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Survived Three Gun Battles & Lived To Tell About It. NYPD Detective Terry McGhee · NYPD Through The Looking Glass

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: What was the most guns you got in one incident?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: On a collar.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: My good friend Tommy Barrett actually did 17 on a car stop one time.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up doing nine in one day.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um three different incidents.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: We went out on patrol, had three guys in the car.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Shots fired, we go around the corner, there's three guys, boom, they take off, boom, boom, boom, three guns.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: My partner takes them in for one collar.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Usually before each time we go out, we try to figure out, okay, who's up first?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who's up?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who needs, okay, you have no collars, blah, blah, blah.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be up first.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So he ended up taking them.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: The second guy jumped in the car with me.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: We go back out to 145th Street.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Around the corner off the bridge comes two guys.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: One of them I know was like a bad kid.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's eyeballing.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: We chase him.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Two guns come out of the windows.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up getting guys.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We get the two guns.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Bring him to the precinct.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Drop them off.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I go back out with a guy from the other anti-crime car.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I see a guy I had previously arrested with a 357 walking southbound on one, like 141-142 in Lennox.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: He does a little boogie into the building.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: We go across the street.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: The guy takes the gun out of his waistband, throws it in the apartment, grab him, blah, blah, blah, get the keys, uh, grab that gun, and then in the apartment there were three other guns.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up getting four on that incident.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so we did a total of nine guns in one day.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is retired NYPD first grade homicide and joint terrorism task force detective Terry McGee.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, welcome to the show.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the uh invite and having an opportunity to speak with you and your audience about my experiences.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, Terry, introduce yourself.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Tell our listeners something about yourself.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 66 years of age, I spent 30 35 years on the NYPD.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh after serving three years in the Army, 82nd Airborne Division.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I went through the ranks from patrol officer, robber squad, homicide squad, and then following the events of 9-11, I uh was fortunate enough to be able to join in the Global War on Terrorism.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, September 25th of 2001, I joined the NYPD FBI, joint terrorism task force, and targeted uh the Al-Qaeda leadership for the next 22 years.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: What years were you active with the NYPD?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I began my career in January of 1987 and uh finished uh in January of 2023.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was forced to retire.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I aged out at 63, so I really didn't have much of a choice.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't want to leave.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was uh very comfortable where I was.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I loved the investigations, but uh you know contracts are what they are, so I had to go.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is correct.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So where'd you where'd you do your NSU?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was assigned NSU three.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because I was a company sergeant, I had the um opportunity to choose the NSU that I went to.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: The only person on the I wouldn't I knew of another person, but the only person I really knew on the job was a uh a guy I used to box with in in New Jersey.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I won the Golden Gloves 1976.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: He won them probably in 78.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: He became an NYPD uh cop.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he was in he was assigned Midtown South.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So he said, look, why don't you come Midtown South?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll show you around, whatever.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I chose NSU 3, which is really Midtown South, Midtown North, and I believe the 17th precinct.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it was it was a good command for me to learn.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I did steady six to twos, working 42nd Street and all of the uh, you know, the Broadway up and down 8th Avenue, and I had an interesting time, made a lot of collars, and it went well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: It I did well.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's part you covered Hell's Kitchen.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: What did you have any dealings with the Westies gang?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Were they still around?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I heard of them.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I really didn't have many dealings with them at the time.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was really uh look an issue through an issue you're kind of out there you're learning on the on the go, and uh I never really had any direct links with the uh Westeed organization.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was something, believe it or not, in the community in New Jersey where I used to box out of, I used to fight out of.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: They had a bunch of crimes happening and they thought it was a trip, they were attributing them to some of the westies, so they heard I was on a PD and working in house kitchen area, so they recruited me, but at, you know, with six months on the job, I knew very, very little about an organization like that.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like on the the street level stuff.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: You always hear about it in the news or in books, but not on the street, not on the street level.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think Jimmy Coonin and Billy Beattie lived in Keaport or around there somewhere.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of went into New Jersey when they were making money and they kind of wanted to get out of the neighborhood a little bit.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the family members went to school with my wife's sisters in the Hazlitt Keaport area, Middletown.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of where I grew up in Mammoth County, uh, New Jersey, after we moved out of the Bronx.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it seems like your hook kind of ended in NSU because after NSU you go to the 3-2 precinct in 1988.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: What was a 3-2 like when you first first, you know, a kid from New Jersey, you did you're in Midtown, now you're going up to Harlem, and Harlem is rocking and rolling in 1988.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my friend who reminded me of that actually, who the fuck did you piss off?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And where is the 3-2?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I called them and I said, Hey, Danny, like what's the story with this priest?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course he went off on me.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh even before I went there, getting uh receiving my assignment, the commanding officer, the sergeant at the time was giving out the assignments, and he said, Oh, Jones, Midtown North, enjoy the shows.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh McConnell, uh 17th, you know, you're gonna study, become a boss, McGee, wear your vest.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: 3-2 precinct.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at him and said, like, well, what the hell does that mean?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I like to study.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to go to a movie, maybe, or something, you know.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So off I went to the 3-2, and uh I learned very, very early on what the meaning of where that vest uh came from.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when you look at the wall as you enter the precinct and see the 24 black and white images of those cops who just went to work and never returned home alive, it makes you really wonder.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now there are 26 on the wall because of the death and the murder of um Officer Mora and Rivera, I think it was.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it was uh it's a it's a a stark reminder every day going in and out of that precinct, like what's what what's out there, you know, and uh and I f I found out eventually, or almost found out, you know, when I was shot, but it was a it was a uh for me w it set the tone for the remainder of my career.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: The people I worked with, the people I worked for, the um the work ethic of putting in the time and plus I was raised my family on that job.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I bought my home off the overtime and working hard and you know making collars and some of the interviews I went on, you know, later on for the anti-cri for the not the anti-crime, but for the um the rip and for narcotics, you know, they asked you a few questions.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: How many collars have you made?