 45:23
  encouraging to me. And and the guy happens to know what he's doing.
• 45:27
  So.
• 45:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I mean, Aaron is special.
• 45:30
  Aaron is my friend for life, my associate, my mentor,
• 45:34
  my advisor. You know, I don't know what else to say about the man.
• 45:38
  I don't think he sleeps.
• 45:40
  Mike Calvo: Yeah. Listen, same back at you.
• 45:43
  You know, Donna, it has been an honor to be here and to finally meet the woman behind the
• 45:50
  legend.
• 45:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Please.
• 45:53
  Mike Calvo: No. Seriously?
• 45:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You ever come to Canada?
• 45:56
  Mike Calvo: I do every once in a while.
• 45:58
  And in fact, I was thinking about My wife's daughter's grandparents live up there,
• 46:04
  and we were thinking about going there, and if you ever want a guest speaker at one
• 46:09
  of those at one of those camps be it even remote or whatever,
• 46:12
  I would be happy to do it.
• 46:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will probably be calling on you like we have two camps that we're developing right
• 46:20
  now. One is the. To have Air Canada has given me a certain number of tickets to fly
• 46:28
  participants to the I retreat camp next July,
• 46:31
  2027. Doctor Allen Chase and the other camp is we're developing it to be able to hold a
• 46:40
  camp in Quebec, camp Massawippi.
• 46:43
  We're working on that, but we have to find the funding.
• 46:47
  And I would be delighted to ask you to be a guest speaker.
• 46:52
  Mike Calvo: Let me know.
• 46:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If anybody else. Yes.
• 46:54
  Mike Calvo: I I'll tell you. For me, as a kid, camp was life changing.
• 46:59
  It was a great social experience.
• 47:03
  You know kissed my first girl at camp, you know.
• 47:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Secrets are coming out.
• 47:08
  Mike Calvo: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was it was a great time.
• 47:11
  The Florida Lions camp was was and and, you know,
• 47:15
  we went in and we did normal quote unquote stuff.
• 47:19
  Rode horses. You know, went swimming in the lake.
• 47:22
  You know, learn to clean our room, learn to fold our our,
• 47:25
  you know, make our beds and all that stuff.
• 47:28
  Camp, camp and independent living facilities to me are so important to our community.
• 47:35
  There are no lone rangers in the blindness community.
• 47:37
  If you are recently visually impaired, find find a blind person to shadow or 2 or 5
• 47:45
  or ten. Get involved in a group.
• 47:47
  Listen. Blindness, you know, just to be honest,
• 47:50
  is a pain in the behind, you know, but it is not unsurpassable.
• 47:55
  We've got more problems with the way people see us than the way we see ourselves,
• 48:00
  you know? So you know, if we can get beyond that,
• 48:04
  if we can support one another, you know, count me in,
• 48:08
  count me in. And thank you again for, for for inviting me to your program.
• 48:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has been a true pleasure and honor, and I hope we find an opportunity to work
• 48:17
  together. I really, really do.
• 48:20
  Mike Calvo: Let me know.
• 48:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I will be in touch.
• 48:23
  But again, thank you, Mike.
• 48:25
  Mike Calvo: Thank you.
• 48:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. You take care now.
• 48:29
  Mike Calvo: You too.
• 48:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 48:31
  Mike Calvo: Oh, by the way, by the way.
• 48:32
  Wait wait wait wait. You may want to give this. We may we may want to give this to
• 48:35
  Aaron. Aaron I'm going to give contact information.
• 48:41
  So Donna, if anybody wants to reach out to me I have a very open door policy.
• 48:48
  You can visit you can email me at Michael.
• 48:53
  That's c a l v as in Victor o at pneuma solutions.com.
• 48:59
  And I'm going to spell pneuma because it's a little strange.
• 49:02
  It's p n e u m a.
• 49:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: R.
• 49:05
  Mike Calvo: Solutions.com. I put the p in there just to tick off blind people.
• 49:12
  It's actually a, it's actually a Greek word, but.
• 49:15
  And the other and the other thing that we run that I'm very proud of is called title two.
• 49:20
  Title number 2.info. And if you want to know about upcoming laws and,
• 49:26
  you know, go to your local, whatever, whatever your local you know,
• 49:32
  your local place of business government business any,
• 49:37
  any, any kind of place that has inaccessible PDFs and if they need to comply with title
• 49:43
  two, they've got a very short time to do it in.
• 49:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know.
• 49:46
  Mike Calvo: So point them at that resource.
• 49:49
  Yeah. You know and and advocate folks advocate for yourself because you know,
• 49:55
  we've got groups that do it.
• 49:56
  But individual advocacy is so important anyway.
• 50:01
  So thanks again.
• 50:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what I'd like to do is reach out to you about my camps if you believe you can
• 50:08
  achieve. And I think we can do magic together.
• 50:11
  Mike Calvo: I agree. Let's do it.
• 50:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Mike. Thank you.
• 50:15
  Mike Calvo: Thank you. Donna.
• 50:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care.
• 50:17
  Mike Calvo: All right. You too.
• 50:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bye. Bye now. Bye bye.
• 50:20
  Bye.
• 50:24
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com.
• 50:30
  Until next time.