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How do the Pirates Copy the Brewers and Rays? · Bucco Territory: A Pittsburgh Pirates Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Bucko Territory,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: presented to you by the Fowl Territory Network. I'm Noah Hiles.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Joining me, as always, are my co-hosts, Josh Harrison and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Platinum Key, a.k.a. Mark. It is Thursday, October 29th. We
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: are back as a trio, guys. Mark and Josh did
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: an awesome job holding it down while I was In Paris,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: but we're back at it now. I'm back in the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: United States, and we're back talking some baseball. We're recording
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: this on Wednesday afternoon, so I think there's a chance, right?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I think they play again tonight, that a World Series
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: champion could be crowned. in Tampa Bay. If not, then
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: we'll continue to talk about that in another show. But
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the focus on today's show, and this isn't even going
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: through the assumption that the season's over, but I just
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: think this is a good time to kind of look
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: into it, is obviously this World Series is being played
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: between two small market teams. They have two of the
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: smaller payrolls, two of the smaller media markets, but they're
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: both well-known as the best organizations in baseball. They get
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: the best bang for their buck. And Pirates fans who
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: root for a team in a small market are often
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: left wondering, well, if they can do it, why can't we?
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: It can't be as simple as having a dome, could it?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Because that's the only outlier here between the Rays and
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the Pirates. We're going to get into it. And really,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I want to focus more on the Brewers than the
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Rays because, I mean, one, there's a chance that they've
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: won the World Series by the time this episode is published.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: And even if they don't, haven't had that achieved yet,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I still think they are going to win the World Series.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: And even if they don't, I just think they're the
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: better model here just because they are in the same
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: division as the Pirates. So again, if they can figure
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: out a way to win in the NL Central, why
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: can't the Pirates? I look at three different ways, three
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: different elements as to how the Brewers are just a
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: better overall organization. And I broke them up into three things.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: The first one is players. The second one is Brewer Ball.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: And the third one is culture. And I'm going to
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: kind of give a little spiel on all three. And
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: then Mark and Josh are going to weigh in. So
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: let's get into it. We'll start off with the players.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: You look, I mean, the players win the game, right?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: That's how it goes. You got to have good, talented
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: ball players if you hope to be a competitive ball club.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: So let's look at how this Brewers roster is designed, right?
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: And I really do think they're a perfect example of
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: thriving in all areas of scouting. Let's start with the
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: amateur and international levels of scouting, right? Some of their
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: best players, I mean, Jacob Mizorowski is going to be
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: the NL Cy Young. He's a guy they drafted. So
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: amateur scouting nailed it. They draft him. They develop him.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: He comes up as a rookie last year. He's their ace.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: They got him. You look at international scouting. Jackson Chirio,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: probably going to be the World Series MVP. international win
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: right there. Abner Uribe, probably I would say, I mean,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: it's tough to call him the best reliever in that
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: bullpen because they have so many, but he's one of
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a ton of studs and an international win. Those are
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: just two off the top of my head. I'm sure
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: there are many, many others.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Top prospect in baseball right now.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They're the top prospect in baseball. The best shortstop
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  Speaker 1: in their organization really isn't even playing for them right now.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: So you look at Amateur scouting and international scouting, those
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: two areas. Finding guys well before they're even in the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: professional game. That is where the Brewers do very well at. Now,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: let's also look at their pro scouting. The Brewers don't
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: spend a lot of money, but when they do, they
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: get it right more often than not. Contreras, great free
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: agency acquisitions. Bowers, great acquisition. The Yelich extension. Yelich has
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: not been amazing as far as numbers are concerned, but
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: he was their star when this whole thing really got going.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And they kept him around. And culture, I think, played
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: a part in that. We're going to get into that
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  Speaker 1: a little bit later. But they've spent their dollars wisely.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: But to go on top of their spending dollars, and
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: that comes with scouting, knowing when you're pro scouts, know, hey,
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  Speaker 1: these are the guys that are trending upward. These are