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: How many medals do you have?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: How many days have you been out sick?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sick.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I said, well, I made a lot of collars.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I I have a few medals, and uh I never went sick uh in all the years other than being shot.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Never went like a regular administrative sick.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So uh line of duty a couple times, car accidents getting shot, and then the injury later on.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: But uh so uh the 3-2 I really worked with some really solid, solid, great cops, great bosses, and it really got my career off to a uh a good start, that's for sure.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to touch upon some of the color colorful characters that inhabited the 3-2.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, did you have any dealings with Clarence, Preacher Heatley, and the preacher group?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the first the first few m weeks probably, I was in the 3-2.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I went upstairs to the detective squad.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I spoke to uh one of the two homicide detectives that were assigned to the 3-2, uh, which was a little un unusual because it was only because of the amount of homicides they actually assigned the in the 3-2, they actually assigned these two detectives down there.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked them, like, give me some names of like really bad guys that I should keep my ears open for.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Clarence Preacher Heatley was the number one guy, the number one name.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And a few years after I was in the 3-2, well, it was only a couple of months when I ran into Clarence Heatley on the street, and then a couple of years after that, I really started to get to know like a lot of the players, and and there was the death of Richie Porter, a very well-known drug dealer in the community.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: His 12-year-old brother was kidnapped and murdered.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was up in the Brops, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Up in the 4-5 area.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then Richie Porter disappeared, and at the time it was believed that uh Preacher had something to do with it, and there was like a bolo or be on the lookout and for Clarence Preacher for Clarence Heathe.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I saw his car on 145th Street going westbound.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I told my partner with a Virginia plate.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a you know uh Mercedes-Benz type vehicle.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Virginia plate.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I saw and saw him in the car, made the U-turn.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up picking them up, bringing them in, and uh I bring them into the four- to the uh 3-2 detective squad, and I ended up having to testify at Preacher's trial in uh in Manhattan, in Manhattan DA's office, and that was probably around 91, 92, maybe.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I had a few run-ins, and people on the street would even tell you, like, if he asked you for$100, you give him$1,000.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he is just bad.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: He ran a number of the crews and a lot of the uh narcotics trafficking up in the Harlem area.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Did you deal with any of that?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: He had two housing cops on the payroll, a guy by the name of Robert Bonds that was later killed by the Westies, and another guy, John Cuff, and then there was another guy, Anthony Boltwright.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Did you deal with them at all?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I never dealt with them.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh Cuff, I heard his name being mentioned a number of times, and always told just to be aware that there is someone who had you know ties with the PD, now uh, you know, working with Preacher or is associated with Preacher.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I never at least not that I can recall, any direct dealings with him.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, were there any remnants of the old heroin gangsters, like the crew from uh Nicky Barnes or Frank Lucas still floating around in 3-2 precinct?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the heroin really was in like isolated pockets of the 3-2.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um lower part of Manhattan, 127th, 128th Street, then you had it up on 144, um, you had Aries, you had small pockets, crack was really taking over.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh even like with the West Indian cartels, uh the Spangle Posse, the Kirkers, they were becoming more notorious and more prevalent in the precinct and more violent, believe it or not.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: They were literally kicked, you know, some of the locals like right off of like Edgecombe Avenue, even though Edgecomb kind of belonged to the Trio, I we we had one side of, I believe, Hedgecomb.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they really became like a a dangerous, dangerous group of uh narcotic traffickers up in that precinct.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't really deal with um, I heard always, you know, about the um Nicky Barnes and the names like that, but I think they were even more prominent down in like 116 in Manhattan, which was the 2A precinct.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, as a young cop, you got involved in breaking up a gun running crew out of Yonkers.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up befriending somebody, someone from the neighborhood when I lived over in uh over in the 5-2 precinct area.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I was on my way home from the range one day, and I was ascending the stairs into my building.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: A guy comes up, says, Hey Terry, how my hey, what are you doing?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we engaged in a conversation.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up driving around.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is before cell phones or anything.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm in the car, I have my 38 on me, and I had a little 25 that I kind of kept with me, so I kind of kept my hand because I didn't know what the story was.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew a little bit about this person, but I didn't know him really well.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a f a couple months after I had been shot, so you know, my name and stuff was in the papers, I was on the news a few times.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but we ended up he ended up calling someone and uh got a guy on the phone and you know, talking.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: One thing led to another, another.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I'm in the anchors now.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: About 10, 11 o'clock at night.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: My wife was expecting me home at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was, like I said, on my way home from the rains.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was going up the stairs into the building.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So she's wondering like what the hell's going on, but like I'm I'm going with this.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where, and I don't know why, because like I was way out off base.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I go out of the, go to this apartment and inside on this in the ceiling of this guy's apartment, like a you can remove the tiles, the styrofoam tiles.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: He starts pulling out all these handguns like uh in boxes, and I'm looking at them.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're all consecutively serial numbered, brand new weapons.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a I'm a jump collar guy at this.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an anti-crime cop.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had, I think, literally three years on the job.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but we had just come out of doing a couple of cases uh with ATF, with the DEA, NYPD, uh Drug Firearms Task Force, DEA guys.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I did I even testify in that.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I forget if I testified in the Southern District of New York, but so I made a few friends with some federal agents.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I'm thinking like, whoa, I'm way out of my uh my area of comfort right now.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: My zone of comfort.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I told the guy, look, keep the keep the friggin' guns there.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Take a ride with me.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: We go down to the 3-2.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's about 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I run into the ICO, and I'm like, hey boss, I got this little thing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm off duty.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was at the range today, but he was used to like things happening in the 3-2 with us.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I said, I got this guy, he's out in the car, he's looking to turn over some of these, you know, people, and he's looking to turn over these guns.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, uh, uh, you don't have the guns with you.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I said, No, no, no, I left them up there.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he said, Let me go call the boss.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the boss at that time was Chief Madarasso.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I mean, like a solid, solid guy.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Great, you know, loves workers.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So comes back and he's like, okay, uh, you know, the boss said, just run with it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, like, what the hell does that mean?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, run with it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I told him I said I want to call up some of these federal agent ATF, I want to make the introduction or whatever.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I go down to 26, I finally get someone on the phone, I go down to 26 Federal Plaza, we end up signing this person up, and for a week now, I'm assigned, like, I don't know how.