Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #003 Jason Flom with Sunny Jacobs

Transcript

#003 Jason Flom with Sunny Jacobs · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.
0:07
Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first
0:09
Speaker 1: day of my high school year. I was gonna be
0:12
Speaker 1: a senior at twenty two, I was set to start college.
0:15
Speaker 1: I woke up and my life was never the same again.
0:19
Speaker 2: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw
0:22
Speaker 2: freedom ever since after that.
0:24
Speaker 1: It's like roach Moe Town. Once you get in, you
0:27
Speaker 1: and I can't now.
0:30
Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flommer today we have
0:49
Speaker 3: a very special guest, Sunny Jacob's one of my favorite
0:53
Speaker 3: people in the world. Sunny Jacob's story is as crazy
0:58
Speaker 3: as it can get. Is that fair to say, Sonny?
1:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
1:00
Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy. So Sonny was wrongfully convicted in nineteen
1:05
Speaker 3: seventy six. I'm particularly thrilled today because joining Sonny in
1:10
Speaker 3: the studio with me is her Well. I could call
1:14
Speaker 3: you a new husband, Peter Fringle. It's a few years now,
1:16
Speaker 3: but he's still a new husband. And Sonny's daughter, Christina Tafarah,
1:22
Speaker 3: is going to speak today publicly for the first time ever.
1:25
Speaker 3: So Sonny, Peter, Christina, welcome to Ronful conviction very much,
1:30
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jase. So, Sonny, let's go back to the beginning.
1:33
Speaker 3: You were living where at the time that this all
1:37
Speaker 3: went down.
1:39
Speaker 2: At the time that this happened, we had been living
1:43
Speaker 2: in North Carolina, but Jesse had gone down to Florida
1:47
Speaker 2: with the promise of some work and we ended up
1:52
Speaker 2: joining him down there.
1:54
Speaker 3: So he went down there originally to do some work
1:56
Speaker 3: in Florida. But you went down with the two kids
1:59
Speaker 3: afterwards to meet him. Yes, right, And then when you
2:02
Speaker 3: went down there, your car broke down. Is that what
2:05
Speaker 3: happens how this all started?
2:06
Speaker 2: Pretty much, that's how it all started, right.
2:09
Speaker 3: So your car broke down. Now you're stranded in Florida.
2:11
Speaker 3: You got to get back home, right, right, So take
2:14
Speaker 3: us through it. What happens next? You were offered a ride,
2:17
Speaker 3: which was turned out to be a you know, the
2:20
Speaker 3: beginning of the beginning of the terrible Saga of Sonny Jacobs,
2:23
Speaker 3: which so fill us in filling the audience.
2:27
Speaker 2: Well, the card broken down, and Jesse asked a friend
2:32
Speaker 2: of his to give us a lift, and we were
2:36
Speaker 2: going to go someplace where he knew someone where we
2:40
Speaker 2: could stay and wait for my parents to send some money.
2:43
Speaker 2: So we could get back home to North Carolina.
2:45
Speaker 3: Right, but then you end up you end up actually
2:48
Speaker 3: taking a rest in the car when this.
2:50
Speaker 2: Happened, right, yeah, we pulled into a rest area off the.
2:54
Speaker 3: Highway in Florida.
2:56
Speaker 2: Yep, in Florida. This was and I was in the
3:00
Speaker 2: back with the two children. Now, my son at the
3:02
Speaker 2: time was nine years old. My daughter was only ten
3:05
Speaker 2: months old. She was still nursing, right, yeah, she was
3:08
Speaker 2: a baby. And so Jess was in the passenger seat
3:13
Speaker 2: and his friend who's driving, And then so we were
3:18
Speaker 2: sleeping in the car in the rest area. Nothing was
3:20
Speaker 2: going on, there was no crime being committed, there was
3:24
Speaker 2: no reason for anybody to.
3:25
Speaker 3: It seems like an unlikely place for everything to.
3:28
Speaker 2: Go wrong completely, I mean in your sleep.
3:30
Speaker 3: Now, just to give you a visual. By the way,
3:32
Speaker 3: if you would meet Sonny, you would see that she
3:34
Speaker 3: looks like the least likely person who have ever served
3:36
Speaker 3: time in anything other than you know, it looks like
3:41
Speaker 3: some of you would meet in a coffee shop or
3:43
Speaker 3: a in a theater or something. I mean, she's the
3:47
Speaker 3: least likely person to have ever served time on death road.
3:49
Speaker 2: At the time, I was, besides being a young wife
3:53
Speaker 2: and mother. I was also a hippie, you know, like.
3:56
Speaker 3: Still a hippie.
3:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, cool. It was a hippie and a vegetarian. So
4:02
Speaker 2: I mean, I was totally the least likely person to
4:05
Speaker 2: be in any way involved in a scene where somebody
4:11
Speaker 2: would get killed.
4:12
Speaker 3: So you're in the car, you're sleeping, and there's a
4:15
Speaker 3: knock knock on the window, right.
4:16
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we were sleeping in the car. And then
4:19
Speaker 2: the police apparently came to do a routine check of
4:22
Speaker 2: the rest area, and it was in the police notes
4:28
Speaker 2: that they said that when they looked in the driver's window,
4:32
Speaker 2: they saw a handgun between the driver's feet, and that's
4:36
Speaker 2: what started the whole thing. They pulled open the door,
4:41
Speaker 2: they took the gun, they or pulled him out of
4:45
Speaker 2: the car. Then they ordered Jesse out of the car.
4:49
Speaker 2: They took everyone's ID.
4:52
Speaker 3: You were still in the back seat with the kids.
4:53
Speaker 2: I was still in the back seat with the kids.
4:55
Speaker 2: I never left the back seat, and they called in
5:00
Speaker 2: the driver's identification. Then they wanted Jesse's idea and he
5:05
Speaker 2: was reluctant to give it, and then they asked me
5:09
Speaker 2: from my ID. And then the word came back on
5:13
Speaker 2: the police radio that the driver from whom they had
5:16
Speaker 2: taken the handgun was on parole, and as I say, so.
5:21
Speaker 3: He was subject to arrest.
5:23
Speaker 2: Well, as I say, off of.
5:24
Speaker 3: Your gun and being on parole.
5:26
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, even in America, you're not allowed to have
5:29
Speaker 2: a gun if you're on parole. So that changed everything.
5:33
Speaker 2: The policeman then drew his gun and he said something
5:36
Speaker 2: like if nobody moved, the next one to move is dead.
5:41
Speaker 2: And then there's a gunfire. And so I just covered
5:44
Speaker 2: the children.
5:46
Speaker 3: So you're like literally laying on top of the children
5:49
Speaker 3: as a mother would. Yes, I mean to protect them,
5:52
Speaker 3: and then there's guns and you don't know what's going on.
5:54
Speaker 2: At this point seven thirty in the morning, it was foggy,
6:00
Speaker 2: it was a bit cool still in the morning, and
6:07
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, this insane thing is going on.
6:10
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how many bullets were fired,
6:14
Speaker 2: but it was like, all of a sudden, we were
6:16
Speaker 2: in a war. And I was over the children until
6:22
Speaker 2: it got quiet, and I actually wasn't sure if we
6:27
Speaker 2: were still alive because it was so quiet, and then
6:32
Speaker 2: I determined that I was breathing. We were all, I
6:35
Speaker 2: guess shocked by what was happening. And then I looked
6:40
Speaker 2: up to see if Jesse was okay, and I saw
6:44
Speaker 2: him just standing there, frozen in between the two cars,
6:49
Speaker 2: looking as shocked basically as I felt. And the other
6:54
Speaker 2: guy was running around the car with a gun in
6:55
Speaker 2: his hand, ordering Jesse to put us into the police car.
7:00
Speaker 2: At that point we became hostages of the man who
7:03
Speaker 2: had just shot the two policemen.
7:05
Speaker 3: Right now, it's more surreal. Right now, you're being ordered
7:08
Speaker 3: to get into a police car by a guy who
7:09
Speaker 3: just killed two policemen who you thought was your friend,
7:12
Speaker 3: who was doing your favor giving you a ride. So
7:15
Speaker 3: it doesn't get much weirder than that. And now you've
7:17
Speaker 3: got to take the kids at gunpoint and put him
7:20
Speaker 3: in a police car, that's right.
7:21
Speaker 2: And as he helped me out of the car with
7:24
Speaker 2: the baby and with my son Eric, Eric slipped and
7:28
Speaker 2: fell into a pool of blood. Well, and that's when
7:33
Speaker 2: I saw the two policemen on the ground. So helped
7:37
Speaker 2: Eric up and we got We were put into the
7:40
Speaker 2: back of the police car, Jesse again in the passenger side,
7:44
Speaker 2: and the guy drove us away.
7:46
Speaker 3: You know, if this was in a movie, nobody would
7:48
Speaker 3: believe it, right so now you're in the police car.
7:50
Speaker 3: What happens next?
7:52
Speaker 2: I was thinking in my mind, okay, like, how do
7:55
Speaker 2: we get away from the sky. He was racing down
7:59
Speaker 2: the highway, and because it was on the interstate, then
8:04
Speaker 2: he pulls off. He was looking for to change cars.
