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What Is Equitation Worth Now? · Two Point Perspective

• 0:00
  A few weeks ago, the USHJA held a town hall around 1.
• 0:05
  Should there be prize money in equitation?
• 0:09
  To me, equitation was always the basis of writing.
• 0:14
  You learned to ride correctly because that was the foundation for everything else.
• 0:20
  And the equitation ring was just a place where you tested those skills.
• 0:25
  But now it can lead to major finals, college opportunities, specialized horses, and maybe even prize money.
• 0:35
  So it still starts with learning to ride, but now that's not where it stops.
• 0:41
  This is two point perspective.
• 0:43
  Two riders with different viewpoints from different generations talking about the same sport.
• 0:51
  Katherine Schmidt Butler is with us today and she is really the perfect person to have in this conversation.
• 0:57
  Katherine is my trainer now, but she came through Heritage Farms as a working student, rode for the University of South Carolina, and had an extraordinary collegiate career.
• 1:08
  She turned professional and now runs her own program here in Virginia.
• 1:13
  And Reynolds was on the IHSA team at Randolph College and won the 2014 National National Championship in novice equitation on the flat.
• 1:23
  So the two of you had very different college writing experiences.
• 1:28
  Reynolds at Randolph in IHSA and Catherine at South Carolina in ncea.
• 1:35
  Which means I get to ask the questions today.
• 1:39
  It's probably a good thing.
• 1:40
  Probably.
• 1:41
  But I think the first thing we should say is that equitation has always mattered.
• 1:46
  There have always been parts of the country where it was a particularly big focus.
• 1:52
  The Northeast certainly comes to mind with programs built around the metal, the McClay and all of those major finals.
• 1:59
  But equitation wasn't confined to just one part of the country.
• 2:03
  I mean, I grew up in Georgia and I think we had a very solid equitation program.
• 2:10
  And the Maclay itself has always been a national goal with riders from all over the country that had the opportunity to qualify.
• 2:18
  So, Katherine, when you were coming through Heritage, what was equitation actually teaching you?
• 2:25
  I don't mean what you had to do to win the class, but what were they trying to teach you to do As a rider?
• 2:32
  There's a really big emphasis on riding correctly and riding accurately, whether that's in your track, as you're, as you're jumping a course in your position, being an effective and correct rider and understanding how to deliver like a, a
• 2:54
  good round in what other, whatever discipline you may do be doing, whether it's hunters or jumpers in the future.
• 3:00
  And what I saw is a lot of my peers have gone on to be professionals and, and ride all sorts of different horses effectively correctly, train them correctly, and have success in different disciplines.
• 3:15
  I'm just curious when you go to a place like Heritage, is the goal there?
• 3:20
  When you walk in, do you know that it's going to be equitation, or is it everything?
• 3:25
  For me, as a working student, the goal was equitation.
• 3:29
  I arrived there for my first lesson, and we were preparing for Maclay Regionals.
• 3:36
  And from there, for me, it was equitation.
• 3:38
  Equitation, Equitation.
• 3:39
  And I did a lot of catch riding in the jumpers with my other trainer, Darren Graziano, who actually introduced me to Heritage Farm.
• 3:48
  For me, in my path, it was equitation.
• 3:51
  There were other clients there that had hunters and jumpers themselves.
• 3:55
  But as a working student, I rode a lot of Heritage equitation horses that they personally own.
• 4:01
  And for me, my focus was equitation.
• 4:05
  Since I only had those horses to ride, I was set on a very specific path, but that path led me to be successful in other areas of riding as well.
• 4:15
  Right.
• 4:15
  It's interesting because Jeff Thiel wrote something recently that stood out to me, and he talks about the ability to lengthen, shorten, make the turn work, get the horse more responsive.
• 4:25
  Basically, if something isn't right, you should know how to do something about it.
• 4:31
  And when I read that, I thought, yes, that's exactly how I was taught.
• 4:35
  And he talks about producing horses, not just piloting them.
• 4:40
  And that may be the best explanation I've heard for why I'm always saying I want to do it.
• 4:47
  I was taught to ride my horse, to make the adjustments, to fix the problems, to figure it out.
• 4:54
  And so for me, I like the challenge.
• 4:56
  I want to try to fix it myself.
• 4:59
  And.
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  And I'm willing to make the mistake if that's how I learn.
• 5:03
  And I always thought that's kind of what equitation was.
• 5:08
  Yeah, I mean, for sure.
• 5:11
  Learning how to accurately.
• 5:14
  Again, I'm going to sound like a broken record.
• 5:15
  Accurately and effectively ride your horse in your position.
• 5:18
  How does your position make your horse go the best?
• 5:21
  How does it make you the strongest, most effective rider?
• 5:24
  And we know that classical equitation that we've all been taught from our first lesson, keep your heels down, keep your eyes up.
• 5:31
  That.
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  And.
• 5:32
  And then the flat work, the flat work, the length and the shortening, like those things are all about.
• 5:38
  Equitation's all about that.
