Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / What The Michael Jackson movie gets Wrong about Michael Jackson | 05.12

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What The Michael Jackson movie gets Wrong about Michael Jackson | 05.12 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

0:01
Speaker 1: Wave.
0:09
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
0:13
Speaker 2: My name is Beaumont E.
0:14
Speaker 3: Jones.
0:14
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for
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Speaker 2: watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us,
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Speaker 2: give us five stars. If you only give us four stars,
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is
0:26
Speaker 2: Time Machine Tuesday. I got my man DJ Wally Sparks
0:30
Speaker 2: on the mic with me. Long and short, man, I
0:34
Speaker 2: went and saw that Michael Jackson movie. And I know that,
0:37
Speaker 2: you know, it ain't the hot talker that it was
0:40
Speaker 2: when it first came out, but you know me. I
0:41
Speaker 2: like to kind of let these things settle down and
0:44
Speaker 2: let people get, you know... get a hold of they
0:48
Speaker 2: motherfucking selves, right? Before we actually talk about what's going
0:52
Speaker 2: on with that movie, brother. Like, I saw somebody on
0:54
Speaker 2: the train a couple Sundays ago, and he had on
0:57
Speaker 2: the white shirt and the sparkly jacket and the hat,
1:00
Speaker 2: and I think he was going to see the Michael
1:01
Speaker 2: Jackson movie. It's New York City. He might have just
1:03
Speaker 2: come back from church. There ain't no way of knowing, man.
1:05
Speaker 3: You never know, right?
1:07
Speaker 2: People was charged up and ready to go see that
1:09
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson movie.
1:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, man.
1:12
Speaker 1: Michael Mania was in full effect for, like, you know,
1:15
Speaker 1: a good, say, 20 days. You know what I mean?
1:19
Speaker 1: And I mean, it was like back in full effect,
1:22
Speaker 1: you know, it was I saw, you know, children who
1:27
Speaker 1: weren't even thought of right by the time when Michael
1:30
Speaker 1: Jackson was Michael Jackson being, you know, cosplaying as him
1:34
Speaker 1: with their parents and.
1:36
Speaker 3: Not just cosplaying. Right.
1:37
Speaker 1: Because it's one thing for your parents just to put
1:39
Speaker 1: you in a Michael Jackson jacket and throw a little,
1:41
Speaker 1: you know, sparkle glove on your hand.
1:43
Speaker 3: Right.
1:43
Speaker 1: It's a whole nother thing when you are under 10
1:46
Speaker 1: years old in 2026 and you know the entire choreography
1:49
Speaker 1: in the Rock With You video.
1:50
Speaker 3: That's a whole nother thing. You know what I mean?
1:53
Speaker 2: So that is an interesting point because I think the
1:55
Speaker 2: movie itself we could get to, you know, we like
1:57
Speaker 2: do a little build up before we get there. But.
2:00
Speaker 2: A thing that dawned on me in watching that, right?
2:04
Speaker 2: And at first I wanted to do the show with
2:05
Speaker 2: my buddy Shannon because Shannon and them, they bought that
2:08
Speaker 2: mic life, right? Like I've seen it in their house.
2:11
Speaker 2: I've witnessed it in a different way. But one thing
2:14
Speaker 2: that being around him and his family and the relationship
2:17
Speaker 2: with Michael Jackson, it hit me that, and look, I'm
2:21
Speaker 2: a Prince guy. We've talked about this. No need to
2:24
Speaker 2: belabor the point. But a major difference between Prince and
2:27
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson is in terms of musically. That Michael Jackson
2:31
Speaker 2: catalog is a lot more kid-friendly. And without getting into,
2:37
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, there's something about Michael Jackson
2:40
Speaker 2: that's always been, like, really kid-friendly. Like, four-year-olds, five-year-olds see
2:45
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson... and instantly get it. It's been like this forever, right? Like,
2:51
Speaker 2: he's your five-year-old's favorite in a way that Prince never
2:55
Speaker 2: could be, right? I don't have the greatest explanation for
2:58
Speaker 2: why it is, but it is a lot easier to, like,
3:01
Speaker 2: the passing of Michael Jackson down to kids, it is
3:04
Speaker 2: a much easier adoption process than just about anybody I
3:07
Speaker 2: could think of.
3:08
Speaker 1: My take on that is that I believe that kids...
3:15
Speaker 1: or children rather, can recognize that Mike has a childlike spirit.
3:20
Speaker 1: And I think that's why they connect with him in
3:22
Speaker 1: the way that they do. Because, you know, look, man,
3:25
Speaker 1: my son is 14 years old now, but one of
3:28
Speaker 1: the first music things that we introduced to him was
3:34
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, and he got it. You know what I'm saying?
3:39
Speaker 1: It was almost like we didn't have to explain it.
3:41
Speaker 1: And he could, you know, once we told him who
3:43
Speaker 1: it was, he kind of recognized who it was, and
3:45
Speaker 1: he could, you know, he recognized the music. And I
3:48
Speaker 1: think Mike's childlike essence, even in the music, because even
3:53
Speaker 1: with the music being as accessible to children as it was,
3:57
Speaker 1: it was still, like, some really grown-up themes going on
4:00
Speaker 1: in what he was.
4:01
Speaker 3: Writing, right?
4:01
Speaker 2: Yes.
4:02
Speaker 1: Some real grown-up stuff. Like, all the things that adults do.
4:05
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying?
4:06
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, everything we deal with was in his music.
4:09
Speaker 3: But also... kids could jam to it.
4:14
Speaker 2: And you could play it in front of them. It's
4:15
Speaker 2: an important note. There is no sister or jack you
4:20
Speaker 2: off in a Michael Jackson catalog.
4:22
Speaker 3: Stop there. There's no head on Thriller. You could do that,
4:28
Speaker 3: but I was.
4:29
Speaker 2: And I think that's an interesting part the movie is
4:31
Speaker 2: a reminder of because you and I, you're a little
4:34
Speaker 2: bit older than me, but we're roughly the same age, right?
4:37
Speaker 2: But I think our age difference is just subtle enough
4:40
Speaker 2: that I don't really have real-time Thriller mania memories.
4:45
Speaker 3: Oh, I do.
4:46
Speaker 2: Like, my memories of him are with Thriller being established.
4:51
Speaker 2: But my first memories, but here's the thing, though. My
4:53
Speaker 2: first memories of life are not of the United States.
4:56
Speaker 2: They are actually in Nigeria. Nigeria.
4:59
Speaker 3: Really? Okay.
5:00
Speaker 2: And, buddy, it was a thing. Like, dude, Mike, that's
5:04
Speaker 2: the other thing. Like, I talked to my Spanish teacher
5:06
Speaker 2: about that, and she's like, hey, man, you know, I
5:09
Speaker 2: find that she doesn't know that much about Black American
5:12
Speaker 2: music or just generally speaking music in English, but she's like,
5:17
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson is a completely different situation. Like, there's something
5:20
Speaker 2: about him that cuts through all the noise, no matter
5:25
Speaker 2: where you are. Like, Watching that concert for Romania in 92,
5:29
Speaker 2: for example, where all the people are passing out and
5:32
Speaker 2: they are literally passing people through the crowd in wheelchairs. Right.
5:37
Speaker 2: Like just like the reactions and everything else. There is
5:41
Speaker 2: something about him. I've never heard anybody say, you know,
5:46
Speaker 2: and then I listen to a little bit more Michael Jackson.
5:48
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, I get it now.
5:50
Speaker 2: No no no no no immediately yeah yeah whatever level
5:53
Speaker 2: of getting it you're going to have right it jumps
5:57
Speaker 2: off the screen and it's jumped off the screen since
5:59
Speaker 2: he was 11 years old right and i think that
6:02
Speaker 2: i think another part of the fact that it goes
6:04
Speaker 2: so down it goes down so easy to children also
6:06
Speaker 2: is this started off not so much as children's music
6:09
Speaker 2: because i mean look that first jackson five album got
6:12
Speaker 2: a I'll bet you. They were doing grown-ass music.
6:18
Speaker 3: They were doing grown-up music, yeah.
6:19
Speaker 2: But it was still very clear that this was a child, right?