8:08
Speaker 2: I guess he realized that the police car was a
8:11
Speaker 2: little too conspicuous. So there was a man, an old fellow,
8:17
Speaker 2: going out to get his mail, and the driver walked
8:25
Speaker 2: up to him, and Jesse followed him. And I was
8:29
Speaker 2: still in the back of the car with the kids,
8:31
Speaker 2: and I thought, ah, now now I can get get
8:35
Speaker 2: away from here, you know. So I tried to open
8:38
Speaker 2: the doors, but you can't open the back of a
8:40
Speaker 2: police car. Yeah, so we're stuck. Anyway, Jesse came back
8:49
Speaker 2: and said, listen, he says, we have to go with
8:51
Speaker 2: him in this man's car. So it takes us in
8:56
Speaker 2: the transfers into what is now slightly less conspicuous in
9:01
Speaker 2: a police car, a orange Cadillac.
9:03
Speaker 3: Oh that's great. This guy's this guy's got a flair
9:06
Speaker 3: for the dramatic.
9:08
Speaker 2: So now this other poor man is also hostage. They
9:13
Speaker 2: put me and the children in the front seat. Jesse
9:16
Speaker 2: and the older man are in the back seat. He's
9:20
Speaker 2: driving along and there's very heavy traffic by now.
9:24
Speaker 3: Right, it's a rush hour.
9:26
Speaker 2: It's rush hour, and I could hear helicopters above, and
9:31
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, maybe the traffic is so
9:35
Speaker 2: bad because maybe there's a roadblock or something, and maybe
9:38
Speaker 2: that's a helicopter. And we're gonna be saved, right, You're
9:41
Speaker 2: gonna be saved.
9:42
Speaker 3: Right, the cops are gonna come get you. Great nightmare.
9:45
Speaker 2: And what we didn't know at the time was that
9:47
Speaker 2: when the man went out to get his mail, his
9:51
Speaker 2: wife was watching out the window. Something shouldn't happen to
9:54
Speaker 2: him from the building to the post box and back,
9:56
Speaker 2: you know, and she saw whole thing, and she called
10:02
Speaker 2: the police. So the police. So this means two things. One,
10:07
Speaker 2: the police knew that this man had been kidnapped by
10:10
Speaker 2: this other guy who had with the police car and
10:13
Speaker 2: US number. Two, they knew that there was a woman,
10:17
Speaker 2: two children, and a man hostage in that car.
10:22
Speaker 3: In the orange Cadillac.
10:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're driving along in the orange Cadilloc. I'm now
10:26
Speaker 2: in the front with the two children. Jesse's in the
10:28
Speaker 2: back with the old man, and we come upon the roadblock.
10:34
Speaker 2: You can see it. There's a roadblock. Thank god, I'm
10:37
Speaker 2: thinking he makes this insane decision to try to avoid
10:43
Speaker 2: the roadblock, at which point he makes a sharp left
10:47
Speaker 2: and all the police lined up at the roadblock with
10:51
Speaker 2: their rifles open fire on the car. Holy shit, again,
10:58
Speaker 2: we are being bomb guarded by bullets. I covered the
11:02
Speaker 2: children again, and the car was bouncing with the bullets,
11:09
Speaker 2: just like you know in the movie about Bonnie and Clyde,
11:13
Speaker 2: where the car is actually bouncing with bullets. That's how
11:16
Speaker 2: it was. And then we crashed. We crashed into a
11:20
Speaker 2: semi that was parked as part of the roadblock. The
11:24
Speaker 2: police surround the car. The only one who's actually injured
11:29
Speaker 2: was the driver. He was shot in the leg.
11:32
Speaker 3: That's a miracle, yes, yes, it's.
11:34
Speaker 2: A miracle that we were all alive. So they took
11:37
Speaker 2: him and put him in an ambulance. They took Jesse
11:41
Speaker 2: out of the car. They handcuffed him. They took the
11:43
Speaker 2: man out of the car, They took him away somewhere,
11:46
Speaker 2: and Jesse's standing there, handcuffed and a cop comes from
11:51
Speaker 2: the crowd with his gun turned around with the button
11:54
Speaker 2: forward and ran over and smashed Jesse in the head
11:57
Speaker 2: and knocked them to the ground, and he said, you
12:00
Speaker 2: better get away from me because they're gonna kill me.
12:03
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're holding his hand, you're holding the baby, Christina,
12:07
Speaker 3: who's here. Now we can call you a miracle baby.
12:09
Speaker 3: Now since you survived before you were a year old,
12:11
Speaker 3: you survived two gun fights. I mean, it's quite extraordinary,
12:16
Speaker 3: you know, very lucky. And she's a lovely, lovely young
12:20
Speaker 3: woman if you'd meet her now, So go ahead. So
12:22
Speaker 3: now what I mean even still, what are you thinking? Now?
12:24
Speaker 3: Are you thinking because you your saviors are here the cops.
12:28
Speaker 2: No, they're not saviors anymore, because they're pointing guns at me.
12:31
Speaker 3: A minute ago they were, yeah.
12:33
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, the whole thing turned,
12:35
Speaker 2: and now they're pointing guns at me.
12:38
Speaker 3: And I.
12:40
Speaker 2: Tried to explain that we didn't know. I didn't know,
12:44
Speaker 2: like really what was going on, But they didn't. They
12:49
Speaker 2: weren't listening because they were there. They had just had
12:52
Speaker 2: two of their comrades at the time. I didn't know,
12:54
Speaker 2: but they were killed. They were dead. We or one
12:58
Speaker 2: of us or all of us, we respond and it
13:00
Speaker 2: wasn't up to them to figure it out. It was
13:02
Speaker 2: up to them to apprehend us, and so they take
13:06
Speaker 2: us to an unused portion of the railroad track where
13:10
Speaker 2: the police get out of their cars and start arguing
13:13
Speaker 2: among themselves whether or not to take us in or
13:16
Speaker 2: to simply kill us right there and say we tried
13:18
Speaker 2: to escape. Wow, I couldn't tell you how many there were,
13:25
Speaker 2: but there was a group of them, and I remember
13:27
Speaker 2: there were three of them standing right by the car
13:29
Speaker 2: where I was, and they were so vehement about it.
13:32
Speaker 2: They were like, you know, like when you people are swaying,
13:35
Speaker 2: they start spitting, you know, like I could see the
13:38
Speaker 2: spit coming out in their molines when they were talking,
13:40
Speaker 2: you know, And it was it was one of the
13:44
Speaker 2: most frightening moments. And like I'm sitting there praying, like
13:49
Speaker 2: I hope the one I call in my head the
13:51
Speaker 2: voice of reason should prevail, which thing God Eventually he did,
13:55
Speaker 2: because otherwise they were nobody would have known. So he
14:03
Speaker 2: did prevail. They decided they would take us in. Two
14:06
Speaker 2: detectives came in and they started trying to question me,
14:09
Speaker 2: and they record. In those days, they had the you know,
14:11
Speaker 2: the tape recorders with real tape, right, you know, and
14:16
Speaker 2: so they kept trying to ask me what was what happened,
14:20
Speaker 2: and I kept telling them.
14:21
Speaker 4: I'm really I really don't know.
14:23
Speaker 2: I really don't know exactly what happened, because just like
14:26
Speaker 2: I told you, they were taking our id and asking
14:30
Speaker 2: us questions and then they were shooting, and I honestly
14:34
Speaker 2: didn't see who were shooting. So they didn't believe me
14:42
Speaker 2: because they figure, if you're there, you know what happened.
14:46
Speaker 2: So they every time I'd say, you know, you're trying
14:48
Speaker 2: to get me to say something that's not true, they'd
14:51
Speaker 2: stopped the recording and start a new recording. While we
14:56
Speaker 2: were being interrogated, the guy, the driver, the guy who
15:03
Speaker 2: actually did the killing, from his hospital bed, asked to
15:06
Speaker 2: speak to the prosecutor. Now I was this is how
15:11
Speaker 2: later I found this out. I didn't know. We didn't
15:14
Speaker 2: know at the time, but you see, he knew he
15:19
Speaker 2: was facing the electric chair, so he wanted to make
15:22
Speaker 2: a deal, so he requested to speak to the prosecutor.
15:28
Speaker 2: And the prosecutor at the time was apparently had ambitions
15:36
Speaker 2: to run for district attorney, so rather than get one conviction,
15:41
Speaker 2: he was going to get three convictions, and after our trials,
15:45
Speaker 2: he did, in fact resign as prosecutor and run for
15:49
Speaker 2: district attorney on the basis of his strong stance against crime.
15:53
Speaker 2: So what happened was that the killer was offered a
15:58
Speaker 2: plea bargain for three life sentences in exchange for his
16:02
Speaker 2: testimony against Jesse and me. These plea bargains should not
16:05
Speaker 2: be allowed in capital cases because it's always going to
16:08
Speaker 2: be the most guilty party that takes the plea bargain
16:11
Speaker 2: because they're the one who has the most to lose.
