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Step 3 - A Conversation With Laura · Sober Readings

• Scott Hayes: Welcome to Sober Readings, I'm Scott, your host, and today I'm joined by my good friend Laura. Together we dive into the powerful words of Step 3 from the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions. We'll read through the chapter together, then open up about what turning our will and our lives over to a higher power really looks like in day-to-day sobriety, the struggles, the breakthroughs, and the freedom that comes with letting go. So grab your coffee, your 12 and 12 book, or just a comfy spot in a cozy chair. and let's walk this step together. Enjoy my conversation with Laura. Hi. Today we're going to be reading step three out of the book 12 Steps and 12 Traditions. We'll read through step three and then we'll have a short discussion afterwards. I'd love to hear your thoughts and comments on it. Sounds good. All right, you want to begin reading? Sure. Step three, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. ⁓ hi, I'm Laura, I'm an addict. Thanks. Practicing step three is like the opening of a door, which to all appearances is still closed and locked. All we need is a key and the decision to swing the door open. There is only one key and it is called willingness. Once unlocked by willingness, the door opens almost of itself and looking through it, we shall see a pathway besides which is an inscription. It reads, This is the way to a faith that works. In the first two steps, we were engaged in a reflection. We saw that we were powerless over alcohol and we also perceived that faith of some kind, if only in AA itself, is possible for anyone. These conclusions did not require action. They required only acceptance. Like all the remaining steps, step three calls for affirmative action, for it is only by action that we can cut away the self-will which has always blocked the entry of God, or if you like, a higher power into our lives. Faith, to be sure, is necessary, but faith alone can avail nothing. We can have faith, yet keep God out of our lives. Therefore, our problem now becomes just how and by what specific means shall we be able to let him in. Step three represents our first attempt to do this. In fact, the effectiveness of the whole AA program will rest upon how well and earnestly we have tried to come to a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. To every worldly and practical minded beginner, this step looks hard, even impossible. No matter how much one wishes to try exactly how can he turn, his own will and his own life over to the care of whatever God he thinks there is. Fortunately, we who have tried it and with equal misgivings can testify that anyone, anyone at all, can begin to do it. We can further add that a beginning, even the smallest, is all that is needed. Once we have placed the key of willingness in the lock and have the door ever so slightly open, we find that we can always open it some more. Though self-will may slam it shut again, as it frequently does, it will always respond the moment we again pick up the key of willingness. Pass. Maybe this all sounds mysterious and remote, something like Einstein's theory of relativity or a proposition in nuclear physics. It isn't at all. Let's look at how practical it actually is. Every man and woman who has joined AA and intends to stick has, without realising it, made a beginning on step three. Isn't it true that in all matters touching upon alcohol, each of them has decided to turn his or her life over to the care, protection and guidance of alcoholics anonymous? Already a willingness has been achieved to cast out one's own will. one's own ideas about the alcohol problem in favor of those suggested by AA. Any willing newcomer feels sure AA is the only safe harbor for the Foundering Vessel he has become. Now, if this is not turning one's will and life over to a newfound providence, then what is? But suppose that instinct still cries out, as it certainly will. Yes, respecting alcohol I guess I have to be dependent upon AA. But in all other matters, I must still maintain my independence. Nothing is going to turn me into a non-entity. If I keep on turning in my life and my will over to the care of something or somebody else, what will become of me? I'll look like the hole in the doughnut. This, of course, is the process by which instinct and logic always seek to but bolster egotism and so frustrates spiritual development. The trouble is that this kind of thinking takes no real account of the facts. And the facts seem to be these. The more we become willing to depend upon a higher power, the more independent we actually are. Therefore, dependence as AA practices it is really a means of gaining true independence of the spirit past. Let's examine for a moment this idea of dependence at the level of everyday living. In this area, it is startling to discover how dependent we really are and how unconscious of that dependence. Every modern house has electric wiring carrying power and electric, carrying power and light to its interior. We are delighted with this dependence. Our main hope is that nothing will ever cut off the supply of current. By so accepting our dependence upon this marvel of science, we find ourselves more independent personally. Not only are we more independent, we are even more comfortable and secure. Power flow is just where it is needed. Silently