• 5:39
  You don't have a single equitation course where you're not asked to move up and slow down in a line.
• 5:44
  So, for sure, there is a lot of overlap between what you're describing in your personal riding and flat work and what we're learning today in modern equitation.
• 5:55
  What's really interesting about that is talking about lengthening and shortening.
• 5:58
  Like, yes, it's part of equitation and, and what you're going to be tested on when you go down that path and into that specific discipline of riding.
• 6:07
  But it carries over, like you're saying, into everything.
• 6:10
  Like, you've got to know how to move up, shorten, lengthen, all of those things when you're doing the hunters or the jumpers.
• 6:17
  So while you're being tested on it in a specific fashion.
• 6:19
  And the equitation discipline, it's not like it doesn't carry over.
• 6:24
  Yeah.
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  And I also think, like, there's a difference between preparing a horse to do its job and then also making it so there's never a mistake to be had.
• 6:33
  Like, at some point you, you're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna have to learn from them that way.
• 6:37
  Totally.
• 6:37
  I do think that there is the stigma of like perfection in the equation ring too, which is challenging and, and can make you go crazy because you go nerd.
• 6:50
  It's a little the same in the hunters.
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  Like, oh my God, a late lead change has totally ruined my beautiful jumping round.
• 6:57
  But the attention to detail that you learn in the equitation is so beneficial, like for doing the jumpers, for doing hunter derbies, for knowing how to manage your horse's speed and stride and land the leads and ask effectively
• 7:12
  for a lead change.
• 7:13
  It all translates over for sure.
• 7:15
  The, the challenging thing about the equitation is that there's a stigma around it where you need to look perfect.
• 7:20
  And that can overlap into the, into the hunters too, where one silly mislead change could throw you out of contention for a ribbon if you have a beautiful jumping round.
• 7:32
  Um, but the beautiful thing about it is that it's teaching you to be effective and pay attention to the smallest details.
• 7:41
  So that way when you're.
• 7:42
  If you're doing a jump off or a hunter derby, a handy, you can effectively land leads or get lead changes.
• 7:49
  Ride, ride the horse mindfully paying attention to details.
• 7:53
  That's what that, that perfection in the equitation is as mind numbing as it can be.
• 7:57
  It translates over as you're entering into new classes.
• 8:02
  Well, I think it also gives you the ability to better make adjustments on horses that you're not familiar with.
• 8:10
  I think that that was one of the things that it.
• 8:13
  Granted, I obviously had a different background growing up than you did, but when I got into college and was riding a ton of different Horses, some that had all the buttons, some that had none of them.
• 8:24
  I became way more effective just in that because I was sitting on so many different things.
• 8:30
  Yeah.
• 8:30
  And I mean, my mind was ever so slightly blown when I first started doing it because it almost felt like I didn't know what I was doing in a way.
• 8:39
  And it was being taught how to use the tools that I did have and the strengths that I did have and translate that onto the horse that I was on that day.
• 8:48
  You know, I think it can get like very tunnel vision when you're just on your own horse.
• 8:52
  I mean, there's like pros and cons to that on both sides, but that's one of the things that I loved the most that I got out of.
• 8:57
  I mean, I did equitation obviously as a junior, but not.
• 9:00
  I was way more thrown into it in college.
• 9:02
  I think it seems like now these days the horse becomes specialized too.
• 9:07
  And so Katherine, I would ask you, what do you, what would you say makes a really good equitation horse?
• 9:14
  I know we have a few, we.
• 9:16
  Do have a few.
• 9:17
  We're lucky to have some really good ones.
• 9:19
  If I'm looking for a horse that's going to do a medal in Maclay finals, talent search finals, and now there's such a broad spectrum of national finals that the 36 height, the 33 height, 3 foot height, which is
• 9:34
  wonderful and, and it allows a lot of different people and horses to do a national championship for a, for an upper level 36 equitation horse.
• 9:44
  You're going to want scope and stride because a lot of questions are asked that are requiring a little bit of power underneath you.
• 9:54
  But the beautiful thing about the 3 foot and the 33 agitation finals is maybe those horses that are a little bit more limited and how high they can jump, what their stride is, they're getting a chance to still
• 10:06
  show off their talents and be recognized for the wonderful animals that they are in those.
• 10:12
  For example, my sister's horse, diva, she's 15 three and she is brave.
• 10:18
  She lands both leads.
• 10:20
  She's beautiful on the flat, she counter canters all the lateral work, all the things you want to see in an equitation horse, but there's no way she's ever going to jump 3 foot 6.
• 10:28
  She's tiny and her stride is little.
• 10:30
  And Chloe and Stiva have won the state finals multiple times.
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  They've gone to the National Horse Show.
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  They've qualified for Ariat finals.
• 10:39
  So I love a horse that's brave and, and broke on, broke on the flat.
• 10:44
  And I love to see that.
• 10:46
  Now these other levels of championships are allowing other horses that have those qualities to be showcased as well.
• 10:54
  Yeah.