16:13
Speaker 3: Well, they have everything to lose their life.
16:15
Speaker 2: Well, I thought, yes, exactly, So I thought, well, when
16:18
Speaker 2: I found out about it, I thought, well, this is
16:20
Speaker 2: a no brainer. No innocent person would accept three life sentences.
16:25
Speaker 2: I mean, that's not a bargain, you know, not to
16:27
Speaker 2: an innocent person. So I figured the jury will who this,
16:33
Speaker 2: they'll know and we'll go home.
16:35
Speaker 3: By the way, I never just did the concept of
16:36
Speaker 3: three life senses. Does anyone have three lives? I don't
16:38
Speaker 3: know why in this country. It's very odd, right, I'm
16:41
Speaker 3: never like, I mean, anyway, it's very very odd. And
16:43
Speaker 3: he eventually got out. But that's another story. So it's
16:45
Speaker 3: even weird.
16:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another story. But he's also back in so
16:49
Speaker 2: just so people shouldn't how do you.
16:50
Speaker 3: Have three lifess why didn't you give the guy one
16:52
Speaker 3: life sentence and keep them in instead of three life senses?
16:54
Speaker 3: I don't know whatever. That's just another aspect of the case.
16:56
Speaker 3: That's that's very strange and the system is very strange.
16:59
Speaker 3: But anyway, so go ahead.
17:00
Speaker 2: So this plea arrangement was made unbeknownst to us. And
17:06
Speaker 2: also in order to justify giving the plea bargain, they
17:11
Speaker 2: have to give the person a polygraph test to prove
17:15
Speaker 2: that they're not making the deal with the real killer. Okay,
17:19
Speaker 2: so apparently he was given a polygraph test and they
17:21
Speaker 2: submitted a report that he passed a polygraph test. Therefore
17:26
Speaker 2: they were justified in making the plea bargain. Jesse's trial
17:29
Speaker 2: went first. He has tried, convicted, and sentenced to death
17:31
Speaker 2: in four days. My trial lasts two weeks. We all
17:36
Speaker 2: were appointed the public defender. But because now one was
17:42
Speaker 2: going to testify against the others, they had to give
17:44
Speaker 2: us special public defenders, which is regular lawyers who act
17:49
Speaker 2: as who represent you as if they were the public defender,
17:53
Speaker 2: and they don't get paid a lot, so they don't
17:56
Speaker 2: always do a lot because they have other clients, they
17:59
Speaker 2: have to make a living. So and my parents were asked, actually,
18:04
Speaker 2: do you want to maybe get a hire a lawyer.
18:07
Speaker 2: But we thought, why should they have to mortgage their
18:09
Speaker 2: home to try to get me a lawyer, because we
18:12
Speaker 2: were told even in those days, it'd be one hundred
18:14
Speaker 2: thousand dollars or more. In those days, I was a
18:17
Speaker 2: total fortune. So I said, there's no need to do that.
18:21
Speaker 2: I'm completely innocent. I mean, it's not like there was
18:24
Speaker 2: even a fingerprint, there's nothing. It was absolutely nothing against me.
18:28
Speaker 2: So we didn't have the dream team and we didn't
18:30
Speaker 2: have the expert witnesses or whatever. And my lawyer at
18:34
Speaker 2: the time, the appointed lawyer, said, we're not going to
18:39
Speaker 2: put up a defense because there's absolutely no nothing against you.
18:45
Speaker 2: There's no evidence against you, and it gives me a
18:49
Speaker 2: better position in the closing arguments. So I go, fine,
18:54
Speaker 2: you know whatever you say, you're my lawyer. I'm not scared.
18:58
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. I still believed in truth, justice
19:02
Speaker 2: in the American way, and Superman and all those things.
19:05
Speaker 2: So in the second week of the trial, the jury
19:10
Speaker 2: started asking questions. They weren't convinced by the killer, so
19:17
Speaker 2: It turns out that the prosecutor or his team, whoever
19:20
Speaker 2: it was, went and located a girl in the jail
19:23
Speaker 2: who had been arrested for a minor drugs charge, and
19:28
Speaker 2: she and her boyfriend were arrested, and they told her
19:32
Speaker 2: that if she could help them to convict me, she
19:34
Speaker 2: and her boyfriend would released the next day. If they couldn't,
19:38
Speaker 2: then she would go to prison for a long time,
19:40
Speaker 2: her life would be ruined, and she'd never get back
19:42
Speaker 2: to university.
19:43
Speaker 3: Jail House snitches are actually, you know. In the most
19:45
Speaker 3: recent report from the Center for Ronful Convictions, it was
19:49
Speaker 3: shown that in almost forty six percent of the capital
19:54
Speaker 3: cases that have been overturned, forty five point nine percent,
19:58
Speaker 3: a jail house snitch was the sort of deciding factor, right, so, well, she.
20:03
Speaker 2: Said that I spoke to her in the one night
20:07
Speaker 2: that they put her in the bit cell block where
20:09
Speaker 2: I was, and I never spoke to her that. She
20:13
Speaker 2: said that I told her that I did it, I
20:15
Speaker 2: enjoyed it, and I'd do it again. Like, all right,
20:18
Speaker 2: somebody would really say that to a strange person, you know,
20:22
Speaker 2: I thought, now they're really going to know that this
20:24
Speaker 2: is ridiculous. And the jury wasn't convinced, and in fact,
20:27
Speaker 2: they asked more questions, and they were starting to ask
20:29
Speaker 2: questions about like maybe could they at least consider accomplice
20:32
Speaker 2: or something like that. And it was as a result
20:35
Speaker 2: of the judge's instructions to the jury at that point
20:41
Speaker 2: that they felt that they had no choice to convict,
20:44
Speaker 2: but to convict because we didn't put up a defense.
20:47
Speaker 2: And I should say that the judge had been a
20:51
Speaker 2: former highway patrolman and we had asked him to recuse
20:55
Speaker 2: himself from the cases because you couldn't possibly be non
21:01
Speaker 2: biased in a case that involved the killing a policeman
21:05
Speaker 2: if you had been part of that brotherhood yourself. But
21:08
Speaker 2: he refused to step down from the cases.
21:11
Speaker 3: So it was worth noting that the judge judge had
21:14
Speaker 3: a nickname which was Maximum Dan.
21:16
Speaker 2: Yes, and he kept a little miniature electric chair on
21:19
Speaker 2: his desk that he used to do ZIZI.
21:23
Speaker 3: You know, let's just reflect on that for a moment.
21:25
Speaker 3: So you have a judge, this is America. You have
21:28
Speaker 3: a judge who's a former state trooper presiding over a
21:32
Speaker 3: trial in which a state trooper was he a state
21:34
Speaker 3: trooper was killed. There's no reason to think that he
21:37
Speaker 3: wouldn't be totally objective under those circumstances. And he's got
21:41
Speaker 3: an electric chair on his desk going zoop zoop zoop,
21:43
Speaker 3: right touching it and like almost like taunting you, right,
21:47
Speaker 3: And he's and his name was Maximum Dan.
21:50
Speaker 2: So it was as a result though, of his explanation
21:54
Speaker 2: of the law to the jurors that they felt they
21:56
Speaker 2: had no choice but to convict. Then comes the sentencing,
22:01
Speaker 2: and in the sentencing phase they have to be unanimous
22:04
Speaker 2: in order to give a death sentence. Okay, And there
22:07
Speaker 2: was one juror, and this is really important for people
22:10
Speaker 2: to know because people think, oh, you know, one person
22:13
Speaker 2: doesn't make a difference. One person does make a difference
22:16
Speaker 2: because this juror wasn't convinced. He wasn't really convinced that
22:21
Speaker 2: they should have convicted me, but he surely wasn't going
22:24
Speaker 2: to sentence me to death. And so he stood up
22:26
Speaker 2: for what he believed in the face of all the
22:29
Speaker 2: pressure from the other jurors to agree with them, and
22:33
Speaker 2: as a result of his integrity that my jury wasn't
22:40
Speaker 2: able to be unanimous and I was sentenced to life.
22:44
Speaker 3: That's where the judge gets involved, right, And This principle
22:47
Speaker 3: of judicial override is something I want to talk about
22:50
Speaker 3: because this judge then overrode the jury right and he
22:54
Speaker 3: decided that you should be sentenced to death right. And
22:57
Speaker 3: that's an interesting thing to talk about because there were
23:01
Speaker 3: only three states in which this principle of judicial override
23:06
Speaker 3: was constitution was considered constitutional. Now there's only one, and
23:10
Speaker 3: it won't shock you to know that it's Alabama. Even
23:13
Speaker 3: Florida has had it overturned, as has Delaware, which was
23:15
Speaker 3: the other holdout. So now only an Alabama can that happen, right,
23:20
Speaker 3: and judicial override has It's been an issue in about
23:24
Speaker 3: a quarter of the death penalty cases since the death
23:28
Speaker 3: penalty was re enacted in the seventies, and yet it's
23:31
Speaker 3: been a factor in fifty percent of the death sentences
23:35
Speaker 3: that have been overturned. So what that tells you is
23:39
Speaker 3: that the jury is very focused on, or at least
23:43
Speaker 3: interested in the idea that they may be convicting, but
23:46
Speaker 3: they may have enough of a shred of a doubt
23:48
Speaker 3: that they don't want to sentence you the death and
23:49
Speaker 3: that finality. But the judge, for whatever reason, doesn't feel
23:54
Speaker 3: the same compunction. And in your case, it's obvious why
23:58
Speaker 3: he was a former state trooper and he was a
24:00
Speaker 3: who was a you know, a very he was maximum
24:03
Speaker 3: dan right, he was going to throw the death penalty
24:06
Speaker 3: if he was going to throw it out of vegetarian
24:07
Speaker 3: hippie like you. So anyway, so you're sentenced to death,
24:13
Speaker 3: you end up on At this point, there is no
24:15
Speaker 3: death row for women in Florida.