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I could think it was just like a verbal, hey, he's gonna be there running with this guy.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm showing up at the DEA firearms, NYPD task force.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, people are looking at me like, well, who's this guy?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: How did he get here?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh after about a week, I started feeling like, you know what, I'm more comfortable back in the 3-2.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh these guys are conducting long-term.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not looking to go to the firearms task force.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't looking, I w I wasn't interested in learning the job, but turned out that they ended up um seizing, I think, like 46 guns or something from this group of individuals that I don't want to get too deep into it, but uh, and I ended up working with that person for a couple of years afterwards.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um, kind of on like the side, you know what I mean?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so um, but it worked out really well.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: But that was the environment.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And Matter, you know, Chief Madaraza would say, well, we had three shootings up on 148th Street.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: What tour are you doing?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're getting off at, you know, we were doing like, say, 10 in the morning to six in the evening.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: He'd say, All right, uh, just stay.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Stay as long as it takes you to do what you need to do.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that was the attitude back then.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, we go uptown and bounce around and ten minutes later come back with a gun collar, or three hours later come back with a robbery collar.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he wanted arrest and he wanted the crime, like we used to call it, stop the violence overtime, STV overtime.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was the motto that we were operating under.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it was an interesting place to work, that's for sure.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of guns, you survived the shooting in the Drew precinct.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share that story?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was in an anti-crime.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I literally went to the precinct in January of 88.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And by February of 89, I was assigned to the anti-crime team.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh my first day out, we ended up getting two guns off of two guys and with one of my partners, so so I was kind of like in right off the bat, you know, and uh but that particular day was August 20th of 1990.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was my RDO.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I was down in court with my three partners and my boss.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: We uh came back uptown and uh changed into, you know, our work attire, not uniform, plainclothes, and um got into the car, made a right turn at 134th Street and 7th Avenue.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: There were a group of kids there that was just shooting the night a couple nights before.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: One guy sees us, starts to take off.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: He ends up dumping like six ounces of cocaine.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: We pick him up, bring him in, we drop him off, we give him to one of the uniform sectors, because we weren't really into the drug collars, you know.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Come back out of the prison, make a left turn, go up to 145th Street.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they had previously designated uh 145th Street like a safe corridor because of all of the taxicare delivery drivers that were killed citywide.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So certain areas of the pre- of the city were designated as safe corridors.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and we were always on the look for people traveling from Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: The drug capital of the country was right next door to us, the 3-0 and the 3-4 precinct.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So guys would come across you know the avenue with shoeboxes, twenty, thirty, forty thousand dollars, and you know, always carrying a gun or whatever for protection.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: But we see this car one day, a livery vehicle, traveling from west to east, going back towards the Bronx.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they're we're between Lennox and seventh now.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And four guys in the car, in the in the in the subject car.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there are four of us, four white guys in a car in home.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not we're all pretty healthy.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're not looking like we're drug dealers or drug consumers.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the one guy in the front kind of looks over and gives us the eyeball, and then he leans forward towards the front seat, this the floor of the car.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the other three occupants kind of look back and then look at each other, and they're kind of like talking amongst each other, looking back periodically.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we made the turn in the traffic.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're a couple of car lengths behind them.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we cut through the gas station at one point to get a better angle on the car to see if we can catch it to stop it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're about a car length behind, and I jump out of the time, and I was in the front passenger seat, I believe.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I knock on the quarter panel on the rear, rear quarter panel on the passenger side, and I just announce, like, police, let me see your hands, put your hands up, let me see your hands.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And 90% of the time, you know, we try to contain the situation.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, keep in.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want four guys blasting out, going in six different directions, car pursuit, you know, we wanted to contain it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Cops running through traffic, you know, running dodging cars.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So usually guys either if they're gonna run, they're gonna dump the gun or whatever, uh, or leave it in the car.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: This guy decided, as soon as I banged on the quarter panel, opened up the door, and fired.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: One shot, so I had my hand on my 38.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think because of my boxing days, I was, you know, more inclined to grab you and hate you if I had to, you know.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I kept my pistol kind of in my holster a lot.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, I pulled it out a lot, but it I just always erred on the side of keeping it in and not risking an accidental discharge either.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my hand on my my weapon on my holster, I had my 38 at the time.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: The guy opens the door, fires.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, holy, now it now it comes out.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: The car takes off about 20 feet, 30 feet, and I'm trying to get a shot into the car, and the door opens up again, the car stops, the door opens up, the gun comes out, and now the guy takes off running, and I yell to my partner, you know, Patty, grab the gun.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because it'll go, it'll disappear.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I chased him for about 20 yards, the guy who shot me, and tackled him in the uh gas station, actually, like another gas station, slightly east of the one we cut through.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um he resisted and struggling and bang, bang, bang, you know, a couple of shots here and there, cuff him up, and I put my whole, you know, my gun away or whatever, and cuff him up, and then like pick them up and bring them back.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and then the the big guy get out of the front seat of the car, and I thought he was going to go.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of leveled my pistol at him and said, get flat, like get on the ground.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you and he complied.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: He complied.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Little did we know there was a Tech9 machine gun in the front seat of the car under which is where he was leaning, and then uh another, I think a 380 on the other side of the car.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that my partners were wrestling with they were some wrestling with some of the other guys.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I bring the guy back, I draw him across the trunk of the car, and I look down on my shirt, and I see like my white t-shirt has that, you know, the blood, and then there's a hole in my t-shirt, and I lift up the shirt, and I'm looking, I'm like, and I see it like a perfect round circle.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the uh and then dead center was a hole, maybe a small little bit smaller than my pinky.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking like this mother frick fucker just shot me.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm shocked still, you know?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And my partners are looking at me now, and they're looking at the hole like, what the Central 1013 cops 145, when is this having that?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And within seconds, the troops came, the cavalry came, guys from the Bronx, narcotics division, all the sectors in the precinct.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So they put me in the back of the uh the uh marked vehicle, closed off all the streets from from 145th over to Broadway, shot up by the Broadway to uh Columbia Press.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: But on the way over there, you know, I was taking my shield off.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: I gave it to the partner, uh Poli D'Entramont, used to be a chief on the job under Shea, he was in charge of the uh the police commissioner's office.