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GUEST EPISODE: ADHD mixed with College? · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: Hi everybody, welcome back to Brilliant Minds with a big old question mark. I'm Olivia and this is my beautiful business partner. Andrea: Hi, I'm Andrea. Olivia: and we are out on the prowl as usual, off the clock, no longer being therapist, thank God. And Andrea: The prowl is real. Andrew: Mm-hmm. Olivia: yeah. And I'm very, very, very excited today because I get to claim absolute nepotism and favoritism at the same time and welcome my super awesome best friend Andrew, has been in more school than anything else in his life. Andrew: It's my whole life. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Andrew: All of it. Olivia: It is your whole life. one of kind of like the the main things that we were gonna talk to Andrew a little about a little bit about is just like navigating the educational system, being neurodivergent. because you've been to more school again than like anyone I'll ever know. I feel like you're probably a a really good Andrew: God. It's okay. Olivia: person to ask. so just to get everyone up to speed, even though I I already know a lot of the answers to these questions, When did you originally get diagnosed as being neurodivergent? Andrew: I got diagnosed almost exactly three years ago. Like three years and like two weeks I think is something close to that. So I only found out pretty recently when I started Olivia: You're like super late diagnosed. Andrew: Teehee, yeah. And I was like, Wow, I'm really struggling Andrea: We love we love our late diagnosers. Andrew: to like do things, but I don't feel depressed anymore. The self loathing's like decreased. So like why am I struggling so much and then like journey? Olivia: Yeah. Did you have any like inkling before you got diagnosed that you had anything? No. What did you think? I mean what d what did you think it Andrew: Because I have no insight to myself at all. So I like don't. Olivia: was? Andrew: I thought I was just an idiot. I thought I was lazy, to be honest. Andrea: Okay, question though, for some context for me, explain how much schooling you've been in. Cause Olivia just keeps saying you've been in so much school. Andrew: that's fair. so right now I'm getting my PhD in economics at the University of Colorado. I'm working on that. Right before this, I got a master's in economics in MPhil in a at the University of Oxford, so at Oxford in the UK. And my goal originally was to try and continue the PhD there. Which for them in the US it's like all inclusive five years, but at Oxford it's principally like two separate years of that master's and three years of the PhD, or the research portion rather. so I finished the tourist two years. I got in to continue, yay me, but then they didn't fund me and I didn't have like a quarter of a million dollars laying around. So I couldn't stay. Andrea: That's fair. Andrew: unfortunate. Still mourning that dream a little bit. before that I was working for four years and had hunted for a job for f one before that. And then I done a one year master's degree in development economics. And then right before that I went to that master's directly after my undergrad. Right before that I triple majored, so I technically have two bachelor's degrees. I did in mathematical, business economics, Japanese and political science. And I had minors in international affairs and Asian studies. I schmoozed all the Andrea: What's wrong with you? Andrew: department heads being like, my god, wouldn't this like totally count for this? There's a cap Sorry, there's a cat episode. Olivia: It's okay, we know you have ADHD. We already covered that Andrew: Yeah. I live below ground, for those of you don't have context. Like I have a window but there's barely any. I just showed them earlier. And so seeing anything is quite shocking, in fact. Andrea: Ha ha ha Olivia: So he's been in a lot of school. Andrew: I have done so much school. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Well Olivia: And he also voluntarily like does other things. Like he speaks Japanese and also is like voluntarily learning French as well. Andrew: Yeah. Yeah I actually finally finished that class. Andrea: Okay. Do you think you'll ever not be in school? Andrew: I better I don't think my I can make it much further. They're paying me now. Ha! I found Andrea: this trajectory seems telling. Andrew: out just like like two days ago that someone like people in the business school make a thousand dollars more a month than me. I'm really angry about that. Anyway, so sorry. But Olivia: Wow. Andrew: yeah, I better be done soon because I I might kill myself if I keep taking classes like I can't handle it anymore. Especially 'cause I s I struggle with it so so much. It's like it's very difficult for me. like languages are easier, I think, for me generally, but like I s it's like takes so much out of me that like my quality of life like like when I'm in school. And I do Andrea: I think it's it Andrew: it because it's like important to my goal. Andrea: I will say I do think it's interesting that you just thought you were an idiot, but you have this many degrees. Olivia: Right. Yeah. It Andrew: Idiosy runs eternal. I thought that forever. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: That was a very like therapisty thing of me to say. I am off the clock. Andrew: With me, Olivia: But it but Andrew: there's plenty of personalities to go around for being back Andrea: Ha ha ha ha. Andrew: on the clock, don't worry. Olivia: So because you were later diagnosed, like if you compared your time in education, like in high school, college and all that, like getting your first masters that's such a stupid sentence, getting your first masters Andrew: Yeah, I agree. Olivia: and you compare that being undiagnosed, unmedicated, the whole thing, to Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: navigating getting like the educational system, getting your masters and all that with a diagnosis. Like how do those two experiences compare at all? Andrew: So for context for all the people who don't know me that are gonna be watching this, I both of my master's degrees were in the UK. so the UK has kind of like a very different system in a lot of ways. But my second master's was in Oxford, so it was a touch hard. There was some serious psychological warfare going on there that I'm still recovering from. But I don't know, like describe it. There's certain aspects of it that like made it a lot easier, right? Like getting extra testing time and stuff because like I I do well in like essay writing things when I can kind of just stream of consciousness. like throw things together. But especially for like math, which economics is especially at this level is effectively just an applied math degree, which math has always been my worst subject, so. Neat neat. it's yeah, anyway, sorry. Olivia: Hahaha Andrew: It's that makes a huge difference because then I can be a lot slower and meticulous and I'm way less likely to make dumb mistakes that just like destroy me, right? Olivia: Mm Andrew: so that's been like a really big improvement. Olivia: I know, I'm like really like making you reach back to like years and years ago. Andrew: Yeah. There's fewer like even Olivia knows us that like especially my first year, Oxford was like a living hell. because it was really hard for me to get my medication and all sorts of other things that were going on, I was just an absolute husk. which you can get more too later if you want to. But Before I got diagnosed, there were actu there were like moments of critical failure where I basically almost failed out. I had that happened in high school. Or no, maybe not Olivia: Mm. Andrew: failed out, but f like critical failure. So like my senior year of high school, the bane of my one of the banes. There's two books that are the bane of my existence. Withering Heights. I I cannot tell you how many tries times I tried to read that book. I would sit there and reread the same page. I think I got maybe got 30 pages in. I tried so hard. I Countless countless hours trying to read Olivia: Ha ha ha! Andrew: that book. But I'd write an essay for it. I just physically couldn't do it. I didn't end up turning in an essay, so I got a zero on it. So there was a point where I wasn't gonna f pass my senior English class and that I wouldn't have been able to graduate. I did not I don't think I told anyone about that at the time. I managed to Olivia: Hmm. Andrew: pull through, tee. And then I like murdered that was like an AP English class and then I like murdered that AP exam. So get good. My grade got changed in the end, I think. Well, not that I bothered checking after that point. But And then my first year of undergrad also there's other like accenuating circumstances to this too. But I really, really, really struggled. particularly with like doing a lot of homework. Like I had ironically my first statistics class. I I almost failed, I think I got like a D or something like that in it. 