Latest / The Partial Historians / The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:30 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad. Dr G 1:02 And I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 1:04 Welcome back, everybody! We are getting so very close to the turn of the century. Here, we're edging our way closer and closer with every episode. In fact, I think this episode, we're going to do two years in one episode, I'm just I just have a feeling. Dr G 1:21 Look, I definitely have that feeling. But that might be because I have so many gaps in my source material. Dr Rad 1:28 You're not alone. I don't have much in my particular source material this time. But we're excited to be talking once more about ancient Rome listeners, and what was happening at this particularly interesting time in their history. Dr G 1:43 It is 405 BCE. And that's where we'll, that's where we'll be starting out in this. Dr Rad 1:50 But before we do that, Dr. G, I think we need to do a bit of a recap, because the last year was pretty significant. Dr G 1:58 It was, but I'll level with you. I can't really remember. But I think that's my source material. Dr Rad 2:04 That's the best way to remember that something was important! Dr G 2:08 It was all about the vibe. Wasn't it? Dr Rad 2:10 Okay. So whilst there are, obviously, you know, some questions that we had, if we're going to believe the account that we have from Livy, who is our major narrative source at this point for ancient Roman history, it was the year that military pay was introduced. That's what we were talking about last time. Finally, there was an actual kind of more or less state funded military pay that was introduced in the previous episode, and everyone lost their collective minds. Dr G 2:43 They did, because we also have what amounts to a dual or triple military sort of pronged situation where the Volscii are causing an issue. The Aequians might be also a problem. And then there's also the issue with Veii. Dr Rad 2:58 Yes, the Etruscans once again, rearing their ugly heads in the north. Dr G 3:04 And I think we should put a big asterisk next to soldiers pay, because this seems to be in at best, maybe a one off payment for some difficult conditions being faced, and potentially the need to overwinter in a location rather than return home, stay warm at home and nice and cozy, and then go back out in springtime, which is the usual way that Roman campaigning seems to have operated. Dr Rad 3:32 Yes, this is a chilly money situation. It may not even be money - Dr G 3:37 Show me that cold hard cash! Dr Rad 3:39 Yeah because I will be cold. Yeah, no. It might not even be money. Obviously, it might be goods of some kind, obviously, food, food resources, food related resources. Dr G 3:52 Nevertheless, it might set an exciting precedent for what soldiers might expect in the future. Dr Rad 3:58 Oh, absolutely. As hard as we know, it's always hard to put a genie back in a bottle, Dr G. So whilst there are a lot of questions about how are they getting paid? Why were they getting paid? Were they even getting paid? Livy tells us that they were and that they were just so excited about the idea. And of course, the only people that were holding back a little bit were the tribune of the plebs. They were suspicious from the get go. Dr G 4:27 Probably rightly, so. I'll give them that. Dr Rad 4:29 Yeah, and that's because we kind of started out 406 last episode with this conflict with they starting to rev up. But nobody really having the enthusiasm or the energy to go and deal with it because they were already, as you say, fighting other enemies and dealing with other issues, and they were just kind of over it. But this whole military pay scenario and the way that the patricians handled it in particular, has really won them over and they're so excited that the Romans were able to declare war on they and have basically like a full volunteer army like there's no talk about the levy and that sort of thing. Ready to go. Dr G 5:10 People are like, 'Payment? Sign me up, I'm in.' Dr Rad 5:12 Oh, absolutely they were like, 'Hell yeah. Because, if you're going to pay me, I'm absolutely there.' Dr G 5:17 Wait a minute. Dr Rad 5:19 Yeah. I mean that to be fair, that's that's kind of my line as well. Dr G 5:23 Fair enough. Yeah. All right. So that means it is time to turn our attention to 405 BCE. Dr Rad 5:31 Certainly is. All right, Dr. G. Now, I know that Dionysius has left you after some creative differences. Dr G 6:09 We disagreed on whether he should leave his fragments behind for posterity and he just absolutely refused. Dr Rad 6:16 I know that you probably know who the magistrates are, at least, so thanks to Broughton. Dr G 6:23 Ah, dear Broughton, where would I be without Broughton's superior work? So apparently, and things are starting to feel a little chaotic from a magisterial perspective. Because apparently, we have six military tributes with consular power for the year 405, which is a lot, maybe too many. And so I'm going to give you a whole list of Latin names and everybody listening - and us - are going to feel slightly bad. Get ready for it. Get ready for it, because none of these names actually mean anything. Because I have no other source material. So I don't know what sort of weight to give them. Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus Dr Rad 7:05 Familiar, familiar Dr G 7:07 Previously consul in 421. So must be getting on a little bit now. Dr Rad 7:12 I was going to say the Quinctii are definitely a family that we know well. Dr G 7:17 They are. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus who previously military tribunes with consular power in 415. So two Quinctii already Dr Rad 7:29 And not the famous Cincinnatus. This would be someone from that branch. Dr G 7:35 Yeah, we're done with famous Cincinatii for now. Dr Rad 7:38 Yeah, he's dead. Yeah. Dr G 7:40 He's gone. Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus Dr Rad 7:44 Ooo a Iulii. Dr G 7:48 Indeed. And a recent military tribute and as well from 408. Dr Rad 7:53 True, very true. Dr G 7:56 Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus Ahhh the manly Manlii. Watch out for this guy. He's on the up and up. Lucius Furius Medullinus. Dr Rad 8:11 Excellent. Gotta have some Furii in there. Dr G 8:13 You certainly do, and a very illustrious one as well. So he was previously consul in 413, and 409. And also military tribune with consular power in 407. And is in the middle of a career, so he's going to come up again and again. And finally, we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus, or Mamercus? There seems to be some confusion. Dr Rad 8:40 There always is with this guy. Dr G 8:43 This guy, yeah. Consul in 410. And we'll also have some future since as well coming up. So some pretty familiar names, I would say, I don't think anybody sort of stands out as being really unusual here, except maybe Vulso Capitolinus. But yeah, there's just a lot of them, which suggests that Rome has got a lot of military issues where they want commanders in the field. Dr Rad 9:12 I think that's how we should probably read this, given what we know is happening in the background. But it's also really interesting to say this, because it's really like a who's who of the famous gens - the clans - of ancient Rome at this point in time. These are these are families that have just come up again and again. Dr G 9:29 Yeah, they're all the big families. All of them have had previous positions. None of them are new families to these kinds of roles. So we've got a sense in which there is an elite that has really established itself over the course of this first century of the early republic, as far as our records take us. And we have to admit that they're kind of sketchy, I guess. So. Yeah. For instance, the Fasti Capitolini is the big inscription that we tend to refer to to get these names from initial late, but we understand that the Fasti Capitolini was a late creation. Dr Rad 10:06 Yes, exactly. Dr G 10:07 And we're not sure what documentation it was necessarily leveraged from? Was it from linen scrolls? Or is it from other inscriptions? Was it from family oral histories? So, I mean, the big questions are still there to be asked what is going on? And I feel like Livy is going to have the answers. Dr Rad 10:26 Well, look, we do have a fairly big event for this year, but not a lot of detail at the moment. Okay, we're gonna have a banner year in 403. 405 and 404 are important just for the build up towards that point. So basically, what Livy tells me is that we've got all these different military tribunes and these are the guys that start the siege of they the first siege of Veii, so Veii being this Etruscan city that Rome has particular beef with probably because geographically, they just come into contact a lot more than some of the other Etruscan city. So they start this siege, not long after the beginning of the sage, the Etruscans come together to have one of their federal meetings. Now, just a refresher, in case you have forgotten, the Etruscans not all ruled by you know, like one major city or one person or even one group of people. As far as we can see a trust can share, you know, kind of like a cultural, linguistic connection with each other. But, you know, they can come together and unite. But there are 12 major cities that kind of form the basis of Etruria to the north of Rome. Dr G 11:53 Yeah, so they tend to have what we think are 12 kings, so 12 regal representatives. And in a way you can think of Rome having gone through a similar kind of process, with having a king very localized the king of the place. Yes, and what Etruria has done is to sort of harness that kind of leadership into a broad coalition. Dr Rad 12:15 Exactly. Yeah. Dr G 12:16 And you might see