• 10:54
  And it seems like they don't have to be great movers and they don't have to be the biggest jumpers, but they just have to be really ridable, adjustable and comfortable so that the rider can get what she wants
• 11:05
  to do done.
• 11:05
  Yeah, it seems like that's the case.
• 11:08
  So do you think that.
• 11:10
  I'm just always curious, like, I see sometimes people say this horse is an equitation horse, and they really make the distinction between this horse is not a hunter, but it is an equitation horse.
• 11:23
  Can you explain a little bit more about why you think that comes up that way?
• 11:28
  Well, everyone wants a good mover if they're a hunter.
• 11:30
  Right.
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  So everyone wants to win the hack.
• 11:35
  I think a lot of horses that could be beautiful hunters end up being equitation horses because they're bad movers.
• 11:41
  And you can have a really good jumper in the equitation, but you don't want a horse that cracks its back.
• 11:46
  So if you have a really round jumping horse that's going to be a hunter, if you have a medium moving horse that jumps cute, it'll probably cross over into both.
• 11:57
  So for sure, the hunters want the movers and the.
• 12:00
  And the equitation horses want the flat jumpers.
• 12:03
  So somewhere along the way, they kind of get funnels down their correct paths.
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  And do you feel like, Katherine, that most.
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  Or like, where do you see it falling?
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  Like, where most riders or kids doing the equitation have a separate horse for the equitation, a separate horse for the hunters or jumpers.
• 12:22
  Or do you see more of a crossover or do you kind of see both?
• 12:26
  I think you see a little bit of everything.
• 12:28
  I see a lot of kids that have a horse that's very competitive in the equitation that will also go and do hunter derbies and win 100 derbies because they're so brave and they're so handy.
• 12:38
  You see a lot of junior jumpers that cross over into the talent search classes, and you might have a kid that only has one horse, and that specific horse can sometimes do all three rings.
• 12:51
  So it's really a variation of depending on the family's financial status and what they can afford to do.
• 12:57
  You know, you might have three different specialized horses or you might have one.
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  Hopefully you're lucky to find one that can do a little bit of everything, because they're out there, they're hard to find.
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  But they're out there.
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  You told me, Katherine, something that I think is important here.
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  You said your parents helped with some of the cost while we're talking about kids with two horses or one or whatever.
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  But you also said that you were a working student, so maybe those opportunities happened in a different way or what.
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  What did being a working student actually make possible for you?
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  I was very lucky to have trainers that noticed my ability, but also my passion for this and kind of introduced me to the right people.
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  It was kind of like a chain reaction.
• 13:45
  One trainer introduced me to another, introduced me to another.
• 13:49
  By the time I was a working student at Heritage, I was competing, like in the 3 foot 6 and doing some equitation and some hunters and jumpers with my other trainer, Darren, but he was not specialized in the
• 14:03
  equitation.
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  He certainly was knowledgeable and certainly I learned so much from.
• 14:08
  From him.
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  I give him so much credit in my career.
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  But Andre has the top equitation horses.
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  So in becoming a working student there, I suddenly was riding horses that had.
• 14:22
  I'd seen pictures of in the Chronicle.
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  You know what I mean?
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  Like, just like, yeah, a pinch me, like, dream come true moment.
• 14:31
  It was kind of hard to believe it was happening to me, but it really was the access to the horses that were just top level and then access to top, top training and specialized equitation training that I had
• 14:47
  not received before.
• 14:48
  But I think it's really neat that your trainer, who obviously taught you so much, had the ability to say, this isn't my area of expertise.
• 15:00
  Yep.
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  So I'm going to put in the call.
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  And I feel like in some situations, I feel like it makes.
• 15:07
  It makes a difference to me, like in a trainer and how they can look at a situation and say, if these are your goals and this is what you want to do, I have taken you and I can
• 15:16
  keep taking you.
• 15:17
  But if you really, really want to do this, this is where I think having the ability to let go in that way to better their student that they have taught and see them succeed.
• 15:28
  And I think that that's so cool that that is, you know, that was possible for you.
• 15:32
  Because I think sometimes people can get stuck in the situations where that's just not the case.
• 15:36
  100% true.
• 15:37
  And going back to just having the working student situation in that perspective.
• 15:44
  Now you're seeing this from the trainer side and you have kids in the barn who have different financial situations.
• 15:52
  So you can have one kid whose family has the means and very much wants that college team path for her and you can have another kid working in the barn, trying incredibly hard, but their family just doesn't have
• 16:04
  that kind of money.
• 16:06
  So when you see that in real life, in your opinion, how much does money determine?
• 16:12
  Who gets enough opportunities to get good, build the record, qualify, and eventually get noticed.
• 16:19
  Yeah.
• 16:19
  That's where the sport can be frustrating.
• 16:22
  Right.
• 16:22
  Because you can see the top level, the kids that have a lot of financial means that are buying up the top horses in the top programs and succeeding.
• 16:33
  You've got your kid at your farm that's working her ass off and you're like, I wish I could get you that horse.