6:22
Speaker 2: And I think you're right that the spirit that came
6:25
Speaker 2: through of it, but I also wonder, and I just
6:27
Speaker 2: haven't read as much about Mike as others, but in
6:29
Speaker 2: terms of production and everything else, and maybe it's just his,
6:32
Speaker 2: like you say, the spirit of it, that sensibility comes
6:35
Speaker 2: through at every point. And so with Mike, Mike goes
6:39
Speaker 2: down to generations differently than literally every other artist that
6:44
Speaker 2: I could think of. Like, I don't ever hear anybody
6:46
Speaker 2: talk about, like any young person talk about Mike and
6:49
Speaker 2: be like, man, y'all just old.
6:51
Speaker 3: Nope.
6:52
Speaker 2: Nope. They right there with it. And I think also
6:55
Speaker 2: that video game, that Michael Jackson experience, I think is
6:59
Speaker 2: a big part in porting him down to another generation.
7:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
7:05
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember that game. I don't remember as much,
7:09
Speaker 1: but I do remember the game on the Sega Genesis,
7:13
Speaker 1: the Moonwalker game.
7:15
Speaker 2: Right.
7:15
Speaker 3: That was that I know.
7:18
Speaker 1: I know back then because that was because that game
7:23
Speaker 1: was based on the Smooth Criminal video.
7:25
Speaker 3: Yes.
7:25
Speaker 1: And I know that game. introduced a lot of people
7:31
Speaker 1: that were my age that weren't really into michael jackson
7:33
Speaker 1: the thought the few people that thought michael jackson was
7:36
Speaker 1: like what if you know what is that right play
7:38
Speaker 1: that game and they'd be like okay i i i
7:41
Speaker 1: kind of get this now you know what i mean
7:43
Speaker 1: like i they they the introduction to him was a
7:46
Speaker 1: was in a completely different way than it was musically
7:49
Speaker 1: but the connection remained the same you know.
7:52
Speaker 2: Yeah i also think that Look, I don't really care.
7:57
Speaker 2: Maybe this is just because it ain't nothing I do,
7:59
Speaker 2: but I don't really care about all that dancing shit, man.
8:04
Speaker 2: So that's not just him. That's just for me, generally speaking.
8:08
Speaker 2: I'm in the music for the music, right? But it's
8:11
Speaker 2: not that I can't recognize who's cold at it, or
8:14
Speaker 2: I can't recognize... That's just not what I come to
8:18
Speaker 2: the party for, right? It is interesting to me because
8:21
Speaker 2: you have kind of that James Brown, Jackie Wilson type
8:25
Speaker 2: of like super athletic, sweaty showman sort of dancing. You know,
8:30
Speaker 2: I think it's a very particular archetype that Prince subscribes
8:33
Speaker 2: to much more in a very clear way, right? Like
8:38
Speaker 2: the doing the splits up and down and everything else
8:40
Speaker 2: like that Mr. Dynamite type thing, right? Prince to me
8:45
Speaker 2: was like, what if you take James Brown, but James
8:47
Speaker 2: Brown can play all the instruments? Mike was like a
8:52
Speaker 2: paradigmatic elevation over James Brown. Right. It's the same spirit.
8:56
Speaker 2: It's the same idea. But Mike was doing dance stuff like, yo,
9:00
Speaker 2: what is that? I don't think I've seen anybody do
9:03
Speaker 2: do do this thing before. And again, in a way
9:08
Speaker 2: that I feel like. translates like very clearly through screen
9:12
Speaker 2: because mike's mastery of television i think is another part
9:15
Speaker 2: of this right but like mike doing what was the
9:17
Speaker 2: backslide and calling it the moon walker everything else hey
9:20
Speaker 2: man that's a lot different than what james and prince
9:23
Speaker 2: or anybody else was out there doing right like the
9:26
Speaker 2: the robot and all these other things it's it's it
9:30
Speaker 2: it jumped out in a way, I think, that made
9:33
Speaker 2: him much more singular than anybody else, right? Like, people
9:37
Speaker 2: talk about that Chris Brown is as good a dancer
9:39
Speaker 2: as Michael Jackson. Maybe, maybe not. It don't matter because
9:42
Speaker 2: he ain't Michael Jackson. We talk about something completely different here.
9:45
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
9:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing with Mike, as far as Mike the
9:49
Speaker 1: dancer goes, like, even back, you know, to the James
9:53
Speaker 1: Browns and the Jackie Wilson, as you pointed out, who
9:55
Speaker 1: are great influences on Mike, who he also credits as
9:59
Speaker 1: a great influence.
10:00
Speaker 3: They did it.
10:03
Speaker 1: Because they wanted to make it a part of their show.
10:07
Speaker 1: Mike just did it. You know what I'm saying? It
10:10
Speaker 1: was a naturally fluid thing to him. Yes, I'm emulating
10:13
Speaker 1: my favorites, but I'm also just doing whatever comes in,
10:17
Speaker 1: whatever my body tells me to do at whatever given moment.
10:20
Speaker 3: And it just.
10:23
Speaker 1: It looked like nothing that we'd ever seen at the time,
10:26
Speaker 1: and no one's been.
10:27
Speaker 3: Able to replicate it.
10:28
Speaker 1: Matter of fact, even today, people that you recognize, stars
10:32
Speaker 1: that we recognize as very good dancers, the Ushers, the
10:36
Speaker 1: Chris Browns of the world, they all, all of them
10:40
Speaker 1: are still doing moves that Mike did when he was
10:44
Speaker 1: a kid.
10:44
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:45
Speaker 3: You know? That speaks to the.
10:48
Speaker 1: the level of physical genius that often gets overlooked when
10:53
Speaker 1: it comes to Michael Jackson as, you know, in totality.
10:56
Speaker 1: You know, like, he was just doing things that no
11:00
Speaker 1: one else would even think to do or probably could
11:04
Speaker 1: do because it was just in him. You know, you're
11:08
Speaker 1: not old black folk talk, man.
11:10
Speaker 3: It wasn't, you know, it was in him, it wasn't
11:12
Speaker 3: on him. You know what I'm saying?
11:13
Speaker 1: That's Michael Jackson with those dances, man. Like, Everyone, everybody
11:20
Speaker 1: wanted to dance like Mike and probably still do.
11:23
Speaker 2: Now, this is my other general Michael Jackson observation. Michael
11:30
Speaker 2: Jackson is like a real life, like he was like
11:35
Speaker 2: five foot nine or five foot ten of Celo Simon.
11:40
Speaker 2: And this is what I mean. Michael Jackson had the
11:43
Speaker 2: ability to dissolve the ego. of everybody in his presence.
11:51
Speaker 2: I was talking to my buddy about this, and it
11:56
Speaker 2: was the idea that both of us had considered ourselves
11:59
Speaker 2: to be people who were like, yo, it's just hard
12:01
Speaker 2: to impress me. I'm a tough person to impress, so
12:04
Speaker 2: forth and so on. And that is ego. That is
12:07
Speaker 2: the verbalization of ego. It is the idea that you
12:10
Speaker 2: are somehow above these things and it cannot impress you
12:14
Speaker 2: because either because you've seen X, Y, and Z or
12:17
Speaker 2: because you are capable of whatever the thing is, right?
12:20
Speaker 2: And so therefore you cannot be impressed. That is how
12:23
Speaker 2: ego talks, right? And so I had gotten to thinking
12:25
Speaker 2: about that where I was like, I really considered in
12:27
Speaker 2: my life the idea that Hey, man, anybody that can
12:30
Speaker 2: do anything I can't do has to be impressive in
12:32
Speaker 2: some form or fashion.
12:33
Speaker 3: Right.
12:34
Speaker 2: Like they like it doesn't have to be anything big,
12:35
Speaker 2: but there's there's nothing dope about swearing that nobody can
12:39
Speaker 2: impress you because then you never get the joy of
12:41
Speaker 2: being impressed.
12:42
Speaker 4: Right.
12:42
Speaker 2: Like you never get that feeling that comes when you
12:45
Speaker 2: see something and you're like, damn, that's something else.
12:47
Speaker 4: Right.
12:48
Speaker 2: All because you are subscribing to the idea of your
12:51
Speaker 2: own greatness.
12:51
Speaker 4: Right.
12:52
Speaker 2: Or your your your impermeability.
12:54
Speaker 3: Right.
12:56
Speaker 2: James Brown bowed down before Michael Jackson, right? All the
13:01
Speaker 2: stars that came previous to Mike, all those guys that
13:04
Speaker 2: were older, whether it be Stevie Wonder or anybody else,
13:07
Speaker 2: none of them was hating on Mike. Even Prince.
13:10
Speaker 3: He'd have won. Yeah, yeah.
13:12
Speaker 2: Even Prince, where there was obviously a rivalry and people
13:16
Speaker 2: like to talk it down now. No, no, no. There
13:18
Speaker 2: was a thing. There was a rivalry. But after Mike died,
13:20
Speaker 2: Prince put Don't Stop Till You Get Enough in the set, right?
13:23
Speaker 2: Prince was not in a place where he did not recognize,
13:25
Speaker 2: and I bet you, unless Prince, and it's possible he
13:27
Speaker 2: was just that kind of asshole, 11-year-old Prince was looking
13:30
Speaker 2: at the Jackson 5 and everything.
13:32
Speaker 3: Else too, right?
13:33
Speaker 2: But when you watch those concerts of Mike, nobody got
13:36
Speaker 2: people passing out just at the sight of them, right?
13:40
Speaker 2: Nobody could go stand there at the Super Bowl for
13:43
Speaker 2: two minutes. Just stand in there before you take your
13:46
Speaker 2: sunglasses off and not move. Like he breaks down everybody
13:51
Speaker 2: that swear. Nah, dog, that ain't, you know, you can't
13:54
Speaker 2: break me. No, he broke everybody, right? Whether his music
13:59
Speaker 2: is your favorite or not, you can't change the reality
14:03
Speaker 2: of the effect that he had on the people who
14:05
Speaker 2: came around him. And again, the legends that came around him, right?
14:11
Speaker 2: Like that crazy scene at that James Brown birthday party.
14:15
Speaker 2: And this is how everybody, everybody who downplays the idea
14:18
Speaker 2: that this is a real robbery is crazy, right? James
14:21
Speaker 2: Brown had a birthday party, right? And so Mike comes
14:26
Speaker 2: up on stage and Mike, you know, James calls for
14:29
Speaker 2: Mike on stage. So Mike's on stage. He does his
14:31
Speaker 2: thing or whatever. But I think the thing that people
14:33
Speaker 2: don't realize is Mike wanted James to call Prince on stage.
14:39
Speaker 2: That was Mike's idea specifically because Mike wanted to embarrass him.
14:46
Speaker 3: And it worked.
14:47
Speaker 2: Prince got up there, did not know what in the
14:50
Speaker 2: world to do with himself in that moment. And this
14:53
Speaker 2: is Prince post-1999, right? So he has not become the
14:56
Speaker 2: Purple Rain star, but he is still a really big deal.
15:00
Speaker 2: But the truth was, James and Mike were in the crew.
15:05
Speaker 2: Prince was not in the crew.
15:07
Speaker 3: Which is to.
15:09
Speaker 2: Say, 40, damn near 50-year-old James Brown had welcomed Mike
15:14
Speaker 2: into the crew. And Prince was still the upstart. That's
15:19
Speaker 2: how cold Michael Jackson was.
15:22
Speaker 1: It seems like all-time great showman Rookie Hazen is what
15:27
Speaker 1: that seems like.
15:27
Speaker 2: Yes.
15:28
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
15:29
Speaker 2: Mike wanted everybody to know because this is post-Thriller Mike.
15:32
Speaker 2: Mike has done Thriller. Think about this. Prince puts out 1999.
15:34
Speaker 2: 1999 is a really big deal, but then there was Thriller, right?
15:38
Speaker 2: But the idea that that level of star already saw
15:42
Speaker 2: Mike based on what he did when he was a child.
15:46
Speaker 2: as being on their level, right? And that gets us
15:49
Speaker 2: to this weird-ass movie. I don't know if other people
15:54
Speaker 2: found it to be weird. I'll get into why it
15:58
Speaker 2: is that I found it to be weird, but I'm
16:00
Speaker 2: curious what you thought about this part of it, which was...
16:03
Speaker 2: to me, this movie was preaching to the choir. And
16:05
Speaker 2: when I say it was preaching to the choir, I
16:07
Speaker 2: mean that they don't even really give you a lot
16:10
Speaker 2: of background information. Like you got to walk into the
16:12
Speaker 2: theater understanding that Michael Jackson is the biggest deal in
16:14
Speaker 2: the world. And even understanding to a degree, some of
16:16
Speaker 2: the childhood stuff or anything else, there was not a
16:19
Speaker 2: building action of Michael Jackson. It was done for people
16:22
Speaker 2: who understood what Michael Jackson was. Like it felt like
16:26
Speaker 2: as all these biopics that are done by these estates are,
16:28
Speaker 2: it was locking in and like it felt like it
16:32
Speaker 2: was rallying the troops on The Legend of Michael.
16:35
Speaker 1: Jackson so I think it was that and I had
16:41
Speaker 1: a friend who's a really really big Michael Jackson fan
16:44
Speaker 1: and they hadn't seen the movie yet and.
16:46
Speaker 3: They asked me what I thought about it I was
16:48
Speaker 3: like look.
16:50
Speaker 1: I enjoyed the film for the most part but If
16:54
Speaker 1: you're a Michael Jackson fan, you're not going to learn
16:56
Speaker 1: anything new. Everything that you already know about Michael Jackson
17:00
Speaker 1: is what's going to be seen on film. But there
17:04
Speaker 1: are some small anecdotes and things that are interesting, to
17:09
Speaker 1: say the least. Also kind of strange and weird. But
17:13
Speaker 1: you're not going to come away from it learning anything
17:16
Speaker 1: that you didn't already know about Mike. If you're a
17:19
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson fan, you're going to enjoy it. Because as
17:24
Speaker 1: a fan, all the things that you felt when you
17:29
Speaker 1: first heard these records for the first time, especially if
17:31
Speaker 1: you live through the, you know, from the off the
17:34
Speaker 1: wall through the bad era, which is pretty much what's
17:36
Speaker 1: covered in the film. If you live through any of that,
17:38
Speaker 1: all the feelings that you felt about the music, you're
17:41
Speaker 1: going to get those same nostalgic feelings again. And it's
17:45
Speaker 1: going to be an enjoyable ride. The other thing I
17:48
Speaker 1: think this film was that people... are kind of glossing
17:51
Speaker 1: over that. It seemed to me, to me, it seemed
17:55
Speaker 1: like a, a, a Joe Jackson image sanitation project also.
18:00
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Because I saw the opposite.
18:04
Speaker 3: You think, do you think the opposite? No, I'm kidding.
18:07
Speaker 2: I want to hear what you said.
18:08
Speaker 1: I think the way, the way Joe was portrayed is
18:11
Speaker 1: that typically when we see a Joe Jackson portrayal, it's always,
18:16
Speaker 1: you know, built ass basically, you know what I mean?
18:19
Speaker 1: here's this really hard line dictator dictator father I beat
18:24
Speaker 1: up all my kids whatever in this in this particular
18:28
Speaker 1: film they don't shy away from that right but they
18:32
Speaker 1: also paid Joe in a life like look man look
18:37
Speaker 1: I you know come from parents who were probably either
18:40
Speaker 1: slaves or sharecroppers and I know how these people work
18:45
Speaker 1: and I am not going to let that happen to
18:47
Speaker 1: my children by any means necessary. And if that means
18:51
Speaker 1: that I have to discipline my children in a way
18:54
Speaker 1: that they feel like is a little too harsh, then
18:56
Speaker 1: so be it. But the reason I'm doing this is
18:59
Speaker 1: because I am trying to get me and my 10 children,
19:03
Speaker 1: or nine children rather, out of Gary, Indiana and to
19:08
Speaker 1: a better life, which is what ultimately he accomplished.
19:12
Speaker 3: You know?
19:12
Speaker 1: So I think, and I think Coleman Domingo was probably
19:15
Speaker 1: the best actor.
19:18
Speaker 3: In the film. I think he played a really good
19:22
Speaker 3: Joe Jackson.
19:23
Speaker 1: And I think the nuance that he brought to his
19:26
Speaker 1: performance was also, you know, part and parcel of why
19:31
Speaker 1: I think this was sort of a way to humanize
19:35
Speaker 1: Joe in a way that we probably hadn't seen in
19:38
Speaker 1: any kind of media before.
19:39
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is what I thought. I thought that
19:43
Speaker 2: the Jackson's An American Dream miniseries from 1992.
19:47
Speaker 3: Remember miniseries?
19:49
Speaker 2: But like, and for those who were not around for
19:52
Speaker 2: when that miniseries came out, boy, that had streets on lock.
19:56
Speaker 1: Miniseries is called Binge Watching in 2026 is what it's
19:58
Speaker 1: called now.
20:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that was, that miniseries, we was ready
20:04
Speaker 2: for it, and I thought that that miniseries presented Joe
20:07
Speaker 2: as you described from this movie, right? Like The main
20:10
Speaker 2: character of that miniseries is Joe Jackson.
20:13
Speaker 3: Right.
20:13
Speaker 2: Like he is the centerpiece.
20:15
Speaker 3: Because Joe might be the main character of this Michael movie, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:19
Speaker 2: I say no, I don't think so. Like like like.
20:21
Speaker 2: So the thing about the docuseries was is it starts
20:24
Speaker 2: with Joe and I thought it presented Joe much more warmly.
20:27
Speaker 3: Right.
20:28
Speaker 2: It presented Joe before like it presented Joe as a
20:32
Speaker 2: man who was in love with his wife. which this
20:35
Speaker 2: movie absolutely does not present him as at any point whatsoever.
20:39
Speaker 2: I felt as though Joe was a villain from the
20:42
Speaker 2: very beginning with some moments where he lashes out and is.
20:45
Speaker 3: Like, we got to get out of here.
20:46
Speaker 2: You know, we're going to get them out of this
20:48
Speaker 2: situation or whatever it is. But I felt like, and
20:50
Speaker 2: I guess that docuseries also had more time because I
20:53
Speaker 2: think the story of the brothers... up until 1979 or
20:56
Speaker 2: 1983 or whatever, is much more interesting than just the
20:59
Speaker 2: simple story of Michael Jackson. I thought the movie also
21:02
Speaker 2: presented the violence as only going toward Mike. There ain't
21:07
Speaker 2: nothing about Joe beating the rest of them boys where
21:08
Speaker 2: that docuseries has got him beating Tito because he messed
21:11
Speaker 2: with the guitar and he had to come out here
21:13
Speaker 2: and play and show his metal in that moment or
21:17
Speaker 2: everything else. I felt, and I'm going to tie this back,
21:22
Speaker 2: There's a scene in the movie where Mike is trying
21:24
Speaker 2: to get them to get off the wall, go into whatever,
21:26
Speaker 2: and John Branca steps up with his ideas, and John
21:29
Speaker 2: Branca becomes the guy who handles Michael Jackson's career. You
21:33
Speaker 2: will be very surprised to learn that when the credits
21:35
Speaker 2: run and they show executive producers, John Branca is right there, right?
21:41
Speaker 2: Just like all these Jackson kids are listed as executive
21:45
Speaker 2: producers in the documentary, and it reminded me of Straight
21:48
Speaker 2: Outta Compton, where Straight Outta Compton had... all those cooks, right?
21:53
Speaker 2: And so you wind up with stuff like Eazy-E's wife
21:56
Speaker 2: just throwing a line in there. But don't forget, I
21:58
Speaker 2: have a degree and I worked in the music industry too. Yeah,
22:01
Speaker 2: because she an executive producer on this movie and she
22:04
Speaker 2: needs y'all to know that she did that thing. You
22:06
Speaker 2: know who's not an executive producer on this Michael Jackson movie?
22:09
Speaker 2: Deadass Joe Jackson. That's who's not an executive producer in
22:12
Speaker 2: this movie. And so I felt like at least through
22:16
Speaker 2: this part of the movie, they presented Joe as a
22:21
Speaker 2: full-on monster. And to be clear, his kids are in
22:25
Speaker 2: on this, right? And so it is possible that he is,
22:29
Speaker 2: in fact, the monster totally across the board that I
22:32
Speaker 2: felt like they presented him to be. But I did
22:34
Speaker 2: not come away from that thinking, wow, they were being
22:36
Speaker 2: really kind to Joe. That wasn't how it felt to me.
22:40
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe not so much as kind as much
22:44
Speaker 1: as more of a, I came away with it saying like,
22:49
Speaker 1: Just think about the type of man Joe Jackson was
22:53
Speaker 1: and the time that he had to, you know, raise
22:55
Speaker 1: and rear all of his children and the path that
22:59
Speaker 1: he chose for them, which was being musicians.
23:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
23:02
Speaker 3: And the difficulty would be.
23:04
Speaker 1: To get that sort of act, to be that sort
23:08
Speaker 1: of act.
23:09
Speaker 3: And, you know, sure, they were his children, but, you know,
23:14
Speaker 3: he had to be a.
23:16
Speaker 3: You know, he had to be a great talent. I mean,
23:18
Speaker 3: not necessarily.
23:19
Speaker 1: Cause Mike, once you start singing, you kind of know that,
23:21
Speaker 1: you know, this is a unique one-on-one, but, but yeah, man,
23:25
Speaker 1: like I just, I just thought, I just thought like
23:28
Speaker 1: when I left that film, uh, I don't know why,
23:32
Speaker 1: but some, something in me felt a little bit more
23:35
Speaker 1: empathetic for Joe than I had in the past.
23:37
Speaker 3: Not to say, cause they, they did, they did everything
23:39
Speaker 3: you said.
23:40
Speaker 1: They didn't shy away from him being the, the violent
23:43
Speaker 1: person that we've all known him to, uh, to have been, uh,
23:48
Speaker 1: to his children and to, you know, everyone that he was.
23:52
Speaker 3: Supposed to love.
23:54
Speaker 1: Uh, but I just left that film thinking like, like,
23:59
Speaker 1: I know what you did was wrong, you know, but.
24:05
Speaker 3: You still succeeded.
24:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, I thought what they didn't, to me, and look,
24:11
Speaker 2: there's only so much time that you have in these things, right?
24:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:14
Speaker 2: But I think the part that they didn't sell that, again,
24:16
Speaker 2: that I thought that TV miniseries sold better was the
24:19
Speaker 2: fact that Joe was a frustrated musician himself and that
24:21
Speaker 2: these kids were chasing his dream. The other part that
24:27
Speaker 2: I felt was subtly in place, but I don't think
24:31
Speaker 2: they were... I don't think they did Joe any favors
24:34
Speaker 2: in this regard was that One, I find it fascinating
24:37
Speaker 2: that Joe never thought of Michael Jackson as a solo act, right?
24:40
Speaker 2: Like he never thought of any of those kids as
24:42
Speaker 2: a solo act is crazy. Like that's how you know
24:45
Speaker 2: he wasn't just in it for the money because that's
24:48
Speaker 2: like he saw himself as being responsible for For all
24:52
Speaker 2: these boys. And his thing was, hey, Mike, if you
24:56
Speaker 2: don't tour your brothers, what are they going to do? Now,
24:59
Speaker 2: it should not have been obviously Michael Jackson's responsibility to
25:01
Speaker 2: deal with these boys or anything else. But Joe seemed
25:05
Speaker 2: to feel a responsibility. He saw the family as this unit.
25:09
Speaker 2: And he never saw Mike as being somebody that could
25:14
Speaker 2: be separate, which again, it's kind of crazy. Cause like
25:17
Speaker 2: he wasn't even viewing it. Like the idea off the wall,
25:20
Speaker 2: Mike could do whatever he wants off the clock, keeping
25:23
Speaker 2: in mind. And look, look, this is another thing too,
25:24
Speaker 2: with me and this Michael Jackson thing is I don't
25:26
Speaker 2: give a damn about none of these other Jackson's like
25:28
Speaker 2: other than Janet, who got our own situation. Like when
25:30
Speaker 2: people got their feelings about these individual Jackson's, I'm like,
25:33
Speaker 2: what the fuck is wrong with, what are you talking about?
25:34
Speaker 3: Right.
25:35
Speaker 2: But again, The Jacksons as an act, part of why
25:39
Speaker 2: they left Motown is that Barry Gordy thought they was
25:41
Speaker 2: out of juice. Like they were as a unit. It
25:47
Speaker 2: was obvious what the future was. And Joe was like, nope, nope, nope.
25:51
Speaker 2: Like the fact that Joe did not try to transition
25:53
Speaker 2: into I'm gonna be your manager to into this other
25:56
Speaker 2: stuff to me. is very interesting. And the movie kind
26:00
Speaker 2: of presents that as such. It's like he's just trying
26:03
Speaker 2: to do something for all these other brothers who all
26:06
Speaker 2: inexplicably still live in this house.
