Latest / Reframe / 18 : Christian fletcher , A lifetime of Photography.

Transcript

18 : Christian fletcher , A lifetime of Photography. · Reframe

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_05: Have you ever wondered what truly fuels a creative mind?
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_05: What ignites their passions and drives their creativity?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_05: Today, I'm Dave McGuire and the striumphana photographer.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_05: From the moment I step into the world of photography, I have been captivated by the community and the stories behind the lens.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_05: Join me as we dove into humble beginnings, explore artistic visions, and discover how we as a collective reframe our minds through the power of creativity.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_05: Before we dive into this episode, I'd like to give a quick shout out to the incredible team at EC Footies Australia.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you and welcome to reframe.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: In this episode, we speak about Christian's career spanning 34 years, running a gallery, his creative pursuits, and what the future holds.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: We're speaking to Mr.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_05: Christian Fletcher today.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, mate.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to see you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me on, fellas.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's all right.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Should I tell them the backstory about me forgetting to to um to front up for for the first two uh appointments that we had?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's pretty pretty poor form.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I do owe you guys beers.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and like I can't remember what the we decided was I was going to uh get whether it was an export or something that was a bit more boutiquey.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Swan Laugh Lager, Swan Lager Gun the Native WA.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that was my dad's favorite beer actually.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, was it lagger?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's not too bad.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_05: It's like it's like the WA version of VB.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I tell you, I was laughing my ass off the other day when you said I had a boomer moment.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my god.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, I'm like, man, how much stuff have I forgotten on shoots before?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was lucky.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: That conversation that we were sort of having the other day made me think, I'm like, I better charge my batteries last night before I go out tomorrow morning for a shoot.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Lucky because they were all dead.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I was really lucky.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: Same, same with me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_05: We we started going on a tangent and we were talking off um before we started recording as we were setting up that we need to have a little conversation about things that were forgotten for shoots.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good little topic.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean the the one I haven't forgotten, which is my wife, but then she doesn't want to come most of the time anyway.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't I actually know I do, I tell a lie, I did together once.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was actually on a on a cruise and we were in Papua New Guinea, and there was a a an a like a mate who was with me.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: He said, Oh Fletch, we can get a tender boat, let's get across to that island, and we'll go.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I said, Yeah, cool, it's gonna get we've gotta go quick.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, okay, no worries, and off we went.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then about an hour later, uh, my wife turns up uh on this island and says, Where did you go?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Why did you leave me?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have left my wife behind.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have forgotten her, I've gotten batteries and cards, and uh, I don't think I've got camera, definitely a tripod, yeah, tripod.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um that made us on that trip.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was a the fateful day when I was I just started using my phase one camera.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: I just got a uh it was the IQ was the 180 or the P65, I can't remember anyway, but um I went onto that beach, I was walking along, I had the camera on a tripod hanging under it, as you do as we walk around.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I slipped on a rock, wet rock.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was basically it was the only rock on the beach, and I just walked on it and slipped, fell over.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: The phase one hit the ground, it dislodged the the the um the mirror in the stupid body, the old DF body, whatever it was that was yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so I couldn't use the camera.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when it hit the ground, the wet sand, a wave came and washed over it.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: A little, a little wave, tiny little wave, at perfect timing, hit the ground and a wave washed over it, came up looking like a Lamington.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you can imagine, you know, here's my beautiful phase one camera covered in salt water and and sand.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that would have been a good story and an expensive fix.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, so my wife wasn't really pissed off with me, but then then I I tried to push pull the old honey, I've just destroyed the phase one, you know, card, and I think she's even more annoying after that because it costs a bomb, you know.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's why we have insurance.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh was I insured, I think it was I'm pretty sure it was insured, but then um I I had to get it get it fixed.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_05: So it was two grand to get it fixed, so two grand versus about oh, was that about 150 for a full setup?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_05: Well, well, it was only 50 for that one.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_05: This is going back into when I looked at the boomer.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the one that had like the Mamiya type shape body?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's yeah, yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which were terrible.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And anyway, so I'm not a phase my ambassador anymore, so I can say whatever I want, but I had this, so this body, um, the body that all the um rubber grip came off it, started peeling off.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I um I got this gaffer tape, yellow gaffer tape, and just gaffer taped it all back on.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um phase weren't too impressed with that, and they kept saying to me, the rep saying to me, oh, you know, look, you know, you need to buy a new body, you need to buy a new body, and then we we'll upgrade you to a new body.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go no no no, I'm happy with this one, it's fine.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: I go, oh anyway, they went on a nine and I just kept posting photos of my phase one camera with the yellow gaffer tape all over it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually they they upgraded me for you here's a here's a body, give just give me that other one back.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they wanted you to pay to upgrade, they wanted you to pay to upgrade originally, and then you finally got one out of free because of the people like a free upgrade.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I I bought all my gear, um, you know, I I didn't get a good deal.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I was getting a good deal, but as it turned out, um everyone could get the same deal I got.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh so that's okay, which is fine, you know.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I hate being feeling like I owe somebody something.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but yeah, so but with this body, I thought, no, no, no, I'm not uh I'm not gonna upgrade it.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you don't like the way it looks on social media, you better get me a new one.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'm supposed to be one of your ambassadors.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know what?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: If it wasn't for social media, you wouldn't have gotten a new camera.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the moral of the story.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's something you want, just you know complaining.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_05: Something to embarrass somebody with.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: That's terrible, isn't it?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we like embarrass everyone all the time, so I'm not getting anything for it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: You should get stuff thrown at you.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it should be.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to get some yellow tape and just chuck it on my camera just to see what happens.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about yellow, I've got green.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually the yellow tape looked really cool.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: It actually made things look really nice, you know.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: A bit of color.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I remember um um uh there was um uh I had a little Fuji when the Fuji um uh X100s first came out, little little combat thing, Retro camera.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I thought uh sorry, I thought Tim Page I've got something in my throat now.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: This cheap coffee anyway.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I thought this guy Tim Page, he's dead now, he's a you know famous war photographer guy.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and he had this X100.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: We got chatting and it had a little metal lens hood on it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so um to make it look really retro and like it did back in the old day, like the an old camera, he got some black matte matte black spray paint and just spray painted that the the outside of it, uh of the lens hood, yeah, and he put that on.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course it had all been scratched up and and because it's just sprayed on top, it's scratched off really easy.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it looked really authentic and cool.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought, wow, that was great.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: That was really, really neat.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, wow, um, because I had these little signal cameras like the old DPs and all that sort of stuff.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, oh, I'm I'm I'm gonna paint one of those, you know, matte green, you know, I'm just gonna spray paint it, shh, you know, and just then see how it goes.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I never ended doing that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's kind of it'd be nice to kind of customize your camera, because we all customize cars and stuff.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I like to.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I'm a I'm a real bogan.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I I love um I love you know cars and and I'd love to you know have a car that looks a little bit different and stuff.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I don't have a car at the moment on a pushbike, which is good, better for the environment, of course.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it might help.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but yeah, we should customize our cameras a bit more.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, put some spinners on the on the lens cap and some um dice tassels hanging down off the top of it, why not?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we even just customize the tripod.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: We all look we all look the same.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it was funny, I was in um I was leading a tour in Iceland one time in in um winter, and there was a bunch of us, and I would be driving past these photography tours, and straight away I knew that they were photography tours because everyone looked the same.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: We all we all got around like turtles, but um you know, in Iceland, it was I was actually Norway, and we all have our puffer jackets, black pants, black top, uh black puppa jacket, yeah, camera bag, tripod in the hand, and a hat, and and we're all walking around, you know, like rushing around, looking for the shopping, and we're like, and we're just everywhere, and it was just like, oh man, we're all identical.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: We just have this, we it's a it's uh um what do you call it?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's like every hobby, every sport has a look.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a joke for definitely has a look.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you reckon although you guys look a little bit.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like an it's like a ninja turtle look.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've got you've got the um Ned Kelly going on there.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: You've locked that pretty good, mate.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_05: I'm bringing it back, you know.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_05: I'm bringing it back.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it it took him a month to grow.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: That'd take me 10 years to grow that thing.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, not quite a month, not quite a month.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: It does grow quick though, because it does.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I notice, I always notice with the beard, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: That it's starting to get to like a decent length, particularly when like men in public I don't know ask if I was lining up first.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like they go like they automatically get this like, oh, he's got a big beard, better check if he was here first.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'm the least scary looking person.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, because they think you're a senior bloke, because it takes so long to grow the thing.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's too much gray in there now.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, I better let the senior go first.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: I tried to grow a beard like that, but I I I just look like Father Christmas, so you know, it was like I don't know.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because I yeah, I left it too too long.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the hair's too grey now.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You should do it anyway.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: The white beard goes hard.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or the tickler.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Get the tickler out.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the tickler.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I used to have that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: I had the uh little um flavor saver or what they used to call it back in the day.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: The flavor saver.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I remember those.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: My uncle used to have one, eh?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd be like, his missus would hate it.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, You gotta shave that off.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, every time you mention that, it's another month.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: He had that thing for like five years.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_05: Speaking, speaking of back in the day, um, we'd love to know a little bit of your backstory before you started photography and and what led you to pick up a camera.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, backstory.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Grew up in a state housing area in Perth and with um, you know, working class parents.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Mum worked at Coles and dad was in the public service doing Claire Record work.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, went to a really rough school, hated it with a passion, survived every day without getting beaten up.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: The only person that actually that really gave me a lot of trouble at school was this one particular girl.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, I just get dragged around by the hair, you know.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so I had all these um these experiences as a young young fella, um, growing up in a pretty rough neighborhood, and um that's why the I I like doing up cars because I'm a I'm a bogan at heart, you know, grew up um around all the old Tiranas, the you know, SLR 2000s and all the X U1s, all these all these cool cars that you know, they were just you know you know, you could never you'd never see uh uh XU1 without a decent set of mags on it, you know, the biggest pattern tires.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: But of course when I was old enough to get my car, I couldn't afford one of those.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to get the stupid things like a little glamps, you know.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the wagon.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I was a bit more of a surfer bogan than a just a full-on bogan.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I didn't have the ripple soles desert boots.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I had to get the cheap Kmart versions, they nothing it was they were black, but they weren't ripple soles, you know, so I couldn't I had no tread.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the guy I I got out of high school, didn't go to university.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I basically followed my dad into the public service, so it was straight up.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um pretty much left school and went straight into full-time work and got stuck in a job and my first job was to file bits of paper into a filing cabinet um in alphabetical order, but like strict alphabetical order.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it was A, B, C, but then it was A A B C.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yep.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: A A B C.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was like, oh man.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: What a non-way, four piles of this stuff.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I when I finished three months later, I still had three piles left.