24:17
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, because in nineteen seventy six there had
24:20
Speaker 2: been a three year moratorium just prior to our cases,
24:24
Speaker 2: and they had changed all the death sentences to life.
24:28
Speaker 2: So there were very few men on death row and
24:31
Speaker 2: there were no women. So I became the only woman
24:34
Speaker 2: in the United States with a sentence of death at
24:36
Speaker 2: that time.
24:37
Speaker 3: Wow.
24:39
Speaker 2: And yeah, it is a sort of a distinction, I suppose.
24:41
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:41
Speaker 2: And so they didn't actually know what they were going
24:45
Speaker 2: to do with me, so everybody was kind of speculating
24:47
Speaker 2: in the jail what they would do with me. And
24:50
Speaker 2: what they did is they cleared out a building that
24:53
Speaker 2: had been used for disciplinary purposes, like if there had
24:56
Speaker 2: been a riot in the prisoner or whatever, and they
24:58
Speaker 2: had to lock up a lot of people. That was
25:01
Speaker 2: what that building had been used for. So there were
25:03
Speaker 2: a number of cells on each side. It was like
25:05
Speaker 2: a dungeon there, Like I'll just say six, I'm not
25:10
Speaker 2: really sure anymore. How there were six cells on each side,
25:13
Speaker 2: and in the front there was an office where the
25:16
Speaker 2: guards would stay, and the whole building was surrounded by
25:19
Speaker 2: its own barbed wire fence. Within the barbed wire of
25:23
Speaker 2: the prison itself. No other prisoners were allowed in proximity
25:28
Speaker 2: of that building.
25:29
Speaker 3: So there you are all alone, right, There's nobody else
25:32
Speaker 3: in there.
25:32
Speaker 2: I was the only person in that building.
25:35
Speaker 3: How insane is that?
25:37
Speaker 2: When I was there, I was locked up twenty.
25:39
Speaker 3: Four hours a day, twenty four hours a day in
25:41
Speaker 3: a tiny cell, that's right.
25:43
Speaker 2: It was six steps from the door to the toilet,
25:46
Speaker 2: and I could reach out both my arms and touch
25:48
Speaker 2: the side walls. There was a metal shelf with a
25:51
Speaker 2: thin mattress that was my bed, and then there was
25:54
Speaker 2: a toilet and sink combination. That was all that was
25:56
Speaker 2: in the cell. I spent the first five years of
25:59
Speaker 2: the seventeen years that it took to resolve this in
26:02
Speaker 2: solitary confinement, sence to death. After five years in solitary confinement,
26:19
Speaker 2: finally my first appeal came up. It took that long
26:22
Speaker 2: in those days, and as a result of the judge
26:27
Speaker 2: overruling the jury without giving a proper written reason for
26:31
Speaker 2: having done so, they had to change my sentence from
26:34
Speaker 2: death to life. So then they put me in the
26:38
Speaker 2: prison population, which was another strange circumstance to try to
26:46
Speaker 2: deal with after having been first a free person and
26:49
Speaker 2: then isolated for five years and then be put into
26:53
Speaker 2: the prison population. So that was another thing. But then
26:57
Speaker 2: after a year after my sentence was changed from death
27:00
Speaker 2: to life, that's when my parents were killed at or
27:04
Speaker 2: plane crash. The worst part was that my children then
27:08
Speaker 2: became orphans again, and by then my daughter was about seven.
27:13
Speaker 1: Six years old.
27:14
Speaker 5: And you remember it, I do remember it very clearly.
27:19
Speaker 3: I'm in awe of your mother. Do you watch that?
27:21
Speaker 3: You do you listen to her and just say, I mean,
27:23
Speaker 3: who is she's like? Does she have a cake that
27:26
Speaker 3: she wears around at night?
27:28
Speaker 2: That's you have to ask to kill everyone.
27:30
Speaker 5: My mom is the most amazing person you'll ever meet.
27:33
Speaker 3: She's my favorite. I mean, and then uh, and Peter,
27:36
Speaker 3: we haven't even gotten to you yet.
27:38
Speaker 1: She's also the funniest woman in the world.
27:42
Speaker 3: And so sunny. So then yes, a number.
27:45
Speaker 2: Of things happened in the interim. At one point, the
27:50
Speaker 2: guy who actually did the killing was bragging in prison
27:53
Speaker 2: about how he had killed the two officers, and you know,
27:58
Speaker 2: he had these other two people and death throw for
28:00
Speaker 2: what he'd done. He confessed a number of times, and
28:06
Speaker 2: on one occasion some other prisoners came forward and actually,
28:12
Speaker 2: we're willing to go to court and testify, but the
28:17
Speaker 2: judge ruled that it was prisoner's word wasn't believable. So
28:21
Speaker 2: how come it's believable if they testify against you, but
28:24
Speaker 2: it's not believable if they testify for you, because it's
28:27
Speaker 2: incons why, you know. So we didn't prevail. And when
28:33
Speaker 2: that happened, Jesse was like, this is it, babe, We're
28:36
Speaker 2: going home. You know I told you keep your spirits up.
28:40
Speaker 2: He was always trying to.
28:40
Speaker 3: Keep my spirits up to letters. Yes, so you knew
28:44
Speaker 3: that the real killer had been bragging and it essentially confessed. Yeah,
28:48
Speaker 3: so you're like, now we're going home. I mean obviously right.
28:52
Speaker 2: But we didn't go home.
28:53
Speaker 3: They didn't go home. In fact, quite the opposite, and.
28:57
Speaker 2: It was at that hearing that they brought us both
29:00
Speaker 2: to court. That's the last time I ever saw Jesse
29:02
Speaker 2: actually in person. I always advise people, if you're going
29:06
Speaker 2: to have to go into the appeals process, to get
29:09
Speaker 2: a very young lawyer, because my original appeals lawyer died
29:13
Speaker 2: of a heart attack before the appeals process could be completed,
29:17
Speaker 2: because it takes so many years. As you know, people
29:19
Speaker 2: spent twenty thirty years on death row before they're exonerated.
29:23
Speaker 3: A young lawyer who would think of that except for
29:29
Speaker 3: you anyway.
29:30
Speaker 2: So anyway, these were two young lawyers who were mentoring
29:34
Speaker 2: under him, and they both decided they would continue to
29:38
Speaker 2: fight for my case because they believed in my innocence.
29:40
Speaker 2: Thank god. In the eleventh year, these two young lawyers
29:45
Speaker 2: who paired up and then eventually married, give me the
29:50
Speaker 2: use of a private investigator from some other CALLI in
29:52
Speaker 2: who it paid for it for one day, and I
29:56
Speaker 2: want to find the woman, the young woman who testified
29:59
Speaker 2: against me in the trial, right, the one that we
30:02
Speaker 2: called the jail house snitch. So they said, forget about it.
30:07
Speaker 2: She's a drug addict. She's probably dead, but she wasn't
30:10
Speaker 2: because after this happened, she cleaned up her life and
30:14
Speaker 2: she never looked back, and she moved to Wyoming somewhere,
30:18
Speaker 2: and she was taking care of her sick father, and
30:20
Speaker 2: she had a little family of her own, and she
30:23
Speaker 2: had no idea what happened to me. She didn't even know.
30:26
Speaker 2: So the lawyer, the investigative founder, the lawyer's going they
30:30
Speaker 2: see her, and she cried and she apologized. She was
30:34
Speaker 2: devastated to find out that what at least partly as
30:38
Speaker 2: a result of what she had done, had happened to me.
30:44
Speaker 2: But she would do anything except come back to Florida.
30:48
Speaker 3: And there's a reason why she wanted to come back to.
30:49
Speaker 2: Her Yeah, because she was scared to death because the
30:51
Speaker 2: prosecutor was now a district attorney, even more powerful, and
30:54
Speaker 2: she was afraid that he would find a way to
30:56
Speaker 2: put her in prison too, maybe for perjury that he
30:59
Speaker 2: helped her do. So she was terrified. And unless she
31:03
Speaker 2: was willing to come back to testify and be cross examined,
31:06
Speaker 2: we couldn't use her testimony, right, So the prosecutor sent
31:10
Speaker 2: a couple of his guys out to Wyoming to talk
31:14
Speaker 2: to her father, to have him convince his daughter that
31:17
Speaker 2: she shouldn't come back and.