and surely, electricity, that strange energy so few people understand, meets our simplest daily needs and our most desperate ones too. Ask the polio sufferer confined to an iron lung who depends on the complete trust upon a motor to keep the breath of life in him. But the moment our mental or, excuse me, mental or emotional independence is in question, how differently we behave, how persistently we claim the right to decide all by ourselves just what we shall think and just how we shall act. ⁓ yes, we'll weigh the pros and cons of every problem. We'll listen politely to those who advise us, but all the decisions are to be ours alone. Nobody is going to meddle with our personal independence in such matters. Besides, we think there is no one we can surely trust. We are certain that our intelligence, backed by willpower, can rightly control our inner lives and guarantee us success in the world we live in. This brave philosophy wherein each man plays God sounds good in the speaking, but it still has to meet the acid test. How well does it actually work? One good look in the mirror ought to be answer enough for any alcoholic. Should his own image in the mirror be too awful to contemplate, and it usually is, He might first take a look at the results normal people are getting from self-sufficiency. Everywhere he sees people filled with anger and fear, society breaking up into warring fragments. Each fragment says to the others, we are right and you are wrong. Every such pressure group, if it is strong enough, self-righteously imposes its will upon the rest. And everywhere the same thing is being done on an individual basis. The sum of all this mighty effort is less peace and less brotherhood than before. The philosophy of self-sufficiency is not paying off. Plainly enough, it is a bone-crushing juggernaut whose final achievement is ruined. Pass. Therefore, we who are alcoholics can consider ourselves fortunate indeed. Each of us has had his own near-fatal encounter with the juggernaut of self-will and has suffered enough under its weight to be willing to look for something better. So it is by circumstance rather than by any virtue that we've been driven to AA, have admitted defeat, have acquired the rudiments of faith, and now want to make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to a higher power. We realize that the word dependence is as distasteful to many psychiatrists and psychologists as it is to alcoholics. Like our professional friends, we too are aware that there are wrong forms of dependence. We have experienced many of them. No adult man or woman, for example, should be in too much emotional dependence upon a parent. They should have been weaned long before, and if they have not been, they should wake up to the fact. This very form of faulty dependence has caused many a rebellious alcoholic to conclude that dependence of any sort must be intolerably damaging. But dependence upon an AA group or upon a higher power hasn't produced any baleful results. When World War II broke out, this spiritual principle had its first major test. AA's entered the services and were scattered all over the world. Would they be able to take discipline, stand up under fire, and endure the monotony and misery of war? Would the kind of dependence they had learned in AA carry them through? Well, it did. They had even fewer alcoholic relapses or emotional binges than AA's safe at home did. They were just as capable of endurance and valor as any other soldiers, whether in Alaska or on the Salerno beachhead. Their dependence upon a higher power worked. And far from being a weakness, this dependence was their chief source of strength. So how exactly can the willing person continue to turn his will and his life over to the higher power? He made a beginning we have seen when he commenced to rely on AA for the solution of his alcohol problem. But now, though, the chances are that he has become convinced that he has more problems than alcohol and that some of these refuse to be solved by any, by all the sheer personal determination and courage he can muster. They simply will not budge. They make him desperately unhappy and threaten his newfound sobriety. Our friend is still victimized by remorse and guilt when he thinks of yesterday. Bitterness still overpowers him when he broods upon those he still envies or hates. His financial insecurity worries him sick. And panic takes over when he thinks of all the bridges to safety that alcohol burned behind him. And how shall he ever straighten out that awful jam that cost him the affection of his family and separated him from them? His lone courage and unaided will cannot do it. Surely he must now depend upon somebody or something else. Pass. Excuse me at first that somebody is likely to be his closest a a friend He relies upon the assurance that his many troubles now made more acute Because he cannot use alcohol to kill the pain can be solved too Of course the sponsor points out that our friend's life is still unmanageable Even though he is sober that after all only a bare start on a AIDS program has been made More sobriety brought about by the admission of alcoholism and by attendance at a few meetings is a very good indeed, but it is bound to be a far cry from permanent sobriety and a contented useful life. That is just where the remaining steps of the AA program come in. Nothing short of continuous action upon these as a way of life can bring the much