'cause I just couldn't bring myself to do the homework. Like I tried. I like killed the exams, I understood the material, I just couldn't do it. Olivia: Hmm. Andrew: Yeah, and then that led me to be like lose my scholarship effectively. which w I was able to appeal and get it back and then I killed it there on. I killed my personal well being too, because like any free time I had I just filled. And that's how I was for a long time. And I still sort of am, I guess, compared to most people, but compared to my past, I'm so much better about it. But Olivia: Well, you had w like three majors and two minors or something stupid, so Andrew: Yeah. Easy. No, not easy. The political science one was comparably easy. I got an A in every political science class I ever took. And I loved that for. Olivia: Look at you. Andrew: Wish I was that good at math. Olivia: I mean, you actually touched on something that I was curious about because I I've seen more like recent commentary, ironically, through social media of different people talking about what accommodations are actually helpful for people that are neurodivergent in Andrew: Mm. Olivia: different educational programs or systems, right? Like high school or college or higher education, Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: all that. And since I never got accommodations 'cause I was also late diagnosed and I will never go back to the educational system, whereas you seem to be, paying tribute constantly. Yeah. Andrew: I am the poster child for abuse of relationship with me in education. Like I I will never leave him, baby. Like I just won't. Andrea: I was gonna say Andrew: It's so bad. It's my fault. Yeah. I threw myself Andrea: Yeah. There's a codependency happening here. Olivia: Ha ha ha. Andrew: into the door sill. It's my fault. Olivia: so I'm curious like what accommodations are helpful for you or like what what accommodations Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: have you had and which ones have actually like been helpful for you? Andrew: Honestly, the only accommodation I've literally okay, that's not true. I've had one other here. But at least at Oxford, the only accommodation, which is I got diagn the stuff before that, the first masters in my undergrad, I wasn't diagnosed for so I didn't any issue Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: other than trauma. but tee that's how I get humor. But so at Oxford I literally just got testing time. That was it. Effectively. Yeah, I could have maybe tried to pr pursue sorry. Olivia: That was it. So just like more time, that was all? Was does that now I'm curious because p like even all schools do this a little bit differently. Did you have extra time in conjunction with your peers or were you like separated out and tested at a completely different time on your own with extra time? Does that make sense? Andrew: Yes, it does make sense. I was in a separate space for it depended on the exam. But I was most Olivia: Mm. So it wasn't like standardized. Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: Yeah, no, not at Oxford at least. for the big first year exams I was separate with the other special kiddos. in a smaller room. Which they had like this crazy examination school that was like Baroque Palace and like that being the place where your dreams die basically that you like see this not going well. 'Cause it's a hundred percent of your grade, right? That's like really like Angelic singing in the background, like, take me away. But First one the first year I was separate for all of the Olivia: interesting. Okay. Andrew: second year ones no. There were some that I took in like a huge room and other people just left before me. And there was one guy who typed Unbelievably loud. I c I I usually don't get bothered by sound that much. I couldn't believe the computer survived. Yeah, it was like let me make sure I don't like It was like Andrea: During a test though, during a test nightmare. Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: it was insane, like I couldn't believe he didn't break the keyboard immediately. Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: Or she, I don't know who it was. Olivia: my gosh. I've I just I I don't know why it's so like interesting to me because I've never gotten accommodations Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: and also like everyone's flavor of neurodivergence is so different because I like Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: I'm trying to think about myself accommodation ones wise for a test and like being separated out would be harder for me. Andrew: Yeah. I like having background noise generally, like so Olivia: Right. Andrew: I don't super love being separated out. Like the sound of people leaving, fine. I can like I don't want that Olivia: Right. Andrew: maybe, but yeah. And then here I also got they had like a note-taking service called like Genio. that I use sometimes to like record the lectures. I didn't take video of it, but I recorded the audio. And I did that faithfully for the first term. They don't Olivia: Are you not normally allowed to record the lectures? Andrew: Well I guess I could ask, but they don't typically. I don't know why here. They just don't. Olivia: so you're like not allowed, so you literally have to get an accommodation to record? Andrew: Yeah, and it's like supposed to be more powerful of like it can like you can like make notes at the same time and like it can do other cool things too, but it's really contrary Olivia: Well wait w Andrew: to how I learn anyway. I basically just have to like repetition into the absolute dirt and like make flashcards and just drill. So it's not it wasn't helpful for me. Olivia: Okay, what is this tool? I'm so confused. Andrew: called Genio? G it's it like No, it's a computer thing. So it's on the computer. Yeah, yeah. Olivia: But is it like a physical thing or is it like like it's like a program? Andrew: Hi, I'm Andrew and I can descript. yeah. Yeah it's like a computer. No. No, it's like it's it's whatever you need it to be. Yeah. That'd Olivia: I was like, is it a pen? Is it a pair of glasses? Like is it a megaphone? Like what is it? Andrea: It's it's the meta glasses. It's just you put them on and you Andrew: be way more convenient. No, it it's basically just like a Andrea: Can I coin that? Andrew: computer program. So like I had my laptop open in class And I'd set it to record and I'd also take like hand notes on like a separate application. But you can do that too on it. It's just like much less convenient. and it can do other things too. it can transcript things as well. It can do a lot of stuff, but it's just like re-watching the lecture's not gonna help me much at all. Olivia: I guess I'm just like curious, to me that doesn't really feel like an accommodation, 'cause anyone could use that and the professor would have no idea. Right? Andrew: But it's an accommodation. They gave it to me for free. That's the accommodation. Andrea: I wonder well, I wonder if that has to do with like recording laws in different states, because like in Olivia: Mm. Andrea: Arizona you don't have to ask for permission to record anyone, but in Washington State there is like a there's a I don't I don't remember the name of the law, but there is a law. Olivia: You can like Yeah, it's like you can only do audio or like video with no audio or something like that. But if it's like both, you have to ask or something. Andrea: Yeah, w I looked it up for medical appointments for just audio and in Washington State I had to ask every single provider, but here in Arizona I can record without them knowing. So I'm curious Yeah. Andrew: You live in Arizona? you're so far. I didn't realise that was that Andrea: Yeah. So I wonder if that's why it's like considered an accommodation, maybe in specific settings. Cause I've heard that too, that those are accom Andrew: Yeah. Andrea: like recording devices are accommodations. Andrew: Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Hmm. Andrew: at Oxford ever basically everything was recorded. or at least in theory was recorded in the first year. Like it didn't it's broken, but like Andrea: It also just like makes it makes sense to just record things. Like why are we not recording lectures? Like Olivia: Right. But that's what I'm saying. Like why wouldn't anyone use that? Why is that? Andrew: I think their psychosis is that it encourages Andrea: I know. Andrew: people to like come to class if you don't record it because then they're actually missing stuff. Whereas like no one will show up if it's like Andrea: So it's capitalism? Andrew: just available. Andrea: So it's like parallel of capitalism, you're paying us, so you must come. Olivia: Yeah, huh, that's not interesting. Was it was it challenging to get accommodations? Andrew: here, no. It was so easy. Olivia: That's awesome. Yay. Andrew: Yeah, I like sent an email to like the disabled peeps and was like, hey Queen, here's my diagnosis letter. Andrea: The short bus. Andrew: Yeah, I was like, here's my diagnosis letter, like, drop. please help me. And they're like, Okay, yeah, we need to like schedule a phone call. Did that like within two weeks, I think. If not faster Olivia: wow. Andrew: than that. And then they're like, yeah. And I was talking about I think I got like a quarter more time or something at Oxford and I get more here. And like the person had seen that like, I don't know why they don't give me more time than that. This is our default. And I just like and then she's like, okay, well you'll get a determination letter. Boop. They also like have housing also can be an accommodation, like guaranteed housing, but that's only if you like are more like pro-disabled than me. if you have like physical disabilities that need to be accommodated rather than just like no executive function for apartment searching. So Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I still feel like hopefully in the future we could we could like umbrella that in 'cause that's so real though. Andrew: I love trying to hunt for places. It's really easy. Olivia: Yeah. Okay, but then you alluded to like Oxford was not easy to get an accommodation. Andrew: Mm mm. I reached out to the d the accommodations people I think in like June before I went. Something like that. Maybe July. Well I found out I didn't have housing in like the end of July or like end of July and I was moving there like the second week of September or something like that. I was like, okay cool. Whatever it was. No, maybe later even later than that. I don't remember. I had like a month. I remember having like just a month to find a place. Which is not enough. Because like all the cheap places book out. which ended up leading Andrea: And not enough time for a neurodivergent person either, like Andrew: Yeah, which ended up leading me to find the cheapest place I could afford, but then I had roommates that never did dishes or anything like that, so I couldn't cook. So then I also in my college I had to book my meals ahead of time, which meant to me skinny. like I forget to book my meals ahead of time for like lunch and dinner. I eventually found out that lunch you can show up and get like a pasta option at least, but dinner you couldn't. So I couldn't cook at home. I couldn't get like the cheaper meals at my college, so I lost like twenty pounds in eight weeks. But Yeah. Atkins ain't got shit on this. Yeah. Yeah. Go to Oxford. You'll get so skinny. Andrea: Don't get a GLP one. Go to college instead. Olivia: And just get yeah, that's that's what we call the ADHD tax. You just got ADHD taxed weight loss. Andrew: Nailed it. Am I pretty now? So Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: I eventually like just kind of never heard from them. Olivia: Gosh. Andrew: I reached out several times and I just like didn't get anything. And then she's not dead, but rest in power Eleanor, the sort of former disability advisor at my Oxford's divided into a lot of different colleges. So there's like 40 of them, so I was in like one specific one under that umbrella. So the person in charge of like disability stuff for like the graduate students, Eleanor, who ended up coming becoming my roommate. She's a queen. Love her. I asked her, like when I found her and heard like, Yeah, I'm a disability rep, I like, Please help me please And she was able to like hunt people down for me and then I got like But that took until which granted the exams are in June and I didn't really get anything Olivia: So it took like a year. Andrew: No, I got the determination in like November or December, but the exams were in like April. Actually MLR, April. So it took a long time. So it took like six months, yeah. Olivia: S yeah, I was just gonna say that's like six months. Wow. Andrew: Took me longer to get my medication through the NHS, so that was fast. Olivia: my gosh. wild. That's wild. Andrea: If you could if you could create a an additional accommodation to what you already have, is there anything else you would want? Andrew: is like me h actually holding professors accountable to their syllabus and accommodation. Andrea: Ha ha ha. Andrew: Because like Andrea: Let's see how can we reframe Olivia: No. Andrea: that? Andrew: Well, this sounds so bad, but I'm serious in that, like, whenever I don't actually know all the content that they want, or like if there's like the referencing readings too, that was like never on anything else, like I can't plan appropriately, right? And that really, Olivia: Hm Andrew: really matters, and it's not like I can necessarily like summon the extra effort to like plow through extra readings or anything like that. and I'm like I for me it always takes me like I feel like more than twice as much effort than almost anyone else learn the same material. So I have to do the read like the readings and stuff and I have to do all these other things to like be able to try and understand it and then like yeah. Olivia: So basically like more clear or direct expectations. Andrew: Yeah, so it's like I can actually appropriately plan. That'd Olivia: Right. Andrew: be awesome. Andrea: That is that is a job accommodation I've actually helped someone get. Is we didn't word it that way, but there's like Andrew: Accountability. What an accommodation. Andrea: have either of you heard of the Jam network? It's the job accommodation network. Olivia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: It's a website, and you can go on it and you can click whatever disability you have, ADHD, autism, physical disabilities, everything. And it will give you recommendations of things that you can ask for job accommodations on. And it's got everything and so we used that to kind of navigate like the autism piece of I need clear direction from my supervisor. How do I ask for that? And that was how we like navigated that and worded that in their accommodation. So it's like it could be, but it depends on how Andrew: That action Andrea: educated the disability service center is. Andrew: That also reminds me, like, exams and stuff that are clear clearly worded and stuff. That's actually been like a really ongoing like struggle of mine too. Of like, especially for Olivia: Mm. Andrew: like econ problems, it's like, what am I allowed to assume? What am I not? Like what are the like the frameworks? Like I have to make assumptions to be able to solve these problems because they're always trying to make extensions, right? But it's not necessarily obvious to me like which route they want me to take. It's all a decision, and then if I get bogged down on that one, I don't finish the problem or takes me way longer, right? There's like this sort of presumption. Andrea: I feel that in my soul. Andrew: Yeah. Like there's sort of presumption that I'll choose the right way or like the right framework of looking at this when there's not necessarily tons of information g given. Oxford the O my Oxford exams were very that way. Very that way. Olivia: Mm. Andrew: But the ones here are a bit better about it, mostly 'cause they're longer. which is like like the whole page. Olivia: Yeah. I I mean that makes sense basically, like their perception is that it's easily understood or like it's easy or like their perception is that everyone would assume the same thing, which