Latest / Question Everything / Blindfolded and Arrested on Assignment in Israel (Ambie Award-winner for Best Reporting of the Year)

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Blindfolded and Arrested on Assignment in Israel (Ambie Award-winner for Best Reporting of the Year) · Question Everything

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, so we have some exciting news. The Ambys are
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: basically the Oscars of audio. They're given out by the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Podcast Academy. They pick nominees and there's a whole ceremony,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: which just happened right after the blizzards here in New
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: York at the end of February. And one of our
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: stories won the Amby for best reporting. This is the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: two-part series that our executive producer Robin Simeon reported last
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: January about the American journalist Jeremy Lafredo, who was arrested
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: in Israel while reporting there in 2024. He was the
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: first American journalist to be arrested by Israel. And that
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: was initially what we were interested in about this story.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: But honestly, it went a place we did not expect.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Robin and our producer, Zach St. Louis, who produced the story,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and editor Joel Lovell really followed just the facts as
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: we found them to paint a picture of a much
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: more complicated and honestly challenging situation to confront than I
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: certainly expected when we started that story. I'm really proud
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of it. It took a lot of work. Even in
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: recent weeks, I've heard people talk about how these stories
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: really stuck with them. So we figured we'd play them again.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: We're going to run the two now award-winning episodes back
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: to back this week and next. Today, we have part
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: one of that story. Again, we first aired it in
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: January of last year. Here is Robin.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Robin Simeon, the executive producer of Question Everything.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: And usually I'm behind the scenes on these episodes. But today,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Brian and I have switched hats. I put down my
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: editing notebook and dusted off my recording gear so that
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this story that came to me
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: from a very close friend.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Just tell me your name.
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: My name is Rob Dodge.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: What do my kids call you?
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: Uncle Rob.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: Oh, evil gay Uncle Rob?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. Rob is a dog-loving politics wonk who knows
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: more about movies than anyone I've ever met and can
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: tell you or my kids. countless porny stories about the
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: restaurant scene in New York in the 90s.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Hence his nickname.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Rob and I met working in restaurants in New York
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: over 20 years ago. Rob's 72 and is super plugged
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: in to what's happening in the East Village since he's
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: lived there for 30 years. He works at a sweet
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: little Italian restaurant on 5th Street and Avenue B. That's
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: also a celebrity spot called Lavagna. A while ago, Rob
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: was telling me about these two young men, 20-somethingers. who
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: started hanging out at the restaurant.
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: And because they were really tan, I immediately stereotyped them as,
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: you know, Hampton's spoiled brass moving into the East Village.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: Turned out they were the furthest thing from that. Once again,
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: stereotyping is not a good thing. They would come in
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: every Friday night, and slowly but surely, after about a month,
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: we all became friendly.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Of course they did.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Everyone loves Robb. One of them was really into politics.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: His name is Jeremy. Jeremy Lefredo.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: He's a reporter, actually.
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: I found out a lot about Jeremy. And we would,
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: you know, we would talk politics, okay? I strike up conversations.
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: That's why I'm good at what I do.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Then, almost a year ago, Jeremy disappeared for a while.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Rob didn't know why until one of Jeremy's buddies told
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Rob that he'd been in Gaza reporting.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Rob was like, Gaza.
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: What the fuck? He got into Gaza when it was,
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: no one was getting into Gaza. It reminded me of
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: John Reed in the movie Reds getting into Russia when
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: no one got into Russia in another time and place.
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: He's definitely got balls.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: On the trailer of this truck is wheat flour for
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: the starving and besieged people of the Gaza Strip.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Rob sent me the video report that Jeremy made about
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: the trip from March 2024. In it, Jeremy is reporting
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: at a border crossing into southern Gaza, where he is
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: embedded with a group of Israelis who are there to
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: physically block trucks filled with supplies, like food, water and gas,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: from getting to the Palestinians in Gaza who need it.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: The title of the video is, in quotes, Kill Them All.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: The quote referencing a young man, Hebrew-speaking, who appears early
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: in the video. There are two Hebrew-speaking men early in
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: the video, but the second one, he is in a
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: white baseball cap, half-smiling, smirking, talking into the microphone on
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: his earbuds. He's subtitled, they read, We need to be
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: united and kill all of them. As in, calling for
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: the mass murder of Palestinians. That sentiment shows up again,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: three more times. One man saying Israel could erase them
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: in one second. Another saying the Torah says to destroy them.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: A young woman, maybe in her teens or older, speaking
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: in English says, kill them. I don't care. It turned
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: my stomach. The video shows families, kids, camping out at
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: the border. Some in matching t-shirts, organized groups, singing, sitting
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: in those low tailgate folding chairs. It's kind of a
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: wholesome family sinister vibe. A couple of young men drink
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: beer and one flashes a peace sign at the camera.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: A man gives pastries to IDF soldiers. Jeremy says there
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: are dozens there. Also, according to Jeremy's.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: Report, As soon as the settlers show up at these crossings,
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: the military, meant to secure the area, stands down and
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: guides everyone to the border gates.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Israeli Defense Forces, the IDF, appear to be letting this
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: happen at the border. The Washington Post reported on a
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: similar scene. where the IDF allowed the blocking of aid.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: One of the groups that day, Zav9, were so good
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: at repeatedly blocking aid to Gaza that the Biden administration
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: ultimately sanctioned them. But at the time Rob had sent
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: me the video, these aid blocking missions were just starting
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: to be known. Again, this was last spring. I hadn't
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: seen any reporting like it, especially the views of the
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: people in the video speaking so plainly and hatefully. That
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: one guy in the beginning with his creepy smile, Jeremy's
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: video racked up views online. Commenters expressed outrage and praised
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: the reporting. I was outraged and amazed. It is a
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: reporting feat, being there in person and getting all these
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: people to talk to him. At the end of the video,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: when the IDF lets some of the people into Gaza,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: which is not supposed to happen, Jeremy goes with them.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Jeremy films one woman... in an orange t-shirt and big
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: sun hat, fantasizing about her husband's plans to build new
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Israeli cities in Gaza.
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: He loved the Gaza Strip.
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: Would you live there?
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: By the beach? Oh, for sure.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: My friend Rob watched this and thought, how is this
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: story not breaking news?
• 7:11
  Speaker 5: I found it shocking and surprising that you know, network,
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: and that means all network media, no one picked up
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: on this story. And he somewhat, you know, he moved
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: my position.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: You're saying he moved your position with that video?
• 7:28
  Speaker 6: Yes, he got me to see, you know, I had
• 7:32
  Speaker 6: no idea that the Netanyahu government was allowing settlers to
• 7:37
  Speaker 6: come and block aid going into these poor people in Gaza.