31:19
Speaker 3: Get involved her sick father.
31:21
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's what made her come back. She got
31:24
Speaker 2: so mad that they would dare to disturb her sick
31:28
Speaker 2: father that she came back, and she is a hero.
31:32
Speaker 2: She's heroic. We had a federal hearing. She testified, She
31:37
Speaker 2: took the stand, she told everything that happened. She sat
31:42
Speaker 2: there and apologized to me. She cried. Then it was
31:48
Speaker 2: the prosecutor's turn to cross examined. As he approached the
31:54
Speaker 2: bench where she said, she grabbed her chest, she started
31:59
Speaker 2: a hyperale and she had a heart attack. And honestly,
32:05
Speaker 2: all I can think of at that moment was please God,
32:07
Speaker 2: don't let her die before a cross examination. Please, because
32:10
Speaker 2: unless we could cross examine, you can't use her testimony.
32:13
Speaker 2: Everything she said would have been for nothing. Oh my god.
32:17
Speaker 2: So anyway, the medical person came in, they brought the paramedics.
32:24
Speaker 2: They took her away in an ambulance, and we didn't
32:28
Speaker 2: know what was going to happen. Finally she recovered. She
32:32
Speaker 2: went back to Wyoming, and the judge said that we
32:35
Speaker 2: could videotape her testimony from Wyoming. So they all went
32:39
Speaker 2: out there and they did the cross examination whatever, and
32:44
Speaker 2: in the end, the judge ruled that it was her
32:47
Speaker 2: word former drug addict against the word of the upstanding citizen,
32:52
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, and we didn't prevail again.
32:56
Speaker 3: So meanwhile, was this before or after Jesse was executed?
33:02
Speaker 2: That was in the eleventh year.
33:04
Speaker 3: Right, so he was still alive.
33:05
Speaker 2: Yes, In the fifteenth year incarceration, Jesse received his third
33:10
Speaker 2: death warrant, which is normally fatal, and in his case
33:12
Speaker 2: it was as well, and he was taken to the
33:15
Speaker 2: electric chair, right.
33:16
Speaker 3: And then it gets worse because in Jesse's case, and
33:19
Speaker 3: people may remember this because it's a very well documented
33:23
Speaker 3: and famous tragic situation. So in Jesse's case, he went
33:32
Speaker 3: to the electric chair, but the electric chair malfunctioned. It
33:35
Speaker 3: was known as old sparky, right, so it wasn't exactly
33:38
Speaker 3: a modern piece of equipment by prisoners by prisoners, and
33:43
Speaker 3: there's at least a theory going around that they may
33:45
Speaker 3: have deliberately tampered with it in order to make his
33:47
Speaker 3: execution more they were like a torture, yes, because he
33:52
Speaker 3: had of course been convicted of killing two police officers.
33:55
Speaker 3: So in his case, the electric air malfunctioned, it took
34:02
Speaker 3: over ten minutes for him to die.
34:04
Speaker 2: It took thirteen and a half minutes for Jesse to
34:06
Speaker 2: Pharaoh to die, and the word was in the prison
34:09
Speaker 2: that they had substituted the natural sea sponge in the
34:11
Speaker 2: helmet with an artificial one so that when they pulled
34:16
Speaker 2: the switch, instead of dying, instead of conducting the current properly.
34:20
Speaker 3: He caught fire. Fire.
34:22
Speaker 2: The witnesses on behalf of the media said that the
34:27
Speaker 2: flame shot two feet in the air out of his head,
34:30
Speaker 2: and that smoke came out of his ears, and then
34:32
Speaker 2: it took thirteen and a half minutes for Jesse to
34:34
Speaker 2: Farah to die.
34:36
Speaker 3: And we shouldn't have a death penalty in this country
34:44
Speaker 3: in my opinion at all. I don't think the death
34:45
Speaker 3: penalty should exist in any country because if you believe
34:52
Speaker 3: in the death penalty, you have to be willing to
34:54
Speaker 3: accept the idea that people like Jesse to Fara are
34:57
Speaker 3: going to be executed. There is no perfect system, there
34:59
Speaker 3: is no way to make sure you've got it right.
35:02
Speaker 3: There's always going to be human error. You can't get
35:05
Speaker 3: that back. So Jesse's actually.
35:08
Speaker 2: Can't give him back to his children either.
35:10
Speaker 3: No, you can't give him back to his children. I mean,
35:13
Speaker 3: and Christina, I mean, I can't even It's hard for
35:16
Speaker 3: me to even bring myself to ask you what you
35:20
Speaker 3: experienced during this period of time. I mean, were you
35:24
Speaker 3: aware that your parents were innocent?
35:26
Speaker 5: How No, I wasn't aware they were innocent, but I
35:34
Speaker 5: mean I didn't. I didn't believe it either. Now I've
35:39
Speaker 5: blacked out a lot from it, just as a coping
35:44
Speaker 5: mechanism for myself. Not blacked out. I remember a lot
35:47
Speaker 5: of things. I don't really honestly remember what I thought.
35:53
Speaker 5: I just knew that they were gone, and you know,
35:57
Speaker 5: my mom was always telling me, you know, I'm coming
35:59
Speaker 5: home home, you know, coming home soon. You know, I
36:03
Speaker 5: just wanted them back. I don't think I cared. I
36:06
Speaker 5: don't think I cared. I just wanted my parents back.
36:10
Speaker 5: It's funny because the day they killed my father, I
36:17
Speaker 5: had two friends with me and I saw them both
36:19
Speaker 5: yesterday after like twenty years. Both of them we were children,
36:25
Speaker 5: and I'll never forget that morning because I wanted to
36:28
Speaker 5: go to school. I didn't want to be home sinking
36:32
Speaker 5: in the news and my parents are watching it. It's on.
36:36
Speaker 5: I'm fifteen now, and my two friends, Sarah and Marvin
36:42
Speaker 5: were on my bus with me, but I was the
36:45
Speaker 5: first one on the bus, and when I got on
36:46
Speaker 5: the bus. The bus driver was actually listening to it
36:49
Speaker 5: on the radio and I could hear it as she
36:52
Speaker 5: didn't know. And the next stop.
36:55
Speaker 3: The bus driver didn't know.
36:57
Speaker 5: The bus driver didn't know that was my father, right,
37:01
Speaker 5: So the next stop was my friend Sarah, and I'm
37:04
Speaker 5: just sitting stoic on the bus. I probably was crying.
37:09
Speaker 3: Sarah knew.
37:10
Speaker 5: Sarah knew what was happening, and she came and she
37:16
Speaker 5: just got on the bus and sat on one side
37:19
Speaker 5: of me and put her arm around me. We didn't
37:23
Speaker 5: say a word. Then my friend Marvin, who's an NYPD
37:27
Speaker 5: officer here by the way, but he was now but
37:31
Speaker 5: we were kids, then got on the bus and he
37:34
Speaker 5: sat on my other side and just put his arm
37:36
Speaker 5: around me, and they held me in love the entire
37:40
Speaker 5: way to school, and they knew what was happening. And
37:44
Speaker 5: I didn't end up staying in school because I had
37:46
Speaker 5: an issue while I was at school and I got
37:48
Speaker 5: sent home, which I should have been home anyway, but.
37:53
Speaker 2: I didn't know.
37:55
Speaker 5: I didn't know about the malfunction of the chair, and
37:59
Speaker 5: I act he found out walking through the mall. I
38:04
Speaker 5: think it was the next day through a friend of
38:06
Speaker 5: mine who was like, you know, I'm really sorry about
38:10
Speaker 5: your dad, and I'm like thanks, you know. He's like,
38:14
Speaker 5: it's terrible what happened, and I'm like it is and
38:18
Speaker 5: he goes, no, but how his head caught fire? And
38:21
Speaker 5: I had I didn't know. Nobody told me and I
38:24
Speaker 5: wasn't watching TV. I wasn't I was trying not to
38:27
Speaker 5: pay attention to it, to tell you the truth, And
38:31
Speaker 5: that's how I found out. And I was angry, to
38:35
Speaker 5: say the least, that nobody told me. And I'm hearing
38:37
Speaker 5: it from not a stranger, but not somebody I should
38:39
Speaker 5: be hearing that from either. And it was really hard.
38:43
Speaker 5: I had seen my dad was it just a few
38:46
Speaker 5: days before, right, And it was a really hard visit,
38:51
Speaker 5: knowing what was going to happen to him, really emotional
38:55
Speaker 5: visiting my grandmother, my grandma Kay, his mother. Somehow fenagled
38:59
Speaker 5: me to get an actual contact visit because it was
39:03
Speaker 5: my only visit with my father behind glass and it
39:08
Speaker 5: was always contact visits, So knowing it's the last time
39:12
Speaker 5: I'm going to see him, I really wanted to sit
39:15
Speaker 5: on his lap. I wanted to give him a hug.
39:16
Speaker 5: I wanted to kiss his face, you know, and somehow
39:21
Speaker 5: she finagled it. But they did have to strip search me,
39:23
Speaker 5: which was weird because I'm a kid, but I didn't care.
