Latest / Coaches Rising / 274 - Christina Congleton: The Edge of Developmental Psychology

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274 - Christina Congleton: The Edge of Developmental Psychology · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: welcome back to the coaches rising podcast.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Today I am joined by Christina Kongleton and we're going to be talking about some of the big ideas in her book getting over ourselves, moving beyond the culture of burnout, loneliness and narcissism.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in a sense we're going to be making sense together of the journey we've both been on over these last year's
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about the metacrisis, we'll talk about how we've made sense of modernity, neoliberalism, some of the economic theories that have influencing the crises that we face in our times.
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about what that means for the work we do in coaching and the role of developmental psychology, Indigenous wisdom and other ideas that help us move through these times.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Christina is a professional coach.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: She coaches through her practice, acts on leadership, working with managers and seesweet executives, she holds an EDM in human development and psychology from Harvard University and a BA in bio-psychology and creative writing from Oberlin College.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive in.
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the podcast with Christina Congleton.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Christina, our little preamble, our little check-in had me really excited to record this conversation with you.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So could you, well, first of all, how are you?
• 1:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess I'm all the things.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we, you mentioned as we're coming in, just like we were talking about the state of the world, right?
• 1:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really good, personally, I'm very grateful for my life and my work and all these things.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm troubled, I'm challenged in the unknown in so many ways.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay place to be, and actually I want to be with more people in this space.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm really good and it's early in the morning for me, so I'm starting my day this way, and I'm glad to see you.
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so much from what you just shared there that resonates with me.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 2:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Could you say to people listening just a little just in a couple of sentences or now a few more like, what are you up to, like, who are you?
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I have found myself in this life to be a leadership coach and that is what I do day in and day out.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm often coming in with, you know, bigger organizations or consultancies to offer coaching to leaders.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I work a lot in in businesses and I've done work in government and nonprofit and all of that.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So my days are a lot of one-on-one meetings sometimes working with groups, sometimes doing a little teaching or facilitation, and I'm a wife and a mother.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's actually the bedrock of my life.
• 3:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: As many people will probably relate to.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I got the opportunity to write this book.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess to say something, the book, we'll talk about a bit today, called Getting Over Ourselves, which will unpack what that means.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it doesn't mean get over yourself, get over it.
• 3:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the intention there.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little more playful, actually, how I think of it.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: But my background,
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I studied biosecology and college, I grew up in Maine and then went to Oberlin College and I studied biosecology and creative writing, which was a cool combination.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I worked in brain imaging labs early in my career.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I actually got to like scan scan people's brains and
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I was doing that in part because I've always really been interested in human development, human potential, which I hope we're actually going to get to pack unpack in this conversation because it's, I think of it differently now than I didn't, in my early 20s.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I studied adult development in graduate school at Harvard,
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: and moved more fully into leadership coaching.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But actually trained as a coach in my mid-20s when I was in the field of brain imaging research.
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of developing those capacities as a practitioner while still in science.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So getting to write a book was really exciting to kind of bring together everything I knew and was seeing and kind of go to the edge for me.
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: which is what the offering of the book is.
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Something you said there, I want to actually pick up on and I know we'll probably talk about how you see human potential unfolding and we'll get into that in more detail maybe later in the conversation because I want to kind of set more context for that, but you just said like I see human potential is something different than I used to.
• 5:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you see it
• 5:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 5:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would there bring in something from developmental psychology.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that?
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just give us a kind of sense of how, how has your view changed on what human change was?
• 6:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So something have become aware of.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are different ways that when we're talking about this adult developmental psychology, just to be specific, it's their models that I've explored in my life and in graduate school and with coaches rising because you all have done beautiful courses on developmental coaching, right?
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the work that came out of Love and Gerr and Susan Cookroyder and Robert Keygen, of course, in Jennifer Garvey Burger, the beautiful Jennifer Gimmie Burger, who's who I know you interviewed recently.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And something that, well, one thing, so in writing the book, I wanted to
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: include those models and that knowledge of what I would say specifically here is Western developmental psychology.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's particularly applicable to, um, kind of, you know, people use this term weird, right?
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think the weird world needs to get weirder, but we, um, you know, why educated industrial and I forget the rest, but, um, a lot of people probably who are listening to this conversation.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: that that model is really valuable, I think, to the Western trajectory of development and can help us with our Western modern minds.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are different ways that those models are depicted.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: They can be depicted like a ladder, right?
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's the,
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: probably well known to many spiral upwards spiral of development that I think is interesting in that it combines like cycles with linearity, right?
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you think of a spiral, it's like a cycle that's going somewhere, so it kind of brings
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe more ancient census of time as a cycle, it brings in that like linearity that really came in strongly with the Enlightenment in the 16 and 1700s, but then the model.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: and metaphor, right, because these models, these ways of depicting our teachings in a sense.
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: The one that has really captivated me is the arc, which really is attributed to Susanne, Susanne Cookroyder, and is coming out in different ways.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when I started to look at that arc, if we think of the vertical axis,
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: access in that as individualism, right?
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like we come, we, if we, when we think of Western development, it's like we, we appreciate, we start as this dependent being and we gain our independence and our, um,
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: social structures and systems really encouraged that.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's actually gotten a little out of hand, which we'll talk about in the last 40 odd years.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's this encouragement toward independence.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And at the height of that arc, we're kind of at the heart
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a certain expression of being a human being.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But as that art continues, we slide back down the other side.
• 10:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I say, and I say in my book, there's a way that the invitation is to begin sliding however awkwardly down the other side of that arc into our interdependence, our entanglement,
• 10:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: um, our, um, the limits of our self-authority and self-authorship and to really come back down to earth.
• 10:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that I think is a huge part of the, um,
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: the invitation of our times, especially for those of us who are really steeped in this western modern at this point hyper individualized culture.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Another word that comes to mind is like deconstructing the sense of self that we've constructed on the way up of that arc.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you said, these times are an invitation into that move and you know, I kind of hyper-individualized
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: societies in the West has been a topic of our podcast quite a bit recently and what does that mean for our workers' coaches and our field?
• 11:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 11:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Could you say more about, I'm sure we're going to talk, we're going to go into this territory of developmental psychology and this arc more.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: But why do you think these times are in invitation into that, you know, sliding down that arc?
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why is it happening?
• 11:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or why do I think that?
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in a sense, like, because that, you said, I think you said, like, these times feel like they're in invitation to move down that arc.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If I had heard you write, but maybe I heard it wrong.
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that somehow resonates for me.
• 12:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, but I wonder, I wonder what you feel these times are in invitation.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I was thinking about this draw, one thing I want to say is that, and it actually brings up a motion for me that it's an invitation and can be felt as such, and that's quite inviting for some of us, and then for others, it is a situation of survival, right?
• 12:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what I'm naming here is, I'm naming privilege in a sense.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think it's good actually to contextualize ourselves, right, and acknowledge that, and I don't, you know, we get to see if you're in talk about this, and I'm not trying to shame us, right?
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think this is a beautiful, this is an important, beautiful conversation, but I want to say, for some people, it's not an invitation.
• 13:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is, the worlds are already on fire.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: The seas are already rising.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I think to actually feel that and acknowledge that is important because we're kind of still in this place as far as I can see in the industrialized west where we're kind of it's kind of a choice at this time.
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a choice whether or not we feel the ground under our feet.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: have a sense of like we find ourselves kind of suspended in the air in a way and there these really interesting things happening where now some people are like hey let's merge with AI and just like totally dissociate into technology and not have to be here and like maybe we'll just go into the matrix or whatever you know I mean let's kind of like it's kind of a funny way to say it but
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that are made, I think what I feel called into and what moves my heart and has actually brought about so much expansion and more relaxation for me is to really start to get
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: to really start to recognize like where it's all one of a very diverse one thing.
• 14:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like we're all just one thing.
• 14:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But like we're not separate.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're part of the ecosystem, you know, and I think this concept will be familiar to a lot of people listening, but to really start to recognize that,
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: in a deeper, felt, more lived way.
• 15:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying I have that all figured out.
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not living some pristine, perfectly ego-aligned life.
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I actually really want to be clear about that.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in the tension of it.
• 15:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to really start to feel that belonging, actually, that comes with responsibility and care for our home
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: for the animals and the rocks and and not responsibility like put the weight on our shoulders, but actually the the love and reverence and and what we want to give when we recognize that.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think there's an invitation there.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's very beautiful for for humanity, especially those of us that are kind of find ourselves quite far from the ground in some ways.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm kind of sort of tuning into the collective and the individual, in the sense of, you know, one sense we're talking about each of our own individual journeys through our lives as we.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, as we become independent and then potentially become very interdependent and we open into that.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But also there's this collective sense right now.
• 16:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's very common phrases of, um,
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: time between worlds, liminal times.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's, you know, we first spoke a year ago, and I think it's even more palpable now that we're in a, you know, it's just very accepted in common.
• 16:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not in mainstream media, yeah, but that we're in a period of like tremendous transformation change, it's very destabilizing, you know, confronting and challenging,
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: but also remarkable.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important not to only put kind of negative labels on it.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a collective element to this, which I think is pointing to what you're saying.
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a cultural worldview that's being rocked with institutions inside of that that are being rocked and that's confronting but also as in our own individual lives when something happens and it's very challenging but opens up a potential for us to mature is the same possibility here
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I'm tuning into, and as I hear you speak, like it reminds me of this.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if you want that.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I questions blah, blah, but I don't know if there's anything you want to share when I just said.
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I just add that while the conversation we have here might be different in many ways from what we see in the mainstream in a sense.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: people know this.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: People feel like, you know, you go to the grocery look around and yeah, we're all like going through our lives, but I think it's quite common that people feel some sense of destabilization.
• 18:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like we, we see symptoms of this right to name two things.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: when the general population is pulled, I think this is probably kind of US-centric, this data, but trust and institutions has just gone down decade after decade.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is, you know, we're seeing this, right?
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing this really, uh,
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I mean, it's strange in some ways.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, the political scene, I think everyone's kind of like, what's going on?
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can also get into certainties about it, right?
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people are like, well, you know, in the US who are the Republicans, who are the Democrats?
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, which side am I not?
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on, right?
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that's actually about widely.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why these conversations, I think,
• 19:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: are even more valuable, and like another data point, actually a lot of the things I talk about in my book, we're now talking about, you know, pandemics or, you know, crises of loneliness of stress in the general population.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're feeling it, people are feeling it and what actually excites me as to like interrogate it and be like, what's true, what's really going on here.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's another part of the invitation, I think, um, to, and I think it's exciting.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like as, as coaches were necessarily going to, well, actually, it's a, I wouldn't recommend sitting down with your client being like, you know, this is what's happening.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And did you see this thing about the system, like that's not really what we do as coaches, but I think if we're more informed, if we're more.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: aware, discerning, it's going to affect our own development and way of being and the way we can see and be with our clients.
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 20:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so this is, um, I think this is a big theme in our field right now in terms of what's our role as a coach and do we,
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: coach within a particular worldview which may be, you know, collapsing, coming, you know, breaking down in ways.
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or do we have one foot in what's emerging and one foot in what's declining?
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's, so I'm seeing a big theme now around agency, so, and I think it's connected to what we're talking about in that coaching is tended to, but perhaps coaching in some ways has, um,
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: being part of this hyper individualistic worldview.
• 21:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really about coaching the individual you, your their separate from me.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: We atomize leadership as if it's somehow separate from the system or the team and it's three in one person.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can see how some of these
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: beliefs are encoded within the way we coach and what we see human potential is.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you see now ways of coaching, which I think addressing that, like people like Peter Hawkins talking about coaching relationships, the relationships between things, not the things themselves or what does the world want us to talk about in our coaching session today.
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that this team, this team of agency is a part of this, so I'm seeing people at Benito Wright talking about post-formal actors or Peter Limberger who's talked about agentic sages.
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the marrying, which is not separate, never was separate, but bringing the inner and outer together, you know?
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the inner work and...
• 22:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, learning how to design new worlds, ontological design, so I kind of forgot why I started going off on that one, but I think it's, I guess it's speaking to, to, you know, our industry itself connecting what we've been talking about to our industry and how things are going to change and the role of a coach, you know, so maybe, and I've talked a lot here, so I'll
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: whilst we're not here to impose our agenda on our clients.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we have a certain role to at least be able to situate our coaching conversation within this wider world.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And our clients are bringing it in anyway, you know?
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're bringing it in anyway.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So one, one thing I'd say,
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually quite simple to just name that that has become so important to me is that to to to to really try to understand our client and also their context.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we're coaching a fish, this common analogy like the fish and water, if we're coaching the fish, and the fish has to go back into water, that, for example, there could be a situation where a fish has to go back into very toxic water, right?
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Organizations have their beauty and their difficulties, right?
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like every organization is toxic, but I do think the seeing is important
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, if we've had amazing openings, the person is feeling themselves more.
• 24:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're feeling the world more, which I actually think is really important.
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think is one of the very important keys to our times.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they're going in and they're feeling the difficulty of the system, their more aware of things that are hurting them.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's also part of the dynamic, right?
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the systemic lens and like really trying to also understand what's going on in the world.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are the underlying assumptions of the economy, for example?
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And how does that come through and shape us in our individual lives and compel us in certain ways?
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are the limitations there?
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I do think,
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I was this UN environment program report just came out and it's interesting, you know, like a lot, like a 287, I'm actually looking at something on my screen 287 multi-disciplinary scientists from 82 countries came together and and they're talking about like things things have to change.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's 1200 pages I haven't read the whole thing, but we know that things are going to need to change.
• 26:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Probably some of it's going to be easy and some of it's going to be really hard, but to to really try to see our client, try to see our client's entanglement, right?
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for their our entanglement with all of that and try to just try to understand that.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think without moving quickly to
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: strong, strong positions.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, discernment and moral clarity is really important.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not saying don't discern what's right or wrong, but to really try to see, like, what's the bigger picture here?
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And to see ourselves in context is just a really simple, powerful,
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the entanglements or the contexts that were sat within that you think are important for us to begin to recognise?
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In a sense, like the water that as fish were swimming in, and I'm thinking perpetual growth, a common kind of deep belief that
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: not often questioned, particularly in a mainstream, but yeah, what do you think, and you've mentioned like Neil liberalism, maybe that, the notion of what the self is, what it means to, could you say some, what do you think of some of the important entanglement we should name?
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've just named some huge things right there,
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: um, perpetual growth and what the individual is.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's, and maybe we can, we can move this into neoliberalism.
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think first I want to say that, um,
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I think there are really important beautiful conversations opening up about capitalism, for example.
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And even when I say that, like, this past summer, I had the chance to be at this small conference and someone had presented and who was an economist and I was really curious and I was like,
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just loved a big question and I was like, do you think that there's anything better than capitalism and the person immediately started talking about communism and why that wasn't a good system and I was like, oh, I'm not talking about communism, you know,
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I do think versus good just to see our knee jerk reactions and our reactivity that can come up and just talking about hey let's just talk about the system that's going on now let's just let's just get clear about what it is and how it works.
• 29:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: growth, border after, border, right, that it requires more extraction and more consumption.
• 29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we won't get into the monetary system.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can go deep on this and really try to understand it, just to get clear, right?
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how does this work?
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what I can say from the
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are assumptions about what a person is in our economic system, and one is that, I guess there are different ways to see this, how it, a couple understandings I can say is that, one where we're self-interested, we're out for ourselves, so there's a way that that is an assumption and therefore our economic system asks us to be out for ourselves.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and that resources are scarce, that they're scarcity, and that we need to compete.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, these are named in economic classes, like a university.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's not...
• 30:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's not a secret, so can we recognize the assumptions and work with those?
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a big topic, but I do think that
• 30:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like for me, in my interrogation in the book, what I was really looking at is what's my conditioning, not just from my family system, right?
• 30:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But these broader waters in which we swim, the assumptions of the economy that I'm living in, the government.
• 31:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: where I live, what's the bigger global context?
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And how does that shape me?
• 31:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'll stop there and see, I've said some things.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much more to it, but let's see where we want to go.
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you can see how, I mean, first of all, I can feel
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: the viscerality of those ideas and how they show up in my life and how there's actually attention in my own life between competing for resources, like having enough money and living in a system that almost requires a lot of money to live in it.
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the desire to kind of break free from that, even though I don't know what it would break free into.
• 32:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not, it's very easy to get very utopian and kind of critical of something like capitalism.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you can see that it's, you know, a kind of crony capitalism right now.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, you know, I don't know what alternatives there are, although I'm now this is interesting as a theme, which is unsurprising, this theme of alternatives to capitalism is starting to come up a lot, and I've had guests on the podcast recently, you said, oh, you know, there are, there are very credible alternatives out there that are well researched, you know,
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't know that.
• 32:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's good to know that there's a sounds like there's a movement growing.
• 32:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But my guess my point is, in a sense, you're highlighting the way our systems designed and what it's like to live inside of it.
• 33:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is, I think again, why I think these conversations
• 33:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we're not coaching in the world of like 15 years ago.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think if we talked about this 15 years ago, first of all, no one would really have cared, and probably it wouldn't really have met a that much, or maybe 20 years ago, but you know, but now it's like that you can feel it.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is kind of coming to me around why I think agency and ontological design is is and you know, post formal actors, we need to write.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So people who can actually start to
• 33:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we talked about developmental psychology, what are the deep beliefs and structures of the way we govern and relate that I was subject to that I are being shaken that we're starting to see as an object, which gives us more possibility to design new worlds, you know, and actually that the leaders and executives that we work with, that I think is going to be
• 34:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: capacity in our times, you know, that we're all because of the uncertainty and rapid pace of change.
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have to become a lot more adaptable and that requires a certain spaciousness and maturity, a capacity to feel maybe new capacities that we have moved away from in modernity when we only use our rational minds to.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But also, yeah, real world tools to be able to design
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, and navigate in complex terrain.
• 34:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, I just want to name a couple things.
• 35:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know at least a little bit about some of the thinkers you've named and they're awesome.
• 35:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then like I think it's important to keep rounding out kind of the voices, you know, I think,
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I recommend people read.
• 35:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm reading right now Vanessa and Rihadi, or Vanessa Machado, to Olivia Rose, hospicing modernity, and now she has outgoing modernity.
• 35:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she brings such a powerful view.
• 35:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: as someone who, you know, is at a university in Canada and works deeply with Indigenous people in the Amazon, I believe.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So these, you know, and then I study, have studied a lot in the last couple of years, especially since I finished my book with Biola Come Lafay, who I know you've
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: part of part of what I'm seeing here is that I'm a little I think we I think you know design and like seeing solutions and alternatives is really good and exciting and it's great I think we also at the same time there's an important role of like being a little suspicious of ourselves and I kind of see that playfully to right like
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our modern minds will go for a clarity, we'll go for the next answer, right?
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll go for a bright shiny alternative that we get excited about.
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not like saying we can't do that or that's wrong.
• 36:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a lot of, we need to be very suspicious of ourselves and that's like, I call the book getting over ourselves
• 37:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: not to, and it's actually, it's really getting over like a much smaller sense of self.
• 37:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually getting over like this separate, you know, increasingly perfect kind of sense of self.
• 37:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I want to interrogate, not who we really are.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's something I want to say.
• 37:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's actually this much actually a much bigger potential for us when when that falls apart and when we when we know deep relationality when we.
• 37:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: when we know humility which is, and I describe this in my book, humility, if you look at the meaning of humility, it's not like, oh, I'm humble.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a big deal.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Humility comes from the root word for earth.
• 38:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It means to be of the earth.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It goes back to what I said earlier is actually
• 38:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so to, um, you know, to slide down that development or get our feedback down in the ground and like really listen to each other, um, see the the reactive parts of our self that might be going for solution, um, because at the people I trust the most these days are the people
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that we can fumble around a bit, you know?
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because the kind of heroic...
• 39:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: exciting, but also limited drive to, you know, have the next solution.
• 39:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not, again, like, I'm, you know, I think there's a lot of great stuff.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's regenerative economics, right?
• 39:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of beautiful stuff and we should be paying attention.
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, I say yes.
• 39:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yet there's something about the, the not knowing the fumbling and the stumbling the willing to be.
• 39:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: bio says this, the willingness to be not put together, but yeah.
• 39:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, this is, I think, another one of the, um, I can't remember what the word you used, but what this is another, I think, one of these ideas we've inherited, you know, about being clear,
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 39:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 39:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 39:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 39:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I love you bring this in, you know, and I can feel the, what is it, it's like,
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tempest some of the, the, the, the kind of zeal around, oh, designing new worlds, you know, because that could, that could all be co-opted by, you know, a kind of, um, the same, all the beautiful ideas that emerge that are, um, in response to the current worldview we have can be then consumed and co-opted by that, by the current worldview.
• 40:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, right there, that's what's happening.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's why I love people like Bio because he's just such a um
• 40:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't even know what the word is, but he speaks so beautifully.
• 40:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: He pulls the rug from under the feet of these attempts to do so.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what a, and he hasn't been co-opted into the, you know, he, so you should check out his writing and it's speaking.
• 41:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that was humbling for me this year to be on retreat and have the teacher hours with
• 41:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: point directly to my tendency to want to be even killed and put together.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how that's baked into the field of coaching too, you know.
• 41:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of coaches
• 41:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, certainly when you're like selling your coaching, you know, it's like I'm helping you to maximize your potential or get what you want to get clear to gain a sense of direction.
• 41:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, and those, again, it's like you say they're not bad, you know, it's not like we're throwing
• 41:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: to be suspicious and to recognize it.
• 42:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me say that to sit in not being put together on that retreat was just very challenging and yet.
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
• 42:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, to feel the the sense of light that it gets prior to our school, because it's like, wasn't like suddenly, oh, then I allowed myself not to be put together, and then I felt certainly better, you know, right?
• 42:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what I'm trying to say is that was it there was a kind of beauty to it?
• 42:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: there was a poetry and a beauty and a love to it that was inherently fulfilling without, you know, trying to be put back together.
• 42:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is really important what you bring.
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's, you know, thank you for speaking to that and as well all of it and the part where it's like,
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'll fall apart and then I'll be perfect, right?
• 43:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, so it's really fascinating how like the logics, the logics have momentum, right?
• 43:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they neoliberalism and we can't unpack that for people because it's probably helpful, but neoliberalism is, it is a fascinating beast.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
• 43:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: The way it lures us back into its promises of perfect freedom and autonomy and certainty and a kind of perfection, a kind of idealism, the way it
• 43:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like what you name just there, it's like, like our, and we can see our mind do that and that's probably part of why you were able to actually be in the realness of it, right?
• 44:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to speak for you, but it's like to see like, oh, now my mind is like, okay, now we're going to fall apart and now now we'll have all the answers and I'll be so bright and shiny, but what's interesting is,
• 44:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: My experience, maybe I can, because this is more like the spiritual lens, reality is incredibly beautiful, right?
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, um, it's, um, like, and, you know, to, to go to something
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, yeah, I'm going to help you get what you want.
• 44:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where a good inquiry for a coach.
• 44:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we need to respect whatever the client puts on the table by the way, like there's really those humility and like, let's be with that and let's look at that.
• 45:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And not make assumptions about them, but at the same time to be in the question of, what does the person really want?
• 45:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do people really want?
• 45:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's
• 45:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: what's deeper in our hearts and souls, right?
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't think anybody wants to trash this place.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are, I don't think we want to be doing what we're doing right now.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So why are we doing it?
• 45:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think to feel in those deeper questions are compelling and beautiful and need to be very humbling to us as coaches.
• 45:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a beautiful trajectory as a coach.
• 45:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's very much both and I think another thing that's coming to me here is how even our stories of collapse actually co-opted into
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: our own kind of Western view of the world, so a mentor of mine who lives in the East who's very well, just a brilliant person and very
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: profound thinker and well-connected was, you know, I was talking about Collapse and he said, well, that's a very like, that's a very monolithic view of Collapse and it's very typical of like the Western people I talk to who, because I live in the eastern is I, it's not it's it's
• 46:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: that we don't have the same atmosphere over here that you have in Europe.
• 46:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you look in this part of the world, there's a different atmosphere there.
• 46:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so he was pointing towards how there's, you know, there are areas around the world that I,
• 47:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to use the word rising and falling, but it's much more nuanced and yes, of course, we're all globally connected in a way that we've never been before in history and that's, you know, when it comes to the metacrisis, you know, global warming is not going to spare, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't think in terms of global regions and even it is regionalised.
• 47:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I think that got me loose in a little bit too.
• 47:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe this segue is as back to developmental psychology.
• 47:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how you see it being a supportive,
• 47:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of idea that points to our experience.
• 47:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a map, but it points to a territory.
• 47:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because even developmental psychology, we could kind of say, hey, and we've talked about this, haven't we, that this is a risen inside of a kind of Western mindset of what it means to be a successful human.
• 48:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are many other views on what it means to be human around the world, which actually maybe
• 48:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, actually have people live in a deeper harmony with the planet and there have been many challenges to the way we hold developmental psychology of how it views what a human is.
• 48:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But so I'm like, I'm like, I'm layering in a lot to this question of like how let's talk about developmental psychology and why it's an important view and idea.
• 48:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you already talked about it really and that there's this arc and so we've set that part up.
• 48:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we could, yes, new ones that a little bit more.
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 48:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess what's good to to name here.
• 48:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you did some podcasts on this.
• 49:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you've talked to Nora Bateson but I just want to like give credit where credits do.
• 49:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know Nora Bateson personally.
• 49:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I listen to
• 49:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Facebook posts that was like developmental models are colonial, period.
• 49:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 49:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 49:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you gen X even are connected to you, gen X, you know.
• 49:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And tried to get on the podcast.
• 49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: She just she was up for it, but then it just didn't happen.
• 49:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we can try again.
• 49:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 49:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that was so great.
• 49:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 49:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would definitely tune in.
• 49:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would encourage others.
• 49:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate.
• 49:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Noribates, and actually, yeah, anyway, she's doing all the warm data stuff.
• 49:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think actually, that's like sounds, I haven't done it, but it sounds so relevant to coaching, development, this kind of coaching that you and I are interested in.
• 49:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, you know, that, all that, I'm so grateful for all that, because it rocked my world.
• 50:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was at a place where I came back and, you know, I've studied developmental psychology, but I did, it's called the Art of Developmental Coaching that you all do at Coaches Rising.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did it again, and you had Tyson Young Kupport on, I love Tyson Young Kupport.
• 50:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's another, another amazing thinker that I would invite people to tune into.
• 50:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, he, like, he, he didn't, I think I'd like to hear him say more about developmental models now, like he said some things that I don't totally get his thinking is very critical, but, um, you know, our, our, our, our idealized things they need to be smashed right they need to be challenged.
• 50:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to, um,
• 50:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: interrogate them, and I think I was someone who was really into all that stuff, and I had kind of idealizations of their development and all this stuff, which I've kind of come to see as part of that achievers center of gravity, that is very strong in the world right now.
• 51:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 51:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Being a Sharmer uses this to be an Sharma who, am I getting her name right?
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: She comes on here a lot.
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's done a lot of work with you guys.
• 51:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she's a phenomenal practitioner.
• 51:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: She uses the arcan.
• 51:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for me to, so the colonial move is to to kind of try to have the single story and impose it everywhere, right?
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: um, which is kind of analogous to a lot of what's come out of western modern culture of like everybody should do it this way like this is the way and um,
• 52:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even saying that's all bad, but I do think we're at a time of reckoning with colonialism, right, with which you and I've gotten into recognizing our extractive practices, our kind of extractive competitive, you know,
• 52:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: he who has the most toys when he dies when's kind of grab.
• 52:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that developmental psychology, it's both the Andrei.
• 52:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It tells a beautiful story of forms of liberation of mind because you know, if we look at self authorship, we could probably some things probably go back even further
• 52:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I say, we definitely at least want to go back to the enlightenment because if you read like what is enlightenment by Kant, you know, he was, he was basically saying, hey, everybody's just like getting a doctor to answer these questions and, you know, having clergy answer these questions and, and, you know, just saying this book has all the answers.
• 53:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It, you know, um, it's like have the courage to use your own reasoning basically was the message of the Enlightenment and.
• 53:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: when I read about it, it feels like a super exciting time.
• 53:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I read about it a little in my book.
• 53:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: People were like discovering coffee in these cafes and friends and can you imagine like discovering coffee and things, the encyclopedia was this incredibly subversive book that was like smuggled in places.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we, if we can kind of feel, what that must have been like when people were,
• 54:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: like throwing off convention, right?
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing wait a minute, I want to find out for myself.
• 54:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this led to these scientific discoveries in different ways of organizing the economy and all of it.
• 54:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was, there's something beautiful about it, but then it also was in some ways a trajectory of further,
• 54:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: we're treating into rationality and separation and the separate self.
• 54:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we've kind of like, I think neoliberal ideology, this hyper individualism of today is like this crescendo of separation and individualism that we really wanna see clearly and feel into what we really want, and what's really true.
• 55:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing, like, how do we move into that more, you know, we talk about like, I don't know, pre-conventionals really fair, but like there's like a conventional mind, right?
• 55:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is just very prevalent in terms of the Western mind.
• 55:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's like something beyond that and what's calling to us.
• 55:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think...
• 55:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a both hand here.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So on the one hand, I think the way that these models have been challenged is that in some sense they've been encapsulated in that kind of mind, which says there's maybe the originators of the models didn't hold it like this, but the way they're interpreted is that there's this like linear
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: like linear graduate trajectory to our development and that we can, you know, through our work, manage that in a very step by step, kind of way.
• 56:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it ignores the kind of non-linear messy, unbidden,
• 56:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: nature of how we grow, you know, you said before, like actually periods of not being put together are part of that.
• 56:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So,
• 56:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess, because one of the, I got caught earlier on in my life immediately, which I think is probably true of most people.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, I want to, I want to develop to the end faster, you know.
• 56:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: How can I win this get to the end?
• 56:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're in a club together, Joel.
• 56:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I'm a cartoon member, I guess.
• 56:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, right there with you is all I want to say.
• 56:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was like, I see that in myself.
• 56:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 57:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the more I matured, the more I felt like I regressed down the model.
• 57:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I remember like a dear friend of mine saying, like, because Ken Wilbur as this, like, second tier notion.
• 57:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, we're second tier.
• 57:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember saying, like, I don't know about that.
• 57:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
• 57:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite a cool thing to say because,
• 57:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can get carried away with it.
• 57:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like, as I've gotten older, it's almost like I've gotten the opposite.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: That, that, that, that, like, down, down for that.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying all this is like, what do you mean by that?
• 57:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Down.
• 57:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's, yeah.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's true is, I've become, in a way, I was defended against my immaturity and had an inflated sense of my maturity.
• 57:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as I've actually matured, it's been a process
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: meeting my shadow, meeting all the parts of me that I wasn't that I didn't value, you know, there was a bypassing taking place.
• 58:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it, you know, it's not actually a regression, but it's a, you know, allowing in all the parts of me that weren't allowed to be here that I felt ashamed about or didn't like.
• 58:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is a like a long way round to
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and let me just say what the, because the question is almost like, yeah, maybe this is it.
• 58:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember someone saying to me, and I think this gets to something important in what we're saying.
• 58:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like,
• 58:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: like we can get caught in this idea that like I can grow myself, you know?
• 58:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 58:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
• 58:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm going to, okay.
• 58:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now I know about developmental psychology and I'm going to grow myself.
• 59:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But actually, like life is growing us, you know?
• 59:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like the inversion almost.
• 59:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like life is growing us all the time.
• 59:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: how could you separate yourself out from life to kind of grow yourself?
• 59:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a kind of misnomerance and I think it creates it accentuates that kind of like there's a separate me from the world and I can grow that separate me.
• 59:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know somehow disconnected from the world but actually
• 59:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: we're intimately into woven with our context and our lineage and our ancestors and our worldview and our families and that we are co-created, coreizing and growing all the time.
• 59:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when I heard Dave Snowden, who also has been critical of developmental models, but talked about Kegans,
• 59:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: stages as modulators of experience, which I just didn't understand what he was talking about.
• 1:00:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's partly because he tends to use quite obtuse language.
• 1:00:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes on purpose, maybe so that you can't just kind of grab it and appropriate it, but I think what I started to see was like,
• 1:00:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm arising in relationship to the world, rather than the world is created in relationship to me, then there are moments when I'm
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I experience modulates a kind of self-transforming jaw or a self-orthog, and the remunence when a socialized jaw arises.
• 1:00:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I guess this is like a long way on to saying, what is the impact of these developmental models and how can we hold them in a way that's
• 1:00:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: useful yet not kind of where we how where that we overreach with them or falling to some of the traps you know what what do you think is the yeah the invitation I mean big question right and I and yeah a beautiful quite yeah I'm just like at first I'm just like struck by the question and I'm in in the question
• 1:01:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, two things that are prompted by what you just said, like, um, I just want to say, I think, like, at this point in my life, I think the ultimate developmental move is to like nailing kiss the ground and let life have its way with us, right, with our hearts,
• 1:01:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: to let what we love and what we want to know and what we care about, like actually move us.
• 1:01:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that's kind of like, and you know, I'm being absolute care.
• 1:02:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: When I'm saying it's the ultimate development that I'll move, there are so many, right?
• 1:02:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do, I think that's a good message for us to hold.
• 1:02:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mean, try, like, just lay it on the ground.
• 1:02:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's something about that right now.
• 1:02:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like some kind of stupid, but it's really like, there is this way we need to humble ourselves.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one way I find the development on models really useful at this point for me is to actually it helps me see what keeps catching me.
• 1:02:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And and and and
• 1:02:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about, you know, Snowdance frame of like the modulators or the kind of, I don't actually know what I'm seeing when I say modulator, but I'm thinking of it.
• 1:02:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a poll, right?
• 1:02:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Willberg willberg use the terms center of gravity.
• 1:02:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's like a poll to these logics.
• 1:02:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, and here's where I can, you said something important before about the time between
• 1:03:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: My podcast that I've started that I'll invite people to is called Friends Between Worlds.
• 1:03:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of draws off of Zack Steins.
• 1:03:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: What he said about the time between worlds.
• 1:03:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So first, I think that that land of challenge of play, of helping each other through this kind of strange postmodern, whatever postmodern is going to be landscape.
• 1:03:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: is so important, but I think the model can also just help me see, um, you named it earlier.
• 1:03:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that achiever mindset.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what, you know, self-authored or achiever, um, first of all, it has its beauty to it.
• 1:03:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it has it's, um, it's greedy,
• 1:04:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It promises growth and, you know, being better than you are today and some kind of attainment, right, and, which, and being put together in a better, prettier, smarter, more coherent, you know, more powerful way where you're going to.
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: you're gonna be something, right?
• 1:04:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And to let ourselves slide and kind of slosh around and interdependence is not that.
• 1:04:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so when we catch that, I'm gonna develop like one thing I say about it's like we're trying to like get the, we're trying to step on the next wrong and we just keep, there's nothing there.
• 1:05:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of, we have to learn how to fall a bit.
• 1:05:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so the, you know, development can be very scary, like, running some of these fails of self image and idealization and, um, what we take ourselves to be that, um, that is separated from, you know, the glowing beauty of reality.
• 1:05:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: The glowing beauty must all of it challenge.
• 1:05:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:05:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Tom Murray's written really well on the premature deconstruction of our self, you know, that occurs in development because, you know, if we've not done certain, if we've not kind of integrated certain, it can kick up a lot basically, you know, if we, because,
• 1:06:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those, and this is again, like a really interesting question, and we probably would benefit from having someone like Suzanne Cookroy to with us, because I know she loves these kinds of conversations, on one hand, there's this sense of interdependency you're talking about, and so there's something very wholesome about,
• 1:06:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: recognising a move back into intimacy, like intimate flow with experience, with nature, with the world, with others.
• 1:06:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the, you know, of a hit Jennifer Garvey Berger talk about one of the, I don't know, of clicking down sides of the cell for the cell, but it can be, you know, you've constructed your own castle of who you are and what the world is in a some sense.
• 1:07:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so,
• 1:07:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:07:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can feel with my wife where if I'm in scones within myself, fourth itself, like, well, this is my thing, you know, here, and you're in your thing over there, there's a certain relationality that's missing and it's vulnerable to open into that relationality and be transformed together.
• 1:07:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also when I do that, it's incredibly, it feels much better, it feels a lot better than being in my castle.
• 1:07:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a beauty to the interdependence, but there's, you know, if you think about construct to where, like, that can be, it can be destabilizing, huh?
• 1:07:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, really like,
• 1:07:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this recognising the way I want, I want to construct what my world is and who I am in relationship to the world and that actually many of those constructs.
• 1:08:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess in a way this is kind of partly what we're talking about, isn't it?
• 1:08:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: They might not be, they're constructs, you know?
• 1:08:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're actually constructs and there are other constructs and there's an experience beyond constructs.
• 1:08:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So
• 1:08:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, anyway, I guess I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but yeah, you know, I can I say something in response to that.
• 1:08:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe maybe a critical question of our time is, like, what castles are really worth building?
• 1:08:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
• 1:08:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: What, um, because not all, not all cultures on this earth,
• 1:08:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, I'm just, I think one thing I think about our Western way of knowing, I guess, I guess I'm in the question of like, is, is self authorship, a gift, or an aberration, like I'm a mistake.
• 1:09:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, I think both of those are, probably too strong, but,
• 1:09:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, some cultures kind of teach about belonging and being part of things and reciprocity from the beginning of life.
• 1:09:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not to idealize anyone culture or like set some people like, there's this weird thing we can do really like, idealize, you know, indigenous culture or people, right?
• 1:09:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of dehumanize them in that, like these are other human beings.
• 1:09:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a reason why those world views are they're in that UN environment,
• 1:09:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: environmental program report like there's all these nods to like we need to listen to indigenous communities we need to pay attention locally and there's something to happening in this moment with humanity where people are being kind of pointed back to their their place on the earth.
• 1:10:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just kind of tying that in because
• 1:10:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: like self-authorships not a given necessarily.
• 1:10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think it's bad.
• 1:10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we talked about the, I talked about the online and met a bit, like it was this exciting thing that happened but then like I think we also can interrogate that a bit.
• 1:10:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of the work of Jean Gapser and Jeremy Johnson's book seeing through the world, I found that really powerful.
• 1:10:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually really recommended because
• 1:10:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: so had like a really beautiful view of development.
• 1:10:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you know if you called it that, but he talked about these mutations of consciousness.
