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Rupal Patel: Boldly Leading with Who You Truly Are · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today we have Rupal Patel.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Rupal is a former CIA officer and award-winning entrepreneur.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: She's an international speaker, executive advisor and author of From CIA to CEO.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Named a success magazine changemaker, her work has influenced Fortune 500 companies and top MBA programs.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: She inspires impactful leadership through her book, through her talks, her TED Talk and her pro bono work.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge, Rupal.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, Leigh, so I'm excited to jump into your definition of bold.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: So, being in the CIA, I can only imagine the things that you have seen done, and even as a CEO, I can only imagine the things that you've seen and done.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: What is your definition of bold it?
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: is being who you are, no matter the context, and using that very unique combination of who you are in ways that might be surprising.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, so, being you, no matter what it sounds like, and being able to be who you are in a context of whether someone understands it or not, you're going to be you anyway.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the way you reflected that back because, yeah, there is.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: There are so much sort of nuance to it, but you've nailed the essentials.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: All right, cause I'll help me guide us through as as we move through the conversation.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: When you think about your life and there's so many moments of boldness, and even the subtitle of your book is Lessons for Thinking Bigger, leading Better and being Bolder what's a moment in your life that you remember living aligned to that definition?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Do you know?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: I think it was.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: There are sort of multiple small things, but I think that the biggest time that showed up for me was when I decided that it was okay for me to write a book.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, up until that point, I've always been a reader and I've always been a writer.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: So reading and books and words have always played such a big role in my life and in my career.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And because I had always put books and authors on such a pedestal, it felt like that.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: So much of the conversation in my own mind around deciding that I was going to write and publish my own book was you know, why me?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Some of that same stuff that comes up in different contexts for different people, but like, why me?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Why would anyone hear what I have to say?
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Is my experience, you know, interesting or unique enough?
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Are these insights useful and valuable, et cetera.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And really stepping into that actually, yes, it is right, I am not trying to be like the definitive voice about anything, I'm just contributing to a bigger conversation.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: And for me that felt really, really bold because it, like I said, I had put sort of authors and books on such a high pedestal that to allow myself the permission to elevate myself and say, yep, I am ready, I have something to say, felt really bold for me.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and how long did you want to write a book?
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Or did you know you always wanted to?
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ever since I was tiny, I remember something like just sort of so dweebly.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: This will definitely date me, but I remember when I was like six or seven I loved watching the Jetsons and so you know the plucky little child that I was I wrote up a whole episode.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Know the plucky little child that I was.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I wrote up a whole episode like storyline and sent it into what I thought was like the Jetsons who knows where it actually ended up getting sent.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: But I've always written.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I've always loved writing.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I've always loved thinking about words and how to use them and what things mean.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, from the youngest of ages I've wanted to be an author.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, lovely.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I remember, like someone told me, that a lot of introverts use the written language as a way to communicate better.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: And I'm an introvert and I've never had any issues stating my mind or purpose or anything like that, so I think there's definitely a continuum of that.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: But I think using the way that we write and using our words, I think, is definitely a gift.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited and I'm thankful that you did write the book that you have written.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: What made you want to be in the CIA?
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: So you are the first person in the CIA I've ever had on the podcast.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: So is that something you wanted to do your entire life, in high school, in the college, or how did you get there?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: What's the trajectory of a CIA agent in your experience?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I didn't.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Actually the CIA came to me and the trajectory that I was on at the time was I was always the one person.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: So I come from a family of four and I was always the one of my siblings who didn't really have very clear vision as to where I wanted to go.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: My sister knew she wanted to be a lawyer, my brother knew she wanted to be a lawyer, my brother knew he wanted to be a surgeon.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: My other brother knew that he wanted to go into finance.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I was always like the outlier in that way, and throughout my time as an undergrad I was loving and totally overwhelmed by all of the choices because I was interested in so many things.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: I've always been a very curious person, and so I ended up focusing on as an undergrad on political science, because it was an intersection of so many things that I cared about, and I was interested in languages, travel, you know, human interaction, all of this kind of stuff.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: So from that pathway I just assumed that I would either go into law or go into foreign service, and so my plan was to join the State Department, take a foreign service exam, etc.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And so my plan was to join the State Department, take a foreign service exam, etc.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: And then, when I was a master's student in studying international affairs, the CIA came to me and they recruited me, and so they were not on my radar in any way.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't think that someone like me would even have a place at the CIA, because at that point in my life I just assumed that everything that I saw on TV and in the movies was what you know the CIA is and that's what we know, right, that's the whole point, right.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Exactly so.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they came to me.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: It was not part of the plan.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: So would you consider yourself brave and bold, like, had you always thought of yourself in that way?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Because that's something that I think is.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: As I have created my business and done the things that I've done over the last five years, I never called myself bold.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't walk in a room and go.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be bold.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Today, I think the only thing I said to my team at Duke and at and at Dartmouth, I would say you know, we're going to take a big swing of bold, right, you know?