desired result. Then it is explained that other steps of the AA program can be practiced with success, only when step three is given a determined and persistent trial. This statement may surprise newcomers who have experienced nothing but constant deflation and a growing conviction that human will is of no value whatever. They have become persuaded and rightly so that many problems besides alcohol will not yield to a headlong assault powered by the individual alone. But now it appears that there are certain things which only the individual can do. All by himself and in the light of his own circumstances, he needs to develop the quality of willingness. He acquires willingness. When he acquires willingness, he's the only one who can make the decision to exert himself. Trying to do this is an act of his own will. All of the 12 steps require sustained and personal exertion to conform to their principles, and so we trust to God's will. It is when we try to make our will conform with God's that we begin to use it rightly. To all of us, this was a most wonderful revelation. Our whole trouble had been the misuse of willpower. We had tried to bombard our problems with it instead of attempting to bring it into agreement with God's intention for us. To make this increasingly possible is the purpose of AEA's 12 steps and step three opens the door. Pass. Once we have come into agreement with these ideas, it is really easy to begin the practice of step three. In all times of emotional disturbance or indecision, we can pause, ask for quiet, and in the stillness simply say, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Thy will, not mine, be done. brings us to the end of step three reading. Thanks Laura for reading that with me. So what are your thoughts? What comes to mind when you think of step three? What comes to mind? You know, I think the first thing that came to mind when I picked up this book the first time was just that it sounded impossible. ⁓ And so I love that last paragraph where it just makes it really simple. says, look, in all times when you're emotionally disturbed or you don't know how to make a decision, pause and pray. And, you know, the difference between that and how most of us run in our lives is pretty obvious to most of us. We don't pause and we certainly don't ask for help. ⁓ And yet, how many times throughout the day is there an emotional disturbance, whether it's like a flicker of irritation or rage or despair or whatever it is, ⁓ or indecision. know, I mean, should I eat that or that? Should I go to the shops now or later? I mean, it can be big decisions or little decisions. And I think what this is pointing us to is, look, whenever you, there's a... something going on in you that feels uncomfortable, how about instead of trying to figure it out or getting more and more more more angry or whatever it is, how about you just stop and pause and in the stillness say some sort of prayer and it might be the serenity prayer but for me most of the time these days I tend to use the set aside prayer because that just resonates more with me. which is help me to let go of everything I think I know about this so that I can have a new experience and see the truth. ⁓ And so that's the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah, you what I love about this reading is it gives almost specific, ⁓ a specific way to answer these questions. Like when I first went through the steps with my sponsor, I asked the same question. And it says the sentence right here. Therefore our problem now becomes just how and by what specific means Shall we be able to let him in? You know, and that's exactly what I almost exactly what I asked my sponsor like how do I do this? What it okay, so I'm making a decision But what does it mean to turn our will in our lives over to the care of God as we understood him? Like what does that mean? How do I do that? Like for me? I'm always looking for an action item. What is my action item in this? How do I do that? And I love how in this ⁓ in this reading in this chapter It tells us that ⁓ by, well, number one, by not forcing my will on things. ⁓ Basically, exactly what you're talking about is the pause, you know. And I think we talked about this in the morning meeting this morning about instincts, you know, and how my initial reaction is to react to things, to emotions, you when emotions start to run high. And so, taking that pause and the awareness of my emotions and then taking that pause and maybe not taking action at all, a lot of times is a much better ⁓ way to go than trying to force my will on things. Yeah. I mean, what you're sharing reminds me that actually the first step in any of this is just noticing. And I, you know, there's There was a long period in my recovery when I just, would say some sort of prayer in the morning and then I would walk out the door into New York City and it wouldn't have come to me until my evening meeting that I'd forgotten all of this. And I just hadn't noticed. And so there's so much that just needs to work on us. on this, that's why we do this every day, right? Where it's like, okay, if I'm on my own, can I notice my emotions? If I walk into a room with another person, can I keep just noticing my emotions? If I walk into a room with a person I find attractive, can I keep noticing my emotions? That's harder. If I walk into a room and there's 27 people who all intimidate me, can I keep noticing? And you