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, started with four, end up with three.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I did that for three months in a room with no windows and fluorescent lighting.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that was like, oh man, this is this is soul destroying.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that uh luckily I got shifted out of that that section into uh uh the adoption section, which was uh because I was in community services.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I would be um filing paperwork papers up in you know another another building, you know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we dealt with all the adoptions in in the state.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So at that same time, um well actually when I was 15 my my brother and myself and my dad, we bought a little uh RoleFlex camera, an SL35, just uh um and we paid 50 bucks each for it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it was sort of sort of dad's idea, and we all agreed and we all put in fifty bucks each.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um but I was the one that I was the only one that ever used it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: So um when when I was at work, I had a um I've been there for a little while and had four weeks off.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I was surfing.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was up in Perth and I was surfing um at Leighton Beach.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone that knows Perth waves and beaches, they'll they'll they'll know Leighton's a pussy, pussy spot for it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was, you know, this one particular day I got sucked over the falls.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um it, you know, I'd like to say it was a you know six footy barreling monster, but it was actually just, I don't know, probably with a waist height, uh blows out, and and I went over the falls with the board.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: The board went down first and then I went down on top of it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the board was down.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, the fin took a big chunk out of my had my leg.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd been on the holidays for a week, got this big fin chop, boys took me to the hospital to get stitched up, you know, fainted in the car on the way there from you know, losing you know, a a couple of mills of blood, you know.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Ugh, you know, everything went white.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: They took me into an emergency and um they stitched me up hurt like freaking hell.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I was like screaming like a banshee.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um I um I couldn't I couldn't surf again.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that was it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: The the thing got infected, yeah.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: As it does when you go to hospital, you always seem to pick up something weird and um it it it wouldn't it wouldn't heal.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: So all the stitches kind of came apart and it just became a big mush pit.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I couldn't go into the water.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I probably should have gone in the water, but I couldn't surf, obviously.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I bought out my brain and said, What am I gonna do?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I've got three weeks left on holidays, I just want to surf.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, oh I'll pick up the camera.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I will get some film.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I got some old, um, I got some Kodak Ectochrome or something.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was one of the it was a slide film, tell me which one.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I started taking photos and got the got the uh the transparencies back and I thought this is fun, and I really started to enjoy it, and I forgot about surfing and I thought, oh this is kind of neat.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then my sister said to me, She's got she goes, Oh, you take good photos, Chris.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: I went, Oh, do I?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and that was just photos of the cat and the car keys and and all that sort of stuff.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Just just rubbish shot that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's the car keys.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then um so I um I basically took the camera and just kept using it and and and I became the unofficial photographer at well, the official photographer at work.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone had a birthday, they'd tell me to bring the camera in, I'll get some photos.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and um, yeah, I just started to um you know think that that was a pretty cool thing to do.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was quite a few years after that, before I I ended up uh leaving the government and and I got a uh my girlfriend at the time, her uncle was selling his video library for next to nothing.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I said to my sister, let's let's buy this video library and and and let's go, you know, it's just hire movies out.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be great fun.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be slack and easy.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so then we did.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: I had a video library for a long time uh with my sister, and I would do nights, night shifting, she'd do the day.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I was surfing in the morning, sailboarding in the afternoon, and I I had the best life for years.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I mean, I think every second week I was doing 12 and a half hours a week of work, and that and on my busy week I was doing maybe 202 hours of work.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: The rest of the time I was in the ocean, you know, I was sailing, uh sail sailboarding mostly.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, I loved it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Life was was great.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Living the life.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: But then uh it got to the point when we got out of those and and mum and dad moved down south, and so I went down there for a holiday and said, Oh, this is pretty good.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: My brother moved down there, Michael and his wife, and um, so I thought, oh, I might just you know, raffle Perth and and head down to south.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I got came in south, went down south, and then um um thought, what what am I gonna do for a what am I gonna do for a living?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: I got I don't have a trade, I don't have a university education.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm just a useless you know pen pusher.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I um I picked I I thought I'll get into photography.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'll become a I I'll become a landscape photographer and I'll sell black and white photographs in the in a in a gallery.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: So um that was my main, that was my a aim, was to come down, go down south and do that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea how that was going to work, but I got a camera, I bought a Nikon 801S with two lenses, which cost me 1500 bucks and it was all I could afford.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I thought this is this is a lot of money.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Then I bought all the darkroom equipment, so I set up a black and white dark room at mum and dad's house and started learning photography.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's pretty much the the starting point where um within six months I realized that 35 mil camera wasn't going to be good enough um and I needed to go medium format.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I bought a bronca um and you know really started getting into the darkroom stuff and learning as much as I could.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: But back to those days, it was this is like we're talking about no internet, no email, no YouTube, no Photoshop.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there probably was Photoshop, but I didn't uh I probably wasn't then.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there was no digital at all, there was no way of you know having much control of oh the the the black and white diagram was great because I was doing dodging and burning back then and I was learning how to do that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it was all very basic, but I was getting some nice black and white prints.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I had um I had some photos that I framed up and put in my brother's restaurant.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: He had he bought a restaurant down there, a Tex Mess Mex restaurant, and that was back in the dance, but it was really tiny, and I only had two, there's only two restaurants in town.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um so I put them in and on the first night I sold a picture, I sold one.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: But it was uh it was for 80 bucks.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was a fully framed black hand printed black and white photo um for 80 bucks, and I just thought this is great.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then I didn't sell another one for three months, and and I realized that I'm I'm stuffed, I'm not gonna make any money, and this is yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Then someone said, Oh, can you do my wedding?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I went, Oh, I guess so.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I started doing weddings and portraits and blah, blah, blah, and and I don't went.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then I just basically people go, Well, how did you how did you get so successful?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, it's 34 years now, I didn't go broke for the whole time.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I almost did, probably for the first 10 years, I was going broke every every year.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I went, I had to, I wanted to buy a house, so I had went to go borrow thirty thousand dollars from Westpac, and I'd rock stump up with my figures, and that and the guys are like, dude, we can't give you 30 grand.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you got you know, you're not making any money.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: How are you gonna pay it back?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, uh I begged and borrowed and um managed to sort of convince him to um to give me the money, and then got my house, and then uh then eventually I sold that and put everything into a book, which was becoming my first book.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a it was a real gamble to all the money I'd accrued uh went into that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when I got the book back, I hated it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um didn't want us anyone to see it because it was completely dodgy.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: But uh eight months later I had all my m I got all my money back, you know, sold enough books to get my money back, and then they all sold and rubber.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so um that's kind of the the the quick and easy story.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to be a photographer, I wanted to just do black and white landscapes, uh but then after you know, I don't Realised that I had to do commercial work to make money and make it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was doing picture framing, plus I was working uh washing dishes in my brother's restaurant as well.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So so I was just doing whatever I could, but I was young, I had no family, no, no commitments, no debts really.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um living at home with mum and dad, and they were kind of subsidizing my uh eating habits, and then I would be eating on people's plates in the restaurant as I was doing dishes.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'd I'd see this plate come through and there'd be a couple of prawns on there, like no, I didn't even touch those prawns.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, why not?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I couldn't fit into that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: But this is you know, this is my you know the the glamorous life of a landscape photographer, yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um just eating chicken prawns off someone's plate.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_05: That's a rock.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: It is amazing what people leave on their plates, though.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, just um so much good stuff.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a Tex Mex restaurant, yeah, lots of Mexicans, lots of cheese, and uh anyway.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I did uh I did uh I did get uh promoted to um uh uh on uh entrees and desserts as well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, but they were pretty basic, you know, like get this ice cream, put it in there, put this topping on top, just throw a few nuts on it, send it out.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_05: So it'll be pretty pretty bad.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_05: So how how many books have you done now?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_05: Are you uh from your first one?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_05: You've done you've done a few, haven't you?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: Six, I think.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, six.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Six.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the books are great.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean they're not if you've got somewhere to sell them, I mean it's great for us because we have the galleries, so we've got somewhere to sell them where we don't have to all the money that comes back is ours.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's where we sell most of them.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: But we do sell lots in bookshops and all that stuff, but you have to sell them for a wholesale so you don't get quite the same amount of money.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I always say that they're a it's a a business card that people pay for.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And people will buy from a book, they'll they'll and and and you get a name.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: You you know, you're into the all the bookshops.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Ken Duncan's got a huge um, you know, he his business was built a lot on on the publishing side of it.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, everyone knows Ken Duncan.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's seen a Ken Duncan book, and there's I'm not sure if there are any out there at the moment, but there probably are, I'm sure.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um so books, yeah, their books are good to do.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um my first one was was a challenge because it was done uh from uh negatives.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: All the shots I'd done were all on old wedding film that I'd left lying around.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, you know, we're not talking digital, we're not talking transparency, it was like color neg film, um 400 uh ASA neg film, some of it.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so they had to be drum scanned and then um somehow digitized and put into this printing process.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I did it with this old guy, he was a lovely old guy, but he had no idea what he was doing.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea what they were doing.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we're looking at this stuff on his computer, there was no colour management, nothing.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was up as you up for printed and and it nothing looked right.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was young and I was too embarrassed to ask him to do it again or to change it, and I didn't know what I was looking at.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't know what he was looking at, and it came out colours were all over the place.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: As you imagine, it was all so basic.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: That was back in 1998, I think it was when that came out.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine CMYK errors that would have come through with that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, heaps of green, probably.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, it was like it just yeah, as soon as you get put them in the CMYK, there goes your there goes the game, you know, unless you can do your conversions properly.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: But look, books um, you know, the we we got successful eventually because uh we gave people a book that they wanted, which was our first my first successful one was one called Landscapes, which was um basically just West Western Australian landscapes photos, and mostly panoramic in that in those days.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it was soft cover, it was cheap, cheap enough.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we sold, I don't know how many were sold of that, but over the years we did quite a few runs.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: If we didn't sell 20,000 of that, I would I'd be surprised, I reckon, you know, um over the over the years, but that's over ten years or something.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um and um yeah, so I think going on from then, um I that was when um uh the crowdfunding started coming out.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you can go to all those different sites and crowdfund any project that you wanted to do.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, well, that's pretty interesting, that's a pretty cool idea.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, of course you lose 35% of whatever whatever it was for sales.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I sort of looked at it and thought, oh, I'm gonna do a crowdfunded book.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: How much is it gonna cost me to get my web people to do our own interface to be able to collect the money and hold it, hold people's credit card details, but not push the button until um we've got enough people to pay for the book.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I did that with my first book I crowdfunded, and it was really successful.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was doing all sorts of offers, you know, buy a few books, get them this price, buy a box of 10 and get them this price, you know.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I had all these different packages like the camera club package, where you could buy a whole heap and then just distribute them to all the people in the club and they all get a good price, and then special print deals and and and corporate deals.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you if you buy, if you do the$3,000 corporate package, you get uh I don't know, 100 books, plus you get a customized front page insert in there, which you can and you know put your own message on and and all that stuff.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we we raised I mean we paid for the book you know way before we had to push the button.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when yeah, of course when we did, yeah, and by doing that we meant we could buy more and um yeah, so that that's and that was all done through our website.