Latest / WriterCon / True Crime Thrills with Sara DiVello

Transcript

True Crime Thrills with Sara DiVello · WriterCon

0:00
This week on the Writer Khon podcast. So I have found it super helpful
0:05
to talk to other writers. So I run an author interview series, and
0:10
though I started when the pandemic descended to help my fellow writers get the word
0:14
out about their books in the wake of canceled in person events, and in
0:17
the past three plus years, I've interviewed probably I think I stopped counting at
0:23
three hundred and fifty interviews. And I like to nerd out about the craft,
0:28
and so I consider that my unofficial MFA. Welcome to Writer Khan,
0:33
a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the writing world.
0:38
Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of The Red
0:41
Sneaker books on writing, and Renee Gutteridge, best selling author of over thirty
0:46
novels and screenplays writers. I'm joined today as usual by our sound engineer,
0:52
Jesse Ulrich and Renee Gutteridge. We are less than one week away from Writer
0:57
Khon. The excitement continue used to build Rene, What are you most excited
1:02
about? Lisa Gardner, manuscript reviews, rescue animals? What is it?
1:08
Food trucks, food trucks that's supposed to be my thing, but you can
1:12
take it. Okay, Oh was that your thing? I'm sorry, Well,
1:15
you know, we all are food. We like food, and so
1:19
it's actually I'm excited about all of it. I mean, if you haven't
1:23
been, folks, it's so fun. And we get more and more excited
1:27
as it comes up because we know that there's a buzz that is sort of
1:34
created and once you get there, you're like, wow, this is as
1:38
big as they said it would be. And it is. And we have
1:41
a lot of new and fun things planned this year. So yeah, well
1:45
we'll get it done. I mean, all that educational stuff is great,
1:49
but well when I got food trucks lined up, I thought, now we
1:53
got a party. We are over the top at this point. Jesse,
1:57
how about you the same question, except you don't need any more animals?
2:00
So that's your favorite port. I mean, I'm honestly looking forward to again.
2:07
There's just an energy about being around creatives. I just love it.
2:10
Like what, it doesn't matter what the creative aspect is. It's just always
2:13
fumming around creatives, doing and doing and talking about creative things. Read all
2:19
right. Our interview today is with Sarah Devello, A true, true,
2:23
crime novelist, and she's also the creator and host of Mystery and Thriller Mavens,
2:30
which is a popular interactive Facebook group and for her monthly Mystery and Thriller
2:36
Mavens Live events. She has interviewed more than three hundred authors, ranging from
2:40
the best selling and world renowned to the buzziest new debuts. Her new book,
2:46
which is based on a true historical unsolved mystery, is called Broadway Butterfly.
2:54
We'll talk to Sarah right after the news segment, Jesse take us away,
3:15
all right. Story number one, Bad news for any of you who
3:19
may be using prose Craft, which is similar to Grammarly or other programs,
3:25
and that it analyzes your submission, your writing and gives your feedback on statistics
3:34
and word usage and passive voice and what you're doing and right and what you're
3:38
doing wrong. Anyway, this one was called prose Craft, and it has
3:42
now been shut down after an author backlash relating to you guessed it artificial intelligence.
3:52
Turns out prose Craft has been using novels without the author's knowledge or consent
4:00
to help power this data driven project to analyze people's writing. Before it was
4:05
shut down. Turns out they had used the full text of over twenty five
4:11
thousand books, all copyrighted material to develop a library of data. But once
4:17
authors found out about this, they were not crazy about the idea. Zach
4:23
Rosenberg was the author who first brought this site to the attention of authors on
4:31
x the site formerly known as Twitter right like squiggly symbol the artist formerly known
4:38
as Prince Anyway. More and more authors started speaking out, and Proscraft did
4:45
admit to using quote AI algorithms and a lot of words from a lot of
4:51
fiction. And now they have shut down the site. Renee, you've spoken
5:00
recently like I'm the last podcast about your storm feelings about authors using AI.
5:05
This program, of course, is not exactly designed to generate writing. It's
5:12
designed to analyze writers work. But I still don't like it. What do
5:16
you think, Well, you know, back in the olden days, when
5:20
people wanted to write, they would actually read these books and learn from them
5:27
by reading them instead of letting an robot teach them in this weird way.
5:32
Yeah, I've never been I've never been a fan of grammarly actually, I
5:36
think you should try to learn that on your own, and so this is
5:42
not going to teach you great pros folks. So I would abandon immediately just
5:47
to respect yourself as a writer and as a writer. Yes, I'm against
5:54
it. Yeah. It kind of reminds me when word processors first came out,
5:58
and any place you with the first question was always do you use a
6:01
word processor? And a few, particularly literary writers wanted to admit it because
6:10
you know, that didn't really fit with being an inspiration writer and you know,
6:16
disturbing the image if you up in some shabby garret working with a quill
6:20
pin or something. But you know these I mean, I'm with you one
6:27
hundred percent. You should learn how to do that, and you learn it
6:30
by doing it and reading those books, as you said, But not I
6:34
think people are always searching for the secret program or machine or if I just
6:39
have this, then I'll break through. And the truth is the only thing
6:43
that'll do that is by spending a lot of time reading and writing. And
6:48
yet we have one of these AI stories every single week, Jesse, I'm
6:53
starting you're you know the Ray Bradbury story where the guy goes back in time
6:58
to shoot dinosaurs, but they steps off the track and kills a butterfly,
7:02
and a few million years later the world is wrecked? Is is that what
7:08
we're on the forefront of right here is a starting now. But so I'm
7:14
going to turn into the terminator or something. Listen, I'll get worried about
7:17
AI when it can accurately spell people's names correctly. So until that time,
7:24
I'm not super worried. All right, you heard it from Jesse, Yeah,
7:29
don't where everyone Just relax, all right, Just like with every other
7:32
technology fad, it eventually will get rules or restrictions or companies realize they can't
7:39
actually make money off it, and then I'll go away and it'll just go
7:42
back to its core use of just coming up with say podcast show notes,
7:46
which is a great AI tool. It saves me a lot of time because
7:49
I'm not a writer what I know, But again, I still have to
7:54
go in and spell everyone's name correctly because it can't do that. It can
7:58
do a good job of figuring out what topics we talk about, it can't
8:01
figure out how to sell those topics or our names. Oh, because it's
8:07
just listening in a ess right and transcribing I got you all right. News
8:11
story number two and this relates to a long simmering rumor and I'll just say
8:18
I was hesitant to put this in the show only because I'm afraid something in
8:22
a new development will be a rise before we can get this out on the
8:26
podcast. But here's the story. According to some sources, the USFTC,
8:31
the Federal Trade Commission, is preparing a lawsuit against Amazon. Now, i'd
8:37
be sure this is just the latest salvo from the FDC, and they've been
8:43
looking at Amazon for a long time. For that matter, they've been focusing
8:46
on challenging a lot of the big tech companies that seem to be completely dominant
8:52
in their arena. Any case like that is going to take years to be
8:56
resolved. But the idea of this lawsuit against Amazon would ultimately be to break
9:03
it up, likely did to Standard Oil one hundred and some years ago,
9:07
break it up into many separate companies. According to Politico and here I'm quoting,
9:13
the complaint is likely to focus on challenges to Amazon Prime rules that the
9:18
FTEC says block lower prices on competing websites, and policies the FTC believes force
9:26
merchants to use Amazon's logistics and advertising services. This would be, of course,
9:33
them like the provision in Amazon k DP that precludes you from giving the
9:41
price of any book you're publishing on Amazon a higher price than it has anywhere
9:46
else. And if Amazon's little bots find out that your book is available anywhere
9:52
else for a lower price, they will immediately change it to match that price.
9:58
Rene you want to see Amazon broken up? Well, I think it's
10:03
not a bad idea, and I take yeah more direct than I expected.
10:09
Yeah, what are we What are we gonna? What are we gonna call
10:13
Amazon? Though, if it's broken up, it can't be Amazon anymore.
10:18
He'll be Amazon publishing, Amazon Movies, Amazon. Well, that's not the
10:22
Amazon. It's like a smaller forest, you know, they were they broke
10:26
up. They'll figure it out. Okay, smaller problems for another day.
10:31
That shouldn't be stopping us from breaking up Amazon. What will we call them?
10:35
Well, yeah, no, I'm just thinking ahead because they're probably gonna
10:37
need a name, So I'm yeah, we're talking out trademarking now by the
10:41
URLs now for everyone, right, Amazon, I'm out of the podcast can
10:46
go no. Bear in mind, the only reason Jeff Bezos chose that name
10:52
is because he wanted something that's symbolized that they carried everything. In other words,
10:56
from age. If you notice the little arrow under the name and the
11:01
logo goes from the A to the Z. So what they would want is
11:07
another word that has an A and a Z in it, wouldn't they true?
11:11
Yeah, amazing or something like amazing Amazonian amusements. Now that doesn't have
11:20
a Z in it. Darn gosh. This is harder than we thought.
11:24
Guys. It's the Internet. You just make an amuse and change the lasts
11:28
to a Z. We've got to get Ai involved in this. So clearly,
11:33
if you Misspella, then you can get a trademark. That's right,
11:37
all right, enough for that, Jesse que up the music. Let's talk
11:41
to Sarah the fellow. He welcome to the podcast. I'm for real to
11:52
d or, thank you so much for having me. Oh, thank you
11:54
for coming. Okay, we have a traditional first question. I say almost
11:58
every time, if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
12:03
it be? So I have found it super helpful to talk to other writers,
12:09
So I run an author interview series and in the I started when the
12:13
pandemic descended to help my fellow writers get the word out about their books in
12:18
the wake of canceled in person events. And in the past three plus years,
12:22
I've interviewed probably I think I stopped counting at three hundred and fifty interviews.
12:28
And I like to nerd out about the craft, and so I consider
12:31
that my unofficial MFA. So I like to say, what have you learned,
12:37
what works, what doesn't work? What have you learned since book one?
12:39
It's a book now, what would you do differently? And then I
12:45
take that and try to implement what I can. I try to end every
12:48
chapter with a question. I try to think about where it feels like it's
12:52
dragging to me. If it's dragging to me, it's dragging to them.
12:56
He goes, I'm fascinated by everything. And then I just keep trying to
13:00
polish, polish, polish, and then until I'm so sick of it that
13:03
I never want to see it again. And then I think maybe I'm getting
13:05
close, and I polished the more. Oh Man, I said, thank
13:09
you for giving me my first opening to mention Ryder Khan or anal writer's conference,
13:15
because we clearly need to get you down next year to talk about Kraft.
13:18
I think you sound pretty heavy on this subject, but we'll get to
13:24
something more immediate, which is your book, which has just been released as
13:30
this podcast comes out, There's Broadway Butterfly. This book, so Brofway Butterfly,
13:37
is a true crime thriller about the murder of a scandalous Flabrary in nineteen
13:43
twenty three New York City and the investigation into that case, which creates ramifications
13:48
that ripple all the way from the gangster or underworld all the way up to
13:52
the White House. It is true, it is wild, it is fascinating,
13:56
it is scandalous, and one hundred years is this year I dove in
14:01
and tried to solve it. Yeah, that's fantastic. I mentioned to you
14:07
earlier that I many years ago wrote a book called Nemesis that involved the still
14:11
unsolved Cleveland Torso murders and Elliott ness and I offered a solution at the end.
14:18
So I know how risky and dangerous it is to go amateur sleuth and
14:24
try and pull something off like this. But judging from all these advanced reviews,
14:30
you did it brilliantly. How much time did you spend researching nine years?
14:37
Web That should be enough. Nine years, seriously, nine years,
14:41
almost a decade of my life. Yes, well, I bet you did
14:46
get it. Right then, Well, I mean, the only thing I
14:50
haven't done is grab a shovel in a flashlight and head up there to dig
14:52
the body up myself. My husband is trying to hold me back. He's
14:58
always like, I'm the guess, he's the breaks. He's always trying to
15:01
keep me out of prison, which I appreciate. But I really want to
15:05
go dig that, exhume the body, scrape into the fingernails, and get
15:09
some DNA. That's the only way I could be more sure. Yeah,
15:11
and I'm not sure that would be even more illuminating than your book. Probably
15:16
already is. I read in the PR materials that they sent me that the
15:20
term sugar daddy, And since we're in barbecue court right now, I'm sure
15:28
everybody's thinking of sugar daddy can which was apparently a real thing that away.
15:35
The term sugar daddy arises from this historical incident, right, Yes, yes,
15:41
So the terms sugar daddy and it's partner in crime sugar baby are in
15:46
our cultural vernacular today because of this case, because of this woman, because
15:52
of this investigation. We use those terms today only because of them, which
15:54
I love. Wow, that is fascinating, isn't it So? Fun.
16:00
So what has the response been to your proposed solution? What have you been
16:04
hearing? So it's been so interesting, you know, Booklists said, I
16:11
give people all give readers everything they need to draw their own conclusions, which
16:15
was my goal because what I love to do when I'm reading mystery is to
16:18
play amateur detective. I'm going to grow up as a Nancy Drew girl.
16:21
I wanted to be that amateur detective, and so I want readers to have
16:25
that same experience. And so I give them all of the evidence and then
16:29
I let them, you know, play sleuth. And most mostly people seem
16:34
to really like it, and a few people want me to be the sleuth
16:38
for them and you know, deliver a complete you know, no no no
16:45
questions, you know, no wondering, just this is who, this is,
16:48
how, this is why. And what's really interesting is it because this
16:52
is a true case. I think we're also used to reading fiction where it
16:57
is, you know, where you can create that kind of certainty where you
17:00
can say, oh, you know, it was Miss Scarlett in the library
17:03
with a candlestick. Real life doesn't work like that, and for me that's
17:07
more fascinating. I like the real part of it, but I think some
17:11
people are, you know, maybe a few readers are adjusting to that idea.
17:18
You mentioned earlier that this is a one hundred year old mystery, and
17:22
I'm curious what drew you to it. But how did you How did you
17:26
first hear about it? So I found out about it in what started out
17:30
as a completely ordinary way, which quickly turned into an extraordinary way. So
17:36
I was home in Philadelphia for Thanksgiving. My poster keeps, keeps threatening to
17:41
fall. She may the butterfly may flutter to the ground. We'll see.
17:45
I was home in Philadelphia for Thanksgiving. And you know, the day after
17:48
Thanksgiving, if you're not going to the Black Friday sales, which my family
17:51
does not because we're not insane, there's not that you know much to do.
17:56
You're sitting around and you're eating your leftover turkey sandwich. You're, you
17:59
know, chatting with the family, you know, And that's what we were
18:02
doing and reminiscing an old story, old family story started to be told,
18:06
and my uncle Ed, who was visiting from DC, started to talk about
18:10
how he and my uncle David after high school back in the sixties, when
18:15
class let out, they used to sneak over to the old castle to sneak
18:18
cigarettes and beers, as apparently you did back in the sixties, and you
18:23
know, and so you know, I'm listening and I'm you know, taking
18:27
this in. And then I was like, wait a minute, what castle?
18:30
Because my aunt lives in a very normal, split level ranch circa nineteen
18:37
fifties suburban neighborhood where every house looks pretty much the same, and so I'm
18:41
looking around for this, you know castle, and my uncle Ed said,
18:45
well, you know, in the next you know, the next suburban development
18:48
over there used to be this grand estate and the ruins are still standing.
18:55
Needless to say, I needed to know more. So we all, eleven
18:57
of us, we jump in three cars. We caravan over and they're in
19:00
the next level ramps, you know, neighborhood. Between the subarus and the
19:06
tulip beds are the remnants of a great estate, fifty foot tall pillars stretching
19:11
skyward to nothing, headless statues of Diana and Zeus, the remnants of a
19:18
of a pool where a fountain used to gurgle, and the and the gurgling
19:22
you know statues are still there, but they don't have their heads. I
19:23
mean, it was so bizarre. And then this is in people's yards,
19:27
so you're, you know, stepping through their yard and they're on the ground
19:30
just hanging outs, laying there is another statue. I mean, it was
19:34
so bizarre. It was such an out of body weird experience that I had
19:40
to learn more about this great estate. So I dove down the rabbit hole,
19:45
you know, because I love I'm a nerd and I love research,
19:48
and I learned everything. I'm just gonna take this down. I learned everything
19:52
that there was to learn about this great estate. You know. It had
19:56
one hundred and forty seven rooms. It was the third largest private home in
19:59
the kind. It was bigger than the White House. It had twenty eight
20:04
bathrooms, twenty four fireplaces, a staff of seventy full time gardeners just to
20:10
maintain the exquisite grounds. I mean, it was like it was known as
20:15
the Versailles of America, and it was, you know, and now it's
20:19
almost completely demolished, and so I was like, well that was really fascinating.
20:22
Anyway, I'm not in the castle writing business, so I left it,
20:26
but I couldn't stop thinking about it because my spidy sense, you know,
20:30
all the hairs in the back of my neck were standing up, and
20:32
they kept saying, there's a story here, there's a story here. And
20:33
so three months later I couldn't shake that feeling. I went back and I
20:38
found a reference in a book from the nineteen fifties, one paragraph, one
20:45
line in one paragraph that referenced, oh, you know, in nineteen twenty
20:48
three, this once great estate was remotely linked to a murder. And I
20:53
just got goosebumps and I said, there it is. That's the story I'm
20:56
meant to tell. I'm hooked. I need to read this now. I
21:02
want to I want to go see the remnants of the two note it was
21:04
right there in that adjacent neighborhood. It was right there, and manage jas
21:08
neighborhood. And I have put pictures of this on my website, Sarah deevelo
21:14
dot com Backslash behind the Scenes. So I actually took videos of walking people
21:18
around this field that you know, where everybody's backyard butts onto it, and
21:26
I say, here's you know, here's the pillars, here's the fountain,
21:30
here's what's left standing, here's and I give little facts about the family,
21:33
and then I have pictures of the family and pictures of all the people because
21:37
they're all real people in the case. So I have all of that on
21:40
my website because I love this stuff. So I want to I want to
21:42
share the joy. I'm going to go dive in. You've got me.
21:47
Let me say, as somebody who visited this morning before the interview, that
21:51
it's really a nice feature on your website with the little mini biographies of the
21:56
key people and the photographs, and it might even meet a good warm up.
22:02
I can't imagine that anybody wouldn't be interested in the book after that.
22:06
And this is rarely do you see a book that has the kind of reviews
22:11
you've had for this book already, and as we're recording this, it's officially
22:17
released yet. But you've got great reviews from publishers Weekly and Kirkus and people
22:22
like Lee Child and our writer Cohn's Sunday keynote speaker Lisa Gardner yasmin Ango,
22:30
who we had a writer Cohn last year. So you've got a lot of
22:34
distinguished praise for this nine year effort. How must that feel. I feel
22:42
so incredibly grateful, humbled and honored. I mean, yasmin Ago is such
22:48
an incredible human. I love her and such a wonderful person in such a
22:53
talleentent writer, So it was so wonderful and kind of her to weigh in
22:56
with praise as well as you know Lisa Pardner and Lee Child. I've had
23:00
the pleasure of interviewing Lee a couple times, and he is hilarious. That
23:04
guy drinks thirty five cups of coffee a day. His brother drinks thirty eight.
23:11
I was like, I would be shaking, like you know, a
23:14
leaf if I drank three cups of coffee a day. But to have the
23:18
support of the community of these incredibly distinguished writers who I admire, whose work
23:23
I have devoured and enjoyed and felt nourished by, entertained by. To have
23:29
them acknowledged me and welcome me and lend me their support through their words,
23:34
it means everything. I'm so grateful. I shouldn't even mention this, but
23:40
when you're at it, t w know. At Thriller Fest, I sat
23:44
in the bar and talked with Lee Child for well over an hour before I
23:48
even realized who he was. I'm just having a nice chat with this guy
23:53
with the kind of British accident and at some point he mentioned Jack Reacher and
23:57
I thought, oh, la, smokes, he's so great. He's so
24:03
great. I love him. Yeah, and he's extremely entertaining. I love
24:10
right. Yeah. I used to be on the board of IW but you're
24:15
now their social media director or something like that. Is that correct? Yes,
24:18
I serve as the director of social Media Strategy for I TW I've been
24:22
in that role for almost one year and it's such an incredible organization and I
24:30
love to be part of it. Fantastic. So you also teach yoga and
24:37
you you enjoy gardening. I am an Irbing Yes, so I teach yoga.
24:41
I just actually just taught yoga this morning. I teach on zoom.
24:45
Now. I haven't gone back to in person since the pandemic and was really
24:49
cut down on my commute time. Oh that's great. Yeah, And I
24:53
am an Irbing gardener. So we have a little porch and I grow herbs,
24:59
pepper, tomatoes, flowers. I have an urban oasis i've and I
25:06
do quite It's a small space, but I'm quite productive. I froze nine
25:10
pounds of pesto last year for my basil. Oh, so that we can
25:14
just enjoy pesto throughout the winter. Do you think that those things kind of
25:18
help inform your writing? Do they detract from it? How does that all
25:22
fit in? Thank you so much for asking. So I feel like they
25:27
both help in separate ways. So because writing takes at least me a very
25:33
long time. This one took me nine years. That's delayed gratification. Right,
25:37
So you're working, I'm working, working, working, you know,
25:41
unearthing research takes a very long time. So I might work for weeks to
25:45
get one little nugget and maybe I don't get the nugget, but maybe I
25:48
do, and then I want to get that next nugget because it's very very
25:52
addictive. But so, you know, and then you're writing, and then
25:56
you're editing, and then you're editing again, and then you're going through you
25:57
know, this very long pipe line of the process, you know, and
26:02
that's after you get the book deal. And then to get to the book
26:04
deal is a very long process. So what I like is the immediacy of
26:10
gardening. I dig the whole, I put the seedling, I covered up,
26:14
and the next day I can see my plant. Or you know,
26:15
you plant a seed and a couple, you know, a couple of weeks
26:18
later you have a little baby plan and then you have you know, a
26:22
bud, and then you have a flower, and then you have a pepper,
26:23
and then you have dinner, you know, And it's so gratifying because
26:27
you get to see and feel and taste and touch the fruits of your labor
26:33
literally or the veggies of your labor right right away, Whereas you know,
26:37
there's such a long process to you know, I mean, I literally started
26:41
this book nine years ago. I've been waiting a long time to hold the
26:45
fruit of this labor. So I like, I need that, you know,
26:49
while I'm waiting for my book. Yoga helps me because the I don't
26:53
have to tell you guys that the path to publication is rocky, uncertain and
27:00
anxiety adducing. You have no idea if you'll get a book deal. You
27:03
have no idea if what you know what you're going to get for that book
27:07
deal. You have no idea if you get the agent, and if you
27:11
get the book deal, and if you get a good deal, if readers
27:12
will like it and it will do well, you just don't know. And
27:15
that can really start to be very anxiety inducing for someone who's prone to anxiety.
27:21
Hello and So the tools of yoga, which helped me to ground and
27:26
center and stay present and to stay focused on my intention, which is to
27:30
tell the story, are very helpful as I navigate the winding, often stressful
27:37
path to publication. Well, let me just cut in and ask, because
27:42
I'm just curious, what do people have to do to join your yoga classes
27:48
that open to the public or is there a URL or something. It's on
27:52
my website and it is open to the public. Yes, sir, great,
27:55
Okay, I'm sorry, We're go look into that too. No,
27:57
that was a great question. I'm glad that you asked that one. So
28:03
I teach a very slow, very gentle, very meditative practice, and it's
28:07
not athletic at all. We may spend the whole class lying down. That's
28:11
my favor, and just so much the practice of breathing and being and slowing
28:18
down because we all know how to go fast, right, we all know
28:22
how to go that. I run in fifth year all the time, but
28:26
it's very hard to write and to write well when you're in fifth year and
28:30
things are just flying by. So what we have to do is teach ourselves
28:34
that first gear and the tools to be present and to channel the story and
28:41
tell the story. I think this is probably why I always like to write
28:45
best in the bathtub, because that's how I bring myself down and separate from
28:52
the rest of the world. That's that's how I relax and can focus.
28:56
So it's not it's not really can do use of to everyday behavior though,
29:02
got I learned to write outside the tub too, So I like these things
29:06
that you're mentioning, La, thing that you can say I did this while
29:11
the overarc is still in progress and then find a way to relax and decompress.
29:18
I love those Laura's forthcoming book writing outside the tub. Yes, but
29:23
no, that's why I like to cook for the same reason I like to
29:29
garden. Because I start the dinner. I got a pile of ingredients and
29:32
an now you know, half an hour. I can cook a beautiful dinner
29:34
in half an hour or an hour from doing something more elaborate. I have
29:38
this beautiful plate, and it's so gratifying to hold it and eat it and
29:45
feed others. Whereas, like the book, you could be waiting for literally
29:48
for years. They think to this really interesting. Laura is my next door
29:52
neighbor in the apartment building two doors down and she's moved suside. But anyway,
29:57
she teaches creativity at Harvard Business the School, and she said that the
30:00
three places that people get their best ideas are the baaff, driving or when
30:07
you're about to haul asleep. And the reason that is is because your brain
30:12
is relaxed and you're able to generate creative thinking in the same way that Einstein's
30:18
best ideas came when he was a filing clerk in the patent office because his
30:22
brain was his. She can explain about her than I could, but basically,
30:26
his you know, his busy brain was focused on the boring, repetitive,
30:30
soothing motion of filing the patents, and so the is it the reptilian
30:36
part of his brain, I can't remember ransa, But basically the creative part
30:38
of his brain was then able to generate his best ideas. So she said,
30:41
you should keep a notebook, you know, beside the bathtub, beside
30:45
your bed, and a voice you know, dictate option in the car,
30:49
because that is the three times that people have their best ideas. That is
30:53
brilliant and fascinating and it kind of confirms things that I've noticed that there's this
30:59
is true and real. Yes, this is true, and this is real,
31:03
and this is taught at Harvard Business Goals. So there you got.
31:07
I'm so much today. This is wonderful. So tell us what is your
31:10
writing process like? So my writing process is too. So first I research,
31:17
and then I cue all that up, and then I start to write
31:22
my draft and I try really hard not to censor myself. I try to
31:26
follow the an LaMotte, you know, write a crappy first draft and not
31:33
let my editor brain get involved and say you suck. You know, this
31:37
is terrible, I'm embarrassed for you. I try to, you know,
31:41
just say I'm writing a messy first draft and just get it all out on
31:45
the page. This is not easy because at first it's very hard to get
31:48
into that creative, pure creator, no judgment mindset. But then I get
31:52
into it and I just pour it out on the page. And a lot
31:55
of people say that they don't like looking at a blank page. I love
31:59
a blank page. I love to see that inviting blank whiteness for me to
32:04
fill and create. However I wish I find it invigorating, stimulating, exciting.
32:10
I love it. So then I am just you know, pouring it
32:14
all on the page and then I, to my surprise, I ended up
32:16
having to continue to research while I was writing, because I would because my
32:21
book is historical, you know, it's one hundred years old. I would
32:24
have to say, you know, Julia zipter coat. Oh crap, do
32:28
they have zippers in nineteen twenty three? Okay, and I'll just say she
32:30
fastened her coat, you know, she she she did it up, you
32:34
know, if you're a research trip, yeah, exactly. I just saved
32:37
myself nine hours. But there's only so many times you can gloss over before
32:42
it just becomes a little too. It's those enriching details which make make it,
32:46
which make it good, you know, Like it took me a day
32:50
and a half, probably fifteen hours to find out how much daycare cost in
32:55
nineteen twenty three. Oh wow, it cost a nickel a day. So
33:00
that is not in keeping with the usual seventeen x rate of inflation that the
33:04
Bureau of Labor Statistics has averaged it out nineteen twenty three, twenty twenty three.
33:08
But that matters, or something like that matters, because when you're reading
33:15
and you're a nerd who loves to learn and and and and and you know,
33:19
it feels fed by that by the nourishment of knowledge, those little details
33:22
feel very you know, feel tasty, and so it's I wanted to spend
33:29
the time to get those, not that particular one, although I did spend
33:32
time on that particular one, but things like it. So then I ended
33:37
up in the revision also spending time on more research because I had to find
33:43
those little details which I wouldn't have had to find if I was writing a
33:46
book that took place today, because I'd already know how much stuff costs.
33:51
Actually that do you write? So during the day do you do you have
33:55
a set time that you like to sit and write or what's your day to
34:00
day, like just getting the pages knocked out? How does that look for
34:04
you? So I'm a night o'l. When the moon comes up, come
34:06
up, I come alive. I'm like a werewolf fist bump over the zoom.
34:12
Yeah, I'm also a night ol. Well, yeah, seiler,
34:15
I knew that. We were like bath this, we like gardening, we
34:16
like cooking, we like eating. We're night ols. Yeah. So I
34:22
usually spend the earlier part of the day doing the administration of the household,
34:27
right like I am answering emails, get you know, replying, setting up
34:31
interviews or you know, arranging to interview professors or who you know. I
34:37
went to a lot of subject matter experts chasing down who is that expert in
34:43
trying to get on their calendar, you know, doing that research whatever.
34:46
So first I'm doing the administrative stuff, then I'm doing the research. Then
34:50
I am, you know, knocking out the pages. But the writing flows
34:54
most easily for me at night, and so does the editing. Actually,
34:59
because and I have removed the husky to do list from my brain, I
35:06
feel I have the space to create. I have the freedom to create because
35:10
I'm not like, oh did I send that email? Oh don't forget to
35:14
call you know, Susie or whoever agreed. Yeah, I think our brains
35:17
work pretty similarly. And what I really like about this is I occasionally have
35:22
people who approach me quietly and embarrassedly say I keep hearing from everyone that they
35:28
get up at five am and start writing then, and they will say,
35:30
I just I guess I can't do it because I can't write at five am.
35:34
And I tell them you need to do what works for you. People
35:37
who write best at five am should make that their writing time. But if
35:42
you don't don't beat your head against the wall trying to do something that doesn't
35:45
work for you. Laura, I am so glad you said that, because
35:49
before I had written this book, I went to a book festival and a
35:57
writer who I very greatly admired and still admired. Someone in the audience asked
36:01
her, you know, how do you write? What's the best way?
36:05
And she said, in no uncertain terms, I you have to look at
36:08
this like a job. And if you wanted other people to take your you
36:12
seriously, you have to take you seriously. So you got to get up,
36:15
you got to get dressed for the day, like dressed for a job.
36:17
And she said, you I keep bankers hours, That's what she said.
36:21
She said, I'm at my desk at seven pm and I don't leave
36:22
until five pm. And I felt bad about that for years because I thought,
36:29
well, here's this writer who I so greatly admire, and she was
36:31
so definite about what was the right way to write right and what was her
36:37
way, and so I thought, well, I must not be, you
36:40
know, a real writer, or I must not be doing it right or
36:43
whatever, and only to then finally just said, you know what, this
36:47
is me I'm going to be me because I'm you know, I'm forty five.
36:51
I'm turning forty six in a week. I'm going to do. I
36:53
feel more confident in my skin, and I feel free to be me.
36:58
I feel safe to be who I am, And only to then have her
37:01
post a couple of weeks ago, this new book you know is taking me,
37:06
has taken me over. And I just write when the spirit moves me,
37:08
and I just do what I need to do, and I write at
37:10
night, and I write at midnight. I write at nine pm. And
37:14
I was like, oh, so things have even now. Some of us
37:17
are messy creatives. I just had to I just had to acknowledge that some
37:22
of us are just very messy creatives and some of us we just have to
37:25
do what we can do. But I do agree with taking it seriously and
37:29
making it a priority. I just I tell people, just don't just don't
37:32
say, okay, we can write whenever, but then never write. You
37:36
can take it seriously and write at nights. That's the thing. As long
37:39
as you're getting your work done, you're getting your words downe you're getting that
37:43
page count keeps increasing. That is taking it seriously. But trying to adhere
37:46
to someone else's schedule just doesn't work. Because, you know what, for
37:50
my fortieth birthday, my sister gave me the twenty three in me and I
37:52
did you know? I swallowed my cheek. I sent it in whatever.
37:54
Yes, I guess what. My genetic tess said. You're a night person.
37:59
And it's true. I've been a night versus I was eight years old.
38:01
I was a kid who couldn't who couldn't sleep. You know, I
38:05
am a night It's literally genetics. My husband gets up at five am without
38:08
an alarm. That's his that's his genetic maker. You can't change who you
38:14
are genetically, and that's okay. Just be you do what works, but
38:17
take it seriously, love it well. This has been a fascinating interview,
38:22
Sarah. I really appreciate you coming on. Best of luck with this nine
38:28
year journey that has culminated in a Broadway Butterfly. I think you're going to
38:34
have a big hit on your hands. Oh, thank you so much,
38:36
William, I really appreciate that. That's so lovely. Of course, Well,
38:39
thanks again, hope to see you again soon. Thanks guys, thanks
38:43
for having me on. This is the last podcast before Ryder con so this
38:52
maybe this will be the last time this year you will hear me say that.
38:58
It is not too late to register for Writer KHN September one through four
39:01
in Oklahoma City. And it is certainly not too late to come to Reader
39:06
Khan on Monday, September fourth, free and open to the public. We
39:10
have so much fun in store for you and so many great authors and books
39:15
and autographs. Come join the fun, all right, all right, then,
39:22
until next time, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail if you
39:28
refuse to quit. See you next time.