39:27
Speaker 5: I just wanted to be with my dad.
39:29
Speaker 3: So but.
39:32
Speaker 5: I will never forget that day. Yeah, insane, and I
39:37
Speaker 5: you know, I don't know what to say about it,
39:40
Speaker 5: but it was very, very, very hard because I'm connected
39:45
Speaker 5: with my father, I'm connected with my mother on a
39:47
Speaker 5: different level. I can feel them, I can, you know.
39:50
Speaker 5: So I knew he was gone his you know, and
39:54
Speaker 5: then knowing what happened to him made it even harder.
39:57
Speaker 5: And not being told immediately too, It's like wow. And
40:02
Speaker 5: then you have everyone you know feeling sad for you
40:05
Speaker 5: and makes it worse, you know. And then I got
40:08
Speaker 5: sent away to school. I got sent away to boarding school,
40:12
Speaker 5: like about six months later, eight months later.
40:18
Speaker 2: See, there's no help for the families of people who
40:22
Speaker 2: are on death row. There's no help at all.
40:25
Speaker 3: I can't even talk.
40:31
Speaker 2: Well, I'll help you out here, you know, it was
40:37
Speaker 2: it's no one knows what to do. There's there's actually
40:42
Speaker 2: no help for the families. I mean, when at very
40:46
Speaker 2: least when somebody's being executed, there should be somebody for
40:49
Speaker 2: their family, and there isn't. So at first I was
40:53
Speaker 2: very upset and angry at the foster parents who are
40:57
Speaker 2: taking care of Tina, to know that instead of keeping
41:01
Speaker 2: her there and loving her and giving her that family
41:03
Speaker 2: support and letting her be perhaps with me and Grandma Kay,
41:07
Speaker 2: you know, so we could grieve together, she was sent away.
41:12
Speaker 2: But to be fair, I understand now they didn't know
41:17
Speaker 2: what the heck to do. What do you do with
41:20
Speaker 2: this child? How do you deal with this? And it's shame,
41:24
Speaker 2: the shame of it. So they sent her away to
41:27
Speaker 2: a school for children with emotional behavioral problems and she
41:31
Speaker 2: was locked up until she was eighteen years old. So
41:33
Speaker 2: now she's locked up too. And yeah, and in a
41:37
Speaker 2: strange way, it gave us a commonality, you know, like, yeah,
41:44
Speaker 2: I understand what it's like to be locked up, ma,
41:47
Speaker 2: because I was locked up too. So the suffering of
41:50
Speaker 2: these wrongful convictions isn't confined to the one person. It's
41:53
Speaker 2: their whole family that suffers. And the people whose children
41:59
Speaker 2: have family to go to that you know, they can
42:02
Speaker 2: stay with you much better than the people whose children
42:05
Speaker 2: don't have family to stay with and end up in
42:08
Speaker 2: foster care because they just they just don't have a chance.
42:13
Speaker 3: The stigma on top of everything else, because for a
42:19
Speaker 3: little Christina, you know, to be getting that sympathy is
42:24
Speaker 3: sort of nice. But even that's got to be complicated
42:26
Speaker 3: because your friends didn't know if your father was a
42:28
Speaker 3: cop killer or not. Right, you didn't even know, right.
42:31
Speaker 5: And could you grew up in a neighborhood like it was,
42:35
Speaker 5: upper middle class neighborhoods, So there's a lot of maybe
42:38
Speaker 5: keeping up with the Joneses, if I can say that.
42:40
Speaker 5: And you know, the people I was with, you know,
42:42
Speaker 5: they don't want everybody to know my story because again,
42:47
Speaker 5: you know, people are going to judge. You know, oh
42:49
Speaker 5: my gosh, you have this child in your house, you know,
42:52
Speaker 5: so you know, and I just showed up out of
42:55
Speaker 5: nowhere and all of a sudden, you know, I'm part
42:57
Speaker 5: of their family and I have brother, and so it's
43:00
Speaker 5: like it's complicated. It's really really complicated. And yes, I would.
43:05
Speaker 5: I would go to visit my parents, and I would
43:07
Speaker 5: I would come back to school, and obviously I would
43:10
Speaker 5: have not mental issues, but I would have emotional issues
43:15
Speaker 5: going on. I'm just you know, I go, I take
43:17
Speaker 5: you know, a week out of school and I'm going
43:19
Speaker 5: from prison to prison, and I'm getting sick. I have
43:22
Speaker 5: double ear infections. You know, I'm on a boss to
43:25
Speaker 5: Dad's was what like seven hours up to Dad's prison.
43:30
Speaker 5: You know, I would fly by myself, and it was
43:31
Speaker 5: very hard as a as a child. And again I
43:35
Speaker 5: don't remember a lot of it, but I do remember
43:37
Speaker 5: having a little trouble in school when i'd come back
43:39
Speaker 5: and there was an adjustment again. And you know, I
43:42
Speaker 5: just visited both my parents in prison and like that
43:48
Speaker 5: to the.
43:49
Speaker 2: Point where apparently it felt it was just too disruptive
43:53
Speaker 2: to their lives to keep bringing her, and they stopped.
44:10
Speaker 2: So then finally, just after Jesse's execution, a friend of mine,
44:20
Speaker 2: a childhood friend, her name is Mickey Diakov. She came
44:24
Speaker 2: to visit me because she wanted to console me over
44:28
Speaker 2: what had happened. I mean, the whole country, the whole
44:31
Speaker 2: world heard what happened to Jesse. In fact, they stopped
44:34
Speaker 2: using the electric chair in Florida as a result of
44:37
Speaker 2: Jesse's execution.
44:38
Speaker 3: For us. Yeah, I was fifteen and living in New
44:40
Speaker 3: York and I heard about it, so, you know, two
44:43
Speaker 3: thousand miles away.
44:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, people over the world heard about it, and
44:47
Speaker 2: Jesse said, they will remember my name. That was one
44:51
Speaker 2: of the last things he said. We had a ten
44:52
Speaker 2: minute phone call just before he was executed, just maybe
44:56
Speaker 2: a few hours before.
44:57
Speaker 3: Do you remember the last thing he said to you?
45:01
Speaker 5: He said, to be brave? Yeah, and you are and
45:07
Speaker 5: I am.
45:08
Speaker 3: I think if he could see you now, he would
45:11
Speaker 3: be extremely proud.
45:14
Speaker 5: He can see me now.
45:15
Speaker 3: Good answer.
45:16
Speaker 2: So Mickey came to visit me, and she said, what
45:22
Speaker 2: can I do to help you? Because we were kids
45:24
Speaker 2: growing up on Long Island together, and I was like
45:28
Speaker 2: the most least likely person in the whole world to
45:31
Speaker 2: ever be in any way involved in something like this,
45:36
Speaker 2: and everybody that knew we knew that. So she said,
45:40
Speaker 2: what can I do? And can I talk to a lawyer?
45:43
Speaker 2: Because she's a documentary filmmaker and she has research skills,
45:50
Speaker 2: and her partner is a civil lawyer, but still a
45:55
Speaker 2: lawyer that knows about how the law works, and they
45:58
Speaker 2: wanted to help me. So I said, sure, go talk
46:02
Speaker 2: to my lawyer. Fine, you know. So they did, and
46:07
Speaker 2: as a result of that, about two and a half
46:10
Speaker 2: years after Jesse was executed, they were able to put
46:13
Speaker 2: together my Habeas Corpus in a way with diagrams, which
46:17
Speaker 2: they had to get special permissions, first time they ever
46:19
Speaker 2: used diagrams and a habeas corpus, and they were able
46:22
Speaker 2: to clearly show what we had been trying to show
46:25
Speaker 2: for years is that I couldn't and Jesse couldn't possibly
46:29
Speaker 2: have committed this crime, and my sentence and conviction were
46:33
Speaker 2: overturned and I should have been free. But as you know,
46:39
Speaker 2: they don't like to admit they're wrong exactly, so they
46:44
Speaker 2: threatened to take me to a new trial. And in
46:50
Speaker 2: those days it was just just I think I was
46:54
Speaker 2: the second person after Alfred that they did this. The
46:59
Speaker 2: Alford is a thing where they say, if you let
47:05
Speaker 2: us convict you of a lesser to charge, you don't
47:10
Speaker 2: have to plead guilty. You can maintain your innocence and
47:14
Speaker 2: then you can leave. You can be free. But if not,
47:18
Speaker 2: we're going to take you back to a new trial.
47:20
Speaker 2: It could take years, we might sentence you to death again.
47:24
Speaker 2: And now they're more desperate than before because now it's
47:27
Speaker 2: going to show all the illegal things that they did,
47:30
Speaker 2: so they're really going to be desperate. We already knew
47:33
Speaker 2: that they had another false witness already lined up to
47:36
Speaker 2: come to the new trial. I even heard that she
47:40
Speaker 2: was promised a white couch for her living room in
47:44
Speaker 2: exchange for her testimony. A white couch.
47:49
Speaker 6: This is nice.
47:50
Speaker 3: You've got orange cadillacs and white couches. I mean, this
47:53
Speaker 3: story is yeah.