• 16:39
  I wish I could be you.
• 16:40
  So it's hard.
• 16:41
  Yeah.
• 16:41
  All I can do in that situation is, first of all, work ethic is everything.
• 16:48
  If you're a kid that wants to go be on a team and you're not riding at one of these top programs and you're not top 25 in the equitation finals, don't panic.
• 16:58
  Work, working hard, attending camps as much as you can.
• 17:02
  As a trainer, I can look out for catch riding opportunities, try to teach lessons on different horses in the barn.
• 17:08
  Like, trying to provide as many experiences for that rider as I can is hugely beneficial and something that I try to do for them in those scenarios.
• 17:17
  And again, like if, if you want it, if, if you're a hard worker and you're putting in the hours and you're watching and learning, that is huge.
• 17:27
  If you're a kid who just goes through the motions, comes, gets on, gets off and leaves.
• 17:31
  And you say you want to go to a school, you say you want to succeed, there's so much more that you can achieve if you fully immerse yourself than just saying you want something.
• 17:44
  So I think it goes both ways.
• 17:45
  Well, it's very much so, yeah.
• 17:47
  Like the trainer has to put in the effort and then the kid has to show up and do their homework as well.
• 17:53
  And that's where this idea of a college opportunity to me really changes everything.
• 17:58
  Because when I was that age, a college writing team wasn't even an option.
• 18:03
  They didn't exist.
• 18:04
  And so if anything, I didn't want to go to college.
• 18:09
  I really wanted to keep riding.
• 18:11
  And of course that wasn't an option.
• 18:14
  So what changed for you all, both of you, once you were riding in college?
• 18:20
  I think I knew.
• 18:22
  I mean, at that time I had my horse and it was important to me to continue riding in school.
• 18:30
  And so the horse that I had was a, was a three foot horse.
• 18:33
  I mean, he might have been able to do and did sometimes do like a 3, 3 class here and there.
• 18:38
  But he really wasn' built to be jumping any bigger than that.
• 18:41
  And I don't think that they came out with like three.
• 18:44
  No.
• 18:45
  You're gonna.
• 18:45
  Three Equitation.
• 18:46
  Yes.
• 18:47
  Yeah.
• 18:48
  Like, I think like the year that I aged out is like the year that those things became a thing.
• 18:53
  So for me, I didn't have, I shouldn't say, like I didn't have the opportunity.
• 18:59
  I would say that I also like didn't harshly pursue the high level equitation track.
• 19:03
  I mean, I was obsessed with looking at it and watching it and that kind of thing.
• 19:06
  But for me, I wanted to ride in school and I wanted to be able to take my horse with me if that was a possibility.
• 19:12
  So I started looking at schools that had riding teams that I thought would sort of mesh with mine.
• 19:17
  But I knew that that was going to be IHSA versus the ncea, which is a whole different ball game.
• 19:22
  But I mean, in terms of my writing, I don't know, I think it made me more dedicated, quite honestly, because then I was juggling like, I mean, you can attest to that too.
• 19:29
  It's.
• 19:30
  You really have to.
• 19:31
  Your time management is like very, very important.
• 19:33
  Yes.
• 19:34
  So for sure there was a moment I took a gap year after I, my last junior year before I went to college and I was working full time as a working student.
• 19:44
  And I specifically remember sitting at the ring in Wellington thinking, I don't want to go to college.
• 19:52
  And a very good mentor trainer friend said, you need to go to college.
• 19:59
  This is going to be.
• 20:01
  You need to go to college.
• 20:02
  And I said, okay.
• 20:03
  I listened to, but thank God I did because college was such a positive experience for me.
• 20:10
  Yeah.
• 20:11
  And I, and like you said, Reynolds, it is a lot of work.
• 20:15
  That is certainly true.
• 20:17
  You're.
• 20:17
  You're basically working a full time job.
• 20:21
  But it was an experience like no other for me.
• 20:25
  I mean like we went to the football games and we went to the other sporting events and you know, the team of, my team of girls throughout my four years was really wonderful as far as my riding goes.
• 20:36
  You know, I always, I had, I had good confidence going into college and was successful as a junior.
• 20:42
  But suddenly I was really successful in college and like with my peers at other schools who I'd been competing against as a junior.
• 20:51
  And I was like, really successful and I was like, damn, like I could, I can ride.
• 20:57
  Like I can ride any of these horses I can ride.
• 21:01
  That's like a thanks to all of the trainers I had as a kid and all of the different horses, like Fox Hunters.
• 21:07
  There's like such a confidence boost, though.
• 21:10
  Yeah, like, exactly.
• 21:12
  No, like, I, I rode some really, really amazing horses at the end of my junior career.
• 21:16
  But, like, growing up on and, you know, at college run, it was like, you ride all different types, right?
• 21:21
  So many, so many types.
• 21:23
  So when things were going so well at school, I was like, this is like, okay, like, I.
• 21:28
  I really can do this.
• 21:29
  And so that gave me a lot of confidence into my professional years, too.