26:10
Speaker 3: I mean, that's parental intuition, man.
26:13
Speaker 1: You know you got the one that's going to take
26:16
Speaker 1: us to the promised land and you.
26:17
Speaker 3: Got the other five or the four or five that
26:22
Speaker 3: Might not get us there.
26:23
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you got to think, you got to,
26:25
Speaker 1: I guess he was thinking like a general manager in sports.
26:27
Speaker 1: Like I got a star player that's going to get
26:29
Speaker 1: me to where I need to go.
26:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
26:30
Speaker 1: But I also got to, I got to manage the
26:32
Speaker 1: rest of the team that I, that I know aren't
26:34
Speaker 1: going or can help me get to where I want
26:37
Speaker 1: to go.
26:37
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, our interchangeable pieces, you know what
26:40
Speaker 3: I mean?
26:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:42
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I guess, I guess that's the
26:43
Speaker 1: way I looked at it, the way he took his
26:46
Speaker 1: approach to.
26:48
Speaker 3: But that is a good point you raised.
26:49
Speaker 1: Like, you know, if, if, if he did, choose to say, hey, look, Mike,
26:58
Speaker 1: we don't go solo and I'm going to lead you.
27:00
Speaker 3: I'm going to lead you solo. And then you can
27:01
Speaker 3: just like, you know, piecemeal his brothers along or whatever.
27:05
Speaker 3: That would have been one thing.
27:06
Speaker 1: But for him to be like, nah, you know, you
27:11
Speaker 1: are part of the team and you can't ever leave
27:13
Speaker 1: the team.
27:13
Speaker 3: That's a whole nother thing.
27:14
Speaker 2: All right, coming up next, we're going to talk some
27:16
Speaker 2: more about this damn Michael Jackson movie. You can predict
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28:22
Speaker 3: All right.
28:22
Speaker 2: We are back with DJ Wiley Sparks talking about this
28:25
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson movie. I went back and listened to Off
28:29
Speaker 2: the Wall the other day for the first time in
28:31
Speaker 2: a long time.
28:32
Speaker 4: Right.
28:34
Speaker 2: Dude, Off the Wall is so cold. Bro, it's so good.
28:37
Speaker 2: It's so good. It's so cold. I think it's undersold
28:41
Speaker 2: what a big deal it was. When Thriller came out,
28:44
Speaker 2: the question was, how are you going to be bigger
28:47
Speaker 2: than Off the Wall? Off the Wall was the biggest
28:49
Speaker 2: album a Black person had ever put out. It's also
28:52
Speaker 2: a Louis Johnson masterpiece.
28:54
Speaker 3: Bro, get on the floor, the baseline. Oh, bro. Bro.
29:00
Speaker 2: Good gracious, right? And so, like, we move out of
29:03
Speaker 2: the Jackson 5 stuff. And again, where I say I
29:06
Speaker 2: don't feel like they did a good job of building
29:08
Speaker 2: the magnitude. you know, into, into off the wall. And
29:12
Speaker 2: we get there and that's the off the wall is
29:15
Speaker 2: black people's Michael Jackson record. Right. I know there are,
29:18
Speaker 2: there are white people that also joined us in the,
29:20
Speaker 2: how dope off the wall was, but off the wall
29:22
Speaker 2: is a very black people record. It's very clean, right?
29:25
Speaker 2: It's very well produced. Quincy had said that he was
29:28
Speaker 2: trying to get away from the bubble gum image that
29:30
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson had. It definitely did that while also staying in,
29:35
Speaker 2: the pop late right but in the movie around this
29:38
Speaker 2: time combining the other Joe Jackson stuff right with this
29:45
Speaker 2: it starts to begin around when they start talking about
29:48
Speaker 2: the plastic surgery it's not very often that you see
29:52
Speaker 2: a hero in a movie being built up around you
29:56
Speaker 2: know being a little weak yeah understandably given some of
30:02
Speaker 2: the circumstances right but in fact weak is not the
30:05
Speaker 2: word I want to use yet I'll get to that
30:07
Speaker 2: I'll get to them perhaps weakness a little bit later
30:10
Speaker 2: but it definitely you are you are supposed to pity
30:15
Speaker 2: him like the way he talked about.
30:19
Speaker 3: His nose the greatest entertainer of all time you're supposed
30:22
Speaker 3: to feel.
30:22
Speaker 4: Bad for him yeah yeah and by the way you
30:25
Speaker 4: do feel bad for him when it happens he never
30:28
Speaker 4: seems happy At any point through this, which I understand
30:33
Speaker 4: the argument that people have made that if one wants
30:34
Speaker 4: to view this cynically, it is inclined to set you
30:37
Speaker 4: up to feel bad for him for perhaps things that
30:39
Speaker 4: he may or may not do down the line in
30:42
Speaker 4: other parts of this movie that do come up.
30:44
Speaker 2: But it's a little interesting to watch a movie again,
30:47
Speaker 2: like you said, because I don't have a concept of
30:49
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson as being cool. He was a weirdo by
30:52
Speaker 2: the time I got around to like really knowing what
30:54
Speaker 2: was it. But he's the coolest dude that's out here.
30:58
Speaker 2: And he's, by the way, still living with his parents.
30:59
Speaker 2: I gotta get back to this. It didn't really dawn
31:03
Speaker 2: on me that this dude did Thriller and he's still
31:04
Speaker 2: living with his mom. Mm-hmm.
31:08
Speaker 3: What?
31:08
Speaker 1: Hey, man, that's that childlike spirit, man. He didn't know
31:12
Speaker 1: how to be an adult.
31:13
Speaker 2: But, Wally, they all still at the house. These motherfuckers
31:16
Speaker 2: out here. They way older than Mike. They out here
31:19
Speaker 2: hooping in the driveway with giraffes walking around.
31:23
Speaker 3: Yeah. That is a very, very, very good point.
31:27
Speaker 2: Oh, like the idea that Joe in the house. I
31:31
Speaker 2: think it's around here where he fires Joe by fax.
31:35
Speaker 3: Yeah.
31:36
Speaker 2: But you still live in the house.
31:38
Speaker 3: The boss to do that. He go to his room.
31:42
Speaker 2: Right.
31:42
Speaker 4: Right.
31:43
Speaker 2: He go to his room. And Joe is like, well,
31:45
Speaker 2: he actually big enough for me to fight him for real.
31:47
Speaker 2: And mama's like, no, no, no. You can't like no more.
31:50
Speaker 2: No more beating up Mike. But I got to say,
31:52
Speaker 2: I would understood if you would want to fight Mike
31:54
Speaker 2: under those circumstances. Did you just fire me with the facts?
32:00
Speaker 3: And you under my roof. You know what I mean?
32:04
Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, hold on. He hired new representation
32:06
Speaker 2: and told them, I need you to fire my dad
32:09
Speaker 2: for him. And they're like, sure, whatever. And they did
32:11
Speaker 2: it by fax because they thought Joe was going to
32:13
Speaker 2: whoop their asses too.
32:17
Speaker 3: He had to walk.
32:19
Speaker 1: Yo, man, the balls. The balls to pull something like
32:22
Speaker 1: that off, man.
32:23
Speaker 3: You know?
32:24
Speaker 1: And you know another thing I took from this movie?
32:27
Speaker 3: I think... I think....
32:30
Speaker 1: Mike and Joe were sort of peas in a pie
32:34
Speaker 1: where they, they were, uh, they were, uh, on two
32:38
Speaker 1: completely separate paths to the same destination.
32:41
Speaker 3: Yeah.
32:41
Speaker 1: Which was, which was, which was Mike being the greatest
32:44
Speaker 1: entertainer of all time, you know? And then, you know,
32:47
Speaker 1: it just, it just, but Joe saw it one way
32:50
Speaker 1: and Mike saw it a completely different way and they
32:52
Speaker 1: acted as such. And, but things that they did, like
32:56
Speaker 1: you just said, like, you know, Mike hiring representation to
32:59
Speaker 1: do his dirty work.
33:01
Speaker 3: That's some true businessman shit.
33:02
Speaker 2: Happens all the time.
33:03
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
33:05
Speaker 2: You just don't normally live in their house.
33:07
Speaker 3: Bro, you know what I'm saying?
33:10
Speaker 1: I've been fired from a job that I love by
33:13
Speaker 1: someone that I thought I could have a direct conversation with.