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Worked in the 4.7, worked in the 4.6 with Tommy Galati.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he's Matter Rasso them, but I think Tommy Galati.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, so I gave on Paulie, like, here's my shield, here's my pistol, my 38.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I gave him my radio, and then I'm I kind of looked down in the back seat of the car again.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like shocked at what had just transpired, and uh I grabbed the skin around the hole and the bullet popped out.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So Paulie is now looking at me like, what the hell is that?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I the fucking projectile.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I got, I said, I'll hold on to this.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I held on to it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I gave it to the doctor when we got to the precinct.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I got to the hospital, and uh, and then I said, Look, don't tell my wife, whatever you do, please, you guys, don't say anything to my family, whatever.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: But and they're like, listen, it's all it's 4:30 in the afternoon, August 20th, a Monday.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful day, it's all over the news right now.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the PD, you know, went out, had somebody pick up my wife.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: My mother lived down in Manhattan at the time.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: They went down to get her, they brought her to the hospital, and da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, I was very lucky though.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, thank God.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very fortunate.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: How much time did that guy get?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up going to trial.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's funny, the DA in Manhattan at the time, when I first went down to speak with her about the incident, she said, like, well, just one of the first questions.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: She asked, Well, can you please explain to me how the uh the perp got it broke his thumb?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking at her like, I'm sitting here with a freaking bullet hole, which you know, they did the surgery or whatever, not even fully recovered.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you're worried about his thumb?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, you know, I guess after he shot me and he ran and then he resisted, you know, he may have fallen and broke it.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I what do you want me to tell you?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do he brought it?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we ended up going to trial.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: He got 5 to 15 on the aggravated assault of a police officer.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the logic of the jury at the time was uh he had a five or seven-shot revolver.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: If he uh was intending to kill you, he would have discharged more than one round.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, of course, they'll put a lot of people have succumbed to wounds, you know, and injuries from just one bullet shot wound.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but look, uh I thank God, you know, I survived number one, and the people that were there with me, we were involved with a lot, a lot of similar incidents right up until that point.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And evenly immediately following, I stayed out of work for almost two or three weeks, two or three weeks.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: My first day back, we end the first day back with one of my partners, we end up chasing two guys with two guns coming from the Bronx.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: They were uh they were getting chased after a baseball game, and they ran into the 3-2.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking up and I see about eight baseball players with bats and red shirts, and they're like, yo, we're gonna get these two guys.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we go around the corner and like, holy shit, there, there are two guys.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And one guy was like hugging something of a pistol under his arm, the other guy had it in the backpack.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So boom, off to the races, here we go.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: One guy goes one way, one the other, and uh my partner Tommy chased that guy, got him, and I ended up chasing the other guy.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like, okay, uh back to business, you know, in the 3-2.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: What was the most guns you got in one incident?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: On a collar.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: My good friend Tommy Barrett actually did 17 on a car stop one time.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up doing nine in one day.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, three different incidents.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: We went out on patrol, had three guys in the car.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Shots fired, we go around the corner, there are three guys, boom, they take off, boom, boom, boom, three guns.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: My partner takes them in for one collar.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh usually before each time we go out, we try to figure out, okay, who's up first?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who's up?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who needs, okay, you have no collars, blah, blah, blah, you'll be up first.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So he ended up taking them.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: The second guy jumped in the car with me.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: We go back out to 145th Street, around the corner off the bridge, comes two guys.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: One of them I know was like a bad kid.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's eyeballing, we chase him.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Two guns come out of the windows.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up getting guys, we get the two guns, bring him to the precinct, drop them off.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I go back out with a guy from the other anti-crime car.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I see a guy I had previously arrested with a 357 walking southbound on one, like 141-142 in Lennox.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: He does the little boogie into the building.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: We go across the street, the guy takes the gun out of his waistband, throws it in the apartment, uh, grab him, blah, blah, blah, get the keys, uh, grab that gun, and then in the apartment, there are three other guns.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up getting four on that incident.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so we did a total of nine guns in one day.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was a bit, it was a good day.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was a good, it was a good day.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I I ended up getting information one time from a guy.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: This one I was like on a foot post for a you know, the first year and the three, two, and we ended up uh I ended up doing some kind of unorthodox vertical policing of my own.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I ended up getting seven guns out of uh a spot that these guys were running.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the guns were out there.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just uh amazing the amount of uh hardware or firearms in there, and they weren't afraid to carry him on the street, you know.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, grabbing one guy with two guns on him is was like not common, but you came across it, it happened.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I grabbed a guy that was wanted by the Bronx detectives with a uh a silencer, a 25 Baretta with a really, really well-made silencer.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that was according to the guys from um ballistics.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: They were uh when they tested the weapon, they said, hey, that gun, we can we have an idea where it was made because we've only seen a few others, but that is like a very, very well-made silencer.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the detective in the Bronx called me up like two hours before.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now before and said, hey, I'm looking for a car.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: We go out, but up, here comes 148th Street, here comes the car, we chase it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Guy throws the friggin' gun out the window, and uh then he ended up making a turn into uh oncoming traffic and he was stuck.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So so uh yeah, yeah.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was an interesting place to work.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, from the 3-2, you go to the 2-3 rip, which is robbery identification program, and that's supposed to be more of a gentleman's type thing.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's business casual, right?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think you're gonna go out and make jump collars, but you were in the 2-3 rip and you got involved in two shootings up in Spanish Hall.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I did, and uh I brought some of that because that was the only way I knew how to work, you know.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Come into the prison through your paperwork and go out on patrol.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Get out there, be visible for the community, you know, it's your job you're being paid.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And also just be out there for the other cops.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, if they're chasing someone or if they need backup, that's part of your job, you know, your responsibility.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it didn't resonate really well, being on the I'm in the bureau now.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, technically, you know.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I um and I had a couple of issues with some of the bosses there, and they took me off the chart and put me on regular Monday to Friday.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but I worked through it.