• 21:33
  But it was, it was.
• 21:35
  It's a lot of work, but it's a really fulfilling path to go down.
• 21:39
  Very.
• 21:39
  In both of your cases, you had to take whatever you'd learned before college and make it work on a horse you didn't really know.
• 21:46
  And I totally, so appreciate that.
• 21:50
  It really, it says a lot.
• 21:52
  I was not very familiar with that because I was used to just riding my horse and occasionally I'd sit on a friend's horse.
• 21:58
  But my first practice, I got put on a horse that quite literally was one of the best horses in the barn.
• 22:04
  I mean, he knew everything.
• 22:06
  He was a old dog at this.
• 22:09
  And I couldn't make the horse canter.
• 22:11
  And I was like, opposite of you a little bit.
• 22:14
  I went, I might be really bad at this.
• 22:18
  Oh, God.
• 22:19
  And obviously that didn't last very long, but it was eye opening to me, just sort of like areas where I lacked.
• 22:27
  And I think that that was.
• 22:28
  What was so cool, is because I got to ride so many different ones.
• 22:31
  I really got a feel for and being confident on other horses that weren't mine.
• 22:37
  Yeah.
• 22:37
  And, you know, like, some of them, like, they, it's.
• 22:39
  It's interesting because I think, like, everybody assumes that every horse that comes into a college program, like, has all the tricks and has all the buttons, and that's not the case.
• 22:48
  Like, some of them are donated because they're safe and they're really good citizens, but, like, they don't have a great lead change.
• 22:53
  And so they were like, okay, well, you're not going to make it in this, you know, in the show world.
• 22:57
  So you should.
• 22:58
  You could get some different project things that were fun, fun to work with, I thought, but yeah, you would have to draw names out of a hat and that kind of thing to.
• 23:06
  That's what you'd show that day or whatever.
• 23:08
  It was a little alarming.
• 23:10
  It is alarming.
• 23:11
  Yeah.
• 23:12
  But so, Katherine, now you're helping kids who want the same opportunity.
• 23:17
  And when one of them says, I want A ride in college.
• 23:21
  What are you actually trying to prepare them for?
• 23:24
  So a lot of college coaches are recruiting out of the equitation ring because when you ride in school, you're judged on your equitation.
• 23:33
  It's all on the rider.
• 23:34
  So I'm, I'm trying to prepare my kids to be successful in the eyes of the coaches in equitation championships.
• 23:44
  And, and then working backwards from that, you have to lay out a path for them.
• 23:48
  Right.
• 23:48
  It's okay.
• 23:49
  They come to me at 13 years old and they say I want to ride in college.
• 23:53
  And I'm like, okay, you're 13 now.
• 23:56
  What are the steps I need to go to?
• 23:58
  What through what do I, I need to prepare you for in the next four years that I can have you riding at a three step, three foot six equitation level to be able to catch their eye.
• 24:09
  So it's a lot of understanding of different types of horses to ride, which is where catch riding and lessening on different horses comes in when possible.
• 24:18
  And just teaching the fundamentals of good flat work and good, good effective riding over a course of jumps and those basic elements.
• 24:27
  I'm curious, when it comes to recruiting, how much does the resume matter compared to what they, how they actually ride?
• 24:35
  Like I, my sons played lacrosse in school and in college and I remember doing the recruitment videos for them and it was really not so much like how much they won, but a coach was able to see their
• 24:52
  moves and how they played.
• 24:54
  I'm going to just say, because I think yours, what you're going to say is very different.
• 24:58
  Like I would say, Elizabeth, that was sort of more similar to my experience with ihsa.
• 25:03
  Like I sent in a video, I talked to coaches, I spoke to them about their programs and that kind of thing, but I wasn't.
• 25:09
  I've got to go to this showcase.
• 25:10
  I've got to make sure that these classes are under my belt and that kind of thing, which I think you'll, you'll speak to.
• 25:14
  But that is a huge difference, I think.
• 25:16
  Yeah, I mean maybe that's not the way it is now, but it was then.
• 25:19
  I think that's true.
• 25:19
  I mean, I personally, I mean it was a long time ago when I was recruited.
• 25:23
  I didn't know what I wanted to do for college and I was reached out to by the coach at South Carolina after Junior Hunter finals when where I caught, rode a couple of horses and then from there the
• 25:36
  rest is history.
• 25:37
  But I think a lot of today's kids are getting recruited out of scouting at Devon or indoors.
• 25:46
  But, but that's not to say that if you send in your videos, if you have connect, like connections with your trainer, has connections with a coach or something, there are other ways to catch a coach's eye than just
• 26:00
  being at those horse shows and, and being successful.
• 26:03
  And in that same vein, I've seen multiple times where a kid has come in as a really big recruit because they've won a lot at, at the national level and then they go and they're not necessarily a starter
• 26:16
  because maybe the scrappy kid who grew up more on the, on the different types of horses, they can ride all different types and they're suddenly being very successful.
