Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / The Question That Divides Christians | Igal German | The Week in Bible Prophecy

Transcript

The Question That Divides Christians | Igal German | The Week in Bible Prophecy · The Week in Bible Prophecy

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast. Welcome
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: to the program everyone, Mano Benzalez here in studio. We
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: have our good friend doctor Egle German, and he's gonna
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: join me and we're gonna just have a conversation really
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: about a super important topic and that is something known
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: as replacement theology, fulfillment theology, supersessionism. There's a variety of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: titles for it. Before we do, before we go to
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: doctor German, I want to just remind everybody about a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: couple of things. We have our upcoming conference in Colorado
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Springs June fourth through seven. It's gonna be a great
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: time there. It's always a great time to be in
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Colorado during the first part of June. If you want
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: more information on that, you can go to prophecywatchers dot com.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: We are calling a rapture in the Rockies and we're
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: hoping that the rapture takes place. That would wouldn't that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: be great to go up during the time and not
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a prediction, but hopefully the Lord would come even sooner
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: than that. And profsywatchers dot com check it out. Also
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: to remind everybody, we're going to Israel in May. That trip
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: is full, but if you have had it on your
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: mind to go to Israel, we have another trip planned
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: for January of twenty twenty seven and you can go
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: to Israel twenty twenty seven dot com Israel twenty twenty
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: seven dot com. Check it out. You can see that
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: itinerary there and everything. It's again, it's a great time
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: to be in Israel. It's the last part of January
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: into February. I've been there during that time and it
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: is it's just a wonderful it's cool. It's a cool
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: time to be there. It's not you're not gonna be
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: roasting hot, so you go welcome, yes one.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Though, it's so good to be here. Thank you, brother,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I'm so plit privileged to be here. Made a little
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: bless prophecy mouchers. I love you guys, And it's the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: main amazing topic that we are going to discuss together and.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Save it now. So for those that might not know you,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I know, I mean people who have come to our conference.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: You've been a speaker at a conference, and so for
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: those that might not know, introduce yourself, your ministry and
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: kind of your background.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so my name is gal Gharman, and I'm an
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Israeli Messy and Jewish believer. I live in Chicago with
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: my family and the Lord bless me to launch a
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: new apologetics ministry in free languages in English, Russian and Hebrew.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Our ministry is called Faith Defenders International, and that we
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: are an apologetics group, and that we are reaching out
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: to people believers, Jewish people, people who are in all
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: kinds of spiritual deceptions, people in the cults, and we
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: are reach out to them with the Gospel of Jesus
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Christ of Ishuemashiah. We are here to proclaim the gospel.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: We are not ashamed of the gospel because that's the
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: power of God to the salvation of everyone who believes,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: to the jew first and also to the gentile. So
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: the mission of our ministry is really equipped the believers,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: train them, get them the knowledge and the tools they
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: need to go out and be effective ambassadors of the
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Kingdom of God. And I think this kind of a
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: ministry is really necessary because evangelism is number one, but
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: apologetics is somewhat you know, on the sidelines, and it's
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: we need kind of to reclaim it. So we we
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: are to reclaim biblical sound messy and apologetics, So we
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: are fave defenders. Our website is Bible Apologies dot org.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And my professional vocation, I'm a Biblical scholar. I'm a
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: professor of Old Testament studies. I teach in different theology
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: constitutions and here in Chicago and nationwide. We host conferences,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: we have YouTube channels, we hold seminars, we teach, we write,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: we publish a lot of work. So we invite you
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: all friends to check us out and join forces with
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: us as we contend for the faith of the Gospel.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty amazing too, especially you know the other
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: languages that you that you are very fluent in for sure,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: and for you know, the different apologetics. If they go
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to that website, will they be able to find ways
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: to find you on on YouTube and other things in
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: some of the videos.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, so everything is available. Our YouTube channel
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: is very easy to find out. It's a Faith Defenders
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: International doctorle Gherman, So we have that YouTube channel. If
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: you speak Russian, you can find another YouTube channel as well.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: We have lots of free content. I invite you to
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: subscribe to our free newsletter. Check us out, get in
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: tush with fast stand it fast as we stand for
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: the proof of the Gospel in our last days.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I think as we as we
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: get more and more into the last days. You know,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: I've always had love for you know, thirty some years
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: in apologetics, all different kinds, creation science, you know, you
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: name it, Colts. That's that's just kind of been my
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: background too. So I love you know first Peter three
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: fifteen that we are always to be ready to give
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: a defense apologia, this defense. That's what the tells an apology,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: not not in an English way, but in a very
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: understanding that to give a defense for the faith because
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we know that it certainly is defendable, but also as
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it says there, with gentleness and respect. So that's really
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: my heart is to defend the faith. And so here
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: in this instance, there's been a lot of conversation over
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the past really well it's long, but it's coming more
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: and more into our modern world, trying to understand the
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: role of Israel. No doubt, Israel is back in the lands.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: They've been there for seventy seven full years and this
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: is going to be their seventy eighth year in May.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: And so once Israel got back in the land. It
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: really shook up I think the theological world because prior
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to that you had those really i would say, historically speaking,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that didn't see any future for Israel, and so they
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: held to what is commonly called replacement theology, but it's
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: also called fulfillment theology or super session is an other
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: thing that you know, they don't really those proponents don't
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: often like the term replacementology, and we'll talk about that.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting now that Israel has been in the
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: land for so long that we have to have this
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: conversation because let's come right out of the gate in
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: there in the sense of from your perspective, and you've
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: had opportunities to debate and to converse and everything else
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: as many people have. So replacement theology kind of give
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: us a basic definition of that. And maybe what a
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: super sessionism. I mean, that's a real big term. Some
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: people might not know that. What does that word mean?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well the excellent questions, but are so replace
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: mythology is basically a Christian doctrine that teaches that the
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Church had replaced the nation of Israel since the first century.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So basically the premise goes, you know, most of the
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Jewish people in the land of Israel have rejected our Messiah,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Jesus Shua. So God judged them and he just decided