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I met a couple of really good guys there that um that I ended up working with.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And made uh we made a few collars, and yeah, I got into a what was the uh the first one?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: The first went in '94.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up um 10 o'clock at night going down.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just left the precinct.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: We were involved with some robbery stuff earlier.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: We said, all right, let's go out.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: We were doing, I could think, working from like a four to one or something like that.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And make the I look up the block and I see a group of guys kind of on 104th Street, kind of moving about.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like so I said, you know what, let's just take a look.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I go, I drive the wrong way up 2nd Avenue.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Driving the wrong way, and well, you know.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: You do what you gotta do.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up going the wrong way up 2nd Avenue from 102nd Street.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: The guy shot like nine times.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: To tell you the truth, it was a cop's gun.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was stolen out of a cop's car.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of months earlier, and uh so the guy shoots three people on the east side of 104th, 105th Street, but he's running southbound.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's running in my direction now, and he has the gun up as he's running, shooting, and then as soon as he sees the car, the only car going northbound on 2nd Avenue at 10 o'clock at night, he puts the gun down and he's looking, he stops running and he's walking, walking, and he starts to raise the gun up in my direction.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had stopped the car.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: My partner heard the door.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: My partner on the in the passenger seats ran after uh some other guys on the east side, and I this guy started pointing his weapon at me.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I jumped out of the car, you know, police, whatever.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then by the time I think I even got the word police out, I shot and uh hit him once in the shoulder, and once, I believe they said under the chin.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he goes down.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I ran over and, you know, make sure he got cuffed, recovered the gun, off to the hospital, you know, you know, usual police procedures.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the three people, there were three individuals that were also shot on the east side.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think they all survived.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one in the foot, one in the leg, and I think one got it in the ass, but it was a drug thing, you know.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I was very, I was very fortunate again to be with a guy that was very uh any Lazada, like a really a solid guy, um, good investigator.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he was kind of with me on my second shooting in the 2-3 when he was back at the uh precinct doing an interview of a complainant of mine who spoke Spanish.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I said uh with another guy went out and uh actually I knew the other guy from the the uh 3-2.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: He was now in the rip also, and uh I said, John, come on, let's go take a ride.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the same time the robbery happened, you know, a couple nights ago, let's go take a ride by the neighborhood and see what's happening.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's all.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I drive, I'm driving south on Lexington, and it's like seven o'clock at night, you know.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think it was February.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I have my window down like I normally always, always, and I see this people, a couple guys arguing, and the two kids closer to me, one big kid, one little bit smaller, younger, you know, 16 to 20, arguing with an older Spanish man with a little boy.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, hey, you know, Papi, what's going on?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: My man, everything all right, you know?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm my mind is on the on the robbery that happened.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to look for things, look for people, cars, whatever.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Business owners that may be out there.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the one guy kept walking, the one guy further north kept walking and looking back, looking back.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: The other kid stopped.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, you know, sorry, you okay?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Everything good?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know these guys, you know, they talk too much, they talk too much.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I literally called the guy back.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, he was about 25 feet away.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: He came within like 10 feet.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Big guy, come on.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful night out here.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are we doing?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta give the guy a hard time, like let it go.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's okay, officer, it's cool, man.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's costing all right, go on your way.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I told my partner, like, we gotta go take a look at that other guy.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was the other one who really raised my suspicion.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I said to the old man, I said, Mister, you sorry, you okay?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: You good up?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: You good?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I go around the corner, I come back to 101st Street, I think it was.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I come back south.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as I made the turn, I look over.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's the there's that other subject who was walking away.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't even say anything.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just stopped the car and my partner knew immediately.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I jumped out and the guy made a beeline into the building, but I grabbed him.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I grabbed him, it turned him, you know, as he was running away.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: I grabbed him, put his hand up, whatever, and I took either a 9 or a 45 off of him.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: So put him on the ground.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to get my cuffs out.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had the radio in my hand, and uh I hear like scuffling on the sidewalk.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like I hear clothing and just they were only 15 feet away.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, John, grab that guy.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: I grab him.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I hear him trying to stop him and trying to put his hand on him, and I see the guy like swap a swatting at his hand, and next thing I know, I see him reach in, and I get the freaking chills every time when I talk about it.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: The guy reached into his waistband and pulled out this cannon and put it like dead point blank in my partner's face.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember my partner kind of like moving in an area, like not sure if he should go to the couldn't grab the guy, would not sure if he should go towards the the street for cover, building line.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: He ends up going towards the building line, and now the guy is the guy with the gun is backing away, so 15 feet, 18 feet, 25 feet.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: But as he's following my partner with the gun towards the building line, he's about you know 30 feet away at this time.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still on the ground with my knee, I think, and the guy's back or on the concrete.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I had pulled my gun out because I didn't know if his gun worked or anything like that.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I put his gun away, I dropped my coughs, I dropped the radio, and now as I see the guy go from the building line where my partner was and came back at me, I shot at him.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: I missed.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then my partner came out of the uh like the building area.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like the doorway.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: He just went in to see cover to save his life.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he looked at me and he was like as white as the seal.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I'm like, John, grab that guy, go get him, you know?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up cutting, I fell as soon as I discharged, when I discharged, I felt the guy on the ground that beneath me go even flatter.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: He went like literally went flat.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Stop resisting, whatever.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then so Eddie Lazada, then my partner John went around the corner and started chasing him.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I put over the pursuit.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: My partner, which unbeknownst to me, I learned later on that my partner Eddie Lazada ran out of the precinct with no friggin' vest on, sees the guy running across Third Avenue, chases the guy into the projects, ends up capturing the guy, and we ended up recovering the gun.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that gun, that weapon, maybe your positive ID, the whole nine yards, duty captain came, and that weapon was when we you know we removed all the the ammo and the clip.