47:55
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Nicky and Christy, my friends who
47:59
Speaker 2: were helping me at the time, to help without helping
48:01
Speaker 2: working with my lawyers, they were warned that it was
48:07
Speaker 2: dangerous to even try to help, and that they were
48:10
Speaker 2: being followed and that their phones were being tapped. Everyone
48:17
Speaker 2: was so afraid because of the power. You know, a
48:20
Speaker 2: person in that position has a lot of power.
48:24
Speaker 3: And they have almost all the power.
48:27
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, it's you know, it's interesting how it works
48:33
Speaker 2: because when someone is accused of crime, the police gathered
48:39
Speaker 2: all the evidence, they give it over to the prosecutor.
48:43
Speaker 2: The prosecutor then decides which parts he's going to give
48:48
Speaker 2: to the defense and which parts he doesn't have to
48:50
Speaker 2: buy law gift to the defense to the defense, and
48:54
Speaker 2: then they have the trials. So it's like we have
48:56
Speaker 2: a deck of cards, fifty two cards. I have all
48:59
Speaker 2: the cards. I'm gonna look at them. I'm gonna decide
49:02
Speaker 2: which one is I'm gonna give you and now we're
49:04
Speaker 2: gonna play. You're gonna play with me? Of course not,
49:08
Speaker 2: because the deck is totally stacked. I decide which cards
49:11
Speaker 2: you can have. I'm not giving you all the aces
49:13
Speaker 2: I can tell you. So that's how that's how it works.
49:17
Speaker 2: It's it's really not fair to put another human being
49:20
Speaker 2: in that position, because look, we're all subject to human nature. Okay,
49:26
Speaker 2: everybody wants to win, everybody wants to be the best.
49:30
Speaker 2: And if there's nobody ever gonna know, come on, you know,
49:34
Speaker 2: nobody's ever gonna know that you hid that one card.
49:37
Speaker 2: We have a situation where there's these hearings going on.
49:40
Speaker 2: I am now offered a deal they offered to me.
49:44
Speaker 2: This is before the offer please thing comes up. They
49:46
Speaker 2: offered to me. They say, okay, we're having these hearings.
49:51
Speaker 2: So exactly this is interesting what happened to hearings. First
49:54
Speaker 2: of all, in the hearings, we find out about the
49:58
Speaker 2: fact that, uh, there was a polygraph test. Now, Micky says,
50:03
Speaker 2: why should we believe them they lied about so much.
50:06
Speaker 2: We want to see this polygraph test, the actual graph
50:09
Speaker 2: that came off the machine. Right, So they get a
50:14
Speaker 2: hold of the poly test, and they hire a guy
50:18
Speaker 2: who is a former policeman who's now a polygraph expert,
50:21
Speaker 2: and he takes a look at it and he says
50:24
Speaker 2: he didn't pass the polygraph test. He failed a polygraph
50:27
Speaker 2: test where it said he passed, he actually failed. So
50:31
Speaker 2: the report that they entered saying he passed a polygraph
50:34
Speaker 2: test was a lie. They entered a false report, and
50:38
Speaker 2: that was the basis of their arrangement with him in
50:41
Speaker 2: the first place. That day, they come to me and
50:45
Speaker 2: they say, okay, we're going to offer you a deal.
50:51
Speaker 2: If you'll say that the guy they made the deal
50:57
Speaker 2: with didn't do it, I didn't do it, we'll let
51:02
Speaker 2: you go free today. You can have a steak dinner today.
51:07
Speaker 2: Excuse me, I'm a vegetarian. What were they trying to say?
51:11
Speaker 2: If I didn't do it and the other guy didn't
51:13
Speaker 2: do it, then who did it?
51:14
Speaker 3: Your husband?
51:16
Speaker 2: They figure will blame Jesse. He's dead anyway, right and we.
51:20
Speaker 3: All go out and everybody's fine.
51:22
Speaker 2: But I'm not doing that. Okay. First of all, he
51:25
Speaker 2: still has children and a mother. Second of all, they
51:30
Speaker 2: took everything from me. They took my whole life from me.
51:34
Speaker 2: They took everything from but my integrity, and it was
51:38
Speaker 2: like I felt like I was. It was like dealing
51:42
Speaker 2: with the devil. Now they wanted that last thing. They
51:46
Speaker 2: wanted my very soul, and I wasn't gonna do it
51:49
Speaker 2: because I had made a life for myself in prison.
51:53
Speaker 2: We started a little community group to try to make
51:58
Speaker 2: life better for the life. First, I was teaching math
52:04
Speaker 2: and English in the school. I was teaching yoga because
52:10
Speaker 2: yoga and meditation and prayer was what saved me while
52:14
Speaker 2: I was on death row. There was not enough time
52:15
Speaker 2: to tell everything, but it was my practice of yoga
52:19
Speaker 2: that helped me with the physical effects of all the emotions,
52:23
Speaker 2: and meditation that helped me to clear myself spiritually, and
52:29
Speaker 2: prayer which gave me the hope that there was something
52:31
Speaker 2: out there stronger than them that could see me through.
52:36
Speaker 2: And so I had made a life for myself in there.
52:39
Speaker 2: I could hold my head up and say, you know what,
52:44
Speaker 2: at least I have integrity, Whereas if I were to
52:48
Speaker 2: do that, no matter where you are, you have to
52:51
Speaker 2: live with yourself. So I said, I'm sorry, I don't
52:55
Speaker 2: need steak, Thank you very much. Take me back to prison.
52:59
Speaker 3: They were dealing with so I.
53:01
Speaker 2: Said, take me back, and they did. They took me back.
53:04
Speaker 2: Things went on usual. I went back to my job
53:07
Speaker 2: in the prison whatever. And then uh, a week or
53:15
Speaker 2: so later, I got called back on a Friday. Now
53:20
Speaker 2: you get called back to court on a Friday. They
53:23
Speaker 2: know that everybody's sure you're going home because they don't
53:25
Speaker 2: want to keep you in the county over the weekend.
53:29
Speaker 2: So everybody lined, they lined the walkways. They were like,
53:34
Speaker 2: you're going home. You're going home. Oh, They're all pat
53:39
Speaker 2: me on the back, sailor to your children. You know,
53:41
Speaker 2: you're going home. They took me back to court and
53:45
Speaker 2: I was like praying, and I was like I could
53:48
Speaker 2: almost feel my parents and Jessie around me, you know,
53:51
Speaker 2: in the van because you're you know, you've got your
53:53
Speaker 2: hands handcuffed with the box, you know, so you can't
53:56
Speaker 2: and your feet handcuffed and everything fit, feet coughed. I
53:58
Speaker 2: guess you'd call it. And they took me back to
54:02
Speaker 2: court and my lawyers say to me, Okay, they're offering
54:09
Speaker 2: you this deal. Another deal. Yeah, this time they say
54:17
Speaker 2: that if you'll just allow them to read into the record,
54:20
Speaker 2: you know, a conviction of a lested degree. You don't
54:24
Speaker 2: have to plead guilty, and you can go home.
54:27
Speaker 3: You don't have to implicate Jesse.
54:29
Speaker 2: No, and you can go home, and you have ten minutes.
54:36
Speaker 2: And I sat there and I thought, well, you know,
54:41
Speaker 2: when I went into prison when this happened, I was
54:43
Speaker 2: twenty seven years old. By the time I was sitting
54:47
Speaker 2: there trying to make this decision, I was forty five
54:50
Speaker 2: years old. When I went in. I was a young
54:53
Speaker 2: mother and a wife and a daughter. And at that
54:56
Speaker 2: point in my life when I had to make this decision,
54:59
Speaker 2: I was a widow and an orphan and a grandmother
55:04
Speaker 2: because my son Eric by then had a three and
55:07
Speaker 2: a half year old daughter of his own. And I thought,
55:11
Speaker 2: you know, you never know what will happen in the
55:16
Speaker 2: next few years, if they're going to take me to
55:18
Speaker 2: a trial again, and how long that's going to take,
55:20
Speaker 2: and whatever the outcome would be, what.
55:23
Speaker 3: They were capable of by this point, I mean, you
55:25
Speaker 3: made the right decision.
55:26
Speaker 2: And so I told them that I would accept on
55:29
Speaker 2: the condition that I was not going to plead guilty
55:34
Speaker 2: to anything, that I would maintain my innocence, and they
55:37
Speaker 2: said that was okay, but that during the hearing I
55:39
Speaker 2: had to keep absolutely silent. I was not allowed to
55:43
Speaker 2: say anything. That was the deal. I was not allowed
55:46
Speaker 2: to say anything during this next hearing. So okay, thiss
55:52
Speaker 2: hilarious by the way, she knows so because I can't
55:58
Speaker 2: keep my mouth if she can't. And the judges, uh.
56:03
Speaker 2: You see what happens at one of these alpha and
56:05
Speaker 2: hearing things is that the prosecutor is allowed to read
56:09
Speaker 2: into the record everything he would have said against you
56:12
Speaker 2: had there been a new trial, and you're not allowed
56:15
Speaker 2: to say anything too refute what do you say? Which
56:17
Speaker 2: is a bunch of crap.