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: to choose people from the nations as his Church. So
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: basically the Jews God replaced by the Church. By the Church,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, a multi ethnic body of believers,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the Jewish people have no future, no future salvation, no
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: future repentance, no physical restoration, no spiritual restoration. So all
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: the promises were fulfilled in Christ and the Church in
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: the first century, so there is basically the modern state
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: of Israel has no prophetic significance according to replacement theologians,
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: So there their understanding is that with the first coming
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: of Christ, all the prophecies came to pass, so Israel
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: basically lost its status as an as an elected nation
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: in God's eyes based so they say that now we
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: are the new Israel, we are the Church, we are
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: the body of Christ got cast away the Jews. They
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: have no place in God's redemptive plan of solvation. So
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: that's basically kind of the basic tenet of replacement theology.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: The academic term is super sessionism, okay, so basically the
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: idea that the Church superseded the Jewish people. All right. Again,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: some theologians prefer to call it fulfilled in theology because
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: they say, yeah, Christ and the Church they fulfill all
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: of the prophecies of the Old Testament, so there is
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: nothing more to expect. So supersessionism or replacement theology, there
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: are very much kind of intervolving into them, into all
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: kinds of in my opinion, counter biblical eschatological systems like
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: full presterism, post millennialism, a millennialism. Okay, So many Christians
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: who uphold replacement they also hold non biblical eschatologies.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no doubt that it leads to eschatology. Of
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: course has a has a place in all theologies. But
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, their eschatology is going
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: to be far different. And so let me ask you
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: this question, because you know, I have a lot of
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: good friends, certainly believers that love Jesus. They're preaching the Gospel,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: and they will would hold to super sessionism, you know again,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: And what are the in being fair? What are what's what? What?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: What leads them? What leads them to to try to
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to see in scripture, in the New Testament, this elevation
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: of the Church and Israel being you know there. They
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: don't reject God's working through Israel, of course that's pretty obvious.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: They don't reject the Old Testament. But when Jesus comes along,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: they're like, well that the nation of Israel had its time, God,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: God bless them. They had their time. Now Jesus is here,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and so we don't need that anymore. And so this
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: new body, this new body of believers which includes jew
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: and Genta. So help us understand why they want to
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: see the continuity. There's maybe explain that that for them,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: what's the continuity in God's plan between the Old Testament
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and the New Testament or even the people of Israel
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: in the church, And then what is the discontinuity there?
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Right right? Yes, So those are very deep teological questions Mondo.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: So on the one hand, they want to see continuity
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: between the two, between the two testaments old than the New.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And on the one hand it's a good thing. I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: also believe in the continuity scripture from the Hebrew Bible
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: to the writings of the New Testament. But their understanding
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: of continuity is basically discontinuity of God's are covenantal faithfulness
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: and God's covenantal promises to specifically to the physical descendants
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: of Aber, Isaac and Jacob. So basically their understanding is
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: that kind of all those promises that were specifically given
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: to the Jewish nation to Jewish people were transferred over
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to the Church, and in this transfer, the nation itself
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: kind of lost its spiritual anchor in God's faithfulness and
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: God's covenantal promises, which I don't find in the Bible.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: So when we look into the New Testament, we see
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: that the teachings of the apostle the teachings of Jesus Christ.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Let's start with the foundation, with the massign cellf Shuahamashiah,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: with the writings of the apostles from Matthew to the
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Book of Revelation. We see how those apostles, inspired by
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: the same Holy Spirit, just like Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Micro all the profits of the Hipbow Bible, how they
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: continue to carry this hope of Israel in their hearts
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: and share the Gospel with the Jewish people and the gentiles,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: and yet still believing that yes, the time is coming
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: when the message will return, The time is coming when
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: all Israel will be saved. The time is coming for
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: the hope of Israel to come to its fulfillment literally historically.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So that's where I think we find this kind of
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: a theological disconnect Mondo in this kind of supersessionist thinking. Okay,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: because on the one hand, they want to be they
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: want to see the continuity, which is a wonderful thing,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: and I believe you and I will we would kind
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: of share them on and say, hey, good job, good job,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: yeah for the continuity gauss word. But on the other hand,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: it's way we make that when we see that the
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: unity of the covenants, when we see the unity of
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: guds war, we must see how the New Testament writers,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: how they appropriated those covenants, those promises, and they never canceled,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: not in any war, not in any teachings of Jesus
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Christ or his apostles. We see them kind of making
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: that you turn to this theological you turn that kind
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: of put things upside down and say, hey, no, now
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: we are yeah, we are believers rightnom of Israel and
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the Jedi believers, but nothing Basically that the Jews have
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: no more status as as a group of people in
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: God's eyes, right, and there is no future for them.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: So the New Testament never teaches it. So we see
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that the whole New Testament in one accord with the
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: profits of the of the Hebrew Bible. They look into
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the future. They look into the time when the Messiah turns,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: when he restores the kingdom to Israel. And that's why
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the apostles, right before Jesus sends to Heaven on the
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: amount of all of this the end, they would ask him,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: is that the time for you to restore the kingdom
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: to Israel? And Jesus did not tell them, Hey, guys, no, no,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: you're wrong. I'm not going to do that. No, he's
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: He's telling them, just sort your time. It's not the time.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And then your mission is to go at one eight
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: and be my witnesses. So I think you know, the
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: biblical understanding of the biblical doctrine of Israel is super
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: important for every believer. Is not a secondary doctrine. It's
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: not that it's not a tertiary doctrine like some theologists assert. No,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it's an important doctrine, the primary doctrine. It needs to
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: be restored. Just like doctor Arnold Flultambauma has his book
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: right is reel Lology. The missing link in systematic theology right.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And again still to this day, many teologiants, many pastors,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: they still don't. They still miss that important biblical link.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: And it's very important to reclaim the biblical truth, not
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: in order to boast with knowledge, but with humble hearts.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: To see how you can be used as God's too,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: as his servant, to go and bring the good news
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: of the Kingdom to your Jewish neighbors, to pray for
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: the peace of Jerusalem, to love them, to stand with Israel.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you have to indorse all all
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the political agenda or the political decisions, not at all, right.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: But God gives us wisdom and discernment and understanding, so
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: we can be wise, not in our own eyes, no,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: but wise with God's wisdom, like reading James chapter three,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the wisdom that is from above, and with that kind
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: of heart, we need to go out to the nations
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: and tell them that, hey, friends, all gentle believers are
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: called to be the watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: just like reading those amazing mess and asological prophecies in
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Chapter sixty I says sixty one, says sixty sixty two,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: and many other prophetic works passages in God's war. So
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: that's why it's so important for us model to develop
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: biblical apologetics of Israel. And I think it's missing in
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: the Church of the Big Time. So we are here
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to reclaim the biblical truth to help our brothers and sisters,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: not to come with a jugimental spirit to put them
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: down with anyone else, but with humble hearts, with passion
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: for the truth to come and help them see the
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: beauty and the depth of God's truth.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't recommend doctor Frucktmom's book enough. It really
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: is Israelogy. It was his PhD dissertation in New York
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: University and I remember reading it. I was nineteen years
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: old and one of the first books that somebody gave
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: me and I was like, what is this? But it was.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: But I would just sit there and read it, eating
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: my cereal in the more and trying to wrap my
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: head around because I was a brand new Christian. You
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: start seeing the depth. There's no greater work. That's why
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: he calls it the missing link and Systematilga. I wish
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: every seminary student in the country, in the world would
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: be forced to read that book because there's a reason why.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I mean the Bible's five six about Israel. And so anyways,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: one of the things that comes up is you mentioned
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: various passages in the Book of Isaiah Jeremiah. Will you
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: name it Ezekiel that are that speak about a coming
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: restoration or of Israel, or even a kingdom, a physical
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: literal kingdom of the Messiah Psalm too, you know, you
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: name it Isaiah and nine other passages. One of the
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: things that I want to get your thoughts on this
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, you know, on some of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: these viewpoints, we could sit with our our coming at
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Theologian brothers and we could say, oh, yeah, we agree,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: we agree on a lot. We agree on a lot.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: But when it comes to some of these prophecies in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the Old Testament, talk about the difference in hermaeutics because
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: for them, you know, the prophecies of the first Coming
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: of Jesus, we all agree they're literal Micah five to two,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the missiles can be born in Bethlehem. Everybody agrees. But
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: when you have other prophecies that speak about a future
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: restoration of israels of land, maybe he's equal forty through
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: forty eight, a coming millennial temple. They change the rules
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that all of a sudden they become allegorical in their
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: hermautics and then they end up somewhere else because so
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: talk about that and then talk about why, how how
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that is dis that is discontinuity, but also how that
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: how they're forced to do that? Why? Why why do
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: they go there? Why do they why? What forces them
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to go there? Right?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: More than yeah the question. So I have based on
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: my research and my interaction with different teologians and apologies
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: and pastors, I see more know that there are different
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: spiritual and theological factors playing out in the way people
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: read and interpret the Bible. So on the one hand,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: you have you know, theological traditions, so it's it's sometimes
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: it's just more convenient and it's kind of the easier
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: path for individual, for a pastor or even a theologian,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: just to go with the flow. That's kind of the
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: dominant theological perspective. You know, the Church Fathers, you know,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: some of the greater process and reformers than understand it
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: that way, and I'm better, No, I would just go
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: with the flow kind of figure. So that that's that's
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: that's one kind of factor that plays out in this discussion,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: you just you just kind of trust that you know,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: the big the giants that came before you, right, not
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the giants of Gensis six of course. Right, yeah, but okay,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: we're all standing on shoulders right of giants in a
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: good way. But the problem with this, in my opinion,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: is basically that when theological traditions trumps God's words, and
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: that is a problem because when you get to those prophecies,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: just like those you mentioned, for example, just Isaiah leven right,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the Messa and kingdom, and then you have you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: reformed theologians and other geologians were not reformed. They turn
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: to this passage and they say, oh, it's all oligorical,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: it's all symbolic, it's not literal, it's not going to
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: happen literally. I have a big problem with this reading.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I have a big problem why. Because God had given
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: us his word in a plane language, that's the Bible,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: and we take the Bible at face value of we
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: have images. Of course, we have some symbols. Of course
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: we have heavenly visions. But it's that it does not
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: mean that now you know, Isaiah elevens just you know
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: about you know, like human enemies, you know, enemies with
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: finish society, and now the records don't know.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: It's about what does specifically, what does Isaiah eleven say
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: for those that don't know.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, So if if it's total, this amazing passage,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: it's one of those clearest Messianic prophecies that we find
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: in the Gybrew Bible that speaks of the first coming
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: and the second kind of the Messiah. So in Isaiah
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: chapter eleven read about the righteous reign of the branch,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: and it's a Davidic prophecy because Isaiah chapter eleven versus
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: one reads, then a shoot will spring from the stem
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of Jesse, who was Jesse, father of David, right is
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Shi in Hebrew. Interestingly, there is a small Israeli town
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: not far from hypakod ramat is shy. Yeah, so he's
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: his name is there still there, And the branch from
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: his woods will bear fruit. And then we read about
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the spirit of that the sevenfold function of the Holy
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Spirit upon the person of the Messiah. Okay, And then
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: verses six through nine we read about the wolf fields,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: about the lamb and the lamp Hard will lie down
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: with the young gold and the cat and the young lion,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and they fell in together. Right, So we see how
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: God is going to restore the nature literally never happened before.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: We still don't see it in our world today. So
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: we clearly see that that's a prophecy that will come
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: to pass in the second coming of the Messiah.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Is there anything in there? I just I got to interrupt,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: because so verses one through five all very straightforward, literal
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: speaking about the role of the Holy Spirit. That the
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: description of the Messiah's character, and then it talks about
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: the wolf, you know, laying down with the lamb. Is
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: there anything in the text that says, okay, now it's
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: like this, it's it's Is there any indication that it
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: would go allegorical? I mean it's pretty report. Is there
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: any markers in the text that tell us double suddenly?
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So it can absolutely not.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Right. So you just read the prophecy and you see
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: it's about a literal person, it's about literal events, it's
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: about physical but real animals.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It cannot be more literal and more and more historical
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: than it is already given by the Holy Spirit. Right.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And then we read, for example, in verse verses nine
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and ten, they will not hurt or destroy in all
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: my holy mountain. What is the holy mountain of the Lord?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: That's it's Mount Zion rights Lard I mean. And then
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: of course when when you understand this basic biblical fact, like,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: come on, we all know where is the holy mountain
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: of the Lord? You reach chapter two of Isaiah, right,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: the time will come. All the nations will flow and
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: stream to worship the Lord. Yeah, the other hosts on
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: that mountain in his temple. The time is coming. And
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: then we read that the nations will resort to the
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: root of Jesse. So you see, so first one versus
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: one in ten it's like those are two bookends, right,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: So we're clearly the same prophecy who will send as
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: a signal for the people's and his resting place will
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: be glorious. And then it will happen on that day
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: that the Lord will again recover the second time if
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: he's hand the remnant of his people, who will remain.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: So we see how God will gather all the dispersed
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Jewish people from all for all the world back physically
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to the land of Israel. And it have never happened,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you know, even with the mother State of Israel. It's
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: not full, you know, not all the Jewish people are
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: back to land yet, but the time is coming. So
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: we live with this anticipation if we beleat this with
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: with this mess and home, that God will fulfill his world.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: So all those kinds of alligorical, ah non historical readings
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: of prophecy, they are misleading. They just basically they just
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: it's not acts of Jesus, it's eyes to Jesus. People
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: read their own ideas, their own theologies into the text,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: which is was never the authorial intent. So that's why
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: it's so important one that when we read God's word,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: we need to ask the Holy Spirit to be our teacher,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: to be our guide, to be our comforter, and to
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: help us see the death and the beauty of God's
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: promises the way they are given. We have no we
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: are not allowed to distort scripture. We are not allowed
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to you know, just play with it. No, it's no,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: there's a way. It's very dangerous.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that is that is well said, because I
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: think the key is ultimately and this is why even
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: in my own life, I've I've spent most of my
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: life studying hermaeutics. How do we interpret the Bible? What's
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: what's the consistent way. And uh I even I spend
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: a year in a PhD program for that reason hermaeutics,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: because I thought, man, if you don't get this right,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: then then you're and your end all your theology is
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: going to be wrong in so many ways, and we
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I can't again, uh I can't emphasize that enough. And
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that's always been hard for me. Is the inconsistency there
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: is in the First Coming. Prophecies are literal, but then
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: things like this that refer to as second Coming are
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden changed in Albernia, Well, when did
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: we change the rules? That? To me that that I
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: don't like that it's inconsistent. And my goal here, as
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: you know, is I want to be fair in how
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: we present, you know, what the views are. And then
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: and then just to assess with the Biblical and one
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of them again they they talk about super super superseding,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you know, supercessionism or superseding, that the New Testament, the
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: New Covenant, supersedes the Old Covenant. Okay, well, obviously none
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of us. I'm not out there offering my sacrifices three
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: times a year. I'm not going to Jerusalem, right, So
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in one sense, the New covenant does replace or does
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: supersede the old covenant mosaic system. So help us to
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: unpack that, because again there's some truth here. None of
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: us are offering sacrifices. How do we how do we
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: how do we then say, well, okay, that's true, but
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you're taking it too.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Far, right, right, Well, it's a very important question basically,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: it's it's so deep. It has so many aspects that
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: can should be unpacked here. But I would just try
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: to address it, you know, head on, you know, with
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: this question of letter it would be biblically, how should
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: we take the new Covenant of jeremihap with thirty one
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: or thirty one through thirty four and actually see, yes,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: we see in the first coming of Jesus Christ the fulfillment,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: right he established the new Covenant in his blood. Yes,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: and amen, we are saved by the new Covenant. We
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: are not saved by the old covenant. We are not
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: saved by bringing animal sacrifice. Yes, no question about that.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: We would all agree on that, right, yeah. But at
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the same time, the understanding the fulfillment of the sacrificial
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: shadows in the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: in his death and resurrection and ascension. All of that
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: does not mean that the prophetic aspects, all this of
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: the of the covenants, of the old covenants have no
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: place for the future. Right. Why it's important because within
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: the system of this of the Sinai Covenant, there are
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: promises for the spiritual and physical restoration of the Jewish people,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: for example in the Physicals chapter twenty six, for example,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: right so, and then you go for example to Deutromi
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: chapter thirty right thirty one, and in those chapters which
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: are actually part of of the renewed Covenant in the
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Planes of mav Right, so, we have the Sinai Covenant
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: taking place right right after the Israelits, you know, left
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Egypt and then the time passes, and right before they
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: entering the Promised Land at our forty year of the wanderings, right,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: God renews that sign a covenant in the Planes of Mau.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: So the renew of the covenant in the Book of
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Deuteronomy has major prophetic implications. So when that with dead
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: in mind, we see that there are prophetic aspects of
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: the Sinai Covenant and prophetic aspects of the renewed Covenant
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: in the Planes of Mau that are yet to be fulfilled.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So we find that God promises that the time will
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: come when the cheech people will be in the great dispersion,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: they will be in rebellion against Him. God will publish
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: them for their scenes. But the time will come for
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: a great renewal for repentance Shuvah in Hebrew, for a
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: time when the Israelites, the chews people, will turn back
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: to the Lord in their land. So those prophecies are
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: still yet to come to pass, and the New Testament
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: is actually confirming us, you know, in the Gospels, in
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: the Book of Acts, in the writings of Paul, in
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: the Book of Revelation, we see how this divine drama
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: of God and Israel places out finally in the Escaton,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: in the second coming of the Messiah, in the estabishment
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: of the Millennial kingdom with the capital city of Jerusalem.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: So while it's true that many aspects of the Sinai
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Covenant are all for Field and the Messiah, right, and
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: we're not supposed to go sec sacrifice animals and all that,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: of course, it's so clear, right, But there are important
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: prophetic truths and prophetic patterns in the Signing Covenant and
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: in the renewed covenant in the plans of mob which
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: will play out in the future. So that is very important,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and maybe it's kind of another missing link in our
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: reading of the Pentituve, because many Christians see the pendity
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: of the Torah as a dated tensil, abolished, supersed superseded.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: They don't find value. Okay, are we going to practice
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: all of the laws of Viticus now, or you know
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: about lepros seeing other things I mean people about you know,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: slavery and our things. Right, of course we live in
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: a different type. There are many things we cannot physically
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: even just just apply and do them. That's so clear, right,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: But we see spiritual prints, suppose in those divine laws,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: spiritual principles that still apply to us today, that can
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: bring a blessing to us. Not not to make us legalists,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: legal legalists, not to make not to think that now
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: we are saved by words of the law and you
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: forget not at all. No, it's just it's divine world.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: It's inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we need to
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: read there and see the prophetic in those covenants and see, yes,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: that the time will come for them to come to
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: pass fully as Jesus preached and his apostles in the
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: New Testament.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the challenge is because what I
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: see too is is and I don't mean this is
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: like an insult, but it simply to say that, oh,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: all those prophecies are all fulfilled in Jesus. To me,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: it's like it's a little bit lazy. It's it's lazy
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: in my mind, simply just to if you don't have
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: an answer for it, well we're just going to allegorize
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: it and say it's all fulfilled in Jesus. Well again
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: that that's inconsistent to me. With again, hermonutics in the
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: First Coming prophecies, they took those, they all of us.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: We take those very little. When Jesus was betrayed for
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: thirty pieces of silver, it wasn't twenty seven, it was thirty.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: He's not born in you know, in Haifa, you know,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: or whatever. He's born in Bethlehem, not in Jerusalem, in Bethlehem,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: and so we were very very strict, and if any
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of those didn't come to pass, we'd say, well, you know,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: just it's just generalized fulfillment in Jesus, you know, doesn't
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: really matter the details. No, that's not acceptable. And so,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: like I said, it's a little bit lazy, and it
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: brings them all in. And so one of the other tenants,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: which you know you kind of alluded to, was one
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of the other tenants clearly of replacement theology or fulfillment
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: theology or whatever is there's no future for Israel. And
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: so the I think that's important because again it's easy
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: to say that in nineteen twenty and a lot of
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: them did, or even his story by Augustine, you know,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: in four hundred a d. So you have these traditions
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: through all of church history. It's easy to look around
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: and Israel's gone. You know, they're they're over. Okay, Now,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: obviously we know the first believers were Jewish, so the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: fulfillment of those covenants began with Jewish people. The New
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Covenant started with Jews. Okay, that's it. That's where it started.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: And of course it's spread out to the blessings came
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: to the gentiles, and of course many like yourself, messianic
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: believer today. So there's always God has a remnant. Like
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Romans eleven says, not everybody was blinded. But how important
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: then maybe give us an understanding of it's it's they
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: can't allow in their mind. They cannot cannot allow for
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: a and they have a difficulty of recognizing or reconciling
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the idea of Israel being back in the land today.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: How is what do they say to that? How is
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: it not importan and how does how does Romans eleven
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: speak about not just future individual Jews like yourself getting saved,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: but all Israel? And maybe talk about the theology as
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: well of why would God want to bring Israel back
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: and save them as a nation through Jesus? We know
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: that's only through Jesus the missigh, what is if he
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't do that? Is there something lacking in his faithfulness
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: so to speak? Because they ended pretty poorly? Okay, So
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: what's he looking to do in the sense of his
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: own vindication? I know there's a lot there, so kind
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: of unpack it for us.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, great questions. But so I believe that
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: according to scripture, the time of the spiritual and physical
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: restoration of Israel is yet to come, and the modern
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: state of Israel established in nineteen forty eight is a
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: prophetic milestone, prophetic sign from God that God did not
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: cast the Jews away. So the modern state of Israel.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I believe, prophetically is a miracle. It's a sign of
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: divine favor, especially after the Holocaust, the tragedy, the horrific
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: tragedy of the Holocaust. We see God restoring the remnant
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: of the physical remnant of the Jewish people. He brings
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: them back home, and in the land of Israel we
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: see great spiritual revival taking place nowadays. So I believe
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: that the fact that God blessed and helped restore the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: modern state of Israel is a sign of the future
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: national restoration spiritually and physically as the nation as a whole.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Let me jump in just so that people, when you
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: say spiritual revival in the land of Israel today, that's
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: not necessarily in Yeshua.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Spiritual revivals just so people can right right.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I define spiritual revival in modern
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Israel today, I mean by that Jewish people israelis turning
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: to issue the Messiah. They are coming to faith.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: So you have Messianic believers.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Or Sei believers, the mass movement in modern Israel, so
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: I believe, and specifically in Jerusalem. So I see this
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: as God's hand at work and God is preparing the
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: world for the second coming of the Messiah, when he
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: will burn heaven. And it's the correct well ten will
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: fully come to pass. They will mourn over him, right,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: they will repent, They will accept the one whom they
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: have rejected for centuries. They beloved the only Son, the Masiah,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: the King of Israel, Jesus is Shua. So that time
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: is coming WNDO. And today the role of the church
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: is not just to watch, but to see how they
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: can play out, what role they can they can play
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: out in this spiritual reformation and transformation taking place today
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: in modern Israel and across the globe with more and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: more Jewish people coming to faith again, can we don't
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: see like a major spiritual raval here in the Jewish
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: community in America, although it happened in the twentieth century, right, So,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: but I still see God's hand in his amazing work
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: working in the lives of individuals, families, communities. So the
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: idea that no future national role for Israel contradicts the Bible,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: It contradicts history, it contradicts it contradicts current events right
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and basically it contradicts the heart of the Gospel because
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: when Paul was chained in the Book of Acts. He
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: proclaimed several times, right that I'm here for the hope
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: of Israel. I'm suffering for the sake of the hope
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: of Israel. And I don't think many Christians even take
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: a deep dive and think over this statement for the
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: hope of Israel. And that's one of God's names t
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Kvak Israel or Mickvey Israel. Right, It's one of God's
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: names names in the Hebrew Bible. And now Paul is
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: preaching that hope of Israel. Two gentiles? So what is
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: the mission of gentile believers? And I believe the answer
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: is found in Robins eleven eleven. And we read these
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: amazing words Robins eleven eleven. But by their transgressions, Salvation
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: has come to the gentiles to make them jealous. So
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: gentile believers are mandated to make Jewish people jealous. I
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: don't think many Christians are doing that, okay, in the
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: godly way, right, they don't even think of that, Like,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: how what is my calling? That's that's a divine commandment
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: right here in Robins Lennon, Right. So every believer, every pastor,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: every geologian has to revisit his beliefs, check them against
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: God's word, align his life with scripture, and then make
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: the next steps to connect with the truth of Scripture
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: about Israel in the past, in the present, and in
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: the future.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: You know, the one of the things that I think
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: is often said which gets your thoughts on is well,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: when Paul says that he's on trial, you know, for
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: the hope of Israel. Really what he means is hope
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: of the Church. And so Israel is how many times
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: in the Bible is is the church called Israel?
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Not even once, mother, not even once. We've don't, as
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I can tell, not a single reference in the Bible
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: that would say the church is called Israel.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: That that that's I mean. We read in First Christians ten,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: verse thirty two that Paul says, you know, give no
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: offense to the jew, to the gentile, or the Church. Right,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: So he's it's interesting that he brings up three different
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: groups there. And so what about though, you know, you
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: have Galatians six sixteen. You know where there Paul is
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: writing to gentiles, and he he talks about the Israel
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: of God. And that is the place where often people say, well,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: there it is Galatians six sixteen. That's he's calling the
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Galatians the Israel of God, and that would be the
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: only time that you'd ever have if they were, if
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: they were correct, that the church was specifically called Israel,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: because every other time there's always a distinction. Romans nine,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Romans eleven. It's clear that Paul is talking about ethnic.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: He uses those phrases according to the flesh, according to
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the flesh, talking about ethnic national Israel, and even Paul
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: himself being part of that, you know group. And of
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: course we know that there is a distinction as well
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: between somebody who is ethnic, an ethnic Jewish person, and
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: someone who's a spiritual ethnic Jewish person who's saved. So
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: you have those distinctions being made in Roman's nine to eleven.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: We can't get into all the details, but any thoughts
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: on the claim that, well, the church is called Israel
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: all the time, and even in Galatians six sixteen.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Right, so number one, Israel is not the church is
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: not called Israel. The only possible verse which we just highlighted,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: mode Galicious chapter six, verse sixteen, which is basically the
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: final words of Poe to the Galatians and those who
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: walk by this rule, Peace and mercy be upon them,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: and upon the rule of God. Okay, so you have
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: those who walk by the by the rule, peace and
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: mercy upon them. So basically, in the first half of
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: verse sixteen he addresses the whole church, all the believers,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: the first half of verse sixteen, and then in the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: second half of verse sixteen and upon the Israel of God. Oh,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Now he marks off a specific group, a specific subset, subgroup, Yes, subgroup,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: exactly right. Who would that group be in light of
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Pauline theology and Galatians, Yes, Jewish Christians or messi Ai Jews,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: or the remnant of Israel. So basically they are, you know, Jews,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Israelates according to the flesh, but they are also as
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: well of God. Now they know them side, they know
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: the Lord. So they have their own calling within the
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Church is world of God. Why why wouldn't that make sense? Right?
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: And that's why I believe we can make a stronger
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: argument for that reading of Galatians six sixteen if we
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: turn to Galazien chapter free. Galatian chapter free. We have
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: this passage here chapter three, verses twenty six for twenty nine,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: twenty six for twenty nine. Okay, for you are all
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: with Christ. There's neither Jew nor Greek. There is another
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: slave nor free men. There is another male nor female.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: You're all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: to Christ, then you are Abrams, descendants, heirs according to promise.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: So I believe that in this specific passage, Paul speaks
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: of the whole body of the Asiah, which is made
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: up of Jewish believers and believers from the nations. Okay,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: So what we read here actually corresponds to Galatians six sixteen,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: part one, the first part, verse sixteen. Okay. So, but
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: for example, in another text here the Latians chapter two,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: verse fifteen, Galations chapter two, verse fifteen. All right, we
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the gentiles.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: So who are we are Jews? I believe he's Referrainger
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: to his kinsman, that other Messianic believers mess Andy Jewish believers,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: just like Soul or solaror Paul. So I read Coalations
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: two fifteen together with the is role of God of
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Galatians six sixteen. Okay, So basically in Galations two fifteen,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: he's referring to other believers who are Jewish by nature
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: and not Sitars from among the Gediles, right. And then
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: in verse sixteen, second part, he actually emphasizes he focuses
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: on them and upon this world of God. So he's
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: part of the Isral of God, just like him and
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Peter and others were part of that random of Israel.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: And he alludes to it for us in Romans chapter eleven,
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: verses one through six. So I think that that creating
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: is the most natural and most compelling exogetically and geologically.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I would add too that when you see
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: what Paul is writing in to the Galatians, he talks
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: often about the circumcision, and he even he's speaking about
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: these Judaizers that are trying to add works to faith.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: You know, Galatians three, if you started by faith, why
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: you added works? I mean, come on, Fellish Galatians, you
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: started by faith. So and so he's very harsh against
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: this Jewish group which is disrupting and creating another Gospel
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: in through through works again through circumcision, and so he
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: uses some pretty strong language about them cutting themselves off right.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: So when you put it in the contrast as well,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: it makes great sense that you have this false Jewish group,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: ethnic Jewish group who is not promoting the Messiah and
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: faith in him alone. And so but you have this
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: other one, those who follow this rule, which it would
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: be the Gentiles in Galatias at sixteen, as well as
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the true is Well of God, which is following the
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: true Jewish people, the Messianic Jewish believers who are following
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: this rule. God bless them. So you have the two groups.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Clearly he's making distinction over and over. So really you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: have three groups that he's discussing. You have the mess
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: you have the Judaizers, these false Jewish ethnic group, which
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: is confronting the Gospel. You have the Gentiles who are
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: saved by faith according to faith alone. And then you
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: have the Gentile or the Jewish Messianic believers who are
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: following by faith in contrast to the Judaeir. So to
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: me it seems quite clear in the context of the
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: whole book when he talks about the Israel of God,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: there it is. And so what that shows is too
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: and I can't let you go without this is in
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Galatians three, you mentioned it in as well. Well. Some
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: people will say, well, but it says that those who
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: believe by faith are sons of Abraham. So if i'm
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: if I'm a son of Abraham, then I'm an Israelite,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I'm a Jew? Why why is that? Paul doesn't call
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: him Israelites or even spiritual Israelites by faith. He doesn't
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: even call him spiritual Jews. He calls them sons of Abraham.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Why does son of Abraham not mean a Jew or Israelite?
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: And it's a very important distinction, Mundo, because this is
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: a hebreak Jewish phrase, son of Abraham. It was a
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: common way in the first century to speak of those
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: who would align themselves with the faith of Abraham. All right,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: And that is so important because it's not really about
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: just ethnic ethnicity, just about your bloodline. It's actually about
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: your spirituality. Right, do you have the faith of Abraham?
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Do you follow his example? We'll read similarly along those
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: lines in James chapter two. Right, we have some other
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: passages Hebrews chapter eleven. We see the example of Abram
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: as that role model as the men of faith. Again,
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: nothing the biblical stories of Jesus, he acted like that
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: but overall we see him as a great men of faith.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: And the Lord calls himself the God of Abram, Isaac
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: and Jacob. So gentile believers who call upon the name
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: of the Lord, they call upon the name of the
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: God of Israel, on the name of the God of Abram,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Isaac and Jacob. They can be called sons of Abram
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: by faith. It doesn't make them introduce, It doesn't mean
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: into Israelites, right, they have their own calling. So just
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: like reading First Corinthians chapter seven, First Korinthian chapter seven,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: another key passage that I want just to kind of
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: highlight in our discussion, First Korinthians chapter seven, and we've
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: got those verses here. If we read starting in verse seventeen,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: first confidence seventh and verse seventeen, only as the Lord
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: has assigned to each one, as God has called each
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: in this manner, let him walk, And so I direct
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: in all the churches, was any man called when he
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: anyone been called in uncircumcision is not to be circumcised.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Circumcision is nothing, and other circumcisions is nothing. But what
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: matters is the keeping of the commandments of God and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: verse twenty, each man must remain in that condition in
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: which he was called. I think it's a great answer.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: So that condition is basically making us into sons and
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: daughters of Abram by faith, and it has nothing to
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: do with your ethnic background, with your bloodline. You come
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: to know the Messiah, the God of Israel, and spiritually
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: you need to align yourself with the remnant of Israel.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: So that is so important in biblical theology.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: And we know that Abraham had other sons from Ketura.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: We know that certainly Isaac had other through Esa, and
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: so Abraham had a lot of descendants that were not
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Israelite or not a son of Jacob. So's you got
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: to be careful if you want to be a son Abraham,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: are you going to be an ishmality? You know, right?
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Because the additional hell do So there's a whole lot
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: of other descendants of Abraham that were not from a
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Jacob himself. And so I think I think people are
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: trying to to force this idea of again, their goal
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: is continuity, and I understand that, but we don't. We
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: don't that's forcing on the text. You could be a
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: son of Abraham by faith, because again, as you mentioned,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: this is well known in the Greek language that you
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: have Jesus called the Pharisees the sons of the devil.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: That obviously they don't become the devil, they're associated with
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: the devil, they're followers of the devil in their rejection.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: He also talked about the sons of the prophets or
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: the sons of the Pharisees themselves, where they weren't necessarily
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: literal sons, they were followers of that viewpoint. So it's
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: interesting in languages there, you know. As we wrap it
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: up here, egall, why for those that watch prophecy, which
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: you know, you and I both, why is this topic
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: important for us to get nailed down again? We're not
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: we're not. We're not saying that anybody that's replacement elogiens
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: going to hell. That's that's not what we're saying there.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: They are brothers and sisters. But why is this topic then?
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Why are we spending the time on this? How does
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: it affect our outlook as it relates to prophetic trends
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: and what's coming.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I'm on the I believe that a biblical,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: healthy understanding of this topic can transform our lives spiritually.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: So when we look at God's word, we clearly see
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: God's heart. Right, we want to follow the heart of
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: our heavenly fire. Right, Oh, well, that's our desire. So
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: we need to understand that God loves Israel, God loves
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: the Jewish people. And now every believer has to ask
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: the following question, do I love those whom the Lord loves?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Do I stand with God's people? Do I care about
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: my Jewish neighbors, the Jewish brethren? And those are critical
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: questions because we might just kind of say, oh, it
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter, it's not a primary theological question, it's not
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: really kind of a doctrine in the Bible and just
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: brush it off. No, that's not the way to go. Friends.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: We have God's work given to us by the Holy Spirit,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: and we are to be to be diligent students of
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: the world. We are called to be like the Bereans
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: of Acts seventeen. So with that understanding, when we get
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: to the doctrine of Israel in the Bible, we see
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: God's hearts, God's promises, God's covenants. They never changed. We
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: know that the Lord does not change. He is saying yesterday, today,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: and forever. And we see important events unfolding before our
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: own eyes in the Middle East, in Israel, we see
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: the rise and anti Semitism, We see the rise in
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: false doctrines, in biblical illiteracy. We see an apostasy taking
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: root in the Church today. So with all those events
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: happening for our own eyes, how can we just bury
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: our heads in the sand and just say, oh, I
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: don't see, I don't know, I don't care. No, God
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: will not bless us if we act that way. We
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: are to have the love of Christ in our hearts.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: We are to carry the burden of Jesus Christ when
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: he wept over Jerusalem, when he lamented over his beloved city,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: and he said, the time is coming. They will not
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: see me until they say, blessed is the one who
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: comes in the name of the Lord, but a babe
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: shmad and I. So that should be our prayer today, Mondol.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: That should be our passion, that should be our hard
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: desire to stand with the Jewish people, to love them,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: to uh, to pray for them, to support those who
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: need to be supported. So it's really critical for our times.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: And again, just circling back apologetics is an important tool
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: in bringing that awareness to the to our brothers and sisters.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: It's okay to have a different opinion. It's okay to
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: have a different interpretation of a given biblical text. Right,
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: nobody is perfect. We don't have all the answers. We
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: all have our own theological blind spots. We come with
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: humble hearts, with compassion, but with biblical conviction that is
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: so important for us to be ground and in the
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: whole counsel of God, Genesis to revelation, and with that understanding,
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: we will be blessed by the Lord and will be
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: we will serve blessing to people around us.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: What's your what's your website again?
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Barmonda, So the website is bibleapologist dot org. Where
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: is it? Bible Apologies that dot org. It's a biling
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: a website English and Russian. We invite your friends to
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: check it out, subscribe, contact us. Standing fast and made
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: a little blessed Prophecy waters.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Ay Man, Thanks you Golf for being here today. And
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: I just want to say that you know, when we
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: think about this topic, it's as Ega all said, it's
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: it's super important for us because if you can't get
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Israel right, and you're looking at the world events. If
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: you don't get that right, then the whole all the
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: events that are happening right now that are going towards
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: a very specific end are going to end up being
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: confusing and you're gonna be like, well, there's nothing significant there, Oh,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: that doesn't really mean anything, when in fact it really does.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: It shows us again that the time is getting shorter
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: and shorter, and Israel being in the land, all the
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: problems that they're having, all the enemies around them, even
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: all this talk of the Board of Peace. This is
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: not accidental. This is part of the of the Lord's
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: plan to get us to the point again where he's
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: going to have a conversation with Israel during this seventy
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: Threek of Daniel, and that's going to show us again
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: of what's coming and the Lord's return, which is hopefully
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: is very very soon. So thanks for watching today as always,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: thank you for your prayers and support of what we
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: do here, and we will catch you next time.