know, those... It's like lifting weights. You know, we just keep showing up every day and we go, ⁓ yeah, so I was, I was present to my life for about 1 % of the day yesterday. ⁓ and so I said a bunch of stuff that I didn't mean, and, ⁓ I had to make yet another amends. How about today? I shoot for 2 % ⁓ of the day that I can actually be present, you know, and it's just, just something we work on. Yeah. ⁓ I also love how they talk about dependence in here. think humility is obviously a big part of ⁓ step three of this whole of this entire program actually. And so they talk about the word dependence as distasteful to, you know, to many psychiatrists and to alcoholics, you know, and ⁓ like, I don't know that anyone wants to feel dependent on anyone or anything. And so when they when they talk about you know, dependence upon a higher power. think it takes a lot. I mean, especially to alcoholics where for me anyway, I got to a certain point, a low point in my life where I had no other choice, you know, so, so depending on a higher power, ⁓ actually seemed like a good option. And, ⁓ you know, they talk about here, some of these, some of these refuse to be solved by all the sheer personal determination and courage he can muster, meaning I can try as hard as I want. to solve some problems and they're just not going to happen. You know, I try to force my will on things. I try to control everyone and everything around me and it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. And so when I, when I'm, when I'm aware of that and when I take that pause and when I just let go, things always seem to work out no matter what they are, financial issues, personal issues, whatever it is, they just always seem to work out. And so just having that awareness that I'm not in control and I don't have to be in control. As a matter of fact, I don't want to be in control, you know, because a lot of times when I let go of control and stop trying to control the outcome of everything, ⁓ my stress level goes way down, you know. ⁓ So that, that, you know, that's part of my thing is ⁓ I pray for the acceptance of the outcome of things, whatever, whatever thing that may be during, you know, all throughout my day, I'm praying for acceptance of the outcome of it. Cause a lot of times The outcome's not gonna be what I want. It's just gonna be how it happens. Right. Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about is where the rubber meets the road for all of us. It's like, okay, can I... You you use the phrase, it always seems to work out. And, you know, I think most of us are pretty good at step three when things seem to be, you know, when we let go and things go our way. And I do think that higher power knows how we addicts work. And so at the beginning of our recovery, often we're given some bones. Like they'll throw us a few bones, like, okay, you took a step three and this worked out. But then, you know, to circle back to the word dependence, like... You know, somebody's, if my kid dies, that doesn't look like things are working out for me. And yet if I look underneath that, what I'm saying is my happiness is dependent upon certain people not dying. And so now, because I can't accept that as a possibility, Now it's up to me to play God around that. Well, that one has to stay alive for me to be happy. So now my happiness is dependent on my son. So now when he wants to go out and live his life, I'm like, ⁓ that's a little dangerous. Maybe you shouldn't do that. So now I'm trying to control him because my happiness depends on him being okay. And that's where we get into this place where If my step three, like it says towards the end, the rest of the program requires that I take a solid step three. And there's a point for all of us where our step three ends. And you know it by, you know, the moment I talk about kids dying, most of us will go, nope, not that one. Like, nope, not willing to accept that one. And, you know, none of us want it. Nobody wants that to happen. And also, you know, I'm aware having done this work around, you know, what am I truly willing to accept in step three? I'm aware that if I don't accept the fact that my kid has his own higher power and his own life, then I will in subtle and unsubtle ways try to control his life. And that that is not only me playing God, but probably isn't gonna make him love me anymore. And so I get into that, shuffle or that tussle with God and also with the people around me. Yeah. It almost sounds like you're talking about the reservations that we may or may not have with drinking, right? Like if I say, I'm not going to drink unless this happens. Like if my parent were to die, you know, then I may drink or if one of my kids would die, then I may drink. You know, that's a reservation that we all talk about and ⁓ that can be dangerous. you because I'm putting conditions on my sobriety and that's never a good idea. You know, because like you said, it's, it's, are things that are, that are out of my control, you know, and just like, you know, the last sentence that you wrote, you read in here, it was the serenity prayer. And, I'm to ask your opinion about, about the serenity prayer and how you use it. But I heard in a meeting one time, something that I'll never forget. And someone was talking about how he saw the serenity prayer and he said, you know, That first sentence, God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change. That's everything outside