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: That weapon had a uh an indentation on the primer indicating that the uh weapon had been the trigger had been pulled.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it just really like like that was my partner.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that happened to him, and it happened to us.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's a moment that to this day I can't you know I it just gets me choked up talking about it because his wife is pregnant and um it was just it was one of those things that and it turned out the guy I had on the ground, his weapon came back ballistically.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um they've he was involved in the home invasion a few weeks earlier where they killed the drug dealer up in the 3-4 precinct, and as they as they were leaving the building, the scooter cops from the 3-4 showed up on the street, they ended up unloading on the freaking thing.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: And his gun, the the that weapon, the head that I recovered matched ballistically to the homicide and the uh the shooting of the cops, shooting at the cops.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: But uh they I don't you know tell you the truth, I forget what even what they got, how much time.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: That was like '95.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then the captain and the uh the the two three said, look, you need a bigger gun.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: You need because I still had the 38 at the time.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh believe it or not, like even after two rounds, I'm already starting like thinking about reloading, you know?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so uh it was uh it was a it was a I loved the two three.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: I loved working in the two three because you had a good mixture.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: My neighborhood, I used to live in the 19th back in the day, so I knew the area down there and you know it was vibrant kind of area.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Just enjoyed working there.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um uh and you know, yeah, it came in spurts to crime, you know.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: We'd make two, we would make a gun collar for a month and go out and make three in one week or whatever, you know.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was it was weird the way it worked out.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was a good time.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I worked in Manhattan North Narcotics and I had the two, three, and you're right.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of guns because you had all the drug spots.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there were guys to rip off the drug dealers, you had an enforcer sometimes, like one tenant elect because it was such a busy spot.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: There was always a guy with a gun floating around there because they didn't want the spot to get ripped off.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there were uh there were um because of the housing, there were a lot of pattern robberies, you know, happening inside, elevator robberies.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you had these kids sometimes that grew up in those communities, they lived in those projects and they became emboldened and empowered.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so but we figured out ways of uh, you know, uh cat catching them.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was uh look, you just have to be out there, you know what I mean?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's really you just have to stay vigilant.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was it was an interesting place to work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of interesting places to work, you went from the frying pan into the fire when you went to the NYPD's prestigious street crime unit.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you must have been like a kid in a candy store with citywide access to all these hot spots.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was um we were sent there as detectives, and I think about 12 or 15 detectives citywide, and we were assigned like the taxi squad, which we were enhancing the uh arrests that street crime made, trying to generate more uh intelligence, generate more numbers, search warrants.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: But they assigned me and the other detective from the 3-2 to two boroughs, Queens and Brooklyn.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now each borough had over a hundred robbery patterns.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know nothing about Queens.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I know very little about Brooklyn.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: But we ended up uh doing a lot of uh a lot of good work uh citywide, but we were the new guys on the block also.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you had the robbery squad, you had the anti-crimes, you had the uh you had the uh local borough, the borough crimes.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have street crime like units doing robbery pattern, and we ended up making a lot of collars um and doing a lot of good enhancements.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh one time we were actually out and a guy was working for a gun store in Nassau, and he was tasked to bring three hundred guns from Nassau County to New Jersey, but along the Bell Parkway, he deviated and he gets off in the 7-5, and he starts selling the guns.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: 300.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: So day one, everybody was out there, Nassau, ATF, NYPD, FBI, Task Force, whatever, and all the local guys.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Anamol at the time calls up, I think it was Animal, called up street crime, says, hey, I want you guys out there now.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Today.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: We want this guy.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we found out where the car was, we found some of the boxes of guns.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I ran into a friend of mine who was in like that task force.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I said, hey, you know, Danny, what's the story with this guy?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Da-da-da.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he gave me a picture of the guy.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I swear to God, this is just the way.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: We go and get a coffee.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: We said, let's do some background checks on this guy, find out where he took some collars in the 7-5.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll kind of stake out and like we'll hit that area there.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: I see a cab go by with a female in the back of the car, and just and she was just like very like active in the car.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: She was all over and she's bouncing around, and right alongside of her, I see the head at the top of the head of somebody.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I said, let's go take a look at this freaking car.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Something this doesn't seem right.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we pull the car over somewhere in the 7-5, and uh I'm with my partner from the 3-2 and the boss, and uh take the girl out, not then take the guy out.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I look up at the guy, I'm like, holy shit.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: I said, cuff that, cuff him, just cuff him.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, no gun, no magazines, no paperwork, no bullets, nothing.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, 300 guns, you just can't keep one of them on you, you know?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not or her.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it turns out it's the guy.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we put over, you know, Central uh B Vise were holding one.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so a couple guys from like the other units came and they were like, oh no, we'll we'll we'll take them in, we'll do that.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we got us.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lieutenant's like, everybody back off.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're taking them in.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we end up bringing them to the uh to the uh the 7-5 and turn them over.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, we had them really for like as far as that goes, like no violations.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: And my lieutenant at the time was like, well, no, we should take the collar.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Lou, I'm not, we're not the subject matter experts on this arrest.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the paper, the violations.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let them charge them federally, whatever the case may be.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a nice write-up for the street crime unit, you know.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go out and get our own thing.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it was uh one of those things where even Animal called up, terray, what are you doing?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, blah, blah, blah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we did what we had to do, got the guy off the street, and um, I don't know whatever happened with I know a bunch of guns were recovered, but I don't know, out of 300, I know.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't want to gloss across your career because I could sit here all day and ask you a million or one questions about street crime.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I just I I just so from street crime you uh you go to Bronx Homicide, which that's where I would bump into you periodically.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you something, because I know I to understand this.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain how a a borough homicide unit operates and how they interact with a precinct squad when there's a murder in a precinct?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the task force, the homicide task force that I worked on, under Lieutenant O'Toole, I think at the time, was extremely well-known, knowledgeable, great boss to work for.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um we were really there to assist the local precinct detectives.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we're when when somebody in the precinct would catch a homicide or somebody likely to die, uh, a homicide detective would work alongside um the precinct detective.