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was really, really good.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's very clever, yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's all gone by the wayside now, that that website and that that idea.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So but we can still cloud you can still crowdfund things, you can still yeah um you just put it out there to people and you make all those packages and you just you know um just go for it and um work work away with it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's the yeah, it's the best way to sell something is to get the money before it before you have to pay for it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Pre-sold, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Free sale.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the way to go.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's not, you know, it's not new, new, new ideas anymore, but back in back when we first started, it was really like new, you know, that was just starting to happen.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um definitely a great way to get a book out there.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: And at least you know numbers and you don't have to go and buy X amount and have stock sitting around doing nothing.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: We've got um we've got three shipping containers at home, uh, one which was a doomsday bunker, and two others, which are all our books and bags and you know, coasters, whatever, all the other crap that, you know, and all the stuff that you end up accumulating over the years of having a having a gallery and stuff.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Three container loads, man, that's crazy.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll think of like I'm losing half my house and my half my garage at the moment.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Full of stuff.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, how much more room do I need to like keep accumulating more photography?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_05: There's a there's a park down the road you can throw a couple of containers in.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my tip, I I'm lucky now, and people also say, well, you know, how did you how did you know how where did your success come from?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it actually came from um having people to help you.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had partners, you know, my brother and his wife, and then I had really good staff.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Got two girls that have been with us for over 20 years each, that have been working in the gallery.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then my biggest, biggest asset is my wife, who is just an awesome um, she's she thinks outside of the box so much.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: She's always thinking about how to do things more efficiently better.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, it's just crazy the way she thinks.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we used to store all our books.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: We would hire a space in the industrial area where we had all our um our uh books and all the other crap.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it was costing us uh, I think ten or eleven thousand dollars a year just to store this stuff, you know.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, I'm gonna look into sea containers and find out how much uh gets online, finds a place that's the guy just is around the corner from us.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: He sells sea containers.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: So um we got two sea containers delivered for 10 grand.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: So a year's rent that we had and everything we got shelves made up, and then everything came out of that place, got rid of that rent, and now and we've had them for I don't know, eight, eight or more years.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, she saved us 80 grand in rent just by by making an$8,000 purchase for two seats.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's definitely um having having that partner beside you to really um push your ideas is fantastic.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_05: I'm actually curious as to how much your wife actually helps with the product is in the photography.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_05: Like, do you float things by her to say, what do you think of this image?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you think this will work and etc.?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like, is it does she really have a hand in that?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and she's my she's the one that she definitely I I show her stuff and she'll say, No, you're not there yet, or no, I hate it.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or if she loved it, she she will tell me.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: So she's completely honest, uh, as opposed to your friends or people on Instagram that'll like anything, you know, just because they don't want to be, they want you to feel good, you know.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: But she doesn't care how I feel.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Brutal brutal honesty.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Do not do this one, don't print it, don't it's not going on the website.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's yeah, it's terrible.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: What were you thinking?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, but she's not that bad.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, she's she's kind, but yeah, no, it's not not you need that brutal honesty, you need the brutal honesty, I think, especially when it comes to selling your work.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: You need that person.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just go, nah, man, get rid of that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, because you know you're close to it, you know you know how much effort went into to making it.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: But if it's if it's a piece of shit, it's still a piece of shit.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't matter how much effort you put into doing it.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and we get we'll get close to these photos, you know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: We have and um class, you know, uh a thing is but we we'll take a photograph and we'll we'll it'll re remind us of an awesome time that we had.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we'd think that was a good photo because you had such a good time while you were there.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: But if you really step back, if um, you know, there were some images in the gallery yesterday, because I was working yesterday with with Jen, and she pulled out a whole bunch of stuff that was been sitting in there.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and the ones that I really liked, you know.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, no, these are all going, these are all gonna get um taken out out of stock because they're they're just you know they haven't solved, they've been there for a year and they have nothing, no one's even looked at them, you know.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they're gone.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I go, oh no, no, no, oh yeah, that's a I love that shot.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no, that one, no, you can't take and and put it back on the shelter.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, no, you're right.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: If no one's bought them, no one's cared, that there's no point.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, you've just got to be a bit more ruthless and brutal, and and and you've actually got to accept that you know there are photos that you've taken that aren't really that good.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um as much as it hurts sometimes to hear it, um if if you're in a business and you're trying to make money, you you just really you can't have stuff on the walls or on your website that's clogging up the place and making it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've got so many images I I can't stand that are on the website, you know.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: We got thousands, probably a thousand, almost a thousand images on there.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there probably two hundred I like.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: The rest I'm like, eh, yeah, ooh, you know, things that have taken 20 years ago.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: How often how often would you sort of recalibrate and look at your portfolio and think, you know, this is going, this is not going, and how do you go about deciding that?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, we we we usually do it probably every year we'll have a look and have a bit of a cull.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we call it a cull, and um we will just go through and generally because we have most things that we do are done in a matted form.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: If they're not a limited edition or a or a one of one, they'll end up uh as a in a matted form, so smaller prints.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh, you know, but they accumulate, and then you you can judge quite well then um what's what people like and what they don't like by by seeing what vegetables sells and what doesn't.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you have you like everything, there's you know, you have a half a dozen photos that sell all the time that people love, and they go, oh man, and and you just gotta have a spare one ready to go at all times, you know.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: There was one photo I took up in Bright, uh Nashley Bow Bogong on the way up to one of the amounts, I don't know which one it is, you guys know more than me, but um it was of these autumn uh trees, and I just got in Photoshop, I just made all the leaves red.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Everything else is black and white, these red leaves.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the cheesiest Photoshop job you could ever imagine.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it was a nice composition, and and the edit was okay.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was kind of interesting.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, it became the biggest sterling print I've ever had to a point where we got too embarrassed to have it on the wall, and we were just it's still there, people can buy it, but we we haven't made a print to have on the wall for so long because we just sold it and sold it and sold it.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And big, big panoramics.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was a big panel.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, they're always over two meters, you know, uh plus.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I mean that that image alone probably made my business probably paid for everything.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you just gotta get that one image that people just looked at.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wow, those trees, those leaves are they're all so red.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's so cool.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love red leaves on trees.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And no one they weren't looking at the fact that everything else was black and white, and just looking, oh you know, I love, you know, I love the way you just kept the colour of those.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, dude, I mean these are orange and yellow, and there's some green ones, but I just got the old hue saturation started and all the hues, the red, everything, and every every channel went.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, it was kind of and I it's a bit embarrassing, but and I feel uh, you know, uh like a bit of a fraud sometimes.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I'll I I won't I don't like to tell people, you know, what what I've done sometimes, especially if it's somebody who wants to buy it, they love it.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: You can't turn it and say, Yeah, yeah, I'd I I just mess with all the hues to make the leaves all red.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if they think that the tree had just all red leaves, I'm just going with it, you know.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's all right.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I used to I used to try and shoot autumn trees like really almost before they turn.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, a green is really easy.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: It comes up in yellow in Photoshop.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you just go and then everything's yellow, and the whole all the canopy is like covered.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's no big holes in it, you know, like once it starts falling, then there's these big holes in the canopy.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I mean there's so many things.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um there was I've got another story I have to tell you off off air because it's uh I don't really want it to be public knowledge, but I'll tell you it's quite a funny one out of one of my photos anyway.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um but look, I I I don't mind telling people I edit edit my work, you know.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, I change colours, I I I put skies in all the time because that's a commercial business.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I love and up, but I love what you can do when you do edit like that.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I know it's nice to be authentic and you know, hey man, you you you did all the hard work to get this shot and you were there at the right time.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and that happens sometimes, but not all the time.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm away on a trip somewhere, um if I go to New Zealand and I just get blue skies every day for the time the whole time I'm there, I'm gonna I'm gonna need some doctrine skies in because I want to come back and sell photos of New Zealand looking dramatic and interesting and grand.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I spent all that money getting there and uh, you know, but if I wasn't trying to sell them, then I would just wouldn't probably worry so much.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well that's a sort of taking the artistic approach, right?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And having a sort of artist's license to sort of go.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's part of the artistry for sure.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I always think that you need to create a photo that other people can't or or won't.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they you know they they know they if they come in and they look at your work and go, oh, I could do that, then you know that you're either doing something wrong or you need to go that little bit extra.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: If they if they look at something and go, oh, I don't even know how they did that.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I look at I do that, I I look at people's work and go, Oh, I wonder how they got that.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: How did they how did they get that to look like you know, and it stunts me and it intrigues me.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I like that, you know, I like see people doing different things with toping.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: What when you mention how did they do that, the first thing I think of is your banal work.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think I think that's a massive secret that no one understands how you even do it.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_05: If you signed up to his online learning, you would have worked out how to do it because he chose you.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, free now on my YouTube channel.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Old content, old content, right now.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, put my kids through high school.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's all right.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so no, I yeah, so I had my training site, and now that's I I thought I'm not up putting enough new videos in.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: I felt bad, so I so I just I've copied all the uh videos onto my YouTube channel now.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: So they're all there for free.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: So anyone can use so there's one, there's ones in there and how I do it, and it's pretty much it's very simple.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about just pulling the contrast out of of the shots.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, you shoot mid-morning, what at mid-afternoon, which is fantastic.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: You get to sleep in, you know.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's my favorite car, just driving around, wind the window down, yes, a good shot, and take a shot, and then you know, and you know, forget all this um, you know, uh working hard to get your tripod out, all that sort of crap, you know, waiting for the light and just focus stacking, blah blah blah, all that just get in the car, grab a you know, a good lens at 24 to 90 or whatever you've got, uh, you know, 24 to 70, and just drive around and look and see what's there, and then it doesn't matter how good or bad the light is, you just fix it in post.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: So all that stuff, all that banal stuff is just about um, you know, I'm I'm basically putting uh uh a LUT on it, you know, like a um uh probably a chill and orange is always being one of my favorite LUTs.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then I just blend that um with a screen blend mode in Photoshop.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that just lightens everything up to the max, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just drop the opacity back of that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: But when you do a screen blend mode on a on a coloured LUT, it tends to take away the effect of the colour as well.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll duplicate it, um, and then I'll have two layers, and then you start messing with that the bottom layer, which will be the the when the color comes in and out.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you do it twice, obviously it does enhance the color quite a bit.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you just start dropping your passives around.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next trick after that is to then go into your channels and and do a luminosity mask to select just the the darkest darks.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you know you want all the shadows to be really light, but then it tends tends to your blacks tend to get a little bit washed out.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you just go select the darkest darks and then darken them, um so like all the cracks and you know, indoors and and you know, just around um just brings a little bit of contrast back, and that's it.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Peace cake.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then mess with the colour.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it actually is very it is once you see the videos, it is very easy.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_05: Because I like I said, I I saw you talk uh at Aperture the first year.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_05: I think it was the first year.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I w I was there at the first year, and and then you you spoke about those classes, and I was as soon as I went home after that event, I'd I I bought it.