of me, everything external. Right? And then the second part is the courage to change the things that I can. That's internal. Those are internal things. I can change those things. I can change my emotions. I can change how I react, stuff like that. And then the wisdom to know the difference. Do I know the difference between internal things and external things? Sometimes I think not based on my actions. You know, but so what is your, I'd love to hear your take on the serenity prayer and how you use it. ⁓ I think basically the same way you do, which is, you know, the first time it was presented to me, it was by my first sponsor. And he told me to put my finger on my nose. And then he said, okay, Laura, you can control everything behind your finger. And I did not. I did not like that. But like you just said, that everything outside of me is just whether I like it or not, including my kid, is not something I can control. And so we start looking inwards and when the shit hits the fan, we start going, okay, okay, okay, spiritual axiom, what does that mean? What is under my control right now? And of course, in those moments, emotional disturbance wants to keep us focused on outside and so just the willingness to turn inside is a massive step three. Like, okay, okay, I get it, I get it, I get it, I'll have to turn inside. And then once I get inside, what do I encounter? I encounter three things, emotions, thoughts, and you can call it energy, the east calls it chi or prana or shakti, but basically it's just kind of the tingly sensations in your body. So you find those three things. And pretty much all of the world's spiritual traditions are based around dealing with those things to some extent. And you said something about you can control your reaction. I think I can. I can stop myself from taking a hammer and smashing all the windows when I'm angry. I've proven to myself that I'm capable of doing that. But I think for a long time I thought I was capable of reversing my own anger or I was capable of just taking a feeling and doing a 10th step on it and then it would go away. And the humbling admission I have at this point is that I don't even have control over the length of time that it takes me to surrender. I don't have control of the length of time that it takes for an emotion to play itself out in me. I don't have control over the length of time it takes for my internal monologue to shift, no matter how much I try. And I've been very diligent on all three and humbled over and over again. And I think where I'm at with it now is what I can change is I can become willing. And that's it. And that's why the chapter starts with willingness. Am I willing? Okay, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry. Am I willing to let go of it? And that's why I love the set-aside prayer and the serenity prayer is just as good, for some reason the other one resonates with me more. It's like, do I like this feeling of anger, of fear, of self-righteousness, of do I like it? Does it feel good? And as I've gotten to know the energy in my body, I know what all of those feelings feel like and none of them feel good. Anger feels like power for about 3.5 seconds and then it's just a burning in my throat or a twisting in my gut. You know the first time I had an MRI they were like ⁓ you're all twisted right here well that's weird and I was like I know why that is. So like just all I have to do in that moment is say okay I don't know what to do but do I am I willing like step one am I willing to to imagine that this could pass. Step two, do I think it's possible that something outside of me could take this away? And step three, am I just willing to try? it's really humbling, I think, to recognize just how little we have control over. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up anger because it's interesting. find that ⁓ I've always had an issue with anger and I always find that every time I get angry over something at the end of that episode, I always find myself regretful. for my actions or for my behavior or whatever. And so I always think, how do I back up and at the beginning of that episode, recognize that, be aware of it and not let that behavior happen? That's really difficult. As far as willingness, do you find yourself throughout the day going in and out of willingness? As far as, well, willingness in general. Yes, and I think the more I've ⁓ become present in my own life, ⁓ the more I've seen how quickly I go in and out of it. And the truth is that at this point, I seem to go in and out of willingness every few seconds, if I'm lucky, every few minutes. And It's all based on what's happening in front of me or whatever I'm looking at, whether I'm looking at something out of me or something inside and just my level of acceptance of it. So, you know, I go to a meeting, I love what you're sharing. It's so great. I can feel openness inside of me and it's wonderful. And the next person starts sharing and they say something that just doesn't jive with my whatever. And I can feel the tightness in me and And, you know, and then the question is how quickly can I catch that and not just be in, why is that person sharing that thing again? Like how quickly can I notice, how quickly can I go into willingness? You know, and most of the time I can go into willingness fairly quickly now. ⁓ But I would say I watch myself go in and out of it just over and over over and over again, all day, every