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  Speaker 1: the guys that we can find value in. Pro scouting
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  Speaker 1: makes a big difference. Pro scouting also makes a big
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: difference when it comes to trade acquisitions. You just look
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: at the way the brewers move, obviously. They're famous for
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: trading away. some of their best players. They trade away Peralta.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: They let Contreras leave in free agency. They move Devin Williams. Yeah,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: that's what I meant. Willie Adamas leaving free agency. They
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: trade Devin Williams. They always seem to kind of get
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: better after they make moves like this. So you look
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: at some of the guys they get in these trades
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and they never really blow you away. But Hamilton, was
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: one of the guys they got in the Peralta deal, right? No,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: he was a part of whoever they traded to Boston. Boston. Yes.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: They made so many. Caleb Durbin is the trade.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't think of it.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So they get Hamilton for Durbin. Durbin has been, or
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Hamilton has been a difference maker. This series, Joey Ortiz
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: was a trade return in another package that they moved. Um,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and obviously he had the air in game four, but
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: it's these guys that they go out and get, it's
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: just always seems like they're getting a piece that helps. Um,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and they just seemingly always know what they need and, and,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I think we're conditioned here in Pittsburgh to always like
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: expect or hope for the highest ranked prospect possible. When
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: in reality, the brewers are so well constructed because they
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: spend their free agency dollars so well, because they scout
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: amateur and international so well and develop these guys. They
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: kind of just know it's like they're going on very
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: calculated trips to the grocery store when they're shopping. So
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: when they're making trades, they're not looking for just the
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: best overall prospect. Sometimes they're just saying, Hey, we need
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a guy who's really good on defense, like Ortiz, or
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: we need a guy who can kind of fill out
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the bottom half of the bottom third of the lineup,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: like Hamilton. Um, they just have a knack for knowing
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: what works for them, how to, how to identify talent
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: and how to develop it into a puzzle that really
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: fits together. Um, so yeah, As I round this up,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: I just want to point this out here. How do
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: they do this? Obviously, it ties back to the front office, right?
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I think it goes without saying that Matt Arnold is
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: a better GM than Ben Charrington. I don't think anyone
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: can debate that. And obviously, the Pirates had an opportunity
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: to hire Arnold. They chose Charrington instead. And you look
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: at what Arnold's built in Milwaukee since then. But... it's
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: not just Arnold who's doing this. It's the people that
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Arnold has hired. And this is where I'm going to
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: give the Pirates credit. If you look at the progress
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the Pirates have made as an organization, that progress really
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: stems back to some of the people Charrington has hired
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: starting in around 2023. His first couple of years in Pittsburgh,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: he didn't have the luxury of really building his own
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: front office staff because they were coming off of a pandemic.
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  Speaker 1: They weren't really in a position to, to let people
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: go and pay out those contracts and then also hire
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: new people. There was a hiring freeze essentially across the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: whole world for those next couple of years. So in 2023,
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  Speaker 1: he really started to build the front office that you
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: see in Pittsburgh now. And that's when you start to
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  Speaker 1: see the wins in drafting and development. You look at
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: when they brought in Justin Horowitz, the guy who, made
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: the decision to draft Connor Griffin and then Seth Hernandez
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and other guys like Murph Gray and those drafts, Levi Sterling,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Wyatt Sanford. That was a big hire for them. They
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: hired their head of professional scouting. I don't know his
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: name off the top of my head, but he came
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: from the Dodgers organization. That hire was made in December
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: of 2024. I don't think it's a coincidence that his
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  Speaker 1: first real off season of having an opportunity to make
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: moves was They go out and they acquire Ryan O'Hearn
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: and they get a lot of good value for that.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: They get Brandon Lau and these guys who weren't projected
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: by a lot of people to be these big impact acquisitions.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: They had the ability to identify it. Their research and
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: development is getting better. When they hired Kevin Tienenbaum. and
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  Speaker 1: Sarah jealous to high ranking officials in the front office
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  Speaker 1: now where they're starting to figure out kind of a
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: way to piece together a roster that can play cohesive baseball.