• 26:27
  Whereas the big recruit not starting one trick pony.
• 26:32
  Yeah, yeah.
• 26:33
  Well, for example, the plaid horse looked at the 20, 26 division one signing class and I think there were 49 riders.
• 26:42
  And the average rider had competed at 21 horse shows in a year and they had entered around 200 classes and shown about nine horses.
• 26:54
  And I don't know if, if that meant that, you know, clearly it didn't mean that somebody owned nine horses and it certainly doesn't mean that one horse went to 21 shows.
• 27:05
  Although they could have.
• 27:07
  I mean, those could be catch rides or sales horses or trainers horses, all kinds of opportunities.
• 27:13
  But I know that when I mentioned that to you, we were talking about that the other day, you had a pretty strong reaction and I'm just curious like your thoughts on that.
• 27:23
  It is, it is very.
• 27:25
  Gosh, I can't remember exactly what I said the other day, but it is exhausting.
• 27:32
  If you think about all of those horses that are in all those classes that are going and showing and to me that's.
• 27:38
  It's way too much, right?
• 27:40
  You get burnt out, you get people that are resenting the sport first of all.
• 27:48
  But for me, no, it's too much.
• 27:50
  And like as a trainer now, when I'm looking at trying to keep my clients horses sound and not and thinking about longevity, right?
• 27:59
  Like I want them to have a horse to show next month, next year.
• 28:02
  That's, that's too much.
• 28:03
  Like, that's.
• 28:04
  And it's hard, it's hard to keep up with the people that can go and go and go and go.
• 28:08
  That's where you have to try to make the most of the horses that you do do and videotape them and send in the rounds, upload the runs to YouTube, like make sure every little moment in the show ring
• 28:19
  counts because we're not doing 21 shows a year.
• 28:24
  Freaking insane.
• 28:25
  Yeah, that's almost two shows a month.
• 28:28
  And obviously, if you're talking about a Division 1 level, it can't be that they're going to some local show down the road.
• 28:35
  That's not what's counting.
• 28:36
  They gotta be going.
• 28:37
  It's wec, it's wef, it's whatever, week in, week out.
• 28:42
  And somebody was saying that at Wellington, you can almost do two shows in one week or two divisions in one week.
• 28:50
  Is that true?
• 28:51
  Well, I do know, like, there's a lot of places that have, like, equitation Tuesdays.
• 28:55
  Like, if you go to Vermont, you can do all the equitation classes at Hit Hits has them.
• 29:00
  I think you can do all the equitation classes on Tuesday to get points.
• 29:04
  And then you do all of the classes throughout the week too.
• 29:07
  So it's like, great that you have the opportunity for.
• 29:10
  I did not know that.
• 29:11
  But then you're jumping your versus Likes.
• 29:14
  Yeah.
• 29:14
  Yeah.
• 29:15
  That's intense.
• 29:16
  That's really intense.
• 29:17
  And just do the math.
• 29:19
  I recently showed in an A show and all I did was to USHJ practice classes and my adult amateur division, and my show bill was $881.
• 29:32
  I mean, I hauled myself and that doesn't include training fees, hotels, or my meals.
• 29:39
  And so somebody else didn't.
• 29:42
  Yeah, exactly.
• 29:47
  But I mean, somebody else easily could have spent 1500-2000 by the time you add all those things in.
• 29:55
  So 21 horse shows is not just a lot of riding, but it can be an enormous amount of money.
• 30:02
  Yeah.
• 30:03
  I think that's where for me, like, as a working student, I was able to cut some of those costs.
• 30:09
  The entry fees obviously were.
• 30:11
  We have to pay those.
• 30:12
  But I was able to show a lot.
• 30:15
  I showed a lot because it was a little bit.
• 30:18
  A little bit more affordable for my parents because I was working to work off some of the expense.
• 30:24
  But it's right.
• 30:26
  This is where the sport has gotten quite frustrating.
• 30:30
  When you are passionate about competing and passionate about succeeding, and you see people who are as talented as you are, whatever, have nice horses like you do, and they're going and going and going and going, and you maybe
• 30:43
  feel like you're falling behind a little bit because you're not showing as much.
• 30:47
  But in the long run, you're saving your horse and I think you're being a better horseman.
• 30:54
  I am totally in agreeance with you on that.
• 30:58
  But I can also say that as a teenager, if we're talking about going into school, that's a hard pill to swallow.
• 31:06
  It's a Hard sort of thing to be like, okay, I am going to come out the better horseman for this in the long run.
• 31:12
  Even if this person is going like, I think I had the grit, the drive, the determination to be able to do some 3, 6 stuff, but I didn't have the horse to do it.
• 31:21
  And the way it all played out was exactly how it should have.
• 31:24
  So it's fine.
• 31:24
  But it's also like a little hard to kind of.
• 31:27
  And I think now too, especially in the age of where you can compare yourself to somebody on social media in two and a half seconds, it's not just the person you see at the horse show, right?
• 31:35
  Like that you're competing against that day.
• 31:36
  It's like a constant thing.
