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Book Club: Darksaber · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello there, Welcome to the Nerd Party. Hi. This is
0:06
Speaker 1: nicko Ostasium, lead editor and writer on Mall shadow Lord,
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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:20
Speaker 2: Welcome to a very special episode of Aggressive Negotiations, your
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Speaker 2: Star Wars podcast on the Nerd Party network that explores
0:29
Speaker 2: the nooks and crannies of the English muffin that is
0:32
Speaker 2: the Star Wars galaxy. I am one of your humble hosts,
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Speaker 2: Jedi Master John Mills, and with me is the non humble,
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Speaker 2: in fact, the braggadocius Jedi Master, Matthew Rushing. Matt, are
0:44
Speaker 2: you ready to talk about some classic literature today?
0:50
Speaker 1: I am now all right.
0:52
Speaker 2: Matt has his trustee book reading beverage with him and
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Speaker 2: this is sort of a summer reading series, I would say,
0:58
Speaker 2: where we are looking back at a choice piece of
1:02
Speaker 2: Star Wars material from the nineteen nineties, from the beloved
1:05
Speaker 2: expanded universe that so many fans online still have not
1:09
Speaker 2: let go of. And I am going to say before
1:12
Speaker 2: we start talking about this, please be sure we love
1:14
Speaker 2: to read more than books.
1:16
Speaker 1: Your reviews over.
1:17
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, go ahead and leave us one over there
1:21
Speaker 2: along with the star rating. We would appreciate it. And
1:23
Speaker 2: you can find us on the socials at the Jedi
1:27
Speaker 2: Masters and also as part of the network at Joint
1:29
Speaker 2: Nerd Party and of course the Nerd Party on Facebook
1:32
Speaker 2: and Instagram. So, Matt, here we are nineteen ninety five's
1:38
Speaker 2: Dark Saber by Kevin J. Anderson, hard on the heels
1:42
Speaker 2: of his success with the Jedi Academy trilogy, where that
1:47
Speaker 2: was a best selling series, introduced us to Kip Duran,
1:50
Speaker 2: and also the establishment of Luke's Temple on You Havevin four.
1:55
Speaker 2: All of these things actually reference to x R Kuhn,
1:59
Speaker 2: who was from the further tying those universes together, all
2:03
Speaker 2: of these great.
2:04
Speaker 1: Things that are going on.
2:06
Speaker 2: And so he comes back following the success of Children
2:10
Speaker 2: of the Jedi by Barbara Hambley, which introduced us to Callista,
2:14
Speaker 2: who was great love. It was a successful book listen
2:21
Speaker 2: Bantam had nothing but best sellers in the nineties, it seemed,
2:25
Speaker 2: and the Star Wars series was just absolutely a licensed
2:29
Speaker 2: to print cash for that publisher. So whether or not
2:33
Speaker 2: I liked Children of the Jedi is irrelevant. I actually
2:35
Speaker 2: hardly remember it. I remember some of it, but it
2:38
Speaker 2: was a success, and Dark Saber follows that up, and
2:42
Speaker 2: I just got to ask, you, did you read this
2:45
Speaker 2: like you're too young to have been reading this in
2:47
Speaker 2: the nineties, right, Oh?
2:48
Speaker 3: No, I was absolutely reading these things. I'm John Okay,
2:52
Speaker 3: I think I've told this story before, but I mean,
2:54
Speaker 3: I just clearly remember when the EU began and walking
3:01
Speaker 3: past the Walden books, It's clearly indelibly in my mind.
3:05
Speaker 3: I could never get it out, and realizing there was
3:08
Speaker 3: going to be more Star Wars with the Timothy's On
3:11
Speaker 3: series and with Thrawn, and so absolutely I was highly
3:19
Speaker 3: Just like, it's hard to overestimate how much I was
3:24
Speaker 3: into the Star Wars books at this point, especially since
3:28
Speaker 3: the special editions are about to come out in a year,
3:31
Speaker 3: and for me, being the kid who had never seen
3:35
Speaker 3: Star Wars in the theater, the books really had a
3:40
Speaker 3: massive impact on how I felt about Star Wars because
3:46
Speaker 3: besides watching the movies for five hundred times on VHS,
3:53
Speaker 3: all I had other than that were the books, and
3:57
Speaker 3: so I kind of devoured just to about as many
4:00
Speaker 3: books as I possibly could, you know, and and even.
4:03
Speaker 1: At that point, as did I.
4:04
Speaker 3: You know, certain books had better reputations than others. But yeah,
4:10
Speaker 3: I mean I had read the Throng trilogy and I
4:12
Speaker 3: had read, you know, the all these other books, like, uh,
4:19
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think at that point, I think.
4:21
Speaker 2: Listen, there were so many There was Truth the Crystal
4:26
Speaker 2: Princess Lea, there was Tales of the Bounty Hunters, tales
4:31
Speaker 2: of everything all over the place, and Dark Saber is
4:35
Speaker 2: right there. I mean, you know, we're when this gets
4:38
Speaker 2: released in ninety five or a year out from Shadows
4:40
Speaker 2: of the Empire. You know, you talk about Resurgent Star
4:42
Speaker 2: Wars toy line coming out with that everything whole nine
4:46
Speaker 2: yards and U you know, so I'm there, I'm reading
4:50
Speaker 2: every single book that's coming out back then, like every
4:52
Speaker 2: single one. Didn't miss a single one. Still one of
4:55
Speaker 2: the greatest mistakes of my life getting rid of all
4:57
Speaker 2: of my first editions.
4:58
Speaker 1: Are you say, then, I feel exactly the same.
5:02
Speaker 2: And I actually had a cop a hardcover every if
5:05
Speaker 2: it was a hardcover, I bought it hardcover, fresh and
5:08
Speaker 2: news name, and I had the hardcover of Dark Saber.