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: And normally the precinct detectives are off the chart for I think five days while they catch a homicide or after they caught a homicide, but then they have to go back.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like where the real the real uh effectiveness of the homicide detective is if that person's not identified or caught, they can follow up on that investigation and give the detective a little breathing room because he's gonna go back to catching assaults, robberies, you know, uh theft, auto-theft, whatever the kid, domestic violence.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you can catch 20, 30, 40 cases in a week if you, you know, in some of these squads.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we would uh respond to the homicides and whatever precinct in the borough, all the precincts.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we would work alongside those detectives in an effort to identify and then arrest uh the perpetrators.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we um I had a great team.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with Malcolm Ryman, a really, really solid investigator, a great guy, dedicated hard worker, and um he came from street crime.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Also, he was in street crime when I was there.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we had a we had a good team and we we worked, and then there were times when things got a little slow, and I say that, like nobody was killed in the week in the Bronx.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: We would go to like the 4-0, the 4-2, and take out some of and go look through some of the old, like late 80s, mid-80s uh homicide where there were only one or two D D5s.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you, we pulled out folders.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was like response 61, the copy 61, the unusual, and two DD5s showed up at the scene and went to the morgue the next day or whatever, and that was it.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you gotta back in again the early 80s, mid-80s, to mid to late 80s, they were catching two, three, four, five a week sometimes.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was that busy, you know.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we actually did quite well investigating some of those old homicides that just sat there unsolved.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, created a little consternation with some of the be some of the bosses.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, well, I keep well look, we're not taking the collars.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do the investigation to the best of our ability and then share it with one of your detectives.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we're helping you with the clearance rate and you know, getting the bad guy off the street if he's not already off the street.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Malcolm was, you know, perfect, fine working with that at that speed, you know.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was good.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let me throw a couple of murders in the Bronx, see if you remember them or if you worked on him.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: Did were you involved or worked with the murder in Frenchies bar on East Tremont Avenue?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I worked with that with a f another partner of mine, and um just happened I lived in the air, I lived in the precinct.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I got to know the family a little bit.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were there was talk about that case being uh somehow linked to people who were part of like the purple gang way, way back in the in the in the Bronx, like in the 70s or 80s, I believe.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um look, anytime there's a murder like that, especially in the community that you live in, right?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: You even take more of an interest because there are a lot of people on the periphery whose names came, you know, to the surface.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we ended up, I I remember working with Charlie Vellani, I think it was on that case.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think he had that case and worked closely with one of the DAs.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of his name right now, from the Bronx DA's office, but yeah, I was familiar.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of the brothers worked as a doorman down with 32B, I believe.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he worked in the union, and uh that bar was right down the street from you know Interesting.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right down the right down the street from where I lived.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, yeah, I uh that I did work on that case.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a m case of mistaken identity.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: The guy went in to kill one brother and he shot the other brother because they looked a lot alike.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there were a couple of brothers, I don't want to mention their names, but uh uh uh tough kids from what I understand from the neighborhood, and that kind of led to, well, is it retaliation because one guy may have whacked another guy, you know, over something like annoyus, or is it something more, is it union related?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something or just, you know, just like business that we're not aware of right now.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, we think they I I again I think I I know the name of the guy who I think eventually was um charged with that case, but uh I think it happened a few years after uh I d uh I think it didn't have it wasn't quick, that's for sure.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a quick uh solving, it wasn't solved quickly.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: You had the case, George, George from uh Canada, Scasha, the banana guy from Canada.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um dump job up in the 4-7.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: I caught that case and um with the detective from the 4-7, and um, you know, it was uh very, very, very close to home.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, I went to the jewelry store the Christmas before, bought my wife earrings, and the first when we went to make the notification to the family of uh Shasha, the first person who showed up, and that was up in upstate New York somewhere, the first person that showed up was the owner of the jewelry store.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: We knew right off the bat the homicide it was mob related, it was connected somehow.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: 70-year-old guy, flashy, you know, leather jacket, 3,000 in his pocket or whatever, Rolex watch, while it's still intact and dumped under it, no dumping sign.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was there was a message being sent.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I ran the plate for a couple of weeks and then I found the car actually in my old neighborhood in Yorkville.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I called up, I think it was Billy Neary, Detective Neary.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: I called him up and said, Billy, I got the friggin' car down here.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they ended up sending somebody down.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was on my way to court.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so uh the car, the car was recovered.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: We worked on it, and uh I remember going through some of the uh personal effects of Shasha, and I came across some cards and some things that were very, very close to people that I knew in communities.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it turns out that um it sounded like it was, it seemed like it was a payback for somebody Shasha taking the proceeds from like drug sales or whatever up in Canada.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: But um I lived in the neighborhood and I had family.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: My kids were growing up in the school, growing up in the neighborhood, and went to school with some of the children or the of some of their family members.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, and I let my boss know.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had a conversation with him about, you know, some of the sensitivities of the case.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it turned out that that case uh was eventually assigned to an FBI task force member who after 9-11 I ran into on a uh one night playing basketball.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Hey, how you doing?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's your name?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Mike, how you doing, Terry?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where you worked, oh, and the Bronx.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Oh, you know, what kind of what's the family?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, the bananos, and I'm like, well, I said, Well, are you familiar with the Shah Shak case?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked at me, he's like, Yeah, that's one of my cases.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that was my case early on first, you know.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we ended up speaking, and then he and he introduced me to the U.S.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: attorney over in the Eastern District of New York, and I explained to him things that I knew just from living in the neighborhood and also being a cop, and I ended up testifying at the trial of my neighbor.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was somebody that lived right down the street from me, like very, very close.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, it was one of those things where, you know, it was like the cop and then the capo, like in the same neighborhood, and you know, I know what you do, and you know what I do, and you know.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: It is what it is.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, may or may not, our paths may meet, whatever, or you know, so uh they did cross though at some point.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, what did you ever have a homicide call or lock up a guy for a homicide that you thought might have the potential to be a serial killer?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Two guys.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um they drug sellers, drug dealers from uh 1010 East 178 Street, up in the West Farm area.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the 48 Precinct, the uh I forget the name of it.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a 22-story building.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: But uh there was a girl, prostitute, young girl, 20s, uh selling drugs, whatever, you know, just a terrible kind of life that she was in.