33:16
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
33:19
Speaker 1: Yes. And I'm not even tripping on that. The game
33:21
Speaker 1: is the game, as Marlo Stanfield so succinctly put in
33:24
Speaker 1: The Wire. But, you know, it is what it is, man.
33:28
Speaker 1: But still, to have the temerity and tenacity to pull
33:35
Speaker 1: off a stunt like that and then just go home
33:38
Speaker 1: and see the man at home and be like, yeah, man,
33:40
Speaker 1: you know, it is what it is, homie.
33:42
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying?
33:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, and Joe was treating him like it
33:45
Speaker 2: was business.
33:46
Speaker 3: Yep.
33:46
Speaker 2: Right? Like, that's the thing about it. Joe was treating
33:48
Speaker 2: him like... It is the original version of Beyonce firing
33:51
Speaker 2: her daddy, right? There was a level that Mike could
33:54
Speaker 2: not get to with his daddy being the manager. And
33:57
Speaker 2: it's worth noting, in both of those cases, your daddy
34:00
Speaker 2: getting you as far as he did is a really
34:02
Speaker 2: impressive and a testament to your dad.
34:04
Speaker 3: Yes, it is. 100%.
34:05
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing that happened with Joe,
34:07
Speaker 2: and this is what I've been told in part happened
34:09
Speaker 2: with Beyonce and Matthew, was Matthew's people at Columbia were
34:13
Speaker 2: no longer the people who ran things at Columbia anymore.
34:16
Speaker 2: And so now you got to get a manager who's
34:18
Speaker 2: got the relationships at your label with the right people.
34:21
Speaker 3: It's a real thing. Trust me. It's a real thing.
34:24
Speaker 2: Well, in this case, they turned over the label. Like,
34:27
Speaker 2: you're not at Motown anymore. You're at this new place,
34:29
Speaker 2: and who knows what the changes were, but them people
34:31
Speaker 2: did not have the respect. A, they didn't have the
34:33
Speaker 2: respect for Joe Jackson, and B, the Jacksons were not
34:36
Speaker 2: the same as the Jackson 5 in terms of whatever
34:38
Speaker 2: their importance was to the label at the time. And
34:40
Speaker 2: even at Motown, Barry Gordon was like, all right, this
34:42
Speaker 2: is gone about as far is it's going to go, right?
34:46
Speaker 2: But the movie gets to the thriller part and I
34:50
Speaker 2: thought it was an interesting editorial decision to build up
34:53
Speaker 2: the Mike had Crips and Bloods in the Beated video,
34:55
Speaker 2: which I did not realize- You say what?
34:59
Speaker 3: It's so ridiculous.
35:00
Speaker 2: Yes.
35:01
Speaker 3: Yes.
35:01
Speaker 2: So what? I didn't realize that that actually happened in
35:04
Speaker 2: real life because I just remember your boy Torres in
35:07
Speaker 2: the video. Michael De Lorenzo dancing in the video. So
35:11
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was. So it was a couple
35:12
Speaker 2: of dances in actual Crips and Bloods. And it is
35:15
Speaker 2: my favorite thing about Michael Jackson.
35:17
Speaker 3: Right.
35:17
Speaker 2: Or just the idea that people don't understand how the
35:19
Speaker 2: world works. It is demonstrated again in 1996 when he
35:24
Speaker 2: goes up in the favelas to shoot that video. He
35:26
Speaker 2: is Michael fucking.
35:27
Speaker 3: Jackson, man.
35:28
Speaker 2: He ain't got to be afraid. The gangsters ain't about
35:31
Speaker 2: to rob Michael Jackson. They about to faint just like
35:34
Speaker 2: everybody else faints when they see Michael Jackson, right? They
35:38
Speaker 2: steal people.
35:41
Speaker 3: Hey, chill out, cuz. That's Michael Jackson, bro.
35:45
Speaker 2: That's Michael Jackson. Nobody's like, man, I don't give a
35:48
Speaker 2: damn if that's Michael Jackson or not. Yes, you do.
35:51
Speaker 3: Yes, you do. Yes, you do, bro. That's Michael Jackson, dog.
35:54
Speaker 2: That's Michael Jackson, right? So they put together the scene
35:56
Speaker 2: where Mike is putting him through the dance steps and
35:58
Speaker 2: everything else. Now, I do think it's funny, the idea
36:01
Speaker 2: of Michael Jackson choreographing the gangsters. Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut!
36:07
Speaker 1: I mean, bro, having somebody with a flag hanging out
36:11
Speaker 1: his back pocket has probably just been the right off
36:14
Speaker 1: of 40 to five, six, seven, eight.
36:15
Speaker 3: It's crazy shit, bro. And it's so funny.
36:19
Speaker 2: But it led to one of my big criticisms of
36:24
Speaker 2: the movie in terms of its enjoyability. And I'm with you.
36:27
Speaker 2: By and large, not a bad way to spend an afternoon, right?
36:29
Speaker 2: You get to hear the Michael Jackson songs or whatever.
36:31
Speaker 2: But did you see Bohemian Rhapsody?
36:34
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, the Freddie Mercury... Well, Queen. Yeah, right.
36:37
Speaker 2: But the Freddie Mercury movie, right?
36:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
36:38
Speaker 2: And it was clearly a movie that existed to get
36:42
Speaker 2: you to the songs.
36:44
Speaker 4: Right?
36:44
Speaker 2: Like, the point of the movie... was the setup for
36:47
Speaker 2: these big musical numbers. And with Freddie, there were very clear, like,
36:52
Speaker 2: delineations in time in terms of his fashion that spoke
36:56
Speaker 2: to different parts of his life, right? You know, like,
36:59
Speaker 2: there's mustache Freddie. There's, you know, clean saving. Yeah, clone Freddie.
37:03
Speaker 2: There's like two eras of mustache Freddie, but still, like, it's,
37:07
Speaker 2: The looks changed at very clear periods of time with
37:10
Speaker 2: songs that very clearly marked those periods of time. But
37:14
Speaker 2: I felt like with that movie, they nailed every big
37:17
Speaker 2: musical number, right? I didn't feel like they really nailed
37:22
Speaker 2: the music, like building to the musical numbers in this one.
37:26
Speaker 2: I felt like it had the songs, but I felt
37:29
Speaker 2: like if you were going to do Beat It, there's
37:30
Speaker 2: a better way to do Beat It. There was a
37:32
Speaker 2: stronger way. to get you into Thriller. Like, I just didn't. Also,
37:36
Speaker 2: surprising decision, Know We Are the World.
37:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that was peculiar, too. You know what
37:43
Speaker 3: I mean?
37:44
Speaker 2: But then again, you go... But in terms of the
37:46
Speaker 2: grander image of Michael Jackson's Citizen of the World, regardless
37:50
Speaker 2: of how you feel about the song We Are the World,
37:52
Speaker 2: that's the biggest record he ever did, right? Like, that
37:54
Speaker 2: is the height of Michael Jackson, is the idea of
37:58
Speaker 2: We Are the World. Right.
37:59
Speaker 3: That, you know, this song's not going to work without him.
38:03
Speaker 2: Right.
38:04
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
38:05
Speaker 1: But I do, you know, I know you've probably read
38:09
Speaker 1: this also in many different publications about the time it
38:15
Speaker 1: took to actually finish this film and how much.
38:17
Speaker 3: They actually shot that had to get cut.
38:19
Speaker 1: Because, you know, I've read that that film was initially
38:23
Speaker 1: supposed to be like this big three and a half
38:25
Speaker 1: hour epic or whatever. And they had to chop it
38:28
Speaker 1: down to two hours. And there's like all sorts of
38:30
Speaker 1: things that got cut. We don't know if it got filmed. And,
38:33
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen like online people have shared since
38:36
Speaker 1: the movies come out, like principal photography of Jafar Jackson
38:41
Speaker 1: and different different types of moments in Mike's life that
38:46
Speaker 1: weren't in the film.
38:48
Speaker 3: So who knows?
38:49
Speaker 1: They may have they may have shot something like that
38:51
Speaker 1: and just didn't make the film.
38:52
Speaker 2: But I don't see how it doesn't make the film.
38:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.
38:55
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I did also think, why would
38:57
Speaker 1: you not put that in the film?