day. Yeah, I can. can totally relate to that. ⁓ The best example is, in meetings, you know, like you're, you're like, you're talking about someone sharing and I agree with it I love it. And then the next person and, and, and, ⁓ the next person starts to share something that I either I'm judging that person and it's all within me, you know, this is all like my issue. has nothing to do with that person sharing what they're sharing, whatever it doesn't matter. And my sponsor said this early on to me, said that, ⁓ You know, if you can't sit through three minutes of someone sharing, you got an issue with yourself. That's like, that's on you, you know, that you got some more work to do. And that's, I think about that all the time, you know, when, when I'm sitting in a meeting and someone's either doing something or talking about something or whatever that I don't particularly agree with or whatever. ⁓ I try to be aware of my feelings and try to be aware that they have the right to talk just as much as I do. ⁓ you know, ⁓ just accept that maybe that's what they need to share at that time. Yeah, I mean... You know, just, just recently I was sharing with somebody like, ⁓ I'm really enjoying the fact that I've been much more in acceptance at meetings recently. And I've been nitpicking people's shares recently and it feels really good because I don't have to go into irritation. And then almost hours after I, after I shared that I witnessed myself getting irritated at someone's share again. And I don't know. I think that's, I think that's really because this, this process that we're going through, all of us are going through is really just one of increasing willingness to admit that we're full of shit because you know, there was a period at the beginning of my recovery when I had a lot of success, seemingly, you know, I was having really amazing spiritual experiences and I had a lot of sponsors and you know, sounded like I knew what I was talking about. ⁓ And then it just all came crashing down and I had a really brutal relapse that lasted four years. And I think that was because, you know, this tricky thing inside of us, some people call it the disease, some people call it ego, this book sort of will call it egotism sometimes, whatever. whatever you want to call that. This thing inside of us is so sneaky and so ⁓ ready to just put a different mask on. so, you know, that moment when I was saying to somebody like, ⁓ I, you know, I'm so glad that I'm just not judging people in meetings anymore. The truth is I was really glad. Like it feels better, like you said, not to be, not to be judging someone, but then my ego immediately took that feeling of gratitude and made it into a source of pride and made it into a reason why I was better than someone else in the meeting. And so my higher power had to just show me that that line of thinking is not gone yet, Laura. is, why is that? I don't know why it works that way. And I don't know if it's that way for everybody. know that. You know, some of us are just more arrogant than others. And I definitely veer towards the arrogance side of the scale. So I don't know if it's this bad for everyone, but there does seem to be a lot of sort of, back and forth, put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm glad that you mentioned, ⁓ that we're, that we're going through it, that we're all, you know, in the meetings that we're all going through it. Right. And, and that just, I mean, the word that comes up is grateful. You know, I'm sure you've heard people say I'm a grateful alcoholic. They, they, know, when they say their name and they say I'm a grateful alcoholic. And I used to, I used to think, what does that mean? Like, why would you be a grateful alcoholic? But, ⁓ you know, all this stuff that we're talking about and all this stuff that we talk about in meetings. Yeah. I want to identify as a grateful alcoholic because it's what got me to these meetings at what it's what got me right here, right now, talking with you about this stuff that really matters. That really makes my life better. You know? ⁓ you know, trying to be aware of my emotions, trying to be aware of ⁓ how I react badly to things and trying to fix those things and, you know, trying to ⁓ practice humility throughout the day. Like all of this stuff just makes me so grateful to be where I'm at today in my sobriety. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that phrase, grateful, grateful alcoholic, you know, I think what it's saying and it says it in this chapter somewhere, ⁓ how lucky we are, it's ⁓ bottom of page 37. Therefore we who are alcoholics can consider ourselves fortunate indeed. Each of us has had his own near fatal encounter with the juggernaut of self-will and has suffered enough to basically try and deal with it. And like we're grateful because who without this incredibly crippling disease would be willing to look at any of this stuff. And how amazing is it that all of these steps that we take essentially against our own will, know, anyone who says I'm 100 % on board with this is lying. we, like that coming in and out of willingness thing. It's like, I want it, I don't want it, I want it, I don't want it. Like we're doing this against the judgment of that part of us that is just cynical and wants to be miserable. so having the courage to actually put that part of us aside and do it anyway, like how lucky are we that we have been brought to a point where we're so on our knees that we're willing to do that. Right. And that reminds me of ⁓ step six where, you know, it says we are entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and I always think, you know, I was just at a meeting last night, we were talking about step six and someone brought that up like entirely ready. Well, I don't know, am I entirely ready? Do I wanna let go of some of these defects of character? Like who am I then? You know, and it mentions that in this chapter too. Like who am I gonna be if I'm not that angry guy or if I'm not whatever, you know? Right. Well, that thing that you said this morning, who am I gonna be if I'm not running? Like I think that's none of us are entirely ready. Cause there's all of us, a, there's something in us that's like, okay, but I don't think I could be happy without that. You know, we're, we're not, we wouldn't be in the rooms if we hadn't admitted that we wouldn't be powerless without the drugs or the alcohol. So, you know, we we've at least admitted that one. And, and step two is really, okay, do you think you could be step one is Do you think you can handle this? No, okay, I can't handle it. Step two is basically, do you think there's a possibility that you could even be happy without it? And there's a point in all of us where we just go, ⁓ no, not that one. And for some of us, it's our kid dying. For some of us, it's ⁓ getting fat. For some of us, it's ⁓ not being able to run anymore, not being able to do certain physical tasks, but that... None of us are entirely ready to say, if I was a blob on a sofa that couldn't do anything and couldn't even wipe my own ass, I could still be happy. And yet all of the great spiritual traditions are like, actually, you could. And people like Helen Keller are like, can, you know? And so am I entirely ready? Hell no. Hell no. But I'm working on it. Yeah. that's, that's why... I continue to go to meetings all the time, because it's progress, not perfection. I'm not looking for perfection. And in fact, ⁓ I don't know that I want perfection, because they talk about ⁓ the goal being, if you're so focused on the goal, you're missing the journey. And the journey, a lot of times, is where all the growth happens. And that's. totally true for me, especially in sobriety. What's my goal in sobriety? To stay sober for today. There's no end goal of dying or never taking a drink again. Dying sober, whatever, it doesn't matter. The goal has to be short term for today only. Because it really is this journey that makes, this journey through sobriety that makes my life ⁓ way better. I think you just unknowingly picked up the place where I'm really struggling currently. You you said, okay, the goal is not to die sober the day is to, the goal is to be sober today. You know, most of my addictions at this point, I'm fairly, I'm fairly like, okay, sure. I am not gonna pick that up for today. ⁓ But I cannot somehow just be happy with the fact that that I'm not entirely happy with my life yet. And I think that's really where I've been struggling to surrender my will. It's like, okay, but tell me on what date this suffering will end, please. ⁓ And when I say suffering, I mean like the torture that I put myself through with my own thinking. I don't mean anything external. ⁓ And I have... you know, been praying my way to it and meditating my way to it and going to meetings and, you know, all of the things. And I just, you know, they say in Buddhism that one of the things you have to give up is like your desperation to reach enlightenment. Like you can't focus on that. That's an attachment like everything else, because like you said, you're not in the day. And I just, I think that's really where I'm going. into the fight ring with higher power at the moment is just, I just, I'm like, I've been doing this for 15 years, God, I want my cookie. And I just, I would love to be able to be like, okay, it's Wednesday. Let's just do Wednesday. Yeah. And so what are the things that you do each day to work on that? To work on, well, not really reaching that goal, but to work on, you know, being- To being present in the day? Yeah, to the Renity today. I mean, going to a meeting, you know, and whenever I'm not with my toddler, I will take myself to an early morning meeting. And that is just, that feels like church to me. ⁓ Doing my meditation and using it in combination with prayer, which of course, you know, step 11 here in the 12 and 12 tells us to, where the meditation is essentially just me sort of watching my own craziness. And then the prayer. is me saying various versions of that set aside prayer of like, I'd like to know the truth about myself and all of the people I'm judging and all of the situations that I'm still not in acceptance about. I'd like to know the truth, please. And, you know, I've been trying to sit down with my higher power in my meditations and instead of expecting something to happen, just saying, okay, I'm here, I'm here. ⁓ And I think that's as close as I've gotten to it at this point. Yeah. Do you think you're good to yourself? I think I've learned to do external things that look better, like slowing down and not putting so many things in my day and not engaging in certain relationships. But like my internal monologue veers in and out very, very quickly from something that on a good day, it sounds like you're doing a great job, but on a bad day, it will very quickly go to you're a fucking idiot. And