• 1:10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it breaks out of the linear, when you start to see them as mutations, you break out of a linear
• 1:11:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: trajectory with them and he really honours the the the gifts of each mutation mythic magic modern and integral and his his notion of integral is much more
• 1:11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I find much more ecological and post-rational than I've seen in some of the other developmental models and I think in a way it's like a certain sensibility or yeah it's very kind of
• 1:11:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: holographic and visceral and ecological presence filled with presence and so I would recommend people listening to check out Jeremy Johnson's work because I think he's someone who's who's
• 1:11:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: work is like bridging some of the gap that bridging some of the bridges between the different perspectives that we're talking about.
• 1:12:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Alongside people at BIO and Nora Bates and these are all really really beautiful people to check out.
• 1:12:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: As we move to the end of our conversation I wonder if there's anything you want to add or anything we haven't named that's important.
• 1:12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess just I want to do, I do feel moved to say this because it's part of my own learning that I really do, I don't want to say this.
• 1:12:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really think we, like, I recommend that those of us who recognize our modern minds not try to cram other cultures into the developmental models, right?
• 1:12:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's just something I feel moved to say, like, I don't know the work that you're referring to, but I'm really, like, I feel the tragedy that has happened of Western thinkers,
• 1:13:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, kind of trying to fold and cram other cultures and into the models.
• 1:13:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just wanted to say that as like a caution.
• 1:13:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think it's good for us to like learn and I took a class.
• 1:13:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just recommend a class.
• 1:13:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I took a class with Dr. Lailadjun Johnston this year
• 1:13:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it?
• 1:13:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was about Indigenous worldviews, anyway, and I recommend Lila Junts, Ted Talk, and you know, I just, there's, there's like a posture of humility and learning that I just want to encourage in myself, and I want to offer to other people because I have, that's one thing I'm really clear with the developmental models is I'm not going to try to cram other people's cosmologies
• 1:13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's I kind of like take responsibility and guidance from it as a westernized person, right, who's kind of struggling with my modern mind and seeing its limits in the context of what's going on on the earth ecologically and socially in all of these things.
• 1:14:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just wanted to put those two
• 1:14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: play with at this time.
• 1:14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And well, and I think, I'm missing.
• 1:14:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wanted to say that.
• 1:14:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we're coming to the end of our time.
• 1:14:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: What else would we like to do here, Joel?
• 1:14:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe I love that you share that.
• 1:14:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a, I think, I really, really potent invitation.
• 1:14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe just to say, like, Greg, you know, can you tell us the title of the book again?
• 1:14:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And where can we find out more about your work?
• 1:14:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the book is called, getting over ourselves, moving beyond a culture of burnout, loneliness, and narcissism.
• 1:15:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I look a lot at kind of neoliberal ideology in that book, and leaning into developmental models to try to unpack that and understand that.
• 1:15:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And,
• 1:15:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: not offer solutions, but maybe like reorientations or different different beacons, maybe of lightness and darkness.
• 1:15:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: That might call us forward, because we tend to want to go towards the light and even that needs to be interrogated, right?
• 1:15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the book.
• 1:15:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 1:15:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love for people to read it.
• 1:15:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really want to be in conversation about it.
• 1:15:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can buy it, but you can also, I'm inspired by someone I had on my podcast, who said, ask your library to get it.
• 1:15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have, if you're in a place in the world where there are public libraries, ask your library, too, because that's there for the community.
• 1:16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a beautiful way, too.
• 1:16:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: so that's the book.
• 1:16:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also, I really want to let people know about my podcast that's just starting, as I mentioned earlier, it's called Friends Between Worlds.
• 1:16:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the podcast, I'm interviewing people I quote in the book.
• 1:16:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the book is, um,
• 1:16:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of, it's kind of a synthesis.
• 1:16:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I was seeing all these things and all these inputs were coming into my brain and I was seeing all these connections and it was my effort kind of organized it and say, whoa, I'm seeing all this and offer it and so I'm interviewing people I've quoted and I've only,
• 1:16:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of them's up, but probably another one will be up by the time this comes out.
• 1:16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've interviewed L.A.U.
• 1:16:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Satiswati.
• 1:16:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's a professor of women's studies, and she talks about social media, and neoliberalism, and some other things.
• 1:17:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Olivia Sagan is a psychologist, and she talks about loneliness.
• 1:17:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's really studied loneliness.
• 1:17:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So read some really, and I've just talked to Jean and Cante too, who wrote a book called Returning the South to Nature.
• 1:17:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So some really interesting people that you may not have heard of, you know, so I really want to invite people to listen to that.
• 1:17:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be on, you know, all the all the places you can find podcasts.
• 1:17:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And my website is axonleadership.com and I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm gonna try to engage more in conversation so certainly people are welcome to connect.
• 1:17:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll also say that with the podcast, that's like an offering at some point,
• 1:17:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: want to hold some spaces and like live spaces adjacent to that for people to come together.
• 1:17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing some training that will help me hold those spaces.
• 1:18:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's not live yet, but I really, you know, even as I say this, I feel like connection, conversation, deep listening, knowing what we care about and speaking from a place of heart.
• 1:18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: These are all really
• 1:18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, challenging slash brimming with potential slash bringing brimming with difficulty, you know, context we find ourselves in and I think, you know, genuine connection is, it's always going to be needed, it's really important.
• 1:18:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to invite people into that.
• 1:18:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Christina.
• 1:18:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:18:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'm sure people will be inspired to check those things out.
• 1:18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really, really appreciate appreciate it.
• 1:18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Joel and I appreciate.
• 1:19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what you do with coaches rising in your curiosity and leaning in and it was really fun just to like lean in together and kind of play with some of the ideas so I really I really thank you Joel.
• 1:19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm a fan.
• 1:19:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here we are, we're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:19:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just do a heads up again.
• 1:19:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coachesrising.com.
• 1:19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Put your name in the sign-up box there.
• 1:19:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
• 1:19:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just want to end by wishing you well, and I'll see you again next time.