Latest / The Parent Tap / How to Stop Becoming Roommates After Kids (With a Marriage Therapist)

Transcript

How to Stop Becoming Roommates After Kids (With a Marriage Therapist) · The Parent Tap

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time you and your partner actually felt like partners and not just two people running a shared logistics company for children?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Love isn't a feeling, it's a practice, and a practice can be rebuilt.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're essentially enabling the relationship to become crappy.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't be real with them, who are you going to be real with?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: You've hurt each other so deeply at this point that you have nothing to lose by being honest anymore.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: So act with love first.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Don't wait for the feeling to inspire you.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you something.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time you and your partner actually felt like partners and not just two people running a shared logistics company for children?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I feel like we're roommates has crossed your mind, I want you to stay right here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Stephanie Weiss is a licensed marriage and family therapist who works with couples every day on exactly this: the disconnection, the mental load, the intimacy that fades.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And her take is the most liberating thing we've had on the show.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Love isn't a feeling, it's a practice.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: And a practice can be rebuilt.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hear permissive parenting a lot, but permissive partnering, what is that?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this came up for me.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: This was very recent, like where I was just like thinking about this dynamic that I see so often with partners where there's just sort of this, it's not worth the argument.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not worth the conversation.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna let it go.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my areas of interest is infidelity.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like a lot of the intro, like times when I'm working with couples who've had a one-off instance of infidelity, I talk with them.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I what usually comes up is I find that this is the dynamic that they have before this infidelity occurred, they have just given up on having hard conversations because usually, a lot of times, the conversations either were way too hard, they got way too intense, or they were afraid of what it meant to have hard conversations.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it means we're not as good as we think we are, right?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's usually one of those kind of two things.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's other reasons, right?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: That people turn away from hard conversations.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the result of that, of not having those conflicts, is that you also don't get the connection that comes in the repair and the knowing each other deeper that comes with conflict, where, hey, you might not like this side of me, but I gotta speak up.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not into that thing that you just did, right?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm authentic with you by sharing that with you and giving you an opportunity to grow.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when we're not doing that with our partners, we're essentially enabling the relationship to become crappy.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: The same way we think about permissive parenting, right?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where permissive parenting is like, oh yeah, sure, do whatever you want, do whatever you want, because I don't want to deal with the tantrum, you know, I don't want to deal with it's too hard.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the energy for it.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we, I mean, probably all of us have been that parent from time to time.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know I have occasionally, right?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you're just tired and you're like, yeah, sure, whatever, watch the show.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Doing that right now with my kid, my daughter.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's in a playroom just playing because my wife's working and I'm doing this podcast.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of at a loss.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what else to do at this point.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do her own thing.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's like a piece of things where it's like strategic, and I'm like, hey, I'm using something as a tool here.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm intentionally loosening my boundary.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And in kids, we see really clearly how that's doing them a disservice, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in relationships with our partners, it's doing this huge disservice of you're not being real with your partner, they're not getting the authentic you.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually, you're gonna start to crave authenticity.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not getting it with your partner, you're gonna find it somewhere, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which is how we see that lead to infidelity.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And not saying that that's an excuse at all, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're still responsible for your choices, but I think the real mistake here is turning away from those hard conversations with your partner.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can't be real with them, who are you going to be real with?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and how can you guys bring out the best in each other then, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the beauty of relationships.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: We soften each other's archer edges, we're challenged, and hopefully we're better people because of it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the main culprit for for the infidelity?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I think it's really important to differentiate.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's a really, really big difference between somebody who is a repeat offender, right?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Across relationships or within the same relationship, right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody who is cheating because they don't feel any respect for the people that they're with or the person that they're with and they think it's okay to treat somebody that way.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: That is an entirely different category that, you know, a lot of therapists would say that that's like abusive, right?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's coercive and it's manipulative.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's more than, you know, it's not that you weren't a good enough partner.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's that this person fundamentally did not respect you, right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: However, there's the other type of cheating, right, where it's a one-time indiscretion, a one-time thing.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the difference here is that when it's found out, when the person who's cheating comes out of that fog, they're horrified at what they've done.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: They don't feel okay with it, right?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're genuinely empathetically horrified.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, that's a very different thing.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in that case, right, people are still responsible for their own choices.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're still responsible for the choice to have an affair.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they, but I I but I do think that there are landscapes that make that path seem more attractive, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: If we're thinking of the relationship as a landscape that this happens in, they chose to walk down that path.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was their choice.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: There were other paths, but there is a reason that that one looked so attractive.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And often that is disconnection.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we give up that agency, we give up the opportunity to keep trying to be better for our spouses.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of us aren't, you know, born with naturally wonderful relationship skills.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: We do actually need to work at it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think when I see couples in trouble, it's often because they don't realize that if this is something that matters so much to you, you need to give it the time and energy it deserves to try and become great at it because it's a learnable skill.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've definitely seen it repair happen, genuinely, and seen couples come out of it with a much newer under like a newer and deeper understanding of themselves and each other.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's too late.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I see what I often see, in fact, happen is that couples who come in with just the disconnection piece, who are in denial about something needs to change, that almost can take longer sometimes than when I'm working with a couple who's experienced infidelity.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: That actually can be a shorter repair and a shorter therapy term because nobody is under the illusion that things are bad and we need to do things differently, right?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it kind of like you hit rock bottom and then it's like it's easier than a bounce back up because you there's no like there's nowhere else to go down.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is it kind of like that in layman's terms and non-therapy therapist talk?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think it is like that.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other way of of putting it is like you've hurt each other so deeply at this point that you have nothing to lose by being honest anymore.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you get this opportunity that if you're gonna work on it where it's like, okay, here's my real authentic self.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've already done one of the worst things that a person can do to another person to you.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's no point in trying to hide anymore.
• 6:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it kind of ingested the crisis line, but honestly, I've called them, and every time it's been like this super soothing, helpful voice that just makes you because again, you said you feel alone, and I think that's the biggest mental health issue with men in general, is they don't really know who to go to, and you know, men aren't expected to like lay out all their problems on people, and yeah, you know, and it gets more complicated, I think, too, when we're talking about relationships, and you're you know, you're in the obviously the couples therapy.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I are in couples therapy, and you know, I don't, you know, constant like it's it's tough because I don't want to share too much or delve too much into my issues because I feel like we're always, you know, with two kids in the mix and just the busyness of life, the chaos of, you know, well, we gotta pay this bill or we gotta do this thing.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're just we always seem like we're at each other's throats for some reason.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's always some like literally little, like right before this, there was a little bit of a tiff where my wife was, she was sort of like she works at home, so just just as I do.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of debrief a little bit throughout the day, but she was like, you know, talking about her frustrations with work, and I was just like, Well, at least you have a job.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because like I was laid off in July.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't mean anything like negatively by that, but she got upset.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so just little stuff like that, even just like the misunderstandings or the way we phrase stuff or the way that our gestures, you know what I mean?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of it is just like I infer stuff, like, yeah, like I'll uh like I feel like I can read people and I can read the room and all this and that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I sometimes give myself more credit than I deserve on that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I'm just like, she's giving me like you know, complete she calls it RBF, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like just that face that's just like you're not like something I did is like, yeah, it's it's in your mind and you're mad at me, and I don't know what it is.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try to figure it out.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, long story short, or yeah, long story short, I you know, how does how do couples navigate through that, like the roommate phase or just feeling like things have changed so much?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I have been together almost 20 years at this point, and so obviously things are very different from 20 years ago, you know, through the you know, the butterfly phase of like, oh, you can't wait to see this person, you can't wait till their text comes up on the screen.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: To now it's just like sometimes we literally just don't want to be in the same room as each other.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you how do you you know help couples through that, especially, you know, with the chaos of life?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so funny when you're talking about the way that parenthood changes relationships.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think the thing is, is all relationships sort of fall out of that honeymoon phase into this, okay, we sort of know each other.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to put in as much effort, at least it doesn't seem like it, because we can assume we know some things, right?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's this shift of like when you're entering a relationship of it's almost like a second job where you're getting to know someone and you're putting a lot of effort and energy towards it, and you're intentionally turning towards, right?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Intentionally practicing curiosity, doing all these things with great intention, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then life goes on and you're together for a while, and then all of a sudden you're not doing that anymore because it's just supposed to happen, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us have this idea that it's just supposed to happen naturally.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just know you.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine, you're in my life, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it it seems like it's comforting at first until all of a sudden time goes by and you change a lot, something like kids comes into the picture and you go through massive changes, massive stress.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not intentionally turning towards each other, unfortunately, you're sort of slowly drifting apart.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then we add in the stress of this the constant decision making that comes with parenting, right?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And my goodness, like that's that's hard enough for anybody to even navigate on their own, let alone two people trying to do it together with completely different ideas of what parenting even means, probably, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's always like, how do you handle a situation?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do you discipline?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: How do you give, you know, like like for instance, my kids last night going putting them to bed?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like such a bear.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: One kid's banging for milk, and then the other one is just like she she pulled out all her pull-ups and just like was making a huge mess of her room, and just like I was like, oh my god, like I just was about to lose it.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that was at that point where I was kind of like in and joking beforehand, like, thanks for putting the kids to bed.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of what we do because sometimes we just, you know, it we know that sometimes it can just go haywire.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And last night it did.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and like literally my wife was just like, just go because she knew she could tell I was like getting flustered, and you know, and so she she did it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of step up for each other, but it's just it's it is so hard.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like all the external stress of like, you know, your kids acting up, so we're all agitated, and then we get agitated at each other.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, kids give us lots of joy and lots of good like photo offs and things to share on social media and like all the good stuff, like all the trips that you can kind of plan around them and all the good life events and and and stuff.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: But but yeah, the real day-to-day stuff is is just like such a grind sometimes.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it just man, it just kind of can kill kill your relationship real quick if you don't have somebody like you in your corner to kind of mediate.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a mediate, like a marriage counselor, like she's a good mediator because like I feel like I'm right, she feels like she's right, and it's like I need like a I don't know, judge duty to kind of just like shoot a straight.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me, tell us who is right, like in that situation, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if it's to me real, you know, tell me if I'm being an idiot or whatever.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I appreciate that from therapy.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's the number one issue like that you're I always say mediating and that might not be the right term, but that you're kind of hearing from both sides and then you're kind of having to weigh in on.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the number one issue you think you feel like in these sessions you're you're sort of hearing over and over again?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the number one thing that I see for people is it's it's the struggle to make good assumptions once you've spent so much time investing in a story that your partner's out to get you.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And once you start to give into that story and you start to feed it and look for evidence to confirm it, it's really, really, you know, that that is the thing that keeps people stuck in therapy for years is the difficulty to overcome the temptation to assume the worst and the effort it takes to take a more balanced view and actually be able to give your partner the benefit of the doubt.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's powerful.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I can see how sometimes I don't do that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I probably mischaracterized my wife somehow in this episode.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, and now I'm like, oh my god, she's gonna kill me for saying this or that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm assuming the worst.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing this in in real time, Stephanie.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's probably why I'll be in therapy forever.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because I do, I do have this kind of and it's not even just like a personal thing, but I have this worst-case scenario on life approach.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so obviously marriage falls into everything category.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think yeah, that that your brain is trying to keep you safe.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the thing that I see, you know, people are really actually I I really love people.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I genuinely, you know, you'd think that in my job, maybe I become cynical.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, you know, I think the longer I work with people in this capacity, the more love and deep appreciation I have for people in general, because what I see isn't people who are being mean or bad people.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's genuinely really good people that are afraid and they're trying to protect themselves.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where a lot of that comes from is that they're just afraid and they want to feel safe and they don't know how to feel safe.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels safer to imagine the worst case scenario and pretend you have some control over what happens by rehearsing it almost before it happens.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's the biggest misconception people have about couples therapy?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're I'd say there's two biggest ones and they're contradictory, which is actually very funny to me.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: The one, the first biggest misconception with couples therapy, I would say, is people think that they're gonna go in and you're gonna fix their partner.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they think, just fix them.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'll stay the same, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And now the irony is the other big misconception about couples therapy is that we have to be neutral.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And people hold these side by side, which is so funny because the reality is like good couples therapy, sometimes somebody is contributing more to the problem at hand, and it's my job if I want the relationship to succeed, to be honest about that, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've I'm not always neutral.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of really great couples therapists aren't neutral and probably shouldn't be in reality, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think at the same time, don't expect to come in and for me to just say it's all their fault.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm usually gonna say, Hey, I see behavior A happening, and then behavior B happens from your partner.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And either of you could change the outcome here, but it's on both of you to try, right?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah as much as possible.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I feel that too, because sometimes, like, yeah, the the misconception one was definitely something I went into with like I was like, okay, finally someone's gonna see my my my vantage point and like realize that I'm not the problem.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, like and we kind of joke.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we used to joke about it because we've been a marriage surgery before I don't know, probably since the kids arrived, so five years or so.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we joked about like it was like, oh, you know, who's gonna win today kind of thing, because it's like, you know, we both have our obviously, you know, and they talk, you talk about you do the recap, like what's happened over the last couple weeks, and you know, you kind of bring things up and you're like, ooh, this is gonna be this is gonna play into my case, but now it's more just like that mediator that makes sure that we're just like communicating and then like voicing displeasurement or like you know, like you said, like like I I think it's just calling our shit out sometimes too, like the the misconception too.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like if if I'm doing something wrong, like I wanna know, you know, because sometimes I I feel like I'm I'm so stuck in my own ways and stubborn, and like if I feel something's like just like I'm not gonna see it unless a third party is like there telling me that, like, hey, you know, maybe maybe you need to adjust your tone, Ryan, or or whatever.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my mis biggest misconception, just just to be honest, was like, I don't think we need it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that was where I like really like stalled getting into it, was because I was like under the impression that only people like only people that had those like huge infidelities or like were going through like the last, like kind of a last ditch approach to their marriage needed therapy.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm just like, yeah, I feel like it'd be beneficial for basically anybody.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whether no matter how good your relationship is, because things can happen quick, especially when you have kids that were like, you know, some sometimes I'm like, oh, we don't, you know, whenever I get to the point where I'm like, oh, we don't really need a therapist anymore, like some shit will happen where it's just like, okay, the next day I'm like, I'm like texting her, like, can you get on the, you know, like, can you get on the video call right now?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like we are about to divorce, you know, like there's something like that with a pop-up.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just crazy how the universe works like that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think the piece is too that couples therapy is so valuable because they're sort of like a voice for the relationship itself, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where they're they're the advocate for the relationship itself when you two have forgotten to also advocate for that, right?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think ideally, right, ideally, we hopefully work with people to the point where they're able to internalize that on their own, where they're able to internalize the relationship as like this third entity that needs to be prioritized over you wanting to be right or your partner wanting to be right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: But while you're working towards that, having an actual verbal voice speak for the relationship, for the health of the relationship is so powerful, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because, and that is literally the actual skill that we're trying to teach people in couples therapy is, you know, we want this to be a healthy relationship.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you put the relationship first that you're also a part of, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean sacrifice yourself for your partner.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: That wouldn't be healthy.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: That wouldn't be putting the relationship first because your half of it would be, you know, unwell in that case.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we work on that and advocate for the relationship itself?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we teach you how to do that for yourself?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, big takeaway that I'm always encouraging people to think about is whatever it is you take away from hearing, you know, hearing me talk about relationships, I think try and take away to lead with behavior first, you know, act with love first.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Don't wait for the feeling to inspire you.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you can act loving, you're halfway there already to a better relationship.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So even when it's hard, I think that's what we say when we say marriage takes a little bit of work because sometimes we don't want to act loving to a little bit of work.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a daily thing that sometimes you feel like will come natural, but then you realize it doesn't.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And like anything that's worth having, you gotta put that work and effort into.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Effort, yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Stephanie, can you tell us more about sage and vine counseling, what you provide, how people can contact you and find you on the internet?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Sage and Vine Counseling is my private practice for couples who are working to reconnect, working to get through things like the roommate phase or even through bigger issues like infidelity.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I am licensed in Hawaiian, California for my private practice.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm able to work with residents of either state virtually.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm currently taking new clients.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I like to keep my caseload very low.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So people can look up my website online and find me there.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just want to get to know me more, you can also go check out my Instagram, official stuff wise.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I have, you know, if you're not a resident of those places, or maybe you're looking for something a little bit different where you're like, actually, we really need more coaching.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: We need more like short-term, more collaborative, sort of working on skills piece.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I also offer coaching with special focus on premarital coaching and helping people write their vows, get ready for their wedding.