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: So I was like and that meant to me and my team that we know what we're doing, we know what could happen and we're going to learn and we're doing it anyway.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Nothing's guaranteed.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: There may be a risk, but this is what we need to do, and so I've always had that type of mindset about what we do growth mindset and learning.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: But have you always considered yourself bold?
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Never, I don't even know if I consider myself bold.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Now I would say you're bold, well, and it's funny, right, because some of us, we like put weight on certain words and then don't really think about others.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for me bold always seems so brave, as you put it, and so confident and like out there in the world right.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: And I, for much of my life, was much sort of like you alluded to, much more introverted, much more reflective, didn't want to be, you know, noticed or paid attention to and out there in that way.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: And so I think for me the boldness was perhaps a quieter form of boldness, in that I know now that some of the things that I've done in my life and my career are what others would consider bold.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: But, like you, I never was telling myself, oh, I'm doing something really bold now.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It just felt exciting, it felt new, it felt challenging, it felt stretching in a way that was meaningful to me.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I didn't really feel bold.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: But what I realized also and the CIA really helps with this is that I think sometimes the way we talk about boldness has given too much prime time to the stuff that's in your face.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: It can definitely have a bad rap right.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or that it's just a bit more obvious, and so I think for me it's always been a little bit of a walking.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: That line between, like how I define bold for myself, has always been a little bit quieter, I guess.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely personal, and in my book I talk about the continuum of boldness, meaning that there are the quiet moments of boldness, which that's pretty much where I've lived most of my life.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it's your mindset, it's you, maybe even speaking up for someone that doesn't have a voice, or you know the things that we do to really move the needle for our own goals.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: It's usually in the quieter space, the loud space, like when I quit my job without a plan but knew I knew I had to choose myself.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: That's a loud moment and I think what I want you know as many as possible to understand is like it is.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: It is personal, it's up to you, and I think it does happen more often in the quieter to mid quiet moments than these louder moments.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Now, those are the ones you hear about or you see, but boldness is happening under the surface a lot of the time, even like if someone has a goal and they hadn't exercised in a long time and today I'm going to walk around the block 10 times.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: That's bold, right.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: You're taking action, you're meeting yourself, you know where you are.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: You might not want to do it, all those things that you know that can really create, you know discomfort even so, definitely agree with you there.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: So when the CIA came to you and said, hey, we'd love to have you walk us through the process of that, because that in itself, I think, could probably make some people nervous or uncomfortable even in that process, of like moving into, I'm going to be a CIA agent.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I was so caught by surprise and it's hard now to sort of honestly put myself back in that moment.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Because guess I was so caught by surprise and it's hard now to sort of honestly put myself back in that moment because actually I was recruited over 20 years ago.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: But I think if I can sort of make certain assumptions, like I think I was just so surprised that I didn't overthink it and what helped was the follow on to hey, would you be interested in working at the CIA?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Was if so, let's make time to have a longer conversation.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: And so the gentleman who I was talking to then, you know, when we had that longer conversation and he talked me through, okay, well, we'd be interested in hiring you as an analyst, and this is what it entails and this is what the role is and this is how it plays into the bigger picture.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: It just gave me more information to base my decision on and I had already kind of been so intrigued that I was like, unless this is something totally like off the wall, that I cannot see any future for myself, and like I'm kind of minded to just say, yes, you know and I think that that's actually generally my approach to most things in life is, unless there's a really strong compelling reason to say no, I'm kind of up for a lot of things, you know.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Like, I think that's part of the fun of life is that you never know where those yeses will take you, and sometimes to just ride that wave for however long it lasts, it could be, just you know, maybe it will lead to something long and meaningful, like a career, or it just leads to certain moments of reflection or growth or challenge or whatever.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: But, like, I'm generally the type of person who says yes and then figures out how to make it happen.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're up for an adventure.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Do you think your boldness and thinking bigger and being a leader really came from how you were raised, or do you think it's a combination of that plus your experiences?
