Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: S1E86 An Interview with Jasz Joseph and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: S1E86 An Interview with Jasz Joseph and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

• 0:16
  Welcome back to Networking Unleashed, Building
• 0:19
  Profitable Connections, the podcast where we
• 0:23
  unpack the real strategies that turn handshakes
• 0:26
  into opportunity and conversations into clients.
• 0:30
  I'm your host, Michael Forman, and today's episode
• 0:33
  is all about one of the most powerful and often
• 0:37
  misunderstood business growth tools, referrals.
• 0:41
  In the word sales, If the word sales makes you
• 0:46
  want to hide behind your LinkedIn profile, you're
• 0:49
  going to love today's guest. She's built a thriving
• 0:52
  referral -driven business without cold pitching,
• 0:56
  high -pressure tactics, or awkward coffee meetings
• 1:00
  that go nowhere. We're talking about how to earn
• 1:04
  referrals by building trust, delivering value,
• 1:08
  and showing up the right way. So if you're ready
• 1:11
  to grow your business by building relationships
• 1:14
  instead of chasing leads, this one's for you.
• 1:17
  Let's dive in. I want to tell you, my guest today,
• 1:21
  this is all proven technology, right? And this
• 1:25
  is what I talk about all the time. When I go
• 1:29
  into businesses, workshops, it's all about referrals.
• 1:33
  So Jazz, Jazz Joseph, I want to welcome you to
• 1:38
  the podcast. Why don't you introduce yourself
• 1:41
  and give us a little bit about your background?
• 1:43
  Thank you. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.
• 1:46
  So I spent my career working for big marketing
• 1:50
  agencies, specifically HubSpot, Platinum, Diamond
• 1:54
  partner agencies. And then I started my own business
• 1:58
  about four and a half years ago in January of
• 2:01
  2021. And that business has ebbed and flowed
• 2:06
  in a few different directions over the years.
• 2:08
  Whenever we originally started, we were an agency
• 2:12
  for agencies. So I always used to say working
• 2:14
  in the agency world for years, the shoemaker's
• 2:17
  kids never have shoes. And agency owners spend
• 2:20
  so much time building their clients' businesses
• 2:22
  that they rarely have the time, energy, focus
• 2:25
  to work on their own business. Then in the past
• 2:28
  few years, The market has shifted quite a bit
• 2:31
  with the rise of AI and the decrease of organic
• 2:35
  reach. And so we really started to hone in more
• 2:39
  on sales enablement and sales support. Whenever
• 2:42
  I think about marketing, I always think about
• 2:45
  marketing through a sales and marketing alignment
• 2:48
  lens. I'm very ROI driven. I love to talk numbers,
• 2:52
  revenue with my clients. And so we really have
• 2:56
  morphed into more of a sales enablement agency.
• 3:00
  And now we support businesses of all sizes, aligning
• 3:03
  their sales and marketing, making sure that they
• 3:05
  have full visibility. We are still a HubSpot
• 3:08
  partner agency. So we lean heavily into CRMs
• 3:12
  and tracking. everyone in your CRM, which I know
• 3:15
  we're going to be talking about today, not just
• 3:16
  customers, but also referral partners and networking
• 3:20
  opportunities and everybody that you should be
• 3:23
  keeping in touch with as a business owner. This
• 3:26
  all sounds fantastic because it's right in line
• 3:30
  with what I talk about. So I'm very excited for
• 3:32
  this podcast. Okay, let's dive right into it.
• 3:36
  You've built a referral -driven business without
• 3:39
  leaning on traditional sales tactics. What was
• 3:42
  the turning point that led you down that path?
• 3:46
  Yeah, it's a great question. And one of the reasons
• 3:50
  that I started my own business is because I really
• 3:53
  wanted to be human -centric, right? And so I
• 3:57
  worked in client services for years, account
• 3:59
  management, and I was running these accounts
• 4:02
  at these agencies. And I hated the sales piece
• 4:05
  of that job in the sense that I hated to always
• 4:08
  be nickel and diming my clients, right? Asking
• 4:11
  for more, more, more. Oh, you want to do this
• 4:13
  thing? Actually, it's going to be an additional
• 4:15
  cost. And so when I built my own business, I
• 4:18
  wanted to be really intentional about doing it
• 4:21
  in a way that felt aligned with me and not always
• 4:24
  nickel and diming my clients, but figuring out
• 4:27
  a model that allowed me to really be a fractional
• 4:30
  member of their team and embed. and build those
• 4:34
  strong relationships with them. And so naturally,
• 4:37
  whenever you build a business in that way, referrals
• 4:40
  start to come in. And a lot of what I did in
• 4:44
  the early days of my business and still do today
• 4:47
  was networking. So finding out those groups where
• 4:51
  my target audience would hang out. So whenever
• 4:54
  I was really focused on agency owners, I was
• 4:57
  trying to figure out where are agency owners
• 4:59
  hanging out? What events are they going to? Where
• 5:02
  are they hanging out online? What Slack groups?