38:59
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? Like, that was... You know, that's... Okay,
39:04
Speaker 2: I guess, right? A lot of it, obviously, gets to
39:07
Speaker 2: the Pepsi fire, which I do think that historically, especially
39:11
Speaker 2: with the circumstances around his death, it's important to build
39:14
Speaker 2: that up in the movie, especially if they're plans to
39:16
Speaker 2: make more movies, because they're clearly building you up to,
39:19
Speaker 2: now he starts taking painkillers.
39:21
Speaker 3: Right?
39:22
Speaker 2: And, you know, whatever... Everything else that leads to that.
39:26
Speaker 2: It also gets to that bit of awkward ending. which
39:30
Speaker 2: is ending with bad as a full musical number and
39:39
Speaker 2: so this is my thought on that and i'm curious
39:41
Speaker 2: what you think if you want to get into like
39:45
Speaker 2: a verse of bad Because to me, Bad is like
39:48
Speaker 2: a novelty single. I don't think of it as an
39:49
Speaker 2: enduring great. It's an easy-to-remember hook, but the hook also
39:54
Speaker 2: is really, really bad. What? Like, you got Quincy Jones
40:01
Speaker 2: and Rob Tipton on the line and everybody else, and
40:04
Speaker 2: all you start with, yo, but it's mine. And the
40:08
Speaker 2: hook is really, really bad. Yeah, Mike, we scared of you, dog.
40:12
Speaker 4: Mike.
40:13
Speaker 2: But it ended with a full, like the end of
40:15
Speaker 2: the movie is a full musical number of bad. And
40:18
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would have done a little bit of
40:22
Speaker 2: bad and then end, which to me is the most
40:26
Speaker 2: impactful song on bad. And the one that he was
40:31
Speaker 2: closing shows with in 92 is, And that's Man in
40:34
Speaker 2: the Mirror. Like, that's the way to me that you
40:38
Speaker 2: wrap it up, especially if the idea of this is
40:40
Speaker 2: that Michael Jackson is coming into his own. He is
40:42
Speaker 2: becoming his own man. I am looking at the man
40:46
Speaker 2: in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways.
40:49
Speaker 1: That'd also be a great name for a sequel to
40:51
Speaker 1: the movie.
40:51
Speaker 3: Man in the Mirror. You know what I mean?
40:53
Speaker 2: I guess it might be coming, right?
40:54
Speaker 3: It might be coming. They ain't stopping.
40:57
Speaker 2: This Michael Jackson train. Not after all this goddamn money
40:59
Speaker 2: they made.
41:00
Speaker 3: Not at all.
41:00
Speaker 2: They ain't stopping this one right here.
41:02
Speaker 3: It's going to get weird.
41:03
Speaker 2: It's going to get weird when they get to the
41:04
Speaker 2: next part, right? We're going to have to reckon with
41:08
Speaker 2: some things.
41:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, a whole lot of things.
41:11
Speaker 2: But I just thought that if you're going to do this,
41:13
Speaker 2: you got to build up and make every music, especially
41:17
Speaker 2: because the thing about Mike's music is it's so grand. Yeah.
41:21
Speaker 2: Like off the wall, those songs are not, I would
41:24
Speaker 2: not charge, like term those as being grand. And I
41:26
Speaker 2: mean that in a good way. I don't always love
41:28
Speaker 2: my music to be grand, but like bad music, Bad
41:31
Speaker 2: is a very grand record. There's a reason why bad
41:34
Speaker 2: had all these top 10 hits, but we don't think
41:36
Speaker 2: of it as being as cold as, like, I don't
41:38
Speaker 2: think bad's as good as dangerous, to be honest.
41:40
Speaker 1: No, I don't either. But here's my take on bad,
41:44
Speaker 1: just that era of Mike. And I had to be
41:46
Speaker 1: convinced of this. I think it was my homie, Mad Skills,
41:48
Speaker 1: that I had a conversation with about this. But I
41:52
Speaker 1: do think bad, that era of Mike, the bad era,
41:56
Speaker 1: was Mike operating at his speed.
41:58
Speaker 3: The peak of his Michael-ness. You know what I mean?
42:02
Speaker 1: And I say that because it was the first thing post-thriller.
42:06
Speaker 1: And even though it wasn't thriller, nothing was going to
42:09
Speaker 1: be thriller after thriller, to be honest about that. That
42:12
Speaker 1: was just, you know, a lightning in the bottle type thing.
42:14
Speaker 1: But Bad delivered. And this was Mike truly, truly, truly solo.
42:23
Speaker 3: This was the.
42:26
Speaker 1: I don't know how much Quincy was involved in bad
42:29
Speaker 1: or if he was involved that much at all.
42:31
Speaker 2: He was quite involved and that is a controversial topic. Hmm.
42:36
Speaker 3: There you go.
42:37
Speaker 1: But even that, like, that era of Mike is when
42:45
Speaker 1: Mike was, well, Mike.
42:47
Speaker 3: Truly felt like the solo star.
42:51
Speaker 1: Where it felt like we were getting the version of
42:55
Speaker 1: Mike that Mike saw of himself in his head.
42:58
Speaker 3: Yes. You know what I mean? I think that era,
43:00
Speaker 3: that era was when that actually was.
43:02
Speaker 1: When that was happening, which is why I always, I
43:05
Speaker 1: referenced that as the, the peak of Michael's Michaelness musically,
43:09
Speaker 1: you know, it is what it is.
43:12
Speaker 3: It's not, it's not thriller. It's not off the wall.
43:14
Speaker 1: It's not even dangerous as you just pointed out, but
43:18
Speaker 1: you know, when you look at it, it is, it is, uh,
43:23
Speaker 1: grand in scale, but if you take away the title
43:28
Speaker 1: track and you look at, bro, that record has Liberian
43:32
Speaker 1: Girl on it.
43:32
Speaker 3: Yes, it does.
43:34
Speaker 1: Another part of me. It's got I Just Can't Stop
43:40
Speaker 1: Loving You. These are like superior Michael Jackson songs.
43:44
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
43:46
Speaker 1: And outside of the singles, you know, the.
43:50
Speaker 2: Way you make me feel is a monster. Bro!
43:53
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying? Come on. And to your point,
44:00
Speaker 3: I had to be convinced.
44:01
Speaker 1: Because I was like, man, what I'm saying now, the
44:06
Speaker 1: notion that this was peak Michael, I rejected it at
44:09
Speaker 1: first when it was brought to me. I was like,
44:10
Speaker 1: no way. And then I had to sit back and look.
44:13
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what? And all around,
44:18
Speaker 1: you could make a point that that.
44:20
Speaker 3: Is the case.
44:21
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look, he wrote basically all the songs,
44:25
Speaker 2: which was not the case before. You write a handful
44:28
Speaker 2: here and there, but he wrote all the songs. Problem
44:31
Speaker 2: is with an album like this, you take two and
44:33
Speaker 2: a half years to do 10 tracks. I saw somebody
44:35
Speaker 2: make this point online where Some of those songs, by
44:39
Speaker 2: the time they came out, felt dated. Like the 80s
44:41
Speaker 2: were moving so fast that you could not put a
44:46
Speaker 2: song as it was in 1985 on an album that
44:49
Speaker 2: came out in 1987. Chuck D talks about that with
44:55
Speaker 2: the first P.E. album, where he felt like it came out.
44:57
Speaker 2: He was like, yo, it was an early 86 sound,
45:00
Speaker 2: and we came out in late 86. And so he
45:03
Speaker 2: talked about when Rebel Without a Pause was dropped, that
45:06
Speaker 2: he was like, as soon as they recorded it, put
45:08
Speaker 2: it out. Like, we can't wait to put it on
45:11
Speaker 2: an album next year. And they did eventually put it out,
45:13
Speaker 2: but it's like, you got to put it out now
45:14
Speaker 2: because things are moving so fast. This was in that
45:16
Speaker 2: same time period. I just feel like it's an album
45:19
Speaker 2: where the sum of its parts is, the individual singles
45:25
Speaker 2: as a collection of singles, it is better than the
45:28
Speaker 2: sum of its parts.
45:29
Speaker 3: I can agree with that.
45:31
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? But like, it's, it's got songs,
45:33
Speaker 2: it's got jams. And so it would have been interesting
45:36
Speaker 2: to see if that movie had gone a little bit
45:38
Speaker 2: past that, but leading, ending the movie with, Hey, Mike
45:41
Speaker 2: has done bad. I'm like, nah, nah, nah, nah. You're not,
45:46
Speaker 2: you're not moving me here. I will say this other
45:48
Speaker 2: thing too. And I know some of y'all haven't seen
45:50
Speaker 2: the movie, but I mean, it's the story of Michael Jackson.