56:18
Speaker 4: So I'm sitting there listening to this litany just ridiculous stuff,
56:26
Speaker 4: in my opinion, and I'm trying to think what can
56:30
Speaker 4: I say.
56:31
Speaker 2: There's gotta be something I can get away with saying. Here,
56:33
Speaker 2: So I go, you run her, and my lawyer pinches me.
56:36
Speaker 2: She's pinching me, and he goes, yes, I said I'd
56:42
Speaker 2: like a drink of water. I have a bad taste
56:44
Speaker 2: in my mouth. Wow, Bailiff, get a drink of water.
56:53
Speaker 2: I get my water. And holl is dying. So at
56:56
Speaker 2: least I said something to say something, to say something.
57:01
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure there was anything that could make me
57:04
Speaker 3: love you more than I already do. That's it. That's
57:08
Speaker 3: one of the that's one of the best one liners
57:10
Speaker 3: in the history of the world. So congratulations on that
57:13
Speaker 3: you got the last word at court right, so to speak,
57:16
Speaker 3: because you managed to give them a very sunnyish sort
57:20
Speaker 3: of middle finger to the entire system, and you were freed.
57:24
Speaker 3: And now I want to talk about your life now
57:27
Speaker 3: because it's extraordinary. Everything about you is extraordinary, But the
57:34
Speaker 3: crazy twist that life took several years ago is really
57:40
Speaker 3: the subject that I want to turn to now.
57:43
Speaker 2: It's my favorite part.
57:45
Speaker 3: So it's one of my favorite parts too.
57:47
Speaker 2: So so what happened is I took time off to
57:52
Speaker 2: get a life for myself and to get a persona
57:55
Speaker 2: other than the victim of injustice, and I became Sonny
57:58
Speaker 2: the yoga teacher, the happy pink dot floatner. I used
58:01
Speaker 2: to wear pink all the time because in prison you
58:03
Speaker 2: couldn't wear nice color. So I had this pink sweatpants
58:08
Speaker 2: and pink sweatshirt and I used to run around being
58:10
Speaker 2: the yoga teacher all over Los Angeles until finally I
58:15
Speaker 2: went back into the death penalty movement again and I
58:18
Speaker 2: met some representatives of Mnescy International from Ireland, and they
58:22
Speaker 2: heard me talk and invited me to Ireland to speak.
58:25
Speaker 3: And this is where the story gets good ending, Yes,
58:32
Speaker 3: the happy ending.
58:33
Speaker 1: She I got this phone call one day and.
58:37
Speaker 6: American woman who said her name was Sunny Jacobs and
58:40
Speaker 6: whom I'd never heard of, and said she was going
58:43
Speaker 6: to be given a talk three days later where I
58:45
Speaker 6: was in the town I was in, and invited.
58:47
Speaker 1: Me to come along.
58:47
Speaker 6: I said, what are you going to talk about? She
58:49
Speaker 6: said that dead penalty. I said, yes, I'm interested in that.
58:52
Speaker 6: I'll come along, and I brought two friends and so
58:55
Speaker 6: I went along and the door opened across the room
58:58
Speaker 6: and this little lady walked in and I walked over.
59:00
Speaker 1: To her and I said, you must be Sonny Jacobs
59:02
Speaker 1: and she said.
59:03
Speaker 2: To me, well, you must be Peter Bringle, and.
59:05
Speaker 6: She gave me this big smile which she has. So
59:09
Speaker 6: she went to share her story and I listened, and
59:13
Speaker 6: I was devastated by.
59:14
Speaker 3: What I heard.
59:15
Speaker 1: I was hugely emotionally.
59:18
Speaker 6: Upset by the tragedy of what had happened to her.
59:22
Speaker 6: And I knew that I had to talk to her.
59:24
Speaker 6: I just knew I had to speak with her. This
59:26
Speaker 6: was somebody who would understand my situation just as I
59:29
Speaker 6: understood hers. And so afterwards I said, I'd like to
59:33
Speaker 6: talk with you and she said, yes, so Di, she said,
59:35
Speaker 6: but I'm leaving in an hour.
59:38
Speaker 1: I said, where are you going? She said, we have
59:39
Speaker 1: to go to Cork.
59:40
Speaker 6: She was traveling around the country with the Secretary of
59:44
Speaker 6: Amnesty Ireland, Mary Lawler, and she had to be in
59:49
Speaker 6: Cork the following evening for the agm of Amnesty. That's
59:53
Speaker 6: about five hours away from where we were. So I
59:57
Speaker 6: said to her, well, if you stay over and I
59:59
Speaker 6: here Galway, I guarantee I'll get you there in time
1:00:02
Speaker 6: for your meeting. And so we did, and I took
1:00:05
Speaker 6: her down to the countryside. She showed her all the sights,
1:00:07
Speaker 6: and we got the Cork and she did her talk.
1:00:10
Speaker 6: When we were crossing the river, Shannon and the car
1:00:13
Speaker 6: ferry and Chris, our friend, had given us a.
1:00:16
Speaker 1: Pack lunch and he was a vegetarian, of.
1:00:18
Speaker 6: Both vegetarians at the time, and so we had his
1:00:22
Speaker 6: pack lunch and Sonny turned to me and she said,
1:00:24
Speaker 6: what's your interest in all of this? I said to well, well,
1:00:27
Speaker 6: I was wrongly convicted and sentenced that too. I spent
1:00:29
Speaker 6: almost fifteen years in prison.
1:00:31
Speaker 3: Did you believe him?
1:00:32
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe.
1:00:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said, oh, she said, we just seem to
1:00:36
Speaker 1: have come out of it. Okay.
1:00:37
Speaker 6: She said, how did you get through? And I said, well,
1:00:39
Speaker 6: yoga and meditation Jesus, and that's what she had used
1:00:43
Speaker 6: as well. And I said that to her. She just
1:00:44
Speaker 6: lit up and she said, oh my god, the yoga meditation.
1:00:48
Speaker 6: So then when we were driving down after that from
1:00:50
Speaker 6: the car ferry down to the Cork, we were sharing
1:00:52
Speaker 6: our story with each other.
1:00:53
Speaker 1: It was the most.
1:00:54
Speaker 6: Amazing journey I've ever had in my life because we
1:00:58
Speaker 6: were at various stages. We were laughing our heads off,
1:01:02
Speaker 6: we were crying our eyes out. It was a hugely
1:01:05
Speaker 6: emotional trift the hallway down the road as we shared
1:01:08
Speaker 6: things with each other and we see each other goodbye,
1:01:11
Speaker 6: we said we keep in touch, and we did, and
1:01:13
Speaker 6: so our relationship.
1:01:15
Speaker 3: Developed and now, truly what is can only be considered
1:01:20
Speaker 3: a full circle a current. Sonny and Peter now run
1:01:24
Speaker 3: a thing called the Sunny Sanctuary, and the Sunny Sanctuary
1:01:27
Speaker 3: is a truly a sunny sanctuary, although it's not that
1:01:31
Speaker 3: much sun in Ireland, but it's a Sanctuary, share of it,
1:01:34
Speaker 3: you get our share. Yeah, it's everyone thinks it rains
1:01:36
Speaker 3: all the time, but it doesn't. It doesn't. So and
1:01:39
Speaker 3: you have a lot of nice golf courses over there.
1:01:41
Speaker 3: So Sunny and Peter run the Sunny Sanctuary where they
1:01:45
Speaker 3: have found an extraordinary way of sharing their experience and
1:01:50
Speaker 3: creating a positive outcome from all this negative which is
1:01:56
Speaker 3: a weak word to use for what's gone on in
1:01:59
Speaker 3: your lives. And now they now bring newly exonerated people
1:02:04
Speaker 3: over to stay with them, and they're able to share
1:02:07
Speaker 3: their experiences and learn anything from yoga to farming to
1:02:12
Speaker 3: just being How do people they want to give to
1:02:15
Speaker 3: the Sunny Sanctuary? How do people? Is there? What's the website?
1:02:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a website. It's called the Sunny Center, the
1:02:22
Speaker 2: Sunny Center.
1:02:23
Speaker 3: That's s U n n Y the Sunny Center, and
1:02:26
Speaker 3: there's sunny is it Sunnycenter dot com.
1:02:28
Speaker 5: Dot com And in the website that it describes how
1:02:33
Speaker 5: you can donate, you can and so so different ways.
1:02:37
Speaker 3: And you're just doing such incredible work.
1:02:41
Speaker 6: Yes, that's what we do, and that's what we love doing.
1:02:44
Speaker 6: And it's not just healing for the exonerties, for it's
1:02:46
Speaker 6: healing for us too.
1:02:58
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fit tast stick review
1:03:00
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm
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Speaker 3: a proud donor to the Ennisnce Project, and I really
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Speaker 3: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
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Speaker 3: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject
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Speaker 3: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
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Speaker 3: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
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Speaker 3: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three
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Speaker 3: time OSCAR nominatede composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
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Speaker 3: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
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Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a
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Speaker 3: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal
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Speaker 3: Company Number one