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: No one did. He was the first reporter to cover
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: this story, to my knowledge. And I thought it was
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: a very important story to get out there. And that's
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: when I turned him on to you, because I knew
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: you were working on this new podcast. So I thought
• 7:54
  Speaker 5: you two should.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: Be hooked up.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: The place where Jeremy works, it's controversial, to say the least.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It's called the Gray Zone. Their tagline is Independent News
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: and Investigative Journalism on Empire. Their coverage is strident and
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: so hypercritical of U.S. foreign policy that it ends up
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: being pretty sympathetic to America's adversaries like Russia, Syria, China, Iran.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: In fact, the Gray Zone's founder, a journalist named Max Blumenthal,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: is constantly trying to punch away implications that the Gray
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Zone is paid for by Russia or Iran. He says
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: it's funded by readers. Though Max has been a frequent
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: guest on Russian and Iranian state TV, And others at
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: the gray zone have worked for those places. There's this
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: place called NewsGuard. It grades the dependability of various news sources.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Out of 100, it gives the gray zone 49.5. And
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: a proceed with caution warning, saying that the gray zone
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: has sometimes advanced untrue conspiracies about Western interference in global
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: politics and used misleading headlines. Just to give you a
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: flavor of the gray zone and its founder, When NewsGuard
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: was rating the site, Max Blumenthal responded to them, quote,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Do you seriously expect us to grovel for approval from
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: the same tentacle of the national security state and financial
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: oligarchy that has rated CNN as a highly credible news source?
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I asked Rob about the gray zone. Do you know
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: who he works for?
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: I've done a little digging. I know what the gray
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: zone is. I know it's controversial. The weight. Rob was
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: not so concerned.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: I think because the gray zone is saying it can
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: do important work that traditional big-name media can't do, because
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: it's too intertwined with corporate and government interests. And then
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: the gray zone is delivering on that promise with guerrilla-style reporting.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I saw the appeal of that and was interested in Jeremy, who,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: whatever the gray zone was about, was still doing a
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: really hard thing. Going to a war zone, getting not
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: one but many tricky interviews, and exposing corruption at the
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Gaza border. I brought Jeremy's story up at a Question
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Everything story meeting, wondering, essentially, how should we think about
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: that daring story Jeremy did, in light of where he works?
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I was having one of those moments, maybe you can relate,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: you find some story online, and it shocks you.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Or makes you angry, and then you wonder about it.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Who made it? Can you trust it?
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: In this case, because my friend knew the reporter who
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: made the video, I had a chance to really figure
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: that out firsthand, to see if this one story was solid.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I scheduled an interview with Jeremy back in June about
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: that story of his, the aid blocking story, but he
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: had to cancel. I had to reschedule, and then I
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: stopped hearing from him. Until this past October, when I
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: learned that Jeremy had gone back to Israel to do
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: more reporting and, while he was there, got arrested and
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: hadn't been let go. Jeremy Lefredo holds a very particular title.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: He's the only American journalist to ever be formally arrested
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: by Israel. And yet what happened to him just three
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: months ago has barely caught the attention of major American news.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe you haven't even heard about this. Well, my friend
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Rob heard about it.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: He was furious.
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: This is an American journalist to an, I'm air quoting this,
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: which you can't see, an ally that we are sending
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: billions of dollars to as they commit atrocities to the
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: poor Gazan people. And all he's doing is trying to
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: find out what's going on so he can report on it.
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: I was appalled.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: That's the story we have today. The story of a
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: 20-something reporter blindly feeling his way through truly dicey uncharted
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: territory with so many twists and turns that this is
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: a two-part series. Two episodes this week and then our
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: next episode too. Today on Question Everything, from KCRW and
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Placement Theory, what happened to my friend's friend, Jeremy Lefredo,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: who was arrested in Israel for being a reporter? At
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: least that's what he thought at the time. Though, to
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: be honest, it's not exactly all that straightforward. And by
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the end of this, hopefully, we'll see, I'm still figuring
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: it out, I'll get an answer to my question of
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: whether I should trust Jeremy and the Gray Zones reporting.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Stick around.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: The day he got detained, Jeremy Lafredo was in a
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: car in the West Bank on his way to the
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: city of Nablus. This was a little over three months
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: ago in October. It was a scorching hot day and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Jeremy was with four other people. A human rights activist,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: a human rights activist slash reporter, a photographer, and another
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: reporter who was Palestinian and was driving the car. It
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: might help to picture the West Bank like this. There's
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: a big area, it's called Area C, and that's under
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Israel's control. Then there are like islands within Area C.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: One of them, Area B. is jointly controlled by Israel
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and the Palestinian Authority. And the other, Area A, where
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Nablus is, that's solely controlled by the Palestinians. Israeli citizens
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: aren't even allowed to go to Area A, though Israeli
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: security forces regularly conduct raids there, which is part of
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: why Jeremy wants to go there, to see what resistance
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: to Israel looks like on the ground in the West Bank.
• 13:47
  Speaker 7: I was watching videos online, like, every day, all the
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: time of what a raid in the Northern West Bank
• 13:56
  Speaker 7: looks like right now. What type of weapons are they using?
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: How much movement can people exercise while the raid is happening?
• 14:02
  Speaker 7: How violent do the resistance fighters, the Palestinians get when
• 14:06
  Speaker 7: their village has the army in it?
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: You know, it's just like, I'm seeing all these videos.
• 14:12
  Speaker 7: This is probably the first time that, you know, this
• 14:15
  Speaker 7: era where you can watch a raid from someone trapped
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: in a house, from their cell phone video and they
• 14:20
  Speaker 7: can upload it to the internet and I can watch
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: what it's like.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: So I know what it's going to be like there.
• 14:24
  Speaker 7: And I'm definitely really nervous, but I'm with people in
• 14:27
  Speaker 7: the car with me that have been traveling in and
• 14:31
  Speaker 7: out of these villages for a few years. So I
• 14:34
  Speaker 7: do feel more comfortable being with them and being with
• 14:36
  Speaker 7: the group than just being by myself.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: The person driving Hussein Al-Harini had just turned 30. Everyone
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: else is in their 20s. Jeremy's 28. He was riding
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: in the front passenger seat. In the backseat was the
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: human rights activist Meir Gorodskoy. There's another woman, an Israeli
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: photographer named Sophia, who asked me not to use her
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: last name, and a Russian-Israeli who calls himself an activist
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: and reporter, Andre. He goes by AndreX on Twitter. Meir
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and Andre both work for many different human rights advocacy
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: organizations in the West Bank. Hussein's Palestinian. He lives in Natwani,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: a small village in the southern West Bank. so he's
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: allowed to move through the checkpoints into Palestinian-controlled territory. And
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Jeremy's an American citizen, so he's allowed to go there too.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Jeremy believes the others in the backseat were playing a
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: slightly higher-stakes game than he and Hussein were, because they
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: are Israeli.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: And they're not technically allowed into Nablus.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: They'd been driving for four hours on a main highway
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: that was gridlocked with traffic, so they'd turned off onto
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the crappier two-lane backroads. So far, Hussein, the one driving
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: the car, had been asked to show his ID at
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: every checkpoint.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: They pulled into the.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: City of Burin, about 20 minutes from Nablus, when they
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: arrived at what Jeremy thinks is the last checkpoint of
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the trip, on the border of Area B and Area C.
• 16:04
  Speaker 7: Apparently our Palestinian driver drove a few feet further than
• 16:09
  Speaker 7: the army soldiers told him to drive when they told
• 16:12
  Speaker 7: him to slow down. And for that reason, they told
• 16:14
  Speaker 7: us to pull off to the side and hand over
• 16:16
  Speaker 7: our identifications. And the Israeli soldier asks for.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: All of our IDs.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: How are you feeling at that moment?
• 16:24
  Speaker 7: I'm thinking I am way better off than everyone else
• 16:28
  Speaker 7: in this car. I really am thinking I'm nervous for them,
• 16:32
  Speaker 7: but I know I'm American and I know I'm allowed
• 16:35
  Speaker 7: to go where I'm going. So worst case scenario, he
• 16:38
  Speaker 7: tells us to turn around because these people are Israeli
• 16:42
  Speaker 7: and he found out somehow. Or they get in trouble
• 16:44
  Speaker 7: and I'm fined.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: The soldiers are in no hurry. Maybe an hour or
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: so goes by.
• 16:53
  Speaker 7: We're eating cucumbers. We got out of the car a
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: few times. There was fig trees next to us. We
• 16:58
  Speaker 7: grabbed figs and went back in the car.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: We're talking.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: What were you talking about?
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: They are all pretty nervous because they are, like, actively
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: about to break the law. Yeah. So they're nervous.
• 17:11
  Speaker 7: They're talking about maybe we should just go back. Oh, no,
• 17:14
  Speaker 7: but we can't because they already have our passports.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: What should I say if he asks me if I'm Israeli?
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: Should I lie?
• 17:20
  Speaker 7: Should I just say I'm Israeli? So they're having these
• 17:23
  Speaker 7: conversations over and over.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: People are deleting things off their phones, deleting pictures, deleting
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: apps off their cell phones, hiding their phones and taking out.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Maybe they have a second phone.
• 17:34
  Speaker 7: They say that that's their primary phone.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: The Palestinian driver, he was deleting things off his phone.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of calm. I am looking behind me and
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: wondering what's taking so long.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: I should mention.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I've spoken to everyone in the car that day for
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: this story, and some remember the order of events differently,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: but the details here reflect the summation of.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: What I learned.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: An Israeli soldier with an assault rifle came over to
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: their car and asked for their phones. Andre started recording
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: the soldier on his phone. Jeremy describes him, Andre, as
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: someone who doesn't mind yelling at a soldier.
• 18:10
  Speaker 7: Andre says, I'm not going to give you my phone.
• 18:12
  Speaker 7: You cannot take my phone. And the guy says, um, No,
• 18:17
  Speaker 7: give me your phone right now.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Get out of the car.
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: The soldier puts his hand in the door, opens the door,
• 18:24
  Speaker 7: grabs Andre, grabs Andre out of the car by like
• 18:27
  Speaker 7: his head and neck, puts him on the ground, points
• 18:30
  Speaker 7: his gun, his M16 or AR-15, I don't know what
• 18:33
  Speaker 7: it was, a long gun, like a rifle, in Andre's face.
• 18:38
  Speaker 7: Keeps it there for like maybe five seconds. Everyone's silent.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: It's really scary. And then He takes it away.
• 18:48
  Speaker 7: He hits Andre once in the face with like an
• 18:50
  Speaker 7: open hand and then takes his phone. And now he says,
• 18:52
  Speaker 7: now everyone get out of the car and give me
• 18:54
  Speaker 7: your phones. I said, I'm an American.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: I don't understand. And he ended his sentence by saying,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: but you still have to give me your cell phone.
• 19:05
  Speaker 7: He told us all to get out of the car
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: and sit on the dirt outside of the car. I'm
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: like crisscross applesauce. We're all a few feet away from
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: each other sitting in dirt. about 30 feet away from
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: this checkpoint. And they went across the street. They made
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: phone calls to, like, what presumably was, like, their superiors,
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: and one by one they're asking us to come unlock
• 19:27
  Speaker 7: our phones, and we all said no. Andre asked me
• 19:34
  Speaker 7: if I was okay. I said yes, and we get
• 19:37
  Speaker 7: yelled at by three different soldiers saying to stop talking. And, like,
• 19:41
  Speaker 7: I would just, like, look at the sun, or, like,
• 19:43
  Speaker 7: I would look at the soldiers, or I would look
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: at the ground. No matter where I looked, like I'd
• 19:48
  Speaker 7: have a soldier pointing at me saying like, what, do
• 19:49
  Speaker 7: you have a problem?
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: And I was like, I don't know. How do I
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: act like I have less of a problem? Like where
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: do I look? The Palestinian driver next to me, I
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: don't know exactly what's happening with him, but like he
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: needed water or something.
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: And he was like getting very tired, weak. And they
• 20:06
  Speaker 7: were making fun of him saying that vitamin D is
• 20:08
  Speaker 7: good for you. Vitamin D is good for you.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Jeremy says one of the soldiers called Jeremy by his
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: last name.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: Mr.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Lafredo, come here, he says. Jeremy asks what's happening.
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: They took out maybe 20 or 30 feet of cloth,
• 20:24
  Speaker 7: and they wrapped it tightly around my head, my eyes,
• 20:27
  Speaker 7: my ears, and part of my nose as a blindfold.
• 20:30
  Speaker 7: They shackled my legs, and they put my hands behind
• 20:34
  Speaker 7: my back and zip-tied my hands.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: And I said, why are you doing this? And they said,
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: because intelligence.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Jeremy doesn't know what that means, intelligence. The others are
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: being handcuffed and blindfolded, too. One of them, Sophia, was
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: allowed to not have her face covered. Also, this is
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: one of the spots where the people in the car
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: remember the timing differently, whether they got shackled this.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Early in the ordeal or later.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: They were taken to a military building where they sat
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: in a room together. And then the two women were
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: put in a car and driven off. Jeremy and Andre
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: got put in a different vehicle.
• 21:15
  Speaker 7: We're laying down in the back of a military truck.
• 21:17
  Speaker 7: There are soldiers in the car saying, do you love Israel?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: Do you love Israel? Just taunting us.
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: I've seen the army go into Palestinian villages, and when
• 21:31
  Speaker 7: they arrest someone, they arrest them like they blindfold them
• 21:35
  Speaker 7: with a white thing, they shackle them, and they handcuff them.
• 21:38
  Speaker 7: I've seen that done before, never to an American soldier.
• 21:41
  Speaker 7: never to anyone who's not Palestinian.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Jeremy can't quite get a handle on what's happening. Journalists
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: are supposed to be treated as civilians during wartime, supposed
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: to be protected. That's in the Geneva Conventions that Israel,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: which touts itself as the only democracy in the Middle East,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: signed on to. And yet Israeli forces have been arresting
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Palestinian reporters in record numbers. As of this week, according
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: to the Committee to Protect Journalists, Israel had arrested 72
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Palestinian journalists and media workers. The number of Palestinian journalists
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: and media workers who have lost their lives covering this
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: war makes it one of the worst conflicts for journalists.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: 157 Palestinian journalists and media workers have been killed in
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the conflict. Again, that's from the Committee to Protect Journalists,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: which found that 11 journalists were directly targeted by Israeli forces.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: It classifies those as murders. And Al Jazeera's numbers are
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: more damning. citing 222 Palestinian journalists and media workers killed
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: as of December 26 in Gaza alone. And in 2022,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Israeli forces killed a Palestinian-American reporter for Al Jazeera, Shireen
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Abu Akleh. She was covering a raid in the Jenin
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: refugee camp, a place where Jeremy's hoping to go. An
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Israeli soldier shot her in the head while she was
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: wearing a blue press vest. Jeremy is not totally naive
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: about the dangers. But he also knows the U.S. is
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Israel's ally.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: So why him? What's going on here?