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  Speaker 1: Obviously there were some major flaws in certain areas of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: the team, but overall, I think you're seeing it kind
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: of form into what it needs to be. Matt Arnold
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  Speaker 1: deserves the credit because he built it all. Harrington, I think,
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  Speaker 1: and I think it's a valid excuse, did not have
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: the luxury of being able to start building his front
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: office until 2023. So we're starting to see those right
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: moves he made, I think, start to pay off. But
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the Brewers just nailed those hires, and they keep going.
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  Speaker 1: And those people that they hired hire other good people
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  Speaker 1: underneath them. And they're just so far ahead as an
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: organization where... Now they're at a point where it's very
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: easy for them to find good players. So I know
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: that was very long winded. I'm going to throw it
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: to you guys. Josh, we'll start with you. I mean,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: just as a player, you were a part of the
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Pirates when they were kind of this front office, when
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: they were seeing things and learning things. as an organization
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: that other teams weren't discovering early on. What was that like?
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  Speaker 1: And can you just talk about what that does for
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: a team that has limited financial resources, knowing that you've
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: got smart people who are making the right decisions above you?
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: Well, not to go too far in depth of the
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: second and third part that you want to hit on
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: first highlighting the players. You know, it's ultimately up to
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: the players. But when players know their role, know what's
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: expected of them and know what they bring to the
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: table and what the guy next to them brings to
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  Speaker 3: the table, that's when you can have a team that
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: comes together and, you know, can have runs and play
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: the way that you do. But as I said, to
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: not go into, you know, the second and third segment
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: too deep. when you have that at the forefront with
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: the team, you know, the identity, the culture is obviously
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: going to be one that is, you know, cohesive. And
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: then the last part, you know, you got to look at,
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: you know, the identity of the team starts with the manager,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Pat Murphy, who's probably going to be, you know, manager
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: of the year again. And when you have those things,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: there's an expectation from top to bottom. And when, You know,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: and when I say top to bottom, I'm talking from
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: the very head honcho, whoever, you know, owner all the
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: way down to, you know, that person that is being
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: discovered to be put in the minor leagues at rookie
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: ball or over, you know, in a Dominican league somewhere.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Everybody fits into what the big picture is from the top.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: And when you have buy-in from everybody, and as you said, Noah,
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: they can– I don't want to say it does sound
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: like it's easy for them just to go plug and
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: play somebody or find somebody. But when you have, you know,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: that cohesiveness from top to bottom and, you know, everybody
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: know what they're looking for and what they bring to
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: the table as a whole is it makes it a
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: lot much easier to, you know, find these per se
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: players that fit this mode or this structure to where,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: you you know, just one of the things I, I
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: think I saw it on our, um, one year, uh,
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: show that Mark had posted when me and AJ were talking, um,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: or as the episode me and AJ were talking, it
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: was just, I mentioned guys knew their roles. We had
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: a team of guys that knew what we brought to
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: the table individually. And, um, you look at that team,
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: we knew what we brought, but then at the same time,
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: you know, Clint put the belief of, you know, we
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: held each other accountable. Um, and you look at the
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Milwaukee Brewers, they get held accountable. Everybody talks about it.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: You know, you, everybody's been taken out at some point,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: not everybody, but when you talk these things, players know
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: their strengths, they know their teammates' strengths, they know how
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: to play on each other's, you know, strengths and weaknesses. And,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: you know, in those moments where other teams, things get
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: sped up and really, you know, nerve wracking, you know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: the team over there that is collected, you know, they're like,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: somebody's getting it done. It might be this guy today,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: it might be that guy. Yes, you got your mainstays
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: that are, you know, going to make their noise. But
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it's like, man, man,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: one through nine, one through nine, like, man, you, you
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: can't take any breaks off. And I think offensively you
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: saw it when they had what? Seven, two out hits.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: The eight run inning and then a couple that paired
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: it up with the next day, even though they, you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: their first RBI was with two outs and it's like,
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: come on, man, it's eight straight RBIs with two outs.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: It's a team that plays baseball. They're gritty. They play
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: the ball. They play ball the right way.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Mark, as a fan, let me just ask you, when
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: you see a small market team like this winning, does
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: it give you hope that the Pirates can replicate this?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Or is it just something where it's like more dejecting
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: being like, they can do this and we can't?