• 31:38
  I just think that your mentality and like what you're teaching is so important.
• 31:41
  And the way that especially like the way that you came up and being like, you know, we're not going to do it this way, but these are some of the other things we can do to get you noticed.
• 31:50
  But we're not going to.
• 31:51
  Not at the price of your horse, which I think is so important.
• 31:55
  My next question, and I think we've touched on this a little bit, but what does happen after college?
• 32:01
  A lot of people work so hard, spend so much money to get to this trek and I suppose for some it's just a method to get into school.
• 32:12
  Like I said, my son played lacrosse and I know for sure that he got into a school that he probably wouldn't have gotten into had it not been for the sport.
• 32:23
  So there's that.
• 32:24
  But then I have a feeling, like you said before, there's enough kids that were your friends and they were on a real track.
• 32:33
  So I'm just curious, what did you do after college?
• 32:37
  I immediately went professional and.
• 32:43
  And I showed.
• 32:44
  I worked for Darren Graziano, who is who I mentioned earlier, set me up with Andre and Heritage Farm and he did a lot of sales at the time.
• 32:54
  So I showed hunters and jumpers.
• 32:56
  I jumped a few Grand Prix.
• 32:58
  I went with them to Wellington for the full season, which I had done as a junior, but as well.
• 33:04
  But I went for the season.
• 33:06
  I got burnt out.
• 33:08
  I'll say loud and clear, I got burnt out.
• 33:10
  And it was nothing to do with Darren or his horses or anything.
• 33:14
  It really was.
• 33:15
  I was just like, ah, geez, like, this is a lot.
• 33:19
  So I went back to school, I got my MBA and moved to Virginia to be with my now husband.
• 33:25
  And I was working for a tech startup in marketing.
• 33:28
  And now, strange twist of Events.
• 33:32
  I have my own business and I'm doing it professionally.
• 33:36
  So, you know, it was kind of like a funny path.
• 33:40
  But I, I love what I do.
• 33:42
  And what I'm working on now is trying to find balance, because I think a lot, this is a whole different subject, but this industry is, is wrought with, with burnout and, and there is no work life balance.
• 33:56
  So that's what I'm trying to, to figure out for myself.
• 33:59
  And that's my goal.
• 34:00
  I appreciate that so much.
• 34:03
  I mean, I completely understand how that goes, because it is, it's a lot.
• 34:08
  But let's go back to the USHA town hall, because there was a lot of feedback about that.
• 34:14
  And I don't think it was a rule change that was already sitting there waiting to happen.
• 34:19
  It was just a conversation about whether prize money in equitation was something worth pursuing.
• 34:26
  And right now, equitation, whether it's juniors or amateurs, there's obviously no prize money like there is for hunters and jumpers.
• 34:35
  And one of the arguments in favor came from Cissy Wicks, and her point was pretty simple.
• 34:41
  Horse showing is expensive, so prize money could at least offset some of those costs.
• 34:47
  And after looking at what people are spending, I understand that if you win $1,000, that's $1,000 you didn't have before, and, and it might pay for some very small part of the weekend.
• 35:02
  But I personally am not a fan of the idea of giving prize money in the equitation.
• 35:07
  I think that is only going to cause a scenario where horses are getting drilled more.
• 35:15
  Like there's more pressure to succeed, there's more, more emphasis on, on winning so that you can win your prize, winning prize money back.
• 35:23
  But at the end of the day, like, there's no way that the amount of money that you could potentially win is going to make a difference.
• 35:30
  Just like you said, Elizabeth, like a small $1,000 check is paying your entry and you still have training and shipping and braiding and tipping and, and it's endless.
• 35:40
  So I appreciate the thought, but I think the system, to be honest, is too flawed.
• 35:46
  It's too expensive to horse show in this country.
• 35:48
  You hear about showing in Europe and how much more it is and how much more for the young horses, for the young riders, the show horseshoeing, the United States has gotten way expensive.
• 36:02
  And I don't think that offering prize money in the equitation is an answer.
• 36:06
  I think there needs to be a bigger look at the, the cost.
• 36:10
  Right.
• 36:10
  And try to rework that.
• 36:12
  Somehow the whole thing is kind of backwards A little bit.
• 36:14
  Because if you've got, let's say, a working student kid who doesn't necessarily have the top tier horse, then chances are they're probably not going to have the opportunity to win at the highest level.
• 36:28
  Therefore, whatever money that they are winning isn't helping make it more accessible for them to compete in the first place.
• 36:37
  And then another thing to think about is if money starts being part of classes, does that start changing the decisions that people make about where they're going to go show how often they show or how long they keep
• 36:47
  a horse going?
• 36:48
  Because.
• 36:49
  And I think that's where the welfare concern had come up at the town hall.
• 36:53
  Not that the prize money was automatically bad, but that, as you said, Reynolds, could it create one more reason to keep pushing?
• 37:02
  Nobody's proposed exactly how much money that they're even talking about.
• 37:06
  And so it would have to be so much money.