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Blindfolded in the back of the Humvee, Jeremy wondered if
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: they were being driven in circles as a scare tactic. Eventually,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: they stopped and pulled him and Andre out.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Of the vehicle.
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: They unhandcuffed me and told me that I can take
• 23:32
  Speaker 7: off my blindfold. I was in a parking lot on
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: top of a mountain. I don't know where I was exactly,
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: but all I could see was a parking lot and
• 23:41
  Speaker 7: that everything else was lower than me.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: So Jeremy didn't know where he was and didn't know
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: what happened to Sophia, Meir, or Hussein. Before leaving on
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: this trip, he'd been checking in regularly with his dad
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: in New Jersey and his girlfriend in New York, telling
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: them that he was fine, downplaying his nervousness about the
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: reporting he was doing. How long would it be before
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: they started to worry because he hadn't touched base? How
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: long would it take his editor back in New York
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: to notice that he'd dropped out of contact? Did the
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: soldiers believe he was a journalist? Had they seen his work? And,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: if they had, would that help him or hurt him?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: When he was 19, Jeremy went to Manhattan College in
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Riverdale in the Bronx. where he studied history before switching
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to journalism and international relations. In college, he worked at
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: a local paper called the Riverdale Press. Straight out of college,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: he landed his first full-time job.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: I worked for, this is controversial here, and I understand
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: how people might look down on it, but I worked
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: for Russia Today, like RT.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: RT is Russia's state-run media channel and textbook propaganda. a
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: megaphone funded by the Russian government. It blurs real reporting
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: with conspiracies, like Obama birtherism theories, or stories managing to
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: blame Ukraine for making Russia invade it. The original RT
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: was English-speaking only, so deliberately in search of an English-speaking audience.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: It has since expanded to 10 other languages. Where Jeremy worked,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: RT America, was a branch of RT Proper. during a
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: window of time when Russian-funded media operated openly as Russian-funded
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: media in an office in D.C. For a stint, they
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: even acquired Capitol Hill press credentials. But RT America was
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: still RT, for us, by Russia. Some of Jeremy's former
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: professors were not thrilled about him working for RT. They
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: thought it wasn't a great place to start off a
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: career in journalism. But Jeremy still thought he could do
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: impactful work, producing a TV show.
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: Covering international relations and U.S. domestic policy. And it was
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: nice because as a young person, I was able to
• 26:09
  Speaker 7: truly produce a news show at 21 years old.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: I picked the topics. I found the guests. I booked
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: the guests, the professors, the U.N. rapporteurs.
• 26:21
  Speaker 7: And it was lots of fun. And, of course, it's
• 26:24
  Speaker 7: funded by Russia. But at the same time, you know,
• 26:27
  Speaker 7: it's American journalists. It's an American audience. Of course, Russia
• 26:33
  Speaker 7: wants to categorize and show how corrupt U.S. systems of
• 26:40
  Speaker 7: power are and how bad our military is. Of course,
• 26:44
  Speaker 7: they want to use that for propaganda, and I get that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 7: But at the same time, a lot of that is true.
• 26:49
  Speaker 7: There's a lot of corruption here. Our military is not
• 26:51
  Speaker 7: always great. If we are Americans telling Americans this, I
• 26:55
  Speaker 7: didn't see the harm. I understand my paycheck is coming
• 26:59
  Speaker 7: from the Russian state. And, like, that's not, of course,
• 27:01
  Speaker 7: that's not great, but, like, I, it's, you know, becoming from,
• 27:06
  Speaker 7: you know, Murdoch or becoming from Fox News and, you know,
• 27:10
  Speaker 7: to each their own.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: RT America shut down in 2022, right after Russia invaded Ukraine.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: This was after it had been labeled a foreign agent
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: by the DOJ and had lost its Capitol Hill press credentials.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Jeremy was gone by then. But he had made some
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: industry connections at RT, and it was at RT where
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: he met his future editor and Grey Zone founder, Max Blumenthal. Max,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: who at one point had written for more traditional places
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: like The Nation and The New York Times, had been
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: a guest on the RT America show Jeremy worked on. So,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: years later, when Jeremy found himself out of a job,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: with RT on his resume, and looking for freelance work,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: he got a job at Max's online news site.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: The gray zone.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Before Jeremy, back in 2014, Max had gone to Gaza
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: and reported on the conflict. This reporting is all very
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: critical of Israel. Jeremy is Jewish, and so is Max,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: and one of Max's books Jeremy loved, about on-the-ground reporting
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: in Gaza. When October 7th happened in 2023, 27-year-old Jeremy
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: thought truly he would love to go to Israel, try
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: to do something similar to what Max might have done.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: report the conflict there in person to try to tell
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: a story that shows Israel not as a victim, but
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: as a clear oppressor, a state committing war crimes that
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: the U.S. is aiding, with Max as his editor back
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: in New York. Jeremy had never reported in a conflict
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: zone before, had no training, had never been to Israel.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Max told him about a few fixers in the West
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Bank and names of hotels, but that was about it.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: But he was eager.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So barely a week after the October 7th attacks, Jeremy
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: got on a plane to Tel Aviv.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Going to Israel, how nervous were you?
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: I wasn't that nervous. It sounds crazy. I don't even,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: I can't explain.
• 29:11
  Speaker 7: But there are, you know, dozens of reporters in every
• 29:15
  Speaker 7: war zone and every conflict zone you can think of.
• 29:18
  Speaker 7: And it was easy for me to justify this because
• 29:21
  Speaker 7: it was like, I'm just another one.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: If they're all fine, I'll be fine. I wasn't wrestling yet.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: If anything, I was really excited.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Say more about that.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: Excited.
• 29:32
  Speaker 7: By going there, I automatically, I feel like I was
• 29:36
  Speaker 7: doing something more important than I was doing before.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: So I was happy. was happy.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I've heard this before from war reporters. You're a part
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of this small community of people seeing what's really happening
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: up close.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: It's thrilling.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: The adrenaline is addictive and obviously dangerous. But it's exponentially
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: more dangerous for people who aren't experienced. And Jeremy definitely
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: wasn't experienced. Jeremy says that on his first night in
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Tel Aviv.
• 30:04
  Speaker 7: I was on the phone with my father and talking
• 30:07
  Speaker 7: to my dad on the phone, walking down the street.