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Or was there any like one moment or moments that come to mind of like I know, I want to do?
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: I don't mean specifically be a CIA leader, but a leader I want to lead, I want to, you know, want to be out there.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Was there anything that came up for you as you were growing up?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: No, to be honest, I don't think there was any one moment or a culmination of moments.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I think what it was was what I alluded to earlier, which was just that curiosity around what's out there in the world and then also, more fundamentally, curiosity about myself, about what I'm capable of, what my boundaries and limits are, what I can do, what I can't do, and some of that just being willing to again give everything a try and give it a go.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: But I never set out to work at the CIA.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: And then it wasn't this big plan of like, ok, I'm going to work at the CIA and then I'm going to start my own business, and then I'm going to build teams and create organizations and all this.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: It was just what's the interesting opportunity in front of me?
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: How can I make the most of it?
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Like, how am I stretching?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: How am I growing?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Is it something that I can add value to or learn, et cetera?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: And so just being a bit more curious about, like I said, both the specifics of the situation but also me and how I could or couldn't show up in those contexts.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of the things you said like, obviously, curiosity, spontaneity, I think, saying yes when you know the details, but you know nothing's certain, nothing's a slam dunk, that's just kind of how life is.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I think those are all bold moments in themselves.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: You just said something that's very important because I think it's what life's all about, which is about thinking, being present and really understanding and thinking about the now, meaning experiencing, learning, being curious about understanding who you are right, and I'm still at 53, still figuring this out.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: That's the fun of it, and I think it's also the challenge of it.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: It's all wrapped up in one and it's not always easy.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So I love that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: You've set the example not only of being in the CIA, but you're a two-time CEO.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: You've set the example not only of being in the CIA, but you're a two-time CEO.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: So when you think, if you know and this is something as we step into your book, which is really about an unconventional life full of lots of lessons what do you think are the things that would be analogous between being a CEO and being a CIA?
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind like meaning there's always a challenge, or there's always figure out?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Or, in your experience.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind, like meaning there's always a challenge or there's always a figure out, or, in your experience, what would you say?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the answer to that question is For sure there are lots of parallels, and I think, particular parallels, because I've also started those businesses that I've led, and so it's you know, I think some of the nuance is a little bit different if you are a senior leader in an organization where there is still a bit of an infrastructure, and it's not the stakes not always, but the stakes are just different, right.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: And so I think for me the transferable reality is one is living in uncertainty, right, and you said it a few minutes ago about like nothing is guaranteed.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: It's not a slam dunk, you know, you just don't know.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: You have to be present and that sense of like you can work your hardest, you can plan and execute to the utmost of your ability, and still the result will be other than what you might have wanted, or it might be the total opposite of what you wanted.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: If it goes, you know, really differently.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: And so I think that willingness to embrace ambiguity, uncertainty, and be okay with it and I think that is probably the biggest lesson actually is not just embracing it and throwing up your hands and being like, okay, well, whatever happens I'll deal with it.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: But it's more and this also comes from the CIA is controlling the controllables.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: So there's so much that we can't control, whether it's how our team shows up or what's happening in the markets, or regulatory changes or economic shocks or pandemics or whatever it is.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And so, instead of getting overly obsessed with and stressed and overwhelmed by all of that, it's again controlling what you can, focusing on that much narrower and much more practical part of the things that you can push and pull and have some influence on.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: So I'd say that's probably the biggest one, and then related to it and this is true, I think, in life as it is in business but it's also just that sense of resilience that comes from acknowledging that it's not going to necessarily be easy.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: There isn't a step-by-step process that will take you through from beginning to success, and so you have to be creative, you have to be agile, and that creates a sense of resilience that, like I haven't faced this challenge before, but I know I can do it because I've seen myself through all of these other things in the past and that sort of that I refer to it as like a muscle, right.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: You develop the resilience muscle through stress and and trial and tribulation, and so I would say those are I mean, there are so many more, but I would say those are the two.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Biggest is the agility and the willingness to just focus on what you can do, and then resourcefulness and then and then.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that sort of bigger picture sense of like I'm just going to stick with it, like I know I'm not going to get defeated by the situation.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what was surprising for me.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago I spoke at my alma mater at Xavier and one of the things that came up was that some of the generations after me, they don't see tenacity and resilience as the same as I don't.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: I don't even know which generation I am, but it's an older one.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I've given up trying.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: So I think it was interesting.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Just, you know, I I think teaching tenacity or teaching resilience is hard.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: It can be taught, of course.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: But I think it was interesting just in thinking about that, where that just seems like a natural thing, like being bold might be just a natural thing for some.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: For others, you've got to step into it, you've got to practice it, you've got to try it out.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: You talk specifically in your book about identity driven leadership.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Can you walk us through what that means and how it differs from maybe how other people have defined what a leader is?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: So it gets back to that very first question.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You asked me about what does being bold mean?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And you know my response was being who you are and learning how to leverage that for the context that you're in.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: And that's fundamentally what this idea of identity driven leadership is about, for the context that you're in.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: And that's fundamentally what this idea of identity-driven leadership is about.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: It's not about sort of demographic identity being a woman or a person of color or of a certain generation or whatever but it's like you as an individual, understanding what are your very unique combinations of values, of expertise and capabilities, what are some of your blind spots, what are some of the things that you are just naturally good at, and then using that self-awareness and that self-analysis to then inform how you show up in different contexts.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: And so for me, for example, I'm not a very patient person, right, I know, and I've tried all of the things to develop more patience, et cetera, et cetera.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: But actually sometimes that impatience can be a really good thing because it pushes people along, it brings people.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: You know again, when I'm thinking about my teams now, it's not just hurry up and get things done for the sake of doing it, but it's a more refined impatience of like, okay, we could be moving faster, we could be doing this differently, we could be doing this better.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Let's make sure that we're constantly looking for ways to be a bit more yeah, to be a bit faster to where we want to go.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And then that opens up all kinds of conversations about well, could we change this process, or is this working less effectively?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, what can we do again that we can control to make us show up faster, better, more impactfully, etc.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: You know, I know, that that is something that I need to work on, maybe on an interpersonal level, right, so it has a positive manifestation, but it also can have a slightly more challenging manifestation, which is not being patient with people who can't go as fast as you are, who take a little bit, who learn differently or who respond differently, and so it's one understanding that this is just who.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I am, to some extent, not acknowledging it as it's.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Like you know, take it or leave it, but knowing that, well, here's how I can leverage the way it shows up positively and use it as a, as a superpower.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: But here's what I need to be aware of when I'm interacting with others and where it can be a bit of a blind spot, and just being fully aware of again what that complex makeup of who you are and your strengths, values is, and then using them intentionally in the context that you're in.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a certain point in your leadership journey and maybe it's something that's iterative as well, because it certainly may be, but you realize what you will work on or change or improve, and you realize, no, this is me and this is who I am, right.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: So I think that's just something.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I think that comes with experience and in, I think, the more that you're out there and learning, because I think if you're not learning as a leader, you shouldn't be leading.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: In that sense, and I also think, accepting who you are, like you said, you're not very patient that's not my middle name either, but I think, like you said, there's advantages to that and I understand what the disadvantages may be like in line at the grocery store.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, go to self checkout.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: So I think you know it goes also back to your definition and I would say it most likely aligns with your TEDx talk.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really does, because this and then actually that builds on to sort of the second part of your question, which is how it affects, like, what we've been taught about leadership, right, and what we've been taught about what it means to be bold or to be brave or to be all of these things, because there's so much baggage and there's so many weird or just very strong like images or archetypes that we are sold of what a leader looks like, of what an leader looks like, of what, you know, an entrepreneur looks like, of what a CEO looks like, etc.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Etc.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And so many people even now you know this is regardless of age feel that if they don't match that image or that, that stereotype of what a leader looks like and their personality traits you know, all these things that we've grown up in and around, whether it's through popular culture or movies or even just the leaders that get talked about in the news you know there's a certain paradigm.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: It's like you have to be aggressive, you have to be hyper alpha, you have to be like, you know, winner takes all.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And there's this again, these certain traits that seem to come up again and again and again, when the reality is that leadership is so much more broad than that and that is one way to lead, but that's not the only way to lead.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: So just because you are not aggressive or in your face or you know an extrovert doesn't mean you can't be a leader.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: It's well.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: How can you use who you are as the thing that fuels the way you are going to lead and show up in a different way to your team and to your colleagues?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things that I've experienced just in writing the book and you know, working with a lot of leaders is one of the primary things that holds them back from taking a bold step or thinking bigger is fear, and fear is something that can certainly keep you safe and keep you from harm, but it also can hold you back and it can keep you spinning in a cycle of overthinking or thinking and not acting.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: When you think about your experiences as a CEO, is there anything that you share with others so that they can take that next step or do that bigger, bolder thing that you've learned along your you know your journey as a leader?
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: What's something that if someone says, well, I just don't think I can do that, or I'm scared, or I'm scared, or I'm really, you know, not sure, is there something that you would say to someone who says you know that's just too scary 100%.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: And I think for me it's always about starting small.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: So I think again, the way we're wired or the way we're sold, so many things about what it means to be bold and transformation and being courageous, or whatever the word you want to use is like it's got to be this big 180 transformation and it's got to be overnight or it's got to be splashing in your face when actually it's okay to start small right, because then you can build a much more solid foundation on which to build from there.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: And so, for example, you know, I hear so many people say, oh, I'm just not a confident speaker, I can't do what you do a small town hall, you know, within your organization, and then you can build slowly from there.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: You can, because each small step teaches you what you respond well to, how you're going to respond to.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: You know the dynamics and the atmospherics in the room, et cetera, also what works, what doesn't work, all of these kinds of things.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And then you use that as the basis to then tweak and improve as you build and go from there.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: And so for me it's all about small experiments, small steps, small experiments, and I often use experimental and sort of scientific analogies here, because the whole point is you don't just do the experiment and then let it be.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It's well, okay, I delivered this little birthday speech.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Well, what's the data that came out of that experience, right?
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: What did I learn from that experience?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And then how can I leverage that learning into doing something a little bit bigger and then use that learning to do something a bit bigger and bigger?
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And that, for me, has been how I've done everything.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: It's been true, for you know, as I said earlier, I've never been a very public facing, you know, out there person, and now that is the bulk of my work is being out in the world in front of people, total strangers.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And it didn't happen overnight, right, I built that muscle, I strengthened it slowly over time through starting small and going from there.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: So I would say, whatever it is, if it's a new strategy that you want to roll out, or if it's a new market that you want to enter, or if it's, you know, a personal transformation that you want to make in some capacity, start small.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be big, because the smaller you start, the less likely you are that the mistakes are going to be catastrophic.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: You're likely to be able to get some useful information from it, and then you can tweak and iterate, as opposed to doing this whole big transformation and then realizing all the time effort, investment was for nothing.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, start small and experiment.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I think one of the myths of being bold is it always has to be big and loud and it doesn't have to be, and that's also where the continuum of boldness comes in too.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But I think there's also this I think people want to see something instantaneously as well.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: They want that instant, whether it's gratification or the instant result, and I believe success is incremental, and so it's those steps that we take every day, it's the habits, it's what we learn and how we apply it, and the PDSA cycle like on loop as we go through life and as leaders.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Do you see anything like when you think about being an entrepreneur, which is his own thing?
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: You know like, I'm five years in, I'm still learning.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Anything analogous between being in the CIA and being an entrepreneur that you can think of like?
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely matches up.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's dealing with sort of volatility all the time.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: It's constant problem solving right and having to come up with, you know, solutions and ways forward, even under imperfect circumstances, with you know again, ambiguous information, sometimes things going completely the wrong way to what you had planned for and executed for.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: So I think, again, it's that willingness and ability to adapt to whatever the situation throws at you is definitely sort of a big entrepreneurial skill.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: And then I guess the other thing and this is sort of tying into what we were just talking about, this idea of how long success takes, because so much of the CIA successes cannot be talked about right, they're secret by nature, they're not supposed to be shared publicly, and so that willingness to accept that success can be quiet and meaningful, even if it is monumental and big, like you don't have to be in people's faces about it, I think was a really useful mindset to come into entrepreneurship with.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Because, again, with entrepreneurship and leadership at any level, or even just like achievements at any level, this expectation is that you talk about it, you put it out there on social media and everybody gives you likes and shares it and it turns into this big thing.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: It can be, again, quieter than that, it can be more subtle than that and it can be just.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Only you know what those big successes are and of course obviously only you know those big failures as well.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: But it can be very intentional about what you do and don't share, and it doesn't have to be this big parade and song and dance, because sometimes the stuff that like is the biggest, most meaningful thing actually doesn't need the public sort of adoration and attention.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I, you know we've survived without social media before you know I'm old enough to know when it didn't exist, or so.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: One of the things you write about is like helping people focus on the right things, so in the sense of rather than everything, and you know there's so much to do and so many things that you could do at one time, which we know where that ends up.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: How do you help people focus, or what are some of the things that you see as areas of mistakes, or maybe things that you know come up a lot when it comes to prioritization or not focusing, you know, on the right things?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a real jumble of all of those things that you said, because there is this push socially, culturally, whatever, for like overnight results, for things to happen quickly or immediately or seemingly immediately, and also a real obsession with novelty for novelty's sake.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And what I do with my work with leaders and with exec teams is about the fundamentals.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: And that's not sexy stuff, right, it's like the fundamentals or health are.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: You know, eat real food, not processed stuff, and move as much as you possibly can to, you know, sort of keep that in check.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: It's not sexy, right.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: It's not like a new diet, it's not a new ice bath routine, it's just the fundamentals that have always existed about nutrition and movement.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm not even going to call it exercise, because it is just movement, and yet we all know the fundamentals.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: But we're always looking for but oh, I want that new hack and I'm going to buy this new pill or I'm going to buy this new gym equipment or whatever it is and I think that distraction and that desperation for newness, as if that's somehow going to make us show up more consistently, right, and so for me, it's about reminding the folks that I work with about what are the key, most high impact fundamentals that are repeatable and sustainable.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And I mean, if you were going to do this for the rest of your life, what is going to have the highest impact Because that's where some of the lack of results or the contradictions come in is, people are constantly moving from oh we tried this, let's try something else, let's try something else, let's try something else, whereas it's like, well, maybe it's just trying the same thing right and just doing it consistently, as opposed to flitting back and forth.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: So it's the discipline that that requires, it's the practice that it requires, which is again, behind so much of evolution and growth in every capacity, both personal and organizational, of evolution and growth in every capacity, both personal and organizational, and being willing for it to be boring.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And I think most people don't want boring.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: They want flashy and exciting and sexy and novel.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And so it's like, look, this is what works.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Right, these are the timeless things that have always been around for humanity, for leadership, for personal growth or whatever it is.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Let's focus on those.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: What are those things that we can sustain and repeat for the long haul?
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And then also, it's about acknowledging that everything that you choose to focus on comes with an active trade-off and so many people don't do that actual calculation of like, okay, well, if this is the thing that we are going to do, what are all of the things that we cannot do anymore?
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Right, what are the thing that we are going to do?
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: What are all of the things that we cannot do anymore?
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: What are the things that we have to stop doing?
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: What are the behaviors or the products or the things that we have to just take offline?
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And then, similarly, the flip side of that is also true is well, but for all the things that we're shutting the door to, it means that we are releasing, like resources, talent, finance, whatever it is energy to focus on the things that we are saying yes to.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And so that willingness to acknowledge very concretely what are those trade-offs that you are making and being intentional about those trade-offs, is something that you know is absolutely critical for, again, for growth, for being bold, for whatever you want to accomplish.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: But it you know, everything comes at a price, so let's acknowledge what the price is that you are willing to pay.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you think about the why of your book, it sounds like you always wanted to write a book or have written probably many iterations of things over time.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: But why this book?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Why did you want to write this?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: For two big reasons.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: One was it was the book that I needed when I was going through my journey, and so in some ways, it's really self-indulgent.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: That is really a true statement.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: You write the book you wish you had or you needed, right?
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I feel the same way, like with my book as well.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, and for me it was.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: You know I I needed that and I am able now to share what I learned because I went through that process.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: So the second part of that answer is because I know other people are struggling with it, because I would see in so much of my consulting work or so much of my you know, sort of exec work or whatever, it was the same challenges, the same things that you and I have been talking about.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Right, it's around the mindset, around the behaviors, the habits, the disciplines, the trade-offs.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: All of these things were things that people were constantly struggling with, and so for me it was.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: This was, in some ways, a service to my past self and an opportunity for me to share with others who I knew were going through very similar challenges.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so do you feel like you are able to help people open up and realize?
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I think there's a sense of perfection that may exist at times in leadership and for males and females around that.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Have you ever experienced that in the sense of it has to be in the best place, the most perfect place, before I take that step, small or big, I mean, have you, if you've seen that in your consulting and the things you've done with organizations, and what do you do to combat perfectionism?
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, love this question.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: To be honest, it's something that I still struggle with, and so one of the words that you used earlier is practice, and I refer to so much around leadership, around, you know again, personal development and personal growth, et cetera.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: As a practice, because there's never a point at which you nail everything perfectly and that you don't need to think about it anymore.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: It gets easier with time, whereas the process can be shorter, but for me, the perfectionism is often a crutch.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: It's an excuse to not do something, which is the antithesis of being bold and of growth and of evolution.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Right, because it's like oh well, it's never going to be the way that I want it to be, or they'll never be able to execute it that way, so I'm not even going to try.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Right, it's sort of forestalling the possibility before you've even given it a chance, which is, in my view and this is how I sort of talked to myself about it in the past as well which is really lazy.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Right, it's sort of like oh well, okay, I can't be bothered to do it, which is fundamentally what it comes down to.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: So is that really the way I want to make to the world?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Is like oh just, actually I can't be bothered because it's never going to be perfect.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: No right, some of it is like, yeah, it's not going to be the way that I anticipate, but also perfect, and I think I do talk about this in the book.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Perfect is such an arbitrary and a subjective definition, so I might be waiting until something is absolutely polished to like the nth degree and think it is ready for the real world, and then it might go out there and it's nobody cares, right, because I've been spending so much time in my head trying to perfect this thing without any interaction with the real world that I've probably lost perspective as well.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: And similarly, there have been so many times where I've been like well, I just need to put something together quickly because I don't have time to do the more perfect thing, and it's been absolutely brilliant, and so one you can never gauge what others will find perfect or not, so that's not really up to you to hold back.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: And then, secondly, it is a form of laziness and also something that you shared earlier fear, right, it's either fear or it's laziness, and sometimes for me both for myself, but also in working with others it's really helpful to distill things to as simple as possible, not oversimplify and make it simplistic, but to simplify it, to like the absolute essence, like what is really going on here, right?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Is it fear?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Is it anxiety?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Is it, you know, sort of like feeling like you're going to let people down, you know?
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: what are we actually dealing with?
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Because perfectionism, everybody claims to do it and then actually nothing is perfect, and so like we can't all be getting it totally wrong, and so that's the process that I've used for myself and for others.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: It's like, what is the essence of the problem?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: You're right Talking it through, getting to the core of the problem, and then again, as I shared earlier, the way to combat that is to just try little things, cause you don't know until you try what works, what the market will respond to, what people are going to need or like, and so it reinforces us to just be a little bit more curious and open about.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Well, let me try this experiment, let me try this little thing and see, and then we can improve it as you go.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: So start from where you are with what you've got, and then you can always improve it as you go from there.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you think about your book so like I have you know every book has its nooks and crannies and, kind of as you're, you're creating it like there are certain things you want to cover because it's the base or the foundation.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite space in your book or one that you want every reader to make sure they come into that space when they pick up your book?