this as similar to the what the Latin people were also doing. So we know that Alba Longa, up in the mountains to the south east of Rome had a king, for instance. So this idea of really localized magisterial power is not new for the whole Italian Peninsula. But the way the Etruscans are able to harness it into a coalition does seem to be a little bit more fruitful for them than it is for other groups within Italy. Dr Rad 12:45 Yes, exactly. And we have talked about them having these group meetings before, so I kind of like to think of them as being like Power Rangers. They come together, and they discuss, 'Is it morphing time? Is it?' So in this particular instance, we know that over the past sort of, you know, 50 years in particular, there have been some pretty epic clashes between they and drone. And we know there have been instances where the Etruscans have come together to talk about how involve everyone else should get in these clashes between their environment. This is again, one of those moments, where they meet at this place called the shrine of Voltumna. So again, we've mentioned this place before, when we've talked about these meetings, it seems to be their favorite hang. It's their Central Perk, if you will. Now, you're probably going to ask me, Dr. G. Where is this shrine? I cannot tell you. Dr G 13:41 Oh, no, come on. Dr Rad 13:43 I know. So we don't know an awful lot about either the goddess Voltumna, who is associated with this particular shrine, we know she's a very early Etruscan goddess, we know that there seems to be some sort of connection between her and the Volsinii or the Volscini. So presumably, somewhere in their region, their part of the world, but we really have no firm idea of where this particular shrine was. And we don't know an awful lot about her as a goddess, we just know that this is obviously an important place for the Etruscans to come together and it gets mentioned a few times. Dr G 14:23 All right, so they get together this shrine of Voltumna, goddess of the unknown, to see about what they're gonna do. Sounds exciting so far. Dr Rad 14:33 Yes, exactly. So there's heaps of people at this meeting as they're discussing whether they should get involved and make this a wider Etruscan versus Rome showdown, or whether they should just let they deal with it themselves. Dr G 14:47 Do we come together and grind Rome under the Etrurian heel? Or do we just let they try to navigate this situation? Dr Rad 14:55 Well, we can probably understand why they're a little bit should we because lest we forget this all apparently started because the people have they suddenly were very rude to. And so maybe the dress codes don't want to go to war because the people have a had bad manners. Dr G 15:16 And that should never be rewarded. Dr Rad 15:18 Exactly, exactly. So they're very unsure. They're going backwards and forwards and they're, they're really not sure what they want to do. Meanwhile, the siege that the Romans have started against Veii doesn't really go anywhere, because some of the military tribunes as well as a portion of the Roman forces had to go and leave to deal with the Volscians. And it was like, 'Come on, Volscians we're sieging here, we're sieging here!' Dr G 15:46 Oh, Rome, nothing is gonna let down a siege more than moving your troops away from the siege position. Dr Rad 15:53 It is siege rules of warfare 101. And that's really all I've got for 405, Dr. G. Dr G 16:03 Intriguing. Okay. Now, the things that I do have for 405 do not pertain to Rome in any way, shape, or form. I have Diodorus Siculus. Dr Rad 16:14 Oh, okay. Dr G 16:15 And as we know, he's a little bit untrustworthy at times, but he's trying to do a universal history of the Mediterranean. And Rome isn't where it's at right now. He knows that, the Romans don't. And so he generally speaking doesn't have a lot to say about them. But he does have some things to say about the unfolding situation in Sicily, and what's going on with the Carthaginians. Because Sicily has on the eastern coast of Sicily, it is now under the control of a tyrant called Dionysius. And that's fine, clearly a Greek. But he now wants to take the war to Carthage. Now the Greeks and the Carthaginians have been squabbling over Sicily for a while. And that's fine. But now we start to learn more about this tyrants character, right. And he's not just willing to take Carthage on, he wants to sort of launch an offensive rather than waiting for the Carthaginians to come to Sicily, he's like that, we got to take the fight to that. And then he's like, 'how am I going to raise the morale of my people in order to bring this about?' And so he gets down in the trenches, basically, and starts putting in the hard yards to help build defensive walls. And to put in the work required just in case the Carthaginians do turn up before he's able to do the offensive. So there's a sense in which he's building his charismatic profile as a Greek tyrant in Sicily, and the people like he's out in the field, he's building a wall. Look at those, Look at those well oiled arms. Dr Rad 17:53 Now, we should just say that generally people shouldn't feel excited about a political leader building a wall. Dr G 18:01 I wouldn't recommend it generally. Dr Rad 18:02 No, no, it's very different in ancient times. Dr G 18:05 In ancient times, the wall is a pretty good idea. In modern times, I wouldn't, I'm not on the side of the wall. But nevertheless, he seems to recruit this reputation for one being willing to be part of the building process, which I can't foresee in this modern period ever really quite happening. But yeah, that's it. That's all I've got. I did not know about the shrine of Voltumna, although I'm going to look her up because that sounds really interesting to me. Dr Rad 18:36 Definitely. Dr G 18:38 And that's it, there's nothing going on. There's nothing going on. Dr Rad 18:41 There's nothing going on apart from a siege that has stalled and presumably, we've got some more conflict with the Volscii on the horizon, so let's transition into 404 BCE. So Dr. G, do we have as many military tribunes with consular power for 404 as we did for 405? Dr G 19:29 Oh, Look, it's a mess. There's six more military tribunes with consular power. And again, I don't have heaps of detail to give you but I mean, I do have slightly more than I had last year. So it's good news. But like let's get through this epic list of names. We have Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus consul of 410, military tribune with consular power in 415. Manius Sergius Fidenas: we're not sure about his exact name. So Livy apparently has Marcus as the praenomen. But the Fasti Capitolini lists the abbreviation M with the apostrophe, which is Manius. So there could be some discrepancies there in our source material. We have Publius Cornelius Maluginensis. Dr Rad 20:25 Oh that's a horrible name. Maluginensis. Dr G 20:30 Maluginensis. Hmmm, yeah. When and we're not really quite sure how this particular Cornelii fits into the broad again structure, either. Not really. It's a bit of doubt about where this figure fits in. Nevertheless, we have a Cornelii in here. We have a second Cornelii in Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus, Dr Rad 20:53 Ah one of the Cossii. Dr G 20:54 Yeah, and very familiar as well, was military tribune in 406. Dr Rad 20:59 Yes, yes. Dr G 21:01 Then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Dr Rad 21:04 Ooo a fabulous Fabian. Dr G 21:05 Yeah, so fabulous Fabian, and they still seem to be some discrepancy about the praenomen of this guy as well. Some people see it as Gaius. So that would be the C abbreviation. And sometimes it's the K abbreviation for Kaeso. Dr Rad 21:25 That is unusual. Dr G 21:27 It is unusual. And it means that we might actually be dealing with two different people, right? Is this Kaeso? Or is this Gaius? Later on we're going to have somebody with a very similar name, but a different praenomen. And so we're not sure two people, maybe one person with two heads. Dr Rad 21:44 One of these is just like the other. Dr G 21:49 And lastly, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, who was consul in 411 and military tribune with consular power in 419 and 416. So a lot of a lot of names. But what is going on? Dr Rad 22:06 I know, I know, it's a lot. Okay. So there is definitely some military action in 404. Let's start with the Volscians because of course, they had to interrupt this seige against Veii to go and deal with them. So there was a big pitched battle with the Volscians between Ferentium and Ecetra, et cetera, et cetera. Dr G 22:30 Okay. Dr Rad 22:31 And the Romans were victorious. Dr G 22:35 Intriguing. Dr Rad 22:37 I know they've been doing pretty well against the Volscians of late. The tribunes then decided they were going to besiege a Volscian town, one Artena. Dr G 22:49 Ah, yes, now I do have some details on Artena. Dr Rad 22:52 Excellent. Dr G 22:55 Now, unfortunately, it is one of these places, like so many in the ancient world, where we do not know the location of it. But there is a modern town called Artena, which is about 40 kilometers south east of Rome. Dr Rad 23:11 Okay, that sounds kind of about right. Dr G 23:14 It sounds kind of about right. Yeah. And the reason it sounds kind of about right, is because that this place changed its name in the 1870s, based on the theory that it was the location of the ancient Volscian town. So this town was known as Montefortino for many years. So a completely different name. Dr Rad 23:38 Oh, I actually have heard of that place. I have no idea why. But I have, yeah. Dr G 23:42 And they got this idea that maybe it was the location of the ancient Artena. So then they changed their whole town's name to reflect that. So it's a bit of a furphy because we're still not sure. Dr Rad 23:56 Well, that's confidence. Yeah. Dr G 23:59 And it's also the case that this modern town of Artena is also speculated to be one of the potential locations for the Volscian city of Ecetra. Dr Rad 24:09 Right. Okay. Dr G 24:10 So, we don't - to add confusion into the mix. The geography is all over the place. Dr Rad 24:18 Yeah. That seems to be the theme that we're talking about places that we don't know where they are. All right, so the Romans do this by doing a bit of a sortie against Artena. This this place that apparently does not exist. The Volscians were therefore driven all the way back into the city by the Romans, the Romans were able to penetrate the city and they were able to capture everything except the citadel of Artena. Dr G 24:50 Wow, okay. That's pretty devastating for the Volscii, I would say. Dr Rad 24:54 It is, but it does mean that it's not quite the complete victory that the Romans would want. They've got A bunch of warriors that are holed up in the citadel. So the Romans have to then besieged the citadel. Dr G 25:06 Oh, no! Dr Rad 25:08 I know no matter what they tried Dr. G, they just could not win. The people inside. I mean, what's, what's their motivation, I suppose for giving up at this point in time, they're not going to surrender, they're going to stay there until the end, they had very cleverly move the town's green supply inside the citadel before the Romans had arrived. So they're also not going to starve to death super quickly, apparently. Dr G 25:37 Okay, this spells bad news for Rome. Not only do they have their ongoing yet kind of failing siege with Veii, they're now in a situation where they're trying to besiege somewhere else, which has got a really clear food supply. And when we're thinking about the ancient world, I think we have to keep in mind that food supply and food security is a really big concern. Dr Rad 26:02 Absolutely. Dr G 26:03 So I think in our modern age of like, hyper convenience and food availability, that we don't tend to think about this in terms of the the worry and concern and the ongoing engagement with food supply, that would have been part and parcel of the ancient world. Dr Rad 26:22 Definitely. But I mean, I think the interesting thing is, as we often talk about that, that will probably change. Climate change is going to affect what we can grow, where we can grow it, I mean, it already I shouldn't say is going to affect it is already affecting our ability to grow things. Like for example, if you're a fan of wine, I know that there are certain regions in the world that have had to change the types of grapes that they use, because the previous types of grapes can't grow in the warmer climates that now exists. But eventually, you know, it's going to get too warm to grow things anyway. So it's just going to be one of those things that we are going to have to I think engage with because, yeah, it is going to become part of our reality. And that's also applies to things like the damaging fishing practices that we use are damaging agricultural practices that we use. We have at the moment, sure, plenty of food in certain parts of the world. But that's not going to remain the case unless we start paying more attention to where our food comes from and how it is produced. Dr G 27:21 Indeed, exactly. I echo your sentiments. Dr Rad 27:26 Anyway, to return to this particular citadel with its grain supply. So the Romans obviously wanted to capture this place, lock, stock and barrel. They don't want to give up with a citadel. You know, still being held on to that's not going to be the victory that they're after. So they're in a terrible mood, because they're like, 'God, dammit, we've done so well up until this point. The citadel is just a thorn in our side.' But then a slave betrayed the people inside the citadel. Dr G 27:59 *Gasp* how dare they? Dr Rad 28:01 I feel like we've had stories a bit like this before doesn't mean that they're not true. Obviously, it makes sense that things would play out in this way, but... It is a bit of a literary trope as well, isn't it? It is it is. Yeah. So the slave apparently allowed some of the Roman soldiers inside by showing them Sure, a more difficult, steeper approach, but like an alternative route that they weren't perhaps aware of, or thought that they could use because it was a little bit more challenging. And so as a result, the Romans were able to capture the citadel, they killed all of the sentries, and the rest of the people obviously, who were left inside the citadel, were just so freaked out that the Romans suddenly appear in their midst that they surrender without too much more of a fight. Dr G 28:47 Wow. Okay, so the slave's like, 'So if you're partial to being a bit of a mountain goat, yeah, I can show you the secret entry.' Dr Rad 28:56 Exactly. I thought. Yeah, so this is obviously good news for the Romans. Perhaps this next bit explains why we aren't entirely sure where Artena is because the Romans apparently demolish the entire town, paying particularly close attention to the pesky citadel in the process. Dr G 29:16 Well, well, well, somebody needs to write a stern letter to modern Artena and be like, 'Excuse me, you were destroyed.' Dr Rad 29:24 Exactly. Yeah, the Romans were so annoyed by that whole situation that they tore it apart brick by brick. Dr G 29:31 Fair enough. Dr Rad 29:32 So with that done, the Romans feel like they can officially leave Volscian territory and they can now fully dedicate themselves to this conflict with Veii. Dr G 29:44 All right, okay, so the siege is back on. Dr Rad 29:47 Well, I don't know that this siege was ever off. It was more just said it was maybe it wasn't getting all their attention and taking on they you know, the Romans know that they're not a pushover, so they they probably need to throw everything they've got at it, you know? Dr G 30:02 Yeah. And Veii seems to be in a pretty defensive position, it sort of jumps out on a bit of a ledge. So it's not like it's an easy place to just rock up and take, you're definitely going to have to spend some time figuring out how to take it. Dr Rad 30:18 Yes, exactly. Now, as for our slave who helped the Romans to achieve this victory, they were apparently, I should say, he was apparently given his freedom, and given the name Servilius Romanus, plus the property of two families as a reward for his betrayal. Dr G 30:41 Oh, how strange. Dr Rad 30:43 I know, I know. This is kind of an interesting little naming thing for us. Because that name, it's obviously trying to make us try to give him a name so that he would fit in with the kids on the playground, you know, he's got like a Latin name. But it is obviously signaling something about where he came from. In theory. Now, there's, as we know, there's huge amounts of discussion about the name Servilius, because one of the kings of Rome had that same name. And we know it doesn't necessarily mean that you were a slave. Dr G 31:17 But there are a hints, like, it's that sort of thing where it's like, you've got a like a little bit of a rhyme, you've got like a sound connection. So you might be able to say, strictly speaking, doesn't mean that they're a slave. But when you say their name, everybody's gonna think it. Dr Rad 31:34 Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it might be indicating something about the origin. You know, like, not everybody in the family obviously, is a slave. But it might be saying something about where the fame the family came from. So this particular name, Servilius, Romanus that's giving a fairly clear idea of what this guy's origins were. Dr G 31:53 Like, 'Sure, you can stay with us and be free. What we're going to call you though, is a slave of Rome.' Dr Rad 31:58 Yes, exactly. Dr G 32:00 That's your name. Dr Rad 32:01 That's your name now. Yeah, exactly. Dr G 32:03 Like, 'Oh, gee, thanks, guys. I feel so free.' Dr Rad 32:07 Now, there is a bit of discussion, actually, in Livy himself about the confusion about Artena and its location. Dr G 32:15 Okay, well, that does not surprise me at all. Dr Rad 32:18 Yeah, so apparently, some people thought that Artena was actually part of Veii's territory, not Volscian territory. Dr G 32:26 That would be awkward for the people who have named their modern town Artena. Dr Rad 32:32 I know, Livy, however, does not believe this, because whilst there was a city, more towards the north that had the same name, it was apparently demolish under the Roman kings. Dr G 32:47 Okay, well, that's even more unusual. Dr Rad 32:51 I know. I know. So there's just a huge amount of confusion about this particular place. Some scholars have even suggested that maybe it shouldn't be ARtena, but ORtena? Dr G 33:02 Wow. I'm not gonna wait into that debate. OR not maybe. Dr Rad 33:09 Yeah, exactly. I think we can just safely say, nobody has any idea where this is. We simply do not have the evidence. No, but I think it does make sense that, you know, this is a little Volscian conflict. You know, it makes sense that wherever they were fighting, it was the Volscians they were fighting at this point in time. Dr G 33:30 And also that sense in which Rome's forces are split. So they're trying to do things on a number of different places. And that means that their chances of success in any place is compromised, because their forces are stretched thin. Dr Rad 33:48 Yes, exactly. Now, that kind of wraps up for for, for me, they both pretty brief years, we can start 403 if you would like and it's a pretty monster year. Dr G 34:00 I think we should save 403. Dr Rad 34:02 Okay. Dr G 34:03 Because it is it is an epic time to embark upon. And I think the I want to savour that. Dr Rad 34:12 Fair enough. That's fair. No, it is going to be a bit of a gigantic year, I think but definitely Dr G 34:16 Foreshadowing, foreshadowing Dr Rad 34:17 For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think we can say by the sudden increase in the amount of military tribunes with consular power, we can see what's happening for Rome at this point in time. Dr G 34:28 So the only other detail I have to add to any of this is that Diodorus Siculus does hint that there is an increase in the number of colonists that Rome sends to a city called Velitrae. Dr Rad 34:43 Oh, okay. We did we have talked about Velitrae, yeah. Dr G 34:46 Yeah, so this is a Latin city. It's in the southern foothills of the Albian Hills, which are the ones just just to the southeast of Rome. You can see them from the city and this means that maybe trying to like, establish a greater foothold in that area. It's not at all clear why they would be doing that, at this stage, particularly when they've got forces stretched over a number of different battle fronts. But nevertheless, this is a little detail that we're given. So Velitrae is part of the broader Latin league in 498. And then then it's conquered by the Romans in 494. And from that point onwards, it's a Roman colony, apparently. So even though there's some tussles and disputes they seem to be trying to reinforce an area, which is a little bit closer to Volscian territory, as well, potentially. Dr Rad 35:41 I remembered reading about that. And I just suddenly thought, Oh, my God, like, it's just one of those things where it's a timing that's out, but I thought I was just quickly sneakily trying to, to check it. But Dr G 35:52 Look, there doesn't seem to be - it's not adding to the narrative, particularly because I don't know what, like I don't have any sort of the puzzle pieces of like Livy's narrative to hook this into. This is something that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, he might be off by a couple of years, that's possible as well. But he does also name a whole bunch of the military tribunes for this year, and he gets most of them right. Dr Rad 36:15 Well, yeah. And it does make sense because we know that Rome is suddenly becoming much more aggressive and expansionist, and they are, they are establishing more colonies and that sort of thing at this point in time and more control, sometimes, you know, they capture it, and then they lose it fairly quickly, again, but certainly the intention of not just focusing on their internal problems and defending themselves. They're definitely trying to build something here. Definitely. Dr G 36:43 Exactly. All right. So that's - what - 405 and 404. Dr Rad 36:48 That is 405 and 404, which means, Dr. G., it is time for the Partial Pick! Dr G 37:01 The Partial Pick. So Rome has the possibility of gaining a maximum of 50, golden eagles. They are rated across five categories with 10 each. Let's see how they do. Dr Rad 37:17 Let's see indeed. So what's our first category Dr. G? Dr G 37:21 Military clout. Dr Rad 37:23 Okay, not so great in 405. But there's some stuff happening in 404. Dr G 37:30 I feel like they kind of balance each other out. It's not like they're successful of their seige of Veii. We know that's going to continue on for a long time. Dr Rad 37:38 That's gonna take a while. Yeah, yeah. Dr G 37:41 And they are eventually successful in Artena. Dr Rad 37:44 They are. Dr G 37:45 So... Dr Rad 37:46 Artena seems to be fairly easy. It's just a citadel that takes them a little bit of work. And even then it doesn't seem like that much effort. Dr G 37:54 Yeah, like, once they know the secret path. They're all good. Dr Rad 37:56 Exactly. So, look. Ahhh but I didn't know what as you say, I don't know what a big deal Artena is. Certainly the fact that they raze it to the ground, they're sending a pretty clear message. Dr G 38:07 It is, I probably give them maybe a four. Like it's a pretty big thing to take something and then raze it to the ground. That doesn't seem to be the Roman way very much in this period. They tend to take things and then leave again. Or they tend to take things and then put colonists in and hope for the best. Dr Rad 38:24 This is true, but four? I mean, come on. That's a failing mark, Dr. G. I think we gotta give them a six, surely? Dr G 38:30 Well, it's not like they're really winning. I don't even know where this place is. Dr Rad 38:37 That's because they razed it to the ground! No, I think it has to be a six. They did capture this place and they were also successful in the other battle. Dr G 38:46 All right. I will I think we need to be careful here because if I let you have a six, I won't negotiate later on a low score. Dr Rad 38:51 Okay, that's fine. I just feel like this one. This one needs to be a six, I think. Dr G 38:57 All right. All right. Dr Rad 38:58 Okay. I, I appreciate the six. Dr G 39:03 Our second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 39:07 Okay. Well, yeah, not a lot of that going on with warfare on pretty much every front. Dr G 39:13 Yeah, I mean, can you consider their discussion with Servilius Romanus as a negotiation? I think it's a defection. Dr Rad 39:23 It is. It's definitely that yeah, no, I think that there's no diplomacy to be had. I mean, we this would this wouldn't be points for the Romans, we definitely see the Etruscans practicing some diplomacy, but I don't think that right, we should get the score for them having a meeting. Dr G 39:38 We're gonna have to change the whole Partial Pick, when Rome has like substantial enemies who are doing better than them. Dr Rad 39:44 Yeah, exactly. Dr G 39:44 We'll come back to that. So zero. Dr Rad 39:46 Okay. Dr G 39:47 All right. The third category is expansion. Dr Rad 39:51 Well, as you say, like I'm willing to say that this could be a lower score because there's no mention made of what they do with this Volscian city that they raze to the ground, it doesn't seem like they have any interest in holding it. Dr G 40:09 So they don't seem to be including it as part of their territory... Dr Rad 40:13 No... Dr G 40:14 if they're raising it to the ground, they kind of just getting rid of it and being done with it. Dr Rad 40:17 Yeah. Dr G 40:18 Having said that they send more colonists to Velitrae Dr Rad 40:21 If Diodorus Siculus is to be believed. Dr G 40:24 Well, how many options do I have up my sleeve? Dr Rad 40:28 I agree. Okay, so maybe what like a two or three? Dr G 40:33 Well, look, maybe a one. Look, let's face it. They already had Velitrae. Dr Rad 40:37 Right. Yeah. True. Dr G 40:38 They said you're just adding people to it. Maybe if we believe Diodorus. Dr Rad 40:42 Okay, one. Dr G 40:45 Okay. The fourth category is Virtus. Dr Rad 40:49 Okay, not really, we don't I mean, for all the military tributes with consular power that we have none of them mentioned by name apart from when they actually get the position. Dr G 41:01 Yeah, none of them are coming through a standout characters who have led the charge lead the sage broken into the citadel, gained the glory gotten the triumph. Dr Rad 41:12 I know. Dr G 41:13 Livy's letting us down. There must be a real gap in his source material as well, at this point. Dr Rad 41:17 Yeah, well, and I feel that the next year is going to be a big one for personalities. So maybe he's saving himself. Dr G 41:26 Alright, so zero on virtus. Dr Rad 41:29 Yep. Dr G 41:29 And our final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 41:34 Very little detail on this front. Dr. G. I mean, they're away at war, which they're either winning or not losing. So, I don't know. Dr G 41:44 Wow. Dr Rad 41:47 They're still perhaps feeling pretty pleased with themselves for this whole military pay situation, but... Dr G 41:53 This is true, but we can't judge the citizens on their past efforts, really. Dr Rad 42:00 No, I know. It's an awkward one. Dr G 42:02 I think we don't know enough to really give them a score. So that's, in a way, this is not Rome's fault. We because we just simply don't know. It's not like there's any detail coming through of a conflict of the orders, or a levy, or citizens falling a battle or poor strategic decisions being made that leads to the loss of life. Dr Rad 42:23 This is true, this is true. I mean - Dr G 42:25 We don't have anything, Dr Rad 42:26 We have the victory. And we have the fact that they capture the city and everything inside it, which presumably means there's some booty to be had. But even then there's no specific mentions. I don't know how we want to handle that. Dr G 42:40 Well, I would definitely be taking the grain out of Artena, that citadel so that's going to be a win. Dr Rad 42:46 Yes, exactly. That's what I need. But where's it going? Like who's getting it? They dividing it up amongst the men, Dr. G? Dr G 42:53 Hmm, these are the things that we cannot account for. And I think by that kind of standard, if we want to be really generous, we could assume that those things are benefiting the citizens, in which case we might give them a two or something. Dr Rad 43:06 Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I'm happy to give them a two. All right. All right. So Dr. G, unfortunately, that means Rome, not doing so hot. They get a grand total of 9 out of 50 golden eagles. Dr G 43:22 A solid loss. Dr Rad 43:26 Not looking great, but next year will definitely be interesting, I think. So we'll have to see. Dr G 43:29 I suspect they might be on the up and up. Dr Rad 43:33 There's definitely going to be some action around they the question of Veii, yes. Dr G 43:41 I'm looking forward to finding out what's coming up in 403. Dr Rad 43:45 I'll see you then. Dr G 43:54 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time if you're keen to chip in. You can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, 'Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome' at partialhistorians.com. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai