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Its Difficult To Make Superman Interesting Dark Country From Adam Plantinga · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: Hey, there's a podcast network I would love for you
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: to check out, arrow.net, A-R-R-O-E.net. Not just a podcast, but
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: it's 21 different choices. One of the most popular ones
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  Speaker 1: is The Daily Mess, putting ourselves right here in this
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: present place of right now. Now the question is, how
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: do you stay and how do you grow beyond this
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  Speaker 1: moment of now without looking over your shoulder? Pretty heavy stuff, right? Oh,
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  Speaker 1: when you're driving in the car, it'll sink right in
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  Speaker 1: and put you in the right place at the right time.
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  Speaker 1: the daily mess on arrow.net, A-R-R-O-E.net. Enjoy your exploration. Talk
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  Speaker 1: to me about dark country because there is so much
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  Speaker 1: going on inside here. And maybe it's because I'm a
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  Speaker 1: writer and an author that I sit there and I
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  Speaker 1: have a lot of compassion for the one that's receiving it.
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  Speaker 1: And now you've got to relinquish it to we who
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  Speaker 1: are the reader.
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  Speaker 2: Well, uh, Dark Country is the third book in the
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  Speaker 2: Kurt Argento series. And in it, he is sort of
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  Speaker 2: laying low in a small town in South Dakota because
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  Speaker 2: there's some folks after him. And he ends up meeting
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  Speaker 2: a 17-year-old kid named Majed, who is a Syrian refugee.
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  Speaker 3: And there's some heavy hitters after Majed, too.
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  Speaker 2: Which they can't quite understand because he's just a teenager
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  Speaker 2: who doesn't hurt anybody. But the thrust of the book
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  Speaker 2: is Sargento has to protect this kid, find out who's
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  Speaker 2: after him and try to get him to safety.
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  Speaker 1: And see, the thing is, is that that's what makes
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  Speaker 1: it so real to me, because I do work with
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  Speaker 1: a lot of the younger generation. They're a lot smarter
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  Speaker 1: than what we think they are. And there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: of plotting that's going on. We just don't know what
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  Speaker 1: they're doing or, you know, being here in Carolina. I
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  Speaker 1: know they're not up there in South Carolina, in South Dakota.
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  Speaker 1: But the thing is, though, they're still out here hiding
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  Speaker 1: in plain sight.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Majed is a kid, you know, he's 17,
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  Speaker 2: but he's resourceful. He's got some inner reserves. And as
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  Speaker 2: the book progresses, he more than holds his own.
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  Speaker 1: For you to do the research on this, because you
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  Speaker 1: know how continuity is. I mean, there's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: trolls out here that'll call you out in a heartbeat.
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  Speaker 1: I can't imagine the research that you put into a
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  Speaker 1: project like this.
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  Speaker 3: Well, in the book, there's a road trip.
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  Speaker 2: Argento and Majed travel from the Sioux Falls, South Dakota
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  Speaker 2: area to Oakland, California, because there's a relative there that
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  Speaker 2: may be able to take Majed in. And actually, I
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  Speaker 2: flew to Sioux Falls, South Dakota, rented a car and
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  Speaker 2: drove three days to Oakland, you know, stayed in some
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  Speaker 2: of the same spots that Argento and Majed stay in,
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  Speaker 2: sort of Made a little mini diary of what I
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  Speaker 2: saw in the landscape.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it made me feel like a real author.
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  Speaker 1: I love the fact that you flew directly there because
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  Speaker 1: I did make a mistake in one of my books.
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  Speaker 1: It was my third one where I was talking about
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  Speaker 1: the painting on the wall and somebody called me out
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  Speaker 1: on it in a heartbeat. And they go, you should
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  Speaker 1: have been there. Don't just rely on pictures on the Internet.
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  Speaker 1: And so that really charges me up when I hear
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  Speaker 1: that you actually physically go to Sioux Falls.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I've heard other authors talk about how they're
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  Speaker 2: writing about an actual town in a book and they
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  Speaker 2: say the mailbox was on the northeast corner. And then
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  Speaker 2: a local will email and say, no, that's on the
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  Speaker 2: southwest corner.
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  Speaker 3: What are we doing here? There's some Hawkeye readers out there.
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  Speaker 1: In the way of building the story, how were you
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  Speaker 1: able to glue them together? Because you've got two completely
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  Speaker 1: different age groups, and it's like you had to have
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  Speaker 1: done some research on the younger people. Either that, or
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  Speaker 1: you've got a grandchild or somebody that's given you that insight.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I am the father to two teenagers, so I
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  Speaker 2: do have some insights into how they sort of operate
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  Speaker 2: and talk. But yeah, I mean, in this book, Argento,
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  Speaker 2: at the beginning, just sort of sees Magetta's sort of
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  Speaker 2: a package he needs to deliver safely. But that's about it.
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  Speaker 2: But as the book progresses, they develop a real personal
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  Speaker 2: bond and sort of get to understand each other. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that's hopefully kind of the beating heart in
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  Speaker 2: the middle of all of it.
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  Speaker 1: So now this is my wife's question, and this is
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  Speaker 1: just what wives do. She sits there and says, I
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  Speaker 1: love his name, but how is he making sure that
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  Speaker 1: people remember it? Because she says, it's very memorable. And
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  Speaker 1: of course, as the writer, I'm going, how many times
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  Speaker 1: did it tumble over and over in your heart going, yep,
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  Speaker 1: that's the one I want. Ooh, maybe not. Okay, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's the name I want.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, the name Kurt Argento?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So I just borrowed the first name Kurt from a
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  Speaker 2: cop I used to work with in Milwaukee, who was
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  Speaker 2: just a tough piece of meat guy. And then Argento
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  Speaker 2: actually is a tip of the hat to the movie
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  Speaker 2: Gladiator because in Gladiator, Russell Crowe as Maximus names his
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  Speaker 2: two horses in one scene. And one of the horses
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  Speaker 2: names is Argento. And I just like the sound of it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, so do I, because I'm a radio guy and,
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  Speaker 1: and that's one of the things that we put a
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  Speaker 1: lot of focus on our names. And so when I,
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  Speaker 1: when I see Kurt's name, I'm going, you know, that
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  Speaker 1: would be a good name because it's got the K
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  Speaker 1: the solid K. And it usually with a K people
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  Speaker 1: will remember that as they're reading the book. And all
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  Speaker 1: of a sudden it's no longer about, well, I'm reading
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  Speaker 1: this book. It's about a couple of guys. No, they
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  Speaker 1: start naming your characters verbally and you're going, I love
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  Speaker 1: this author.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there's definitely a process and some care and
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  Speaker 2: selecting that name.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, You know, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: You're probably not going to have a protagonist whose name
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  Speaker 2: is Ned Smedley.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, no.
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  Speaker 2: Offense to any of the Ned Smedleys out there, but
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  Speaker 2: it just doesn't sort of ring like a hero.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the things, and this is my wife
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  Speaker 1: bringing this up, is that you have no problem bringing
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  Speaker 1: in crimes against children because, I mean, here in the Carolinas,
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of it. And it's almost like that
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  Speaker 1: you were looking through our newspaper. I'm sure other people
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  Speaker 1: around the country are going to say the same exact thing.
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  Speaker 1: For you to be so visible on that page with
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  Speaker 1: where we're going through in life, this is what draws
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  Speaker 1: me to your stories.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that, I mean, the books
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  Speaker 2: I write can run a little dark and they're not
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  Speaker 2: for everybody. But if there is darkness, if there is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I want there to be sort of high
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  Speaker 2: stakes and You know, sort of the most vulnerable people
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  Speaker 2: make for.
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  Speaker 3: The highest stakes.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, I guess when I write, I want to
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  Speaker 2: try to take some chances. I don't want to write
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  Speaker 2: sort of a safe, predictable book. So that's I think
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  Speaker 2: that's a part of that.
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  Speaker 1: Did you go into it with the idea of doing
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  Speaker 1: a series? Because I mean, to me, that's like, that's
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  Speaker 1: like doing a podcast and you're going, okay, this is
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  Speaker 1: season one, this is season two. And it's like, where
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  Speaker 1: is the division line? And, and does, does that serve
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  Speaker 1: as a writer as a boundary of saying, I can't
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  Speaker 1: cross that until I get to that book. So I've
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  Speaker 1: got to focus only on this.
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  Speaker 2: You know, as I'm sure, you know, publishing is a,
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  Speaker 2: Is it tough? I was so sort of surprised and
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  Speaker 2: delighted to get that first book contract. You know, I
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  Speaker 2: thought it was a little maybe presumptuous to think, OK,
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  Speaker 2: now I'm going to.
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  Speaker 3: Write 17 of these.
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  Speaker 2: But when my publisher asked for more books, I thought,
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  Speaker 2: you know what? I've got some more ideas for this guy.
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  Speaker 2: He's a character I'm quite fond of. So I've been
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  Speaker 2: in sort of a writing flow lately and hoping to
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  Speaker 2: kind of ride that wave.
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  Speaker 1: So when you're walking around town, does Kurt live with you? Because,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, as it is, I mean, Arrow is a
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  Speaker 1: radio name. But when I'm walking through Charlotte, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it's one of those things where, you know, it's unless
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  Speaker 1: you call out my name, I'm that other guy. So
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  Speaker 1: what is Kurt like to you when you're walking the
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  Speaker 1: everyday world?
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  Speaker 2: So I just wanted to say Arrow Collins, fantastic name,
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  Speaker 2: if anybody. If I put you in a book, you'd
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  Speaker 2: be like the tough but fair SWAT commander that they
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  Speaker 2: call when they're in a real situation. They say, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: somebody call Errol Collins. He'll know what to do.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, my first wife wanted to make him a
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  Speaker 1: nightclub owner. And I said, all right, go for it.
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  Speaker 1: And then I was the one that stole it from
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  Speaker 1: her to put it on the radio because I thought
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  Speaker 1: it was such an interesting name. But radio did not
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  Speaker 1: like it because they said that you can't win a
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  Speaker 1: ratings war with a name like Errol because people don't
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  Speaker 1: know what the word Errol is.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. I think you did the right thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say Kurt kind of lives sort of inside me.
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  Speaker 2: You know, obviously we're not the same, but there are
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  Speaker 2: some similarities. We're both sort of cops and I think
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  Speaker 2: have a pretty defined sense of right and wrong. And
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  Speaker 2: I often find myself in situations where I think, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, what would Kurt do in this situation? And
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  Speaker 2: a lot of times that is, you know, punch the
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  Speaker 2: closest guy in the face as hard as he can,
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  Speaker 2: which I, you know, I often opt for sort of
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  Speaker 2: discretion and de-escalation. But yeah, he's on my mind quite
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  Speaker 2: a bit.
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  Speaker 1: That is so funny you say that because even as
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  Speaker 1: a third degree black belt, when I come to writing
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  Speaker 1: about different fight scenes or difficult situations, I have to
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  Speaker 1: put my martial artist aside because the average reader does
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  Speaker 1: not know that you're supposed to really walk away from
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  Speaker 1: a situation like that. And, you know, they're looking for
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  Speaker 1: the grunge and the battle and the blood. And and
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  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, my God, how am I going to
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  Speaker 1: put myself through this if I would never do it?
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  Speaker 1: So how do you do it then?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Kurt's he's a fighter. I mean, he's he's
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  Speaker 3: good at it. He's a brawler. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But, you know, I still want to have sort of
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  Speaker 2: a realistic skin over the book.
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  Speaker 3: So.
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  Speaker 2: You know, he's not the kind of guy that'll walk
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  Speaker 2: into a bar and beat up four guys and not
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  Speaker 2: get a scratch on him. No, he's a guy that'll
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  Speaker 2: walk into a bar and maybe fight two guys, but,
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  Speaker 2: you know, get hit in the head with a chair
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  Speaker 2: and get a concussion and maybe lose a tooth and
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  Speaker 2: then still prevail. You know, so, you know, he's not Superman.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's sort of hard to make Superman interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Please don't move. We'll be right back with Adam Plantica
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  Speaker 1: coming up next. The name of his brand new book,
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  Speaker 1: Dark Country. We are back with Adam Plantiga. When you
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: write a book like Dark Country, we are the generation
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  Speaker 1: right now that loves our true crime. And there are
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of armchair quarterback investigators out there. And it's
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  Speaker 1: one of those I'm going to do. They write to
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  Speaker 1: you and say, I've got this figured out before I
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  Speaker 1: get to the final page.
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  Speaker 2: You know i uh i haven't gotten that so much
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  Speaker 2: but i do have folks who again sort of the
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: folks with the hawk eyes who will uh pick out
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  Speaker 2: a uh you know, a discrepancy or, you know, something
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  Speaker 2: I got a little wrong. And, you know, I appreciate
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  Speaker 2: those folks because I want to kind of turn out
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  Speaker 2: the best book I can. But, you know, I'm a
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  Speaker 2: 25 year cop. I have the advantage of knowing the
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  Speaker 2: job pretty well. And if there's things I don't know
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  Speaker 2: a lot about, I can know, for instance, in my
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: second book, Hardtown, I needed information on.
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  Speaker 3: A police sniper.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm not a sniper, but the guy at the
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  Speaker 2: desk just to my right was a So I didn't
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: have to move. I just turned my head and said, hey, Tim,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: what do you got about police snipers? And he told me,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it's sort of a perk of the profession.
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  Speaker 1: Well, see, I love that kind of stuff because that's
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: involving everybody around it. So that when you know when
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  Speaker 1: you're because I mean, the craziest places that I write,
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  Speaker 1: it's usually in the center of a bunch of people.
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  Speaker 1: And if I can get them involved and I can
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  Speaker 1: get their personality, then all of a sudden now it
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  Speaker 1: becomes a writing project.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it sort of takes a
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  Speaker 3: village approach.
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  Speaker 2: And in my books, I've reached out to subject matter
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  Speaker 2: experts and everything from medical examiners to desert survival experts
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: to botanists. I mean, sometimes I call these folks and
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  Speaker 2: they're super generous with their time. I think people just
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  Speaker 2: like to talk about stuff they know a lot about
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  Speaker 2: and sort of share what they have.
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  Speaker 3: I think they get a kick out of it.
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  Speaker 1: See, and I love this conversation because we're in this
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  Speaker 1: AI generation where people are just putting thoughts into a
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: chat GPT and they're saying, write me a book. So
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  Speaker 1: the fact that you're sharing this with us, I just
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  Speaker 1: want those writers at home to go, look, do it yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Don't rely on AI. Do it. Do it like Adam does.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there just needs to be
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  Speaker 2: a clear line of demarcation between actual creativity.
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  Speaker 3: And then AI.
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  Speaker 2: I don't... you know, I think at some very basic level,
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  Speaker 2: it's just flat out cheating.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do in those situations though? When, when
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  Speaker 1: writing feels like that you're doing just another police report,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: because there are many times that I get too technical
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  Speaker 1: and the, and the editor goes to inside buddy to inside.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's a great point. I think I've done
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  Speaker 3: that before.
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  Speaker 2: I've gotten a little bogged down in the details and
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: kind of like you, I have an agent and an
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  Speaker 2: editor that read my stuff and, They're really good about saying, okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is interesting, but you're writing a thriller.
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  Speaker 3: It's got to be lean. It's got to move.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Let's skim this down a little bit. And more often
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: than not, they're exactly right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad is the one that told me that
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: he always places the blame on you when my mom says,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: did you not sleep last night, honey? I was reading
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  Speaker 1: Adam last night. That's a God's honest true story. I
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: heard him say that to her, and I looked at him,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: and I went, oh, my God, to be that author. Oh,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: my God.
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  Speaker 3: Well, that's high praise. I appreciate that.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: It's just the way that you're bringing things together. It's
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: not that you want us to escape the world. We
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: choose to do that. But you're doing it with stories
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  Speaker 1: that it feels like that we're a part of it.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And that goes back to you writing about things that
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: are going on in the real world.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, you know, I think if you
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: want to try to write in a halfway decent fashion,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you have to read a lot. And there's just so
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: many first rate authors out there that are basically you
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: read their stuff and it's like you're taking.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: A tutorial on great crime writing.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: You know, Dennis Lehane and George Pelicanos and Robert Grace.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, you read those books and you realize, you know,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: they write passages that stick with you long after.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: You've closed the book. And, you know, that's what I
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: strive for.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, because that to me is, you know, they always
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: used to say water cooler conversation. No, I think it's
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: grocery store conversation because I hear it all the time.
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  Speaker 1: What are you reading there, Billy? I'm reading Dark Country.
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  Speaker 3: Really?
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  Speaker 1: Why don't you go ahead and tell me what that's about?
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  Speaker 1: And to me, it's a conversation starter. People are looking
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: for those conversation starting moments. And a book like yours
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  Speaker 1: is it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you saying that. You know, people are
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: talking about my book in the grocery store amidst the.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: the apples and the mangoes. I'm in.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's about community anymore. In fact, because I do
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: work at a grocery store because I just love people
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  Speaker 1: so much. And that's the God's honest truth. And the
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: thing is, is that it reminds me so much of
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Sam Drucker's on Petticoat Junction, that people are coming there
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  Speaker 1: to be with people. It's a safe place for community
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  Speaker 1: and the conversations they get into. Oh my God, Adam.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, just going back to what
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: we talked about, about AI and, I mean, I think
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: part of that conversation is maybe people feel a personal
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: connection with the author, which you're never going to get
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: with AI. I mean, if essentially a robot is writing
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: the book, then where's that connection?
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's there.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about you?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Because 10 minutes with you is never going to be enough.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I want them to really get to know the author
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: because I think we're at that point in history where
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: it's a connection. It is a relationship.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a website, myname.com, and folks can reach
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: out to me. There's sort of like a message portal there,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and I really appreciate it whenever someone does.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I always write back.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I'm on the old Twitter, which I get a kick
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: out of. That's probably my main jam. I am on Instagram,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: but my teenage daughter's claim, I don't know how to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: use it, and I'm not using it right, and Maybe
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: they think I should get off it. So, you know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: buyer beware there. But there's a couple of ways to
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: reach me.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I love that when people will talk about Twitter like
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: that and I'll go, yeah, but do you remember Twitter
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: when we could only do so many characters and we
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: would struggle to edit it? It's like, oh, my God,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: they're missing the message. And then finally Twitter opened up.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But back in those days, you really had to
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: keep it first.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Yeah, tell that to an author. You know,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you have to keep it in short words like that.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: It's not going to happen.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Actually, at some level, it's kind of a good writing
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: exercise just to compact it all.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Well, please come back to this show anytime in the future.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: The door is always going to be open for you, Adam.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Good, sir.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today, OK?
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Thanks. I enjoyed our time.