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly jealous. I'll put that, like,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that's my first reaction is jealousy. But it is somewhat...
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: like it does give me some hope because it shows
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: it's possible. Obviously baseball, it's basically required a top 10
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: payroll to, you know, win the world series since I
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: think like the Marlins in 2003. Um, so this is
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: going to be the first year without that. So that's
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: nice to see, but also like in reality, I know
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: this is kind of a one-off world series, but I
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: will say that the Rays and Brewers have put a
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: lot of work in for a lot of years to
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: get to this point where, um, It's not easy to
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: just be like, oh, yeah, we can just lock, reload,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: ready to go. Like, I look at, like, the junior Caminero.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: They went and scouted him in the Dominican Summer League.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: And they send a lot of boots on the ground scouts,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: which isn't something that really happens much anymore. And so, like,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: they have these massive, massive scouting departments. I think, like,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: the Brewers have, like, 80 scouts or the Rays do.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Just massive departments. And they've built... these teams because of that.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: It's all the scouting that's been going on. You look
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: at the current, like MLB just updated their farm system rankings.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Rays are two, Brewers are three. And it's just like,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: that's after they're calling up guys too. So it's crazy
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: how much they can lock and reload. And it does
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: give me hope, but also you have to realize that
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: these scouts that they have are just so, so, so talented.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And I think the Pirates are trying to replicate that
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: But it just takes years. And, like, the Pirates were
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: so bad at international scouting for so many years, it
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: felt like, where, like, you didn't really see guys make
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: it to the major league level. Like, we saw Esmeralda Valdez,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: who that was one big win. But, like, before him,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to think, like, maybe, like, Rodolfo Castro was, like,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: one of the guys that got called up. Like, it's
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: been pretty light, where then you look at the Brewers and, yeah,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Jackson Churria, Luis Lara.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: You have.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Pena coming up with Jesus Maday, just all these guys
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: that are just these international prospects. And it's just, you
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: can see what they've built and it, it does take
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: that time, but yeah, I think the pirates are at
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: least trying to replicate it. Um, and yeah, we can
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: also talk like the analytics departments that they have as well. Um,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: these are two of the, uh, the biggest analytics departments, uh,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: which not doesn't necessarily mean like looking at stack cast
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: and stuff, but right. It's finding those, like the market inefficiencies.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So like the raise right now are just like a
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: lot of contact limiting strike.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: That's where, yeah, go ahead. Well, that's, I was going
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to say that takes me into like the next point
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: where it's like brewer ball is they talk about it.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: It's just knowing where to find your value, right? Like
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: what Mark mentioned, The Rays throughout the beginning of the
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: season were always known as this like contact team because
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: no one was putting the ball in play. And they're
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: just like, OK, well, it's been a decade now of
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: this three outcome type of baseball. And now it seems
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: like people aren't used to the ball being in play
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: this much. So what if we did? And you look
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: at how they do that. And it's the Brewers, too.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: There was a great thread by J.J. Cooper at the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: start of the postseason from Baseball America explaining why pitchers
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: no longer go deep into games in the playoffs anymore.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: And he was highlighting the 1991 World Series, which is
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: famous for, you know, great pitching battles. There was like
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: a game seven that went into or I believe it
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: was game six or game seven that went like 10
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: or 11 innings and both starters stayed in the whole time.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: It's one of the best baseball games ever played. But
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: he showed the lineups from those games. And when you
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: think of it was the Twins and the Braves, you
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: think of those two teams, you think of the stars
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: on those teams, you think of Kirby Puckett on one side,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: you think of you know, Chipper Jones or Andrew Jones
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: or whoever else on the other side, right? But what
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: you don't realize is back then, those teams, those lineups
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: were top heavy. You had a lot of guys, three,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: four guys in your starting lineup who had less than
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: five home runs, who had, you know, weren't, who didn't
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: hit more than 10 doubles a season. You would have,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: that was your middle infield. It wouldn't be uncommon for
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: your middle infielders to combine for like nine home runs
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: an entire season. That's not the game anymore. So when
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you look at the Brewers as to why they're able
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: to get starters out of the game early, it's because
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: they have one through nine guys who can hit a
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: home run consistently. It doesn't show it in their numbers.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: They're not a ton of 30, 40 home run backs
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: because they have so much depth and they're all matchup based.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: You have guys who can platoon. You have guys who
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: can just play in certain, you know, on the road
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: better or whatever. Like they're, they have so much information
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that allows you to piece together a perfect lineup for
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: every situation. But if you look at their home runs
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: per bats or their OPS per what they're asked to do,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: these guys are far more dangerous. They make a much
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: longer lineup and that is Brewer ball. It's knowing how
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: to construct a perfect team to make a lineup long.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's not just going out and buying Kyle Tucker and
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: paying him $ 60 million a year. because you can, it's
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: knowing that, Hey, we have these guys already who do
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: these things. Well, what do we need and where can
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we get it? And it's like, okay, so we need
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: guys who can, we have speed at the top of
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: our lineup. So if we can find guys who put
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the ball in play at the bottom part of the lineup,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: that can create pressure on the defense. We need guys
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: who are patient in the top order of the lineup.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: So our middle of the lineup can get a big
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: swing and get this going. they just kind of know.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: And that's where research and development happens. People, talk about
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: analytics and all this stuff. And I think analytics has
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: this negative connotation because in a way people will say
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: it made the game boring. But in reality, analytics to
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: me just means more information. And the brewers use this
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: information to attack trends. And Josh, I'll wrap this up
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: and throw it to you real quick. It's just like,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you talk about investing. You got to invest when you're
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: a small market team. And I hate that my camera
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: just did this. You got to invest when you're a
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: small market team, not just in players, but in the
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: people who can identify players and know, Hey, this guy's
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: going to fit here for this reason. And the brewers,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: if you look, They get better as the year progresses,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: almost every single year. That, to me, is the identity
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: of a team that is well-constructed, that the more this
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: organism spends time together, plays together as a collective whole,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: it will grow. And that's a product of research and development.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: That's a good front office. Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: And what you call brewer ball is playing baseball the
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: game the way it's supposed to be played. I believe
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Derek Jeter even said it, you know, highlighting the World Series.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: He said, this is the way the game is supposed
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: to be played. And you're right. Analytics does have a
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: negative connotation with it because people hear analytics. But to
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: your defense, like, yes, analytics is just more information. It's
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: a matter of how you use that information. But when
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: you're talking to Brewers, it was even mentioned on the
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: broadcast yesterday during the game, when these guys get two strikes–
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: They just get to a point to where they just
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: want to put the ball in play. We grew up
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: talking about this game being gay, put, you know, hand-eye coordination,
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: put the ball in play, two strikes, shorten up. Analytics
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: has become so analytic driven that what has become the
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: forefront of analytics is power and output when, you know,
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: that's what's really being driven. But the analytics are showing
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: that when you put the ball in play, you know,
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: things happen it might not be the most sexy thing
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: hitting it at 76 but guess what the situation calls
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: for that 76 mile an hour exit velocity on that
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: nasty pitch to get a guy from first to third
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: and now you got pressure on this pitcher um so
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: seeing it is refreshing because i'm like this is what
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: successful teams do teams that win they situational hit and
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: yes you may be in this analytical driven world when,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just more information, but you know, when
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: you find out that just putting the ball in play,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: you give yourself an opportunity. In high school, my brother
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: used to say it all the time, you know, you
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: put the ball in play, you give yourself a chance.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: And more importantly, you know, as a team in high school,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: we were built on speed. He said, there's no bad
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: hops in the air. Meaning, you know, you're playing on
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: a bad field. You put the ball in play. You
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: don't know what can happen. Pitcher might trip. We saw
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: last night they're playing on a dome, you know, playing
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: on turf in a dome. You know, the game speeds up.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Hamilton goes for a tag that he can't make, throws
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: the ball away. You know, Ortiz, things happen even on
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: good surfaces. But you put the ball in play and
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: you're a team that can, you know, run a little bit.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: it is that much tougher on, I don't care how
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: good of a pitcher you are. If a team is
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: spoiling pitches and making you go deep into your pitch count,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: it makes it that much tougher because these pitchers are
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: having a lot of high stress innings based off of
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: teams just saying, you know what, I'm not going to
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: strike out. I'm going to put the ball in play.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: And the Brewers have identified guys that can do that
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: really well. And as you said, the Pirates seem like
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: they're trying to mimic that and, it's taking time. There's
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: some steps behind, but with the past couple of years
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: trending upwards, hopefully with the identity that they want to create,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: they can now tell these scouts, this is what we're
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: looking for. This is what we need. Now get your
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: boots on the ground, as you said, and, you know,
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: find guys that fit what we're looking for. We're not
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: looking for just a guy that is, you know, as
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: you said, the top prospect, does this guy, you know,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: fit the motive? He can move runners. He can lay
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: bunch down. They're doing all things that, Baseball talked about
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: 30 years ago and now we act like the Brewers
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: reinvented the wheel. No, they just used analytics to show
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: that when used the right way with power and output,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: but put with putting the ball in play and making
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: things interesting, you can have a really good model with
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: people that know how to identify baseball players.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And especially when you blend that with like the culture that,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: both of these.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Clubs have scenario. Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Cause I, you look at the brewers, like how they
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: celebrated with the bottles of champagne with all like the
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: former players.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: Names on it. So cool.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: They've had, I think like five planes that they took
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: to Tampa so that players, their families, all their staff
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: could go to the world series and be a part
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: of that. You know, extending Christian Yelich, a guy who
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: is their captain now, who is a leader, like the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: people of Wisconsin love Christian Yelich. I have a lot
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: of family there. He's almost all of my family members'
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: favorite baseball player. They love, love, love Christian Yelich because
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: he exemplifies that culture. He leads by example. You saw
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: him get benched in this postseason against left-handed pitching. You
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: don't hear him complain about it. He's still being a
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: great teammate. He's showing that they're in it to win.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So I just think the Brewers' culture is– I'm so
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: jealous of that in particular because– I do think that matters.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: You were talking, like you said, Josh, with AJ about
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: how you guys had that culture back in 2013 and 2015.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I think that is so necessary in baseball when it's
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: 162 game season, you're with these guys more than your family.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Having that around you, that winning culture, accountability, whatever you
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: want to call it, it's so important. So I think
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the Brewers are really showing that this postseason.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I just want to make a point here.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: You mentioned the bottles of champagne, the little things they
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: do for family members of the team. Ownership. This was
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: pointed out by Alex Stumpf, my good buddy. He noticed
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: that when the Brewers owner speaks, he ends his press
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: conferences with, Go Brewers. He's seen walking around wearing a
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Brewer's hat and everyone on the Brewers. It's just like
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: you just see them wearing more like team branding and stuff.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: There's just another element of pride that I don't know
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: if it's always been here in Pittsburgh. And I think
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that that starts from the top down. Just hearing your
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: owner say that, I think, as silly as it sounds,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: makes you feel a little bit more invested compared to
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: someone who kind of just shows up when he has
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to show up. And then, I mean, yeah, you talk
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: about culture. I mean, the main culture, I think, it
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: goes to Murph. He's the best manager in the game.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And it goes back to what Josh was saying about
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: the way they play. They are the perfect mix of
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: old school and new school. Murphy could be a manager...
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: in literally any era of baseball, from 1910 to now. Because,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, he just exemplifies what a good coach should be.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: It's having his finger on the pulse of a team. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: he can lay into guys, he can hold people accountable,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: but he can also be like a father to some
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of these guys who are in their early twenties, who
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: are playing in a country far away from where they
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: grew up. He just kind of knows how to pull
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: those strings and he has the veterans respect him. He
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: has the young guys look up to them. And when
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: you have that respect collectively toward your leader, as far
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: as a manager is concerned, it's going to trickle down.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: It's going to lead to more respect for your veterans
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: in the clubhouse. It's going to create just a respectful
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: culture between the front office and the players, which hasn't
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: always existed here. There's a trust that like, Hey, these,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: these we're all, we're all rowing in the same direction here.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's culture. So they nail culture, they nail
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: research and development, they nail scouting and they find really
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: good players. So that's, If the Pirates could just do
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: those things, who knows? I want to make one final
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: point before we wrap this up. Because everyone loves to
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: say that this is an anomaly of a World Series.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: And I guess if you're looking strictly at the finances,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: sure it is, right? You got to have a top
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: 10 payroll, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But these teams
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: being here should not be a surprise to anyone.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: No.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Think of the other teams. Take the Dodgers out of it. Yes,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers are by far the most successful team in
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: baseball over the last decade. And they spend more money
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: than anyone. There is no refuting that. But if you
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: take the Dodgers out of it, The Brewers and the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Rays have had just as much success as the New
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: York Yankees. They've had just as much success as the
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia Phillies, the Atlanta Braves, the Houston Astros. Now, those
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: last two teams, they've won World Series. The Astros have
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: won a couple. And one of these two teams will. But,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, the Brewers, they've been knocking on this door
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: for a while now. They've been winning divisions. They've been
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: going to the NLCS. And they've done it under different regimes.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: If you go back to the last decade, they were
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: winning with council just as much. So they've been good.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: The Rays have been doing this even longer. They've been
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: doing this for almost 20 years now under different managers,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: under different GMs, with whole different rosters. And every now
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and then, yeah, you'll see them take a dip, but
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: they get back really quick. So these aren't just two
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: little underdogs, 16 seeds in March madness who fell ass
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: backwards into a World Series matchup. These are two of
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the best franchises in baseball. I would argue that they
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: are probably number two and three behind the Dodgers. If
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: you just look at overall collective success, maybe you could
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: put Philly, maybe you could put Houston, maybe you could
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: put the Yankees, but they're in that category.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: You know who else I'll put in there? Small Cleveland.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. Cleveland. Exactly. They're all in that tier. So yeah,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: while their payroll looks a little different, these aren't Davids.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: These are Giants. These are the Buffalo Bills to make
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: an NFL con. They haven't got there yet, but boy,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: have they been knocking at the door for a long
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: time now. And it was only a matter of time
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: before that door got kicked in. So yeah, sure, they
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: don't spend a lot of money on players, but this
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: is no fluke of a world series. And to me,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: it's not an anomaly. Some of these teams, the rays
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: have been there before the brewers have been close before.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: It was only a matter of time before one of
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: them got their ring. And it just so happens that
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: one of them's getting their ring against the other. And
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I think the brewers prove that both of these teams
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: are better than the Dodgers this year. So that's all
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I have guys. Any final thoughts before we wrap it up?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: None for me.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: No, I was just going to say you had, Two
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: teams that had the most wins in both leagues. Brewers
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: won the most games the past two years in the
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: National League. So, as you said, it's not a fluke.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: So they're pressing all the right buttons. And with that said,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: make sure you all press the right button to follow
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and submit. You know, we're on our way to 3000.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: So subscribe. And I don't even know. Yeah, we, we
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: do have the, this team store. Uh, Mark got the
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: buckle territory hat on.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: So feel free to go to the buckle team store, uh,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: buckle territory, team store, get some swag.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: And, um, I'll pass it to, you know, Noah and
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Mark for one last thing, but before they do, I'm
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: going to say my one last thing. You see, I'm
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: repping my, my sensei on Mark. I had it on
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: last week too, you know, big upset win over Texas
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: tech number eight, big win. I was in attendance. Let's
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: go bear cats.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: I hate it.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Mark, anything?
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Nope.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Just enjoying the, this world series. It's been a fun one.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Looking forward to that. Hope we get a couple more games.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: So.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, I just want to, like I said,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: hit that subscribe. And thanks for everyone tuning in. As always,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: he's Platinum Key. He's Josh Harrison. I'm Noah Heil signing
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: off saying thanks for tuning in to another episode of
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Bucko Territory presented to you by the Foul Territory Network.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Take care.