that's... is still in there. That's not gone away. How about you? Well, that I was just going to say I can relate to that. That's something I do quite often, actually, which I'm trying. I'm aware of it. And I try not to do it. you know, I live alone and I call myself a fucking idiot, like out loud all the time. And, know, kind of jokingly sometimes. But ⁓ when I say that to my friends, no. So it's probably something I shouldn't say to myself. And I've heard that over and over and And I think that's it for me is repetition of hearing things like that, like talk to yourself like you talk to your best friends, you know, instead of talking to yourself, don't talk down to myself, you know, ⁓ practice self care, which I try to do every day. And it sounds like you do too, you know, you go to meetings, you do meditation, you do prayer, you know, ⁓ I try to do as much of that stuff as possible, but yeah, I mean, I'm not perfect. And those... those dark thoughts come into my head all day long, every day. But I think for me, the key is just awareness that they're just thoughts, you know? And I don't have to act on them. They're not true. Most of the time, they're not true. But it's difficult. There was a huge shift in my recovery when I realized, ⁓ everybody has these thoughts. And I... you know, I think that's one of the powers of going to meetings that you just hear various versions of the same thing over and over and over again. And, you know, that's what a fifth step hopefully does for you as well. And, you know, just the recognition that, okay, there's still a voice in my head that says mean things, and it says mean things about me and it says mean things about other people too. And if I think that's me, then I'm in trouble. Because if that voice is me, then I'm really not a very nice person. And, ⁓ you know, so much of, I think, what these steps lead us towards bit by bit by bit by bit is exactly what the mystical traditions lead you towards to or Buddhism or whatever, which is we become more and more and more and more of all of the junk that's happening in here. And then at a certain point, there's a shift. And that shift is us lifting out of our ego and being able to see, oh, none of that's me. And some of us will have brief moments of that. So I've had very brief moments of that that have lasted hours usually. And I've had two or three moments like that. And all, you know, All we're talking about when the Buddha says the end of suffering is just being able to permanently lift out of that and be able to see that ego voice and just constantly know that it's not us. And just, it's like listening to Ego FM. You know, it's like turning on a radio station and Byron Katie, who woke up, I don't know, 40 something years ago. says that sometimes that radio station still comes in and she watches a thought go through, but the difference between her and me and you is that she just laughs at it when it goes through. So, know, ⁓ my God, I'm, I look so fat, know, Byron Casey is like, ⁓ that's a good one. ⁓ And I, if I watch it and I catch it, then maybe I can do a 10th step on it and not completely ruin my day. But if I don't, I can ruin my day with that thought. ⁓ you're looking so fat, Laura. And ⁓ the process of the 12 steps, which the Dalai Lama said the most important spiritual movement of the 20th century was the 12 step movement, because it introduced in very easy, idiot proof terms, for people like me and you who are just spiritual dummies, it taught us like, here is what you need to do to be able to lift yourself out of ego FM. And it's gonna take you years. So, you know, don't get your knickers in a twist about it. Just keep going, keep plotting. But the big book promises us happy, joyous and free. And... If we can just continuously watch that ego FM going past and do 10 steps on it and do another four step if we have to and tell other people about it if we have to and share honestly in meetings, it's really true that all we need is honest, open-minded and willing. We just need to keep showing up and being honest about what's going on here that's crazy in our mind and not blaming other people for it and just finding a way. to be willing enough to really be open to the truth. And that's step three, just willingness to be open to the truth. Easier said than done, for sure. Yes, 100%. Which is why we have to keep coming back. Exactly. You and I both know someone in the meeting, ⁓ in the rooms that ⁓ really struggled for at least the first year with the whole spirituality thing. And like, what is a spiritual experience? And just couldn't get it. And I had to listen to him every meeting that I went to that he was there talk about not knowing what the spirituality thing is and he didn't understand it and everything. you know, that's why they say stay until the miracle happens. And it happened, you know, and now, you know, I look up to him and he, ⁓ you know, he seems to get it, the whole spiritual, spiritual side. He talks about the spiritual axiom all the time. And it's great to watch that happen to people, you know. So. Well, anything else on step three that you want to add, Laura? I can't. He can. I think I'll let him. Absolutely. I love that. Well, I love your take on the steps and how you do sobriety. it's so wonderful to hear you in the meetings, to see you in the meetings. And thank you so much for sharing your time with me. Thank you, Scott. Thank you for having me. Is that right?