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I'm going to cheat and give you two answers.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: One is the first, third, right, the first part, which is all about understanding yourself and what makes you tick and like spending that time and taking the space to really reflect on who you are, without the noise of the world, without the expectations, without the baggage of what people have told you you should be doing or where you should be by a certain point in your life.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: But all of that, like inner reflection and better understanding of ourselves because I think that is the foundation for everything else, both personally and professionally is just really understanding who you are right.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Your beliefs, yeah, exactly.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And your life.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And then the second part of that and this is a much sort of shorter, discrete section in the book, but it's probably one of my favorite quotes and it's not from myself, it's my dad's and he talks about living an absolute life versus a relative life.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, and the idea there is so many of us measure ourselves relatively, right, I know I'm successful because I make more than that person, or I have a bigger house, or I have a better title, or I have, you know, these external comparisons that we make, which is a relative, relative to you.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I am better.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: So therefore, I know I am succeeding, whereas, which is, which is a losing game, right, because there's always going to be someone smarter, prettier, younger, you know, wealthier, whatever it is.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: But the flip side of that is living an absolute life, and that again builds on that sense of who you are and what you care about and what are your values.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And the absolute life is in myself.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Am I okay, like, am I happy and satisfied with what I'm doing, with how I'm doing it and who I am as an individual?
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: And for me, getting to that point of being able to live an absolute life where you're not distracted by how many followers that person has or how much better that person's business is doing or you know whatever else it is, but instead just looking internally to your life.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: And if you're good there, then who cares about all the other stuff?
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Right, and this doesn't come naturally to us.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: We live in worlds and societies that are constantly forcing us to compare and rank.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: But for me, even now, it's again another practice where every time I find myself slipping down that like deep, dark vortex of comparison right and feeling like, oh well, they're better.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: You know, I wish I were where they were, I had that thing.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I force myself to come back to this practice of like but in the absolute, am I happy with who I am, what I'm doing and how I'm doing it?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: And if I can say yes to those things, then you know what it helps.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Just bring me back down from, like, the crazy of the rest of the world and that, yeah, that really unhelpful comparison.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's an ongoing practice, right?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: It's not something like oh, check the box.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: I don't compare myself to anyone.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Like you said things come up and you may be like in this space.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: You're like, why am I doing this?
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: You know this is really unnecessary and isn't something I need to do and doesn't really mean anything right to you, exactly.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: So, as we close out, as you think about, you know, someone who can be bold by being who they are, no matter the context, which is your definition of bold.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: What's one step or the way to start?
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: When someone feels like, well, I really can't be me, I really am not sure how to be me in this space and place, what would you say to them?
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: How do I?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: start.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: A really helpful place and a very practical place to start is, instead of focusing on and obsessing over all of the things that make you different, make you an outlier, make you not feel like you fit in, is to instead ask yourself the question well, how am I adding value to this Right, what am I uniquely bringing to this room, to this organization, to this party, whatever it is?
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And just making it about that Right.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Because how am I?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: adding value.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: How am I adding value?
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Like, just start your day with that.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Correct, because so often it's it's just, it's, it's really easy, it's a very practical question and it can be something small, right, it's.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: It can be like well, I'm the one who's got a different perspective because I cut my teeth at the CIA, or I'm the one who, you know, likes to tell really funny stories, or whatever I picked up the coffee and donuts.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Hey don't, don't cut that out.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: It can be that simple.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: It really is so yeah, I love that.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: We can call it the coffee and donuts approach.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: How are we adding value?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And there's always something.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: There's always something.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: There is always something that you are doing that adds value to the world, so I hope everyone hears that today.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, rupal, for being on the podcast.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: All the information about Rupal, her book and how to contact her and check out her TEDx is below in the episode notes.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.