5:11
Speaker 2: And I'll relate this story. I actually had it signed
5:15
Speaker 2: by Kevin J. Anderson really and an X Files convention
5:20
Speaker 2: wow at the Naval Surface Weapons Testing Center in Silver Spring, Maryland. Yes, kids,
5:28
Speaker 2: that's how fringe nerd festivals were back then. I went
5:33
Speaker 2: to an X Files convention at the Naval Surface Weapon
5:36
Speaker 2: Center in Silver Spring, Maryland. Okay, that place, by the way,
5:39
Speaker 2: is now decommissioned, but at one time they insisted they
5:42
Speaker 2: didn't actually test anything serious there and then something went
5:45
Speaker 2: boom and blew out everybody's windows for a mile around it,
5:47
Speaker 2: So you know, I guess we danced around fate. But
5:51
Speaker 2: he actually signed it on the inside on the first
5:54
Speaker 2: page to John Never trust a hut Kevin J Anderson
5:59
Speaker 2: and I it's the only interaction I've ever had with
6:02
Speaker 2: the guy. And he was I remember him. He was
6:04
Speaker 2: a delightful person. He was actually he was super sweet.
6:06
Speaker 2: He was really nice. He was there because he was
6:08
Speaker 2: also writing X file stuff. And I'm the one guy
6:12
Speaker 2: that showed up with a Star Wars book that was like,
6:14
Speaker 2: could you sign this for me? And we had a
6:16
Speaker 2: great time talking. So obviously we're best friends. He sends
6:20
Speaker 2: me a Christmas card every year. Obviously that's the implication.
6:23
Speaker 2: But I got to ask you coming back here to
6:25
Speaker 2: Dark Saber. Were you looking forward to reading it? Did
6:28
Speaker 2: you like it back in the nineties or is it
6:29
Speaker 2: one of those forgettable ones where you're like, what exactly
6:32
Speaker 2: happened here?
6:32
Speaker 3: No, I always remember this book in the sense of
6:35
Speaker 3: that they had a resurgence of the Death Star, but
6:40
Speaker 3: just creating the laser cannon, you know, I always remember
6:43
Speaker 3: that part of it, but I forgo and I remember
6:46
Speaker 3: the huts were part of it, but I didn't really
6:49
Speaker 3: remember some of the other aspects. So I want to
6:52
Speaker 3: frame this this way for me coming back to reread
6:55
Speaker 3: this was an interesting experience because I this year listened
6:58
Speaker 3: to the Throng trilogy. I walk almost every day and
7:02
Speaker 3: so I'm doing that for about an hour a day.
7:04
Speaker 3: So I've been listening to books that I've previously read
7:09
Speaker 3: that I wanted to be able to read again. But
7:11
Speaker 3: I thought, what a great way to experience them differently
7:15
Speaker 3: by listening to them, And so listen to the Throng trilogy,
7:19
Speaker 3: and then I listened to the Hand of Throng trilogy,
7:21
Speaker 3: which is actually the series that kind of closes out
7:25
Speaker 3: the entire Bantham era before you jump into the New
7:29
Speaker 3: Jedi order. That these were the last like hardcover books
7:35
Speaker 3: really in that era.
7:37
Speaker 1: And so.
7:39
Speaker 3: What's interesting about this book to me is so Zon
7:45
Speaker 3: utilizes a lot of all the characters he'd created, finds
7:51
Speaker 3: interesting ways to bring them back and kind of play
7:58
Speaker 3: with your expectations, you know, hand of you think, oh,
8:01
Speaker 3: Thron's got to be back in some way, right, And
8:04
Speaker 3: so this book is incredibly interesting to me because as
8:08
Speaker 3: I'm coming into it, I have that in the back
8:10
Speaker 3: of my mind of an author coming back and writing
8:13
Speaker 3: characters that they've previously written before.
8:16
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what Kevin J.
8:18
Speaker 3: Anderson does in this book, because a lot of the
8:21
Speaker 3: characters that he created for his series Jedi Academy, he
8:28
Speaker 3: brings back in this series. Specifically, Admiral Dahala, who I forgot,
8:33
Speaker 3: came back in this book. And like Thron in the
8:37
Speaker 3: Hand of Thron trilogy, the character is thought to be dead.
8:41
Speaker 3: Now I'm not spoiling whether or not Thron is actually
8:44
Speaker 3: back or not. You can go read those yourself at
8:46
Speaker 3: some point. But here Admiral Dalla was thought to be dead, right,
8:51
Speaker 3: and she resurfaces here, And so I thought that that, yeah,
8:56
Speaker 3: And I thought that was incredibly interesting to have these
9:00
Speaker 3: authors create characters to which they love playing with, and
9:03
Speaker 3: so they find ways to bring them back. And so
9:07
Speaker 3: as I'm reading this, you're asking like, how did I
9:09
Speaker 3: like it back then? I don't really remember. I think
9:11
Speaker 3: it was like kind of mid tier for me. But
9:14
Speaker 3: coming into this having that previous experience with the Hand
9:17
Speaker 3: of Thorn, this was like, Okay, one of these does
9:21
Speaker 3: it I feel like really well, and one of it
9:24
Speaker 3: doesn't do it as well.
9:26
Speaker 1: I don't think.
9:28
Speaker 2: I see what you're saying, and I think this is
9:30
Speaker 2: where you and I will diverge a little bit. Is
9:34
Speaker 2: coming back had I remembered the Dark Saber itself. I
9:38
Speaker 2: remembered that the huts were involved. I remembered that. And
9:42
Speaker 2: here's the spoiler warning, kids, But I don't know why
9:44
Speaker 2: you would be listening to us talk about a thirty
9:46
Speaker 2: one year old book, you know, and not know what
9:48
Speaker 2: happened and everything I remembered at the time. I loved
9:51
Speaker 2: the way he handled the death of General Maydine. I
9:55
Speaker 2: remember that all the time out Yeah, blew my mind
9:59
Speaker 2: because I was like, they have actually killed him. And
10:01
Speaker 2: I do remember talking to him about it and he said, yeah,
10:04
Speaker 2: I had to get permission to do that. He had
10:07
Speaker 2: to get permission to get Madine killed, right, if you
10:09
Speaker 2: were going to kill a character like that, And it's
10:11
Speaker 2: the whole reason, and this is well established in other interviews.
10:15
Speaker 2: The whole reason that he almost killed mon Mathma but
10:18
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to kill man Mathma in the Jedi Academy
10:21
Speaker 2: trilogy is because Lucasfilm came back and said, no, you can't,
10:24
Speaker 2: not allowed to kill her, so he took her to
10:27
Speaker 2: the edge of death and then brought her back in
10:28
Speaker 2: that series. So in Dark Saber, Madine actually dying, the
10:34
Speaker 2: idea that a hut would steal the plans and put
10:37
Speaker 2: the you know, like the idea of having a death
10:40
Speaker 2: star peared down so that it was just the gun
10:46
Speaker 2: the whole thing. Coming back to it really felt like
10:52
Speaker 2: Anderson found the cord that is struck by reading one
10:58
Speaker 2: of those old nineteen fifties sci fi novels.
11:01
Speaker 1: That informed Star Wars in the first place.
11:03
Speaker 2: It's way over the top, it's hammy, it's silly, it's
11:09
Speaker 2: nonsense at points, but it's a fast beach read, and
11:14
Speaker 2: you like the characters, you're predisposed to root for the heroes,
11:18
Speaker 2: and you're like, okay, and then he throws in a
11:20
Speaker 2: death and then you have some comical stuff and it's like, okay.
11:24
Speaker 1: Now, where did you feel it went?
11:27
Speaker 2: Too far, because you know, obviously goes over the top
11:30
Speaker 2: at certain points. There's one thing in this book that
11:34
Speaker 2: I actually truly dislike and have always disliked. And I'm
11:40
Speaker 2: curious if we both dislike the same one thing, our
11:43
Speaker 2: number one thing most disliked about the book.
11:46
Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to pick what I dislike the most
11:51
Speaker 3: because there's a few things. But I will say one
11:53
Speaker 3: of the things that stood out to me as too
11:56
Speaker 3: over the top was this, the idea that some Jedi
12:00
Speaker 3: students can throw an entire fleet across.
12:04
Speaker 1: A star system was ludicrous, like a bit overpowered.
12:11
Speaker 3: Yes, and and and and It's interesting because again, one
12:14
Speaker 3: of the things that Zoon does in his duology is
12:20
Speaker 3: to basically reel Luke back in and reel the Force
12:25
Speaker 3: use back in.
12:26
Speaker 1: Uh.
12:27
Speaker 3: And this is one of the prime examples I think
12:30
Speaker 3: of the place where it's like the Force is diss
12:34
Speaker 3: Macano right like it it's just, you know, whatever we
12:39
Speaker 3: need the Force to do, anybody can do. I mean,
12:42
Speaker 3: when they're throwing like stones at ships and stuff, I'm like, dude,
12:48
Speaker 3: we we barely saw Yoda do anything like this, or
12:53
Speaker 3: even Palpatine.
12:54
Speaker 1: You know, right, it feels too easy? Yes, exactly, and
12:58
Speaker 1: I think it feels too easy, right.
12:59
Speaker 3: And so you mentioned the idea that this is very
13:01
Speaker 3: pulpy and all that, and I agree with you in
13:04
Speaker 3: that sense. This book absolutely captures the idea of like
13:08
Speaker 3: pulp sci fi, where you know, it does feel like
13:12
Speaker 3: you're watching a Flashcoordon episode very much.
13:15
Speaker 1: So. Everything is over the top.
13:17
Speaker 3: The villains are over the top, the heroes are over
13:20
Speaker 3: the top.
13:21
Speaker 1: Everything's over the top.
13:23
Speaker 3: And yet I think that and this is where I
13:27
Speaker 3: think my biggest critique of the entire book is is
13:30
Speaker 3: just that Star Wars found a way to kind of
13:33
Speaker 3: bring those sensibilities but then ground them in a way
13:39
Speaker 3: that made things feel real even when you know you
13:42
Speaker 3: have space wizards, and so this kind of Jettison's that
13:47
Speaker 3: feeling to where it's like, Okay, we've you know, we've
13:52
Speaker 3: allowed the train to go around the bend too far
13:55
Speaker 3: now and now I just can't believe it. And to me,
13:58
Speaker 3: that's the place where I I couldn't get behind the
14:02
Speaker 3: book the same way it seems like you do.
14:05
Speaker 1: See.
14:05
Speaker 2: I think that with the pushing the fleet thing, it
14:09
Speaker 2: was so unexpected at the time, and then when I
14:12
Speaker 2: read it this, I was like, oh, right, Oh yeah
14:14
Speaker 2: they did that. I agree it's overpowered, but he at
14:17
Speaker 2: least makes an effort like the whole Like this book
14:21
Speaker 2: is designed to be read within the context of everything,
14:24
Speaker 2: and so we're supposed to know coming into it that
14:28
Speaker 2: Yavin for is like this force rich thing and the
14:31
Speaker 2: temples can focus force energies from ancient times and stuff
14:34
Speaker 2: like that. And then all of the Jedi students linked
14:37
Speaker 2: together hands across America style to have the one guy
14:41
Speaker 2: door skaty one push the fleet away, right, And I
14:48
Speaker 2: think that what's interesting about it is it is over
14:52
Speaker 2: the top, but it didn't take me completely out of it,
14:55
Speaker 2: except that it removes any peril agreed, so that when
15:00
Speaker 2: Dala shows up later, I'm like, well, she doesn't stand
15:03
Speaker 2: a chance, right. And on top of that, maybe this
15:07
Speaker 2: is being an older fan, but I'm sitting there and
15:10
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, yes, Hellyon seems like an idiot because
15:14
Speaker 2: they're like, we're showing up to show the galaxy a
15:16
Speaker 2: lesson and we're gonna kill all the Jedi and so
15:19
Speaker 2: we'll send a bunch of atsts and tie fighters. I'm like,
15:21
Speaker 2: you're in star destroyers for Pete's sake. Bombard the planet, right, Like,
15:26
Speaker 2: what do you you know, it's sort of like when
15:28
Speaker 2: when Kylo Ren is flying toward Ray in the Rise
15:32
Speaker 2: of Skywalker and it's like, why aren't you just shooting
15:36
Speaker 2: at her? Just shoot at her, just pull the trigger
15:38
Speaker 2: for God's sake.
15:39
Speaker 3: Well, it reminds me like remember when Vader in Empire's
15:43
Speaker 3: like all to easy? And that's this book. Everything is
15:46
Speaker 3: all too easy, you know, and there's very little things
15:49
Speaker 3: that can't be like with the snap of a finger,
15:53
Speaker 3: feel like they're taken care of, except for the Callista story,
15:59
Speaker 3: which I can't.
16:01
Speaker 1: I know that bothers me so much. Story is so bad.
16:05
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it.
16:08
Speaker 3: I have read y A novels with with way better dialogue. Uh,
16:15
Speaker 3: just this is I mean, we've read some Star Wars
16:19
Speaker 3: Ya novels that we love, like I think Lost Stars, right,
16:21
Speaker 3: you think.
16:22
Speaker 2: Of Lost Stars? Is you know, if anybody is not good,
16:26
Speaker 2: stars run out.
16:27
Speaker 3: And it's phenomenal, Claudia Gray exactly.
16:32
Speaker 1: It's just man, So we're not going to honor that.
16:35
Speaker 3: Just by the way, this is just terrible and the
16:38
Speaker 3: storyline is just so dumb.
16:42
Speaker 1: I think.
16:44
Speaker 3: It makes the characters feel stupider, you know. Luke just
16:48
Speaker 3: feels dumb. Calista feels dumb because they're written like really
16:55
Speaker 3: bad teenagers, and I just nothing about the story even
17:00
Speaker 3: makes sense.
17:01
Speaker 1: But see, this is where I will give in.
17:02
Speaker 3: The Star Wars lore that she would somehow lose her
17:05
Speaker 3: ability to touch the force, and like she can't be
17:08
Speaker 3: touched by the force at all.
17:09
Speaker 1: She's not a usual vong.
17:11
Speaker 3: She's she's not a she winds.
17:15
Speaker 1: Up able to touch the force. It's just through the door.
17:18
Speaker 3: Yes, And of course she'll she'll play into a later series,
17:22
Speaker 3: uh spoiler alert.
17:23
Speaker 2: But see, but see that this is the thing, is
17:27
Speaker 2: he at least gets her out of the story. Like
17:32
Speaker 2: I know she's going to come back in the next book,
17:34
Speaker 2: which is unfortunate, but like I I appreciate.
17:39
Speaker 3: That it's unfortunate because the book is playing out of Twilight,
17:42
Speaker 3: which is generally considered like the second worst Star Wars
17:45
Speaker 3: book full time.
17:46
Speaker 2: So you know, I, well, you're just making me want
17:49
Speaker 2: to go back and read it now, you know that.
17:51
Speaker 2: But I think that, oh man, I think that Anderson
17:57
Speaker 2: really is trying to get her out of the plot,
17:59
Speaker 2: out of the storyline. Yeah, Like it really feels like
18:01
Speaker 2: he's doing the work of getting her out. I think
18:04
Speaker 2: the whole idea of the fact that Luke is looking
18:09
Speaker 2: at a student of his, but it's inhabited by the
18:12
Speaker 2: spirit of a ghost that he fell in love with.
18:16
Speaker 1: That's the part where I'm like this, what like that.
18:20
Speaker 2: It's like, it's just it doesn't make any it doesn't connect.
18:24
Speaker 1: The neurons don't fire. Now.
18:26
Speaker 2: It's also something that's a larger issue overall, and I
18:31
Speaker 2: think with the Expanded Universe in general, is that there
18:35
Speaker 2: were so many plot lines going on that were open
18:37
Speaker 2: threads carried from book to book. I understand and respect
18:41
Speaker 2: what they were doing, but I honestly think there what
18:44
Speaker 2: you're sensing, and I don't have a line on the guy.
18:48
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk to him again. I think I
18:52
Speaker 2: think Anderson wasn't necessarily happy about being stuck with Callista,
18:55
Speaker 2: if that makes sense. I think if you read the
18:58
Speaker 2: door skaty one and hip stuff, he's interested in going
19:02
Speaker 2: to dorskevy One's own planet, examining.
19:05
Speaker 1: A different sci fi angle.
19:07
Speaker 2: He's interested in bringing Dala back and having play and
19:11
Speaker 2: work with her. I think that while he gets overpowered
19:15
Speaker 2: with the Force on Yavin Four, it's the only way
19:18
Speaker 2: he's going to write himself out of that corner. I
19:20
Speaker 2: think he enjoys the idea of going back to Java's palace.
19:23
Speaker 2: I love encountering the guy that Jaba basically tortured by
19:28
Speaker 2: putting his brain in a Boemar Monk's body, you know,
19:31
Speaker 2: in the spider body, and being like that was how
19:34
Speaker 2: Jaba was going got his Jolly's right. And I think
19:39
Speaker 2: the Callista thing is just the part of the story
19:42
Speaker 2: that I feel like Anderson wasn't. He was like, Okay,
19:45
Speaker 2: I gotta do this part. But it does tie into
19:49
Speaker 2: one of the things that I hate most about the book,
19:52
Speaker 2: and that's the one armed Wampa eating a Wampa revolution
19:56
Speaker 2: against luke On Hawk's really disliked that back in the nineties,
20:03
Speaker 2: and I really dislike it now because it is so
20:09
Speaker 2: ludicrous as to be like it takes me out of it.
20:14
Speaker 1: It's just laughable. And it.
20:19
Speaker 2: While I think that's laughable, I think it at least
20:23
Speaker 2: does a you know, like it's like that he had
20:28
Speaker 2: to have some way to get them off of Hawf
20:31
Speaker 2: so that they could go to the asteroid field where
20:33
Speaker 2: the Dark Saber is being made and have that, you know,
20:39
Speaker 2: be discovered. I mean, if anything, people might make fun
20:43
Speaker 2: of the fact that, like, you know, mythologically, Lucas has
20:45
Speaker 2: them continually going back to tato Wine and that's you know,
20:52
Speaker 2: that's that sort of like rhythmic Norse mythology sort of thing.
20:55
Speaker 2: So I can get behind that. But going back to
20:58
Speaker 2: Hawth and putting the Dark Saber being built in the
21:03
Speaker 2: hawk asteroid field, it's like it could have been somewhere else.
21:07
Speaker 2: It didn't need to be in movie locations that we knew,
21:11
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the things that irritates
21:14
Speaker 2: me about the book. Now, don't I don't hate the
21:17
Speaker 2: book as a result, but it's something I didn't like
21:19
Speaker 2: about the book. It's a plot element I could have
21:22
Speaker 2: done with Helt.
21:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, on that front,
21:26
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right. I think one hundred percent. There are
21:30
Speaker 3: storylines here that Anderson definitely feels more connected to, and
21:34
Speaker 3: then there's others that he doesn't. One of the things
21:37
Speaker 3: as you're mentioning on those storylines I think that I
21:40
Speaker 3: find frustrating personally is that there is a lack of
21:44
Speaker 3: focus in the book in the first place. With the stories,
21:48
Speaker 3: we are so all over the place with too many
21:51
Speaker 3: thread lines and there's not enough cohesion here in the book,
21:55
Speaker 3: and therefore it leaves you feeling as though stories get
22:00
Speaker 3: short changed. So, you know, when you have the story
22:03
Speaker 3: with Kipterin and Dorisk eighty one that almost feels like
22:08
Speaker 3: a whole book in and of itself, right, this idea,
22:10
Speaker 3: this exploration, you know, the storyline with Calista and Luke
22:15
Speaker 3: also kind of feels like that, like that it should
22:17
Speaker 3: be its own thing. And I mean even just the
22:24
Speaker 3: Huts and the Dark Saber project or Admiral Dahala coming back,
22:32
Speaker 3: all of these feel like storylines that should be their
22:34
Speaker 3: own thing, and yet they get thrown into this mixer.
22:38
Speaker 3: And I find that to be utterly frustrating because none
22:40
Speaker 3: of them gets enough time. And so therefore one of
22:43
Speaker 3: the issues that we mentioned where everything just resolves incredibly
22:47
Speaker 3: quickly and easily becomes the problem. Right, we end up
22:52
Speaker 3: in this place where it just feels like everything was
22:55
Speaker 3: too easy, or you're just so glad that it's there.
23:00
Speaker 3: By the end of the book, you're like, again with
23:02
Speaker 3: the closest storyline, oh thank god, she's gone, you know,
23:07
Speaker 3: And so I don't and this is the thing, and
23:11
Speaker 3: this is where I can't lay this necessarily at Kevin
23:15
Speaker 3: J Anderson's feet, because I feel like this is an
23:19
Speaker 3: editorial problem more than it is his problem, right because
23:24
Speaker 3: the editor at this point for Bantam should have been
23:28
Speaker 3: the one to come back and say to him, Okay,
23:31
Speaker 3: we have these ideas, these ideas, these ideas. Okay, as
23:34
Speaker 3: you've written this, it seems like there's maybe a little
23:36
Speaker 3: bit too much going on here. If we simplify this
23:41
Speaker 3: story in this way, do this, you know, focus on
23:44
Speaker 3: these three storylines. Cut this one out. We don't need it.
23:47
Speaker 3: It's fine, It'll give you more time to play around
23:49
Speaker 3: with this. I think actually it's more of an editorial
23:53
Speaker 3: issue than at a Kevin j Anderson issue.
23:55
Speaker 1: I don't do you agree with that at all?
23:57
Speaker 2: I I know I don't reject that because what I
24:00
Speaker 2: can tell you right off the bat, what I would
24:03
Speaker 2: cut would be uh Durga the hut, going and talking
24:09
Speaker 2: to Leya with the little weird monkey creatures that break
24:12
Speaker 2: into the servers. I would have kept the huts and
24:15
Speaker 2: the imperials off to the side and had an imperial
24:19
Speaker 2: remnant who thought Dalla was dead building the Dark Saber.
24:25
Speaker 2: I would have had Dalla checking in at the Dark
24:27
Speaker 2: Saber and saying Okay, cool. The only thing that can
24:29
Speaker 2: stop this is the Jedis, and I'm going to go
24:32
Speaker 2: blow them up, right. I would have found a way
24:36
Speaker 2: to tie all of them together, or have Palayan working
24:40
Speaker 2: on it when Dala shows back, whatever, whatever the solution is,
24:43
Speaker 2: that would have I think collapsed the the storylines enough.
24:48
Speaker 2: The detort of Hoth I can live with. The difficulty
24:52
Speaker 2: I think is Durga going to visit Leya feels like
24:56
Speaker 2: the only way to.
24:57
Speaker 1: Get Leya into the story.
24:59
Speaker 2: And and I think that's the downside is that I
25:04
Speaker 2: think that Anderson feels obligated to make sure those characters
25:09
Speaker 2: get in the story somehow, Han Laya, Luke, They've got
25:13
Speaker 2: to be in there. And it's one of those things
25:17
Speaker 2: where when I look at this, I do see shades
25:22
Speaker 2: of problems that have sort of haunted later Star Wars stuff.
25:30
Speaker 1: Where this feels.
25:31
Speaker 2: A lot like what Abrams and Johnson did with the
25:36
Speaker 2: sequel trilogy, where there are a lot of ideas thrown
25:40
Speaker 2: together as opposed to a cohesive through life where we're
25:45
Speaker 2: just sort of like it's a story, but it's not like,
25:50
Speaker 2: you know, it's a bridge sort of thing. You know,
25:54
Speaker 2: like that's not even the way to say it. It
25:57
Speaker 2: just it's just at the end of it. I was
26:02
Speaker 2: entertained with this book, but I wasn't in love with it.
26:05
Speaker 2: I was like, it's it's fine. And that's about my extent,
26:09
Speaker 2: the extent of my feeling on it is like, it's fine,
26:11
Speaker 2: it's good. I had a good time with it. It's
26:14
Speaker 2: it's silly, and I think that I just I struggle
26:20
Speaker 2: with the fact that I think.
26:21
Speaker 1: I think Kevin Anderson's a good writer. He moves things.
26:25
Speaker 2: It just goes along, and he's not sitting there. It's
26:28
Speaker 2: not laborious to read anything from him.
26:30
Speaker 1: It flows.
26:32
Speaker 2: He's really good at description. I can picture everything very well.
26:35
Speaker 2: He lays things out. The characters are clear door skating.
26:38
Speaker 2: One is different from Kip, is different from Luke, is
26:40
Speaker 2: different from Callista.
26:42
Speaker 1: I don't have any character bleed.
26:44
Speaker 2: Do you feel the same way where the character's distinct
26:47
Speaker 2: enough for you?
26:49
Speaker 3: No, I think, And this is probably an issue for
26:54
Speaker 3: me in the sense that I had just listened to
26:58
Speaker 3: a bunch of Timothy's on and Zon's dialogue, and the
27:05
Speaker 3: way the characters come across, the way they act. Everything
27:09
Speaker 3: about what he does, I would dare to say is
27:12
Speaker 3: kind of pitch perfect. You know, it feels like Luke
27:18
Speaker 3: as written by George Lucas. Basically, it doesn't feel like
27:21
Speaker 3: he's ever saying anything that feels off right. I feel
27:25
Speaker 3: like here the dialogue for the characters just felt very
27:31
Speaker 3: surface level and in a way, it didn't feel like
27:34
Speaker 3: the voice of the characters always. Now I'm not saying
27:38
Speaker 3: that he never captured them. I'm just saying that there
27:41
Speaker 3: were times where it felt like that the characters were
27:45
Speaker 3: almost divorced from themselves in the sense that they just
27:48
Speaker 3: didn't sound like themselves, which you know when you're writing,
27:54
Speaker 3: and everyone knows this when you're writing a tie in novel,
27:58
Speaker 3: that's exactly what you want to do. You need the
28:01
Speaker 3: voices of the characters to sound consistent to themselves so
28:04
Speaker 3: that as a person is reading, they're they're never there
28:07
Speaker 3: can always hear the voice of the actor as that
28:11
Speaker 3: person saying that and it sound correct. And I think
28:15
Speaker 3: there were many places in here, specifically with the character
28:17
Speaker 3: of Luke, where that did not seem like that was
28:20
Speaker 3: the case. And a big part of that is the
28:23
Speaker 3: storyline that he's having to plug into here with Callista.
28:26
Speaker 3: But I think there are even places where where where
28:31
Speaker 3: Lea doesn't necessarily feel like that, even Han and others,
28:35
Speaker 3: and so Chewbacca always sounds like Chewbacca though, So that's great,
28:39
Speaker 3: you know, regardless.
28:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's tough to nail too. It's hard. It's
28:43
Speaker 1: hard to get that wrong, honestly. But so.
28:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, but I think that this is just
28:52
Speaker 3: one of those places too where the EU itself it
28:57
Speaker 3: was full of ups and downs with the story and
29:01
Speaker 3: stories and writers and obviously some were more successful than others.
29:07
Speaker 3: Even some authors had books that you really liked, and
29:10
Speaker 3: then they would have ones where you're like, oh, that
29:12
Speaker 3: was not as my favorite, you know. And so I
29:14
Speaker 3: think that was another part of this where it was
29:17
Speaker 3: just like this just didn't seem to work for me
29:21
Speaker 3: on the levels that other books had, even maybe by
29:25
Speaker 3: Kevin J.
29:26
Speaker 1: Anderson.
29:28
Speaker 2: But see, let me throw this out there, because this
29:31
Speaker 2: is an ancient thing and you can vouch for me.
29:34
Speaker 2: And I always said it before throughout the history of
29:36
Speaker 2: the show. When Disney announced that the Oldieu was dead
29:41
Speaker 2: so it would free them up to tell other stories
29:44
Speaker 2: and not feel obliged to stick within those guidelines, I
29:49
Speaker 2: was very happy. And while it seems that I have
29:52
Speaker 2: a better, you know, impression of Dark Saber than you do.
29:59
Speaker 2: It's still a book that I read and I go,
30:02
Speaker 2: so when people are freaking out and saying like, oh,
30:05
Speaker 2: the EU, you should have never gotten rid of the EU,
30:07
Speaker 2: I read Dark Saber and I'm like, what are you
30:09
Speaker 2: holding on to?
30:10
Speaker 1: Yeah?
30:11
Speaker 2: Like, what's what is it here? What is it that
30:14
Speaker 2: you're that is so vaunted for you? You're really kind
30:17
Speaker 2: of holding onto your memories more than anything. Because I'm
30:19
Speaker 2: reading this book right now, You're gonna tell me I
30:22
Speaker 2: got to play by these rules.
30:23
Speaker 1: That's insane. Yeah, right.
30:25
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with them bringing Thrown back
30:31
Speaker 2: because they brought Thrown in and worked them into a
30:33
Speaker 2: new continuity completely works, works beautifully well, in fact, works
30:37
Speaker 2: probably better than I would have ever expected. What I
30:42
Speaker 2: find hysterical because I made reference to Abrams and Johnson before.
30:47
Speaker 2: There are two things I'll throw out here was the
30:49
Speaker 2: Abrams and Johnson thing where I look at it and
30:53
Speaker 2: I go, they just couldn't get away from death Star
30:55
Speaker 2: Tech even back then. Yeah, yeah, and thout the entire
30:58
Speaker 2: sequel trilogy. It's like, oh, it's a death Star but
31:00
Speaker 2: a planet. Oh this gun is based on Death Star Tech. Oh,
31:04
Speaker 2: these Star to stories have Death Star Guns on them,
31:06
Speaker 2: And I'm like, why can't we get away from this?
31:08
Speaker 2: And then I come back and I look at Dark
31:10
Speaker 2: Saber from nineteen ninety five, thirty one years ago, and
31:12
Speaker 2: I go, oh man, we were.
31:14
Speaker 1: Trapped then too. Ah, come on, guys.
31:18
Speaker 2: But the other thing that I'd love to get your
31:20
Speaker 2: reaction to is this is a book. We're in the beginning.
31:25
Speaker 2: We're already trying to move beyond the impression of the
31:29
Speaker 2: Tuscan Raiders as just mindless brutes. We're introduced to this
31:34
Speaker 2: richer culture, you know, the storytelling tradition, the wearing the garb,
31:39
Speaker 2: all of that type of stuff. I mean those two
31:41
Speaker 2: points right that, the death Star Tech and the Tuscan Raiders.
31:46
Speaker 2: Do you see any similarities with like what they've done
31:49
Speaker 2: with New Continuity, both good and bad?
31:50
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I mean one hundred percent. I think.
31:56
Speaker 3: I think the writers even then, you know, we're thinking
31:59
Speaker 3: to them selves that there had to be more to
32:01
Speaker 3: these characters. You know, there had to be more than
32:04
Speaker 3: this civilization. And I think, you know, having them be
32:09
Speaker 3: hard people because of where they live and everything makes sense.
32:14
Speaker 3: But the fact that they would have a culture and
32:17
Speaker 3: that they would be richer than just kind of people
32:20
Speaker 3: who do nothing but mindlessly kill people for fun. I
32:24
Speaker 3: think it's great, you know, and so I applaud them
32:28
Speaker 3: for kind of working to do that, you know. I
32:30
Speaker 3: think it's the same way that you saw Karen Travers
32:34
Speaker 3: do that with the Mandalorian culture and try to give
32:36
Speaker 3: them more and you know, flush them out.
32:40
Speaker 2: You know.
32:40
Speaker 3: I think, you know, to quote the other Star franchise,
32:44
Speaker 3: I think it's the reason you see something like a
32:48
Speaker 3: Deep Space nine take different races like the Klingons or
32:51
Speaker 3: Cardassians or Rangie and try to flesh them out and
32:54
Speaker 3: make them fully realized people, right that just don't feel
32:58
Speaker 3: like cookie cutters of one another. And so I think
33:04
Speaker 3: that's the stuff that, you know, when when the authors
33:08
Speaker 3: were at their best, I think it allowed them to
33:10
Speaker 3: be able to do that.
33:12
Speaker 1: You know.
33:14
Speaker 3: And yeah, so I'm glad that Kevin J. Anderson gave
33:20
Speaker 3: a little bit more, you know, to this, you know,
33:22
Speaker 3: the same way I think as kind of over the
33:26
Speaker 3: top and crazy as you know, the Huts were. I
33:30
Speaker 3: the crazy part about the story is that I enjoy
33:33
Speaker 3: the overreaching of the Huts to try to become a
33:36
Speaker 3: major power. You know, there's this is the thing. I
33:40
Speaker 3: think this book is rife with some really interesting ideas.
33:45
Speaker 3: I think it really comes down to me is the
33:47
Speaker 3: execution of them, and the fact that it felt like
33:50
Speaker 3: he's trying to execute too many ideas and therefore he
33:53
Speaker 3: never has the opportunity to really fully flesh any of
33:56
Speaker 3: them out to the to the fullest degree that I
33:59
Speaker 3: would possible. And so again I'm not laying this at
34:03
Speaker 3: the feet of him as much as again, like you
34:07
Speaker 3: say so many times when we talk about them, the
34:08
Speaker 3: six or two Club, and we've even talked here, right,
34:11
Speaker 3: the director is responsible for getting the best out of
34:16
Speaker 3: the actor, and if the actor doesn't give them what
34:19
Speaker 3: they want, they can do another take and try and
34:22
Speaker 3: get that out of them. And so I think the
34:26
Speaker 3: same thing with an editor or an ip you know,
34:28
Speaker 3: having talked to enough of the authors and even the
34:32
Speaker 3: editors over in the other Star franchise, that's very much
34:36
Speaker 3: how it works, right. You're responsible forgetting what you need
34:40
Speaker 3: story wise and where you're hoping the whole thing's kind
34:46
Speaker 3: of going in that book and maybe in multiple books
34:53
Speaker 3: as the editor, and so if you're not kind of
34:56
Speaker 3: quite getting what you want.
34:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should.
34:59
Speaker 3: Probably we make the author go back and rewrite certain
35:03
Speaker 3: sections or cuts things out, and you know, again, it's
35:06
Speaker 3: the same with a director. And so I don't lay
35:10
Speaker 3: this quite as much, probably as others might at at
35:13
Speaker 3: Kevin's feet, but there are places where I think, you know,
35:17
Speaker 3: he's also kind of the blame to some of this too,
35:19
Speaker 3: So there's enough to go around.
35:22
Speaker 2: So your final star rating? Do we rate books out
35:25
Speaker 2: of four or five? I forget crossover? Is it five stars?
35:28
Speaker 3: Yeah? Right, because because doesn't good Reads does five stars?
35:33
Speaker 1: All right, we'll do the good Reads rule.
35:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, good Reads rule is, but good Reads does
35:38
Speaker 2: not let you do have stars I know, which would
35:40
Speaker 2: make it.
35:40
Speaker 3: So it's like Darren Moser thrilled. Yeah, good Reads is
35:45
Speaker 3: the Darren Moser of rating systems. Yes, and uh, I
35:51
Speaker 3: am going to go with ah, I'm gonna go with
35:55
Speaker 3: the two. Okay, this is a This is just not
35:59
Speaker 3: a book that I would ever revisit. As I have
36:03
Speaker 3: been revisiting a lot of Star Wars this year, I've
36:05
Speaker 3: been rereading the New Jedi Order series, and like I said,
36:10
Speaker 3: I listened to the thron book series as well as
36:13
Speaker 3: the Hand of Thron And also I've listened to one
36:18
Speaker 3: of the new novels Legacy, So I've run the gamut
36:22
Speaker 3: with different types of Star Wars stories and this one
36:26
Speaker 3: is firmly, firmly middle to bottom of what I've read
36:33
Speaker 3: or listened to this year.
36:34
Speaker 1: So what about you? Okay?
36:36
Speaker 2: Well, and this is this is not the only one
36:39
Speaker 2: we're gonna be reading on the show this year, just
36:41
Speaker 2: so you guys know, we're gonna be having a lot
36:43
Speaker 2: of fun with this and maybe, just maybe because he
36:45
Speaker 2: hates it so much, we're gonna have to read Planet
36:47
Speaker 2: at Twilight. I don't know, right in, let us know,
36:49
Speaker 2: let us know, force him, force him.
36:51
Speaker 3: I mean, if you give us ten new star ratings
36:55
Speaker 3: and reviews on Apple podcasts, and I do mean brand
36:58
Speaker 3: new reviews and ratings, we will read it.
37:01
Speaker 1: I promise. That's a challenge to the reader.
37:03
Speaker 2: If you were to go set up a bot, yeah
37:05
Speaker 2: do it please? Well, yeah, I am nicer to this
37:10
Speaker 2: book than you are, and I think it's because I
37:12
Speaker 2: just had fun reading it. It's so silly, it's so
37:16
Speaker 2: over the top, so it refuses to take itself too seriously,
37:20
Speaker 2: which I appreciate because like it's not like Anderson is
37:26
Speaker 2: a good writer, and when he's invested in what's going
37:30
Speaker 2: on in the book, it's a lot of fun when
37:32
Speaker 2: he's making commentary because I know this was part of
37:35
Speaker 2: his commentary on Jedi in the Jedi Academy trilogy as well,
37:38
Speaker 2: is how ineffective construction crews and bureaucratic meetings and like
37:45
Speaker 2: all this stuff, Like there's the guy obviously worked in
37:51
Speaker 2: sectors of business and government that definitely echo like I
37:57
Speaker 2: don't know his actual background, but this is the voice
37:59
Speaker 2: of so like like like Scott Adams with Gilbert commenting
38:03
Speaker 2: on the Phone Company, where it's like, I feel like
38:05
Speaker 2: you've been through these sorts of things before. So I
38:08
Speaker 2: give it a three. I think it's fun. Do I
38:11
Speaker 2: would I recommend this to a non Star Wars fan.
38:13
Speaker 2: Not in four hundred thousand years. No non Star Wars
38:18
Speaker 2: fan is going to read this book and be like, well,
38:20
Speaker 2: you know, this was really deep new. But if you're
38:23
Speaker 2: a Star Wars fan, especially an older Star Wars fan
38:25
Speaker 2: who's just looking to just like have a silly beach read,
38:29
Speaker 2: I'm a slow reader, folks, I'm a super slow reader.
38:32
Speaker 2: And I published this thing off in like four and a.
38:34
Speaker 1: Half days you finished it.
38:35
Speaker 2: That's the lightning fast for me, and like it's just
38:40
Speaker 2: I just think it's fun. So it's three stars for me.
38:43
Speaker 2: But a five star experience for me is interacting with
38:47
Speaker 2: you online, Matt. So where can people interact with you
38:50
Speaker 2: out there?
38:51
Speaker 3: Well, I would love to give you a five star event,
38:55
Speaker 3: So interact with me on social media under the name
38:57
Speaker 3: Matt Rushing zero two. All over social media, that's my name.
39:00
Speaker 3: So if I'm on the platform, that's where you'll find me.
39:03
Speaker 3: Of course, you can also find me here on the
39:05
Speaker 3: network doing outposts with Dre Kaufman as we talk about
39:09
Speaker 3: every single chapter of the Harry Potter series, one chapter
39:12
Speaker 3: at a time. So if you like lit talk, that's
39:15
Speaker 3: a place for you. Over on the TFM network, I'm
39:17
Speaker 3: on the six oh two Club talking about all of
39:21
Speaker 3: the franchises we love, and then a lot of great
39:23
Speaker 3: star trek talk with my good friend Chris Jones there too,
39:26
Speaker 3: So I hope you'll check all of those out.
39:28
Speaker 1: But John, if.
39:29
Speaker 3: People wanted to get maybe some more literature recommendations from you,
39:34
Speaker 3: where would they find you?
39:36
Speaker 2: Well, Gosh, I love giving literature recommendations because I've read
39:40
Speaker 2: some zany stuff, and you can find me out there
39:43
Speaker 2: on good Reads and Letterbox talking about movies over there.
39:47
Speaker 2: But good Reads is for books under the user named
39:49
Speaker 2: kessel Junkie, which has been my online name since two
39:53
Speaker 2: thousand and two, question Mark.
39:55
Speaker 1: Two thousand and two, two thousand and three, something like that.
39:57
Speaker 2: Anyway, and you can, of course I'm me on kessel
40:00
Speaker 2: junki dot com blogging on occasion, and you can find
40:03
Speaker 2: me here on the network co hosting a show called
40:06
Speaker 2: house Lights with Darren Moser interest in Madel where we
40:08
Speaker 2: talk about different movies and franchises and stuff through the
40:12
Speaker 2: lens of the directors who steered them through, which, like
40:15
Speaker 2: Matt said, an editor is a director and or a producer. Really,
40:21
Speaker 2: an editor is a producer, and he wants his director,
40:24
Speaker 2: who's the writer, to produce the film that's going to
40:27
Speaker 2: make him money, the book that's going to make him money.
40:29
Speaker 2: And Dark Saber made money, but it might not have
40:31
Speaker 2: won hearts. So with that, I say, I got to
40:34
Speaker 2: go back, and I got to go put my copy
40:36
Speaker 2: of Dark Saber in acid free protective paper so that
40:40
Speaker 2: I never lose this copy ever again. So I think
40:44
Speaker 2: it's time to close these negotiations John, Negotiations are close.
40:53
Speaker 1: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.