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_05: And and then without um pumping your tires or anything like that, you're like the way I am with my work now, it was because you go, Yeah, it's all right, just edit and do what you want and create these works.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_05: And then a lot of your the what you said on that um on the on that stage resonated with me into I always had it in the back of my mind that you're not supposed to do this and you gotta keep it realistic and and all this, and then listening to you, it's just like I have to do anything, I can do what I want.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_05: So I've got you to thank for for where I am at the moment in my photography and those courses.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I love your work.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I think that the middleness look that you've got that that uh you know the long exposure stuff and all that, it's just you know, it's just beautiful, you know.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, it's it's really really stylish.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's another guy that we interviewed, a guy called Alan Coppy, if you're yep.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: We used to cataly.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's a good bloke.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's got some beautiful work.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I like all lots of different styles, and um, you know, I I I like the traditional, beautiful, traditional landscape work, and I love the the really arty way out stuff.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love the aerial stuff.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I go through phases and and have uh passion for different sorts, um, which is great because it's you know, you know, you you're doing this.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, 34 years I've been doing it now, and you know, I get a bit bored, you know, doing the you know, I go down to the beach and I go, oh man, how can I do this shot any different?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um a lot of the time I can't.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I just go, I've I've been going inland a lot and finding bush and and fog, and and that that really kind of interests me, like the Australian, this the real Australiana.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I need to get you out there, Carl, yeah, with a um with a swag and a and a you know and a little fire on the ground under an Australian tree because you'll look like a bush ranger, you know, like you know, make Cup and sort of paintings, you know.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a model now.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a model now.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ned Kelly look alike model.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll make you up a tin foil.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: You can put yourself in your photos and and create this real Australian painterly look, you know, like there's all the the Heidelberg Art School in that that was around.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I love that, you know, I love looking at I like looking at paintings and painters um because I love the way they represent light.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean if you look at Rembrandt and you look at they talk about Rembrandt lighting, but you look at his paintings and you know, there's these scenes that they all look like I mean spotlit, you know, studio that really interesting.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I I really feel like I want to get some studio lights out and just go photograph all these scenes with a big studio, you know, light and shit.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got some lights that I carry around, but I just don't do enough of it.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm too lazy.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta get out of the car to set up the lighting.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: I just need someone to to I need someone to boss around, you know.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: That's what you got Carwin for.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Carwin.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_05: He's useless.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_05: Unless he drops a light again.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, he dropped me friggin' light.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: When we were doing this Star Wars thing.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I had this Star Wars idea and and uh and the light was up really high.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was a little bit windy, I guess.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And he just he thought I'm gonna get some of my own shots.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then he said, let's go with my light.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then over this thing comes, you know, we I'd taken like two or three shots, and this light comes down.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank god it didn't break.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, so then he then after that, poor bugger just had to hold on to the light pole.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: But he wanted to be part of the fun, you know.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: But he's a good guy, Carmen.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_05: No, I I heard that on your podcast, and I I started laughing when I was in the car.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_05: That's a that's funny.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_05: And you know what?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_05: If he broke it, he has to hold it.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you break it, Carnegie.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's uh um, yeah, he's a good guy, Carmen.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: He's um he's good at his radio voice is unreal.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: When you hear him on the radio, he just sounds like uh you know one of these triple M joks, you know.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_05: He's got a great voice.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: I'd love to talk about the podcast.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_05: Like I know we've we're interviewing in here on on ours, but um, what was the the reason behind the podcast um in this to start with?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um well Carmen rang me um and I I I hadn't met him before, and he just rang and said, Look, um, I've got a he wanted to do uh uh just a recording for some radio station.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure it was something he worked for, or was actually for uh I think it was the university radio station.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um RTR FM, I think it was.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they just he said, Well, let's just do a little piece together about photography.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he goes, Oh, that was fun.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Yeah, that was pretty good.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he goes, Oh, we should just do it, you know, you know, every every couple of weeks should just get together and just chat about photography and record it.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: We can put it, do something with it, you know.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we started doing that, and I said, I'd probably be more interesting if we got other photographers on it.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, so we started doing that.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: We'd just get people, we'd collect um um um different photographers from all over the place and and got chatting away.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And we did that for I don't know, probably three years all up.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: And but it became quite onerous, and um, I I was kind of like, uh I've gotta do a podcast this week.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh shit, I got I've got this other stuff I've got to do.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually, and we weren't making any money out of it.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Not that we really tried to.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was good, it was fun.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: I got to meet lots of cool photographers, you know, and and some of them I you know I call my friends now, and yeah, and so that's nice, you know, you're connecting with these people.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I got to hear lots of good stories.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but uh yeah, it was just um just extra work I didn't need, you know.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_05: Was taking the piss out of Peter Eastway just happenstance, or was it was it um premeditated?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh always premeditated.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he Pete's thought, well, you know, if you you know you've probably met Pete, you know, and you know, he's a he's a joker, yeah.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: He's a joke about it.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so he asks for it, he gives it out, he he takes it and he gives it.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and him and I have a a a real um we we almost get to the point where if we don't stop by the end of the week of being together, we just you know we're ready to punch each other's lights out, you know.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds familiar.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like a bunch of brothers.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like yeah, yeah, the whole I really respect Pete.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: He was my first real photography hero, you know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh I don't think I was his first photography hero, so I think I but um but yeah, I you know, I I really love his work and it was it was always different.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: He his work always stood out from everyone else's, whether you liked it or hated it, it was always different.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and I thought he had a mastery of Photoshop at back way back then that not not many other people did.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um and I liked you know his his the colours that he uses and the light that he he worked.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some of his vignettes are pretty pretty ordinary.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know where you just sometimes I go, oh mate, that's just like such an obvious vignette.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Look at that dude.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember learning from Tony Hewitt about vignetting.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Tony do his vignettes all by hand, which you should, and and you just add the darkness where it needs to be.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, Pete's got just a straight oval, you know, and it's like, oh, okay.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's that was his aesthetic, that's right.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's his style.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was a reason for it, and he was sticking to it.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_05: So can't argue with that.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I like about the the calibre of um like yourself and and Peter and Tony Hewitt is that you're all got your own distinct style, and everyone's trying to play catch-up, and that's what I like about it.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_05: It's just it all stands out, and you can and you can see your work versus Peter's or Tony's or Ken Duncan's.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_05: You can they all stand out from each other, and that's what I think makes it the best, is that it's your art and every and and and you can see it from a mile away before even seeing your name.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that's the best part.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: I find I find Christian, yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: You've got more like maybe four or five styles that I see continuously.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's because you maybe you do get bored and you're like, oh, I want to do a bit of this now.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want to do a bit of that.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that I find that interesting.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, mum calls uh my wife calls me the um monthly man because I have an idea and I do it for a month and then I just discard it and move on to something else.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I am pretty yeah, I get bored easily.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um yeah, look that that's part of the thing for giving my um my techniques to someone else, like I do you know for free on YouTube.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh some people said to me, Why why do you do that?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Aren't you scared of you know people taking your ideas and you're using them against you?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I well, no, because I can give you all the the way I do things, but each image is different and it needs X amount of this, you know, it's all about opacities and and that mount that you put on, and then the order that you do things.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I can teach you all the different techniques that I do, but I get an image out and I'll start with this one, and then I'll do that one, and then it will go on top of that, and then I'll go, that doesn't look great.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And let's pull that back.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even recreate my own work.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if I try to go back and redo something that I had done before, I I don't get I can get close, but I can't get the same thing.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't get the same look.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: So so teaching people how to use Photoshop, it's like main it, it's still not gonna be me.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's not my, you know, it's not my w work.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, your eye will be different, um, and your editing could be similar, but it won't be the same.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it can there's too many variations in in what you can do.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_05: I do have a question, like just going back um to what you said earlier, that you do every year cull a couple of photos.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_05: How often do you go back to those photos and have a look at them to see if they can come up with a new style, new um like view of that image?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I I often think I want to, but I don't I don't I never do.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I look at I still got something to go that I sold that I edited 10 years ago or more.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I can fix that, I can do something with that.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, have you got to move on?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I get bored with the old stuff.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do new stuff.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: So part of what we've been doing um is to create one of ones.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like as a um, if I want to be taken a bit more seriously as a you know an art artist, um I I shouldn't I I should sell these one-offs because you know you sell them for more money, obviously.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you think about a poor old painter, you know, sits there with their oil painter and they're painting away for two weeks or more, struggling on this, you know, and they get to the end of it and they someone buys it for five or ten grand or whatever, and but they've just spent you know a month doing it, you know, you divide that that ten grand, you take 40% off for the for the um the gallery, and then you take off the price of the the materials, and then you take the time into account.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: These guys are paupous, man.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can get more money washing dishes at Muddy McDonald's than it can, you know, painting uh, you know, your life or wait, mind you, it's more fun painting.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: And look at and that's that's probably the majority of the artists.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um you get the the big names that sell for a lot more money.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: But as a photographer, we're so lucky.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, our our costs are very minimal um compared to what we can charge.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we can do that over and over and over again.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I I thought, well, we've still got that.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: We have our open edition, we've got limited edition, and we've got the one of ones.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the one on ones, I kind of limit those to ones that I I find are a bit more special and I'm a bit more connected to.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I like the beauty of doing that is that once they're gone, they're gone.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to go out and get another one.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it keeps you going out shooting.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love to do everything as one of one.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that'd be unreal if everything was a one-on-one, and I'd never have to see it again.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: And like do something brand new uh each time.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then the reality is I've had a couple of one-on-one's that are sold and I go, Oh, damn, I wish I had a few more of those.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I I like that one and it's gone and it's gone.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can put them into a book afterwards, you know.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's that's very true.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, do you recommend or would you recommend that any photographer that wants to make their way as a um in a profession and be professional and have it full time would do should oh sorry, I should say should uh really look at doing one-on-ones and limit editions for their website, or you think it's just a it's photographer specific?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think I think you should always try to limit things and make things exclusive.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um because it adds value and it adds credibility in some respects.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: You mean like scarcity, um, it's always, you know, it's like, hey, I'm just I'm into bike riding, right?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: So if I see some really rare bike or some guy who's got this bike line that's really expensive, I go, well, I I kind of revere that a bit more.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's that's important, you know, that's special.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's uh, you know, someone's that's handcrafted or it's rah rah rah, it's really, really something to to behold.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: And not everyone can afford a one-on-one, of course, because you you know you've got to charge enough money to make them worthwhile.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's market out there for those people.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I've found uh over the years is that when you have a recession or a tightening of the belts, it's the people that buy the the cheaper stuff that stop buying the cheaper stuff.