• 30:10
  Speaker 7: And like a siren starts happening.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: And he says, what's that? And I said, I don't know.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: I'm going to mute you. I thought like a fire
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: truck was coming. And I said, dad, the truck's coming
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: to call you back. I hung up on him.
• 30:22
  Speaker 7: And it was a rocket siren. And I looked, and
• 30:25
  Speaker 7: I saw people running. And I'm looking around. Everyone's going
• 30:28
  Speaker 7: to the hotel lobby that I'm staying at. And in
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: this hotel, it's just journalists at this point and a
• 30:33
  Speaker 7: few displaced families from southern Israel. And we all go
• 30:37
  Speaker 7: into a bomb shelter. And so it was a lot
• 30:41
  Speaker 7: to handle. I've been there for maybe four hours.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: He's stressed out.
• 30:45
  Speaker 7: Am I okay? Should I stay in this bomb shelter?
• 30:48
  Speaker 7: Should I go across the street? Can I go back outside?
• 30:50
  Speaker 7: And I text my editor, Max Blumenthal, I say, I'm
• 30:53
  Speaker 7: in a bomb shelter.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: There's rockets.
• 30:55
  Speaker 7: He says, he says, interview people. And I'm thinking, I forgot, like,
• 31:01
  Speaker 7: I'm at work. Max is saying, like, you're fine. There's
• 31:04
  Speaker 7: going to be bombs in Tel Aviv. You should report
• 31:07
  Speaker 7: on it and start interviewing people. You know, he's lived
• 31:10
  Speaker 7: in Gaza for many years during wartime. And so I,
• 31:14
  Speaker 7: I'm like thinking, okay, I think I'm, overreacting, and.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: I need to, like, get to work.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: That's the dynamic and workflow between Jeremy and Max. Jeremy
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: would have story ideas. Max would give guidance. Then Jeremy
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: would wrangle together a driver here, a translator there, and report.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Over the course of the year, Jeremy made six stories
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: from Israel and the West Bank. There's the one about
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Israeli dissidents and the danger they're in for speaking out
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: against the war. A story titled, Armenian Christians Under Siege
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: by Israel, about the small Armenian community in Jerusalem's.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Old city who were facing displacement.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: And that story my friend Rob sent me, though it
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: went more viral than the others, about that group of
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Israelis blocking aid trucks on the Gaza border. And then,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a few days before he was detained, Jeremy filed a
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: quick story about the Iranian missile attacks on October.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: 1st, 2024.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: He loaded that story on Grayzone on October 5th, 2024.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Three days later, on his way to Nablus, he got arrested.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: The story Jeremy was on his way to Nablus to
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: report was by far his most dangerous.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: He made a plan.
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: I wanted to interview the resistance fighters from Janine Brigade.
• 32:36
  Speaker 7: I wanted to interview the Palestinian fighters. My phone was
• 32:39
  Speaker 7: filled with conversations with people who I did not know.
• 32:42
  Speaker 7: who are supposedly fixers in Janine, supposedly fixers in Nablus,
• 32:45
  Speaker 7: and I'm asking them, how can I meet these fighters?
• 32:49
  Speaker 7: They're very secretive. But, like, people have, journalists have spoken
• 32:53
  Speaker 7: to them. And it's valid journalist inquiry to, like, ask
• 32:55
  Speaker 7: these people questions, and I would love to do that.
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: You know, the Janine Brigade is an organized fighting group
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: in Janine that protects Janine and the Janine refugee camp
• 33:05
  Speaker 7: from the Israeli military.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: The Janine refugee camp was where Palestinian-American journalist Shirin Abu
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Akleh was shot and killed by the IDF in May 2022.
• 33:18
  Speaker 7: So if the Israeli military wants to come in and
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: shut off the water and tear up all the roads,
• 33:22
  Speaker 7: then the Janine Brigade might shoot at them and then
• 33:24
  Speaker 7: there will be a firefight. And so like their whole
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: goal is to try to protect the village and the
• 33:29
  Speaker 7: refugee camp from the Israeli military. And that's what all
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: these sort of, they call themselves resistance groups, but like,
• 33:36
  Speaker 7: you know, Israel would say that they're terrorists.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: You're really describing like a year-long trajectory going from like, oh,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I don't really know what I'll go see or what
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I'll go get. And I just wonder if it registered
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: for you that you're becoming a different kind of reporter,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: that your tolerance for risk-taking had gone up.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I actually have not thought about that until you
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: just said that just now. Yeah, no, you're entirely right.
• 34:09
  Speaker 7: Just like a month before I was there, there was
• 34:11
  Speaker 7: a raid in Jenin, which is when all the entrances
• 34:15
  Speaker 7: to the Jenin refugee camp are closed.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: Buildings are blown up. Buildings are raided. The water shut off.
• 34:20
  Speaker 7: There's firefighting between Palestinian fighters and IDF soldiers. And I'm
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: thinking like the chances are really good that I'm going
• 34:28
  Speaker 7: to be around like live gunfire for the first time ever.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: From the mountaintop parking lot, hours after he'd been taken
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: into custody, on his way to do that dangerous reporting
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: in the West Bank, Jeremy still didn't know what he
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: was being accused of or what had happened to Sophia
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and Mayer, the two women reporters they were with.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: Andre and I were put in a holding cell. This
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: is not a jail.
• 34:57
  Speaker 7: This is like a police-military compound in the West Bank.
• 35:00
  Speaker 7: And all of the police officers and intelligence officers and
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: soldiers are wearing plain clothes.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: Everybody's just in jeans and a t-shirt.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: You're in a room.
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: You know, we're in a room, but it has like
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: a jail gate and everything on it.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, bars?
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Okay, windows?
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: No windows.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: The soldiers ask Andre and Jeremy to hand over anything extra.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Standard issue contraband stuff. A necklace, a hat, shoelaces, belt.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: After a while, some soldiers open the gate and walk
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: them down a hallway when Jeremy says they were suddenly
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: reconnected with the others from their group.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: The two... dual citizens from Israel. They're two girls.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: They're women.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Please picture two women.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: They're walking down the hall with the soldiers. And like,
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: they seem to be like, they're not having the same
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: type of time that we are having. And maybe because
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: it's two Israeli girls.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: They're having a better time?
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. No, they're having a better time.
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: They don't have the blindfolds on and they don't have
• 35:56
  Speaker 7: a look of fear like in their face. So I
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: think they, at that point, had figured out that like,
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: we're going to get let go very soon.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: They walked to the second floor of the police station.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: And there, In the hallway.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: They've put a big sign or a flag against the wall.
• 36:11
  Speaker 7: It says, together we will win, which is like the
• 36:13
  Speaker 7: nationalistic war slogan right now in Israel.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: There's five police officers.
• 36:18
  Speaker 7: They told us to stand in front of like a militaristic,
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: nationalistic war slogan. I'm shackled and handcuffed in front of
• 36:27
  Speaker 7: a big wartime slogan flag. And they take out their
• 36:31
  Speaker 7: phones and they're taking photos with their cell phones and laughing.
• 36:34
  Speaker 7: telling us to smile, telling us to stop smiling, yelling
• 36:38
  Speaker 7: at us in Hebrew. Like, I don't understand them.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Just for fun.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: This is like a trophy photo.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly what I mean. It felt like a
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: trophy photo.
• 36:46
  Speaker 7: And I have all these soldiers and police officers taking
• 36:49
  Speaker 7: pictures on their phones and laughing.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: It's getting later, which is scary. It doesn't seem like
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: there's protocol. Like, there's no one. No one is keeping
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: checks and balances on anyone.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Was anyone in charge? Like, did you have a sense
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: just of the soldiers who were there? Oh, this guy,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: he's in charge.
• 37:07
  Speaker 7: There was one woman who was like maybe 45 years
• 37:10
  Speaker 7: old that I only saw for a few seconds that
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: night that would come out of an office and ask
• 37:14
  Speaker 7: them a question in Hebrew. And they would ask me
• 37:17
  Speaker 7: in English and I would tell them the answer. She said,
• 37:19
  Speaker 7: who's the American?
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: I said, me.
• 37:21
  Speaker 7: Kind of like, you know, so naive to think like
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: she's asking for who the American is because she wants
• 37:26
  Speaker 7: to let the American go.
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, it's me. It's me. She said, okay,
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: and then she walked away.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: This whole time, midday to late at night, Jeremy and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Andre told me they had not been offered food or water,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: not even a phone call, until finally a police officer
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: comes and tells Andre, there's a lawyer on the line
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: for you. Andre steps out of the cell, he's gone
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: a little while, and he comes back.
• 37:55
  Speaker 7: He's gone for maybe 30 minutes, and then I see
• 37:57
  Speaker 7: the two girls walking. the Israeli girls, walking by my
• 38:01
  Speaker 7: holding cell. And, like, they have a guilty look on
• 38:05
  Speaker 7: their face.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: They feel bad. Their heads are down.
• 38:08
  Speaker 7: From my cell, I said, where are you guys going?
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: What's happening? And one of them looked up at me
• 38:13
  Speaker 7: for a second. Like, she did not make eye contact
• 38:15
  Speaker 7: and said, like, they're letting us go. It was the
• 38:17
  Speaker 7: guiltiest they're letting us go ever.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Within the next hour or so, Andre was let go, too.
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: And that's when I got scared and my heart dropped.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Andre left, and with him, any possible chance for Jeremy
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: to understand what the soldiers or anyone around him was
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: saying in Hebrew. Jeremy sat there, quietly, listening to occasional
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: chatter in a language he doesn't know. And then, Jeremy says,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: something surreal happened.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: I'm Jeremy Lofredo for.
• 38:49
  Speaker 7: The Gray Zone in Israel, where last night Iran fired
• 38:52
  Speaker 7: over 200 ballistic missiles... I hear from the office... police
• 38:57
  Speaker 7: office that's next to my prison cell, my own voice.
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: I hear them listening to my video report on the
• 39:04
  Speaker 7: Iranian missile attack.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: That story that he quickly published right before heading to
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: the West Bank.
• 39:10
  Speaker 7: I hear them listening to it on their computer speakers.
• 39:12
  Speaker 7: And that's when it finally clicks for me that this
• 39:14
  Speaker 7: is not about trying to get into Nablus. This is
• 39:18
  Speaker 7: not about being with Israelis who are not allowed in
• 39:20
  Speaker 7: this part of the West Bank.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: This is about my journalism.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: What Jeremy reported that so pissed off the Israeli military.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: That's after the break.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: The story that got Jeremy arrested, the one he says
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: he heard wafting through the bars of his holding cell
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: at the police station. was the story he'd filed just
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: a few days before his arrest about rocket attacks from Iran.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Jeremy was at a cafe in Jerusalem when sirens went off.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: People started to panic.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: And when you look up, what do you see?
• 40:01
  Speaker 7: They look like shooting stars passing by. They're far enough
• 40:06
  Speaker 7: into the sky where it looks like a plane almost.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen anything like that with your own eyes?
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: No.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: I was really nervous.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Iran's missiles were fired at several targets, including an Air
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Force base and at intelligence headquarters, the Mossad, in Tel Aviv.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Israel said it shot down most of them.
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: I remember texting my editor saying, like, is this the
• 40:33
  Speaker 7: first time that Iran had sent missiles to Israel since
• 40:36
  Speaker 7: the start of the war? Like, how unprecedented is this? Like,
• 40:39
  Speaker 7: I'm not sure I know.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: What did Max say?
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: He said this is the second time. They did this
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: one other time.
• 40:45
  Speaker 7: When Israel bombed an Iranian type of diplomatic mission embassy
• 40:50
  Speaker 7: in Syria. But this was definitely the biggest, you know,
• 40:54
  Speaker 7: quantity of missiles ever sent by Iran, at least since
• 40:57
  Speaker 7: October 7th.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Jeremy had been getting ready to go to Nablus, but
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: given the missile attacks, Max was thinking about a new assignment,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a detour. By the next day, he started texting Jeremy reports,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: specifically messages.
• 41:12
  Speaker 7: Some videos that people have gathered, just what is happening
• 41:15
  Speaker 7: in different parts of the country, the aftermath of the
• 41:17
  Speaker 7: missile attacks, says it is a really newsworthy story. Like
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: these rockets, I know that's not your plan. I know
• 41:23
  Speaker 7: that we really have no interest in reporting on that,
• 41:25
  Speaker 7: but it's newsworthy and you're there.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: As Max said it, if an Iranian missile landed in
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Tel Aviv, that's an important story. Not just because Tel
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Aviv is a big, dense, cosmopolitan city, but because there
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: were some photos and videos already out saying that there
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: was a crater very close to Mossad headquarters.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: There was a PBS NewsHour report of a journalist. His
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: name's Nick Schifrin.
• 41:51
  Speaker 7: He posted on his Twitter account a video of him,
• 41:55
  Speaker 7: and he's standing in front of a crater in Tel
• 41:59
  Speaker 7: Aviv the night of that night.
• 42:01
  Speaker 8: This is the impact site for one of those Iranian
• 42:04
  Speaker 8: ballistic missiles.
• 42:06
  Speaker 7: He shows the camera of the crater, and then he
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: points to a building behind him and says.
• 42:10
  Speaker 8: That white building back there about 1,500 feet behind me
• 42:14
  Speaker 8: is the headquarters of the spy agency, the Mossad.
• 42:17
  Speaker 7: So he says where the crater is, he shows it,
• 42:20
  Speaker 7: and he says how far it was from the Mossad headquarters.
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: So that's the only thing that I saw about there
• 42:25
  Speaker 7: being any craters in Tel Aviv, about them being near.
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: The intelligence agency headquarters. So Max sent this video to me.