45:52
Speaker 2: You probably know these things. I don't know how this
45:54
Speaker 2: worked in your theater. Mine was packed. I went and
45:57
Speaker 2: saw it at the magic Johnson theater on 125th street. Okay.
46:02
Speaker 2: there was not as much singing and dancing along to
46:05
Speaker 2: the musical numbers as I expected.
46:07
Speaker 3: The part- I was turned up.
46:09
Speaker 1: I mean, I went to a matinee, so my theater
46:11
Speaker 1: wasn't really full, but I was singing along to everything.
46:15
Speaker 2: But I expected even with it being full, maybe those
46:19
Speaker 2: people went the first week. You know what I'm saying?
46:21
Speaker 2: Like maybe the people, there's a selection bias that comes
46:24
Speaker 2: from it. But the part that got the rousing ovation
46:28
Speaker 2: from the audience- is when he was on stage and
46:31
Speaker 2: he announced that that was the last Jackson's tour, which again,
46:34
Speaker 2: he didn't actually tell his daddy. He just went out
46:37
Speaker 2: there and did it in front of the world and
46:39
Speaker 2: walked past his daddy. And that's what everybody clapped for,
46:42
Speaker 2: was that. And I found that to be very interesting
46:45
Speaker 2: that The way that they had built up this idea
46:48
Speaker 2: that this is actually a Michael Jackson coming of age
46:51
Speaker 2: story to be strong enough to defy his father landed
46:54
Speaker 2: with that audience. But never at any point did he
46:57
Speaker 2: get strong enough to say it to his daddy's face.
46:59
Speaker 2: And let us keep in mind, this is a movie.
47:02
Speaker 2: If you saw Straight Outta Compton, which had Dr. Dre
47:06
Speaker 2: out there like Tukey Williams, just whooping ass and taking
47:10
Speaker 2: names at every turn, you could have made Michael Jackson
47:12
Speaker 2: whoever you wanted to be. And they could have very
47:15
Speaker 2: easily put together a scene where he got in Joe's face.
47:18
Speaker 2: I done had enough of this. I run this. They
47:21
Speaker 2: could have very easily did that. And that is not
47:23
Speaker 2: at all what they are building. They are building Michael
47:25
Speaker 2: Jackson as follower. I have never seen anybody make their
47:29
Speaker 2: hero passive aggressive and a little bit like a sucker.
47:32
Speaker 2: like this movie did with Michael Jackson.
47:34
Speaker 1: Man, do you think that speaks to the Generation Z
47:39
Speaker 1: of it all and how social media has made passive
47:42
Speaker 1: aggressiveness be like the norm now?
47:45
Speaker 3: Whereas how we grew up, if you.
47:48
Speaker 1: if you said some slick shit and it hits your face,
47:51
Speaker 1: you probably get a double ass whooping. You know what
47:54
Speaker 1: I'm saying? One for saying the slick shit and one
47:56
Speaker 1: for not being.
47:58
Speaker 2: Not being tiptoes down.
47:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, and being a coward about it after you said it.
48:02
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? It could be some of that,
48:06
Speaker 1: which reminds me of something that when I was watching
48:09
Speaker 1: this movie, the one thing that was on my mind,
48:12
Speaker 1: I don't know if.
48:13
Speaker 3: You saw this, but that was a few years ago.
48:15
Speaker 1: There was a young content creator really young, clearly young,
48:21
Speaker 1: that was getting flamed all over the web because he
48:26
Speaker 1: had this hot take that Taylor Swift was more famous
48:29
Speaker 1: than Michael Jackson.
48:30
Speaker 3: Yes.
48:31
Speaker 1: And I was thinking to myself, like, I wonder what
48:34
Speaker 1: he's thinking about all of this is happening right now.
48:37
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying? Like, a guy that's been.
48:39
Speaker 1: Mike's been dead for a long time, you know, for
48:42
Speaker 1: a long time, and there's a movie being made about him,
48:46
Speaker 1: and the same The same response that was happening in
48:50
Speaker 1: 1983 when he was the biggest star in the world
48:55
Speaker 1: is happening again in 2026.
48:56
Speaker 2: After significant reputational damage. Damage.
49:02
Speaker 3: All sorts of damage. You know what I'm saying? Like, damage.
49:05
Speaker 1: Like, what would seem to be irreparable damage to anyone else,
49:09
Speaker 1: you know?
49:09
Speaker 2: Yo, forget about the child sexual assault allegations, right? How
49:16
Speaker 2: about just being that brand of weirdo? Yep. Nah, we
49:20
Speaker 2: just let that ride. I play with monkeys. Yeah, yeah.
49:23
Speaker 2: We are much more aware of Prince is weird. And
49:26
Speaker 2: Prince is weird was a lot more just I dress weird. Right? Like,
49:31
Speaker 2: I'm a little different than the rest of y'all. Mike's
49:34
Speaker 2: weird is a whole other world of weird. I literally
49:38
Speaker 2: hang out with children. Those are my homies.
49:41
Speaker 1: Those are my real-life friends are 12-year-olds.
49:45
Speaker 2: Right. That's my crew. I am one of what they
49:49
Speaker 2: call them in Peter Pan, the Lost Boys. That was
49:51
Speaker 2: what they called them. Like, I am literally one of these.
49:55
Speaker 2: By the way, I realized I had never... actually consume
49:59
Speaker 2: Peter Pan because Nick's daughter was in a production of
50:02
Speaker 2: Peter Pan at her school and I went and checked
50:04
Speaker 2: it out and I was like, wow, this is a
50:05
Speaker 2: really dark story for children, guys. What are we doing?
50:11
Speaker 1: That goes into, we'll talk about this offline, but I
50:14
Speaker 1: have my whole conspiracy theory about Disney and that's a
50:20
Speaker 1: conversation for offline for sure. But that Peter Pan feeds
50:25
Speaker 1: right into it because that is a very dark story.
50:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. But that's what we got, man. Like, this was
50:32
Speaker 2: worth the time. Like, it was worth checking out. I'm
50:35
Speaker 2: curious to see how the rest of it goes. But it's,
50:39
Speaker 2: they're clearly, as all these films are, building the, building
50:45
Speaker 2: for the estate.
50:46
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
50:48
Speaker 1: I kind of feel bad for Jermaine's son. And not
50:51
Speaker 1: in a way, not in a, you know, like, You know,
50:56
Speaker 1: I fear for his life, for his safety, any type thing.
50:58
Speaker 1: I feel bad because now you finna have to go
51:00
Speaker 1: to work forever, don't you? You Michael Jackson now.
51:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:07
Speaker 1: You finna have to go. Your work ain't never going
51:09
Speaker 1: to stop, dog. You know what I'm saying? You're going
51:11
Speaker 1: to be hard-pressed to do. And I also want to–
51:15
Speaker 1: I mentioned Coleman Domingo as being one of the– Jafar
51:18
Speaker 1: Jackson put on a fantastic performance as his uncle. Right,
51:22
Speaker 1: he put on a fantastic performance. So I don't want
51:24
Speaker 1: to disparage him in that way. But, bro, I don't
51:27
Speaker 1: know if you realize what you signed up for, man.
51:29
Speaker 1: You fit to be Mike forever.
51:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where you need to make sure that check
51:35
Speaker 2: was right.
51:36
Speaker 3: Man, what?
51:39
Speaker 2: Hey, man, that's DJ Wally Sparks. Check him out, twitch.tv
51:43
Speaker 2: slash DJ Wally Sparks. Want to call us on the
51:45
Speaker 2: ones and twos. My brother, I appreciate you. Hey, man,
51:48
Speaker 2: thank you for having me, man. I always enjoy conversations
51:51
Speaker 2: with you, bro.
51:52
Speaker 3: Man, I appreciate it.
51:53
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here
51:54
Speaker 2: on The Right Time. We do this four days a week.
51:57
Speaker 2: Ryan Brumley handling everything behind the scenes.
51:58
Speaker 3: Thank you, sir.
51:59
Speaker 2: Hit the voicemail line 323-596-7767. Go to BomaniJonesLive.com. Get tickets
52:05
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52:08
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52:20
Speaker 3: Take it easy.
52:25
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.