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the people that buy the one-on-one's they've got all the money in the world.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: The recession doesn't bother them at all.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they still buy.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you you you lose your bottom end of the market, but the top end's still still there and ready to go.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: So they can so yeah, I mean, part of our success is we cater for everybody.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can come into our gallery and you can spend five bucks, or you can spend ten grand, whatever.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so everyone has a a chance to buy something beautiful and nice for their budget, and I think that's that's a you know, that's a good way to to be successful.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and also give them what they want.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: They need if they come into a gallery and you're in wherever you guys are, I'm not sure, somewhere, you know, whatever, Port Macquarie or I don't know, where are you guys?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: Il Wara.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: Illawarra.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: Ilawarra.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're just new.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Know the name.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wool and gong.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: About 10 minutes from Cathedral Rocks.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a famous spot in Illawora.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: Nice area.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you have a gallery and you give them that, those local iconic places that they they visit and and have their, you know, where's the most iconic beach there?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the place where people go and enjoy?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: You give them that.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: You don't give them uh a photo of a you know, um I don't know, uh like a mere cat on the savannah or something somewhere.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they they're not gonna buy that.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have a gallery with a big it might be a beautiful photo, but they're gonna go, well, yeah, I don't really care much about mere cats, but I wish you had a picture of that nice beach down at Bloody Wollongong or wherever, rubber.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you give people what they want, you give them a reason to you give them no excuses to not buy something.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, they gotta walk in, everyone's gotta take something away.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's if you have a gallery, but even online as well, you know.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um have have have a price point for everybody.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's definitely a good good uh topic, and I think people will get a lot out of that information as well.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it especially if you uh if you're gonna open up a gallery, man, you've got to just you gotta do it right.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta do it right the first time because just recently we had a a a place, a new business open up in Dunsboro, and they opened up too early before they had enough stock, and they didn't even have signage, but they opened their doors, and we walked in and it's went, oh, this is pretty minimal.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I'm just gonna go back in in case it's the same.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got to do everything perfect, it's gonna be right.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and one thing is about our gallery.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if you guys have been over our way and you've been to my gallery at all.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's on my wish list, actually.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm planning.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't been over to Western Australia for a long time now.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean 10 years.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm due.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm overdue for a visit.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I could.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you get over, come and see me.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: But um, when you walk into our gallery, there's lots, it's two-story, it's you know, lofted sort of so when you walk in, you can go in lots of different directions and you can hide behind things.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: Our counter is not at the front door, it's tucked around down in the back.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: We'll greet people, let them know that we know they're there, and they can help, we can help them if they need any help.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you go wander around and they can hide and they go upstairs and you can spend and and um Tom Putt called it.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: He said he said our gallery was sticky, which you know means you go in there and you spend a lot of time in there.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: As opposed to going to a small space where you walk around and you walk down that wall, and you walk down that wall, and then you walk out.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're done.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: But then you've got to do the run of the gauntlet past the the the gallery owner at the front counter standing there waiting to look at you as you come out.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people get freaked out by going to galleries and the gallery experience not sometimes it's not pleasant.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even I do.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: I go into a gallery and it's like, oh shit, I hope they don't want me to buy anything, you know.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just coming in for a look.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you feel kind of this you feel a bit some people really uptight.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: I see a lot of mostly guys where their wives go in and the guys like, Oh, geez, don't you buy anything, don't you buy anything?
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Their credit cards heating up in their wallet if they're walking around, you're like, Fuck it, I can I can feel the sale coming.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Shit.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_05: So um I do agree.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_05: I do agree with you having it.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_05: Is very, very awkward and confronting having the the store owner or the um sitting at the front of the of the gallery or even at the shop in general.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_05: Is that you you walk in, you're like, oh, I feel guilty for not buying anything, but it's there's nothing there that I really wanted.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's and I do totally get what you're saying about it being uncomfortable.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny when you sit in a gallery.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I've sat in a few galleries um during like either group exhibitions or in my own solo exhibition, and you get such a different range of personality that walks in there.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: The my my most recent one I had a as I was sitting in the gallery, there's a massive group exhibition, maybe like 12 artists or something.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this one lady walked in and she did everything she could to not make eye contact with me.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of like it's it was a really big open sort of um warehouse gallery.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of said, Oh, give it a nice to see her and you know, have a good look around.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't ever gonna try to sell her anything.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, if she buys something, she buys something.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what it is.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: But she did everything she could.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everywhere she'd come like walk around at the corner, and I'd be sitting there and I'm like kind of just seeing what she's doing.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she like just turn around real quick to like try and not look at me.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Oh, she doesn't want to talk to me.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna like not not worry about it, you know.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, then you get the others that tell me about this one, tell me about that one.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this one?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can I get this one in blue, not green?
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like they ask you crazy questions, like can you change the colour of the picture?
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, suit my cushions, you know, that's easy.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and that's it.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you get lots of different um people, that different personalities, and they they definitely um, you know, you know who's gonna buy and you you know who doesn't want to buy.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you can just you can just tell.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we just give everyone a free reign to do whatever.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: We don't, you know, we don't ever pressure anyone.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't, I I don't need if someone asks about a photo, I'll I'll give them some basics, but I'll change the conversation to them.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that the best way to sell something is to actually be interested in the person that's walked in the door and you become friendly with them.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't buy anything that day, they may come back.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, that was a nice experience.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a nice guy.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's uh this next time we're down and we we want to get a present, let's go, let's go get something from him.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I learned that from uh from the video video shop days actually, because one of my guy, one of our sales guys, who became one of my best mates, he he would come in and he was from Warner Brothers video.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he would say, Oh, these are our movies that were coming out this this month, and then just put it out, give us the information, and then and then we just start chatting about other things, you know?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he would never ever push us towards anything.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually, because we liked him so much, it became we just he would come in then and we'd say, What do we need to order?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, look, I reckon this one's gonna be really good.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: I and he would do the order for us.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: You order for us, don't and and and that's you know, because we liked him and we were happy to give him as much work as we could uh because you know he was a good guy.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, and you do that, you know.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you you know, you think about anything you're gonna buy, you go to a camera store and you you meet uh uh one of the sales guys who you just you know he's just a cool guy that just you connect with and he's happy to uh help you out and doesn't want anything and asks about you, is interested in what you do and remembers what you did last time, you know, when you come when you come back in.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, how'd that go?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: How'd your trip go?
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: They're the sort of people you buy my buy things from.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're the people that can sell stuff.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like apart from the product, you're selling the experience.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's your main do you have a go-to phrase, the way you like try to switch the conversation up on people?
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, usually it's uh for us, it's easy because um we'll say, Oh, where you from?
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're in a tourist town, yeah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: Most people from Perth or whatever, if they've got a foreign accent, which country are you from?
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we're some of this.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, ah, then you just start yakking about, oh, what's going on over there?
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: How's the weather over there?
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: What any galleries?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you do over there?
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, you just uh you just get them talking about themselves.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you think about that.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever I I've met a I've met a few photographers recently where you get together, all right, what am I gonna catch up on to come and see you, on a talk to you, and right?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when when when you they come and see you, they just talk about themselves.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: They don't they never ask you a question about you.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: So eventually you get a kind of feeling like, oh well, this guy doesn't give a shit about who I am, he just wants me to you know tell me, which I'm doing to you guys right now, but we are doing a podcast.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, well we that's why we got you on the show.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: So at listen to you.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the 70-30 rule, right?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: You talk 70% and we listen and and take it in because you know we want to learn more about you.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_05: But that's also why we started the podcast, is so we can get other people's stories out about the photographers.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_05: Like I enjoy hearing people's stories and and I mean, like I've followed your stuff for quite some time now, and and you see it on social media, but there's you don't really get the general conversation you do across socials.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_05: And like and I think this is that this is why we did it, so we can chat and just become a bit more of a community instead of just uh hey, look at me, look at me, look at me.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think social media feels like to me, I hate social media.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I everyone has to use it, but like the actual the whole um way it operates, I get stuck.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: I get I get sucked into it, dude.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll be in that doom scroll within like 14 seconds, it's like, and then 20 minutes, like, what did I have to do here?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's why I I dislike it so much.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: But like so like Dean said, the idea of the podcast is that you you see these people online, but you don't actually really have any substance to any kind of sort of friendship or or knowledge of who that person is.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's I think the podcast for for me and for Dean is is really a good way just to sort of connect and learn about all these people in the industry and what they have to give.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it that's you know, that's that's what building the community is all about.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, social media, I I had I guess a classic example.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I've put up a picture of a kangaroo under a tree.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um Australian looking tree.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it somehow for some reason it meant it it got the most amount of likes or hits or views or like 250,000 interactions or something stupid, which has never happened.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: All my stuff's I'm lucky to get 2,000 interact people interact with it.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's 250,000.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: Freaking 700 comments, all this sort of shit.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: Not one person said, I love this, I want to buy it.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: All that interaction.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not one person said they wanted to buy it.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: And to this day, I still haven't sold it.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: But it was the biggest.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it made me think, okay, the people that are on social media aren't my clients.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: My my clients walk in off the street and they just stumble across the gallery.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: They don't hear about it, they don't read about it.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: They walk in, they go, they're impressed, they look at the stuff, they go away, they get online, they buy something, or they come back.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: We have people that come back every year.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: Every time they come in south, we've got to come to your gallery and see what you've done, you know?
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they and that's they're my customers.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: People that are on people that are scrolling on on Instagram and stuff, they're um, they're other photographers or people that I know, but they're not my customers.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I don't put much importance on you know social media influencing, all that sort of stuff.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you want people that and the people that buy my stuff, they're not all over Instagram.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're not the you know, young folks snapchatting each other and all that.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're older people that don't give a shit about social media that just want to um just walk in, either just walking up the street or they've been in before.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we've been going my gallery's been going for 23 years.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's there, it's been there.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's an institution.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the Christian Thurston Gallery in Dunsboro is somewhere you go and have a look at every time you come down.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the yelling up galleries, it's the same thing.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: That that yelling up galleries has been going for a similar amount of time.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: You you know, you come down, you go to yelling up galleries, there's a few other new ones.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you come to my gallery, and you know, you go to the Dunsboro Bakery and get a pie.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're talking part of the circuit, right?