• 42:32
  Speaker 7: He said, apparently there's craters in Tel Aviv, and you
• 42:36
  Speaker 7: can't find anything anywhere except for this one PBS NewsHour
• 42:39
  Speaker 7: video in terms of the damage caused to Tel Aviv.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Jeremy and Max figured there had to be more out there,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: more evidence of the damage done. And what if the
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: gray zone could break that news? Try to show the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: extent to which Israel was much more damaged by Iran, possibly,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: than anyone was saying. To them, it seemed like the
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: kind of thing the government would be covering up. If
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: they could see the destruction up close, maybe they could
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: report some new details. that other outlets might be less
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: likely to publish because they are embarrassing to Israel. So
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Jeremy made his way to the spot where the reporter
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Nick Schifrin from PBS NewsHour broadcast in Tel Aviv.
• 43:20
  Speaker 7: He says he was 2,000 feet from the Mossad headquarters.
• 43:22
  Speaker 7: He said that in the video. So I'm finding the.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Neighborhood that the Mossad headquarters is in. I think we're
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: on the right street. It seems like we're near this
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: building that was in one of the videos that you
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: could see. There was a 2013 or 2013 building. sign
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: on the building, and now I'm driving, and I'm seeing
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: that building out of my window.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, you just recognize it.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm looking for it.
• 43:45
  Speaker 7: Tel Aviv is similar to Los Angeles or New York City,
• 43:48
  Speaker 7: where there's giant buildings of apartments or offices everywhere, public transportation,
• 43:54
  Speaker 7: cars everywhere, highways. And so that's why seeing a crater
• 44:00
  Speaker 7: in Tel Aviv was so incredibly interesting.
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: In Tel Aviv, in the Israeli media, Like, you're told
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: that a target that they missed was in Tel Aviv. But, like,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: that's not really the story is that there's a crater
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: in Tel Aviv.
• 44:16
  Speaker 7: I get to the place where I think the crater is,
• 44:20
  Speaker 7: and I look around, and I don't see anything out
• 44:23
  Speaker 7: of the ordinary, and then I see a car that
• 44:26
  Speaker 7: is totally demolished with dirt caked in to the entire vehicle.
• 44:31
  Speaker 7: I'm thinking that's not a car crash. There was four
• 44:34
  Speaker 7: or five entirely totaled vehicles with dirt and giant concrete
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: pieces the size of my torso scattered around everywhere. All
• 44:42
  Speaker 7: the vehicles are mangled. This is the day after the
• 44:45
  Speaker 7: missile attacks. Still, they haven't cleaned anything up.
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: I'm looking around. There's dirt everywhere.
• 44:50
  Speaker 7: There's cars that look like they just came from, you know,
• 44:52
  Speaker 7: the front lines of a war right here.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: I'm looking around. I'm seeing all this dirt. And I think, oh, wait,
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: this is where Nick Chivrin was standing from PBS NewsHour.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: I look behind me. Everything is the same as the video.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Except for one thing. The crater is no longer a crater.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: It's more of a mound of packed dirt. Jeremy thinks
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: the Mossad must have tried to hide the hole where
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: the crater was.
• 45:14
  Speaker 7: That's where this big pile of dirt is. They just
• 45:16
  Speaker 7: filled in the crater with dirt. And I'm also thinking,
• 45:19
  Speaker 7: why are there no other journalists here? This is a
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: giant story.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: What Jeremy is seeing, he feels like it confirms the
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: idea that something is being covered up. that there's something
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: big here that the Israeli government does not want anyone
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: to see.
• 45:34
  Speaker 7: This is the day after, and, like, it's just eerie,
• 45:39
  Speaker 7: kind of.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: It's silent. I'm the only one there.
• 45:42
  Speaker 7: Every time a car, like, I hear a car, I
• 45:44
  Speaker 7: think it's the police. I don't know why I'm the
• 45:47
  Speaker 7: only one there. And I'm also, they say, 2,000 feet
• 45:51
  Speaker 7: from the Mossad headquarters. But it was just a street
• 45:54
  Speaker 7: that I drove to with my taxi driver, like a
• 45:56
  Speaker 7: An Uber driver could take me there. It was totally
• 45:58
  Speaker 7: open to go to. The street was not closed off.
• 46:00
  Speaker 7: There was no signs, no anything. A missile came from Iran,
• 46:06
  Speaker 7: their biggest geopolitical enemy, and landed in their biggest and
• 46:09
  Speaker 7: most populated city. And there's no journals here. And there's
• 46:12
  Speaker 7: still all the destruction around. Destroyed cars everywhere. Debris everywhere.
• 46:16
  Speaker 7: Nothing had been swept up even yet. But the street
• 46:19
  Speaker 7: is open.
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: It's just empty. So I started to be worried. I'm
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: thinking the police are going to come yell at me.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: something's about to happen.
• 46:27
  Speaker 7: It was, like, an interesting energy in this place because, like,
• 46:31
  Speaker 7: it's just a giant story. To be the only one
• 46:33
  Speaker 7: there was strange.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: I got back, and I told Max that I'd done
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: this and this and this and got videos of this
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: and this and this, and he said, cool, when can
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: we have it out by? I said, oh, you're expecting
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: me to, okay.
• 46:48
  Speaker 7: So I said, okay, I'll edit it now, I'll put
• 46:50
  Speaker 7: it together, I'll be done in a day or two,
• 46:52
  Speaker 7: and then I will finally... get to go do what
• 46:55
  Speaker 7: I've been trying to report on, which is violence in
• 46:57
  Speaker 7: the West Bank. So I go to my hotel and
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: I put it together. The scene unfolded.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: Destroyed vehicles, torn up asphalt, and a massive crater, roughly
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: 30 feet wide, recently filled in with dirt.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: It's night.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: The camera pans from an empty city street lit up
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: with streetlights to a white, maybe 10-story building, much wider
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: than it is tall.
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: That's the Mossad headquarters. The missile had hit less than
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: 1,000 feet from Mossad headquarters.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: In a graphic, an overhead Google map image with two
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: big red circles shows where the crater is at Mossad
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: headquarters with coordinates.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: Given the proximity to what is considered one of the
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: world's most advanced intelligence agencies, it seemed clear that Israel
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: was taking extra precautions to conceal the exact impact location.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: For the Gray Zone, in Israel, Jeremy Lefredo.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: One thing to be aware of.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: In order to report in Israel, reporters typically get something
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: called a GPO, a government press office card. They are recommended,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: not required. Jeremy doesn't have that. He told me he
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: meant to apply for one, but that after October 7th,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: he had the impression that it was harder than ever
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: to get one.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: So he skipped it.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Plus, he thought if he was formally denied, it would
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: raise a red flag or carry some kind of penalty.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Then he got used to not having one and never applied.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: The government press office application requires you to say who
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: you work for, show contracts with your employer, and is
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: necessary to get a work visa.
• 48:31
  Speaker 7: And so if you have a government press office card,
• 48:33
  Speaker 7: you need to go through this Israeli military censor.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: The Israeli military censor is pretty much what it sounds like.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: It's a department of the IDF that requires journalists to
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: subject their reporting to military approval before publishing. The idea
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: is that during wartime there's sensitive information regarding national security
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: that could harm the country. The IDF has published a
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: list of topics that are off-limits to reporters. The list
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: includes things like weapons used by the IDF and stories
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: about people held hostage by Hamas and the exact location
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: of missile strikes and the extent of damage caused.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Right here are the censored coordinates.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Which Jeremy definitely did in his missile strike video. In fact,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: he makes a point of doing it. exactly what the
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: censors say are off limits.
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: Finding the exact impact site was difficult. Israel's military censor
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: had barred the media from reporting the locations of the
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: missile strikes.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Jeremy was aware of the censors.
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it truly was.
• 49:36
  Speaker 7: But when I made this report... of trying to document
• 49:39
  Speaker 7: where missiles had fallen. I saw that PBS NewsHour and
• 49:43
  Speaker 7: Yannet and all these big mainstream media organizations operating inside
• 49:49
  Speaker 7: of Israel were reporting exactly what.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: I was reporting.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Now, you might notice a discrepancy here. In the report
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: he published, Jeremy is suggesting that no one has reported
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: on this because of the censors.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: Israel's military censor had barred the media from reporting the
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: locations of the missile strikes.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: And that he and the Gray Zone are bringing you
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the real, uncensored truth. Which may be good for the
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Gray Zone's branding, but it's not entirely the case. Because
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: here he's saying he was aware not just of that
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: PBS NewsHour report, but of other outlets in Israel reporting
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: the story too. Which, if they were reporting, presumably they'd
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: gotten approval from the censor. So you were like, I'm
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: going to go out and do the kind of reporting
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: that I do, and I feel like it's not that risky, basically, because...
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I'm seeing it reported in other international sites.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: Exactly, yes.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Had you run your other reporting through the military censors?
• 50:44
  Speaker 7: I've never gone through the military censor. This is the
• 50:47
  Speaker 7: first time I've ever published something in Israel while I
• 50:50
  Speaker 7: was still in Israel. I always go there and I
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: document things on my camera and I never publish anything
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: while I'm there. And I come back to New York
• 50:59
  Speaker 7: and that's when I put everything together. So this was
• 51:01
  Speaker 7: the first time that I was reporting in Israel and
• 51:03
  Speaker 7: putting it out in real time. I was moving fast
• 51:06
  Speaker 7: and willing to, I didn't take seriously the threat of
• 51:11
  Speaker 7: the state. I could never picture them actually doing anything
• 51:14
  Speaker 7: to me for.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: What I thought.
• 51:16
  Speaker 7: So I put out the video and I even like,
• 51:20
  Speaker 7: I thought to myself, how can I make this better
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: than the video reports I'd already seen on this? I said, well,
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: I could maybe overlay where I was standing with Google
• 51:31
  Speaker 7: Maps and show the viewer or the reader exactly where
• 51:35
  Speaker 7: I was. And it's public information, the Mossad building. You
• 51:41
  Speaker 7: can find it on Google Maps. How about we visualize that?
• 51:44
  Speaker 7: How about I put a circle where the missile landed
• 51:48
  Speaker 7: on top of Google Maps so people can really see
• 51:49
  Speaker 7: where it landed?
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: So I was pushing the envelope. I just was trying
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: to make my video better.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: But now sitting in his cell, it seemed bad.
• 52:01
  Speaker 7: Well, listening to that was scary before I didn't have
• 52:03
  Speaker 7: to defend anything. I wasn't doing anything wrong. But like
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: now this video, they're going to, I don't know what
• 52:07
  Speaker 7: they're going to say. They're going to say something about
• 52:08
  Speaker 7: it was not allowed to be said and I'm going
• 52:10
  Speaker 7: to have to defend it. I yell at myself like,
• 52:13
  Speaker 7: excuse me. And like someone finally comes and I say,
• 52:17
  Speaker 7: why am I still here?
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: And they say, oh, like we have to ask. And
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: then finally the lady appears. I say, what's happening? Why
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: am I still here? What's going on?
• 52:26
  Speaker 7: She says, there's a different protocol for you because like
• 52:28
  Speaker 7: you're a journalist. I said, They were all journalists as well.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: I don't understand.
• 52:34
  Speaker 7: She said, it's a different protocol. You will have your
• 52:37
  Speaker 7: interrogation or you'll talk to your lawyer very soon. So
• 52:41
  Speaker 7: I'm sitting in this holding cell. Maybe now it's midnight.
• 52:45
  Speaker 7: And an officer comes down and says, your lawyer's on
• 52:48
  Speaker 7: the phone.
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: I said, okay. So I went to this office and
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: I answered the phone.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Jeremy says he has no idea who this lawyer who
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: called him is. He doesn't even know her name. which
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: means we weren't able to confirm it beyond Jeremy's account.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: We have only his account for this whole stretch of
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: the story where he's being held alone. The police didn't respond.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: To our requests.
• 53:11
  Speaker 7: And the lawyer says, Mr. Lafredo, I want you to
• 53:15
  Speaker 7: be very honest with me. I want you to be
• 53:18
  Speaker 7: very clear.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: I said, excuse me? They said, what did you do?
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Israeli authorities believe Jeremy was possibly giving information to the
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: enemy during wartime. Jeremy tried to explain.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: It could be this video. She says, what do you
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: mean this video?
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Jeremy says he's in the middle of trying to explain
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: more about the video to his lawyer when the door
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: behind him opens and a soldier comes in, walks over
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: to the desk phone Jeremy's on.
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: And he ends up hitting the thing that makes the
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: phone hang up. So he hangs up the phone.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: What he managed to gather from that call. Jeremy wasn't
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: suspected of being a journalist who was too flagrant with
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the military censors. Jeremy was suspected of espionage.
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: And that the consequences are very grave, very serious.
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: Did they say what the consequences were?
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: Not at that moment, no.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: In the days to come, Jeremy would learn, if convicted
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: of aiding an enemy during wartime, the sentence could be
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: life in prison or the death penalty. We reached out
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: to Israeli Defense Forces, and in a statement they said
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: they did not use verbal or physical violence against Jeremy
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: or the others he was with, except to use, quote,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: reasonable force to remove Andre from the vehicle when, they say,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: he refused to exit to let them search. They said
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: part of the reason they detained Jeremy and the people
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: he was traveling with was because the five of them
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: said they were journalists, but none of them presented a
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: government press office card. I'm Robin Simeon. On our next episode,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: we'll have the second part of our story about Jeremy
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Lofredo and learn more about why Israel chose to arrest him.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Sign up for our Substack at questioneverything.substack.com. This episode was
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: produced by Zach St. Louis and was edited by Joel Lovell.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Our show is made by host Brian Reed, producer Sophie Casis,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: and associate producer Emily Moltare. Jonathan Goldstein, Neil Drumming, and
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Jen Kinney are contributing editors. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins and
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Maggie Duffy. Sound design by Brendan Baker. Music by Matt McGinley.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Brian and I are the executive producers of Question Everything. Today,
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: our team includes managing editor Kevin Sullivan, associate producer Kevin Shepard,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: and fact-checker Marisa Robertson-Textor. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seipel,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Gina Delvac, Tejal Ajmera, and Jennifer Farrow. Special thanks to
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Eviatar Rubin, Yael Evan Orr, Dan Efron, Miki Meek, and
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Laura Starczewski.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.