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: And she was skimming off the top, and there was there were two guys.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: One lived in that building and uh I could think up on like the 16th floor or something.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was another one that was vis another guy that was visiting his cousin.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think she lived on the twelfth floor, and the girl, the victim, was beaten, taken hostage, brought up to one of the apartments, they raped her, they beat her up, they smacked her around, they put a gag in her mouth, walked her, because the elevators were out, I remember the day.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: The elevators were out, they walked her from like the twelfth floor up to the twenty-second floor, and one two, one guy grabbed her under the arms, one guy grabbed her by her feet, and over the fence, twenty-two stories.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: She grabbed onto the fence at some point and one of the perps started stomping on her fingers until she let go.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she fell into the courtyard.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was a Saturday.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: Kids were out there playing, families, you know, sitting on the park bench or whatever.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: And she hit the concrete and hit the floor.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was crazy because she had I mean a lot of crazy things about it, but she hit a grating on the way down, and there were three or four adults in the apartment when we conducted the canvas.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: They said they were all sitting there watching like wrestling, WWE wrestling.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they hey, what you know, did you hear any scenes?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we heard something hit the grating.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: Did you look out the window?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: We were watching TV.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a girl was thrown from the roof, hit your grating.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: We mind our own business, we don't get involved, whatever happens out there, it's you know, involves other people, doesn't involve us.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um it turns out that that case there's a little bit of a twist in it because the two wrong guys were arrested initially.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: Two guys were arrested.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: And very unusual for the Bronx DA's office to issue my first case I think I caught in the Bronx.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a little, let me stand back and let's let the lead detective or detectives kind of let me just kind of shadow them, make a few suggestions, let me help out, let me do whatever I can do.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a Manhattan guy.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I did all my time for the most part up till I got into the homicide squad in uh 19 May of 97.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had 10 years on the job.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ten years.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of let whatever, just watching.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh checked a couple days, hey, what's going on?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do you need?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to do?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: Blah blah blah.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: With a couple of the detectives, and turns out maybe a month afterwards, two guys were arrested, and then little by little I was looking into the case and starting to like come to the realization that I don't know if these are the two guys that did it.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I took one guy out, got a order from The judge did DNA um talked to a few other people on the street and what I was hearing and what I found out didn't add up.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I got the two guys out of jail.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that means the two bad guys are still out there.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the two ended up shooting a drug dealer in the 4-8, so he was doing six years.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other suspect was relocated to like our he was all over the country.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: The guy literally worked and lived on the back of a um a U-Haul truck.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: He would get jobs from different mover vendors around the city, and he would go to uh Florida, he'd go up to Maine, he'd go out to California, stop off in Arizona.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was all over the country at the back on the back of a U-Haul truck for the most part.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I put him in this system as a missing person because I didn't have an arrest warrant.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured, you know what, he's missing from my investigation.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, in order to kind of put him in that hydro system without a warrant, I said, you know what?
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making up this fucking, I'm making it up and I'm gonna run with it because I don't care.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I put him in as a missing person and he popped.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was always a week or a couple weeks or a month behind him.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: He would get stopped somewhere, get a summon, get stopped somewhere else, get a summon.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: But those two guys, I thought, for what they did and the way they did it, would possibly fake the criteria of, especially the guy roaming the country.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was just so hard to track down, never really had any serious offenses.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: He would always fly under the radar.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as he got hit, I literally testified in the grand jury on another unrelated homicide.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: A little five-year-old kid was killed.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: We locked up the two guys in Manhattan.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: I shot up town, I shot back to the Bronx.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sergeant says, Hey, you got a notification here from Arizona that your guy got picked up.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, holy shit.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: I said, John, give me that, whatever.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: I called the detective, the uh sergeant up in I think Puma County, Arizona.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: I talked to Lieutenant O'Toole.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: I shot down to get money from one police plaza after I testified.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: Me and Malcolm got on an airplane like eight, nine o'clock that night, shot out to Arizona, in the jail the next day, took a six-page statement from the guy, brought him back to New York with us as a witness, and put him up in a hotel for a couple days, and then we charged him with the murder.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a whirlwind of uh uh travel and police investigation.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a couple of issues with the DA.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love the DA that I was working with at the time.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: Nancy Borco was up there at one point, and she was like sitting with the uh and working with the other DA that we we had on the case, but um the two guys that didn't do it got out of jail.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they were angels, but they didn't do this.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't do it.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Period.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that means the other two were still out there.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: So there were some issues with the Bronx DA's office, you know, some reservations about going forward, but I wasn't letting them off the hook on this.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that case folder sat on my desk from the day it happened to the day they finally took a plea and they went to jail.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that happened with most of my cases.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't put it away until it was like solved.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: There was some sort of closure, you know?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Terry, I promised you an hour, and again, there's so much more with your career with the terrorist task force and everything.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to have you on again down the road, because I I just feel it's not fair to keep someone for over an hour.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, I get it.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great run, uh even up to the homicide squad.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, all right, so just just closing out, what what are you most proud of of your 36 years on the job?
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think being having accomplished some of the things in each facet of the job, starting as a cop with not knowing really anybody on the job, meeting the people and developing the relationships, and really ending up in the JTTF locking up bin Laden's son-in-law, you know, uh for the for the involvement with 9-11, you know, uh, and then that whole transition, you know, locking up murderers, robbery pattern guys, and then going into under the Fed side and working with the Intel community, arresting, you know, people for crimes against the country, you know, for 9-11 related crimes.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, I can't thank you enough for taking this hour, and thank you for spending your time with us today.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Best of luck to you and your audience and be safe.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: As always, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning in, especially my listeners in Broadview Heights, Ohio, Lake Oswego, Oregon, Cave Creek, Arizona, and Defiance, Ohio.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you worked in law enforcement and had an interesting criminal background, please drop me a note on Twitter, Instagram at Vic4I50.
• 1:11:25
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• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy the content, check out my Amazon author page, type in my name, Vic for I like the car, where you can preview all my NYPD books for free.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again, everyone, and I'll see you next week.