is just like Andrew: Yeah. Which is not and I get destroyed on that. I alwa Olivia: Yeah, that makes sense. Andrew: I always make the different choice. Every time. I I just yeah, it's just how it is. Olivia: That was rough. I mean like I was Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: thinking about what accommodation would help me and I was like nothing in comparison to what you're talking about. I like, I just wanna be able to listen to music. Andrew: Yeah, honestly, I I feel that. That'd be nice too. Because especially really silent exam rooms like I struggle with. There's also Andrea: Mm. Olivia: And then if you have longer time like having more time would be terrible for me. And this is like actually Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: commentary that I've seen is that like for people that are ADHD, ha or like r ADHD is like a really that's the primary barrier, more time is worse for them. Andrea: Mm-hmm. I want the illusion of more time. Like I want I want more in the sense of like I want more time, but I'm not gonna use that entire time. Like for my therapist exam, I think I had like three and a half hours or something, and I did it in an hour and a half. But knowing that I had three and a half hours was like, I like actually feel good about this. But I would add to that like having breaks to like get up and do something and then come back to it would be. Olivia: Right. Well and and that's and that's that Andrea: Chef's guess. Olivia: was like the accommodation piece that I saw for ADHD folks, is that like instead of having more time being able to take breaks and stop the testing time. and like get up, move around, like look out the window, like not have their phone or any of that, but like how that's infinitely more helpful than more time. Andrew: I don't know if that would necessarily help me just because well, especially like a lot of the problems are so long. It'll take me well over an hour to s like solve them and stuff, right? So if I break that up and I kind of like Olivia: Mm. Andrew: I especially my working memory is really bad. So once I pick everything up and able to like internalize it, like I've had so many times where I'm just staring at a problem and like I can't hold all the information at once, so I just keep rewriting like all of the framing of it until I can actually like internalize it. Which is Olivia: Mm. Andrew: always frustrating because it's like would love to make progress. So like breaking that, like once I have it, I break that, getting back into it's so extremely difficult for me. One thing, this isn't school, Olivia: that makes sense. Andrew: but work Andrea: That's true. Andrew: accommodation, but like r remote work was huge before I got like my medication stuff. That was like tremendous. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: Mm. Olivia: What was good about it? Andrew: On like the bad days that like I couldn't like end up facing most of the world, I could still at least like log on and do some stuff and just like accept a later start time, like not get penalized for it and still be productive rather than trying to say take a sick day just because I can't Olivia: Mm. Andrew: get out of bed by seven thirty, whatever it was. That was huge. Olivia: Yeah. Hmm. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Didn't think about that. Andrea: Flexible start flexible start times for work accommodations too need to be more common. Like Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: That was a game changer for me when I started doing my own thing. Olivia: yeah. Andrea: Wake. Olivia: yeah. Andrew: Which is one of the things that sucks about academia is like you have to show up to this class at this time. Andrea: Right. Andrew: Which most Olivia: Mm. Andrew: of mine aren't that early. I did have an eight AM, but I quite liked it. And I had a decent attendance and I like, they like me. Andrea: I think that's why I did really well with online school. Was because I like didn't have to go to like during the last half of my masters I had did have to go to a class, but like it was at the end of the day, so was so much easier. But doing online school I could just be like, I'll do it after work. Like would do it whenever I want to. Olivia: Yeah, I think online school worked for me so well because I was home schooled and I already knew I had I had already had to learn how to set my own routine, essentially. And Andrew: Yeah. It's generally terrible for me 'cause I don't focus well at home mostly. So I can go to cafes, but Yeah. I Olivia: I mean, I wouldn't say I focus great at home, but you know, like I Andrea: That's fair too. Andrew: can go to cafe, to be fair. That's what I do. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I love working at a cafe. my gosh. I'm doing that tomorrow. Olivia: That's basically that Andrew: Capital One Cafe, Denver. My peeps live there. Olivia: Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, any time I know that you're studying, you're at a cafe. Like Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: you never study at home. Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Very rarely. It has to be Andrea: I love that. Andrew: super light. Andrea: There's something about like barista sounds that are like oddly like I don't know. Andrew: I agree. It's it's like the background sound that it's like not like distinct enough such that you can pick out words really in conversations and like your brain wants to focus on it. Like for me there's like Andrea: Yes. Yeah. Andrew: the part that like wants simulation that it's like there are things going on and it's like, Okay, go play. Like get out of my way. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, but if the music is too loud, I gotta go. I gotta go do something like somewhere else. Like I will go coffee shop to coffee shop until it feels right. I've done it. Olivia: I I get too distracted in coffee shops. It's like I pe I just go into like people watch mode. I can't it's like it's too much stimulus. I don't know. That's like bonkers to me. I I I can't work in a cafe at all. Andrew: A squared. We can work together. We can portray yeah, work together. Andrea: Yep. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I work so well in coffee shops. It's kind of bananas. Olivia: I just don't I don't get it. That's okay. Andrea: Ha Olivia: That's okay. I don't need more time for test taking. You know the exam I had to take for my license, we got four hours to do my exam, like the the social work exam. And I did it in forty minutes. Andrew: Get schooled. Wow Just dunk on Peasants all in your way. My Andrea: Okay, nerd. Andrew: god. Who needs an hour for f I think the exams I took for my my prelims I think my prelims were like a four hour over four hours each or four hours. Olivia: But I remember getting through like I okay, background. I generally testing is not generally something I really struggle with. I don't generally get a lot of like testing anxiety. Like it usually tests come down to like memorization. And at least up in my schooling, like if it was just a matter of memorizing something, then I would just just run it into my brain just an insane amount of times until I could remember it. Cause like my working memory isn't great. But I was like, if this is just a matter of like will to memorize it, fine. Like I can do that. but I'm also not doing like these insane mathematic questions that Andrew's doing that like I Andrew: I don't think I'm doing them. I think they're doing me. Like I am not. I am not the driver in that process. There's some prayers to any god that'll listen. There's like a little pentagram to someone like the demons that will like bestow the power I need. There's a lot. There's a lot going on there. Mascara just running. Olivia: Yeah. I mean I kinda surprised myself with the exam too. Like I I just got through. I also know myself well enough to know that if I go back, I'll end up doubting myself and picking end up like end up picking the wrong answer. So like Andrea: Mm. Olivia: that's also something I learned about myself is like I can't go going back makes it worse. but I remember I got out of the exam and I like texted my husband And I was like, Hey, like I passed and he was like, You took it already? Like you I feel like you Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: just got there Andrew: Trivial. Easy. Olivia: I remember you and the lady was like, Do you wanna do you wanna take your aunt? I'm like, Andrea: My mum Olivia: No, I'm good. Andrea: I I took an hour and a half and my mom still said something like that to me. Andrew: You did it in half the time, don't mouth breather, Andrew? No. Olivia: Well, her her exam is different than mine. We have different exams, technically. So Andrea: Yeah. They're both pretty Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: shitty though. Andrew: No, I believe that. Olivia: Yeah, they're yeah, they're stupid. I remember I like did the Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: math of I I think the exam I can't remember how many questions on were on the exam. I wanna say like it's like a hundred and was it over two hundred questions? Andrea: Mine was over two hundred, mine was like three hundred and tw twenty five percent were throwaways. Olivia: Or like test test questions. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Andrew: You did 200 questions in forty minutes. Do you know what pace that is? That's Olivia: Yeah. Ha ha ha. Andrea: Math nerd Andrew: That's mm. Olivia: I th it was about forty five minutes, yeah. I think I think the social work one is like two hundred and forty qu Andrew: You solved a question every twelve seconds. On average. Sixty seconds of minute to forty minutes. You solved a question every twelve seconds, Olivia. Olivia: I did it under an hour for sure. I know that, hands down. Andrea: It says Andrew: Fine. Andrea: the it says the current Andrew: Whatever. Like not fourteen, it's a little Andrea: one is a hundred and seventy questions. Olivia: A hundred and seventy, okay. That's what I was like it's like it's like a hundred Andrew: Blistering. Olivia: and seventy but only like a hundred and fifty or like a hundred and forty, I think, are like actual, actual questions. That like it matters what your answer was. I really hate that. Andrea: Yeah. mine was two hundred. Olivia: Two hundred, yeah. Okay, so this is something to know, Andrew, is is like on the exam there's test test questions. That's that's something that's really frustrating to me. Is there literally just like test test questions that it doesn't matter how you answer, but you don't know which questions are test questions and like test test questions. Could you imagine Andrew: Yeah, yeah, 'cause they're they're trying to see how they distribute. Olivia: if you had that on your exams? Andrew: Well I only have like six questions, where would they put it? Andrea: Ha ha ha. Andrew: Starts A through Z, like where would they put it? Yeah, Olivia: Disclaimer Andrew: like Yeah. Andrea: One of these is not like the other. Andrew: Sacrifice my firstborn to answer the fourth question. Like I've Andrea: Ha ha ha. Andrew: got more kids to give. Like Olivia: My gosh. so I I have to look at the stats because I don't want to completely like y misinterpret or not be accurate to what's out there, but I saw some initial stats around like how many neurodivergent people actually like have masters degrees and like have higher education. And it's a really low percentage of people that are getting masters and like graduate degrees that are neurodivergent. It's like a like a really low number. Andrea: Are we talking diagnosed neurodivergent people? Olivia: I'm not quite sure. I like again, I like I saw the statistic and I was like looking at it a little bit. and I didn't like look too much more into it. So I don't wanna I was like I th I think I saw something around like it like less than ten percent. Andrew: Good. They should run. I don't recommend this choice. Olivia: But I I'd I ha I'd have Andrea: I'm surprised. Olivia: Yeah. Well it's surprising and not surprising at the same time. And why I think it's Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: surprising is because I think neurodivergent people when they like really want something and they can get after it. Especially like if it's a special interest or something that they're really passionate about, like they could totally do it. But I can also see why like maybe more people that are neurodivergent don't do it because they've had so many challenges with like like education in general or like navigating that system. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew: It's so hard. Olivia: which kinda like leads me to a question of for you of have you found that generally to be the case, that most of the people in these like graduate programs with you are not neurodivergent? Andrew: this one's kind of atypical because I have I've met like several people that are neurodivergent in this one. Granted, I don't know if they like sat down with psych psychiatrists and got actually diagnosed or if they're being like hot girl, TikTok girl. He's being like, my gosh, sometimes I don't focus. I have the ADHD. But presuming since Olivia: That's fine. Andrew: at least Two of them got actual accommodation. I would assume they're actually diagnosed. But at Oxford, Olivia: Two out of how many though? Andrew: eight. There's eight of us. There's eight PhD students in my year. and then but at Oxford, yeah, there was few. I met in my program, knowingly I met one other person with ADHD that I knew they did. And they took a break on the second year. They didn't complete the second year. I don't I don't know if they're done now Andrea: Wow. Andrew: or what's going on with that, but Yeah, they took a break. They couldn't do it all in one go one fell swoop. Something I don't know if it was like family thing or something going on, but In my program. And then broadly I met one other person with ADHD. Shout out Rotem. who did a master's hers was one year. Mine w it wasn't two. and I don't know if there are any one others, but those are the only one people I like. Like I met Olivia: Really new. Andrew: a couple other, I guess, in my college because I became the disability advisor and I bought tea for them. But there's not many. There's very few. Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: and if they are like Like the I actually went to a disability conference thing at Oxford as like one of the representatives and like I kind of fucking hated it because the whole thing Olivia: no. Andrew: was like, my gosh, like people have special interests and like really look at things. Like that's just called academia. Ha ha ha ha. And I was like pretty pissed about it. I was like, yeah, really gonna feel fucking superpower about having fucking autism. no, there's one person. Sorry, there's one other person I met. He was doing philosophy, he had autism. So I think those are that do make it maybe Olivia: My gosh. Andrea: that tracks. Andrew: skewed more towards autism than the ADHD. Not that I've any sort of facts of just like from who I met. Yeah, anecdotal. Olivia: Anecdotal Well yeah, I'm not asking you to like Andrea: Я Olivia: have run your own research. It was more just like, what's your Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: experience been? Andrew: But and they all like struggle and it like yeah, they all like struggle. Andrea: Mm. Olivia: That's interesting. Andrew: So yeah. So there's not that like and the fact that like the thing was being like, Yeah, they're great professors and stuff, I felt like was like honestly almost like offensive and that it's like over seducely gonna be like, It's your superpower queen when I'm sitting here like can't get my medication. I spent like I think like five thousand dollars like getting like get it in total over those two years getting my medication because I had to get rediagnosed. There's all sorts of other things, like I had to go private psychiatrists and have private insurance anymore because the public system was like backed up for years. Like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? So like people are sitting there being like, You're super power queen and like they had some student speakers that had like kind of very similar, like from what I remember, like really similar like takes, and it's just like are we seriously not gonna talk about these fucking problems? Like, you know what I mean? Like Olivia: Right. Andrew: I hate my life. Like it was horrible. It was horrific. Like the first year in particular, the second year was more manageable. But it was it was so terrible. The whole way it sucked. Like now it's better because the pacing's a little more sane. But like, yeah, there's just like a really willful ignorance. Or there's a lot of like lip service I also encountered because I was also like a diversity rep for the econ department too. In a lot of things of like, I have these XYZ concerns, like, yeah, we're getting on this and it kinda just never materializes. Or like they kind of move the goalpost or other things. Like no one no one has like responsibility for it, basically, or like s cares sufficiently to actually like Olivia: Do anything. Andrew: do anything about it. And I don't know if that's true for like elite institutions generally. Like I once met someone who had a friend who had ADHD, I think it was, and they went to a therapist because they were really, really struggling. And the therapist literally, allegedly literally said to them was like, well it's it's Oxford. Like you should have known what you were getting into. Like that was what they said. Which is like, Andrea: Ugh. Andrew: fuck my drag. Like show myself out. Like why am I here to get shamed additionally? Thanks. Olivia: Right. Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: I hadn't done that myself. Really hadn't thought of it. Olivia: Yeah. Well yeah, just because something's Andrea: Я Olivia: like really freaking challenging, like doesn't mean that you shouldn't have any support or like you should have known or yeah. That's so Andrew: Yeah. Especially since like it's so the main obsession is creating a distribution of grades in basically any way that they can. They're not really aggrieved when that happens, to be honest, either, I don't think. Like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean Olivia: Mm. That's rough. Andrea: the whole the whole like accommodation disability services needs to change across the board, anyways. Like I know that corporations will like implement disability advocacy teams, but literally they do the same thing that you're describing of like, ADHD is your superpower. How do you use it at work? And then poof goes away. Like, that's it. Okay, I'm not gonna get an accommodation now. Like, what's happening here? Andrew: Yeah, there needs to be some some way that there's like accountability for the suggestions, Andrea: Mm. Andrew: like action plan. Like there's like no accountability mechanisms for those like diversity community like committees and other stuff like that. Like, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Andrew: I have in my specific college at Oxford, there was like relatively more action because I yelled about it. But like more. Well, I yelled at Eleanor, like lovingly, and she worked on stuff, and then I continued the crusade as much as Andrea: Mm-mm. Andrew: I could. And then to be fair, the president of like the graduate community at my college, Laura, shout out, was like Killer. Like she fought. She fought specifically they fought specifically against the meal booking system because of like I was not the only person that had the problem. Like other neurodivergent people in my college were like Olivia: Mm. Andrew: losing dramatic amounts of weight and having other problems and like skinny queens. Like and they fought. Yeah, yeah. I just like you yeah. Olivia: Because they like couldn't order ahead essentially or like they forgot to. Yeah. Andrew: Especially weekends. Like if you don't remember by ten AM on the Friday, like no food, no lunch or dinner on the weekend. Andrea: That's the dumbest system I've ever heard for food. Andrew: Most of the colleges don't have it. That's just a sp people specific thing. But they basically like gunned it down and eventually started like investigations such that they realized like the point of the meal booking system was to reduce waste and apparently got worse. or like it's not as good as they thought. Andrea: Interesting. Andrew: So I don't know what happened with that. it takes forever, but their crusade that they started basically at my behest is still ongoing as far as I know. Olivia: Wow. What an asinine system though. Like you have to like with all with the i the insane workload and pacing and testing and stu like all the things you had to do and then you also had to like tell somebody when you were gonna eat by a certain time. Andrew: Ten a.m day of? You have to book your meals by ten a.m. the day of, including if you bring any guests. No. Andrea: Hate that. I hate everything about that. Andrew: I remember actually the first few days I went to because like super like crazy over-the-top dining hall. Like never get used to eating in it. It's like fucking Hogwarts. Yeah, Olivia's seen pictures. It's like insane. Yeah. But Olivia: Yeah, no, it literally lo yeah. He could show you a picture. It looks like it l legitimately looks like cogwarts. It's insane. Yeah. Andrew: so when I was there for like the math pre-course, there was like some sort of conference going on. So I went in and like ate and was able to eat for free because I like misunderstood their question when they first asked me. And like I was like, are you at the conference? I was like, I I guess like I don't. It's like they didn't ask it that way or something. I was really confused. And then someone saw that I came again, realized I was a student, and basically like told me off and said, like, don't come back. Like, don't come back unless like you but like booked or whatever, blah blah blah blah. And like they basically told me not to come back. So I missed them welcome breakfast effectively because I got shamed out for like five, ten minutes in front of the dining hall, if I recall correctly. I got like I got like I did they didn't just like don't come like I got chewed into a little bit on it. so I missed the welcome breakfast like the graduate community at my college because of that, because I just like divorced from it so much comparably. And I didn't even know they offered like after that conference is over, I didn't know they offered breakfast for free like without booking or anything. I didn't even know I could go get it. For a while. Yeah. Olivia: Wow. So not only do they have a crap system, but they also like none of the information to like access the food was apparent in any way. Andrew: No. No, I had to figure it out. I showed up. That's how well that's the first time I learned about the meal booking system is when I started showing up. When I got yelled at about it is when I learned. Which is pretty typical. Andrea: my gosh. Olivia: Talk about needing direct information and clear expectations. Andrew: You also have to get like your own robes and stuff 'cause you have to like basically take your exams in like full suit or close to it and like robes. And no one like you kinda find out from the student body, but no one like there's no clear guidance given to you by the university. You kinda have to figure out and there's only like two places you can get it. So it's just like communication terrible anyway. Moral of that story. Olivia: Wait, you have to like be in a full suit for exams? Andrew: Do you know did I never tell you this? Wanna see a picture? Olivia: That I would want an accommodation for that. I ain't wearing anything nice. Andrew: It's not so bad with a bow tie. Andrea: This sounds very British. Andrew: Yeah, like Olivia: Wild. Andrew: god. There you go. Just gonna zoom in. Yeah, you can see that's what I set my my finals in. So you can see like my little robe tessels. Yeah. Hope this comes back into Andrea: So extra. Andrew: Yeah, but like no one tells you Olivia: That's Oxford. Andrew: that directly. Yeah. So there's just like very little information that just sets you up for failure, basically. Was my experience. Olivia: Wow. Huh. I guess kind of like along those lines. Is there anything about your neurodivergence that feel that you feel as a strength in being in your program? Andrew: Mm. This current one specifically or generally? Olivia: I mean I guess like just generally. It doesn't have to be like right now, but Andrew: Majority I do not feel that way. Olivia: That I feel like we could anyone could infer from this conversation. Andrew: yeah, I don't feel very superpowered. Except when people are like you're super powered queen I'm like Thanks like smoking a cigarette, drinking a handle of gin in the back. Like just like trying to cope. Basically I was not I was not drinking. Honestly, the biggest superpower I feel like I have from it, just generally, like academically, like fine, I think differently than other people, and maybe that's like can be helpful because I approach like thinking things differently and that can be like value like different perspectives and like different ways of thinking about things. Other than that, academically, no. I do not feel like it. Like at all. Olivia: There's no strength. Andrew: No. It's academia is such a like Olivia: Thing. Andrew: rigorous demanding and like set up for not how I am system that I don't think it helps me at all in that sense. Andrea: What about outside Olivia: You think I like Andrea: of academia? Andrew: I feel like the biggest strength of it is like feeling comfortable and immediately rating to like relating like other neurodivergent people. Like you Andrea: Hmm. Andrew: can often tell and like other people are like Olivia: Hm. Andrew: really like off putting or feel awkward by like super autistic people or other things like that and I like don't feel that way, like at all. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: Not nearly that as a way, even like yeah, just like broadly. Olivia: That's really interesting. I know. I 'cause Andrea and I have talked about this before like what's our favorite part or like one of our favorite parts of having A ADHD or like being neurodivergent generally. and I think like one of my things is I think yours what was he yours was like being able to like hyper focus. Andrea: Mm mm. Olivia: Was that one of yours? Andrea: Yeah, when I can do it, yeah. Olivia: Huh, yeah, that's fair. I feel like mine is a little bit like what you were mentioning in in terms of school, but like my like creativity and my being like able to see a like a process and like make it better or more efficient or like create order out of chaos. I feel like I'm really good at that Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: and I don't think I would be very good at that if I wasn't neurodivergent. Andrew: The only like other benefits I can see is like things that have resulted out of my personality because of like the suffering I've gone through from being neuroidivergent that makes me think about things and care about them. Like to be d be honest about it, right? Like the kind of like Olivia: Mm. Yeah. But it's also like Andrew: the justice like injustice sensitivity and things like that. Like, yeah, I feel that real deeply. And like Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: will fight on it. So I'm a r like a decent, I think better than average advocate, because like I lose my mind over it because it angers me so much. But Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: and I'm like willing to like fight people basically. Olivia: Yeah. I mean that's part of like why you are getting a PhD though, right? Andrew: Yeah, that's a whole reason. That's I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. Olivia: is to like fight for justice for like marginalized communities and populations and Yeah. Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's literally the whole reason. It's for Drea who probably doesn't know this and all of you people who don't. I effectively am trying to get my PhD because I want to mostly do research on like economic welfare of like Native American communities in the US because economists basically do zero research on them. And even like a lot of Andrea: yeah. Andrew: govern official government statistics don't like they'll like break things out by race and ethnicity and if you start like think about it now when next time you see those, almost always or like most of the time in my experience, like Native Americans not listed. Andrea: No. Andrew: And that's given the fact that natives are typically more or less like the poorest like ethnic community in the United States, right? they s like yeah. Andrea: Right. That's cool. Olivia: Yeah. Andrew: So that's the whole reason, is 'cause I feel like if I don't try and like better the situation, no one else is gonna care. Olivia: Like who's going to? Andrew: Yeah. Which is maybe not explicitly true. I'm sure there are some people that care, but I sure don't feel like I see it. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: They probably care, but they don't have the action enough to care. Andrew: People think that when they cerebrally care about something, that means that they actually care, but when they don't put action behind it. And I think that's the disconnect for all these like diversity commun communities and all these other things, right? Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: Like people and I think people's like how they contextualize their actions generally of like, I'm not a bad person, like because I don't try to treat people poorly, or like that I don't treat my friends poorly. Well, treating your friends well is really easy, right? Because you like them. You like appreciate them. It's not actually taking anything from you to do it, right? People think they're like, I'm a decent person because I don't do XYZ things to like hurt these communities or like, yeah, I care about like how disabled people are doing. But then when that demands any action out of them, people don't do anything, right? It just never makes it on the list. That doesn't make them a bad person, but that doesn't mean that you actually care and it just perpetuates the system. Andrea: Yeah, a hundred percent. Olivia: Right. Yeah. Andrew: It's just not it's just it's not sufficient, I'm sorry, world. Olivia: Yeah. I think that's like a really good way of saying it, honestly. And describing it. 'Cause yeah. Andrea: Yeah. I think Andrew: It's like an accountability thing. Andrea: I think you just found your strength of your neurodivergence is the justice sensitivity. I do actually see this a lot with neurodivergent people though, that that justice sensitivity that really strong values drive like really makes them good advocates for themselves and the like communities that they're Andrew: No. Andrea: a part of. Like I just I see a ton of that and and I think we need to encourage that so much more. Andrew: Yeah. I now that I'm thinking about too, I think I'm often like a decent communicator when I'm not like scatter brained. But Andrea: Ha ha. Andrew: because I'm I've no idea what to assume in other things, I tend to be like really direct and to the point and like A B C about things. Which a lot of people are not that way. Olivia: Yeah, asking all the clarifying questions. Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: Ha. Andrew: Bontress probably have the autism too. Thanks, Lib. Olivia: You're welcome. Also just to like throw it out there, 'cause we haven't addressed this yet, you got evaluated because of me. Andrew: More or less, yeah. Olivia: I converted you. Andrew: Yeah. You brought it up and I asked my therapist about it, and she was like, No, that makes sense. And that's just Olivia: Pha Andrea: Ha ha ha. Andrew: happened with like TISM, which we'll see. I haven't actually diagnosed for that, so I'm not gonna claim it, but you have at least convinced my therapist and then when we ask more things. Cause I don't like have any insight into myself personally, right? I don't feel like my mind races because I don't know what a normal one feels like, right? And I don't like feel like I ask tons of clarifying questions because I never really realize that people Don't do that. Yeah. Olivia: Don't. Right. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Andrew: So what feels normal to me, like you're saying, like, the routine's super like you have like certain sensory issues, and like routines like ultra important. I'm like, I don't feel that way, but like, yeah, if I don't take a shower before bed, I can't sleep. Or like, yeah, like Olivia: Ha ha ha. Andrea: Mm. Andrew: there are cracks in the sidewalk, and if I don't have like the pressure, like the indentation, the pressure, and like the angling like the coloration and the shadows, like all even and like different parts of both of my feet, like that'll bother me oftentimes. Yeah. Unless it's impossible to keep track, you know. So Olivia: Did you did you get double vaxxed or? Andrew: Get them get them give me them tism. Yeah. What was it, the Tylenol? My mom Andrea: I don't think you need to go pay for the diagnosis. Andrew: was just guzzling Tylenol when she's preckers with me. Is that what it is? Olivia: Yeah, I think Andrea: Can I Olivia: yeah, they Andrea: just give you the diagnosis now and just say, like, you don't need to go pay the money? Here you go. I'll Olivia: Yeah, I wish. Andrea: just give you the slip. Andrew: Free psychiatry. Anyway, don't need your free shit. Get the fuck out of here. I don't need your charity. but yeah. And to me like I w I don't know. Like that doesn't feel Olivia: Yeah. I mean it Andrew: that doesn't feel weird to me because that's just how it's always been. I don't Andrea: Right. Olivia: Right. Andrew: always feel that way, but there's certain like especially like if it's actually Andrea: Mm-hmm. Andrew: not like so fine so that's what I can actually keep track of like where shadows are falling if it's not like tree like light going through like leaves. It's just like too finite. Like I'm my brain can't my brain won't intrinsically be able to keep track of it so it won't bother me. But times when I can it's often it's not all the time, but it does ha it happens very regularly where like it'll bother me. And if I don't, like I cannot escape that thought. It'll keep count counting and I can't make it stop. Olivia: Wow. Andrew: So I have to just keep it even so I can have other thoughts. Andrea: Ha ha ha ha. Olivia: I mean that's like I think that's the I think that's why so many people end up being late diagnosed, neurodivergent, right? Is because their experience is their normal. They have no point Andrew: Mm-hmm. Olivia: of comparison and they just like think that they're stupid or lazy or whatever, Andrew: So Olivia: whatever it is. And so it isn't usually until other people are like, yo, like s you're the way you operate's like different than Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: me or other people or whatever. Or they're around other people that are neurodivergent. They're like, Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: I get it. Andrew: Yeah, I I never I never really thought about it. Olivia: Yeah. Mm. Andrew: To be fair, I do think it would have been in some ways harder to notice, just because like earlier childhood was like self-loathing, like hated myself because I was gay and like other shit going on in my life. So I was just like messy depressy, right? Like that probably wasn't the most notable sort of thing about me. Like the most notable thing is probably like the suicidal ideation. You know what I mean? Like there's other things going on. Like that I Yeah. Olivia: I mean like clinically speaking, okay, fine. Andrew: So like I wouldn't I'm not I'm like begrudging people not noticing that, and it's only when I started like not hating myself. that I was like, why am I still struggling at all this stuff? Like I used to like hit really depressive episodes where I like just like I couldn't. I'd just like fall apart. But then I re eventually realized that wasn't all just like being depressed, right? It was also like I just like paral like paralyzed, yeah. I just like Olivia: Don't have the motivation. Yeah. Andrew: and even if Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: like I also like learning that like for most people it's like when you make the decision to do something you can do it. Like for me I always interpret it as like, I'm not doing the thing, I didn't actually make the decision. I like am morally weak. Like even if I'm planning like mentally trying to make myself do the thing, it's like, No, you're lazy, you're weak, you don't actually care enough or like that as much as you think and I'm like, character flog Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Ugh. Hm. What were you gonna say, Andre? Andrea: I don't remember. Andrew: Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. I'm sorry if I interrupt. Yeah. Andrea: No, I was I I don't even know was I gonna say something? Olivia: you I think well I thought I don't know. I also don't know. Who knows? Andrea: Could have been I could have. I dunno. Andrew: Mm. Andrea: Who knows? I'm out of fresca, so I'm distracted. Olivia: Yeah, why did you take it out of the can? I wanted to match with you. Andrea: I was feeling I was feeling fancy today. I was like, I wanna put it in a nice cup. And then Andrew: Compared to me, you're always like uppercrossed. Like I am so horrifically ratchet and like Yeah I'm just like struggling. Like I can't Olivia: Upper crust? Wow. Andrew: even get a car that doesn't have a no check engine light on it. Like I just got a car and within like five hours of having it, the check engine light turned on, got it, got it repaired, and then within another like four hours it happened again. For the context, so I'm like, killer! Andrea: I've been there. I've been in that state. I have an autistic husband, so Andrew: You got money to spare because I'm about to be in a debtor's prison. Jake, it's not legal anymore. But Olivia: JK's not legal anymore. a win for justice. Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: Well, thanks for humoring us and our like questions and talking about your experience. It's it's interesting. I especially the accommodation piece, I think that's really been on my mind and I'd be really curious, like There's anyone that's listening and that's had accommodations that's been helpful, I'd be really curious to know like what has been helpful for you 'cause I feel like as things change and we learn more about neurodivergence and what's actually helpful and we can actually have diversity and promote that. Not just neurodiversity, but like all diversity. that we have more accommodations to pull on and like ways to support people because Like you should be like you should be able to pursue higher education, you know? What's up? Andrew: Maybe maybe that choice should be taken from me. I don't know if it's good in my case. But I was also gonna say I feel like people also very much so view accommodations like if you have any at all you should be performing in the exact same way, exact same level. That's not true. That's also like a perspective I've Andrea: Yeah. Andrew: encountered that I hate. I'm so sorry. I just thought of it now. Andrea: No, that's a good one. Mm-hmm. Olivia: that makes sense. Yeah. Andrew: I didn't just stop being disabled queen, 'cause you gave me forty more minutes on this exam. Like, I'd give up the forty minutes to not have these problems like any day. Like Andrea: Right. Doesn't fix anything. Yeah. Olivia: Right. Andrew: so Olivia: That's so interesting. Yeah. Again, I just find it so fascinating because like I was so late diagnosed I didn't have that option. And so I just think about that a lot of like what would have been helpful for me. And then I like think about my daughter who's like very clearly ADHD and will like get diagnosed pretty early on and like what accommodations would be helpful for her, Andrew: Yeah, she's she really nailed that one. Andrea: Little bit. Olivia: you know. So yeah, I don't know. It's on my mind. All to say. Andrew: Yeah. Olivia: So thanks for humoring us and all of our questions and hopefully we didn't Andrew: Yeah, of course. Olivia: scar you too much. Andrew: I hope you I actually answered your question sufficiently and didn't just like go off on a complete tangent too much so that you didn't get to ask all of them. Olivia: No, it's Andrea: Have you listened to our podcast? Olivia: all right. You c Yeah. Andrew: Briefly, very briefly. My favorite is Olivia: It's all over the place. Andrew: the glory glory hole, like clip. Like I was like it's like my people, yes, they're talking about Andrea: That got like ten thousand views or twenty thousand views. Andrew: it. It was a coffee glory hole, a donut glory hole? Coffee. Olivia: my gosh. yeah, it was a coffee glory hole. Andrea: Yeah, it was. It was a coffee coffee glory hole. Olivia: Yeah. I actually in the last episode we recorded last week, I like made a joke that I'm pretty sure we have to bleep out. Andrea: It did, I blanked it out. Olivia: I know, I'm so bummed. It's okay, I'll tell you after we record, Andrew. But yeah, I like made a joke and I like, that would be really good on social media, but pretty sure we're gonna have to bleep that one. Andrew: Yeah. Andrea: I had to go like delete the caption chunk. Like it had to be like Olivia: Wow, I feel very censored. That's okay. That's all right. Andrea: It did spell it right. It heard the word. So Olivia: Pronunciation, not that yeah, that's not a problem for me. well anyways, thank you all for joining in. do all the things. like, comment, subscribe, all all that fun stuff, and we'll catch you in the next episode. Bye. Andrea: the buttons. Bye. Andrew: I won't be there. I won't catch you. Goodbye. Olivia: Bye. This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org.