• 5:05
  What Facebook group? The list goes on. And then
• 5:09
  down the road, I actually started hosting my
• 5:12
  own events. So I started being that point of
• 5:15
  contact for agency owners to gather and network
• 5:17
  and collaborate. And so that was another great
• 5:21
  way to just continue to boost that referral business.
• 5:24
  That's so you hit on so many points that I don't
• 5:29
  have time to comment on all of them. But it sounds
• 5:34
  like you're going down the right path because
• 5:37
  I am a firm believer that networking is the base
• 5:40
  of all businesses. And if you do it correctly,
• 5:44
  but if you follow up correctly, not just meeting
• 5:48
  the people, but if you follow up correctly, you'll
• 5:51
  have huge success. OK, so. Why do you think so
• 5:55
  many entrepreneurs struggle with asking for referrals
• 5:59
  and how can they make it feel more natural? Yeah,
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  it's a great question. I think part of it is
• 6:08
  as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, we spend
• 6:11
  all day every day thinking about our business,
• 6:14
  right? Like your business is your baby. You're
• 6:16
  constantly thinking about it. But you have to
• 6:19
  remember that no one else is thinking about your
• 6:22
  business nearly as much as you are. And so a
• 6:25
  big piece of networking, getting referral business
• 6:28
  is staying top of mind. And I think that can
• 6:32
  be really challenging for a lot of business owners
• 6:34
  because they think to themselves, I already talked
• 6:37
  about my service or I already launched this new
• 6:39
  project or whatever it is for you, right? But
• 6:43
  the truth of the matter is we're all being bombarded
• 6:46
  with information just 24 -7. And people are not
• 6:50
  going to remember what you do unless you have
• 6:54
  a really strong strategy in place to stay top
• 6:57
  of mind with them. So that can mean different
• 6:59
  things for different businesses. Sometimes that
• 7:02
  is picking up the phone and just saying, hey,
• 7:04
  we haven't touched base in a while. I would love
• 7:07
  to hear what you're up to. I would love to share
• 7:08
  what I'm up to. Sometimes that can be more traditional
• 7:11
  marketing channels like email marketing or like
• 7:14
  LinkedIn or Instagram or TikTok, depending on
• 7:18
  your business model. But at the end of the day,
• 7:22
  I think that is a huge mindset shift is. remembering
• 7:25
  that nobody's thinking about your business as
• 7:28
  much as you are. And so it's really important
• 7:30
  that you're staying top of mind and you're regularly
• 7:33
  talking about yourself, not in a salesy way,
• 7:36
  but in a friendly like, hey, reminder, I'm here.
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  I'm doing cool stuff. This is what my world looks
• 7:42
  like. Because then when people have a problem,
• 7:45
  you're already top of mind and it's very easy
• 7:48
  for them to. either raise their hand and say,
• 7:51
  hey, I'm ready to work with you or refer somebody
• 7:53
  else and say, hey, if you have this problem,
• 7:56
  here's the person you need to talk to. I agree
• 8:00
  with that all 100%. The only thing that I would
• 8:03
  add to it is when you talk to somebody through
• 8:07
  LinkedIn, through an email, something, you have
• 8:09
  to bring value to that conversation. So if you
• 8:13
  had an article or something, say, hey, look,
• 8:15
  I just read this and I thought you might be interested.
• 8:19
  Have at it, you know, that type of thing. Yeah,
• 8:20
  yeah. That will help them keep you top of mind.
• 8:23
  Say, look, you know what? She really, what I
• 8:26
  do, and she really is thinking about my business.
• 8:30
  So here you are thinking, because as you said,
• 8:33
  we think about our business a whole lot more
• 8:35
  than everybody else. But now you're giving a
• 8:38
  little inside track to say, look, she's thinking
• 8:41
  about my business too. I'm going to remember
• 8:44
  her. So that's a little something. No, that's
• 8:47
  a great call out. Thank you. So what's the difference
• 8:50
  between earning a referral and asking for one?
• 8:54
  And why does that distinction matter? Yeah, it's
• 8:59
  a great question. So I think there is room for
• 9:03
  both, admittedly. So earning a referral happens
• 9:06
  when you are not asking for a referral, but instead,
• 9:10
  like I mentioned, you're staying top of mind
• 9:13
  and people are immediately thinking of you. So
• 9:16
  when a problem arises, somebody says, hey, I
• 9:18
  need HubSpot help. All of the people in my network
• 9:21
  are going, you have to talk to Jazz. Jazz is
• 9:24
  the person to talk to. So that's earning a referral.
• 9:26
  And asking for a referral, I think is okay in
• 9:30
  certain situations, right? We never want to be
• 9:33
  the person who's knocking on everyone's door
• 9:35
  saying, give me business. But I think there are
• 9:37
  appropriate times. For example, whenever you're
• 9:40
  having a catch up or a coffee chat with someone.
• 9:43
  If you can, to your point, Michael, lead with
• 9:45
  value and say, how can I support you? How can
• 9:48
  I help you in your business? Listen, wait for
• 9:52
  their response. See if you can jump in to help.
• 9:55
  And then nine times out of 10, they're going
• 9:58
  to ask you the same question, right? They're
• 10:00
  going to say, how can I support you? And you
• 10:02
  can say, here's what I'm looking for. I have
• 10:05
  some spots open right now. I'm accepting new
• 10:07
  clients. Here's what an ideal client looks like
• 10:10
  for me. Do you know anyone? And when you're leading
• 10:14
  with value and you're also just leading with
• 10:17
  that genuine human, authentic connection, right?
• 10:20
  We're not leading as a salesperson, but we genuinely
• 10:23
  want to help the other person. It makes it a
• 10:26
  lot easier for them to feel comfortable than
• 10:29
  giving you that referral and knowing, okay, if
• 10:33
  I pass this person over to Jazz. Jazz is not
• 10:35
  going to be a sleazy salesperson and immediately
• 10:38
  get on the phone and try and start selling to
• 10:41
  that. She's going to be a genuine human. And
• 10:43
  she's going to say, hey, tell me about you. Tell
• 10:46
  me about your business. Let's chit chat. Let's
• 10:48
  get to know each other. Oh, by the way, I think
• 10:50
  you may be a fit for what I offer. Are you interested?
• 10:53
  Right? That's a very different approach. Absolutely.
• 10:56
  Because we have to go in with the mindset that
• 10:58
  we're a problem solver. Right. They'll have a
• 11:02
  problem and we can solve it. So I say almost
• 11:05
  exactly what you said, but I put a little twist
• 11:07
  on it. I listen to them called active listening.
• 11:11
  I listen to them. I respond to them and I say,
• 11:15
  you know something? I like you. I like how you
• 11:18
  do business. I like what you do. How can I make
• 11:22
  you more successful? How can I be a good referral
• 11:26
  source for you? And so that usually. Blows them
• 11:30
  away. Michael, I don't even know what you do
• 11:32
  yet. Why are you doing this? But that's what's
• 11:35
  going with a giving, not receiving. Going in
• 11:38
  with a servant's heart. You know, saying, look,
• 11:40
  how can I help this person without even them
• 11:44
  knowing what I do? And soon enough, what goes
• 11:48
  around comes around. Okay. Can you walk us through
• 11:53
  what a referral -worthy experience looks like
• 11:56
  in your business model? Yeah, absolutely. It's
• 12:01
  a great question. So my business model is very
• 12:04
  human centric, right? I do consulting. And so
• 12:09
  I'm in the weeds with my clients, right? I'm
• 12:12
  digging into their sales process. I'm meeting
• 12:14
  their team. I'm doing training. I'm deeply understanding
• 12:18
  their revenue goals. And so they have to be able
• 12:22
  to trust me. And that in the same way that I
• 12:26
  lead that way with my clients, I lead that way
• 12:28
  with referral partners. To me, it's all about
• 12:31
  trust. I don't sell a product, right? Click and
• 12:35
  purchase. That's a completely different sales
• 12:37
  cycle. But in the consulting world, it's so human
• 12:41
  driven. It's so connection driven. It's so trust
• 12:44
  driven that however you operate in your sales
• 12:48
  process with prospects, that should depend on
• 12:50
  how you operate with referral partners. And so
• 12:54
  I often lead by sharing the pain points that
• 12:59
  I address. And I think that is something that's
• 13:02
  really important that a lot of people skip out
• 13:04
  on, as opposed to leading with what you do, right?
• 13:08
  I do HubSpot consulting. I come in, I help you
• 13:11
  fix your HubSpot. I don't lead with that. I lead
• 13:15
  with, here are the pain points that my target
• 13:18
  audience is experiencing that I come in and solve
• 13:21
  for them. Because it's much easier for a referral
• 13:24
  partner to identify those pain points than it
• 13:28
  is for them to identify a person who needs the
• 13:32
  service that you offer, right? We all have fancy
• 13:34
  names for our consulting businesses now, right?
• 13:37
  I do operations or I do backend development,
• 13:41
  blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Most of the time.
• 13:43
  We don't really know what those things mean,
• 13:45
  let's be honest. But we do understand pain points.
• 13:49
  So if you say, I help people whose websites are
• 13:53
  not converting. I help people whose sales and
• 13:55
  marketing teams are arguing with each other.
• 13:58
  I help leaders who need more visibility into
• 14:01
  what their sales team is doing and if they're
• 14:04
  selling. I help marketing leaders determine which
• 14:06
  of their campaigns are driving the strongest
• 14:09
  ROI. Oh, now I can identify. I know people who
• 14:14
  fit that bill. I know people who are struggling
• 14:16
  with that, or I can be out in the world listening
• 14:19
  for people who are struggling with those problems.
• 14:22
  Very good. Very good. And that's a very good
• 14:25
  distinction that it definitely keeps you grounded.
• 14:30
  It keeps you in it so that your client always
• 14:35
  will think of you. without even thinking of you.
• 14:39
  They have a problem, go, oh, I have to go to
• 14:41
  JS for that. Or I can give JS a call and it's
• 14:44
  not going to cost me anything, but to just give
• 14:46
  me some advice. So that's the kind of consulting
• 14:49
  that we all look for. How do you keep yourself
• 14:52
  top of mind in your network without sounding
• 14:55
  like you're constantly promoting something? Yeah,
• 14:59
  great question. So I think that it's twofold.
• 15:04
  One is being super passionate about what you
• 15:08
  do. And I think when you're super passionate,
• 15:10
  that passion just shines through. And going hand
• 15:13
  in hand with that is storytelling. So I really
• 15:17
  challenge myself at the end of every day to look
• 15:21
  at my calendar and think about what did I do
• 15:24
  today that feels like a good story that I can
• 15:28
  use to stay top of mind. So for example, if I
• 15:31
  had a client call, and they came to me with a
• 15:34
  very specific problem. That's a story that I
• 15:37
  can then tell via a LinkedIn post, via an email
• 15:41
  newsletter, in a networking call that I have
• 15:43
  next week, whatever it is, that doesn't make
• 15:47
  me sound salesy, right? Because I'm not leading
• 15:49
  with, hey, let me tell you about the services
• 15:51
  I offer. But instead, I'm telling a story like,
• 15:54
  hey, listen to how interesting this is. A client
• 15:56
  came to me, they had XYZ problem. And at first,
• 16:00
  we thought maybe we should do this, but then
• 16:02
  we tried it out and it didn't work. And here's
• 16:05
  what actually worked for them. And here's how
• 16:07
  it moved the needle. And here's the results that
• 16:09
  they saw. And that's a really tangible story
• 16:12
  that allows my passion to bleed through, that
• 16:15
  allows you to understand the problem and the
• 16:17
  solution without me explicitly saying, hey, if
• 16:21
  you know somebody with this problem, please send
• 16:23
  them to me because I would love to work with
• 16:25
  them. That's absolutely the best way to do it
• 16:29
  because I know when I go on stages and I talk
• 16:33
  in workshops, stories resonate with people. People
• 16:38
  will remember the story above and beyond what
• 16:42
  you're trying to teach them. So if you can bring
• 16:45
  that story in, they'll say, oh, I have the same
• 16:48
  problem. I have the same pain point. And that
• 16:51
  will draw them in that much faster. Okay. What
• 16:55
  advice would you give to someone who is new in
• 16:58
  business and doesn't yet have a strong referral
• 17:01
  base and where do they start? Yeah, great question.
• 17:06
  My biggest advice to people who are new in business
• 17:10
  is to start with a CRM. And the reason I say
• 17:14
  that is because when you are new in business.
• 17:17
  People love to help you, right? Everybody is
• 17:21
  willing to give you some time, give you some
• 17:24
  advice, have a quick coffee chat with you. And
• 17:27
  all of those people that you're collecting are
• 17:30
  now invested in your growth and they want to
• 17:32
  see you succeed. And you need to stay in touch
• 17:36
  with them. But it's so easy as you're building
• 17:38
  a business to forget about those people, let
• 17:41
  them fall through the cracks. Maybe you remember
• 17:42
  them, but you don't remember exactly what you
• 17:45
  talked with them about. And if you have a CRM,
• 17:48
  it's really easy for you to keep track of all
• 17:51
  of those people, take notes about what you talked
• 17:54
  about, even set yourself tasks maybe in a month
• 17:58
  or three months down the road to follow up with
• 18:00
  them and give them an update and ask what they're
• 18:03
  up to and continue that conversation with them.
• 18:08
  So if you're able to build that really strong
• 18:10
  foundation from the beginning with a CRM and
• 18:13
  stay organized in that way, you can go just so
• 18:17
  much farther because there's people that honestly
• 18:20
  right now as a four and a half year business
• 18:24
  owner. probably wouldn't give me the time of
• 18:26
  day. But whenever I was starting out, people
• 18:30
  are just so much more likely to help you, right?
• 18:32
  They want to see you succeed. They want to give
• 18:34
  you that wisdom and impart some of what they've
• 18:38
  learned onto you. And so capture those people
• 18:41
  while you're young and fresh and new, and then
• 18:44
  take them on this journey with you as you're
• 18:46
  building your business. I agree. Part of my presentation
• 18:50
  is using a CRM. I happen to be a HubSpot user,
• 18:55
  have been for about three years. So when you'd
• 18:57
  mentioned the tasks and keeping up and the notes
• 19:00
  and everything, I'm like, that's what I do every
• 19:03
  day. You know, the first thing I do, I look at
• 19:05
  my tasks for the day, I accomplish them, and
• 19:08
  then I can move on and do new business. But I
• 19:10
  look at my tasks. So I can't agree more for using
• 19:15
  a CRM. And of course, I don't get any money out
• 19:18
  of it. but use HubSpot. Okay. Have you ever received
• 19:23
  a referral that completely surprised you? And
• 19:27
  what do you think made it happen? Yes, all the
• 19:32
  time. And I think most of my really surprising
• 19:37
  referrals will come from my LinkedIn presence.
• 19:40
  So I am very active posting on my personal LinkedIn.
• 19:43
  And what I have found over the years is that
• 19:47
  a lot of people are lurking on LinkedIn. So they
• 19:50
  never like a post. They never comment. They never
• 19:53
  share. And so I don't even know that they're
• 19:56
  reading my posts. I don't know that they're engaging
• 19:58
  with my content. But all of a sudden... a lead
• 20:02
  will come through and they will say the most
• 20:05
  random thing to me. Hey, one of your professors
• 20:07
  from whenever you were in college is my wife
• 20:11
  and she's been seeing your LinkedIn presence
• 20:13
  and I thought that I could use you. Hey, we haven't
• 20:18
  talked in 10 plus years, but I see you on LinkedIn.
• 20:21
  I know exactly what you do. I know the pain points
• 20:24
  that you help people with and I'm struggling
• 20:27
  with that. And so I want to work with you. And
• 20:30
  so again, like so much of it is staying top of
• 20:33
  mind and it can feel like a slog because you
• 20:36
  think nobody's reading these posts. I'm not getting
• 20:39
  the engagement. The same four people comment
• 20:41
  on every single one of my posts and they're my
• 20:44
  friends and I know that they already know what
• 20:46
  I'm doing. But the truth of the matter is there
• 20:49
  are so many people lurking in the background
• 20:51
  that are not going to engage until they have
• 20:55
  a problem or they know someone with a problem.
• 20:57
  And then they're going to pop their head up and
• 20:59
  say, hey, I'm ready to talk to you. I know the
• 21:03
  feeling. I post on LinkedIn. That's what I consider
• 21:07
  the business site of social media. I post on
• 21:11
  there probably twice a day, five days a week.
• 21:14
  And I guess about seven months had passed. And
• 21:18
  I got a LinkedIn message from an event planner.
• 21:21
  Like we were talking every day. I'm like, who
• 21:24
  are you? I didn't. Write that. And she just said,
• 21:28
  would you be interested in talking and doing
• 21:29
  this and speaking? It's a short plane ride and
• 21:32
  so on and so forth. But you're right. They're
• 21:36
  lurking in the background, just seeing what your
• 21:39
  next post would be. And they realize that they
• 21:42
  can use you. Exactly. And Michael, that's such
• 21:46
  a testament to to the tone and style of your
• 21:49
  post that people feel comfortable starting that
• 21:52
  conversation with you as if they know you as
• 21:54
  if they've been talking to you forever. And I
• 21:56
  would encourage our listeners to to think in
• 22:00
  a similar way of how can you feel friendly? How
• 22:02
  can you feel approachable? Yes, LinkedIn is a
• 22:05
  professional network. But at the end of the day,
• 22:07
  we're all humans doing business with other humans.
• 22:10
  So if you can make yourself come across in a
• 22:13
  way. that feels very warm and open, people are
• 22:16
  more likely to reach out to you and feel like
• 22:19
  they can approach you with questions or opportunities
• 22:22
  or problems or things that they want to loop
• 22:25
  you in on. I'm absolutely right. One of the things
• 22:29
  I had to remind people is that digital world
• 22:33
  and person -to -person world, right? The digital
• 22:36
  world, Zoom, this is great, but I have to remember
• 22:40
  that Jazz Joseph is a person and that I'm talking
• 22:45
  to a person. So you have the same things, but
• 22:48
  through Zoom, but you still have to follow the
• 22:50
  same rules as person -to -person networking.
• 22:55
  When I say rules, I just mean that comfort feeling.
• 22:59
  Okay, so systems or habits do you use to track,
• 23:04
  nurture, and deepen your referral relationships
• 23:07
  over time? I think I know the answer to this,
• 23:10
  but... Go ahead. Yes. I mean, we're back to HubSpot.
• 23:14
  It really, it's that all -in -one tool. And honestly,
• 23:18
  for anybody listening who is just starting out,
• 23:21
  the free HubSpot CRM is super powerful in and
• 23:25
  of itself. You don't need to onboard to like
• 23:28
  these really expensive tiers right away. The
• 23:31
  nice thing about HubSpot is that it will grow
• 23:33
  with you. But I have clients that have been on
• 23:35
  the free version for years and years. And it's
• 23:38
  a very, very... functional CRM. It gets you where
• 23:41
  you need to be. So yeah, as far as nurturing
• 23:43
  and keeping in touch with people, like I mentioned,
• 23:47
  I use tasks a lot. Depending on what level of
• 23:50
  HubSpot you're in, you can use sequences. You
• 23:53
  can enroll people in automated emails that feel
• 23:57
  very one -to -one. so that you can just be nurturing
• 24:01
  these people in the background. And so they don't
• 24:04
  fall through the cracks. You don't forget about
• 24:06
  them. And as soon as they respond, that lands
• 24:09
  in your inbox and then you take over. So it's
• 24:11
  not all automated. It's just that first message
• 24:15
  in the background is automated again. So you
• 24:18
  don't forget about them so they don't fall through
• 24:19
  the cracks, but then you can take over as a real
• 24:22
  human and start having those conversations and
• 24:25
  booking those meetings. So it's nice to really
• 24:28
  pair. the two. A lot of times whenever I talk
• 24:31
  about automation, people get very sheepish and
• 24:33
  they think, oh no, I could never do that because
• 24:36
  I have a very human -centric business and people
• 24:39
  are going to know and I don't want to come across
• 24:41
  sounding like a robot. But there's a beautiful
• 24:44
  way that you can pair the two because as a human,
• 24:48
  you're limited in your capabilities, right? It's
• 24:51
  easy to forget about people. It's easy to get
• 24:53
  busy. It's easy to let your nurturing strategy
• 24:56
  or your networking strategy fall to the wayside
• 24:58
  when client work comes into play. But if you're
• 25:01
  pairing that with the tools and systems in the
• 25:04
  background, then you know that's taken care of,
• 25:07
  that's working for you, and then you can jump
• 25:10
  in when it's necessary to have that human touchpoint.
• 25:14
  Absolutely. Always keeping that human touchpoint
• 25:18
  with you, available, just it's separating you
• 25:21
  from AI. And if you do that, people can really...
• 25:27
  Notice that. There's a way to tell if you see
• 25:30
  an article or something, if it's AI written.
• 25:33
  There are certain buzzwords, right? But you have
• 25:35
  to keep it more human, more personal. And even
• 25:39
  with the advent of AI, I still think this is
• 25:43
  much more important. It's more important. When
• 25:46
  you walk into a networking event, you like to
• 25:50
  feel the vibe of the room. You like to feel the
• 25:52
  vibe of the person you're talking to. That's
• 25:55
  so important. And keeping in touch with everything
• 25:58
  that you've been talking about, that becomes
• 26:00
  very, very important. Okay. How do you handle
• 26:03
  referrals that aren't a good fit without damaging
• 26:07
  the relationship with the person who sent them
• 26:10
  your way? Yeah. So this is what's so beautiful
• 26:14
  about referrals is that as much as you want to
• 26:19
  be getting referrals, you should also be giving
• 26:21
  referrals. And so I keep a list of People who
• 26:25
  work in a similar space to me, but slightly different,
• 26:28
  right? So people who work with maybe clients
• 26:31
  that are B2C. I mostly play in the B2B world.
• 26:35
  People who work with clients that are a little
• 26:37
  smaller than what I would like to work with.
• 26:39
  Or the flip side, people that work with big enterprise
• 26:42
  companies that I just don't have the manpower
• 26:44
  to handle. So I keep lists of... people who work
• 26:49
  in adjacent spaces to me that I trust. And then
• 26:53
  I can send business to them and or partner with
• 26:58
  them. A lot of times we can come in and we can
• 27:00
  work together on a project. But the more that
• 27:03
  you send business to someone, again, the more
• 27:07
  you stay top of mind and the more they're willing
• 27:09
  to send that business back to you. And so I've
• 27:13
  made some really great partnerships throughout
• 27:15
  the years, like I said, with people who work
• 27:17
  in an adjacent space, like HubSpot developers.
• 27:20
  I have a HubSpot developer. And that's all they
• 27:23
  do is build websites on HubSpot. That's not really
• 27:26
  where I live. I live more in the sales and marketing
• 27:28
  automation space. But of course, there's overlap.
• 27:32
  And so anytime my clients have a development
• 27:34
  need, I'm saying, hey, you have to talk to this
• 27:37
  guy. Anytime his clients have sales and marketing
• 27:40
  automation needs, he's saying, hey, you have
• 27:42
  to talk to Jazz. And we've built this really
• 27:44
  beautiful partnership over the years. And I know
• 27:47
  I can trust him. So any prospects or clients
• 27:50
  that come to me and need that help. I feel really
• 27:53
  confident referring to him and vice versa. So
• 27:56
  I would challenge you to build your network,
• 27:59
  not just of potential clients, but of also collaborators,
• 28:03
  because that's going to help you go farther as
• 28:05
  well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Before I ask you
• 28:10
  the last question, I ask all of my guests this
• 28:13
  very same thing. You've had quite an extensive
• 28:17
  background. Four and a half years ago, You decided
• 28:21
  to go out on your own. What major mistake have
• 28:25
  you made and how have you turned it around? Yeah,
• 28:30
  it's a great question. It's so hard because I
• 28:33
  think in hindsight, we look back on our mistakes
• 28:36
  and we realize how much we've learned from them.
• 28:38
  And so I don't even want to call them mistakes
• 28:40
  anymore. But so I alluded to it a little bit
• 28:43
  at the beginning of our call. I for a while was
• 28:48
  hosting networking events for my target audience
• 28:51
  and that was a really awesome way for me to build
• 28:54
  my pipeline and get my name out there and I was
• 28:56
  really enjoying them and the people that were
• 28:58
  attending were really enjoying them as well and
• 29:01
  I was enjoying them so much so that I thought
• 29:03
  why don't I start a second business that is a
• 29:06
  networking group. And so I put so much time and
• 29:10
  energy into building this networking group. And
• 29:13
  I'll tell you, a lot of people do it successfully.
• 29:15
  But I found that selling memberships to an online
• 29:20
  networking group was one of the most challenging
• 29:22
  things I've ever done. And it was very low cost,
• 29:25
  but it was just really challenging. And it was
• 29:28
  peak COVID times. I think there was a lot of
• 29:30
  Zoom fatigue and online networking fatigue going
• 29:33
  on. But we built this group. We ran it for two
• 29:36
  years. And retention was amazing. And our members
• 29:40
  absolutely loved it. But recruitment was such
• 29:43
  a slog. And it was really hard for us to get
• 29:46
  new members. And at the end of the day, I had
• 29:49
  to have some really hard conversations with myself
• 29:52
  and with my team to say, hey, this business is
• 29:55
  not profitable. It's basically breaking even.
• 29:58
  And we have these members who absolutely love
• 30:00
  it. And it's really hard for me to make the decision
• 30:03
  to shut this down because I know they're going
• 30:06
  to be so upset. But I have to think about my
• 30:08
  own time and energy and all that we've been putting
• 30:11
  into this. And so after two years, we had to
• 30:15
  sunset the network and it was. bittersweet, but
• 30:17
  I would say that was one of the biggest quote
• 30:21
  unquote mistakes. But like I said, I learned
• 30:23
  so much from it. There was a lot of mindset shifts
• 30:26
  and growth that had to happen throughout that
• 30:28
  time. But yeah, that's, that would probably be
• 30:31
  my number one. You can't grow unless you have
• 30:35
  mistakes, right? Listen, you've been in business
• 30:38
  for four and a half years. You know that, Hey,
• 30:41
  look, I'm in business. I'm in business. I'm almost
• 30:45
  out of business. What do I do? Oh, I got another
• 30:48
  client. It's going to keep me afloat. Oh, I'm
• 30:51
  out of business. You know, it's going to go up
• 30:53
  and down like that until you get all the way
• 30:55
  up and it'll serve itself. Okay. Bring this podcast
• 31:00
  full circle. If someone listening wants to shift
• 31:03
  from a sales heavy model to a referral focused
• 31:08
  one, what's the first thing you'd have them change?
• 31:13
  Yeah, I would say the biggest thing that you
• 31:17
  need to change is number one, your messaging.
• 31:21
  And the best way to change your messaging is
• 31:24
  just getting yourself out there and just speaking
• 31:27
  to people. So you heard me give my little spiel
• 31:30
  at the beginning of this podcast where I said.
• 31:33
  Agency owners, the shoe bankers kids never have
• 31:35
  shoes, and agency owners spend so much time building
• 31:39
  their clients' businesses that they rarely have
• 31:41
  the time, energy, or focus to work on their own
• 31:43
  business. It took me... months to figure out
• 31:47
  that's what I needed to say to get the head nods
• 31:51
  from people and that is the best way is just
• 31:54
  go talk to a bunch of people and really pay attention
• 31:58
  to the language that they are using when they
• 32:01
  talk about their problems and figure out how
• 32:04
  you can repeat that messaging back to them and
• 32:08
  once you get to a place where you start talking
• 32:10
  about your business and you get that Oh yeah,
• 32:13
  I've been there. I totally agree head on from
• 32:16
  people. That's when you know you've hit the nail
• 32:19
  on the head. You've identified that problem.
• 32:22
  And once you have a really solid problem that
• 32:26
  you can solve for people, that pain point, that's
• 32:29
  when the referrals just start flowing in. Jess,
• 32:32
  I want to tell you, this was a great podcast.
• 32:36
  You are in such in line with what I talk about,
• 32:39
  what I speak about, and what I firmly believe
• 32:42
  in. If somebody wants to get hold of you, either
• 32:45
  for coaching or to hire you as a consultant or
• 32:48
  whatever, what's the best way for them to get
• 32:50
  hold of you? Yeah, so you can visit J -A -S -Z
• 32:55
  -R -A -E .com. That's jazzray .com. Or you can
• 32:59
  find me on LinkedIn, Jazz Ray Joseph. And I would
• 33:02
  love to connect in either place. Fantastic. Jazz,
• 33:06
  thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
• 33:09
  And I hope to see you soon. Amazing. Thank you
• 33:12
  so much for having me. This was a great conversation.
• 33:15
  I'm happy we got a chance to do it. Well. Hold
• 33:21
  on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let's hear from
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  our sponsors. David Neal, co -founder Revved
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  matter where you're moving, Henry has the right
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  connections for you. You can contact Henry at
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  561 -427 -4888. A huge thank you to our guests
• 34:16
  for sharing such... insights today. And of course,
• 34:20
  a big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
• 34:23
  for tuning in and spending your time with us.
• 34:26
  If you're interested in my digital courses, being
• 34:29
  coached or having me come and talk to your company,
• 34:32
  just go to Michael and fill out the request form.
• 34:36
  Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
• 34:39
  It's about being present. So take what you've
• 34:43
  learned today, get out there and make some meaningful
• 34:45
  connections. If you've enjoyed this episode,
• 34:48
  please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a
• 34:51
  review and share it with someone who could use
• 34:54
  a little networking inspiration. Let's keep the
• 34:57
  conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
• 35:00
  Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, or my website, foreman
• 35:05
  .com slash podcasts.