• 37:09
  I kind of think that the money even offered for juniors and amateurs is a joke.
• 37:16
  Like when you win $8 for a fourth place big.
• 37:22
  I think the only time it ever makes any sense is if it's a derby or a classic or something where it's like a few hundred bucks.
• 37:30
  What we are seeing is that even at the top level these kids actually can ride because.
• 37:37
  Oh yeah, I get, I guess the little bit of a distinction to me is like you said, when they're used to just riding their own horse, they haven't really had the opportunity.
• 37:46
  And they may have just this saintly horse that does everything, but they are asked to do so many different things.
• 37:55
  And I think that there's a lot of stuff that maybe in a big at class they're asked to do that people really don't realize how much they're being asked to do.
• 38:06
  I agree.
• 38:06
  I think you look at the kids that are in the top 25 at Madeleine McClay Finals and those are very talented, very hardworking kids.
• 38:14
  They're basically little professionals, Right.
• 38:17
  They grow up on the back of a horse.
• 38:19
  A lot of them.
• 38:20
  If you look at JJ Toronto and Olivia Sweetnam and the likes of the.
• 38:25
  Those kids and Taylor.
• 38:26
  Yeah.
• 38:27
  And they are riding at another level, you know, because they have.
• 38:31
  Well, in those three scenarios, those kids we just named, all three of them are growing up with amazing professional parents.
• 38:39
  Right.
• 38:39
  So when you have those kids that are from day one mounted on the very best pony and they're riding amazing animals all the way through and having positive, maybe not all the time, but generally positive experience as they're
• 38:54
  moving up the levels, it is so hard to compete with that confidence.
• 38:59
  They are walking in that ring with so much confidence because they've always been well mounted and well coached.
• 39:05
  Right.
• 39:06
  And so the kid that's there on that one horse that they.
• 39:10
  There's their pride and joy, and they're just happy to be there, and they're just happy to get around, which is.
• 39:16
  Which is a huge accomplishment in itself, not taking away from that at all.
• 39:20
  It's just such a spectrum.
• 39:22
  Right.
• 39:22
  And the kids.
• 39:24
  And I'm not saying it has to be a professional's kid that's successful.
• 39:27
  There are other kids that have made it there, too, but they are very good and very talented and very well educated is a big part of it.
• 39:35
  Right.
• 39:35
  I have to laugh because certainly for my crowd, we're not getting recruited and we're not going to the McLay, and we don't need specialized equitation horses, but we still need all the things we need.
• 39:48
  The balance, the rhythm, the track, and the ability to make the adjustment without getting in their horse's way.
• 39:53
  And I know I'm still trying to ride better, but when you're teaching adults like me, how much of what we're working on comes back to those same.
• 40:03
  Basics, all of it.
• 40:06
  And that might sound more like, oh, God, your whole life, you're working on your pace and your track and your position, but all of it is important all the time.
• 40:15
  You know, I always.
• 40:16
  I always say, like, your.
• 40:18
  Your pace and track, your two ingredients to.
• 40:20
  To find a distance.
• 40:22
  We talk about it endlessly all day long.
• 40:24
  We talk about your position, Elizabeth.
• 40:26
  All day.
• 40:29
  Release.
• 40:30
  Um, but.
• 40:32
  But there's a reason.
• 40:33
  Yes.
• 40:33
  Good job.
• 40:34
  There's a reason why we're taught the way that we are.
• 40:37
  Because it works.
• 40:39
  And our horses go better and we ride better if we follow those guidelines.
• 40:44
  That's right.
• 40:44
  I feel like as an adult, those.
• 40:46
  All of those things get worked into our lessons like they have to, because we might not be getting drilled on the equitation, but it's.
• 40:53
  It all comes back around.
• 40:55
  It's all going to get used again.
• 40:57
  And so that's why it's important to have in the first place.
• 40:59
  Yep.
• 41:00
  I definitely think my aging going on my shoulders have progressively gotten slightly more round and not being yelled at as.
• 41:06
  Often as I should.
• 41:07
  Yeah.
• 41:08
  Yeah.
• 41:08
  I watched a video from the last horse show I did, and I said to Lindsay, I was watching myself cater up the diagonal line, and I was like.
• 41:13
  Like, what the hell am I doing?
• 41:16
  Somebody needs to tell me to sit up.
• 41:18
  I'm, like, hunched over again.
• 41:21
  I'M like, oh, my God.
• 41:22
  You're like, who is that guy?
• 41:24
  Who's that guy?
• 41:25
  Well, but, you know, all of us sit and look at our phone all day long, so we are.
• 41:31
  Yeah, we're getting linked around.
• 41:32
  Yeah, we are.
• 41:33
  Yeah, it's.
• 41:34
  It's bad.
• 41:35
  But anyway, I guess with all the new opportunities, different medals, finals, college pass, and now maybe prize money, learning how to ride well is really still the point.
• 41:47
  So until next week.
• 41:49
  Let's ride.
• 41:49
  Let's ride.