Latest / The Bridges and Beacons Podcast / Work "CULT"ure with Sara Goscha

Transcript

Work "CULT"ure with Sara Goscha · The Bridges and Beacons Podcast

• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Mystic Nerd Squad Podcast.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Kelly Meyerson.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And today I am joined by my very good friend, Sarah Gosha.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to read her bio to you to tell you all the wonderful things about her.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to get into a really great conversation about work culture.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you read the title, we put a little quotes around cults.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, this is probably a good time.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah and I were talking before we started recording.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I said, you know what?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to, at the outset of this conversation, we're going to have a very candid conversation about work culture.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Sarah's got some great advice and some insight into all different kinds of industries.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what the thing that we're not going to do is to identify specific individuals or companies or even sectors and give them a name and give them a bad rep because we're not here about that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is a positive conversation, and Sarah's got great ideas for how we can change going forward.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, that being said, let me tell you about Sarah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah Gosha, president and CEO of Carol Management Consulting LLC, has over 20 years of healthcare leadership experience.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Based in Lincoln, Nebraska, Sarah's career spans public health roles to senior positions at United Healthcare.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's known for her innovative approach to healthcare operations, integrating AI to enhance clinical and administrative functions.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah, officially welcome and thank you so much for being here to talk about this.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, Kelly.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited that we get to talk about this really important topic.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way the mental health crisis is right now in America, people are going back into the office.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's the perfect time to talk about just how we work together, how we interact with each other, and that it really does matter, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a lot that people feel, and we spend more time at work than we do awake with most of our family, right?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And especially during the week.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really an important topic that we talk about.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so thank you so much for having me today.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're so welcome.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's great.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll just give people more of a background.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah and I met at a networking group and just completely hit it off.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, we need to have a conversation.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we had this great conversation, and part of what came out of it is the way that the workforce is functioning.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we could take it way back and we could talk about like the industrial revolution and the movement and the way that work happens, and then we can take it all the way up to COVID.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And people going home, very little known about how to function in that way and working from their homes.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're now about to enter 2025.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I keep hearing from people in various industries.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we used to be able to do a portion of our work at home, all of our work at home.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're coming back to the office.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the joke is like you're coming back for the work culture.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I want to talk to you about like, how do you define what work culture is?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we can talk about what the good, the bad, the ugly.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think workplace culture is a lot about how everybody interacts with each other.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of kind of the undertone, right, of the workplace.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So not only what you see in meetings, what's talked about, what's sent out in written media, it's more of the undertone, the feeling that you get when you walk into somebody's office, kind of the respect that you get on calls and on video conferences.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are people on time?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are people paying attention?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do people, you know, care what you're talking about?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: When we go back to the office, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're not looking at our phones when people are talking.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's the undertone that's set really by the entire kind of um workforce that's there.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's just leaders and managers.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's all the way up to all the way down and back again, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really more than just kind of a top-down for me.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's really how we treat each other because ultimately you only spend so much time with people above you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you spend more time with people that are out and and kind of around you, your peers and maybe those that you supervise.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's incumbent upon all of us, right, to set the right kind of culture that we want.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that standard will flow up, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with good leadership.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in the end, it's really about just how we all treat each other.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think I can see how that can be a challenge when you know, I'm thinking even just something as simple as uh I was talking to a teacher not too long ago, um, and she was talking about like how you just can't get the kids to engage with you.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like of a certain bracket that that you know, if they were in high school, let's say, and they were receiving instruction in high school and they didn't have to have their cameras on.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe their camera was facing the ceiling.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: There was no monitoring of what was going on on their face or no like back and forth.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we were having this conversation, we weren't actually looking at each other, we might be doing funny things with our faces and not tuned into like what makes somebody feel like you're connected with them in the moment.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, I absolutely agree with you.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things we've a little bit lost in our society, right, is sort of this nuance about having one-on-one conversations or in a group setting, being able to face someone, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're used to being able to say anything anonymously on our phones if we want to, um, especially in a polarizing, right, society we're living in right now, it's really difficult to have those one-on-one conversations.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You really see it um with our younger generations, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: The ability for them to look at you in the eye and really have a conversation.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it then translates over into this workplace.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what some workplaces have done as a way to sort of combat the inability for people to have those conversations is to really do a lot more of kind of this group kind of feeling exercises and kind of we should all feel a certain way, we should all, you know, think a certain way, we should all, you know, kind of act a certain way at work.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact of the matter is we can't all act our perfect selves all the time.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's never going to happen, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think being able to give people grace, right, and say, wow, you weren't your best self, but that's okay.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay that you weren't your best self.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think people that have really high, right, kind of that what they call emotional intelligence is kind of the new buzzword, right?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: You have high emotional intelligence, you know, maybe weren't when you weren't at your best.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there's a strategy behind how you act at work, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are really smart about it and they use it in different ways.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I've been seeing though, and I've seen it, I've talked to people, you know, I've witnessed it, I've, you know, worked with others, is kind of this kind of why I, you know, we put cult in quotations, is that we all have to think and act alike.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really, really dangerous in the workplace.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because we shouldn't all aspire or have goals, but we can meet goals in many different ways, doing many different uh techniques.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I start getting a little bit worried and why we kind of got on this topic and really started talking is it was like, oh, wait a second, you know, as workplaces try to evolve and maybe try to solve for something, I think they're trying to clamp down instead of just letting people be who they are and really working together and doing more team-building activities, taking everyone's input and kind of figuring things out and figuring out what strengths are and maybe things that they're not great at, and really leaning on the tools that we've used from 15, 20 years ago when we use them to really build teams and think about teams, we've kind of gone away from that.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now we should all think the same way.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think um as we're so polarized, it becomes even worse because people really want to pull against that.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, totally.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I don't know about you, but I'm really if I think about the teams that I've worked on, whether regardless of workplace, what has made a team work really well isn't that we all thought the same way.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was that we all had a similar goal, mission, vision, whatever you want to call it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we could hold space for dialogue versus, you know, this is what it should be, this is what it should be.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And for somebody to be the person, you almost want to identify somebody, but please tell us if we're going off track here.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody's got to be the person to say, wait, did we want to do this?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is this what we wanted to say?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, putting on the hat of the like critic, let's let's hold this, see if this holds up if we ask some difficult questions.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I used to tell and still tell people that work for me is you should feel really comfortable in saying, I don't think that's the right way to go, Sarah.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: You are off track, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are way off, or I don't agree with that, or I don't think that's the way we should do it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that I don't still make the same decision, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the safety you can really, really bring to people in saying, you don't have to agree with me.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I might not be right.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You might see things that I cannot see because all of us have blinders on, right?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: We all have blind spots when it comes to work.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course we do.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: We have different experiences, we have different ways we grew up, we have different ways we think about certain problems.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we all put, you know, a Rubik's Cube together differently, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like our brains work very differently.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we should celebrate that and not try to get everybody to think the same, but instead be open to saying, okay, tell me why.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean the decision changes.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think being able to just say that up front to people.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think my best teams, and I have had a lot of them, but some of the best teams I've had are ones that can come to me and say, I don't think, I don't think we're hitting this one.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's the direction we should go in.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to be okay to take that feedback in and listen.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Even if I'm gonna make a different decision, I might know pieces of information they don't know.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think at this point, I think I worry about everybody becoming the same.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's where I get into that cult mentality that makes me really worried for people because when people feel like they have to conform and we're all gonna think the same way, they start to check out.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So burnout rates have gone through the roof, right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's seen it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's tons of research out there, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know people writing books on this right now, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hot topic and it's definitely happening.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of that is because people have started to really, if they don't all think like me, I get scared.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of turnover in the workforce.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Jobs are scarce at times, especially for certain levels.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think the younger generation wants to move up faster than any of us probably ever did, which is great.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Aspire to that, you know, and everything.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I had somebody call me a few weeks ago and say, Hey, would you come talk to our staff about having to work up in multiple jobs?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: That it wasn't you didn't get here overnight, right?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: At 30 years old, you weren't, you know, making this kind of, you know, uh salary and you weren't ready to open your own business and you know, just those things weren't happening.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think people want people like us to go talk to them.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is a little, they kind of want to move up so fast.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's part of why they're clamoring down on kind of this this group, group think.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also very aware, as I'm sure many of us are, at the speed with which we're trying to move, make decisions, shift perspectives and like head running in the other direction.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in those moments, I wonder how do we better slow down, take some time, like you said, like develop that sense of understanding.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see if I understand where you're coming from.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, not necessarily that if if you're challenging my perspective and I'm I'm the manager, CEO, that I'm gonna say, okay, you're right, let's change it, but that everybody's viewpoint gets to be heard.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: But how do we do that when we're trying to move so quickly?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it it feels like a literal race sometimes.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So can we just acknowledge that my lamp just fell out?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that was so strange.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that I either a ghost just walked through, right, and knocked it over, or something we had a little earthquake because it literally came down, and I'm not really sure what happened, but it's Halloween season, so I figured I would just put the hypothesis out there, Kelly, and we'd have a little fun on the show today.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is a mystic nerd squad podcast, so there is that mystical thing.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like something just happened.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Something happened.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, is it one of her dogs?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see a dog there.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, Sarah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: No dog is shut.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is a mystery on Kelly's podcast live right here.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone in the audience.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just take it for what you will, okay?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, back to what we were talking about.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Kelly ghosted with a very in like a very big perspective on this.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe they're inspiring you to answer that question.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: They are, obviously, but it's now tilted.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, okay, this is this is actually perfect for me, Kelly.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it fits my personality basically to a team.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so no, but kind of I think that is part of what I want to challenge the work force to think about and companies to think about what are you running towards?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it a lot of it is I think about all the things that we do at work, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having worked in many different places, now owning my own business, I even find myself running around and it feels like I'm a tornado from you know, I'm from Nebraska.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of running around, and all of a sudden I stop and think, but what am I doing this for?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is going on right now?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realize like some of it's busy work, some of it I think is for us to feel like we have an important spot in this world.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some of it has to do with, and to be honest, I think it's people my age, you know, middle-aged, are I think we maybe had some confidence issues, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I see younger generations, there's zero confidence issues, none.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: The I love the younger generation, my nieces and nephews.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these women, they're like, hey, I am me, I'm amazing, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: They really talk about that.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people in the workforce in our generation do have confidence issues.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not exactly sure what did that um they don't think we had it, especially women, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think women most definitely in business, right, and kind of in roles, no matter where we are, do feel a little bit second best at times.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're working so hard to make ourselves, you know, look as good as we think a male counterpart does, but it's not, it's not about that, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's really that we should what if we take two minutes and think, what am I doing this for?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is the most important thing I'm gonna get out of it?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then how is that meeting the goal that we're trying to meet?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think we would do just as much work, but more thoughtfully.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately, I don't think we stay in, you know, the now and really mindful.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're not mindful, you know, not a lot can get done.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I go back to what I said at the beginning.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think the mental health crisis that we have in America right now, there's a lot of anxiety.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a lot of people go without getting help because there's still a stigma attached to it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: We must end the stigma, we have to do it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: We are at the pinnacle of being able to change the culture around mental health.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do that, I think you will see a more productive workforce.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think companies will not have to do the kind of work that they're having to do to try to solve an issue.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that, you know, I'm still unsure if they're trying to solve a productivity problem or they think everyone should get along, or they have too many HRP.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure um what they're trying to do, but I think we've um got to find a balance there between having a good culture, but also having individuality.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm I'm really worried that they're it's it it's very polarized right now in the workforce.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm I'm glad you brought up the discrepancy between generations because I think that can be a touchy subject and and issue because each generation, like you said, the generation we're we're Gen Xers, so we did not grow up with the same influences conditioning, you know, born in the 70s, we're not like so far into like a lot of the women's movement, and I don't know about you, but if if you go back and watch some of the boobies and the TV shows from the 80s, it's cringe worthy, you know, the way that we talk about women, like the the diversity issues, the um, you know, just the like very non-PC language that I I watch sometimes.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh this I loved this movie, but now I'm a little like I don't I don't know.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're in a different time, and we have younger generations who are so much more body positive, which is amazing, which I love, who are so much more sure of who they are, what they like, and it's it's it's a different approach than I think we were, where it was like still the you should be kind of seen and not heard.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Good girls don't cause problems, like it's a lot of that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that we've got kind of like an intertwining issue here between like workplace culture and also workplace for women culture.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then bring in the layers of different generations.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, we're not all the same.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: What motivates me as an employee might be different than what motivates you.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And but if we haven't taken the time to identify what makes us stronger, what our strengths are, what our challenges are, how we like to work, who we like to work with, and allow for some flexibility.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's the flexibility, it's the time that we take to understand one another.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite things.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: When we get to do things like that at a workplace, we get to really get to know people and celebrate the individuality.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: That when it comes down to something and we're working together, if there's some strife or strain, I'm not like, ugh, this is Sarah who's just annoying to me and I don't understand where she's coming from.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's Sarah who had taken time to understand.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, we can take more time, we can figure this out together.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is like a piece that's missing that was so present 15 years ago for sure.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I even think about things, you know, even 15 years ago where Strength Finders was coming out, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we were coming together and saying, okay, who's really good at analytics and data?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Who's really good at strategy, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And thinking big picture, by the way.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can tell, but I was over here.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I knew what I needed to work on.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've gotten much more data driven.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, to talk about that earlier today with a different group, um, talking about how important data was, when if you would have talked to me 15 years ago, I would have said, I don't care about that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's for somebody else to care about, that's for the analysts to care about.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing, and one of the things that I most tell people is you should be friends with the people that do not think like you.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So when I go into a new workplace or even on my new adventure, I go and find people that do not have the same strengths as me, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: So my very bestest friends, you know, in my last several jobs have all been people in finance and actuary.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is that is not my strength.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: They have to teach me Excel.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: They have to teach me how to use certain formulas.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I befriended them because there were answers I needed really fast.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so they became my friends.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Our personalities were polar opposites from each other.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: People are like, I don't believe you that that's your best friend.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, ask them.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: They will say that is my best friend.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I might have forced them to be my best friend, but regardless, Callie, right?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you go seek people out that think differently than you.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say for people, when you think about workplaces where everyone should kind of, oh, we should all be together, and oh, we should all, you know, really think about that because I'm not sure that's the way to go.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I'm gonna reach outside of people that are like me.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna reach over and talk to people that probably don't have the same beliefs as me and maybe are very different than me, but they bring something that I in my brain cannot function and do.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really challenge people to think about that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was something that people saw me do, my teams, and they thought, oh, weird that she does that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it was strategic, but also they become my very bestest friends, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Outside of work, we began to talk and we had more in common than we thought we did, even though we thought very differently.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I would challenge people that if you see somebody that you think, oh, ooh, they are nothing like me, maybe not, but maybe, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: We don't always give people a chance because we're going so fast.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think for supervisors making the time, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And managers and leaders to be able to say, no, this team needs to get to know each other and really understand each other so that people that work together, right, we don't all have to think the same.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're not doing enough of that still.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um have faith in the, you know, as time continues to go on.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think everything kind of come what comes around goes around and back again.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really hoping as people are talking more about burnout and they're talking more kind of about what we're doing in the workplace, they kind of bring back that stuff that we used, you know, 15 years ago that can really just help us because absolutely I think it worked to the extent it could.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're different now.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're always different now.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have the next generation behind us, right, in our workplace, highly capable, highly driven, like you said, more women in the workplace, right, than we've ever seen before.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a place for all of us to work together.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I would challenge also people to think is we don't want companies telling us how to act and feel and think.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way to stop that is if we can all work together, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have to get a product out of people.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if people can't set aside, you know, their biases and their thoughts, and it's not always about race, right?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, you know, I heard this person, right, came from a poor family.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this person doesn't have a degree from name it, has doesn't have an MBA from Harvard.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: This person doesn't have this, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you start looking around, you say, yeah, but that's okay.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: They might just have different experiences.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think I think really unpacking some of those layers, yeah, and uh yeah really thinking about your own bias is important.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I oh my gosh, I think that's so huge.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even just the acknowledgement that we all have biases, we have them that you can't just be like, I don't.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: We do, you just do.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many things that contribute to that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah, go.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just think that if anyone says they don't have biases out there, they're probably the first one that needs to go figure out what their biases are.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I definitely can name the ones I have and I work on them every day, right?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it is something that if you say I get along with everyone, that's probably not true.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think really sitting with that and really thinking about why do you have it, what has contributed to that, and then what will you do um to try to, you know, overcome those biases are really important.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the first thing is saying you have them.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think not only for you to be able to work more effectively with your teams, but when you have a service, a product, your your clients are all going to be different.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you can learn how to seek first to understand, I think for me, I go back to all the leadership stuff.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that's what I feel so strongly about, those leadership skills, not the management piece, but being truly a leader, and I know that's something that's super important to you too.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are some of the key vital qualities of a leader and especially with today's workforce?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think really to be a really good leader is someone that will do the job no matter what it is.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think I've ever been someone, and in fact, somebody remarked about this the other day.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: I will not ask somebody to do something I will not do.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I will always do it first or show you how, or we can try it together, right?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you have to be a leader that also can do and will do with your people when they need you to help them.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think always, always sitting back and thinking when someone comes to you, okay, this is gonna be a good conversation.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really never try to go into a conversation thinking, oh, I'm so worried about this, or oh, this is gonna be a bad conversation.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: You should always go in thinking, man, this is gonna be the best conversation I've ever had.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're not always gonna be the best conversation you ever had, but I think really, you know, going in and thinking to yourself, you know what, today is gonna be a good day, and these are gonna be productive conversations is really important.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think another good leadership is checking in with your team regularly.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So one-on-ones have been out there forever.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a million books and articles you can read about having an effective one-on-one, but I think it's more than that.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's checking in with people.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: We have teams now, we have all the ways that you can talk to each other, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can type in and pretty much text people at work.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can't even imagine that when I started in the workforce.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we didn't even have cell phones when I started in the workforce.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if that tells you anything.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it's I think it's really, really important, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: That you check in and just say, How's your day?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not wanting anything.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think people now always want something when they get a hold of someone.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like you said, they're going a mile a minute and they're driving, driving, driving.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would ask people how they're doing, right?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: How are your kids?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: How's your house project going?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: How's your flowers looking this year, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing for Halloween?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: All the things, right?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that has to become part of your culture because if you just take those few minutes every day or every other day to check in and just say, hey, I think that builds more.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have to have a courageous conversation or you have to talk about something that's difficult, you've at least had conversations that have nothing to do, right, necessarily with the workplace.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really important skill to have.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other one, and I I've touched on it, is getting your team together and letting them um kind of push back on you because you might not always be right.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know, shocker when you're the leader, um, but you're not, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: You just aren't.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think sometimes the collective wisdom.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I began as a frontline, you know, social worker a long time ago, child welfare worker, you know, we had uh group decision making, right?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Where we really came together as groups and made decisions.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've carried that throughout my entire career, 20 plus years now.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think more brains sometimes are better.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I don't have the luxury.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have to make the decision, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think it's bad to bounce things off people because I think they can see things that you can't, and I think recognizing those blind spots.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing, and I tell everyone this, is have fun.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, we're so serious all the time.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we so serious?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, there's so many things to be funny and and have fun about, and so there's of course times to be serious, of course, but as you saw, I made fun of the lane, you know.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I think it's a ghost, but you know, obviously, like have some fun, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And do just please do not take the fun out of work.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I my several of my teams have had a lot of fun, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let them celebrate, let them do things, you know, together.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get in their way, don't stand in the way of those things because that camaraderie and the ability to really come together and just be people is very important.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And laughter, laughter is the best medicine.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is the best way to bring together.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: They love it when you can kind of poke fun at yourself because the fact is we're not perfect.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think doing a lot more of laughing as a leader.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the farther I got into my career, the more of that we did together.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it had kept my teams even more motivated to work for me.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say, um, for you out there that are being leaders, just have some fun.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: It it's really an easy tool, and uh, it's honestly the one that served me the best.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the having fun, I mean, if you think about how much time you said uh that we spend at work, it's a lot, sometimes more than we even get with our families during the week.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I I love that idea of having fun.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved, I was thinking when you were talking about having um conversations so that when it has to be like a very deep conversation, you've had the time that you've talked to each other.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about not having every interaction have to be transactional.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I need something from you, you need something from me.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: It could just be about how we understand and support one another as human beings who happen to work together, you know, more so, yeah, right.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think that human element and the fun is definitely part of the human element that we all like to have a little bit of fun.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it cuts across everything, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Laughter, and so I think um we could have a little bit more of that and not at the expense of anyone or any group or anything like that, but it's just I think of it as old-fashioned fun, right?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Silly knock-knock jokes.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Take a joke book, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Have your best joke book ready.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think those are things that really worked, even in really large team environments, because the fact of the matter is, we all like to chuckle a little bit at silly stuff.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think being able to poke a little bit of fun at yourself is important.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think doing that helps your team feel like you're just, you know, a human being and not somebody that, like you said, is just coming in to be transactional with them all day.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: So what are a couple things that people need to stop doing that are just pervasive behaviors, choices that are really counterproductive in the long run and certainly not creating a work space that people feel engaged and excited to be part of.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think the first thing, honestly, is not to tell people how to feel about things, right?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um unfortunately, I've seen a lot of circumstances where people say, Oh, but you know, you're supposed to be positive when you're at work, and we have this culture of positivity, or we have this culture of smiling and being happy.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have to stop that, right?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to be happy and smiling at work to be highly productive.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And again, the people we see at work sometimes can be people that really support us.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we have to get away from really thinking.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: We have to clamp down and everybody should smile and look the same when they come to work and we're all robots coming to work.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not AI yet, right?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're not there yet.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And while I love using AI, by the way, let me just put that out there.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you know, we have to be really careful, right, about having everyone have to have the same emotion about the same topic, right?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some people may be really happy about a change and some people might not be.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is okay.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just sometimes they just want that to be acknowledged, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: So stop everybody having to feel the same way and everybody has to smile because you get a lot of fakeness, and then there starts to become those undertones of, oh, I'm gonna go to this meeting and be fake.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you watch any social media out there, reels, I don't have TikTok, but a lot of people do.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of workplace memes out there about, oh, I have to go back to work, and oh, we all have to be happy.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like people know we all can see it, folks.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: The jig's up, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: So let's stop talking about that kind of stuff and all thinking the same way.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing that we really, really have to stop doing um is we have to not have that kind of passive aggressive kind of way that we talk to each other at work, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so unfortunately, I have seen too many times or heard stories or have witnessed this where they don't say what they really mean.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: So again, kind of that fakeness, they put on a smile and they say it like it's in your best interest, but you know it's really cutting the other person.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can't do that anymore.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the mental health crisis is too, it's too real.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um unfortunately, you know, I have seen and heard of people I even know, um, unfortunately, who have, you know, overworkplace stuff have really taken extreme measures.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we just can't do that, right?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Words matter.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um intention matters.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there is a way to be kind and direct and also get your point across without kind of that, I'm gonna act really nice, but behind you, I'm gonna do something else, right?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't do that anymore.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just be be direct and be honest and kind when we're doing it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what I tell people is if somebody's done something that isn't correct, it's best to just go at them and say, listen, I'm not sure what's going on, but this is what I've noticed.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna fix it together?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And really putting it out there that as leaders, we have a stake, right, in making things better unless it's completely egregious.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think we have to do that for each other because the alternative is to really not um really not talk about things, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then um there's consequences on the backside for that.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So those are kind of the things that I think, you know, we have to stop doing.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that last one is super important.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I was thinking to myself too, having those kinds of tough conversations, confronting somebody when they've made a mistake or they've done something wrong and it needs to be corrected.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like if you've never had any coaching or guidance around how to do that, it can feel incredibly uncomfortable.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do leaders set that up for their people so they have a way of addressing those issues and it doesn't become like a human resources nightmare because somebody says something the wrong way in their feedback?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to tell I like to talk about this really ongoing with my teams, right?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Really in team meetings, right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how I'm gonna approach things if I'm not seeing something right, right?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about it, we'll put it on paper, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna be a gotcha.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk through it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have the ability to tell me what's going on.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to be successful, I wanna be successful.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: We can only do that in a mutually, we can't do that in a mutually exclusive relationship, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: The only way to get this done correctly is if we do it together.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you wouldn't have the people working there.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think talking about having difficult conversations ongoing again doesn't make it scary, right?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you because you're already talking about it all the time with them.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, hey, if something happens, this is what we're gonna do, and this is what I'm gonna probably have you do when you come in.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you shouldn't be scared, right?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna come in and we're gonna talk about It and this is what we're gonna do, and we're gonna make an action plan.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think if you talk about it and you don't say, Oh, go read a policy manual, it'll tell you what you do with the discipline.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's a thing.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're much more honest up front and you're really like transparent about that, it's just not something that's scary anymore.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when it does happen, right, and something happens or something goes wrong, it's not scary anymore.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you say, Listen, we've been talking about this in our team meetings.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as you do it exactly how you've set up your stage, that that's how you're gonna address it.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Once it gets there, it's like you deflate all the fear and all the anxiety that they're gonna feel because they know when they come in, you're gonna do what you said, and you do it with one person, Kelly.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: You do it with one person that it happens to, it will permeate the rest of the team because they will say, Well, I made a mistake.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: She brought me in, and everything she said she was gonna do is exactly what she did.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, they're not scared, and then they're not scared, and then all of a sudden they want to work for you, right?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to go to bat and they want to continue to come in and do the work that you're asking them to do because it's not scary anymore.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think the way people hold power is fear, and fear that we have in our heads about what's gonna happen is much more than probably what's really gonna happen.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I try to do is take all fear out of things, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: I also say, I mean, if it's something egregious, this is what's gonna happen, right?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Won't be able to work here anymore and we'll have that conversation.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do it very kindly, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that we never talk about that, but it doesn't seem to happen because I think we talk about it, and so there is no hidden agenda, right?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think people find it a little refreshing when you go ahead and talk about it very openly.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I'd be remiss if I didn't say one more thing around that.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone should have a very clear guide of the behaviors they want to see.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it should not be that you smile in every meeting or even that you're on time.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of that stuff, but I think a lot of it is about the actual behaviors you want to see in people.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a person that exhibits this kind of behavior does these five things ongoing.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to tell people all the time if you want to get a really good score, right?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody gets worried about performance evals, you should nothing should be a surprise at your performance eval, by the way.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: You should know exactly what you're gonna get.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when you go in, right, it's like, am I doing this 50% of the time, right?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Am I doing this?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you really doing it 100% of the time?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are you always doing this?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are some people that can make, right?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: 100% of the time.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very rarely are we all gonna be perfect, right?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not how it is.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think also normalizing that bell curve, right, when it comes to kind of performance e-valves and stuff would really do us well.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think these conversations are things that leaders don't like to have, and that creates kind of that other culture we've been talking about, right?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is because people don't want to have right a conversation.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so they steer clear and then they get to performance review and they say, Well, you're a two out of five, right?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, What?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was a two.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they get all worried and they think they're gonna get fired.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Where otherwise, let's just normalize that a three is getting your job done, right?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, let's just normalize that across all the companies because I think what happens is when everybody's a five, it's hard to strive for anything.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait, we're all the same then.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: That goes back to that kind of you know, culture type mentality.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're all perfect.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're not.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: We are not perfect.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think those things are just I think we can really do wise to think more critically about that as leaders.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that, you know, it doesn't matter what kind of industry you're in.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have to start normalizing that it's okay just to come in and do your job and do it well, right?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you don't have to be perfect to still be part of the team, I guess.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's really important.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And some of us may feel like we always have to be exceptional, but it's very hard to stay at that level, especially in different, I think, of seasons of life, that that it's just not possible.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I was also thinking when you were talking about that, that at your performance evaluation, should it be the first time that you're seeing the things on which you're being measured?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: So how do people communicate what is important as part of the department or the team?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that they're looking for you that will guide you when, you know, not just when you're with everybody together, but when you're off on your own doing your own thing.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know what I am supposed to be doing in this role?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do I know when I'm acting in accordance with the expectations?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those are those behavior metrics, right?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: I will get this kind of rating if I get 30, you know, 7% of the blah blah blah completed, right?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or I have to get 87 completed, or I have to, you know, attend every meeting with, you know, not even a minute late.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever those behaviors are, instead of just saying you have to meet this high-level metric, you have to describe what the actual behaviors are that you want to see.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think behavior science is so lacking when it comes to how people are in the workplace.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: It actually really diffuses any personal stuff, right?
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're just saying, here's the behavior that I have to see out of somebody that gets X.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the behaviors I have to see out of a somebody that gets this.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter who it is, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then everybody's measured on the same behavior.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that as a leader, you need to write it.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have it as an organization, you need to figure, you know, let's get it written.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it diffuses any personal attacks, then, right?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you take your self-evo or other, you take your own eval, or you are giving people evals, you can literally look at the behavior and say, okay, am I seeing this behavior every time?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And can I document when I'm seeing this behavior?
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think we don't do a good job of that.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's all this, it's more of how I feel about the person, or you know, what I'm gonna say when they were having a terrible day, right?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: How many times did I go into a meeting?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Every place I've worked, and anybody watching this that knows me will say this.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I just was not my best self, right?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Happens, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: At work.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can be a little too direct about certain things.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm highly passionate about what I believe in, and sometimes that comes across wrong.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: And as a female, I get a lot of that was a bit much, right?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, you know, knowing that, right, um, people would then say, Well, I don't know if you want her on that team, she's a bit much, right?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because of that interaction, but they weren't seeing the behaviors I was demonstrating every other day.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so one, I had to learn from that, right?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, be careful what you do when lots of people are watching.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's good feedback for me.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: But two, um, I never saw it come out in my performance evals because my studied behavior was something very different, right?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's important, right?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that teams know you can have a bad day.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to have a bad day.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: We all have bad days.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's just how quickly you can bounce back from that and then get right back to the defined behaviors that people want to see.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if they're not defined, how the heck am I supposed to know?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then I'm flopping around in the wind.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hoping I'm like hoping, hoping I'm I'm getting it right.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that can be really detrimental to a team if they don't know what their expectation is, or if the interpretation happens at different levels, and so you have people looking very different and rewarded and addressed on different levels, and then that just breeds a lot of discontent and you know, more divisiveness, like you said, versus helping people feel like they can come together and rally around the same set of values, expectations.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is what we do, and we always, as leaders, are modeling for other people.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we do it.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is the way that we want to behave because we expect you to do the same.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think middle management's the critical layer, right?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's typically not the people way up above that are really kind of the linchpin.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's the people in middle management who, to tell you the truth, we don't do enough development with.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do enough development, we don't help them and equip them with those behaviors, right, that are really defined that we want to see.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we also don't equip them with the training and skills to be able to have those conversations ongoing, know how to talk about it ongoing so that we can normalize it.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so instead, what happens is a whole bunch of, you know, people come in from legal, right?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And HR, and trust me, I have friends in all these departments, but they come together and say, okay, every we have to set a culture for this organization.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're gonna have everybody think and act like this culture.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the extreme version of it.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's the right answer either, right?
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: It comes down to kind of how the teams are structured and those clear behaviors because once you have clear behaviors, you know, then you can talk about them openly altogether and there's no secret, right?
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about who I like or who I don't like or the way this person acted one day, you know, two months ago.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about that, right?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's about your consistent behavior that you're showing.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I really think we have an opportunity now that we can change this um for the better.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I think it will also help ease mental health.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to tell people um all the time, I don't want your mental health to be bad because you are scared of something here.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because that feeling is terrible.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Terrible when you can't sleep, when you feel like you can't eat, when you feel like or you want to overeat, right?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because you just you can't get up and exercise.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do those things because you're so worried about what's gonna happen at work.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: People have to feed their families, right?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, can you imagine if you say it so plainly, and I've said it plainly to other people.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: I need to feed my family, but I have no idea if I'll keep my job today because I don't know what my expect expectations are.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like nobody can live like that.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Think of the anxiety we're creating, right?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we wonder why uh nobody's productive.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's because everybody's so worried.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they're busy doing things, right?
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because it looks like if I'm busy, I'm doing something, and so I won't get in trouble because I don't really know what the behaviors are that I'm supposed to be showing or what I'm supposed to be producing, and so I'll just look really busy.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is then they don't even have time to think about the actions you're taking getting there.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of has a full circle in our conversation that the fact of the matter is we get there because we don't diffuse the fear up front.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just take out of it.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just talk about it openly.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the behaviors I have to see, and you just keep talking about them.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't see the behavior, here's the action I'm gonna take.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you shouldn't be afraid of it because everybody knows what the actions are gonna be and exactly what it's gonna look like.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Down to the point where I would actually tell people, I will set up a meeting, you'll come in, I'll explain, you know, what I've seen, you can talk about what you've seen.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we'll work on a plan.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: Even getting to that granular level so that if we have to have a scheduled meeting like that, you don't have to be scared because you know what's gonna happen in there.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Think of how powerful that is.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: So powerful.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: It diffuses pretty much the fear that you're gonna have when you walk in there because you already know what's gonna happen when you close the door.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about you, but you go into a closed door meeting and you don't know what's gonna happen, especially going back to the office.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of fear, right?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: How many people, and I'm sure lots of people listening are gonna say this, but how many times have you gotten a calendar invite on or hey, can you come over to my office, Kelly?
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, what I do?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why the first thing you think, right?
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: What's wrong?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times nothing's wrong, but you're so scared of it, right?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: What if we just normalize talking about what it could be when you walk in the room?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: If it's something bad and we just normalize it up front.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it never happens, fantastic.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if it does and you're walking in there, you know exactly what's gonna happen.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't that be the day that we could maybe get rid of some of this anxiety we have at work?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am 100% here for that.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have too many friends who are just exhausted by it, and you know, and what you're talking about in terms of mental health, the importance of people being able to go to work and feel good, feel well, and to be able to be the most productive employee that they can be, regardless of what kind of work it is they're doing, you know, that there's such a strong causal link between your productivity and feeling well, you know, your mental health is so important.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I just want to take a minute and can you just share with us if if people are listening and they're just really energized and excited about what you're talking about, what are some ways that they can connect with you to learn more about what you do?
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow my uh Carol Management Consulting page, which is my business account.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me at uh Sarah S-A-R-A Gosha G-O-S-C-H-A.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you can follow me on Instagram.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: You'll see lots of stuff related to what I'm doing out in the world, um, both um on LinkedIn and Instagram.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: So please, please go follow me.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you see articles from me, please go read them, comment on them, reach out to me if you have any questions or burning desire to tell me all your workplace stuff.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to listen to your culture stories.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you need any tips and tricks to maybe work through that, I'm here for that too.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't do a ton of coaching, but um I have done that kind of work and just know that you're not alone.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um together we can make this better.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, Kelly, for having me on and talking about this really important topic.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: We could go on and on, and we will probably have to do another um episode to target some other things.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I appreciate you and thank you for bringing so much candor and thought to the topic.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't that scary for anybody who listened.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: We did we we definitely talked globally, except for okay, that was a little interesting.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've never had that specifically happen, but um, we'll we'll say thank you to the uh ghost for um tilting the light better in your favor, perhaps.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you again, Kelly.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, and thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.