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: You all the little stop in here, you get a coffee, you stop in there, you get a pie, you stop in here and you look at art, right?
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's part of that.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're on the we're on the circuit, we're on the yeah, part of the scene.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and that's just come from being there for so long.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: And being friendly and kind and good.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_02: We do things in the community, we you know, donate stuff all the time and uh get behind things.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know you you're in a small town and you you become you become recognized for being good citizens of the community, and people then the locals want to support you as well.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you get you give you you give out a bit and you you get tenfold back, you know.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is the thing.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_05: So but being in the game for for as long as you have 34 years, I think you said, um, what do you think the some of the challenges photographers are facing nowadays in comparison to what you did when um when you first started?
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I just think there's um when I started, I was the only photographer in Dunsborough.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic challenge these days before one's a photographer.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know I I you know I could have done all the work in the world, I could have been as busy as hell.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I had no confidence in the early days.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: So these days, you can be more confident because you have more understanding of what's happening in the camera when you push the button.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: We've got all the tools to help us.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's much I think it's easier in some ways to get a good quality photo, but it's harder in that there's so many people that can get a good quality photo back in the back in the day at film, it was it was technical and and you had to learn either on the job or uh through someone else.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: You could get on YouTube, Australian.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I I had a terrible light, especially with lighting.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea what I was doing with lighting, and I didn't know how to learn all trees and and uh so that real Australian these days.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's just you know it gets fog iPhones to take great photos now, sort of special lighting people.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh learning photography that's I think that's great, classic Australian lands to be away from the beach, and which you did not too fast.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you have to be a photographer?
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do cool things more than more fantastic styles and 17 stars.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'd be like looking at.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's easy to do that in winter.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Summer it's a little bit harder.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, that we just uh yeah, you don't get any faults or light can be a bit harsher and stuff.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, that's that's what I'm um but look, I I'll shoot anything, man.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I that's that's wherever I am.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: If there's a shot to be had, um it doesn't matter if it's urban or whether it's a beach or whether it's a bush or an aerial, you know.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've got my drone, so I'll I'll still do aerials, and we've got some great locations to do aerials over here.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty spoiled.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_02: What what drone are you using at the moment?
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was using the Orchel Evo, um, but that um I lost that one.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: That was an expensive day.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So then I bought the Mavic Pro 3, yeah, okay, a new one.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um with the three cameras, and that's that's good.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think the file, the photo quality is as good as the Hortel was.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's why I went for the Orchel in the first place.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I'm using that that drone now, and I'm I'm happy with it.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's you know, it flies better, it's faster.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um it does all that sort of thing.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You like stitching and stuff like that.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I've been stitching, I've been using the the longer lens and stitching ones together, making some nice panos, which work pretty good.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, I do like the the the longer focal lengths.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So if they could do those, but with uh with a bigger sensor, um would be nice.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: But look, I'm using gigapixel AI to enlarge these things.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm making two-meter prints on the long side of from Aerials from this 20-megapixel camera and incredible what you can get out of it now.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, really?
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm looking at I'm looking forward to seeing the files because I've just bought a drone as well, but I bought it for a business I've started.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_05: So it's not it's not the Mavic 3 Pro, but it's a Mavic, it's a Air 3.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm actually pretty keen to see the files from that too.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_05: But I might give that Gigapixel AI a go.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Even Adobe Camera RAW, that has like a nice um in large with AI now.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty cool as well.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's not bad.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty pretty close to that gigapixel AI.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I haven't um because I know that they did the um the super, what about uh a while back, it was a year or so, two ago, they had that enlarging thing in camera raw.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I I did the test on that and Gigapixel, and Gigapixel is in front.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So whether they change it now, like you said, if they got a new AI version of it, um, then I I haven't looked at it yet, but that might be worthwhile checking out.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I know the D noise, the new D noise in Camera RAW and Lightroom is really good.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's yeah, that's really good.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_05: I know you got that crap, I know you haven't used it.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I know you bounce around your styles a fair bit, like or your genres, I should say, not style.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_05: But if you had to sit on one of them, what would it be?
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: If that just the one style, it would probably be the urban stuff.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was hoping you're gonna say that.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I like the urban style.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because I think like the way you do your urban stuff actually makes it look like art as opposed to I think typically like I see urban stuff.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like the things you shoot, you make them look so artistic.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most people would just drive past without looking at it, right?
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I you know, I've done I do things like I shoot fairly straight on.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: So banal scene, so I make sure there's very almost most times there's very little perspective, you know, next to no perspective.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's all fairly flat.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Then I I look at the colours and then I'll I'll take signage out, I'll I'll add colour in.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: If it's a if it's a tilt panel building, I'm um, I I'll get out there and um um put paint the you know, digitally paint the tilt panel different colours.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um put in new skies, you know, beautiful fluffy, fluffy white clouds on a blue sky go so nicely in those urban scenes, you know, really.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: They they just lend themselves to it.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and like I talk about when you're getting the contrast out, just making them look more illustrative, almost like they're painted as opposed to photograph.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because as soon as you get you get set, I I I look at some, not all, but some people's urban stuff, and it just looks harsh.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, dude, you haven't, you know, you've got to get rid of that contrast because it's the shadows are too too strong, you know, the colours are too deep and saturated.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: You just lighten everything up, make more pasto on.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's what gives it a really nice look, I reckon.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting you said like if it was a tilt panel, you start painting panels different colours.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I've looked at it and go, man, where does he find these cool buildings with the hectic paint?
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it's you, it's you changing them around.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so believable.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you do such a good job at it.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers, yeah.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if that's that's all you have to do, as long as it's as long as it looks real.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's one in particular I did of a tilt panel building, and it was behind the car wash in Bustleton.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just Boston's not a really inspiring town.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I came out of the car wash and I thought that looks kind of interesting.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I like just like the shape, the angles.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I painted one panel pink and one was yellow, and I had a blue sky, I grabbed a palm tree from another town and I put that in.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I put it together, and I didn't I signed it, made a print that didn't say where it was from.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the lady came in, she goes, Oh, that looks amazing.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I love that.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I really I think I might get that.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where would where did you shoot that?
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was that in Miami?
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: I said, No, it was in Busselton.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, Oh, Bustleton.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, they went away and didn't buy it.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, she just said Miami.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And a month later she came back and said, Oh, okay, I really like it.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I just won't tell anyone where it was shot.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_05: But that's the joy anyway.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's the joy of um like what you do, and and similar to what I do, is that it can be anywhere in the world and it has no reference.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_05: So for that lady that wanted something from Miami, like, I mean, it doesn't really matter, it's a piece of art, right?
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_05: Just put it on the wall and don't worry where it's from.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting when you see the difference between people who buy it because it's art or the colour, or the people who specifically buy just because of the name of the print is the location.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think I did that once at a at a market store.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's in Jervis Bay, which is probably an hour south from here, there's a campground where all the families always go called uh Green Patch.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's got this little inlet.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I called this photo Green Patch and did it, like you said, a little matter print.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I put it on the floor, and all these kids like, we're staying there.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, fold out.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I was like, yes.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a trick.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people want it.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_02: They I mean, they're and I mean, you I I hate it, the word souvenir, but that's kind of what they are.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're souvenirs.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then you know, most of the stuff I sell is a souvenir because people come in and they go, Oh man, we were at Yelling Up Beach and it was so beautiful, and this photo reminds me of that day.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want it, I want to have that hanging in my office so I can remember that that experience, and that's great.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then you get other people that'll buy something that's from could be generic, could be from anywhere in the world.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And they want it because they they love just to look at as a piece of art.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you yeah, you get your people buying things for different reasons.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a favorite client?
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Favorite a favorite client that comes in.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Clients, yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've got one guy, yeah.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's bought two houses.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_02: He's spent man, he spent together about just under 70 grand.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_05: He's doing his house at with all my stuff.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_05: So is he buying the work for art or for as a as just a photograph?
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: He's just loved my work and just wanted it all in his house.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: So he's got got two, he's got three four houses.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh he's got two and he's I got more to go.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And every time he comes and he wants to he wants to um to do a bigger order than the previous time.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh there.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, he's our favorite.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's awesome, and a lovely guy too, self-made guy.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, awesome.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, with an electrician, come up with a good idea, sold it to his half his business to or whatever it was their half to Macquarie Bank and um and cashed in.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um fantastic.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now he's just man, it's got everything.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Gotta love a good success story.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's good, you know, you know, and and he and never ask for a discount.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And those those people generally don't.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's all the ones that got, you know, come down from money or whatever, or the you know, all the would-bees if they could be, they come in and they're always yeah, they'll they want a big discount and then they'll jump in their Maserati and drive back and it's like pisses you off.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, dude, just just pay the sticker price, you know.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're you know, we're not getting around in Maseratis, just you know, stop being a tight ass.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_02: You got all the money in the world.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_02: You're on a bicycle.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I rode a bike to work today, and you've got a Maserati.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm on my bike.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, the um just that guy, he ended up buying a few, yeah.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So and I had to deliver them to his house, and I get there.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's two Maseratis in the driveway, one's a convertible and one's a SUV one.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Oh, I said, Oh, so and he's him and his wife came to the door, and I said, Which so which is yours and which is the wife's?
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, They're both mine, hers is around the corner, and she had a uh a Porsche Panamara.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_02: That was her car, you know.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_03: He's a parked out front.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_03: And he screwed me and he's like, Oh man, look, oh geez, the price of you're gonna have to tight your bloody belt, man.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is oh, this is Bunny Daylight robbery.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you know, me.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, just funny.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I liked him and that he was he was a real character.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, um, but yeah, he just he screwed us, you know.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Got screwed over by this rich stockbroker.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you'll listen to this podcast.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I uh hope he doesn't listen.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, he'll probably have to sue me or something.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, watch his name, we'll send it to him.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_05: So what's coming up next for you, mate?
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_05: Have you got any big plans coming up for 2024?
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_05: So this year.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my daughter has just finished high school.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Which means that we don't have to be at home for any particular reason.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Winning.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so we we bought a little cheapo uh camper with a rooftop tent.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna just I'm gonna do a new book on Western Australia.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna start traveling for that just in WA, uh obviously, because it's a book on Western Australia.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll we'll just um uh put that together as we go.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, we now we can go pack up and go, right, let's go to this location and just sit there until I get the shots I want.
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we don't have to race home, you know, we've got started story.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so next year is gonna be a good year for just being free.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm you know, I'm 60 soon, you know, in the in a year and a half, I'll be 60.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I figure I've done enough, you know.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do it for you now.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't need to um be winning competitions or competing with anybody.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_02: I got my little niche, I got my little market, uh, I've got my gallery.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to take nice photos and just stay out of everyone's way, let everyone do what they want to do.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'll get my photos, sell my pictures, and retire on you know what we've got now, and not not try and strive for bigger and better or more or more galleries or you know, more money or whatever.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we're we're in a good place.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we paid all our debts down and and we're just now we're just trying to enjoy life.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Time to cruise, great, great outlook.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, and uh you know, I've done all the hard stuff, I've done all the sweating and uh trying to trying to get my name out there and and be you know recognized and and um get to a point where it's like well that's all good, but I I don't care if I'm not recognized anymore.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, almost don't want to be, you know, because I just want to fade away and uh let everyone else have a go.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you can't you can't fade away, no.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well I'll always do my work, yeah.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't need to uh I don't feel like I don't, you know, I don't need to tell anyone about it anymore.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So much, you know.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this podcast is great, it's always nice to but yeah, but what I you know I was really competitive, I've always been quite competitive, so I've always wanted to succeed.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think success for me now is to create a lifestyle that suits what my wife and I want to do, which is to to work less, to be less stressed, to to travel and see things and have fun and do things and enjoy the I mean, man, you know, 20 through 23 years of having a gallery, seven days a week.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's a seven-day week business.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I've done a lot of those hours myself.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I've just finally uh, you know, got my gear at home now, so I can edit at home and put everything into the cloud so it can go to the gallery and the girls can make the prints if if we get any orders.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a girl who does my printing for me now, she's really good.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I still do all the editing and all the post-production and that.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, I I I want to be able to do do the work on the business from anywhere in the in the world or the country or whatever.
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, let you young guys take over and be successful.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_05: We will try.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_05: Do you have any Phil?
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_05: I can tell you that.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any tips for anyone that aspires to sort of go the way you went if with having a gallery and making it success successful?
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, tips.
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um you just it's a long, long road, and that's the the the thing is to never give up on your dream.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And if you know it's so easy, like I'm doing a bit of drawing and painting again now, I'm just doing some digital stuff, and I did a little one a couple of days ago, and my wife she she said something which made me I had a had a win.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I just drew uh uh an eye with some oil paints on my on my computer, and it looked really good, and I I was really I I had got a good feeling from it.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then last night I got on and I I was painting a car that I did in Cuba and I was just and it was not coming out right and it was difficult, and I go, geez, this is gonna take a bit longer.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't have a win.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of left it feeling like um I didn't I didn't succeed, but I was waiting, you know, as photographers we get immediate satisfaction.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we see the photo straight away, we edit, we can do that quite quickly, and then bum, you know, they just make a beautiful print.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you equate that to a business, you won't get the success straight away.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: It'll take a while, and you but you can't let those little setbacks uh stop you from doing it.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my first uh well the first year I did photography, my total turnover for the year, this is doing you know as much as I could buy and it was fifteen thousand dollars.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I made for a whole year.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in and I I made a loss four years straight.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that was probably pretty similar sort of you know figures each year.
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot, you know.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean you can give up pretty easy when you're making no money and you're not getting any traction.
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's it doesn't seem to be getting better year by year, but you just gotta keep going and go, well, okay, what is stopping me from being successful?
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's me and my attitude and my you know thought that I can't do it.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_02: But if you think, no, no, I'm gonna keep going, I'm gonna keep going, you know, I'm gonna get it better, I'm gonna learn everything I can.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's gonna take a bit of time, and you give yourself that time.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you don't feel so bad about it taking a lot of time, if you know what I'm saying.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be impatient.
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's easier to be impatient these days, yeah.
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh especially for for young young kids, because they're they kind of they know they they all have had all their lives instant gratification.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_02: All the all the social media and the and you know, things are easy.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Take away food, you know, it's there's never been, you know, a a day where they haven't had everything at their fingertips.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_02: They've got all the they just need a laptop.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, I mean, there's they can make music, they can make films, they can make photography, um they can do everything they want.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_02: All the technology's there, and it's relatively cheap.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing that stops them is uh is ideas and perseverance.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's what it is.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just gotta keep going.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to ask you about your printing.
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you're doing that all in-house?
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's awesome.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Usually good control, right?
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I got my first print uh 20 years ago.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was an Epson 9600, I think it was.
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um we started doing canvases with that, just canvases.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the time they there was a whole lot of bronzing issues going on with those printers back then.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_02: The inks were they um any bit of paper that didn't have any um ink on it was a different uh sort of shininess to the ink.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: version um so that's a change but yeah so uh I use two printers I've got the um Epson uh 20 uh 2020s the 2000s and the 1000 series printers um so the 44 and the 64 inch printers and they're getting on a bit now um but they're still pretty good I'm waiting for Epson to come out with a new one but that's a that's a touchy subject are they the eight or eleven colour sorry are they eight or eleven colour they uh ten oh yeah ten or eleven that might be ten or eleven yeah that'd be nice it gives you heaps of yeah it's great heaps of tonality there that'd be awesome yeah oh man now yeah I mean if if you want to um if you want to get into printing and all that then I mean we did it because it was economical yeah um like when I had my first film scanner I I bought that was sixteen and a half thousand dollars for an Imcon scanner but that was only 400 scans if I was going to go to a lab to get it done.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought well 400 scans I'm gonna do I'll do 400 scans in a year probably so I'll buy this damn thing and um it'll eventually it'll be free, you know?
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that and so yeah same with the printing um you know if you add up all the money you spend on prints and look it's another way to be successful if you've got a gallery and you're gonna send a print off to somebody if you have to go to the lab to get it done I mean you're you're paying three times more than it would cost probably maybe more.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know the lab's loving it.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't suggest that you you know don't go to a lab but have your own printer you just go do the maths you know sit down and do a spreadsheet okay how many prints do I need to make to to pay this thing off and they're not that expensive really in the scheme of things when you think well what they do and how long they're gonna last for but you do need to be making prints on a regular basis because they will you know lock up and they need to be run and but that's not you can always just do a a nozzle check you know once a week and yeah and that's probably enough.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Do multiple test prints per week.
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I find it's pretty rare that like the the test print even comes out slightly off you know yeah you have to like really either lose power halfway through a print or just have the machine completely like turned off and then not you know not agitate the ink so fine.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then like you'll print it out and you just get this messed up test line.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're like what the hell is that?
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah yeah that can be frustrating and I I've struggled with mine over over time over the years.
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know and sometimes the paper as well you know you'll get a little spot in the cotton papers you'll get a little cotton seed that'll be in a white border at the very end of a two and a half meter print and you just go F word you know like that that sucks.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know that's uh you look at it and go shit that's a lot of paper a lot of ink.
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah that's happened all the time at least at least if you're doing it yourself you know it's a cost price right because even I find even with a little like uh P800 printer if you were to get say like a 40 inch print like a panel done you know it costs you$150 or something.
• 1:31:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if you print it at home it costs you like$4.95.
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's like it's so much cheaper you know yeah absolutely but in turn what that does if you do have your own printer you can bring down the cost for your customer.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_00: No you just jack it up even more than that too you could you keep you keep the price as if you had to outsource it yeah in case your printer goes offline.
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_02: So there's different yeah true good point different thoughts about this is um cost price you know and all that and and and my so the way I look at things is if I buy something I go for the most expensive one because I think it's gonna it's the perception that it's better.
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So but I'm talking about smaller items like you go to the I go to Coles right and we love maple syrup so we'll get maple syrup but you can buy the the Coles brand maple syrup for seven bucks or you can get the stuff that's straight from Canada for nine bucks I always buy that I always buy the nine dollar bottle.
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know you know it's funny you use this as an analogy because I've literally just done this with maple syrup maple really and the nine dollar one is better.
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the cheap one is it maple syrup it's maple flavored syrup right yeah it's sorry if you look at the ingredients on the cheap one and it has sugar that's not maple syrup.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_05: No sorry I I just had to throw that in there just so you knew that the cheap one is crap.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you've been making the right decision yeah yeah you know you think if you think about pricing it is um we all think about what we can afford you know I I and and I struggled with the pricing for decades going oh shit man we oh this is getting a bit expensive now um I I couldn't afford to to pay that or I wouldn't want to pay that but man the the we are the poor ones we're photographers man we're not we're not rich mining executives and you know there's people out there that just scoff at the price they don't need that ain't doesn't even factor into their their equation.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you have to be a little bit careful to to not price yourself too low there's to make you look less important.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah you know you're an artist and artists should get paid you know good money for what they do because it's not just the cost of the paper and that it's your time it's the years that you've been doing this the the all the all the training the courses you've done the money you spent on equipment and it just I mean I know it's like it's hard because you go oh well you know I don't have a big client list to to um to start chart cranking around because it might just cut all my sales out so there's a like a a line between that's why we have the different price points you know the open editions and the limited editions and the one-on-ones you go so you can crank the one on ones up really high.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then and people because there's people out there that want that they want a completely unique piece that no one else has got and they got the money and they don't give a shit.
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I um one thing we we don't like to do and we won't advertise is a sale because it's uh art and how do you how can you discount it you know why why would you discount it you know it's not a it's if you discount it then it is maybe a souvenir and that and that's what um that that it takes away that is it art then or is it just a souvenir?
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just uh something in a gift shop yeah so you look at guys like Bill Henson you know you won't buy Bill Henson for under$30,000 you know at his costs are no no greater than ours um yeah he's printing his own so it's probably less than what you guys are charging for your comparable size piece.
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's he's gone you know what this is serious art this is you know this is what it costs you know you're not you're not paying for the materials we all know that I mean even if you charged a reasonable amount it's still you know you know you're cranking up the price on what it actually costs you so I think um you gotta get to a point where you and it's hard because you know I mean it's expensive and and and funny I was in the gallery yesterday and I was fixing something and there was a three girls young girls in there and they walked past and they didn't realize I was there and they said oh they're they're quite expensive you know and I just said you know so they and then they saw me and they kind of off they went you know well I think they said they they're really expensive.
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought yeah well you know they are yeah um but you know you're getting um 34 years of experience and you're getting a Christian fetch it you're not getting um something you can get from IKEA or Harvey Norman or something like that.
• 1:36:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know this is a you know this is a an iconic piece of artwork that's I'm not saying I I don't want to sound like I'm a no totally I get I get the perspective lucky to have one you bastard you know that's how you go this is really expensive.
• 1:36:41
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be lucky to have one you little bastard yeah give it back to them.
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Crikey fuck you do not know that your Kmart's gonna last you a week yeah so but yeah so that's just some some that's something I think about yeah how do you think how do you go about um sort of noticing when you're too high or too low like where do you think um do you notice people coming if you're not selling a piece at all would any UH oh maybe we would drop it down and not be humbled by the market so much.
• 1:37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that you'd do that or it would just get removed?
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah we we um yeah if it doesn't sell um just take it out of circulation or like if it's in the gallery we have things that will be in a certain spot and won't sell we'll move it and the next day they'll sell so it's it's you just got to get the right person the right buyer and um you have things that are really expensive in the in the gallery that makes the other ones look cheap.
• 1:37:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have a$10,000 piece there and it's next to one that's three thousand dollars or something that$3,000 one seems cheap.
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have the most expensive one is$3,000 and the cheapest is a thousand that$3,000 seems expensive and the$1,000 one seems cheap.
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all kind of relative and yeah you look at most artists they're selling their stuff especially for the 101 you know a painter will will their prices are up there now eight ten twelve grand for a you know a mid mid-career artist doing a painting um and people buy those you know they're you know so yeah I I think have your really expensive pieces and then and don't be don't be put off by um what we can afford you know as as scumbag photographers think about I mean I mean you you've got you obviously got ritzy areas over there where you are think about all those houses on the hill overlooking the ocean you know the people with holiday homes that are coming down from Sydney they got all the money in the world man you know and they deserve to pay good money for it and they want to like me that my maple syrup you know I was you know and I just bought a road bike a new road bike and and I was looking at all the road bikes and initially I was going oh I'm not gonna spend more than maybe five or six grand on a road bike and I was looking at those ones and then I was going yeah but it hasn't got this it hasn't got that and then it and eventually I started looking at the bikes that were$13,$14$15,000 and I'm just looking at all those bikes oh they're beautiful look at them and I ended up settling on a bike that was nine thousand which is more than I wanted to spend but it was less than the the really expensive ones.
• 1:39:24
  SPEAKER_05: So those really expensive ones made the nine thousand seem quite reasonable even though it wasn't it yeah um and it's easier to get over the line with your wife too I could have bought this one as 15000 but I settled for the 9,000.
• 1:39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that's right I had to go to buy my wife and she had proof um because she she knew that if I didn't I'd get fat you know if I don't ride my bike and yeah she said you got you got five bikes Christian why do you need the other one but that's they're old I mean my race racing bike's nine years old so I needed a new one all that all my mates you know they're all they're all riding new aerobikes and stuff and they're you know and I said honey it's important for my health you know maybe like surfboards are the same yeah like you've got nine surfboards it's like yeah but I need two I just need two more for these are different for different waves yeah that's right yeah yeah you've got to get the ones in between just like lenses you know you need a lens to do the job you need a board to do the job I might have to start applying that to my wife with golf clubs the pricing is important don't um don't undersell your importance and I think some people they want to spend more money you know they they want to think that and it helps elevate you as a as an artist and as a as a good quality artist or they must be good quality because look at look look at the money they're charging.
• 1:40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh okay well I want to get uh Carl strand up because you know it's you know I can get one of his five grands down the road his a two but I like Carl's better and I want something that's you know I can talk about and brag about it's an investment or it's you know whatever you know um so and people have got the money and it's yeah things that seem expensive now probably aren't really in the in the scheme of things.
• 1:41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah okay when you can compare you think about how big a wall you can fill with one of your pieces for a third of the price of what a a comparable painting would be from a from a you know and there's a lot of people out there that like photography in Australia.
• 1:41:29
  SPEAKER_02: They like they prefer photography over over paintings.
• 1:41:32
  SPEAKER_02: I need to find more of those people yeah yeah yeah I mean you guys are on the on the edge of huge population I mean you WA is tiny compared to what you guys got up there.
• 1:41:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got all the people in the world they just got you just got to get in front of them educate them.
• 1:41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Educate that that seems to be the most common thing with selling photography is the education of what someone's buying agreed yeah yeah yeah let them let them know how important it is and if you speak to Les Walking he'll tell you that this is the most important thing that we can do as humans is to create beautiful art.
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um if you can express that to the client make them you know feel that that that that is special what you're getting is special.
• 1:42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also about how you package it and how it comes to you know when you go get an an apple product or something it wraps beautifully it's all box nicely it's important to do things like that and little touches and flourishes to your to your product.
• 1:42:36
  SPEAKER_02: So when people get it they go oh this is special you're not just another number.
• 1:42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah you get like special printed boxes and you have you use resealable boxes when you like send out VR work?
• 1:42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um no we just use rolled up roll up and a singing old tube you know um yeah no we've got we do have diff we've got custom tubes made um that we use such a um they're triangle shaped ones and they're black and we put our branding on them and inside the print will be rolled and we have customized paper that's got um my name printed on it in gold you know gold lettering and um then we have little a little um thank you cards that go in there.
• 1:43:19
  SPEAKER_02: If it's a one of one then there's a a certificate of authenticity that goes with it.
• 1:43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um and they're signed obviously and the image is signed on the back and you know you we just you know go to the sort of make the experience kind of nice um with with the branding and on it.
• 1:43:37
  SPEAKER_02: It costs you more but yeah you know it's worth it.
• 1:43:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah yeah well if you're charging a decent amount of money there's enough money left in the kitty to do two extra bits right you just charge that on top right yeah that absolutely yeah well if if you're gonna put a picture out for you know eighteen hundred bucks just make it nineteen hundred bucks and put all the all the hundred bucks worth of packaging in it which is not great for the environment so if you want to be environmental here you go put a lackey band around it just drop out of lackey band but but if you think about it um if you buy a piece of art from a photographer or an artist that will that is going to last a lot longer than a piece of art from Kmart so by buying that off a true artist you are saving the environment because it's not just rubbish it's not a throwaway piece.
• 1:44:23
  SPEAKER_02: And those big companies they don't you know big corporations are the are the reason why little cottage industries and the small industries can't survive is because we've been conditioned to go buy cheap shit from Kmart.
• 1:44:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's one good thing about my town of Dunsborough is that we have we don't have many if any chain stores in in in our town yet.
• 1:44:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good town that's a good I mean we've got coals we've just got a Woolworth skin built and Woolworths will have all they'll have the red dot and all that.
• 1:44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah we've been really good at keeping all the stores individual and owned by mums and dads as opposed to big corporations you know um so that's that's good you know the more we can uh encourage that you know more galleries yeah more cafes more interesting shops boutiques individual things items you know we can go to JB High buy anywhere in any any big city but keep them out of your small towns I might have to leverage that before the big Westfields goes into my near my house.
• 1:45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Dean has this massive Westfields about to go in don't you yeah it's about I think it's about five years away yeah which isn't five but the closest small town to where he is is this it's that's gonna be huge yeah when they build that maybe I should put a gallery in my house just for the time being well get yourself a little property somewhere with a that's uh there's somewhere out in a tourist area build your house and gallery space yeah and watch the people come I mean there's a place there's a chocolate factory here in Dunsburg oh yeah not not bath in Dunsborough and they basically that was selling melted down cabbury chocolate until they could start making their own they open on the first day they're out in the bush out in the middle of nowhere hard to find first day opened up and they had 800 people through on the first day wow wow so if you had a you know some if you said I'm a fine chocolatier get your cadries melt it down shape it into a rabbit or something and and then had your gallery space there you get I mean people love ice cream they love chocolate and um you just get them in and then show them your art and yeah you know it sounds like it's definitely a little business that I've thought about because my wife makes cakes and cupcakes and things emerging and merging the two together.
• 1:46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so pretty little cafe cafe cake suite place with with nice art across the wall you got a fence fetistry which is not far from that chocolate factory and I'm talking out in the middle of the bush we're talking nowhere you know and and it's just just and they just do all these really fine cakes really and they have this big space and um I mean you could easily do that with a gallery I always wanted to have a gallery out on a property yeah um with a with a coffee machine and cakes and you get people in and they can sit around in these beautiful gardens and I mean it's not it's all doable.
• 1:47:17
  SPEAKER_02: You just get out of the sell your house get out of the city buy you know cheap block build a build a space that's yep just a big rectangle that you can put your beautiful gallery in and have a some bedrooms in the in the back and all that there's just there's your space not all rocket sites and it's just gonna be somewhere where it's on the tourist trail where people go and offer them something to do.
• 1:47:40
  SPEAKER_02: If it's a tourist place which I'm not sure if if where you are is really touristy or not.
• 1:47:44
  SPEAKER_02: No there's a there's there's spots there yeah yeah yeah I mean that's people tourists are so bored they get it they get to a town they go what are we gonna do in this town you know oh look there's a there's a somewhere there we can get a high t you know let's go there great yeah and you got them in there you got them you know looking around great experience starts off slope and then just build it and build it and just keep going until until you kick an ass.
• 1:48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Or you just eat all your cakes and get fat.
• 1:48:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah that that sounds like a good idea as well though.
• 1:48:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah I mean look you can do anything you want really you can you can achieve any any level of success that you want there's nothing patience and position and and persistence yeah and be good at what you do you know offer them something they can't refuse.
• 1:48:38
  SPEAKER_02: They gotta walk in and go oh man I got to buy that oh John you've seen the price damn it okay or let's save up or whatever you know yeah or let's extend ourselves something that I love I want I can't live without it it's got it's gotta be on my wall.
• 1:48:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the advice from Christian Fletcher.
• 1:48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah well that's what I hope happens you know well that does happen on you know you know in our space you know we get people that have to have something uh like that lady who didn't want it because it was from Bustleton that she she um accepted that because she loved it enough to yeah to just get past the fact that it was from a a cheapo town not from Miami but that nothing but that's a true testament of your artwork though location doesn't matter yeah that's a you know it's a compliment so all right we'll wrap it up today christian so thank you so much for all your yeah yeah your chat and night laughter your information thanks for being it was awesome and most most most importantly thank you for your artwork because you've inspired me to to push my boundary as well yeah oh thanks I love being on and great chatting and um sorry I I I do wrap it on a bit so that's fine a bit longer than um than the hour we were talking about that's all right it is what it is and we we've been it's been a pleasure talking to you.
• 1:50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah likewise and um good luck and happy new year hopefully you guys get out and get some shots and get away and then enjoy all that and that while we'll be thankful yeah hopefully hopefully this uh year is special for everybody.
• 1:50:13
  SPEAKER_05: But um thanks for listening everybody and we'll catch you all on our next episode.
• 1:50:17
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah