Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 402 - MK-ULTRA : Trippin' On A Hole In A Paper Heart

Transcript

JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 402 - MK-ULTRA : Trippin' On A Hole In A Paper Heart · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: What what what.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: H repent of any sage's juice? Tear up the true
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: down a rabbit from the Junie my David very room
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: being mister food isn't the pure whennessy it's rainy night Hill,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: the lights the result Sid's never been rid.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Basting and the fun is.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And here we go. What's up?
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Everybody? Welcome in to episode four hundred and two.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about mk Aultra this evening as
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: it's kind of topical and in the news, if you will,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: real quick, Joe before we get into anything. Happy birthday,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: A big happy birthday to the birthday boy, Beckett Baldric
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: aka Li'll be right.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: It is his birthday.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: He's the Big fourteen today, so everybody wish little Beckett
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a happy, happy birthday.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: And also right off the bat, Dave Ferry.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Brandon gifted five memberships, Chris got one, Molly got one,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Colleen got one, Hey Colleen, Roger got one, and Art
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: got one. So welcome guys to this show. We hope
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: you enjoy those memberships and put them to good use.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Dammit you're muted.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Ha ha, Yes that is right, and thank you, and
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: happy birthday to the little Bee and Collie, one of
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: the members of the Gifted membership, says thank you and
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: caps which me and she is very happy about that.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I believe it's she.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: So and thank you, Brandon.
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: I think it's Colleen the Rocket Queen.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Allegedly. Maybe I'm mistaken. I could be wrong, correct me,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: correct me in the chat.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, but yeah, we're gonna skip a lot of the
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: intros and kind of get right into it.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, when we're talking about m k Ultra and
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: what it has to do with the with the Kennedy assassination,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: oftentimes you'll hear it applied to such theories as Manchurian candidates, uh,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Jolly and West and Jack Ruby, mind control, hypnotism, Dave Ferry,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: all kinds of interesting things. So we're going to be
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: covering a little bit of that as well as some
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: other scenarios maybe some of y'all aren't too familiar with
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: when it comes to the CIA and what they were
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: doing with these different mind control projects, because you know,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: it is a pretty popular theory out there. Joe, you
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: know that the CIA was behind the assassination, right, correct?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: As an institution in theory. As employees, maybe not so much.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: But when you really dive into what kind of stuff
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: the CIA was into in the fifties and sixties when
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it comes to trying to get an advantage over Russia
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: or any other communist country, any of our enemies out there.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: And trust me, the other guys were doing the same thing,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of the same thing. Excuse me when it
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: comes to trying to gain any advantage possible, you know,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: from trying to remote view things nieces LSD, fracturing the mind,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: breaking a person, creating a new personality hypnotism. Now, Joe,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if we did it on a member's
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: only show or if it was here on a Friday
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: night when we were talking about that Boost de Moni show.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: And they were able to create a mind controlled assassin, okay,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: within a couple of days. And they didn't have the
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: guy for a couple of days, but they literally, over
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: the course of a couple of days and maybe from
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: five to ten minutes hypnoticc sessions with the guy, were
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: able to have him poison Andrew Bustamante in a created
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: coffee shop and totally not remember it right.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: They narrowed down a group of people into who would
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: be most susceptible to the mind control, right, Yeah, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: it worked.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: It worked, and he did not remember it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: He did not remember it.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: He watched himself on video doing it and he was like,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I don't remember any of this, you know. So you
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: can imagine what a skilled hypnotist can do with the
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: person over the course of ten or twenty minutes after
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: meeting them a couple of times, and what could be
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: achieved over the course of months with hours, you know,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: devoted to programming someone's mind or breaking their mind, or
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: creating an alternate personality inside the person that can be
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: triggered by a series of words or actions or sounds
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. Right. So I always thinking,
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: you know, okay, if the CIA was, you know, really
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: behind something here, that would be the perfect way to
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: do it and get away with it, right, because you
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: have a built in patsy who is programmable to do
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: your dirty work and who.
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: Won't remember a goddamn thing afterwards. Right, look at see
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: your hand. Syrian to this.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Day can't remember shit about the actual assassination.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, to me, he is the ultimate programmed patsy.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: I agree, And.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying, and it doesn't have to be.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: You know, the government or the CIA or whatever doing
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. There were the CIA was using
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: a network of doctors psychiatrists.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: All over the world testing this stuff out on people.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: Intellectuals, yeah, cutouts.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, these people weren't CIA agents, you know, they're real
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: legit doctors, but they were also interested in experiments, probably
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: getting funded, you know, didn't hurt nobody, right, getting a
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: little green in your pocket in the process of doing
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: something that really intrigues you, Like, how far can you
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: actually take something if you think that you're doing it
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: for a good cause, you're doing it for the betterment
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of the country, Joe, right.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Of course. Right, And you remember, and we've talked about this,
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: and I believe it was on the members only, but
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: we pretty sure mentioned it before this all started, when
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: soldiers came back from the Korean War after being taken captive, brainwashed. Yeah,
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: this is how this was what sparked that whole this
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: whole operation.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: If you will, right now, was it unethical?
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Hell? Yeah, correct, right, because you're doing it on unsuspecting Americans. Okay,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: you're doing it on people that are enlisted in the
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: armed forces, soldiers, You're doing it on prisoners, you're doing
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: it on regular patients that are coming to you with
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: a specific problem that they hope that you helped them
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: with unwinning subjects, unwitting subjects, Yes for.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: Them, for the vast majority.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Of them, Yes, right. And you know we've we've talked
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: about here on the show before, of course, jolly On
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: West and some of these other MK ultra doctors who
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: are involved in things, and Sidney Gottlieb, you know, the
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: notorious Nazi at father of LSD, you know, and uh,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: the fact that Oswald does.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: Fit into some of these bills.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, he is a former soldier right at the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: time of the Korean War stationed at Atsugi.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: Who we've discussed here on the show before.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Joe was actually one of the two bases in the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: world where the United States government was storing LSD to
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: be and probably using it for some psychological experiments on
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: soldiers more than likely. Yeah, And of course, you know
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Oswald fits a weird pattern right when he comes back
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: from Japan and ultimately high tails ass straight to Russia
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and defects. I mean, we don't really have an explanation,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: a good one for the motivations other than the fact
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: that well, he was enamored with communism and socialism and Marxism,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: and you know he was disillusioned by the military and
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the strictness and d right. But I can't, for the
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: life of me, Joe, think that a guy in the
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in the Army of Marines back then would be allowed
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: to have any kind of Communist records or books or
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Russian stuff and they just let him, you know, have
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: all this stuff and study it. And Oswaldovich and this,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: that and the other. I don't know, it all seems
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: weird to me. It is.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: And if you take the stance that Oswalt was a
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: false defector and sent to Russia, if you were to
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: agree with that stance, I would say that he was
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: probably tested for interrogation purposes.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Right with it? ELLESD.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm saying
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: if you were in that camp, correct, you would have
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: to think being at a SUGI that he would have
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: been exposed to some of these experiments.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you got to remember where all this came
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: out of the Sandos Was it the Sandos labs in Switzerland?
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing, like where they
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: came up with the whole LSD formula and then you know,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: our CIA got their hands on it back backwards, engineered
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: it into their own thing, and then you have you know,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Sidney Gottlieb, and this falls into you know, the nineteen
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: sixties hippie movement with Ken Kesey and the kool Aid
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: acid tests and the Grateful Dead, and and then here
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: we go and here we go. Yeah, So before we
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: get into it, I just want to play everybody a
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: little bit of the Goddess herself, h just to kind
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: of set the table, because you know, supposedly this program
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: mk Ultra only ran for twenty years from fifty three
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: to seventy three, and then in nineteen seventy three, most
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: of the documents that the CIA had about this were
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: just ordered destroyed.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: Now, some dudes survive tangentially.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Right, of course, we'll be throwing a few of those
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: a little later.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And allegedly things stopped in seventy three, Joe, allegedly, Sure, right.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine that if something's going really good, it
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: would just be stopped all of a sudden, especially something
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: like that where you could weaponize a human being to
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: do your bidding. I mean, there's no better weapon than
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: that you could send them in to another country without
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: any weapons, just knowledge. You activate them in place and
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: they just go through the motions and do what they
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: were programmed to do.
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: It's crazy, yeah, And I'll take it even a step
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: further and say it might be even more possible today
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: when you.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Talk about people millennials, what's the what's the one before
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: after that?
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Gen Z.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: People on S s R. I's on different drugs, And
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: I think that's when the boost de Monte. Do you
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: know when that was when that was conducted. It was
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: a couple of years ago, right within the past few years.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: This year just came out in his series.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: I just it was just oh yeah, it was just
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: this year.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So conspiracies and cover ups if you go, like to
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: watch it yet Discovery Channel.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Episode one, right, right, So I'm saying those type of
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: factors might even make it even more possible. So to
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: think that they're not, you know, messing with us these
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: days would be naive in a sense.
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: Right, right.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: But if you compare the wokeness to the general population
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: of today rather than the wokeness of nineteen fifty when
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: everything was such a simpler time and people actually believed
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: in the government, there was a lot less crime, A
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: lot less KFFUSII, yeah, a lot less drug use.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: I don't know which is worse.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know either. I feel like now it's worse.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: But who knows. But to think that they're not still
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: experimenting in some form or way with these techniques would
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: be naive.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean you can imagine how useful of
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: a tool this would be for a handler CIA handler,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: you know, in order to it doesn't have to be
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: killed anybody, you know, you could use them to deal
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: secrets and bring them back to you or drop them
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: off somewhere or whatever the case may be, you know. Right,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: But let's get back to the goddess and hear what
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: she has to say, because again she's having a congressional
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: hearing to try to declassify what's if there is any
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I guess any left of the mk Ultra documents.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: And to see what our government was doing to.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Its own citizens as far as crimes that have been committed.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: All right, Joe, So let's check her out here.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Don't pull my.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Arm, don't pull them on. Oh all right, this is
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Friday night. I can't say that.
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: He did, Okay, vacation of federal secrets will come to order.
• 17:04
  Speaker 6: Welcome everyone without objection. The Chair may declare a recess
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: at any time. I recognize myself for the purpose of
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: making an opening statement. This hearing is about the crimes
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: committed by the Central Intelligence Agency against the American citizens
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: and the decades of secrecy used to conceal them. The
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: American people deserve a complete and truthful record, The victims
• 17:26
  Speaker 6: and their families deserve acknowledgment, and this Congress has a
• 17:29
  Speaker 6: constitutional obligation to ensure that full declassification is not delayed
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: any longer. Project MKLTRO was not a policy failure or
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: an overzealous program that got out of pan. It was
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: a deliberate, systematic governmental operation that subjected American citizens, prisoners,
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: hospital patients, veterans, ordinary people to LSD, electroshock hypnosis, sensory deprivation,
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: psychological torture without their knowledge or consent. This went on
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: for twenty years on American soil, funded by American tax
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: payer dollars and authorized by the very top of US
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: intelligence apparatus. And this program, when it did end, the
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: men who ran it did not cooperate with investigators. They
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: did not come forward, they committed another crime. They destroyed evidence.
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: The documents this task force has reviewed are unambiguous. In
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: January nineteen seventy three, the director of the CIA, Richard Helmes,
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: prepared to leave office. He personally ordered the destruction of
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: m Kultra records. The CIA official document in writing states,
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: over my stated objectives, the Mkultre files were destroyed by
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: the order of DCI mister Helms shortly before his departure
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: from office. A separate internal account confirms Helms telephoned doctor
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: Gottlieb directly and instructed him to destroy quote all files
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: pertaining to drug research and associated activities. Gottlieb completed or
• 18:51
  Speaker 6: compiled four people spent an entire day tearing burning down
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: one hundred and fifty two files. Then Gottlieb had his
• 18:58
  Speaker 6: personal papers destroyed by his secretary before he retired. The
• 19:02
  Speaker 6: head of the CIA owned Records Center protested the destruction
• 19:05
  Speaker 6: in writing, but he was overruled. That is obstruction of justice,
• 19:10
  Speaker 6: that is criminal destruction of federal records, and neither individuals
• 19:14
  Speaker 6: were ever charged with a crime for it. Helms received
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: a two thousand dollars fine for lying to Congress about
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: an unrelated manner and collected his government pension until he died.
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: Gottlieb retired in rural Virginia and wrote poetry. No one
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: went to prison. No victim was ever formally compensated by
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: the government for the harm that they caused. By nineteen
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: seventy five, the Church Committee and the Rockefeller Commission had
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: already established, through sworn testimony and the surviving nineteen sixty
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: three Inspector General port that mk ultra existed and that
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: the CIA had to run a program of human experimentation
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: on unwitting Americans. The scope in detail of what we
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: know today is largely because of an accident. In nineteen
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: seventy seven, an archivist diligently complying with a Foyer request
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: discovered so oven boxes of mk LTRA financial records that
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: had been misfiled and escaped the bonfire. Those seven boxes
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: included the names of institutions, the name of subprojects, the
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: researchers who participate, who participated the specific operation that the
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: CIA had funded, and without them, the vast majority of
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: m k ultra would only be a rumor. Just as
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: Helms and got leaved intended tho.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I believe that sets the table pretty good for what
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: mkultra was, what happened with the documents, what we have
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: left of the documents.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: And again I'm not sure what.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: The actual purpose of this of this committee is other
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: than the fact to shed light on things, right, because
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of this people just regular people, don't know
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: a damn thing about it. They've probably heard mk ultra
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: think of some from a conspiracy theory and don't pay
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: any attention to it, when in fact, when you stop
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: and you realize how badly the government just does not
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: give a shit about you personally, and we'll be willingly
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: use your own tax money to fund programs to test
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: things that possibly could kill you or put you in danger,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: put you in harm's way, or do things to you
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: that you'd rather not have done. So, Joe, if you will,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: let's get into a little bit deeper and see if
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: we can connect some doots here with the Kennedy assassination
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: and Mchaoltry.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Sure, let's do it. And if you want to share
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: my screen, we will sell the table with who. Sydney
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Gottlieb actually was born in August nineteen eighteen died in
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: March of ninety nine was an American chemist and spymaster
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: who headed the Central Intelligence Agencies nineteen fifties and sixties
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: assassination attempts in my control program known as and came Ultra.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: He was born to Hungarian Jewish immigrants. Blah blah blah,
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: A real quick too.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Let mean, sure Korean War ended in nineteen fifty three,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Rob Well Joe said it not Rob, but I will
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: say we still had a presence in Korea up into
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the sixties.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and to this day it's called the DMZ.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, and something that big Bed Josh said, I think
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: some of the confessions about dropping chemical weapons on Korea
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: are true, and I would agree with that, But I
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: think they've were concerned at the level at which the
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: prisoners of war that came back were so indoctrinated. Is
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: that the right word.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Well, they're just acting very strange, weird and withdrawn, and
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: you know, we don't have an explanation for it.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: So again, when you're thinking Cold War era intelligence agencies
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: US government are now concerned, what have they figured out
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: that we have not which sparked this whole.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Program, right, because we always have to know or tried
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to be better than the others.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: Our enemies.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, So let's see. Gottlieb first started with the
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Department of Agriculture SURE in the fifties Food and Drug Administration,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: which is SAUS. On July thirteenth, nineteen fifty one, Gottlieb
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: reported for his first day at work for the CIA.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Then Deputy Director for Operations hired him on hired him
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: on Ivra Baldwin's recommendation. I don't know who he is,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: but Baldwin had founded and ran the biowarfare program at
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: forty trick years earlier and kept got to leave in
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: his orbit. Gottlieb had advanced knowledge about poisons, and in
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: the fifties communist infiltration concerned many Americans. These Cold War
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: error figures also contributed to the CIA expanding its experimental
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: methods over the next two decades. So Gottlieb administered LSD
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: and other hallucinogenic drugs to unwinning subjects and finance psychiatric
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: research and development of techniques that will crush the human
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: psyche to the point that it would admit anything.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: He was named.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: By nineteen fifty five, Project mk Ultra had outgrown its
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: government funding. At this point, Project twenty seven Basic Research
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: of LSD was a funding subproject that combined previous subprojects
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: and blah blah blah blah. So that's kind of the
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: background of Gottlieb.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I have, in fact about Gottlieb real quick, too sure.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: When he retired from the CIA in nineteen seventy three,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: he was living in Carl Pepper, Virginia, which is literally
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: like a half an hour away from me right this minute.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Wow yeah, wow.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: M He was visited by uh actually the son of
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Frank Olsen at his house because he had he had
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: some questions for doctor Gottlieb.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: I don't blame in that son.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking more about that in part two
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: members next week, the whole Frank Olsen thing. But I
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: thought that was interesting. And apparently Sidney Gottlieb had a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: club foot Joe.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he should have been on the soccer team.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Point kicker Mark Moseley before Mark Mosley was Mark Moseley, which.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: By the way, if anyone's watching Argentina, let me know
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: if they score. But he was also involved in operations
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: under code names that included obviously MK Ultra Project, Bluebird
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: and Ardent Choke. And yeah, so I guess put back.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we already have this up here, Let's go
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: to the next page. All right, This is a memorandum
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: for the record, nineteen fifty six June. The purpose MK
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Ultra Project forty seven RON subproject Subproject forty seven. The
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: purpose of this program project is to provide funds to
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: continue the research program conducted by redacted at redacted. This
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: program is designed to exploit all the knowledge and facilities
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: available to its director in providing answers to specific questions
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: of direct interest to the agency. In addition, those areas
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: of basic knowledge required to provide these practical answers will
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: be developed. It should be noted that although the attached
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: proposal describes the facilities which will be used in the study,
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: the program itself was deliberately described in general overt terms
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: as in secret, in order to comply with its unclassified status,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: and the.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: View overt is the opposite of secret.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: COT will be seen oh yeah, I just got that,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Thank you sir, whoops and view of the above. It
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: is desired to describe more specifically the various phases of
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: the general program. Here A relatively small part of the
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: program will be in the fundamental field of the relationship
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: of structure to activity. This basic study will be an
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: overt nature and will serve the purposes of maintaining cover
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: redactive support of the program, and the description of this
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: memo is Gottlieb authorizes an mk ultraurage or this first
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: some project to be led by Carl Pfeiffer of Emory University,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: a frequent collaborator who conducted experiments on prisoners at the
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Federal Penitentiary in Atlanta, and you can almost guarantee those
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: were unwitting. Here Godlieb approves a request to continue Piffer's experiments,
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: which include the development of a quote anti interrogation drug
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: and quote tests in human volunteers end quote. The attached
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: proposal identifies the name of the study the Pharmaceutical Pharmaceudic
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: PARMA collagistical screening and evaluation of chemical compounds having central
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: nervous system activities, summarizing it as a testing of quote
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: materials capable of producing alterations in the central nervous system
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: which are reflections reflected as alterations in human behavior and quote.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Facilities described in the redacted documents include quote auxiliary animal
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: testing laboratories thus used for human testing. So this is
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: a four page document. I believe I only have two
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: pages here, I crop some some stuff out. A second
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: phase will be represented by an extensive effort on behalf
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: of redacted to find a solution to the requirement for
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: an anti interrogation drug. This requirement was laid on the
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: TSS Chemical Division by another agency component. A third phase
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: of the program will provide screening and evaluation of compounds
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: submitted by ts slash CD, including the phases involving tests
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: and human volunteers volunteers in quotes volunteers in air quotes.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: The funds for this project will be transferred using the
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: redacted redactive reductive redacted as cut out in the usual manner.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: So costs for this program for a period of one
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: year June fifty six are estimated to be forty seven
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: one thousand dollars, but it ended up being fifty thousand dollars.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: The redacted has requested redacted redacted to submit to them
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: a summary accounting on an annual basis of all money received. Okay,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: they're talking about finances here. The requirement for six months
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: informal accounting on the part of the principal investigation is waived.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Investigator is waived. Okay, so they're saying we don't really
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: care about what.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: You do with the money, right.
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: Is that what they're saying, a title to any permanent
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: equipment purchased by the funds granted to redacted shall be
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: retained by reducted in lieu of higher overhead rates and
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: going to skip it or we're going to eight now
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: on the right side in connection with travel, Okay, we
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: don't need that is agreed that technical affairs technical reports
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: reflecting the progress of research program shall be submitted at
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: mutually acceptable interfuels approved none other than Sydney got to
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: leave cheap chief of the TSS Chemical Division. So this
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: is an approval of funds. One of the few documents
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: that were found that confirms that this was an actual
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: legitimate operation, right Rob, Yes, Okay, So there's a there's
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: a good page on the National Security Archive dot GWU.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: I believe that's George Washington University dot edu that goes
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: through a lot of this stuff. And you know, I
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: don't want to go through every document because there's like
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: twenty or thirty, but we can go through the summary
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: of the documents.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: And now we're in MK Ultra Program nineteen sixty three.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: The memo records a meeting held at the office of
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, General Marshall Carter to settle
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: one of the major point of disagreement among CIA officials
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: over the Inspector General's mk Ultra recommendations other to continue
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: with the testing of mk ultra substances on unwitting US citizens.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: Let me repeat that, whether to continue the testing of
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: mk ultra substances on unwitting US citizens. Now, whether that's
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: prisoners or soldiers, patients, patients, it could be all three,
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: all the above. Others present were Deputy Director for Plans
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Richard helm CIA Executive Director and former Inspector General Lehman,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Lyman Kirkpatrick, current CI Inspector General John Erman, and Sidney Gottlieb,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: head of the CIA's Technical Services Division. Both Gottlieb and
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Helms argued quote quote argued for the continuation of unwitting testing. Repeat.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Both Gottlieb and Helms quote argued for the continuation of
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: unwitting testing, as in dosing people without their knowledge. Well Irman,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Carter and Kirkpatrick disagreed. Carter was concerned with the unwitting aspect,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: and a discussion ensued on the possibility of an unwitting
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: test on foreign nationals, which had been ruled out to
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: the opposition from senior chief of stations as quote too
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: dangerous and quote and who they said they lacked controlled facilities,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: as in, they couldn't really control the flow of information
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: or what would happen or what would come out.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Probably, right, yeah, because more than likely to get your
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: hands on some of these foreign nationals, it would most
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: likely be some prisoners of war, right, which at some
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: point you're either going to have to make disappear or
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: send them back. And if you fuck them up too
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: bad psychologically and they go back and tell their people
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: what happened, and that might be a problem.
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: That might be a problem. And you could be talking
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: about certain defectors maybe from you know, the USSR.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Russia maybe or some spies you capture or right, you know,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: are we talking like army bases? Are we talking about
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: CIA black sites? You know type of things?
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Who knows, right, But they're saying that they were concerned
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: about the lack of controlled facilities, right.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Probably over if it's military, you know, it's kind of
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: out of the government. I mean, there's so much out
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: of the government's facilities. But it'd be hard to control
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: somebody who's not getting paid to keep the mouth shut
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: about what they're doing here. They might have some moral
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: objections to what they're doing to still as human beings.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: But right, and yeah, and and and they're they're consold
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: concerned about the control of information. Is the short summary
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: of that. Earman finds this quote odd, emphasizing the slip
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: should slip, should shod slip shod?
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Nature are some of the safe houses used for unwitting.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Tests in the US aka CIA black sites. Yes.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Concluding the meeting, the participants agree that if the director
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: for plans determined that quote quote, that unwitting testing on
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: American citizens must be continued to operationally prove out these
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: drugs and may become necessary to place this problem before
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: the Director of Central Intelligence for a decision. So does
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: that mean the director might not have known at this point?
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: And this is I believe this is the nineteen sixty three,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: so that would have been a calm Right.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Again, the directors come and the directors go. But these
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: other folks are lifers, you know what I'm saying.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the directors are more I guess political appointees more
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: than career agents for the most part.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes you'll get a Helms type who has been
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: a lifer, and other times you might get a George
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Bush who was you know, political appointee. But right, yeah,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: they come and they go quick. They're not always aware
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: of what the hell is going on. It's all these
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: substructures and need to know type things and top secret,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: top top top secret, above top secret things that they're
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: doing that maybe the director would never even know what
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: was going on.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm for sure. Cover memo from nineteen seventy five
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: indicates that the DCI decided to defer a decision on
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: testing US citizens for one year in request of that
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: until the agency quote, please continue the freeze on unwitting testing.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: The authors of the cover memo found quote no record
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: that this freeze will ever was ever lifted. So there's
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: a lot of skafoozer rebound regarding this project. Right, Yeah,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: here we are. This is the aforementioned memo of October
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five. Two. The Director of Central Intelligence from
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: the Inspector General subject destruction of records on drugs and
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Toxins was helm's director at seventy five. No, no, okay.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: I believe I think he was out in seventy three,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: same as Gottlieb could be wrong.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Okay, so this might be like a Church Committee era
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: ish type of document.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Definitely, okay.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: At your request, we looked into the destruction of agency
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: records related to drugs and toxins. We limited our investigation
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: to avoid interfering with other ongoing investigations on this matter. Now,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: the second part of that sentence is concerning including that
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: of the FBI. We held discussions with several people in
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: the d D SLASH SNT Records Center and archives and
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: reviewed a number of OTS files. Are Finding and conclusions
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: follow and Ultra records. This was an umbrella project for
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: funding sensitive TSD activities, including research into methods for controlling
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: human behavior. No drug related NK Ultra files were turned
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: up during our investigation Push Shocker. A number of documents
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: concerning the destruction of the MK Ultra drug records are
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: attached at TABA. In general, they show that the records
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: were destroyed at the instruction of doctor Sydney Gottlieb on
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: in January nineteen seventy three, so we're talking like two
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: and a half almost three years later. Both branch files
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: and records were free from archives were destroyed. So here
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: we are them admitting everything was destroyed by the order
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: of none other events.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Sid they gottlieb Yeah, not just what they had in
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: their own storage. They went to the archives and pulled
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: out a bunch of shit and destroyed that too, right.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: Which means that they were sush or they were a problem.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Do you think the archivists would have frowned upon that behavior, Joe, They.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: Would have frowned upon that, know that they probably wouldn't
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: have frowned upon it.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Knowing they would they would do what they're told. They
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: would go get relative documents and proceed to destroy correct.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Tab A also contains statements by messrs of ots. These
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: statements indicate that the destruction of MK ultra drug files
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: were ordered by none other than mister Richard Holmes. Tab
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: B contains UH records show and blah blah blah. Other
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: files possibly dealing with drugs as well as b h
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: SH destruction were destroyed on January seventy three, so that
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: would have kind of been around when Helms left right,
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: or at least close to it, rather than the more
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: commonly accepted January seventy three date. Mentioned in most of
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: the tabs, Rob, can you can you google really quickly
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: if Elms left in the middle of January seventy.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Three, I will look while used.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: To be because it seems like this is the case
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: based on what we just read. We identified three mk
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: ulture files, which it turned out deal with redacted aspects
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: of the project. According to doctor Stevens, no fogs floid
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: to those aspects have been destroyed. Okay, However, some mk
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: ultra material is mentioned on the list of items were
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: retired to archives in March of nineteen seventy four.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: His last day was February two, nineteen seventy three. Yes,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: he left three days after the anti Eulter files were dunsky.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as we say here, that's a problem.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: One last foul swoop.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's then he became the ambassador to Iran until
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven. Wow.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: Then they talk about box just discovered and the archives
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: and January seventy five, blah blah blah. I'm gonna skip
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: some of that. We were viewed an Archives file containing
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: the minutes of CI Research Board from fifty three to
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: sixty two. The minutes mentioned several briefings of the board
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: by doctor gob Gottlieb and others on at least some
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: aspects of the Drunk and Top programs. Copy of these
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: documents are attacked in san Tab three and then they
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: go on talking about all these boxes and where they
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: were found, you know, in nineteen seventy five. And and
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: this is written by Donald F. Chamberlain, who was the
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: Inspector General the CEA at that time. We believe it
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: is likely that a thorough search of agency records, particular
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: excuse me, particularly DdO operational records would continue to produce
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: additional pieces of the drug activity puzzle. We believe it
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: is unlikely that a search would provide, provide, would produce
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, any major intact repository of information on this subject,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: recognizing that such a search would heavenly have the burden
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: people already overtaxed with investigative activities. We don't want to
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: bother helms anymore, and we are inclined to doubt that
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: the return would justify the investment. So they're saying any
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: more searches wouldn't be worth it.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, no further, there's nothing to see here.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like I said, the National Security Archives, I
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: guess George Washington. These are some of the summaries of
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: some of these documents. Like I said, I don't want
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: to bore everyone with it, but in a letter to
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: now we're tired. This is nineteen seventy nine, so we're
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: talking HCA area. Now, Sidney Gottlieb, the agency require requests
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: his assistance with a CIA project to quote investigate its
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: past involvement with drugs with emphasis on the use of
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: drugs on unwitting subjects. So they're they're gonna ask the
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: dude that ran this for assistance.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good luck with that.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: The questions mainly have to do with a secondary effort
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: of the investigation to assess the possibility of harm by
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: the specific drugs and the quantities used, right because they
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: obviously dosed people out of their minds, and to flesh
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: out the report with enough details of the safe house
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: operations to lend credence to the report.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Now we're going to go to a real quick for you.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to Stephen Kinser was actually one of
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the guys a book called Poisonering Chief. He was one
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: of the guys that testified in front of Luna alongside
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Tom Tomonil. Tom O'Neil and some other doctor lady. She
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: has a weird name. I can't remember it, but.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this document, I guess the same day. This
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: document records answers given over the phone by Gottlieb, so
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: they called him that day. In response to questions posed
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: by the CIA and its letter of April thirty and
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: seventy nine, among other things, Gottlieb says that the LSD
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: used by George White, who we covered in a previous
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: episode in the CIA safe host safehouses was quote packaged
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: as a solution in approximately eighty microgram units in plastic ampules.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: End quote, and.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: That follow up with subjects was conducted when practical, as
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: in when they came out there tripping their journey. Gottlieb
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: estimates that these were approximately forty tests on unwitting subjects
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: that were quote performed to explore the full range of
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: operational use of LSD, including for interrogation and for provoking
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: erratic behavior.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: And also here, Joe, I would apply the how many
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: chicks have you been with equation to how many tests
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: did you do on unwitting subjects? Yeah, and he's probably
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: slow rolling that a bit. I would probably multiply that
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: number by ten yeh or a you know.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: So now we have on the right side document twenty
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: of this archival summary if you will source Steven who
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: just mentioned Stephen Kinser donation. This is the second of
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: three depositions of Sydney Gottlieb by attorneys representing Val Ordikov,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: a former patient of Allen Memorial Institute, where ci Beck
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: performed staff performed horrific experiments on psychiatric patients during the
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: fifties and the sixties. I asked whether he was involved
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: in quote domestic field experimentation end quote with LSD. Gottlieb said,
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: if by what you mean field experimentation is experiments that
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: involve that are taking place outside of Washington, d C.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: And if by my personal involvement you mean was I
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: aware of them or did I have something to do
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: with their investigation investigation, the answer is yes.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: The answer is yes.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: When Gottlieb was shown the document indicating that he had
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: personally conducted an interrogation, he probably under some guy that
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: was tripping out of his mind, He claims confusion, before
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: admitting that he had indeed been involved in between one
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: and five interrogations. Yeah, multiply that by about ten at least.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, I'll apply the equation of how many girls
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: have you been with before me? Yeah?
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: Or guys have you been with before me?
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that question depending on not that there's anything wrong
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: with that.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: Gottlieb nevertheless denies that the CIA intended to develop techniques
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: to improve US interrogations. The primary objective of developing new
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: techniques or investigation has to do with the difference between
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: something I've always objected to, namely that the whole program
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: wanted a great Manchuritian candidate. The program never did that.
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: That was a fiction as far as I'm concerned.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: No, So, I mean technically, technically, if we're speaking technically here,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: maybe mk Ultra didn't. But there was a lot of
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: sub projects involved with all this stuff, right correct. Maybe
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: technically Mkultra was not, you know, it was more probably
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: more of an LSD thing, you know whatever. But some
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: of these other subprojects that will talk about here in
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit possibly were to create a manitarian candidate,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: right yeah.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, Here we have a great picture of a young
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: jolly on West.
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: Young burrel jolly and West.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, And of course you know we've talked about him
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: before and before I end my little segment here. I
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: just want to talk about the document about the report
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: of psychiatric examination of Jack Ruby, dated April I believe
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: that's eleventh, nineteen sixty four, right, So you're saying, what
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: like five months after the assassination. Two weeks ago, doctor
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: Robert Winston Smith asked me whether I would be willing
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: to examine mister Jack Ruby, presently under death sentence in
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: the Dallas count of jail and without financial resources. I agreed,
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: with the understanding that the examination would be without fee, yeah,
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: and with the prior knowledge of the American Psychiatric Association,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: as well as with the assistance of some qualified Texas colleagues,
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: and that the results of my examination would be completely
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: available to the court. Four days ago, doctor Smith requested
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: that I come to Dallas today to see mister Ruby
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: briefly and to testify at a hearing tomorrow regarding the
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: possible value of further psychiatric studies. I'm going to read
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: that last part again. Regarding the possible value of further
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: psychiatric studies. Hypnosis and intravenous sodium penthethol that's truth serum, right,
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: were included among possible techniques to provide further information concerning
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: mister Ruby's state of mind at the time that he
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: shot Lee Harvey Oswald. On November twenty fourth, nineteen sixty three,
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: I received copies of some of the previously reported examinations
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: of mister Ruby by several specialists, but was unable to
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: read them until earlier today. On the airplane tonight, my
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: own findings make it clear that there has been an
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: acute change in the patient's condition since these earlier studies
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: were carried out. Upon arriving at the jail this afternoon,
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: I met Sheriff Bill Decker, who informed me that last night,
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: after midnight, mister Ruby had tricked his guard into stepping
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: out to get him a glass of water, and that
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: he had run and struck his head against the wall. Okay,
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: it was not clear whether or how long the prisoner
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: was unconscious. According to the Sheriff Decker, mister Ruby had
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: subsequently been taken to a hospital where a physician exabin him,
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: including X ray films of the skull, has stated that
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: he was a subject of he was without serious injury.
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: It was also said that mister Ruby had been caught
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: stripping out of the stripping the lining of his prison
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: guard apparently to fashion a noose for himself to hang
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: himself allegedly. So I don't know what's going on here.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: I think this might be backdated a little bit. You
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: could take it off and I, Rob, I feel like
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: a lot of this might have happened maybe post.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: I believe Tom O'Neill and the documentary that on Netflix
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: said they had come across some other documents that actually
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: put a visit from Jolian West a little more closer
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: to the time when Ruby was actually arrested, you know,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: in late November early December. But again, it's fascinating to
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: find a lot of these things, like all the doctors
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Jolian West's papers are you know, housed at some college somewhere.
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: I can't remember where.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Maybe perftly it's Cali foreigner somewhere. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: And a lot of these guys that are responsible for
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: bringing a lot of this out, or some of these
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: guys that have written some fascinating books out the topic,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: and they've really gone deep on some things, and that's
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: why they're testifying to the subcommittee or to the Committee
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: on Declassification of Federal Secrets. Right.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: But my question, Rob, is so you're gonna do some
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: psychological tests of Jack Ruby. What would be the point
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: of that? Will that to be to study why he
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: shot Lee Harvey Oswalt, because you know, the official story is, well.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: That might be the overt reason, but the covert reason
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: seems to be. All right, you visit this guy now,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he's got a death wish. He's
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: trying to ram his head into a concrete wall and
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: then hang him still.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: Or yeah, and or he's crazy? What can you believe
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: of what he says?
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So are they trying to silence him at this
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: point and shut him up for good and say, oh,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: you know he epsteined himself. Sorry, yeah, he didn't ask
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: anything anymore? Or were they worried about him getting another trial,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: which he eventually did. He didn't make it to it though,
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: but you know he did get another trial, so who knows.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, it's crazy. Those are just like I said,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to run through all those documents and
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: read them. I felt the summaries were just as good.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: But crazy stuff long enough, yes, so tears.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: All right, So you know, research and this kind of
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: stuff I found. I came across a book Joe, written
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, two thousand and two to
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: be exact by Jerry Leonard, called The Perfect Assassin, Lee
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald, The CIA and mind Control. Okay, Now, this
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: is a nonfiction conspiracy book that proposes that Oswald was
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: both the perpetrator and to patsy in the JFK assassination
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: due to a CIA mind control program. Much like you
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: could apply that heading if you will to see her
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: hands seer hand, you know, he was both. I mean,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I don't think he actually perpetrated anything. I don't think
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: his bullets reached Senator Kennedy, but he was definitely a Patsy. Now,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: what this book talks about is interesting, and we'll break
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: it down a little bit here. So he's basically saying
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: that Oswald is an mk Ultra victim, Thank.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: You, Tony Stanford University.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: Basically an unwitting subject of Project mk Ultra and related
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: mind control behavior efforts or other subprojects. He claims Oswald.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Was hypno programmed or behaviorally modified to act as a
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: super spy or assassin, with his personality deliberately split or manipulated. Now,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: this book unifies both the Loan Gumman and the conspiracy views, right,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: because you know, if you can't have both, I mean,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: what are we doing here?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: And sometimes it could be both.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: You know, he could be the loan the loan assassin
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: and still be part of a conspiracy. Right. Uh.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: Whether or not he's unwitting or witting is a different question.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: There was other there was you know, we can apply
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: this because there was other CIA mind control programs going
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: on at this time. We know about the lsdata SUGI,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: which is Sus. It was around this time that I
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: was well started acting very different and you know, basically
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: getting out of the Marines and hauling airs straight for Russia,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: where he would try to defect I guess, or become
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: a fake defector, more of an intelligence dangle if you will.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Oswald documented bizarre, inconsistent and bipolar like behavior. You can
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: include in that his anti kit. It's an interest in
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: anti cat or procastro activity. Sorry, and also the action
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: surrounding of course. November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, whether
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: or not he was part of shooting Kennedy or not,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: he was in a Susk place, actually a couple of susplaces.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: So there's that. Now, this guy Leonard. He repersents descriptions
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: from US military hypnosis expert to show how Oswald's conduct
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: that kind of matches that of a hypno programmed agent.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: He's seemingly erratic life is reinterpreted in a as a
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: coherent pattern of a split personality espionage and assassination programming.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Now disclaimer, I have not read this book, although it
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: seems hella interesting.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: So one of.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: The key points of the book is it kind of
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: centers around this guy named George Esterbrooks. Okay, this guy,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: George Esterbrooks, was a prominent US military psychologist, hypnotist, and
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: intelligence consultant. As the key reference expert, he draws on
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: Esterbrooks public statements, writings, and claimed operations to argue that
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: Oswald's life trajectory actually matches the profile of a hypno
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: program superspy or involuntary assassin created from programs like MK Ultra.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: So who was George Esterbrooks?
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Well, he was a Harvard trained psychologist who worked with
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: the US military and reportedly consulted for the CIA and
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: FBI on hypnosis applications.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: This guy's a master hypnotist, and we know what they're
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: capable of doing.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Jill he was outspoken about hypnotis about hypnosis as a
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: tool for intelligence work, including creating multiple personalities in people,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: implanting suggestions, and programming individuals for espionage or other tasks
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: without their knowledge. He famously claimed to have conducted real
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: operations such as hypnoprogramming a marine with a fake pro
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: communist persona for use as a fake defector. Okay, so
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: he claims to do or to have done, what could
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: have possibly been done to Oswald hypothetically he claims to
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: have actually done it. Wow, sus, Yes, a little bit,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: a little bit. You can apply this to his pro
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: communist activities, his defection to the USSR, his Marxist posturing,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: his legend, and again this mirror as the Brooks claimed
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: operation with the Brainwash marine that he claimed to do
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: this too. Would you say, Joe, from what we know
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: about Oswald, do you think he was bipolar or possibly
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: of a split personality, meaning do we have a dichotomy
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: of him acting two different ways? Ah with people?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: I'd say it's possible.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't know one hundred percent know,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: of course, what life with Lee Harvey Oswell would have been, like,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, Marina would know best, I guess, But you know,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: you hear these stories of Oswald seemingly liking Kennedy, being
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: anti Castro pro Usa, and then you supposedly have him
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: doing something horrible to the president of the United States
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: that he supposedly likes in the country that he loves
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: so much. It's kind of weird a little bit, sus.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: And then you hear these stories, you know, from people
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: like Buille Frasier about you know, what kind of a
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: guy he was, and he loved kids, and he would
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: play out in the yard with the kids, you know,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: but he's really a stone cold killer, Joe, you.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 7: Know what I mean.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, I mean I could see it
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: like it even if you had like one outwork facing
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: image and one natural type of image and other situations.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you'd call that bipolar, but I
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: wouldn't like whool it out.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The one thing that is a big red flag
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: for me is David Fairy being this great hypnotist, right,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: doctor David Fairy. That's a good point, yeah, and I'm
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: sure he used that to uh co opt his way
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: inside of some trousers from time to time. You're getting sleepy, Joe,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: you're getting very sleepy, take off your pants, and when
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: you wake up, you will remember nothing of this.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: Wait, what what did you just say?
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Nothing?
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: Nothing, nothing happened.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: There wasn't any of this.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: I never heard that noise before.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: Why does my behind her?
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: It's just a it's a ghost whisper.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: Okay, that's I'm just choking.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Sorry, But yeah, I mean this certainly sounds like an
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: interesting book to kind of uh, you know, if you
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: want to check that kind of thing out now, let.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: Me Yeah, cant can you repeat the name of that book?
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: I want to write it down.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: And let's see here where are we at?
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: It's called The Perfect Assassin by Jerry Leonard.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: L E O N A R D. Thank you sir. Yeah,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Now we saw some things from when Joe was showing
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: the document summaries that were also from the Marx collection,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: and that is from author John Marx in his book
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: The Search for the Manchurian Candidate, The CIA and Mind Control,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: which was put out in nineteen seventy nine, which was
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: one of the very early whistleblower books and expose a's
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: of mk ultra and its predecessors like Bluebird and Art
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Choke and some other names that we probably never heard
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: of before when it comes to these mind control deals.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: And I believe it was because of Mark's four you
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: request that these mk ultra things were accidentally found, right, Yeah,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: So we know CIA was testing combined hypnosis and not
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: just hypnosis, because I mean we've we've seen what just
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: hypnosis can do, let alone, if you can bind drugs
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: and hypnosis, right, I mean, could you image hypnotize somebody
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: who's tripping balls. I don't know how well that would go,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: but they definitely probably wouldn't remember.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: It, right, but they definitely probably did.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, why you gotta.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: Gotta be in the forefront of this stuff?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Wrong? Yeah, And again this was done to enhance susceptibility,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: induce amnesia, or in plant suggestions. The goals included hypnotically
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: induced anxieties, improved recall learning under hypnosis, like maybe Joe,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I'll teach you Mandarin while you're in hypnosis, so I
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: can send you to China and you can become an
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: undercovered spy and realize but I don't.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: Even speak Chinese, you know, and then all of a sudden, no.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Where did it come from?
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: Or or something like RFK must die, right or what
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: was that what Sarhan Saran wrote a million times?
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's programming correct, you know, and that's probably
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: coming from some some sort of subconscious area. You know,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: maybe you know, a fracture in the programming, right, because
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of this stuff's probably not one
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: hundred percent bulletproof, you know what I'm saying, Like, everybody's
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: not the same mentally.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: Right, And big bag Josh with another comment, only weak
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: or consenting minds are able to be hypnotized. And yeah,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: when we talked about Sirhan, Sirhan, I mentioned this before
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: dude fell off his horse and hit his head. That
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: is a weak mind in my opinion. I'm not sure
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: Oswalt fits that bill. But or he was consenting, but
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: who knows.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, a young seventeen year old Oswald just going
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: in the Marines, who knows this. I was joining the
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Astronomy Club and the cat program. And you gotta remember
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: what kind of homelights this dude had his overbearing mother.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: You know, he's probably fucked up in the head. It
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't take much to co opt this guy's brain
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: and get in there and do something or try to
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: do something.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that it happened.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: But I mean, you know with some time, you know,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: I mean that show we were talking about with Boust Demante.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: You know, they they were looking for the most susceptable person, right,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: But that's not saying that everybody can't be hypnotized over
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: a period of time. You know, maybe not after one
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: ten minute session you're fucked, but maybe over the course
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: of an hour a day for two weeks, you might
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: be a little more susceptible.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: Months, or maybe even a year or more.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you see these guys who can like
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: hypnotize people like instantly, some of this you know shit
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: on the internet. I don't know how they do it,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: but they're like grab them by the wrist or something
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: and say something and tap them on the head and
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: they're fucking you know, they were hypnotized. I don't know
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: if it's bullshit, you know, like some Chris Angels bullshit
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: where everybody's on the payroll. You know, I don't know,
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: call me simple, but you know there's there's some stuff
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: out there like that, you know, but there was also
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: guess you would call it a a sister kind of
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: thing to Mkautri called Operation Shocker Shocker two in the
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: pink one of the thing Shocker Yes, Operation Shocker now.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: Operation Shocker was a twenty three year long counter intelligence
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: operation run by our FBI Joe against the Soviet Union HUM.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: The operation involved the fake defection in place of a
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: US Army sergeant based in Washington, DC.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: A fake wait, say that the sense again?
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: A fake defection in place? A fake defection in place?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, what does that exactly mean?
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Well, let me get through the sentence and you might
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: understand a little.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, I'm trying to just keep up with you.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: The operation involved the fake defection in place of a
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: US Army sergeant based in DC, who, in return, for
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars over two decades, provided information
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: to Soviet intelligence the GRU as agreed by the Joint
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Chief of Staff. This included over four thousand documents on
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: a new nerve gas the US believed unweaponizable, with the
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: US intending to waste Soviet time, effort, and resources. So
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: a fake defector in place Joe would be like a
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: disgruntled Pentagon Army colonel who basically offers his services to
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: the enemy. He offers his allegiance to them. He offers
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: to sell them or give them information or sell them information.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 4: A trader, if you will. That'd be like a fake,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: He pledges his allegiance to Mother Russia, Okay, and offers
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: to help, you know, Russian spies and feed them information
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: that's supposedly coming directly from the Army or the Pentagon
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: or wherever. Right right now. This is a fascinating operation, dude,
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: Like I said, twenty three years long. They were fucking
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: with the Soviets, right.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: Almost like a poison pill type of thing.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: They trolled them for twenty years, over four thousand documents.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: The operation began in nineteen fifty nine when US Army
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: First Sergeant Joseph Edward Cassidy was assigned to the Army's
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Nuclear Power Office near Washington, d c. When he was
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: approached by the FBI with the Army's permission. Okay, Cassidy,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: despite having no previous training, was able to make contact
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: with a Soviet naval attache who was believed to be
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: a spy and set up an arrangement where he would
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: provide information to the Soviets in exchange for money. Soviet
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: requests for information were passed to the US Joint chiefs
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: of Staff, and various classified information in quotes was provided
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: to Cassidy to turn over to the Russians as a result. Okay,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: So the principal Russian interest was in information about the
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: US nerve gas program, and Cassidy initially established his credentials
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: by providing genuine data from the US program. So to
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: begin with, he was feeding them legit docs and good information.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: Which is how you establish credibility.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: Exactly. By sixty four he was in a position to
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: begin pointing Soviet research towards G series nerve agent GJ,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: which the US thought could not be produced in a
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: stable weaponizable form. But he's basically giving them a lemon, okay,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: or giving them a trying to give them a lemon
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: formulation that just could never be done allegedly. I don't know.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: That's above my pay grade chemistry.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: They're trying to send Russians on the you know, on rabbit.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: Holes, yeah, wild goose chase.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: Cassidy provided there were four thousand documents on a mixture
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: of real and non existent research into this new gas.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: But the US intending to waste Soviet resources, attempting to
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: duplicate the work. David Wise in his book, Cassidy's Run
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: implies that the Soviet program to develop the Nova chalk
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: agents may have been an unintended result of the misleading information.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: The operation was highly classified, and when two FBI agents
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: died in a plane crash while surveilling a Soviet spy,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: press and public were misled about the circumstances, and even
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: the agent's families were lied to and told nothing for
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: years about the real reasons that they perished. A similar
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: and arguably more significant disinformation operation was run by the
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: FBI via double agent Dmitri Poliakov, feeding the Soviet Union
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: the false information that the US was covertly continuing its
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: biological weapons program, despite public announcements to the contrary. That
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: disinformation may have been one reason which led the Soviet
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Union to expand its biological weapons program and a near
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: universal belief into the the nineties among its scientists that
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: they were mirroring US efforts when allegedly we were not
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: trying to make biological weapons allegedly. Operation Shocker was the
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: microcosm of the Cold War. Like so much that happened
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: during the unique and dangerous period, it was conducted in secret,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: ran for twenty three years and made it the longest
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: espionage operation of its kind in the history of the
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: Cold War. It was marked by success, failure, triumph, and tragedy. Cassidy,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: the main progenitor here, gave him it was code named Wallflower.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: He began what was to be a new career for
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: which he had new previous training. He was given the
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: Distinguished Service Medal in secret for his efforts to fuck
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: with the sobe.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 8: It's sus yeah, I mean, so you know, these kind
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 8: of programs not just ran by the CIA folks, right right,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 8: So you can see, and this was back in the fifties.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: The FBI was doing this with the army's permission.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: I did not know anything about this, So.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: You can see how possibly it might have not been
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: a CIA program. And when we have the FBI all
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: around Oswald in New Orleans right in sixty three, yea,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: god knows.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 4: What they're doing.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 7: You.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: Guy Banister up his ass and he was a former
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: FBI agent. David Ferry and Guy Banister are tight. David
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: Fairy is a hypnotist who knows what was going on
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: back then. There's a lot of parallels and dots to
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: connect here. If you really want to try, right, But
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: you know it's fascinating stuff. Many So let's see, let's
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: go back to Esterbrooks for a second.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: Not to be confused with easter Line.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: No. So, Esterbrooks claimed to have split a marine lieutenant
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: who will call jonesy into two personalities under military intelligence oversight.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: Jones A or Oswald A was programmed with pro Communist views,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: given a dishonorable discharge, and infiltrated Communist circles.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 4: Does that sound familiar to anybody?
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: Does to me?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Jones B or Oswald well be? The original personality could
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: be accessed via hypnosis for debriefings. This served as a
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: model for fake defectors or provocateurs, who Oswald has.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 4: Been both used as being jo Mm hmm.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: What else?
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: He discussed creating hypnotic couriers and counterintelligence agents for the military. Again,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: you don't need to create assassins all the time, Joe.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: If you're trying to get a covert message to somebody
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: in another country that you can't call or you can't
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: communicate electronically or write a letter to or something like that, yeah.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: Go through official channels if you will, right.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: Right, You program some skafuza with a message right, you're
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: tell them, Okay, you know you're gonna get We're gonna
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: give you a free vacation to England.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: Joe, are you in all expensive?
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: Paid? Buddy?
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: Are you in?
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: Probably?
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: I'll even pay for meals.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: I'll put you up at a really shitty hospital, but
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: I'll pay for your meals.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: No, you gotta make it at least four star.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: Bro, how about a shitty airbnb that'll do nice.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: We'll see, we'll settle, but you'd probably go right, So
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: we give you a vacation. You don't think nothing of it.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: And you know you've been going to the doctor because
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: you fucking knee hurts the past couple of weeks. You
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: go in there and you know, knees not really getting
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: no better, or maybe it is.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 4: You keep going back to the doctor, and.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: While you're at the doctor, this doctor is programming you,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: but you don't remember it right. So then you go
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: on a vacation to England. And once you once you
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: get there, you're picked up by a car. Well, this
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: is the guy who needs to get the message. And
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: he turns around. He says, mashed potatoes, and all of
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: a sudden, you yes, mashed potatoes. What's the message, the
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: message is, you know whatever the message is, you know me.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: You must be so and so at seven pm by
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: the giant ferris wheel down by the Thames River.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: Right, because you've been programmed once you hear mashed potatoes
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: to then repeat right, all.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Right, gravy right, then you just don't remember what you
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: just told me and you're back to normal and you
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: think nothing.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: Else of it.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: So it doesn't necessarily have to be for assassination. Use
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: The implications of what can be done with the hypnosis
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: are staggering and frightening and should be. I mean, this
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: is the stuff that the government doesn't want to tell you.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: But if in the wrong hands and the wrong doctors
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: are the wrong person who knows what they're doing with hypnosis,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: they can seriously screw with people. You can make a
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: man cheerion candidate.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 4: You can do it.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: It's possible. It's been done and they don't remember anything.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: And it's craziness, Jo craziness, craziness.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 7: Let's see, uh, James said, when just began listening live,
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 7: when was this And I believe he's referred to operations
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 7: shocker and that would have been in the fifties.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: But by the end the end of fifties by the.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 8: FBI, yeah, not the CIA, correct, Yeah, and.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 4: It was done with the cooperation of the military. It's crazy.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: Things that are.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: Immoral about it, right, But if you look at it
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: from a government point of.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 4: View, or an immoral point of view.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: Or in nationals Yeah, when you say governmental, you mean
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: like national security point of view, right.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean why wouldn't you use these techniques? You
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: basically have an endless supply of plausibly deniable skuffuses.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: Yes, and you're talking about inmates, you're talking about unwitting people,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: you're talking about people with possibly mental issues.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you see it to this day if you
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: look at some of these freaking celebrities that are out there,
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, look at how much say fuck up Britney
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: Spears in the head.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: Oh I wish you know what before you set Britney Spears,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: I was just about to say.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: You know, are Kanye West or these people that for
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: whatever reason get messed with you know they what and
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: whatever the reason? Who knows Britney Spears better example, I believe?
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: But yes, yeah, I mean you can see how some
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: of this stuff could be accomplished in a very covert
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: manner by a simple handler, right, who can orchestrate certain things.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: Because these celebrities they never do anything for themselves. They
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: don't go to their own doctors, they don't go to
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: their own appoyments. They tell them they're fucked up in
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: the head.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 4: Here's some drugs.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: You need to talk to this psychiatrist. You need to
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: go to this doctor. You need to do this, you
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: need to do that next thing. You know, they're fucking right, right.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: Agents are pretty much running that. You don't think. Just
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: to use the example of Britney Spears, she's making her
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: own doctors waits right, she's having assistance or other people
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: do it so to have some people inserted in this
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: And I know this sounds really cospiratorial, but when you
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: think about how she was the most influential pop star
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: in the world, you can see how something like that
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: could be.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: Possible right in the day, Like with John Lennon, they
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: just kill you. Yeah, it can just make you off
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: your fucking rocket, right, you know, Oh, look at her.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: She's shaved all her fucking hair off and she's beating
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: people with an umbrella. You know, like, what the hell? Yeah,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: even now she's on Instagram, like dancing half naked all
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: the time doing dumb weird shit, you know what I mean, Like,
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: I don't how can you let this.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 4: Girl get a dui? I mean you got bodyguards.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just the whole thing is crazy, right,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: But even like looking at more topical things like this
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: whole Oliver Tree thing right like, and you think, well,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: how could somebody possibly, you know, kill this guy, whether
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: somebody on the ground with a rocket launcher in Brazil,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: you know, blow up in a helicopter. Well not necessarily.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: All it would take is for somebody to get a
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: hold of that helicopter pilot right, hypnotize them to.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 4: You know, sabotage the flight.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, you don't have to worry
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: about it raising this guy's memory because he ain't.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 4: Gonna have one.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: And somebody's flattered all over the street. So you can
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: see how they can take people out just by using
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: stuff like this, right, all this unexplainable behavior from people,
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: you know, like just weird anomalist stuff that doesn't make
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: any sense to us as what a sane person would do.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: You know, suddenly, when you look through the lens of
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: possibly they're being affected in some type of psychological way.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, you do that lens things make a little
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: more sense.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 4: But call me a conspiracy theorist if you will tell.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: Allegedly, someone in the comments when we played the lunar
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: video said, you guys are now verified conspiracy theorists, and
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: I said, I think we were before, but.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, oh we're verified.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: All right, we're verified.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 4: Now you ain't heard nothing yet.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we go nuts on members only, so become a member.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: But yeah, man, it's true. And I do believe a
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: lot of these psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists are some type of cutouts,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: and I think they are in situations where they can
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: influence the most influential people. I don't think that has
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: changed now. Are they in cutouts or cutouts? Are they
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 3: not as obvious as Sidney Gottlieb was? No, But I
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 3: do think it still happens.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know when you look at you know,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: certain folks on alive in themselves out there, like.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 4: You know, Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: You know, uh, to name your celebrity, okay, John McAfee, Yeah,
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: name your celebrity, you know, like just Chris Cornell for instance.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got he's got a loving wife, he's
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: got kids, he loves to death, he's had an amazing career,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he decides to hang
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: himself one night in the bathroom after a show.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 4: Now, sure, does it ever happen that way?
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but generally you gotta be a lot your life
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: has to be a lot more fucked up than that
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: to do something that drastic. I mean, I don't know.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not in these people's heads, but you could understand
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: if he was feeling some kind of way, some kind
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: of depressed or needed psychiatric help, and supposedly working on
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: some kind of video to expose child trafficking or whatever
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: where they would want to take this guy out, he
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: could be programmed to do that to himself at some point.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you gotta have an open mind when
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: you look at this. Don't put it past or don't
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: think the you know, the CIA or or some other
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: secret government organization would be above doing this in any
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: shape or form. Right, It's been done before, and I
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: guarantee it's still going on now.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 4: I guarantee you, Joe.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: They are still using remote viewers, even though they say
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: they're not. I guarantee you there's still experimenting on unwitting subjects,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: even though they say they're not, and I'm sure they
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: know a hell of a lot more than they're telling us,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: of course, even though they say they're not, one hundred
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: thousand percent just saying yes, yeah.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: Who was that celebrity that drowned in his hot tub
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: last year?
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: Matthew Perry? Yeah, friends, Yeah, yeah, that was.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 3: A weird one. Although he had his issues, so who knows.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: But don't take a hot ub by yourself.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: Don't take what kenn of me.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he sunk down in a k hole he just
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: couldn't climb out of. I think that might be a
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: legitimate one.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: I think Kirk Cobain probably a legitimate one.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Right, uh m, not so much.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: There's there's a conspiracy there, There's there's questions being asked
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's always questions.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Personally. Here's what I think happened to Kirk Cobain.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, let's hear it. Let's hear it all right.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: He escaped from the reheab right. He hops on a plane,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: gets trying to get the hell away from Courtney Love.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: He goes back home to Seattle. He's hanging out with
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: all his drug buddies. We're in the basement getting fucked up,
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: and whether by.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 4: Accident or by purpose, he.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: Takes a little too much or gets hot shot at
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: too much, or something happens.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: They panic, They're like, fuck, what do we do? And
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: they take him upstairs to the to the greenhouse, shove
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: a shotgun in his mouth. Didn't say he killed himself.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: Mhm.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: Plant the note that they found up in the bedroom
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: and call itists that word.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: I can't say.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I'm not too familiar with it. But
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 3: obviously we know he had he had problems, but I
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 3: I you know who knows. I mean, he was very influential.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: And when you got some influential.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 4: Voice of a generation type people, and he was.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: Certainly one of them.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, anyways, we digreatet.
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 4: We digress.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: This is podcast.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 3: So let me ask you, Lee Harvey, as we get
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: back to the subject, Lee Harvey Oswald, Yes, Manchurian candidate
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: or not? And if i'll ask a part b to that,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 3: if he was not a Manchurian candidate, we're talking nineteen
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: sixty three, could he have been exposed to a LSD
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: and atsugi or be possible Skuffuzeri and hypnotism with David
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 3: Ferry either in April sixty three or in August September.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: I think it goes back even further than that. Well,
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: we're talking about it, sugi. You know, if the right
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: people understand and see that if Oswald is legitimately studying Russian,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: reading Russian literature, you know, becoming interested in Marxism or
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: communism or whatever you want to call it, and if
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: the right person, if it came to the right person's attention,
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: they could maybe think and formulate a plan of how
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: they can use this guide to their advantage. Right. And oh,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: by the way, he just happens to be stationed at
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: the place where we just got a ship pile of
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: LSD over here and refrigerator. Right. I'm just saying, Do
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: I think that he was a programmed Manchurian candidated assassin
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: who was up on the.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 4: Sixth floor pulling the trigger?
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: No, I don't, but he could have been influenced or
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: hypnotized or whatever you want to call it, to be
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: a key part in pulling off the operation and diverting
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: attention to himself unwittingly in the process by Hey programming
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: him to order a rifle, program in him to pretend
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: to be pro Castro, program in him right to take
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: his rifle to work and leave it on the sixth
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: floor type of thing, program in him to do whatever
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: he was going to do when he left his rooming house.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: And if anybody gets in your way, they need to
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: be eliminated.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 4: Type of thing.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, there's questions abound everywhere, right,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: Do I think he was a man cheerion candidate kind
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: of like see your Hand? No? No, I think See
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: your Hand was something different, like he was legit like programmed,
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: a programmed Patsy top to bottom, no question in my mind.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: I agree Oswald is a little bit more complex.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 3: I agree, and I agree with most of what you said.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 3: I think if if he was exposed to any of this,
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 3: it would have been an at sugih in preparation to
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 3: be a false defector in terms of nineteen sixty three.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, that's that gets really complicated.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: I don't think what you said is crazy. I'm just
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: not there at that. I know, who've gotten super conspiratory
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: all in this episode. So I'm gonna bring us back
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: a little bit.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: But I.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 3: Think, if anything, he could have been influenced. But whether
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 3: it had to do with hypnotism or LSD when you're
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: thinking about the summer or fall of sixty three, or
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 3: like you said, bringing the rifle into the building or
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 3: doing something, I think he was just somethingles ol skuffoozery.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 3: So that's where I kind of land on it. But
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 3: I think it's possible that in the past he was influenced,
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: and he would have been. He had the type of history, right, mother,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: who's crazy?
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: You know, A programmed They could just be hypnotized to
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: be pushed.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 4: In a certain direction.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: You know, right, you're becoming more disgruntled with the American
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: way of life. You know, Hey, you just got back
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: from Russia. You loved it there, you know. I mean,
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: you can just push someone in a certain direction. You
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: don't have to program then to do things. But if
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: you're creating a Patsy, right, not necessarily an assassin Patsy,
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: but just a Patsy, that's a whole lot easier than
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: I think programming an assassin, because you're just slightly pushing
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: them in a certain directions, influence in their mind, but
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: that I'm even realizing it correct.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 3: I completely agree with that, But I'm just talking like
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: in terms of like hypnotism, in terms of influence and
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: and and this programming and reinforcement of these you know,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: oh kshar is like it has the new you know,
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: perfect idea of communism type of thing. Like I think
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: that's more something I can get behind, you know, And
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: that makes if that makes any sense.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: If David Ferry wasn't involved in the whole all of this,
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: and it'd be much easier to dismiss this theory for me.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: But because you have somebody like him with the past
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: to being a master hypnotist and knowing what they can
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: do without drugs, right, because you know this guy in
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: the booster money thing, he wasn't on drugs, right, He
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: was just deemed to be susceptible to hypnosis.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 3: Nor do I think Lee was on dony drugs.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: No, you didn't even drink he did. Well, well, I'll
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: let you and you feel stuck. He's saying they went
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: out for a beer after the radio appearance, which is odd.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: And we also have that instance of Oswald going into
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: the hive. It was the assistant DA's office in New
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: Orleans and asking a lawyer or a judge or something
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: in there about that if LSD was.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 4: Illegal.
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: I do remember having that document.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 3: I do remember that too, but it.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: Was a story of the person. He's like, yeah, it
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: was very odd. You know, Oswald came in here and
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: he is asking about LSD and.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 3: It wasn't Alexander because he was the head DA right,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 3: well that's Dallas. Oh okay, let's see if we can
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: find that document for part two on Wednesday.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, why don't you Okay, well, why don't you all right, folks,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: that's going to wrap us up for tonight. We hope
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed the show and we will be back.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 3: Yes, have a very happy Fourth of July weekend if
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 3: you are American, if you were in Canada, we are
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: probably frowned on and hope you have a good time.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 3: I'm going to Scudado here and there you go.
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: Quick?
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 3: Is it this weekend?
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: Bad faith actors with questionable credentials but also frowned upon
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: in Canada? Yes, don't blow off any body parts this weekend.
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: Be safe out there. Don't do their dumb shit as
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: we celebrate our independence from the evil country of England.
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: Two fifty.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: You know what I learned to d Joe what George
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: Washington was black? It was Tim's Jefferson and so was
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: that was Enter Hamilton. It's a it's a it's a
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: big conspiracy. They've been hiding it from us for centuries.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: But don't take my word for it. Do do your
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: own research.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 3: Okay, I know Jefferson definitely fathered U a bastard that was.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: Black?
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: Well did he? Or was it because he was already black.
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying they didn't have twenty three. History has
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: been altered. They could look like all these important people
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: in history were white people when that's not necessarily the case.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: If you go back and read contemporary biographies of these people, Joe,
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: it's clearly states in there that George Washington was a
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: melanated man, a swarthy, melanated man.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 3: I'm saying, wow, haven't heard that one before.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: You're welcome, go down that rabbit hole and grab the
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: damn dog.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 4: Why don't you.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 7: For the record, but he said, come to Bourbon Street
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 7: and I'll show you what I think.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 4: Ruby Rubby.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 9: Hey, yep, that's it for tonight, folks, have a great weekend.
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 9: We will see you next Wednesday or possibly before that
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 9: for some ramblings and the book review whatever, But part
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 9: two of MK Ultra next Wednesday.
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: If you not already remember, please become one so you
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: like this episode on your way out the door, subscribe.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 4: If you not subscribe, what are you doing?
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 3: Happy hundred, twenty five hundred subscribers.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 10: Oh yeah, happy twenty five hundred, Happy four hundred, happy
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 10: twenty five hundred, my last ramblings. Yeah, okay, check it
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 10: out if you haven't, and we'll see you next time.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: Peace, Thank you everyone. M.